Great discussion. I really appreciate how you bring scholarly discourse to the viewing masses and allow us all to benefit from the decades of research these people (yourself included) have conducted on these topics.
Regarding the time to master the sails- it took a TON of time and effort to make a sail in those days- to raise the sheep, shear them, wash and card the wool, spin and weave the wool. Mostly women’s work- but a kind of wealth, too.
Anders Winroth come from Sweden, not from Norway. You hear it, that war he speak English. You thou even hear it, the way Norwiegian and Swedes speak German.❤ Thats a different.
Very interesting talk. The notion of the religious shift being propelled essentially by practicality - whatever the reasons for that may be (political, societal, etc) - reminded me of how the use of the internet has slowly been integrated into every-day life for the sake of practicality. If you were to tell someone in the '70s that your money can be stored in an electronic account on some bank computer server, I imagine they'd be wondering as to how you can be sure that the money is real and what practical purpose it serves when in fact, it pretty much works the same as before the internet existed - only electronically. I know a religious shift is far more complex than that but I thought it would be an interesting comparison
That was very interesting! Going to buy the book, mostly because it's a topic I thought about a lot the past few years. Hope we well see more of Anders :)
I’m imagining Jackson practising some Swedish with Anders as soon as the interview was over..so fun, when you’re interested in languages, to get a chance to travel around locations where people speak the languages you’ve learnt a bit about
@@n0namesowhatblerp362 I know right! I bet he'd love it there, especially the historical aspect of the region. Runes (known as "Dalrunor") were used in Älvdalen until the early 20th century! Crazy! My family comes from Älvdalen :)
One interesting legal stipulation in the old Grágás legal code here in Iceland concerning Christianity is that non-Latin liturgies seem to be specifically allowed for. “If bishops or priests come to this country, who are not versed in the Latin language, whether they are hermskir or girskir, then people are allowed to attend their service if they want to”. So you have maybe Armenian and Greek church rites mixed in with Latin in the early Icelandic Commonwealth. Before the rigid ethnic distinctions permanently set it.
I'm glad to see this along with Timothy Snyder's class The Making of Modern Ukraine course. It's on Yale's channel. He talks about reasons for Christian conversion.
I have not heard of anyone mentioning Sybil before outside my family. My grandfather used to talk about Sybil prophecies all the time. So it was popular way back then, interesting.
I am so completely taken by that notion that the vikings had been old Christians, sort of like they recognized a familiarity or something that may have been taught through perpetuating stories of the gods. I just may go back and make that religious aptitude quiz that I joked about making years ago. I had noticed how many people practice a religion but then live another. The quiz would ask questions then tally up your answers to determine what religion you seem to be. Some might be shocked, others might actually answer in accordance to the dogma they observe. It would be fun to see. Just like all those other "get to know yourself" quizes.
@@beckihayes220 thank you for the encouragement. I will definitely do that. Right now I am working on creating a little study about how humans retain information using two different videos to "instruct" and then a link to a quiz, where a difference can be seen between learning by a story vs. studying notes of written facts. I got thinking about this alot, and I suspect all people will retain more knowledge via story than written facts, but I am curious to see. I have always wanted to create a religion aptitude test, but it always seemed like such a HUGE task, it will take a long time, to even familiarize myself with enough religious practices.
Interesting conversation. I never had much interest in Scandinavian history but I had an errand to run in Copenhagen and used it as an excuse to spend a little over a week between Copenhagen and Malmö and learned more about the area. I have an extended layover in Oslo in October, anyone have any recommendations? I plan to get a meal in the city and sight see but I don't think I have time for a museum or anything to substantial
Dr. Crawford you should give Norsemen a shot. It is basically a parody of the popular TV show "Vikings," which admittedly does at times tend to take itself too seriously.
You're pretty correct about the level of pacifism that Christianity has contained (or not) in the ages past. Religion and faith is a living thing. It will, at one pace or another, adapt with the people and the times it exists in. As you both note in this video, it's important to look at something in the time it's happening, because it's all interconnected. If you look at anything from hundreds of years ago, even just a few decades past, in isolation from the world and times it was happening in, you risk simplifying it to the point of where it can possibly be read in a wholly opposite manner to which it was intended. This was a great video. Thank you!
We do know that Christian evangelists focused hard on converting kings and elites with the explicit idea that they would then impose the new religion on those they ruled.
But if the royalty and elite are Christians, then over time, naturally the rest will tend to follow for the prestige associations - or the implication the Christianity might have added to the power of the elites
OF course the orthodox church was a bigger input than the western that eventually conquered the Scandinavian countries. But we dont hear or read about the orthodox missionaries that surely was brought here and must have existed. So I wonder; is there any way to find more information about the "pre christian age missionaries from the orthodox church" in my country Sweden. OR could it all ve lost in the mist of time? No record surviving, say int Constantinopel a k a Istanbul?
I know this is centuries and hundreds of miles apart, but the mention of the danish “old christians” made me think of Arianism amongst germanic tribes in the western roman Empire area. Which seems to also have been a largely practice and politically based distinction from Roman Catholicism rather than overly theological (in the west at least). So it could be a similar thing of unorthodox practices on the peripheries that embody a sense of fractional autonomy.
Vlad Țepeş was born in 1431 or thereabouts. Also in eastern, central Europe. I'd say his knowledge of vikings would be scant to non-existant. I have never read anything about the impaler to suggest he was influenced by or interested in the northern parts of Europe at all. Quite the opposite, being in constant conflict with the Osmans he was busy looking south. Regarding the vice to the versa, by the 1400's the Scandinavian nations had been christian for centuries (it varies, but roughly since 1100) and were busy fighting each-other and the Hanseatic league. The gruesome news from Valakia (and there were some circulated at the time), did not impact any scandinavian ruler in their policies or decisions in any major way, I think I am safe in saying. Either way, the time of vikings was long gone by then.
You addressed, better-expressed, and extinguished all my comments, and even I say, thankfully, but save for one topic that I think you missed, which you and/or your guest might have discussed to some great merit. This would be Snorri Sturlusson's inclination toward being anti-hagiography, and it's affect, in his recording , the sagas. Is the absence of it there the full width-and-breadth of it, with nothing more to say about it? And also, what of the author's ultimate demise? This may be a hodge-podge, not a timeline, but I believe I'd heard that he was outlawed, and folks came and executed him? I'm getting these two topics from 1-3 sidelong mentions, in the Penguin saga introductions, mostly, if not fully. Are these events causally related to his writing of the sagas, or completely unrelated and due to simply pedestrian issues particular to his personal life?
It sounds as if a lot of conversions took place because people took the idea of God/gods having power over concrete matters seriously. In such a case, one would want to worship the most 'useful' god.
No affiliate link to Dr. Winroth's book? He did say that the fascination with the vikings and that age is because of the great stories, though I know many people who seem fascinated with that period and culture who haven't heard the stories. I myself has a certain fascination with "vikings" well before I ever read a saga, or had even heard of the Prose or Poetic Eddas. For me it was probably related to my love of fantasy role playing games, but I think there is a general fascination with the notion of fearsome, untamed and violent pagans.
The Vikings is 1960's I think with Ernest Borgnine as Ragnar, Tony Curtis and Kurt Douglas. Inspired by Ragnar Lothbrok. They play it straight. The Long Ships has Richard Widmark as Rolf and Sydney Poitier as the Moorish king Almansur. It is 70's maybe and cheesy.
To understand the language choices in the "Island on top of the World", you need to understand the dynamic between Norway and Sweden. We are each others' most beloved adversaries.
I thought they stopped raiding monasteries when they became christian because that's like sacking a church. You don't sack your own religion's holy buildings, and the raids only ever targeted monastaries because they had lots of treasure and were poorly defended (because attacking them was very taboo in the christian world).
Dr Crawford, Beforeigners is not that good of a series, but I think you would have fun watching it! They had top level university scholars work out the dialogue in Old Norse and coach the actors in it, to make it believable. They didn’t want it to sound like someone reading from a book, but rather you should be able to curse, joke, get angry or try to seduce someone, so they had to work a lot on nuances and constract a plausible ”Street Old Norse”, which involves a lot of guesswork, but guided guesswork by linguists. I think you’d get a kick out of it, as well as the growling stone age proto-indoeuropeans. Questionable choice of language here, as stone age Scandinavians probably did not speak an Indoeuropean language, but still a laudable effort of the team behind the series.
@@riddick7082 True, but I was referring to Goths and the like. Arianism spread north during the early days of christianity and and the migrating germanic tribes were, at least officially, christians, but NOT the "correct" kind :)
Regarding that last hot take, the worst Viking movie ever would probably be Pathfinder (2008). It was supposed to be a retelling of the Vinland Sagas and a remake of the original Pathfinder (Veiviseren, 1987), but it was awful. I recommend the original Veiviseren for a very good Sami film.
Worst Viking film of all time.... I've seen *The Vikings* (1958) with Ernest Borgnine, Kirk Douglas and Tony Curtis. I thought for a moment that was the one Anders Winroth was talking about, but that was *The Long Ships* (1964) with Richard Widmark and Sidney Poitier. *The Island at the Top of the World* (1974) is a lost world fantasy adventur set in the early 20th century.
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Great discussion. I really appreciate how you bring scholarly discourse to the viewing masses and allow us all to benefit from the decades of research these people (yourself included) have conducted on these topics.
Excellent interview and conversation! Now, to get, and read, another book. :-)
What an erudite and charming interviewee. Thank you Dr Crawford for inviting Dr Winroth.
Thank you for suggesting Dr Winroth's book The Age of the Vikings. Got it, read it and found it rivetting.
Thanks for the good conversation.
Regarding the time to master the sails- it took a TON of time and effort to make a sail in those days- to raise the sheep, shear them, wash and card the wool, spin and weave the wool. Mostly women’s work- but a kind of wealth, too.
Oh my goodness, one of my absolute favorite and fascinating interviews you've done.
Tack!
The way Dr. Winroth pronounce "Christianity" sounds very posh english. Love that.
Anders Winroth come from Sweden, not from Norway. You hear it, that war he speak English. You thou even hear it, the way Norwiegian and Swedes speak German.❤ Thats a different.
I just finished this book a few weeks ago so seeing this is awesome!
Wow this is so cool! I'm currently reading this book!
I learned some very interesting things and thoroughly enjoyed this conversation--but I am an old academic nerd, so take that as you will.
My professor! Good stuff. His book is great.
Very interesting talk. The notion of the religious shift being propelled essentially by practicality - whatever the reasons for that may be (political, societal, etc) - reminded me of how the use of the internet has slowly been integrated into every-day life for the sake of practicality. If you were to tell someone in the '70s that your money can be stored in an electronic account on some bank computer server, I imagine they'd be wondering as to how you can be sure that the money is real and what practical purpose it serves when in fact, it pretty much works the same as before the internet existed - only electronically. I know a religious shift is far more complex than that but I thought it would be an interesting comparison
That was very interesting!
Going to buy the book, mostly because it's a topic I thought about a lot the past few years. Hope we well see more of Anders :)
Generally, I love this channel, partly because of its fascinating content, and oartly because of the great charm with which it's oresented!
What a lovely man!
I’m imagining Jackson practising some Swedish with Anders as soon as the interview was over..so fun, when you’re interested in languages, to get a chance to travel around locations where people speak the languages you’ve learnt a bit about
It would be cool if he visited Älvdalen or Elfdalia
@@n0namesowhatblerp362 I know right! I bet he'd love it there, especially the historical aspect of the region. Runes (known as "Dalrunor") were used in Älvdalen until the early 20th century! Crazy! My family comes from Älvdalen :)
Historian/specialist humor is understated and hilarious in its geekiness (discussion of movies).
Great stuff, loved this interview. Im very interested in acquiring his books.
Really good interview, thank you.
One interesting legal stipulation in the old Grágás legal code here in Iceland concerning Christianity is that non-Latin liturgies seem to be specifically allowed for.
“If bishops or priests come to this country, who are not versed in the Latin language, whether they are hermskir or girskir, then people are allowed to attend their service if they want to”.
So you have maybe Armenian and Greek church rites mixed in with Latin in the early Icelandic Commonwealth. Before the rigid ethnic distinctions permanently set it.
I'm glad to see this along with Timothy Snyder's class The Making of Modern Ukraine course. It's on Yale's channel. He talks about reasons for Christian conversion.
"they were all very good, but didnt fit what I wanted to say" i like how humble he is!
Great Interview and Awesome 📖 Book🤙🏻Thanks Doc🇺🇸☘️
I have not heard of anyone mentioning Sybil before outside my family. My grandfather used to talk about Sybil prophecies all the time. So it was popular way back then, interesting.
Oh hey I see that guy every week.
Thank you!
Next time you visit Northern Europe try to get in touch with Jeanette Varberg and Neil Price.
and Tineke Looijinga!
I will buy this book now.
Very interesting discussion.
I am so completely taken by that notion that the vikings had been old Christians, sort of like they recognized a familiarity or something that may have been taught through perpetuating stories of the gods. I just may go back and make that religious aptitude quiz that I joked about making years ago.
I had noticed how many people practice a religion but then live another. The quiz would ask questions then tally up your answers to determine what religion you seem to be. Some might be shocked, others might actually answer in accordance to the dogma they observe. It would be fun to see. Just like all those other "get to know yourself" quizes.
Please do Melissa
Think many many people seem to resanat with ancient religions we're finding out more about now
X
( Sorry about spelling )
@@beckihayes220 thank you for the encouragement. I will definitely do that. Right now I am working on creating a little study about how humans retain information using two different videos to "instruct" and then a link to a quiz, where a difference can be seen between learning by a story vs. studying notes of written facts. I got thinking about this alot, and I suspect all people will retain more knowledge via story than written facts, but I am curious to see.
I have always wanted to create a religion aptitude test, but it always seemed like such a HUGE task, it will take a long time, to even familiarize myself with enough religious practices.
Interesting conversation. I never had much interest in Scandinavian history but I had an errand to run in Copenhagen and used it as an excuse to spend a little over a week between Copenhagen and Malmö and learned more about the area. I have an extended layover in Oslo in October, anyone have any recommendations? I plan to get a meal in the city and sight see but I don't think I have time for a museum or anything to substantial
"Kulturhistorisk Museum" is a museum but it is not that big, Can easily see everything within an hour.
Most interesting subject.
Dr. Crawford you should give Norsemen a shot. It is basically a parody of the popular TV show "Vikings," which admittedly does at times tend to take itself too seriously.
Fantastic book!
You're pretty correct about the level of pacifism that Christianity has contained (or not) in the ages past. Religion and faith is a living thing. It will, at one pace or another, adapt with the people and the times it exists in. As you both note in this video, it's important to look at something in the time it's happening, because it's all interconnected. If you look at anything from hundreds of years ago, even just a few decades past, in isolation from the world and times it was happening in, you risk simplifying it to the point of where it can possibly be read in a wholly opposite manner to which it was intended. This was a great video. Thank you!
Great discussion!
Were did you find all the viking to teach?
Jackson. You HAVE to see the "Vikingane" series, or "The Norsemen" as it's called in English.
I do not know if you have but you should make a video of a trip to the Nordic countries. But that's just my opinion I enjoy your videos all the same.
I'm not a patron, but I would throw money to have you two do a watch-along reaction video to the 13th Warrior.
Gosh, I hope you will manage to meet Tineke Looijinga - whether in-person or digital. :)
We do know that Christian evangelists focused hard on converting kings and elites with the explicit idea that they would then impose the new religion on those they ruled.
But most of them did not enforce it on us. And they were cathoöics, not evangelists. That didn't exist back then.
@@josephpercy1558 So how would you define Olaf Tryggvason's actions in the name of Christianity, if not "imposition"?
But if the royalty and elite are Christians, then over time, naturally the rest will tend to follow for the prestige associations - or the implication the Christianity might have added to the power of the elites
OF course the orthodox church was a bigger input than the western that eventually conquered the Scandinavian countries. But we dont hear or read about the orthodox missionaries that surely was brought here and must have existed. So I wonder; is there any way to find more information about the "pre christian age missionaries from the orthodox church" in my country Sweden. OR could it all ve lost in the mist of time? No record surviving, say int Constantinopel a k a Istanbul?
I know this is centuries and hundreds of miles apart, but the mention of the danish “old christians” made me think of Arianism amongst germanic tribes in the western roman Empire area. Which seems to also have been a largely practice and politically based distinction from Roman Catholicism rather than overly theological (in the west at least).
So it could be a similar thing of unorthodox practices on the peripheries that embody a sense of fractional autonomy.
Here's an unusual question, what if any involvement or influence did vikings have on Vlad the impaler, or vice versa?
Vlad Țepeş was born in 1431 or thereabouts. Also in eastern, central Europe. I'd say his knowledge of vikings would be scant to non-existant. I have never read anything about the impaler to suggest he was influenced by or interested in the northern parts of Europe at all. Quite the opposite, being in constant conflict with the Osmans he was busy looking south.
Regarding the vice to the versa, by the 1400's the Scandinavian nations had been christian for centuries (it varies, but roughly since 1100) and were busy fighting each-other and the Hanseatic league. The gruesome news from Valakia (and there were some circulated at the time), did not impact any scandinavian ruler in their policies or decisions in any major way, I think I am safe in saying. Either way, the time of vikings was long gone by then.
You addressed, better-expressed, and extinguished all my comments, and even I say, thankfully, but save for one topic that I think you missed, which you and/or your guest might have discussed to some great merit. This would be Snorri Sturlusson's inclination toward being anti-hagiography, and it's affect, in his recording , the sagas. Is the absence of it there the full width-and-breadth of it, with nothing more to say about it? And also, what of the author's ultimate demise? This may be a hodge-podge, not a timeline, but I believe I'd heard that he was outlawed, and folks came and executed him? I'm getting these two topics from 1-3 sidelong mentions, in the Penguin saga introductions, mostly, if not fully. Are these events causally related to his writing of the sagas, or completely unrelated and due to simply pedestrian issues particular to his personal life?
It sounds as if a lot of conversions took place because people took the idea of God/gods having power over concrete matters seriously. In such a case, one would want to worship the most 'useful' god.
No affiliate link to Dr. Winroth's book? He did say that the fascination with the vikings and that age is because of the great stories, though I know many people who seem fascinated with that period and culture who haven't heard the stories. I myself has a certain fascination with "vikings" well before I ever read a saga, or had even heard of the Prose or Poetic Eddas. For me it was probably related to my love of fantasy role playing games, but I think there is a general fascination with the notion of fearsome, untamed and violent pagans.
Interesting vid.
The Vikings is 1960's I think with Ernest Borgnine as Ragnar, Tony Curtis and Kurt Douglas. Inspired by Ragnar Lothbrok. They play it straight. The Long Ships has Richard Widmark as Rolf and Sydney Poitier as the Moorish king Almansur. It is 70's maybe and cheesy.
To understand the language choices in the "Island on top of the World", you need to understand the dynamic between Norway and Sweden. We are each others' most beloved adversaries.
I thought they stopped raiding monasteries when they became christian because that's like sacking a church. You don't sack your own religion's holy buildings, and the raids only ever targeted monastaries because they had lots of treasure and were poorly defended (because attacking them was very taboo in the christian world).
Dr Crawford, Beforeigners is not that good of a series, but I think you would have fun watching it! They had top level university scholars work out the dialogue in Old Norse and coach the actors in it, to make it believable. They didn’t want it to sound like someone reading from a book, but rather you should be able to curse, joke, get angry or try to seduce someone, so they had to work a lot on nuances and constract a plausible ”Street Old Norse”, which involves a lot of guesswork, but guided guesswork by linguists. I think you’d get a kick out of it, as well as the growling stone age proto-indoeuropeans. Questionable choice of language here, as stone age Scandinavians probably did not speak an Indoeuropean language, but still a laudable effort of the team behind the series.
"I was teaching vikings" - oh come on man, I know underclassmen can be a bit rough but vikings?
You should have seen this lot...
How about Arianism? Perhaps they converted from that to Catholisism? Many Germanic people coming south were following Arian according to the sources.
@@riddick7082 True, but I was referring to Goths and the like. Arianism spread north during the early days of christianity and and the migrating germanic tribes were, at least officially, christians, but NOT the "correct" kind :)
Regarding that last hot take, the worst Viking movie ever would probably be Pathfinder (2008). It was supposed to be a retelling of the Vinland Sagas and a remake of the original Pathfinder (Veiviseren, 1987), but it was awful. I recommend the original Veiviseren for a very good Sami film.
Clearly "Old Christian" refers to a particular sect.
The Norwegian TV show Norsemen is really funny 🤣
👍
Worst Viking film of all time....
I've seen *The Vikings* (1958) with Ernest Borgnine, Kirk Douglas and Tony Curtis. I thought for a moment that was the one Anders Winroth was talking about, but that was *The Long Ships* (1964) with Richard Widmark and Sidney Poitier.
*The Island at the Top of the World* (1974) is a lost world fantasy adventur set in the early 20th century.
Frå vakre Noreg, alt godt!
Can I please have your hat? Like I'll just say it's mine; I won't even take it.
What if I told you that religion is just as much a matter of public display today as it ever was?
Well yes, and also a political statement in many places
🙂
worst "viking" movie is The Norsemen with Lee Majors {6 million dollar man} horned helmets, its sooo bad
Hummm..
Berserkers: Hell's Warrior is a safe bet for the worst viking movie
Norsemen is the best. A modern day Monty Python, if you will