Foundations of Dune
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- Опубликовано: 26 сен 2024
- Another excerpt from my forthcoming main channel video: Dune: A Short Critique.
This section begins by looking at the political philosophy that underpins Isaac Asimov's Foundation series, before contrasting it with Frank Herbert's Dune - which, after all, is a deliberate response to that other science fiction great.
The Full Review: In Progress...
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Just wanna say, I really enjoy these academic reviews. Potshots at bad media is fun, but it's really hard to find anyone who will thoroughly engage with the content and context of a story like this. I hope you will do more.
I agree!!!!
There is a "market demand" for it. Not so long ago his channel was around 1000 subscribers and by sheer fiat of saying the right thing at the right time he found an audience and look where he is now. I must say his success is the quickest such story I've witnessed first hand, but I wonder given how many people desire quick verification of their own biases, right or wrong, rather than an in depth analysis of modern media how much further this channel can grow.
I hope indefinitely but that would go against my assumption that most people are uncultured asses.
Either way it is brilliant we have him
@daviddiggens8841 I love how I'm depth platoon goes . His excerpt on the tragic mythic figure gripped me in a way seldom youtube videos do . I'm actually going back to it, taking notes and treating it as an introduction to the topics he discussed . He's given me plenty to think about and investigate
@@daviddiggens8841 it’s easy to forget there’s a billion viewers on YT.
If even 0.001% of this is interested in that kind of project you want to do, that’s 1 million viewers.
It’s jsut a matter of sticking to it long enough to attract them
if only he didnt speak in the smuggest stuck up way possible
I never finish a Little Platoon video without a refreshed understanding of how little I actually know about the subject of the video.
_I_ never finish a Little Platoon video without mashing the 'J' key to fully absorb what's going on
That part about FDR and the New Deal myth was great
Always good to see anyone addressing that myth
"Surely we're past the idea of wars of religion."
I cracked a rib laughing at that one, that's a good joke 😂
A quote from "God Emperor" that also helps signify Frank Herbert's contrast to Isaac Asimov: "If we deny the need for thought, Moneo, as some do, we lose the powers of reflection; we cannot define what our senses report. If we deny the flesh, we unwheel the vehicle which bears us. But if we deny emotions, we lose all touch with our internal universe."
Sounds deep, but aren't "emotions" also part of "thoughts"? They are created by our brain and follow logical or tribal thinking, socio-genetic constructs, or similar stuff.
@@Albtraum_TDDC I would actually place emotions under "instinct" or "intuition". As someone could have thoughts without emotions as have emotions without any thought. Emotions are not rational, but bodily/(basic)psyche responses. "Thought" itself is sort of too broad and general as a term, it could be considered in different levels as awareness, cognition, reflection or intelligence.
@Albtraum_TDDC I advise you to read Carl Jung but, in short, yes emotions are thoughts.
In fact, emotions follow their own internal logic to make judgements.
@@jacobwiren8142 Jung tended towards contrarianism at times. Though we should be getting our concrete opinions on the human mind from...well, ourselves in the end I think. At the very least not men who've been dead for decades, regardless of their accolades.
@Ki_Adi_Mundi well of course Jung tended to be contrary, HUMANS are contrary. Also, you can ONLY get concrete opinions from yourself, you are the only thing that you know exists!
Rome.. Whigs.. Locke.. Jung.. Asimov…. 36 minutes into a 53 minute video, and we’re only just getting to the first hints of Dune proper. This is exactly what I love about TLP.
This is a strange prelude for Godzilla x Kong...
Kong and Godzilla will rule the earth
Idk they sound like monsters to me
Is Herbert... Kong...?
Hahaha wow, so funny
Shame that Shai Hulud would devour them both and then cleanse the World.
Thank you for your Water. 🧐
Frank Herbert was really quite revolutionary by creating a science fiction setting that is completely devoid of robots, androids or any kind of Ai or thinking machines. They were all destroyed long before the events of the books in the Butlerian Jihad.
Robots were all the rage in sci-fi books and tv and movies. I Robot, forbidden planet, the day the earth stood still etc. everything had to have a robot.
Without robots or AI Frank can tell a story purely about humans. A setting where humans have become so different culturally that they are close to being aliens. And at the same time these human characters from the far future can used be used to tell us about ourselves.
And without any alien civilization.
And that's why many hate the books released by his son.
@@julienbocquet7732in effect the various factions of humanity in the Dune universe serve a similar function that alien civilisations would in other science fiction through allegory. Showing how splintered humanity is and can become therefore highlighting the points Herbert wanted to make much more starkly.
Ballard’s early short sci-fi works established storlyines within the same parameters, but weren’t nearly as significant. or good, imo. (I like his 70’s fwd stuff)
Actually, sci-fi stories that dive deep into robots and androids are about humanity.
One of my favorite parts of RUclips is how hard people will study something, and go on to share their knowledge with the world. You’re a treasure LP!
Not one "WHHHHIIIIIGGGSSSS INNNNN SPAAAAAAACCCEE" What a waste
I thought I was going to get a lesson on the history of Wigs.
Wiiiiiigggggssss in ssssssssppppaaaaccceee!!!
“These are illusions of popular history which successful religion must promote: Evil men never prosper; only the brave deserve the fair; honesty is the best policy; actions speak louder than words; virtue always triumphs; a good deed is its own rewards; any bad human can be reformed; religious talismans protect one from demon possession; only females understand the ancient mysteries; the rich are doomed to unhappiness” - F. Herbert, Children of Dune
This is my fav quote by Herbert and it supports some of the points you've made in your video.
Amazing video! As an avid reader and a fan of Asimov and Herbert, thank you for not dumbing it down and inspiring people to read more.
It may not mean much but I just want to say Platoon how much I appreciate someone doing some actual fucking research and intelligence in this modern churn of sound bites and reactionism. Looking forward to the main video.
Seconded
This video is making my freaking soul swell. What an incredible thing this is. I'm sharing it with my dad and my brother asap.
It was damned good.
Hurray!
Based
The idea that very smart fellas have it all figured out only for some small factor to throw it all into whack feels very poingent today
Yep but it’s certainly the most prominent one. A lot of the “problems” and “solutions” are usually promoted by types that think the greatest achievement you can ever get is a diploma.
@@NathanCassidy721 Solutionism is an infantile disorder imo
What does one of the reasons why the world the world is a mess these days.
Really? Why? I feel like we as a species and probably even more our leaders are getting more and more complacent, sheepish and even dumber straight up.
This is where we get, "Follow the Science, the Science, the Science wherever it may go."
"Foundations" of Dune - there's a double meaning there, bravo
Oh, there's more than two.
I can tell now why the Libertarian and free minded conservatives love warhammer 40K, a world where a science loving genius almost conquered the universe except that he failed to account for the emotions of the his own sons and that thru everything into literal chaos.
I think it is part of why I love the start of foundation.
When all the plans get ruined because they did not account for a individual mutant.
But then, they ruined it in later chapters when we get told the "real foundation" knew about it and it was all planed.
One note I have near the end is that Herbert was subverting the idea of Prescience being a default good, more so that he was subverting the actual assumption that the authorities with prescience would even have the wisdom to deal with the knowledge they were given correctly, because at the end of the books, Leto II realized that yes, the empire NEEDED to crumble for humanity to flourish, and that saving the empire merely doomed it to stagnation.
He's basically taking a jab at Hari Seldon saving the empire with "have you considered that maybe civilizations crumbling is a necessary and important part of human flourishing"?
I don’t care if you are reviewing a movie or not. I would happily listen to you talk about political philosophy for hours on end, typically agreeing with you, occasionally screaming at my phone about how wrong you are about some nitpick or another. thank you for all the excellent material.
As an Oregon native, I'm proud that my state - from the sand dunes to the natives - played such a pivotal role in inspiring Frank Herbert's story. I remember taking trips to the dunes as a kid, and doing mushrooms out by the coast there as a teen. Had no idea I was following in one of my favorite author's footsteps.
I to admire the state of Oregon. Portland, in particular, it serves as a prime example of how not to run a city.
@@Sam-lf3hn The crime rate and homelessness has gotten worse since I was a kid but it's still not nearly as bad as cities in California, the South, Midwest and East Coast. Say what you want but its still a livable city that's attracting people to move there every year... unless your only source of intel is Fox News or conservatives who still remember it from 2020 and haven't visited in years.
@user-rb9mg8om4x I'd rather live somewhere that doesn't promote and encourage anti-American terrorism.
Nice cope, though.
@@Sam-lf3hn Chicago is beyond corrupt, Abraham Lincoln is a fraud.
I was on the fence about investing further into the Duneverse, but this video has convinced me to do so. I appreciate the deep dive into the theme here.
I never thought I'd see such a good breakdown of Whig History in, of all things, what's supposed to be a review of Dune. If you ever want to make the jump from media analysis to pure political analysis, you've got my vote of confidence!
You mean back to pure political analysis? The unfortunate thing is that the political videos were not very popular, hence the swing entirely to pop-culture/media.
platoon is better than most my professors
In some ways I'd prefer it.
@@OsellaSquadraCorse Are you referring to his discussions with Ozkii or some of the early Star Trek Discovery coverage?
I don't recall any videos of his with an emphasis on politics apart from those.
If there's more, I'd be interested, would you be so kind to point them out please?
The siren song of the tyrrant is ways to concentrate power in the state "for the greater good".
"surely we are past the idea wars of religion" what a fascinating statement from Asimov. for such a smart guy, how could he possibly not get the "not everyone agrees with you"? no Isaac. they believe it. its such a remarkably sheltered view.
Man, what would have Atheism++ and that that nonsense have done to that man.
Indeed. He's not wrong, but he's completely unable to comprehend that his reality means he has to deal with a lot of people who won't just fall into line. Which means he's completely ineffectual at actually building the panhumanity he desires. An unfortunate irony.
Asimov was living in a time of deep ideological rather then theological conflcit and a point where religious decline was begining.
His point is not unfounded but he may have overlooked people finding renewed or wholesale different faiths
He meant that we _should_ be past that point, due to our knowledge of how the universe _really_ functions vs how naively it's portrayed in the various religious traditions and therefore how false and human-made those traditions are. He knew that the continued existence of religion was due to people wanting to keep it around as a useful tool, or because they impose their own views on others, by restricting education and access to resources so that people resort to religion as their only available explanatory system or possible means of negotiating control of their future.
Let's be honest, between mutton chops or a full luxurious beard, it was never going to be a hard choice.
Excellent and correct. Many (inexplicably) fail to see the enormous critique in Dune both of power and knowledge, possibly because so many are mired in the Vision of the Anointed and thus seem (to me) to drift in the direction of assuming that Dune represents either that Vision performed “incorrectly” or somehow an image of the opposing future which the Anointed would seek to prevent.
For me, Dune fall into the "predictive programming" approach where in habituate the population into learned helplessness trough media. Contrary to Star Trek, Lord of TR, who displays a positive and empowering message of power to the individual's by taking your destiny in your own hands and having a part to play personally in the grand schemes of things.
in my experience the one major plot point most people fail to appreciate at first is that Paul is not, in fact, an anomaly. Paul is exactly what he was supposed to be, the problem is the people who worked so long and hard to create him just assumed he'd agree with them. They got their Messiah.... problem is the Messiah didn't find them worthy of salvation. They spent an awful lot of time manipulating others and not nearly enough looking at themselves.
Which is basically Herbert's core thesis. There's no easy answer to hard questions like the salvation of the human race. Those who try, though, had best remember that they too are merely human, not above the faults they seek to correct
No matter how much Herbert tried to subvert the hero, people kept loving Paul and then Leto, because they were portrayed as decent human beings, not perfect, but still trying to do good. And that's enough for most people, that's even heroic to a degree.
As for the "whig history" and prescient aristocracy, did he portray Leto God Emperor as evil and his plan as a mistake and a failure? Or was it a good plan that managed to save mankind for ever and ever like a fairy tale?
Even Herbert it seems fell to the allure of the "happy ending" of sorts eventually. This is a trope of being human, us and himself too. We want what we want. Life is imperfect, universe is imperfect but it's all there is and we will struggle in it.
Don't be too hasty to agree too much with Herbert's words and philosophies either, lest you make him your "messiah". They are made up stories, not the perfect ideology. I'm seeing a lot of libertarian fans here, who appear just as dogmatic as the socialists or the conservatives. Perhaps the socialist model is better for humanity (and Earth) than the libertarian one, it's not so easy to judge these things. Maybe take a look at your own biases as well.
This is one of the most fascinating videos I’ve seen this year. Holy cow.
The way you presented this push and pull and discourse between the Whigs and the Libertarians really gave me an aha moment after having pondered on Dostoevsky's works for so long. Dostoevsky characters almost always fall into the "asimov" type vs the "tolkein" type. However, in the hands of Dostoevsky, just like Herbert, the "Asimov" type characters, in theory, are one way, but in reality, become monstrosities (like Paul and Leto). This Dostoevsky quote sums up this unfolding beautifully;
"the science of this world, having united itself into a great force, has, especially in the past century, examined everything heavenly that has been bequeathed to us in sacred books, and, after hard analysis, the learned ones of this world have absolutely nothing left of what was once holy. But they have examined parts and missed the whole, and their blindness is even worthy of wonder. Meanwhile the whole stands before their eyes as immovably as ever, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. Did it not live for nineteen centuries, does it not live even now in the movements of individual souls and in the movements of the popular masses? Even in the movements of the souls of those same all-destroying atheists, it lives, as before, immovably! For those who renounce Christianity and rebel against it are in their essence of the same image of the same Christ, and such they remain, for until now neither their wisdom nor the ardor of their hearts has been able to create another, higher image of man and his dignity than the image shown of old by Christ. And whatever their attempts, the results have been only monstrosities."
That moment when you realize how screwed over Christianity has become in the West
This video really made me think that I should give Dune another chance. I read it a while ago and admittedly I was not too fond of it but then again I have changed a lot from academic to much more practical man just by the reality hitting me in the face and reminding me that I need to get outside and experience the world
the guy mentioned poland i am now satisfied i shal return to my cave and await another episode
Close to 2 hours worth of content shown and it only covers the lead up to what Dune is as a series and why Paul isn't a Hero of the Hero's Journey understanding.
Oh man, we are in for a treat. Truly Platoon, you're giving even Mauler a run for the Long Man title.
My word. That preamble was meaty enough to be a course on its own. As a Brit you have far more depth of knowledge of our political paradigm than most of the political vocal crowd in the USA. We'd be more than happy if you'd join us through a freedom gland replacement surgery, sir.
Probably because yuelicks don’t yet realize that Christianity is being utterly destroyed across the Western Hemisphere.
Europe realizes, but since they have no second amendment they can’t do shit about their government.
That heckler at UCLA is probably of the opinion that Herbert should have not given any villain traits that the heckler finds in themselves...let authors write what they want and then the market or souk decides eh
I do not think it was "just a heckler". That guy, knew when he asked the question, he attacked Herbert.
He asked "why is the token gay character gay and evil", but that question was dishonest.
If the character had just been a token character, then him being gay would not matter.
Making it matter means it is not just a token character.
It was a attack, to claim Frank was a bad human. Mostly to force him to change his stories.
It is what the sjw warriors have been doing the last years, claiming something is bad, so that they will be used as advisors to "make nicer stories". And then they use that position to insert their political views.
And, it did not start with gamergate. These people have been doing this since at least the 1960's.
Probably since before 1920's.
The movie made me want to read the books, so when he started talking spoilers I had to stop the video.
I'll watch LP's Dune videos after I get to the books myself.
I like these essay videos.
Nah. Skip the books. They're not that great. The concept is better than the story. The worldbuilding more interesting than the events of the world.
The Frank Herbert Dune books are great. My favorite scifi series, but I think that you can read the books even with movie/in-depth review spoilers since they both (Lynch and Villeneuve) butcher the details to achieve epic (Lynch) or cinematic (Villeneuve) goals at the expense of sticking to the plot that gave Dune the reputation to make the movies in the first place. Hell, I'd recommend reading the books just to see how much the movies fall painfully short of them.
@@Turd_Rocket Your nickname does you justice, since you have such a pleb opinion.
the first is good, secnd is fine after that is not really worth your time. i never got past the third i cannot even remember if i finished the third. there is something missing in the books its hard to put your finger on they are just not so gripping and a bit shallow.
the problem with Dune is you kind of have to read it at least twice to really get the most out of it. Herbert's not the most polished writer out there and the books lean heavily into the 'opera' side of 'space opera', so you really have to get used to Dune before you can really get the details of Dune.
Not to say they're bad, Dune is my personal favorite novel ever.... but it's an exceptionally deep story packaged in a decidedly oddball way.
I should not be surprised that Platoon has read - and clearly enjoyed - Sowell, but I am nevertheless delighted to learn this fact.
An interesting thing to consider is that supposedly there is no intention of adapting Children of Dune. I do not know what that means for the depiction of the Golden Path and Paul's relationship to it in the next film. Chani leaving does make me worry that the 3rd film is going to diverge far more from the original themes than the first two, and possibly try to give Paul a redemption arc, which would be truly atrocious.
Excerpt from "a short critique".
40 minutes.
Yep. This is what I subbed for.
We get it, Platoon.
C.S. Lewis was an Anarcho-Primitivist
and evil. Those authors falls into the "predictive programming" approach where in habituate the population into learned helplessness trough media. Contrary to Star Trek, Lord of TR, who displays a positive and empowering message of power to the individual's by taking your destiny in your own hands and having a part to play personally in the grand schemes of things.
I’m 18min in, but C.S.Lewis was mentioned somewhere? I thought it was sci fi writers discussed?
@@WongTagCS Lewis did actually write a sci-fi book
@@ThereIsAlwaysaWay2 religious people are always evil tbf
Oh right, Perelandra, but that wasn’t mentioned iirc.
I read all Dune books several times. This grounding in Herberts larger philosophical environment was interesting. I must say though that I find this whole focus some people have on how subversive Dune, especially Dune Messiah, was on the hero journey to miss the larger themes Herbert explored. The subversion is a story gimmick, not the point of the story.
I have come to rather see Dune and Dune Messiah as a classical Greek tragedy: Paul, the one who can see the future, becomes trapped in it and can't, in fact, change it. Him going blind is an echo of Oedipus.
“tolkien got stuckmanized” 😂
This was fantastic, I already knew I loved everything about Herbert, but hearing him speak solidifies his genius in my eye.
As a Pole I love LittlePlatoon metioning 1670 and saying "learn some polish history". God bless you for that.
Yeah, it's really fascinating.
That would also need to be credited to his editor. He's the one that put that in.
I caught that little snippet of The Name of the Rose...and I smiled
Thanks for this, LP. This helps me to articulate and understand better the reasons why I couldn't resonate with "Lord of the rings," or, "Star Wars," but could with, "Dune."
I have to be honest you are probably one of the most unbelievably entertaining people I’ve come across, you make education something truly interesting and enjoyable in a way I could listen to for hours. You sir are a very educational fellow
Okay. I'm only five minutes into a video about Dune, which is produced by an Englishman, and he's already quoted both John Locke and Thomas Sowell.
Sir, well done.
Thank you.
Though I enjoy his work for what it is, Azamov's top-down mentality (wigism) also scares the crap out of me. It also seems outright naive, though I am also a man who works with his hands, who also grew up within the Bush family's universal world vision in the deluded state of madness; good old CA...
dang…. this essay really opened my mind..
Fun fact Asimov has books in every section of the Dewey Decimal System save Philosophy and Psychology
really makes you think
He was a fascinating man.
I legitimately hope people don't see this video and somehow dismiss his contributions because of his political leanings. He was a very intelligent man who had valuable things to say, and there is never a downside to getting contrasting opinions before forming your own.
@@petriew2018 I couldn't agree more. I don't agree with his politics, but he wrote fantastic books. He really did lay the 'foundations' of science fiction. He accurately predicted many technological innovations as well. His books are well worth reading.
Abraham Lincoln began life as an American Whig. He was an avowed statist, and if it weren't for "freeing the slaves" - which he didnt want to do and only mandated in half measures - then he would rightly remembered as America's first tyrant. The man who inherited a secession crisis, not the country's first, and delivered unto us a civil war.
"... What is there about the Israelis and the Palestinians that makes it impossible for them to see each others point of view? There's a difference in religion, yes, but surely we're past wars of religion"!
What is it with this absolute obsession with perspective and optics? It's always just a problem of how you look at things and if you just broaden your horizons all of the worlds problems and conflicts will melt away. Except, they don't.
You know what I heard.....🎵MericA, fuck yeah🎵
Amen for those with the true 'Merican spirit!!
We need a little platoon history channel
Holy fuck, didn't know that Asimov didn't understand how money works. It doesn't just disappear when it's spent on things, it goes into other people's pockets, who then have their own things they need to spend it on.
19:16 some people now would say, rather than what Gibbon affirmed, that Byzantine empire was actually good and really part of the roman empire rather than other "civilization". It was, in fact, a bunker of metaphysical knowledge, survived for many years against invasions, and regained Rome. Here is your second Foundation, Asimov.
And yet it fell too, due to pure hubris. It’s bound to happen to the West eventually.
Disagree with that assessment
Regarding 24:43-26:00
I was about to disagree but then you addressed it in 29:43.❤
I don't think Herbert was repudiating the univeral rightness of moral vision itself but rather the individual's who and attempts by those individuals to place said moral vision onto other people. Since the results of which are in praxis, usually just as if not far more evil.
This would suggest that Herbert and "Dune,"have a moral centre just not one shared by Asimov, Tolkien ect
It's a fake morality, evil always fake good virtue to recommend the abandonment of hope, virtues, and abandoning of our own personal power over our destiny, and the destiny of humanity. Herbert hates humanity, hates humans, he is dangerous. Very much espouse the 1960's cultist of The Club of Rome and the 2024 WEF of today.
@@ThereIsAlwaysaWay2
Disagree, Herbert's view has more hope for humanity than Tolkien or Asimov. Since individual people are the ones to support ourselves.
If anything Asimov's ideas as laid out in this video are more attuned to what the WEF and today's globalist plutocrats want.
Whigs in space🤣. I love it!
Asimov: "Surely we are past the idea of wars of Religion"
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.....HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.
PROUD OREGONIAN HERE! I think the crazy, seemingly nonsensical ending of the Dune series buttresses your thesis that Herbert is subverting the Asimov-progressive sci-fi vision. Two new characters, Daniel and Marty (widely thought to be proxies for Frank and his wife), appear and urge the main characters to garden with them. The End. This clearly seems like a reference to Voltaire's Candide ending, where his protagonist Candide's conclusion to how to live a good, moral life is that we must "tend to our gardens." Voltaire was satirizing the original Optimists, who claimed everything we experience must be good because God wills it. Candide travels the world Forrest Gump-style and sees all kinds of ridiculous suffering that makes the Optimists look real crazy. What to do? Cultivate beautiful and nutritious things in your personal garden.
To me, that Herbert's epic, convoluted, sci-fi political epoch ends this way says it all. We're not ubermensch heroes of progress, we're products of our ecology, culture, ancestry, etc. We should do our best and some of us have a narrow shot to direct civilization, but it's a lot more like diverting a raging river and violence, corruption, and more are inevitable--especially when the system they create spirals out of control. Even when we DO become ultimate forms of ourselves, horrible inhumane things result when we assert our will upon humankind.
Heck, even when they finally turn Arrakis into a green paradise as per the Fremen's deepest desires... it ends up killing most of the worms and ruining their entire culture and ecosystem. They become as soft and decadent and wayward as the empire they conquered. The remaining Fremen clinging onto the old ways in what remains of the desert are quaint curiosities, old fashioned and irrelevant. You better believe if Asimov wrote this story, turning Arrakis green would've simply been a happy ending of scientific triumph.
So what to do? As per the series ending, get in the no ship to as far from the madness as possible and tend to your garden. Sounds pretty Western America libertarian to me.
I had a little bit of a giddy moment when herbert talked about making good sifi by taking what's popular and playing around with and deconstructing it, I've used that technique a few times in some of my writing. Namely what happens to a society when you introduce telepathy, what if AI is not like humans and is actually really dumb and what happens if we discover immortality, though admittedly the answer to all those is usually some flavour of war and societal collapse.
Fun fact, my grandfather used to refer to my uncles as "The Brain Trust" because they had maybe half a brain between all seven of them and he couldn't trust them (my uncles started more than a few fires in their day).
Very well done video, sir! I always enjoy your videos. Dune is one of my favorite book series. I really enjoyed where you took this history. Dune propper vs. Dune Light is a fantastic way to put the reality of the recent films! Well said!
WHOA! Pump the brakes there for just a minute. FDR's "chicken in every pot..." intervention into the great depression EXTENDED the depression, not bring about it's end sooner than it would have normally ended.
I really like the choice of releasing these "short" excerpts prior to the release of the main video. And they've been so good I know I will still listen to the main video in its entirety without skipping what amounts to nearly two hours I first heard in the segments. I think it will likely enhance my appreciation for the longer video because I won't have to pause and rewind the long quotes or definitions. I hope to get more of these researched portions in the reviews that goes deeper than "here's what happened in the movie, this is why I like/dislike it, and here is the thing someone on the project said a year ago that warned us about the final product" type videos most people tend to release. I like that I'm learning things that prompt further consideration after the video is over.
Oh my ... I'm gonna have to watch this many many times ... so much information!
I feel mentally stimulated ! Good job !
If it's all about wigs, why is Vladamir Harkonin bald?
Apparently he needs a wig to cover his baldness...
I cannot applaud you enough for using the word "liberalism" correctly. Excellent historical explanation, said by someone who has spent too much time working on that myself.
“Liberals” aren’t really liberal these days, considering how they treat their voterbase.
I don't think I could handle being Platoon's boyfriend. These Dune review excerpt videos are such massive a tease.
These are some of my favorite videos Little Platoon. The ones where you talk about the politics behind the art that lead into a critic of the art itself. This video is a great example of a more fascinating in depth review that you don't get from other people. The Barbie Movie was another great one, and I love the Stacy Abrams video in Startrek discovery as well. Time and time again, I come back to watch your videos over others, thank you for taking the time to make these.
Was struck at the experiences Herbert especially had before writing. Reminds me of the comments about current Hiollywood writers and how they haven't LIVED any life to be able to think and write about....
I find it funny that Starship Troopers basically refutes Dune and Foundations fairly quickly. The rule of the scientists ended quickly, and was replaced with the rule of the veteran, or to put it more bluntly, the rule of the wise guardians of Plato.
As of current times, I see it as a man running on air, thinking he will keep running forward, so he uses everything at his disposal to maintain his altitude, but his descent is already predestined, and his refusal to go down, simply expands the scope of the destruction to come.
honestly this more or less subtle war of ideas is what made the 'golden age' of scifi what it was, and it's not a bad thing. The post-ww2 political climate made it really hard to openly argue philosophy simply for the sake of philosophy, as you'd quickly be labelled left wing/right wing and had that label used against you like a club (sounds oddly familiar, no?)
So Authors turned to creating fantasy worlds in the far future as an excuse to argue these ideas, usually without the goal of actually silencing each other but just to keep the intellectual discourse alive. Heinlein wasn't trying to 'own' Asimov so much as he was trying to give people a counter point to talk about. The writers wanted to give you something to think about in a world desperately trying to get you to stop asking questions.
personally this is what i find so depressingly lacking in most modern media. Writers trying way to hard to win the argument as opposed to merely start a discussion.
@@petriew2018 I see most major productions seeking to preach over any sort of exploration or discussion. Some of the smaller publications tend to try a discussion or explore ideas that are ignored. However, most simply want a platform by which they are worshiped.
@@petriew2018 it’s a weird form of them arguing poltics but because they wanted people to actually pay attention to it they had to make great stories, characters, and worlds for those ideals to be presented through.
Just some quick notes:
I believe you might be slightly unfamiliar with American democracy and its history. “Whigs were opponents of an overbearing executive branch because it gives too much agency to the people to elect a monarch, they preferred the beauracratic mess of a strong legislative branch.” Ignoring that property qualifications for voting existed until the late 1850s in some states, the executive branch isn’t decided via popular vote and decided by a system to designed prevent that, the electoral college which has de facto acted as a representation of state agency. It also doesn’t make sense that they would support the legislature as we have a bicameral legislature, of which the lower house has the most “direct democracy” in action being Congress. Whigs trying to defang the executive (or the Senate) would be antithetical to their ideology, at least in the premise of your video in the historical context of 1800s United States. Fast forwarding to todays context when you say “they got their wish” and you show politically zany media characters, it’s worth noting that most of the real life equivalents (MTG, Matt Gaetz, Paul Rand, Santos) come from Congress (the more democratically decided house) and are characterized by their anti institutionalism, populism, and blasé attitude towards US political systems.
I could be misunderstanding your point about whiggism and Marxism but I believe both ideologies, at least when they existed together, were “content to sit at the end of history” with whig history setting forth a climb towards progress that ends in a purely scientific (and thus equal) society that would then need to be maintained AND Marxist history describing history as a series of class conflicts ending with a society that equally shares the means of production (and is thus equal) which would then need to be maintained. When you mention the later article which criticizes Clarke wouldn’t that be a more contemporary form of Marxism that includes influences from anarchist thinkers like Bukanin and Krapotkin, and the later post modernist who reject the notion of a structured history with an end.
I love the description of post modernists being the Marxist snake eating its tail (again), and I say this as someone whose personal philosophy squarely lands in post modernism.
Definition of libertarianism as a rejection of all of the things it’s not, I do find funny, especially as a self ascribing member of the “left liberal orthodoxy.” I think the video would greatly benefit from a structured definition of libertarianism as you’re using it, rather than to vague allusions of its connectedness to Dune and Herbert. For me and my understanding of “left liberalism,” societies are made up of various interconnected systems with different working goals and different levels of human input, and that by navigating these systems we can produce from them certain goals is the message of Dune rather than a wholesale rejection of societal systems. Then again it’s very easy to map something we like to ourselves and i acknowledge that blindside.
Also, imo, to describe Herbert (or libertarianism) as Lockian I find even harder to wrap my head around as, at its core, Locke’s philosophy mandated strong systems under human control. This might also come from my wholesale rejection of your notion that “left liberal orthodoxy” comes from scientific whiggism when the effects of French republicanism, big L Liberalism, and post modernism I believe have a far stronger impact. Then again we run into the issue of labels as a whole, as political ideologies are far closer to Wittgensteinian relational definitions rather than Platonic ideals.
Regardless, you have definitely piqued my interest and I look forward to see where you go with this series!
Looking forward to the very brief indeed critique
What got us into the Great Depression: The Fed, fractional reserve banking, and buying stock on credit. What got us out of it: mass industrialisation of WW2 and the civilian marketplace having capital to trade. What did FDR do? Make things worst.
Id love to hear LP do a similarly in depth look at other books and writers. Personally i think his views on Paradise Lost would be fascinating
Kudos for promoting 1670 mate. I never have thought It would be entertaining to somebody outside of PL as it contains a lot of references to some very specific traditions or proverbs.
Gotta mention some actual decent shows when chances arises!
I like your funny words, magic man.
True homies know that Rome actually fell in 1453. Constantinople > Istanbul
Rome fell before the eastern Roman Empire fell later…true homie know it’s all Greek borrowed or stolen
tbf, I was expecting a Greece v Rome analogy with the Seldon scientists representing Plato's guardians and Paul representing Caesar threatening Rome, then assuming the dictatorship.
Nobody is ready to admit that Dune is actually also an Isekai, that is actually valid
Yea, info dump
Even better Asimov!
Typical that an east coaster could only think of two other states - the one they vacation in and the other version of themselves on the left coast.
@@darthlaurel what are you talking about?
@@charlescaine6022 When Asimov was talking about cooperation between all the nations he compared it to the US and when he tried to name states he came up with California and Florida. An example of an east coaster obviously not able to think of a flyover even way back then.
@@darthlaurel ah, I see. You should have posted this complaint on Asimov's post not mine since I didn't talk about any of that.
I actually love it when you talk 18th century philosophy. Honestly, I would very much enjoy you doing more like that, comparing modern vs. old thought with a little platoon flare on it.
2:10 this
this i like.
thank you for that, Eastern Europe History is one of those pages nobody is intrested in.
Basicly people think it is all balkans 24/7
most welcome, more people should learn about eastern European history, as it is genuinely interesting ( the again so is Balkan history, that, you know, doesn't just cover the fall of Yugoslavia) in the meantime, I will keep spamming it to the masses
These are even more interesting than the movie reviews.
This should be placed on your main channel as well. Thank you, dear!
Herbert understands how bad the bureaucratic state is that runs the America federal government.
Ah, the "Mighty British Empire". We still have shooties, darling.
Jesus Christ, is there any research you DON'T DO? Dozens or hundreds of hours later, after examining the basic philosophies of the writers, is there a right way and wrong way? I absolutely cannot wait for the full video breakdown. If the underlying philosophy of the writers, all the characters and set pieces makes a difference to you, this review is fucking gold. Absolutely incredible.
my favorite part of this video is the scaling mispronunciation of the director's last name😂
Is this Dune video gonna allow Platoon to dethrone Mauler of the long man title?
I hope the new Dune movies will inspire people to read the Frank Herbert books. I don't like the new movies because they don't carry the story and the wisdom of Herbert and Dune. Thank you for this video, I hope a lot of people hear your words and Herbert's.
There is another way to see both stories: emerging behaviour or complex systems that can be guided through century long guidance. In effect you can think about it through elimination on the long term of individual differences. In complexity theory the individual nodes don’t matter, only the system itself.
I forgot how magnificent Frank Herbert’s beard was. Should have its own Wikipedia entry.
His books aren’t bad either
Your video essays are enlightening, thanks for the work you put in to them 👍
When youtube first became a thing, I refused to use it cause I thought it was a source for garbage.
More than 10 years later, youtube is invaluable to me, because of the creators on it.
This entire essay is a masterpiece. I cannot properly express how much I love it. It's so well structured, and there is so much information in it.
Stay awesome!
Thank you Ploots, that was fascinating.
There's a lot of really crappy takes being bandied about RUclips since Dune 2 came out. This is genuinely intellectual. It's refreshing
I enjoyed these Dune vids. Thankyou for the work you put into their production :-)
The one thing going through my mind as I watched this is: "Please get to the point....."!
God dam, platoons ability to tow the line between political discourse and insightful media dissections never cease to amaze me. Well done man.
Tolkien was a religious purist, kind of. Well, based on the fact he opposed the switch from Latin to English in Catholic liturgy.
And well, Herbert wasn't exactly subtle in the depiction of mixed religion, to the extent that someone really appreciating religious culture and symbolism may take offense. Because, let's be honest, Dune's mixed religions are presented in the sloppiest way possible, at least at first glance. Literally, just mashing two names together in random combinations is the least creative Herbert has been with his entire work... Buddislam, zennsunism, and the like. Yeah, I'd say weakest point of the entire series - not the meaning behind them, no, just the names themselves.
One quick note *the Butlerian Jihad was against the men who controlled the thinking machines as much as it was against the AI.* The machine overlords were themselves in the service of human masters who were controlling humanity.