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Ibn Khaldun’s Muqaddimah (The Nietzsche Podcast #65)
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- Опубликовано: 22 мар 2023
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From all accounts, Nietzsche did not read nor comment upon the work of Ibn Khaldun, outside of a few remarks from Schopenhauer in one of his essays that Nietzsche might have read. But what we find in his Muqaddimah is a theory of cyclical history, in which many of the key principles of Nietzsche's political philosophy would find agreement. Ibn Khaldun was a historian from North Africa whose work sought to explain why it was that the same pattern seemed to repeat ad infinitum. The Bedouin desert tribes would overwhelm one of the settled cities of the Mediterranean, from time to time, then establish a new city there. For a time, the culture of the new city would be like that of the Bedouins in the desert. But, eventually, a sedentary culture set in, over the course of several generations, and the inhabitants grew complacent, became incompetent, and eventually found themselves overthrown by another desert tribe, and the process would then repeat. In his studies, Khaldun arrives at the concept of asabiya, or the capacity for collective power, which can be very useful for a Nietzschean perspective on social power structures. This concept of asabiya means, literally, 'group feeling', and describes the extent to which the individuals feel themselves to part of a unified, coherent group, and are thus able to act as instruments of the group, and coordinate their actions as a team. Asabiya increases in harsh conditions, and declines in conditions of luxury, and thus the cycle of empires is set into motion - "This is how God proceeds with His creatures."
Just as Nietzsche suggests the idea of all things returning eternally, Khaldun's writing brings this idea into the historical and political sphere. But Ibn Khaldun is significant because he presents this not only as a poetical idea, but as a pattern based on observable facts. There are many, many observations and anecdotes in the Muqaddimah, and we will not be able to cover it all, so we shall focus on the points most relevant to the ideas covered this season. This will be our first journey into a work outside the Western Canon, into one of the most important thinkers of the Near East. Join me in exploring the dynamics of history, as we jump into the basic ideas of the Muqaddimah.
#nietzsche #philosophy #philosophypodcast #historyofphilosophy #ibnkhaldun #muslimphilosophy #arabphilosophy #history #middleeast
As an Arabic speaker, I would translate Asbyeah as 'bond' as the root of the Arabic word ASB=bond, ASbyeah is simple the adjective form of the word.
the expresion 'Asabieh' as used by Ibn khaldon, is a combination of (Nationalism + loyalty + bond) even though nationalism is defined in terms of nations, in the Arabic word it refers to the group of people (tribes or religion or speakers or a language whatever the reason that bound people together and distinguish them from others). so So referring to your example the Mameluke, they had loyalties to their groups as Mamelukes
What makes Ibn Khaldun special is, as opposite to historians up to his time, he was not just a storyteller of the past, that part that recorded his name for glory and made him the founder of Sociology is the introduction to his book, i.e the Mukademah (an Arabic word that means the introduction) , he outlined that studying History made him see patterns that keep repeating,
His analyses were valid up to the age of gunpowder, Where the dynamics of war changed, the game in favor of the sedentary.
It will make things clearer also to note, the Arabic word Bedouins in Arabic means nomads, either Arabs or not. Ibn khaldun was talking about Nomads i.e. Bedouins in General, so he classified the Franks and the Normans and the moguls as Bedouins who rose to prominent at his time.
Also, you need to note the Arabic expression (the will of God) is an expression just like saying (the eternal law, or the nature of things), Arabic lingo is heavily influenced by Islam, so a religious terms are used even when secular meaning is intended. That effect still exists in Arabic language, for example we never say "I will" we usually say "God willing".
Islamic understanding of the absolute will of God is simple, God knows everything, so even though you have the free-will, God already knows your choices. You are free to chose, but he knows your choices beforehand.
Also, God help those who wants to godly, and also help those who want to be not, As a punishment for their conscious choice of ill deeds.
Islam means submission to god, however submission by your own free will to submit to god.
There is also something I feel missing from your understanding of the nomadic life, nomadic people within a tribe have customs, laws and ideas that they adhere to, and within a tribal society there are the nobles and the ignoble, and all is based on your deed, bravery and generosity will make you noble.
When ibn khaldon describe nomads as good in morality he means in basic morality item, do not lie do not cheat to be brave etc.
When he describes the nomads as smart he means they use their brains (glowing brains/lively brains the term he uses in Arabic) as opposite to lazy brain (as human after getting full starts to be lazy) those who do not use their brains.
ibn khaldun reference to bedouins submission to their shaikh is the opposite to how a citizen will submit to a state, the Bedouin submits by his choice out of respect to the shaikh (by the way Shaikh in Arabic literally mean old man, elderly) as opposite to the citizen who is forced to submit to a start and to the law.
When he mentioned that bedouins need a religious leader or a prophet, he was talking about bedouins as different groups of Bedouins coming together (as opposite to the single tribe loyalty).
And of course like if it is an abnormality to discuss an Arab/Muslim scientist, you had to give the introduction that he was knowledgeable in Greek philosophy and Hebrew, just to explain why he knew!.
Arabs called the Greeks the first teachers, giving them the credit. By the time of Ibn khaldon, they long passed what the Greek have achieved, and the Hebrew books were imitation of Arabic knowledge either in science or theology.
Mashallah. Beautifully explained, even to a non Arab Muslim because we don’t speak Arabic.
@@mazscsu Thank You
Thank you for the clarifications. One question if I may. How would gun powder favor sedentary behavior? Gun powder favored attack and punished sedentary behavior, such as hiding in a fort. Am I missing something here? :)
@@alexmarinica5310 Making large guns and huge quantities of gunpowder, arming a large number of people was only possible for the sedentary
@@overmanonfire I'm sorry but how? You would have to employ chemistry, mining, metalurgy, and have a thriving working population to tax in order to finance it all. While city dwellers eventually become sendentary during time of peace, I find it difficult to agree with your assesment that hey were sedentary thus could produce all this weaponry. Are you sure you don't mean stationary? I'm just curious, as I found this particular part of your argument less convincing than the rest :)
Thank you thank you thank you. I’m absolutely loving reading through historians as opposed to philosophers, Thucydides, Mordhau, Machiavelli all have been so much fun. I had experience with Zen philosophers like Ryoken who have a theory of history but hearing it from Westerners is a beautiful breath of fresh air.
Illuminating and fascinating. I assume you know the cyclical theories of history of Vico and Spengler? Spengler's Decline of the West is particularly relevant, because he was directly inspired by Nietzsche and Goethe. (A suggestion: after this series on Nietzsche's antecedents and influences, it would be fascinating to trace those who owe much to him, like Spengler and the psychoanalysts.) I think Ibn Khaldun's observations on Bedouin society are correct. I spent 8 years teaching at colleges in the Emirates. My students' grandparents, and even parents, lived in tents and were incredibly tough. My students all lived in mansions with AC and servants, post-oil. They were far softer, lazier, and more entitled - like spoiled rich kids in the West, in fact, especially the boys. I don't know how long it will last, but I think not more than another couple of generations.
I doubt that with all the new technology being created, I can't predict the future. However, the technology may liberate us, or we may destroy ourselves. I doubt humans will want to go back, especially because no natural group exists to destroy modern society because of how advanced we are in this new cycle of history. No one has been as advanced and interconnected as modern civilization, and I doubt there will ever be a great new war even if Chinese and US propaganda calls for it because we are too informed.
Man your every video is highly valuable treasure
A timely video, رمضان مبارك
Alaikum and Ramadan Mubarak to all who are observing it! 🌙 ✨ 💜
@@sempressfi ❤
Just found you on RUclips. Love the way you speak. Very easy on the ear, and somehow you keep my attention.
Same here, I could listen to him read the phone book. Yet he is a metal performer, go figure.
Thanks for the high quality podcasts. Your analysis is very enjoyable and easy to follow. Your deep voice and fluent speech have a calming effect.
Very interesting!
One can see Frank Herbert must have been heavily influenced by this man's philosophy.
I bless the philosopher and his philosophy. I bless the coming and going of him. May his passing cleanse the world.
@@slappy8941
❤
Dune was inspired by him
@@Abdullah_Khan578 No doubt about it. 👍
"... mistakes we are doomed to repeat..." History and Philosophy are blended in mine eyes. History is best understood by our mistakes.
Unbelievable quality. Keep going.
Contents and voice make listening to these podcasts a pure pleasure.
...Spiritually Moist.
Whatever gets your spirit wet 😆
the metaphor sticks well
So much moisture these days.
"Luxurious foods according to Khaldun that are super moist and soft makes you moist and soft."
Moist food doesn't make people soft, but food that is high in calories and little exercise makes people soft (hence the global obesity epidemic). So while Khaldun wasn't quite right, he was onto something that perfectly describes the sloth of convivence and comfort.
It was meant as a metaphor, why are you even watching philosophy videos if you can't even tell?
@@saadaaqiq7458I did, but I guess from my modern perspective that while Khaldun wasn't quite right, he was onto something that people usually dismiss until it is staring them in the face.
The problem with conservatives of all stripes is that they usually get their moral frameworks from sacred texts written by madmen or delusions of innate superiority rather than making value judgements from scientific observations. Hopefully we'll overcome this madness.
@@saadaaqiq7458it's not a metaphor. It was the medical understanding of the time.
@@deselby9240 No, it was a metaphor. It was not the medical understanding at the time in the arab world.
@@AGamer1177 Actually a poorly functioning insular cortex that cant properly process metaphors leads to genocides and problems on both sides of the political spectrum. Reference Robert Sapolsky on that. It's not just your modern perspective, you didn't consider alternative non-literal meanings. I think you should keep going through this series, probably a lot of other good readings to show that both liberals, neo-liberals, and conservatives dont make judgement calls from scientific observation. They do only in specific domains.
Being attached that strictly to lables is a problem, a genine problem in political sciences and discourse.
Thank you for giving me something to listen early in the morning ❤
This reminds me so much of dune, the ideas and all of it was implemented by herbert for a lot of his philosophy.
I'm understanding better now how people can be in different groups and why- very important 👍
Keep up the great work, kk.
Travis?? From AHS?
Barbarian armies ensure courage and cohesion by brotherhood and leading by example, civilized people do it through discipline and punishment
This is my favorite episode of all time of the NIetzsche podcast so far.
Very well done.
Brilliant!
Ibn Khaldun knew a thing or two, because he'd seen a thing or two.
I like that. Keen observation ❤
Thank you
Very intriguing, thank you sir!
Like others in the comments I’d plug Fate of Empires: Sir John Glubb
And also Immoderate Greatness: William Ophuls 👍🏻
This was a very interesting podcast, as a Muslim who kind of just discovered all this (like, Nietzche, Schopenhauer and the likes) some week or two ago, this was like a roller-coaster of emotions. Been listening to some of the podcast episodes, and this one in particular was quite strikingly fascinating in terms of Nietzchean master-slave morality with a fusion of Ibn Khaldun's own asabiyyah, which I am decently familiar with. Machiavelli, Nietzche and Ibn Khaldun --- you'd think this trio wouldn't work. Anyways, thank you for the podcast, it's always fun learning about new things, a joyous occasion.
Amazing episode as always! Keegan do you have content creators which you admire? Im referring to the topic of philosophy or psychology mostly.
I like David Stewart, author and musician, and although he talks about a variety of topics it’s generally more philosophical than most cultural or art analysis. Tolkien Traditionalist makes some cool philosophical film and literary analysis also. For more Nietzsche content, I occasionally watch Weltgeist, Jonas Ceika and Uberboyo.
@@untimelyreflections Much appreciated!
@@untimelyreflectionsuberboyo, haha. That guy is a talking machine (in a positive way ) 😂
Thanks enjoyed that. The inner nature of the Bedouin is Fitrah. Man’s inner nature that all human kind possesses. In the Muslim, however the natural disposition to be aware of God is found in the heart and perceptually in the horizon; outward nature itself. It is that link with Nietzsche that is so prominent in his writings. I would venture to say, his turning away from Christianity, brought him closer to the nature of Fitrah that is so prominent in Sufi thought and practice. Keep up your insightful works, I truly admire the value you bring to the world of thinking and it’s practice. Peace!
What a fantastic lecture
I listened to you saying Asabiyyah like 100 times, before I finally realized it is عصبيّة and not just a greek or latin word :'D
The double yy here does a lot of the work; it is pronounced more like "bey yah" not like "labia".
Otherwise, love your videos.
Interesting 😊
Can plz post 10 20 min of your podcast
Bro was way ahead of the return to monke meme.
OK so any idea on the best way to act knowing that this is true. Knowing that there are forces being applied on your life based on the place and time you were born what is the best way to retain your vitality? Or should we just give up and let go of the tiller?
The OG "good times make weak men" meme
Sounds very much like, "The rise and fall of empires by Sir John Glubb" with the cycles of civilizations. He touches on a ton of the same talking points. Someone like Oswald Spengler also talks about the sterility of civilized man.
>"When reasons have to be put forward at all in a question of life, life itself has become questionable."
>the sterility of civilized man. This is not something that can be grasped as a plain matter of Causality (as modern science naturally enough has tried to grasp it); it is to be understood as an essentially metaphysical turn towards death. The last man of the world-city no longer wants to live - he may cling to life as an individual, but as a type, as an aggregate, no, for it is a characteristic of this collective existence that it eliminates the terror of death. That which strikes the true peasant with a deep and inexplicable fear, the notion that the family and the name may be extinguished, has now lost its meaning.
> The continuance of the blood-relation in the visible world is no longer a duty of the blood, and the destiny of being the last of the line is no longer felt as a doom. Children do not happen, not because children have become impossible, but principally because intelligence at the peak of intensity can no longer find any reason for their existence. Let the reader try to merge himself in the soul of the peasant. He has sat on his glebe [an alotted parcel of land] from primeval times, or has fastened his clutch in it, to adhere to it with his blood. He is rooted in it as the descendant of his forbears and as the forbear of future descendants. His house, his property, means, here, not the temporary connexion of person and thing for a brief span of years, but an enduring and inward union of eternal land and eternal blood. It is only from this mystical conviction of settlement that the great epochs of the cycle - procreation, birth, and death - derive that metaphysical element of wonder which condenses in the symbolism of custom and religion that all landbound people possess.
>For the "last men" all this is past and gone. Intelligence and sterility are allied in old families, old peoples, and old Cultures, not merely because in each microcosm the overstrained and fettered animal-element is eating up the plant element, but also because the waking-consciousness assumes that being is normally regulated by causality. That which the man of intelligence, most significantly and characteristically, labels as "natural impulse" or "life-force," he not only knows, but also values, causally, giving it the place amongst his other needs that his judgment assigns to it. When the ordinary thought of a highly cultivated people begins to regard "having children" as a question of pro's and con's, the great turning-point has come.
>...And at that point, too, in Buddhist India as in Babylon, in Rome as in our own cities, a man's choice of the woman who is to be, not mother of his children as amongst peasants and primitives, but his own "companion for life," becomes a problem of mentalities. The Ibsen marriage2 appears, the" higher spiritual affinity" in which both parties are "free" - free, that is, as intelligences, free from the plantlike urge of the blood to continue itself, and it becomes possible for a Shaw to say "that unless woman repudiates her womanliness, her duty to her husband, to her children, to society, to the law, and to everyone but herself, she cannot emancipate herself."3 The primary woman, the peasant woman, is mother. The whole vocation towards which she has yearned from childhood is included in that one word. But now emerges the Ibsen woman, the comrade, the heroine of a whole megalopolitan literature from Northern drama to Parisian novel. Instead of children, she has soul-conflicts; marriage is a craft-art for the achievement of "mutual understanding." It is all the same whether the case against children is the American lady's who would not miss a season for anything, or the Parisienne's who fears that her lover would leave her, or an Ibsen heroine's who "belongs to herself" - they all belong to themselves and they are all unfruitful.
>... The father of many children is for the great city a subject for caricature; Ibsen did not fail to note it, and presented it in his Love's Comedy.
>...At this level all Civilizations enter upon a stage, which lasts for centuries, of appalling depopulation. The whole pyramid of cultural man vanishes. It crumbles from the summit, first the world-cities, then the provincial forms, and finally the land itself, whose best blood has incontinently poured into the towns, merely to bolster them up awhile. At the last, only the primitive blood remains, alive, but robbed of its strongest and most promising elements.
Fascinating! Which one are those excerpts from, Glubb or Spengler? Please
Oh I see: the sterility of civilized man. nm
@@noahbrown4388 What I quoted was from Spengler, but I highly recommend Glubb's book (a pdf of his book can easily be found on the google search) since it is much more available to people both in getting it and reading it. Spengler can be exoteric in his writings.
Regarding the issue of God's absolute will and our freedom, We Shia Muslims believe that the truth is something between "free will" and determinism. God owns everything thing that we own, including our power to obey God and to sin. God does not force anyone to do anything but he has given us some of his powers so we could express our true nature and he can take our power from us whenever he wants. So we are free to choose between sinning and obeying God, and we have the means to do so but God maintains absolute control over our abilities. Without his permission nothing happens. A good analogy for this is a Master who has given his slave the freedom to do what the slave wants but the slave is not freed and is not a "free man". Thus the Master is still in full control of the slave's life.
It's a compatibilist take in my eyes (as in God although all-powerful and all knowing allows for free will to exist but at any time can revoke that free will).
Again, as I replied to others above, this makes no sense at all. It’s a complete contradiction which stems from the fact that, as self aware beings, we want to BELIEVE that we are free agents. We are not.
As I asked my dad when I was young: if I were born in India wouldn’t I be a Hindu? Or China a Buddhist?
53:50 is this not basically the basis of some of franz fanon’s writings?
You should read Oswald Spengler. Would love to hear your take.
i agree you can identify as guilt driven culture and pride driven culture
Thank you for this lecture. All of it is very interesting and relevant information. I just want to make a suggestion. Your voice is great and you pronounce everything very clearly. I just find it extremely distracting when you often add the word “right?” during your commentary. At least for me it immediately interrupts the thought process and causes me to lose focus on everything. I understand it could entirely be just my own pet peeve or a disorder or some sort which causes me to be distracted by these space fill words.
Traditional Muslims believe in a balance between determinism and freewill, somewhat compatibilists, the Asharite theologians for instance try to solve the problem by a Theory of Acquisition/Kasb. You are right we don't believe in original sin, rather, this life is a test, and you are free to do good or not, btw incase you do bad, you are not beyond repair, you can ask for forgiveness and then strive to do more good.
@@saimbhat6243 IMO, it is not an effective move to make your case against the axioms of plain logic, it is better to maintain logic while appealing to a resolution we are not aware of that somehow makes the seeming contradiction resolved, because once you give up logic, other things in your belief might start unraveling.
@@saimbhat6243 what!! Alright bro, do whatever you want
@@saimbhat6243 You can't be seriously refuting plain logic and yet write an entire article-like comment expecting us to understand it, don't you know that we understand by logic. "When you refute logic completely, just by a tape and speak no more".
So, what about criminally insane murderers? There is no ‘free will’. We are all subject to the constraints of our dna, culture and upbringing etc etc.
Ironically I think Ibn Khaldun makes this apparent, although on the macro as opposed to the micro. But as above, so below
Love From India....
❤❤❤
How does Ibn Khaldun’s asabiya mesh with Nietzsche’s rejection of nationalism? How is asabiya related to nationalism?
Watching 5:14
So The Fourth Turning meets Dune
i'm spiritually dry i only eat tortilla chips w no dip no salsa no guac no nothing. ppl out here moist eating nachos w sour cream and extra cheese like thats what god wanted foh
The philosophy of Muslim Spain is highly neglected. Thank you for making this video
Oh, , i give up
17:40
25:00
In hindusim history is just a Kal Chakra ( time cycle ) everything has a pattern or from breaking from this kalchakra u need salvation or moksha there 4 yuga u can deep into that
Person who is not able to control their senses are like animals a man who is rapist coz he is not able to control 2 senses in his body 1st skin and 2nd mind
A men must not be coward to run free their sense on world they are cause of all evil
Sense organs or pleasure are not wrong but if they produce wrong karma ( demerit ) then they are intention is imp in a wrong or at least you u know people who live in cities are coward they are antithesis of a man look man of our Himalayan mountain they can carry on any circumstance survive and die with honor will they ( people in cities ) will
The hills are the abode of God where the shiva defeats all the senses become adiyogi ( first yogi)
A yogi is not a timid person nor a weakling if needed violence then violence will happen if there is need for a talk and then talk will happen
U want to see demon see in ur cities fat people they are next to evil they don't have control over their senses a man must eat that is needed for their body anybody who eats just for a taste for tongue he is next to a evil but not evil
Moksha is in the middle not at the extreme
Plz don't get offended and sorry for my language I am just putting once priest told me something brother I am just a agnostic hindu from India not hate for fat people or anyone peace
Bro can you please provide me the references. I want to read some of these texts.
Did hollywood exist those days?
Wait...so Hari Seldon actually existed in reality and he was a muslim?
It wasn't just dialect tho was it. It was a cowards way out tho
First
39:10 Because Allah is above the realm of time and space He doesn’t exist in a chronological sequence of time then his will and free will of Man doesn’t come to into conflict. The will of God as translated into our realm is defined as predetestination but He was always witnessing our actions and choices and Allah wrote it down sometimes Allah causes us to go down a path by leaving us to continue doing the wrong like a man who goes into the future watching his wife commit suicide again infront of his eyes and he has the possibility of divergence by intervening but he chooses not to therefore He has part in the responsibility due to fore knowledge
Live nowhere thewhere neF you guys
Dods hd think you guys live in the dark ages. I reject christian thoughts, but have no issue with other religions or race.
Just nip asda each day, and poor upbringing.
That opening statement perfectly described the life of Donald Trump. Poisoned by luxury
Most of our modern leaders are trust fund babies. I'm 68 and I've never seen such a pathetic group as our western leaders.
Satiety,
Variety.
Society.
○aṣabiyyah
عصبيه
Nervous