Thursday Tolkien Thoughts: Druedain Statues, the Watchers of Cirith Ungol, and Morgoth’s Ring???
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- Опубликовано: 8 ноя 2024
- A chance (as they say in Middle-earth) series of events led me to speculate on the nature of the two watchers at the gate of the Tower of Cirith Ungol, which I had previously wondered about but never had a good theory for. Hat tips for inspiring this idea go to David Rowe (see his appearance on my channel here: • The Wisdom of J. R. R.... , Emir Ali Demirel (Twitter: / emiralidemirelh ) and @GirlNextGondor (the specific video I referenced is here: • Ancient Migrations in ... .
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My personal headcanon is that the statues are inhabited by malicious spirits (maybe Elves who refused to go to Mandos) via necromancy, similar to the Barrow-wights inhabiting dead bodies of Men (whose spirits have to leave the world upon death).
But your thoughts are very much fitting with the little we know as well.
Always assumed they were Maiar
I had always thought they were enchanted by the Nazgûl, but your idea makes sense. I am a little unsure how conscious a process it would be with the woodwoses. Clearly the Nazgûl had at least some knowledge of Sauron having set much of himself in his ring. When it comes to the druedai statues i feel like it just kind of happened. Thanks.
Yours is the best theory I've ever heard, Geek. Namarie.
This theory of the watchers makes sense to me. As "magic items" I wouldn't have thought they would have awareness and sentience, they would be just an alarm system, but Tolkien's description does imply more, so I had always thought they contained trapped spirits.
But, the One Ring does also seem to have some sort of awareness and at least limited sentience of a sort in order to influence or abandon it's possessor as needed. I had forgotten the story of the Druadan statue, but it would seem to be in some way aware and sentient and linked to its creator. So this idea would seem to fit better with the watchers then I had thought.
And this idea of sentience and awareness in subcreation seems to apply to the original dwarfs as created by Aule. They had enough awareness to act independently and they showed fear when Aule was going to destroy them, which implies self awareness. But they weren't truly alive, independent beings until Eru gave them that gift.
Given this idea that Dwarves first existed in this fashion, I have to wonder why Tolkien didn't use this idea to explain the creation of Orcs, Trolls etc. If they were created by Morgoth in the same fashion as the dwarves then they could still be "alive" while still tied to Morgoth.
It avoids the problem of Morgoth creating true, independent life, which was Eru's power alone. It explains their numbers and power rising with Morgoth's, their reduction in numbers and power when he falls, and by extension if Sauron is tied to Morgoth in some way then the rise and fall of Orcs and other of Morgoth's creatures when Sauron gains power or passes.
As long as Morgoth exists, even trapped beyond the doors of night all of Morgoth's creations could continue to exist, stll "powered" by their tiny individual portions of his essence. I suppose they would be free of Morgoth's control as he us describe as being trapped in a timeless void.
One question that this idea does not address though is the idea of reproduction. Truly alive creatures reproducing creates new life, which is Aule's power alone. But presumably that power is inherited as part of the gift, otherwise Aule would have to be involved in each conception. Any creation of new orcs and the like would then presumably either involve donation of a portion of their share of Morgoth's essence by a parent, or by Morgoth? I don't see how either would work.
This idea also answers the question of the redeemability of Orcs. As they are not truly independent beings with souls of their own they would not be redeemable, their nature would for ever be tied to their creator.
The Dwarves showed fear when Aulë was going to destroy them because Eru Ilúvatar had already transformed them into independent living beings.
They remind me of Door in Elfquest, where an elf is set to that very boring duty as a punishment.
Good thoughts. I have always thought about these statues and how strange they were. Could you do some thinking on eagles and their connection to manwe? Whenever you see eagles in middle earth does it mean the mediated presence of manwe?
Joshua, you are close to 20K subs!😁👍
The Druedain's statues remind me of the Golem from mythology, albeit Golem though awoken by sorcery is empowered by G-d.
Interesting theory. I had though the watchers were most likely Maiar but this explanation strikes me as a better one. My only concern is the same as I had before regarding the Drúedain; namely, how did they do this? It seems like something that would be beyond them.
My theory is that the Drúedan killed all those Orcs, burned the feet of the statue, and put the fire out himself. Thus creating a sense of magic and mystique about the Druedain in the minds of the other peoples of Middle Earth.
Or could it be magic, or is that how all magic works in Middle Earth, via infusion of personal spirit, vitality, or essence? I'm trying to remember how the Dwarves and Ents, or Orcs and Trolls and dragons came to be thinking creatures and if that can help explain. But if it's merely an awareness, then would that mean the swords of Gondolin: Glamdring, Orcrist, and Sting have minds or will due to the ability to be aware of enemies?
To be clear, it's infusion of power; Tolkien was careful to specify that Sauron put power into the Ring. It diminishes the spirit but the spirit itself isn't split. Spirits are Eru's creation and inviolable.
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So if the "power" is completely separate from the ëala/fëa, where does it come from? The hröa? Is it like battery energy?
I think there has to be a way for some of the ëala/fëa to get into the objects or beings it is inhabiting.
These might also be the reason why Watchers directly communicated with flying ringwraith rather than Sauron or nearby orcs when Sam got the best of it with his phile.
I am greatly confused about what part of Sauron was actually in the One Ring. Was it his ëala? Was it some kind of energy (like battery energy) that was separate from his ëala but still invisible and held within his hröa? For example, the One Ring would have 75% of his battery power and his hröa would contain 25% of it.
Sauron does not seem to have been diminished by not having the Ring, yet he must have been. After all, it took him a few thousand years to be reembodied. After he drowned in the sinking of Numenor, it took Sairon less than a thousand years to reembody and start building Barad-dûr.
Sauron is a Maia, so when he takes a physical form, it's a fana, a veil, and not a hroa, a body.
'Power' is simply an English translation of Vala, Divinity; and the Valar are the Powers that were set to govern Arda. Thus the 'Power' of a Ring of Power, a Cormavala, is the Divinity of Sauron, and the temptation of the Rings is for the Children to take up forbidden divinity for themselves, to themselves desire to become gods, and ultimately, to be forced to take Sauron as their god. Therefore Sauron tempted the elves of Eregion by claiming that they could create with his aid a Valinor, a God-land, out of Middle-earth - truthfully although deceptively, since he meant to be their sole and absolute Vala, the only god of a new God-land.
When an Ainu pours part of their being, their eala, into a subcreation, that part of themself is still connected to them - there is no split - but remains contained while the rest of their eala that they have not diffused is free to recover back to its former stature, or to diminish, or to grow beyond what it had been. The recovery of their eala happens by meditation on their Theme, and the more of their eala that an Ainu has to themself, not diffused in other places, the easier is that meditation and the more quickly they are able to recover. When the places that they have poured their divinity into are destroyed (as with a subcreation, a subordinate, or a fana), the part of their eala which was invested there is completely destroyed. Thus when Sauron's fana was destroyed at the end of the Second and Third Ages, it severely weakened him (at the end of the Third Age, unable to hold together his fana without the passive boost to his Power from the One Ring, it weakened him to the point where there was not enough of himself left to meditate upon, and so, he was unable to recover), but he himself was never annihilated.
The eala, the very being, of an Ainu is the same as their Theme, and their Theme is the same as their Power, their Divinity. Sauron's eala is the Theme of technology and magic, and Sauron imparts into the One Ring certain parts of his Themesong, (according to Gandalf, much of his cruelty, malice, and will to dominate all life) via the incantation which was written around it. Sauron of course still possessed these qualities, even after he had poured them into the One Ring, and even without wearing the One Ring - yet wearing it, those qualities were magnified. Even existing on its own, the One Ring was a paramount example of Technology and Magic, and thus, contributed to Sauron's Power passively. When it was destroyed, the greater part of Sauron's Power was destroyed with it, and without that passive boost, he dwindled to irrelevance.
So to your question, the Power in the One Ring is Sauron's Divinity, even the greater part of his divinity, although Sauron remains, as its source, divine himself. Wearing it, he has a greater understanding of himself and is capable of greater feats. Without it, he must work harder to reach that same level, through laborious self-meditation. The Ring echoes Sauron's state, and if Sauron is weak, naturally the Power of the One Ring is relatively lessened, and if Sauron is strong, its Power is relatively swollen.
...I hope that was helpful and not rambly, haha!
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Thank you for your wonderful explanation and all the time you spent typing it. This is the kind of deep dive into the lore that I have been wanting to see on RUclips. Is there any chance that you will start your own Tolkien RUclips channel? 🙏😁
Maybe I am misremembering the story of the Druedain statue, but I thought the Druedain who had made the statue was still alive. It is clear that whatever "possessed" the Gate of the Tower of Cirith Ungol was not walking around in Barad-dûr the whole time. That is why I assume that they are evil spirits that Sauron asked to guard the Gate. I don't know if they are evil Maiar spirits that never took shape in Arda or spirits that are servants of Maiar, as Maiar were servants of Valar. Whatever the case, they are not derived from Eru's children.
The Druedain was still alive but I’m not sure why that’s a problem for my theory.
You have "Morgoth's Ring" in the video title, so I was expecting to hear something about that, how Melkor poured his spirit/power/essence into Arda. I always thought that Morgoth's Ring was Tolkien's way of conveying original sin that permeates mankind.
I was trying to short-hand the concept of pouring oneself into another thing; didn’t have enough characters left in the title for a full explanation. 😂
@@TolkienLorePodcast
That's okay. You can just add it to your 20k subs video Q&A.😅
Maybe the Druedain who made the statue never went away, but instead kept watch and actually did all that stuff himself, even burning the feet of the statue.😂🤣😆 The Man, the Myth, the Statue.
I had a bit of an epiphany while listening to this episode. Tom Bombadil is a Druedain .👋
But Druedain don’t live forever. ;)
A Drúedan?! 🤣😆😂
The Pukel-men sure sound like golems to me. I wonder if that would make the Druedain stand-ins for Jews? (I'm Jewish that'd be fine by me, even cool, but wondering.)
Nah, I think the Pukel-men are fundamentally different than golems, at least based on my limited understanding.
@@TolkienLorePodcast It was the way that they come to life to guard and protect the community at large that caught my attention. Golems are literally empowered by the word of God. It could be argued, maybe, that the only "good" magic men (as opposed to elves) would have access to without any help would be clerical in nature, ie direct from Eru. Another example would be Isildur's Curse of the Dead Men. Anything else would be, as Galadriel put's it, a "deceit of the enemy." I'm suggesting that for the Pukel men to even work at all, Eru has to do something, although even as I say I would have to admit it could be Manwe. But I don't see the Druedain accomplishing this entirely on their own. They invoke, and maybe this takes some skill (like a Talmudically-steeped rabbi), but the power has to come from outside, unlike elves who can draw on their own fea almost endlessly.
That’s certainly an interesting theory. It’s also tough because Tolkien was sketchy and changed his mind on the topic of what kinds of “magic” Men could do.
You can put this in the frame of animistic or totemic religion, found in (heavy quotes) "primitive peoples" in many parts of the world. The Faithful Stone is plainly a totem. The Watchers are the "graven images" of the Second Commandment (Exodus 20:4). Judaeo-Christian scholars have historically been a bit sniffy about such things. I think Tolkien is continuing this tradition in a playful way, imagining a "good" people, the Druedain, who nonetheless fashion idols.