G’day Ian, I was an Australian Tank crewman in the 1980’s - 2000’s and carried the F1 as a personal weapon during the early part on my career so I shot many thousands of rounds through it. The odd looking sight arrangement actually works pretty well despite seeming a bit contra to what “should be”. The whole gun points pretty nicely and shoots ok at up to 50m. It,s pretty controllable. I suppose the inline delight adds to that. The ventilation holes in the forestock were a dirt magnet but never affected it’s performance, just the military sense of order. The “free” and lock pins on the trigger group are slotted so that the 9mm cartridge case is the screwdriver. Also the holes on the front barrel locking ring are designed to take the cleaning rod end to unlock the ring. It was perfectly adequate as an SMG but we never loved it Like the I heard the old boys loved the Owen. Thanks for the great video Ian.
G'day Ian, I've gotta agree with Tim. I'm ex-RAN from the 1980's. We would use the F1 mainly on boarding parties. She was a pretty good weapon to shoot and having the sights offset to the right wasn't really an issue, and yes I'm right handed. Over years I would've put a couple of thousand rounds down range and I kinda liked the staged trigger setup. And yes, you talk to the older diggers and they absolutely loved the Owen. Some of the blokes I know who served in Viet Nam were kinda pissed off when their Owens were taken away from them. I enjoy your vids, keep up the good work. And try to get onto the range with an Owen, see what you think. I've had the opportunity to fire a couple of mags with one and she's pretty good.
I wish we could have SMGs, but no, we only got a FN version of Hi Power pistol and 1 folding stock AKM from who knows where, even though we were the first to try the new PKM wells and I think they were phasing out the AKMs, but I bet if that there was a crisis we would be given the AKMs too. (2S1 Gvozdika driver from Finland)
@@TheLazyFinn The folding stock ones very well could be the ones Finland bought from East Germany after they reunified, if they have a wire like buttstock and dark finish on the metal its probably one of those.
I was on range staff at the Williamstown Rifle Range (Melbourne, remember that?) 25 meter range running squads through on the F1 and 9mm SLP (Browning High Power). The Captain was a very good shooter with the SLR (FAL) but while having 'yippee shoots' between squads I realised that he was woeful with the 9mm weapons. I said to him 'Sir, if you ever find yourself in a desperate situation with a 9 mm weapon, save the last two rounds for yourself.' 'Why two rounds?' 'One for range and one for effect.'. He pondered this momentarily and then replied 'Corporal Smith, go and get f***ed.'
I remember the Williamstown range! I also remember lying prone, waiting to start a serial...so I started scraping at the the ground and dug up an old Martini Henry .450 case. I didn't tell the range officer (maybe it was you?)....
@@daviddou1408 i know the difference, one has full auto and semi (FAL), the other is semi only (L1A1 or SLR). Also what original post as no one mentioned FAL or L1A1.
Talking to a former ADF solider I know, apparently what your supposed to do is 'tilt the weapon to the side, so when your lying down flat you don't need to pick the weapon all the way up'. Same applied to the Owen Gun I believe.
@@lava2istrue Getting your legs blown off by a mine is also kinda dumb. Being forced into a situation where you have to hit the deck is extremely dumb. The Owen and the F1 are both extremely comfortable subguns to shoot from prone when cantered off as described. It lets you keep your head closer to the ground without having to worry about the weird profile of the pistol grip and stock elevating you above the scrub.
@@lava2istrue Actually, soldiers may very well need to shoot while prone; if they're caught out in the open without any cover, /literally/ the only thing they can do to save themselves from enemy fire is to dive for the ground and stay there to minimise their profile. In such a situation, being able to shoot effectively without raising your gun very far off the ground would actually be quite valuable. It makes even more sense when you think about the terrain that you're dealing with across most of Australia: very flat, very wide-open, with very little cover. Soldiers fighting on such terrain would spend most of their time shooting while prone.
Holy shit, probably the only gun in the world which I've fired and that Ian hasn't . With the sight high on the right side it's quite natural feeling (for right handers) to shoot, with the gun angled slightly to the left of vertical, and peripheral vision is improved over Owen's low left sights. In basic training (mid 80's) our instructor told us, The guard in front of the ejection port, was to prevent the shooters little finger straying into the port and causing the weapon to misfire because of all the flesh and bone stuck all over the bolt face
We were taught to keep our hands well away from the ejection port, Because is you cradled the gun with your hand under the port, the face of the bolt would take a sliver of flesh off. We didn't use the much as the SLR was the main battle rifle and the F1 was for cooks and officers. Neither did any fighting so the F1 was adequate. A bit like the Webley in WW1
And yea, Gun Jesus did bless his antipodean disciples with many useful lessons about their sacred heritage. And they did gather around him, saying: "Fuckin' sweet mate. Onya."
sixstringedthing, prior to his departure he endowed his down under disciples with these sacred words, “FUCK OFF CUNTS”, go now my disciples, spread the word of the lord and Gun Jesus.
Book of Armaments, Chapter 12, verses 1-3: "And the Aussies did gather, ready to hear the teachings of Gun Jesus. He stood upon a flat stone, raised His hands, and did say unto them, 'Slough off your Owens, your Austens, and your F1's. See the new day that has dawned, put down your L1 with them. Take up new arms in the F88: it shall lead you away from SMG's that bring tribulations upon you.' And the Aussies did cheer, and they drank beer in celebration, shouting, 'Bloody ripper!'"
offsetting the sights to the right keeps it away from your web gear, especially that front sight that would be trying to catch of web gear like crazy if held slung against the chest or back
I'd think it has more to do with firing from behind cover & not obstructing the sight picture, but both are valid. There's also some ergonomics in the distance between the butt and sight axis, which'd explain why it'd be uncomfortable to fire left handed.
You also use the gun tilted about 15-30 deg ccw. The position comes naturally as you lean over the gun. That's a more natural position for your right hand. If the sights were on the left you'd have to hold the gun weirdly away from your body off near your head.
how about it being more convenient, in times gone by, because of the right hand side of the brim of the slouch hat fitting more neatly over the gun body? the hat was useful because it shaded the shooter's eyes.
Just gotta say, thanks for all the videos on Australian guns you've uploaded recently. I really appreciate in the depth look on my country's very small weapon manufacturing history.
@@MrLes964 I'm not talking years, I'm talking quantity. Again, like I said before. Compared to the rest of the world, the number of guns we have designed and put into military use is fairly small compared to other countries. And no we haven't been making military guns for 100 years. as far as I know our first military gun designed, developed and put into use here in Australia was the Owen in 1942.
For a first attempt the Owen nailed it. Exactly the right gun for the time , quirky and Aussie enough for a needed morale booster. I am sure the people involved in production felt great about providing the boys with the Owen.
I first used the F1 in the mid-70s, when I was an impressionable 17 year old. The stand-up feature of it, in my opinion anyway, was its ease of use. I remember being at the Land Warfare Centre, Canungra, and receiving the following firing order from the Range Sergeant: 'Enemy in the open, 50 metres... throw rocks, it's more effective'.
Fire for effect I think they called :-D Truth was, as a former section forward scout (late 70's) - I once asked the CSM what I was supposed to aim at with the F1 - being ex-Vietnam, he said you weren't expected to hit anything with it - basically it was a shoot and scoot weapon. If you ever got into an unexpected contact as a Scout, just spray in the general direction of the bad guys and run like f*ck. Good advice. Sights were a luxury.
At Portsea (1971) I did a pop up walk through and the Sergeants told me I had 20+ hits from a 33 round magazine. Rocks indeed. Never used it in anger (didn't graduate) but I loved the weapon. Light, noisy, stacked with rounds with a solid don't argue effect.
The 9th one built in 1973 definitely. The first 2 digits were always the year built and the serial numbers were restarted every year. Same on the SLR's.
The F1 was a good SMG. Good magazine, nice shooting, plenty reliable. Ian was just disappointed it wasn't as good as an Owen gun. But barely any SMGs were as good as an Owen.
G'day Ian , as a ex Australian Infantry soldier and having used both the Owen gun and the F1 smg , Nearly every grunt who ever used the Owen and the F1 , would pick the Owen gun over the F1 , the F1 had some problems and was never really liked by grunts , And as you said they were very quickly replaced in Vietnam by the M 16
For the benefit of readers who have not seen combat, if you are firing from the hip or standing and aiming you have either been caught in someone else's ambush or you are going door to door in a village etc. Australia likes to engage the enemy from an ambush position, we assess the enemy's movements and then we set up a kill-zone a K-Z where we can control not only the contact but also the area that the enemy can retire to, this area we usually loaded with Claymore mines. The F1, while woefully underpowered when compared to my beloved L1A1 SLR is a brilliant way to fill a trail with angry little 9mm pieces of jacketed lead. The right side of the receiver sight is where your right eye goes instinctively as your head goes over the tube, remember this is a very flat weapon. One more point about the bottom of the weapon extraction, you don't get a fountain of brass showing exactly where you are firing from, you can also drop your brass into your hat and take it out of the bush with you, as they say, when in the bush "take nothing but lives and leave nothing but a rare footprint" you can't help but leave a footprint sometimes unless you are wearing a gadicha (featherfoot) over your combat boots.. The F1 is a brilliant SMG, from the same stable as the Owen and a heck of a lot easier to carry in a tight vehicle like an APC or a chopper as it has far fewer edges to catch and that rear sight, it is far more robust than you are giving it credit for.
I once fired 20 mags through an F1. Not one stoppage until the 20th mag. It finally jammed when the carbon build up around the chamber would not let the round in. A very reliable weapon. Not powerful but I never had one jam on me in many years of use even when dirty. Certainly as good as the Stirling, better than the MP40, sten etc
Ian Happy memories... As a signaller in the 70s it was the weapon I was issued. I never saw combat but there were many many combat vets and I can relate what I was told to me (please note I am relating things learned in the school of hard knocks, NOT the training manual) nominal magazine capacity of 32, never put more than 20-25 rds in, notorious jamming. A consistent comment was bullets lacked penetration at ranges greater than 30 metres. A friend had tried shooting a fleeing enemy at 30-35 metres. The rounds shredded the enemy’s shirt but failed to stop the person running away. When putting a magazine in, striking with heel of your hand to ensure it had engaged was recommended. Why? Because having a magazine jump 3-5 metres vertically when you try shooting someone can be embarrassing. No info on sight offset: in reality I don’t know anyone who actually used them (damage to rear sight didn’t usually occur because they were not brought up to be damaged) The weapon’s designation could cause problems if you didn’t pay attention. The Australian Army had an F1 sub machine gun, an F1 radio set and an F1 six wheel drive truck. Thanks again for the nostalgia Kind regards from Oz Mark
Truth was, as a former section forward scout (late 70's) - I once asked the CSM what I was supposed to aim at with the F1 - being ex-Vietnam, he said you weren't expected to hit anything with it - basically it was a shoot and scoot weapon. If you ever got into an unexpected contact as a Scout, just spray in the general direction of the bad guys and run like f*ck. Good advice. Sights were a luxury.
Hi Ian the bottom of the magazine was use as the screw driver for the trigger assembly pins. The sights were put on the right side to stop fowling on webbing. F1 was mainly used by armoured (Tank and APCs ) pers. and transport. As was instructed many moons ago. "This weapon is great for putting hot brass on your boots." The butt plate and butt came from L1A1 and shaped. The pistol grip trigger guard trigger also. even the bayonet boss came from the L1A1. Guess it was the cheapest way to make a submachinegun The AD stands for Australian Defence and starts with the year of manufacture and the weapon serial number. As same as the L1A1. I have a scanned copy of the F1 Training Manual if you are interested in a copy. Keep up the great work. Cheers.
As a young Navy Sparker, I carried one in Boarding Parties in the late-80s and early-90s along with the hefty Thomson TRC-300 radio that justified it's issue. It was usually strapped up tight across my chest but the top-mounted slings did allow for the whole weapon to be slung horizontally to the right at my waist and controlled with one hand while using the radio's handset in the left hand. Curiously, when the F1 went away, we largely reverted to going armed with a Browning High Power and ASP baton.
In the early seventies, when I was only seventeen, we were taught to shoot them from the hip and not use the sights. We mainly used them on a 25m and 50m range. They weren’t considered very effective at 50 metres +. My old pay book shows me as qualifying as a 1st Class shot with them.
Mate, much as I love the F1 chunkachunka, you really don't want to shoot an Emu with anything 9mm. You'll just piss it off. And the only thing worse than a fucking Emu is a pissed off Emu. Now the SLR is a different matter entirely. Damn near anything that walks will no longer be bothering you after you put a couple of 7.62 NATO rounds into it. (Always double-tap. If it's not worth shooting twice, it's not worth shootin')
Used the old F1 quite a.lot, including in international military shooting comps. The controls fall nicely to hand especially the mag palm release. I never had an issue with the folding rear sight and it does actually line up nicely. The only issue I ever had was spent cart cases going down my sleeve Love the channel mate👍 🤣
During my service, the F1 was well regarded. In bursts it was accurate to C.50m but had a tendency to climb beyond target after 5 rounds. Never saw or heard of the flip up rear sight ever being damaged.....ever. As a right handed shooter, the offset sights seemed very natural. It was the 'lefties' who actually complained. I never saw one misfire either.
With it tilted because of sights i can understand how easy it is to change mag if you keep your right hand on the pistol grip and change it with your left.
@@Syncrusan I never had an instructor ever tell me about the 'tilting' either. It may have been something that certain grunts personally got used to, not part of the training manual though lol
I remember it took a bit of effort to keep on target. I really do not recall using the sights after leaving Kapooka, but the sights took no more that 2 range practices to become accustomed to them. Never heard of tilting it, but then again I was never issued one of these. Tilting the weapon at a range may have attracted some unwanted attention but in the field you do what you have to. Very good video :-) Thank you.
I was a Australian reservist in the early 80s (RAEME at Bulimba Barracks in Brisbane). If I remember correctly the butt stock held a basic cleaning kit. Very short training course compared to the SLR and only limited range time on the pistol range. Easy and quite fun to fire, and slanting the gun to the right and firing from the hip helped keep the gun on target when firing short bursts.
When I went through recruit training , I was taught . That it was offset to the right , so your left hand could grab, release and change mags , whilst your right hand , right eye stayed lined up on the target . The hand you used to change mags , never obstructed your line of sight .That seemed to work well . Never really liked the weapon , pistol was better or the SLR . Was good for what it was intended for thou. Also the shooting prone , was also very useful . Saved you having to stick your head up and over the weapon and making yourself a giant target .
big dog it’s so sad to hear that they keep on clamping down on anything to do with firearms needlessly just to please people that don’t like firearms. Our gun laws makes me feel like we are not a truly free people.
Ah memories, thanks Ian for shownig a weapon I ACTUALLY used in my time in the Australian Army, (69-78) I also used the SLR, quite a lot, but this little baby was a fun weapon to fire, 9mm and not a lot of range, max 200 meters in a good day, but good for close work. It had it's pro's and con's like all weapons, but if you wanna put a lot of lead in the way this'll do. Easy to strip and clean, and not a lot of complicated working parts, easy enough for a grunt to understand.
Eh, as mentioned elsewhere, you mostly didn't bother with the sights unless you were trying to be extra clever. Point towards t'other guy and pull the trigger. They'll take a few rounds and have a bit of a lie down to rethink the idea or they'll get the hint and go be somewhere that doesn't have bits of lead heading their way. Either way, she's apples!
As an infantryman we were taught to strip, assemble the weapon and did a few live fire exercises but it never featured in any company or regimental exercises. In relation to the sites I don't actually remember using them. When training it was close quarter fire and movement.
@@arkie14 Yeah, there's a Melbourne in Florida...but they pronounce it differently. They say "Mel-born", and as a Sydneysider, I've always said something between "Mel-burn" and a simple "Melb'n."
Ex Australian ammunition technical officer here...correct on the serial number, the AD is manufacturing location, year of make, and consecutive gun. The weapon was designed with close in melee in mind, and the standard butt was actually longer than the one pictured here. The Australian 9mm round was a standard overload, giving it 1400fps at the muzzle, a real man stopper for 9mm rounds. We had a range accident once with a 9mm browning pistol, where the round passed through a guy's chest through both sides of the rib cage, and ploughed through another shooter's upper thigh. It made the F1 climb a bit in firing, but rounds on target would have been pretty lethal.
Recently watched the very good movie "Danger Close". The one thing that I noticed the Aussies weren't using F1 but Owen Guns. I can only assume F1 hadn't reached the fellows at Long Tang. Danger Close finally acknowledging the ANZAC involvement in Vietnam on the big screen.
g'Day Ian great video. The reason for the" left handed" sight on the Owen is that a " right handed" sight could get caught in your webbing. The Owen was a gem to use. Especially in the jungle where you couldn't see much further than 20 feet. You often heard your target before you saw it. Long range high powered weapons where far more difficult because of their size. Also an Owen could spray an area. One didn't need to ,but it was nice to know you could.
It allows you to keep a solid purchase on the gun. If the sights were on the left you would be holding the gun farther away from your center in order to see the sights, with them on the right you can tilt the gun slightly and roll your cheek over the stock to see them. This brings the gun closer to center. Honestly doubt they used these sights as more than reference points anyway. EDIT: Scratch that, go to Lithgow and find out. We'd love to see it.
I found it pretty accurate on the mechanical (pop-up) range. In the RAE our officers and NCO's and drivers usually carried it but it was good for building clearance, less likely to knock your mate 2 rooms away like an SLR.
The front sight was from a Bren gun. The holes in the magazine housing was so you could align it left or right. If you needed to change the elevation, you knocked out the blade completely and put a new one in
I was at the Lithgow museum last month and thought it was fantastic, especially for being entirely volunteer run with a shoestring budget. There is also a great handgun collection there full of rarities that I now recognise thanks to this channel. The factory these days is a shadow of its former self but the volunteers are collecting equipment from the disused parts of the factory in the hopes of one day having a pre-WWII manufacturing equipment display open to the public. However, if you ask, they'll take you through it no problems. We'd love to have you come and check out Lithgow. Despite the internet telling you that everything will kill you in Australia, we're a pretty welcoming lot.
I was lucky to fire one early in my army days. The reason the sight is offset to the right is when you are laying in the prone position you tilt the F1 to the left so the expended brass flies off to the right and not straight down where it can bounce back in your face.
The position of the sight for right handers allowed parallel between the eyes to centre the sight picture. That was the reason given to me both by my grandfather (WW2 Owen gun) and my old WO2 from specialist weapons training at the school of infantry back in the late 70's.
I’ve always thought it was a bug that when you change fire modes on the F1 in RS2 there was no animation or noise like every other gun in the game. But then I found out it had a progressive trigger very cool.
I remember using the F1 submachine gun, but I found that the gun used to pull to the left when we were firing full burst, & the rear sight being on the side, was often a problem, but it was easy to pull apart & clean the weapon, but I am glad that we got rid of it.
Nice vid as always, I'm ex infantry and used the F1 in the 80's. I found it an enjoyable weapon to use. We were trained to shoot from the hip with the weapon, using the flip up site was a rarity. There was a trick to shooting it with an overhand grip over the top of the barrel to stop it from kicking up. Unfortunately I never had the privilege of using the Owen, but my father used both and preferred the Owen.
There are plenty of comments in the thread but I'll add in that I too have carried the Owen and F1 and the sights being on the right worked very well and were not in any way awkward and didn't require you to tilt the weapon. The F1 didn't have the balance of the Owen, which made it very awkward to handle. Liked the Owen, was annoyed at the F1, loathed the M16 , found true love with the F88
This was the personal weapon I was sometimes stuck with in the late 1980's as a combat engineer out on exercises. The first time I fired it on a 25m range at a 3/4 silhouette target, out of 28 rounds in the magazine, only 5 hit when emptying the entire mag on auto... and I was NOT the worst marksman in my squadron. I remember it being referred to as 'the jelly bean chucker'. Much preferred the L1A1 and loved the F88 later on, and did not regret the passing of the F1.
Ares here as well..(1981-90) we were told by an NCO I remember that their were stories that the F1 bullets would just "bounce" off of enemy at distances more than 50 metres and so was only really good at close range anyway, yep fun to shoot on the range!
I fired one at Puckapunyal in '86. We were told to fire from the hip, I couldn't hit anything with it. Far more proficient with the SLR. I'm impressed Ian would even know about the Lithgow manufacturing facility. Maybe the war memorial in Canberra would have information on why the sights were positioned as they are.
I know it well. Driving M113's for 6 years the F1 was part and parcel. Actually fun to fire. Tough little bugger too. The rear sight isn't as flimsy as you think and on the range I had no problem using the sights and I'm right handed. I think the position of the sights cater to a normal tilt to the left you get when actually using the sights. In regard to the Owen vs the F1. The Owen is a combat SMG. I know the F1 is as well but it was really only used to get you out of trouble. Something for the crews to have if they had to bail. Unless you were at the range doing your yearly competency on the F1 you wouldn't really use the sights anyway. If the enemy were that close for the 9mm to be effective you'd just have to point and fire.
Oh my, the memories of 'playing' with one of these. Much nicer to lug about than the SLR which was only just nicer to lug around than the AR (automatic version of the SLR). I loved firing these things when we had the chance (all on the range--including the sneaker range which was especially fun). No very accurate over about 50m, but with enough rounds heading towards that pop-up target on the sneaker, you could land a couple of hits that would have been hurty in the least. Targets sometimes popped up at less than 25m on the sneaker and you could often get all rounds into it knocking it over. I won a shooting trophy (SMG) with one of these. The sight was never an issue and to be honest, I don't recall anyone complaining about it in the least, other than overall that the weapon was never accurate enough for many who preferred the SLR for accuracy over distances. C/mon. Cleaning? Apart from those cooling holes in the barrel jacket (that loved to collect and protect dirt and dust by just walking outside with it), these were so easy to clean and maintain in the field. The pistol assembly pins were designed thus that a multitude of implements could be used to undo them ranging from an empty 9mm cartridge, the knife or spoon from your KFS set, a coin, a tool on you utility penknife (I forget the actual designation of the 'penknife'), even a flattened beer bottle lid or a can tab, to an actual screwdriver. Tes, a fun weapon to fire, though I used to prefer the SLR.
Knife, Pocket, Clasp? I remember them giving us a lesson at Kapooka on the correct way of slitting your wrist with them so we wouldn't bother the RI's with bullshit minor wounds.
I was instructing a female soldier on the F1 on the 30 meter range. Like all of its breed it fired a burst to the right and upwards. Shit was trumps as a round must have struck something as it riccosheyed 180 degrees and landed right between my opened feet
Simple manufacture, sturdy and reliable. Truly remarkable when fired from the hip, excellent accuracy and grouping and you rarely have to walk it far to get on target. Our Steyr AUG has a progressive trigger mechanism as well.
Only problem is the New South Wales Government is planning to permanently de-activate every firearm in the museum by welding etc. to comply with new laws. First time I have every heard an American on RUclips pronounce Lithgow properly. Ian has been corrected in the past and has taken note.
I'm flashing back to the 70's with this video. Tank drivers and loader/operators carried these and gunners and crew commanders carried 9mm's. My Troop Sergeant, a Korean war veteran, wasn't impressed with it. He much preferred the Owen Gun. This weapon was always referred to as "the SMG" rather than F1 because at the time, there were three pieces of equipment in use all designated F1. One was a truck, the second, this SMG and I can't remember the third. The truck continued to be called F1 and with alternate names for this SMG and whatever the other piece of equipment was. All useful, but not interchangeable. :P
was very comfortable to carry use and tough weapon never had problem with the rear sight in my 20 of years of use. Having the mag on the top let you get closer to mother earth on the two way firing range . Unlike SMG’s with long bottom loading mags hey it worked . Both with the F! and its dad the Owen.
hi. i was an australian AFV crewman in the 70s. F1 was my personal weapon .vast majority of the time that i used this weapon was in instinctive mode ,from the hip. rear sight was never an issue. was easy to use easy to clean and easy to stow also use to carry 9mm browning in shoulder holster until the powers that be got all precious about it and had a hissy fit. was never issued a bayonet for mine .
Never had a problem with the off set sights, while it had a tendency to start climbing after roughly five-six rounds, used the sling to control the burst better and it was easier to carry in the confined spaces onboard ship then the SLR (L1A1)
Infantry units normally had a few of these in the armoury up until the early 90s that were dragged out a couple of times a year for a shoot at the 25m range but were replaced by the shortened Australian Steyr in the early 90s. You are right Ian, they were an ordinary weapon, but not bad. No one ever went out of their way to shoot them, unlike the Owens, Brens and even Vickers guns that some units still had hoarded in armouries up until the early 90s.
This was my personal weapon for 16 years, it was a heap of crap, wouldn’t take it to war, although it was fun to shoot. Never had a problem aiming it, the offset sight wasn’t a problem, it was also good for single shots.
At least you go something with range as an Combat Arms Instructor my Duty Weapon was a 38 special revolver and later the M9 (Berettta 92) pistol and if we went on alert I also got a Remington 12 gauge Shotgun.
Just a hypothesis on the positioning of the sites: 1) having to roll your head over the stock, this would increase your contact surface (cheek/neck). 2) tilting the gun would mean that brass would be ejected away from your feet when walking. Both reasons are in two very different ways of firing the gun. 1 is trying to use the gun for accuracy. 2 is more up close full Auto fire. Again just a hypothesis.
Yeah. I was a crewman in an Australian AFV in the Light Horse back in the 80s. I used to carry an F-gun as my personal bundoo when operating around the vehicle. I loved the thing. Always fired, rugged AF, utterly unbreakable. So easy to maintain.
Back in the 70's everyone enjoyed going Gangsta on the range with the F1, just fun to fire, hated single shots , you would have to check your fall of shot to make sure you fired a single, that big heavy bolt recoiling made it feel like you fired a burst. At this time many of the Troops were Vietnam Vets & none of them liked the F1 as a Combat weapon due too the fact it was a 9mm & lacked the firepower, they preferred any Variant of the M16, especially lead scouts & sigs. Best times with the F1 was walking the Sneaker ranges. Thanks for the Vid, you brought up lots of good memories.
My guess on orientation is that it is not meant to be held in the vertical orientation, it is meant to be rotated about 15 degrees so the rear sight is vertical... When deciding gun rotation, rotation 15 degrees counter-clockwise is much easier for right-handers, and rotation clockwise just feels weird and awkward... That small of a rotation doesn't harm gun handling, and actually solves some issues...
This weapon brings back a lot of memories! I fired this weapon a few times in 1973 at the Army base and the training area we did exercises in at the time. The tinny rear sight looked cheap and fragile but it was fun to use and shot quite well.
As unlikely as it is that you'll get to use on of these on a range, Ian. It was still great to see a little Downunder colour on your show. If...and it will be a big if, you ever get to do a post WW2 Sub-Machine Gun Match? I would hope the F1 gets a chance against the Stirling, MAT49 and UZI.🇦🇺
Training and weapons handling discipline made rear sight damage surprisingly rare. The short butt made the right side mounting of the sight favourable as you tended to hug the gun and this made it extremely accurate to 100 metres.
My grandfather said they put the sights to the right as they figured most people where right eye dominant so t was easier to use with a top magazine. He also said there was a plan for an f1 shot gun.
The reason the Australians offset their sights to the right is because North and South are reversed in Australia, and if you rotate the compass you'll see that East and West, and thus right and left, also switch, therefore the majority of Australians are actually left-handed, at least in the Southern Hemisphere.
Used these in the army reserve in Townsville in the early eighties, at no stage in training did we use the sites or on a normal range, it was always through a fake jungle/bush trail with pop ups that came up between 2 and 10 metres away (instructor walking behind you activated them), where you were directed to fire as quickly as possible from the waist on instinct. Great fun, and I don't remember anyone complaining about the gun, I thought it was ideal for that sort of scenario.
@10:30 the right biased sight is more comfortable for right handed shooter if you roll your elbow out (to the right) it improves sight and shoulder comfort, especially when laying prone.
Thanks for covering some of our Australian guns, Ian. But re. the sights; these were never intended for sniping, and in fact, in the jungle of Vietnam where these guns were used, it was mostly close range "point and shoot", so you never even had time to lift that silly aperture sight. I always thought it could have used a horizontal front grip to the left side to keep one's fingers away from the ejection port, but admittedly that would have made the gun more awkward for radio operators and tankers and the like to whom these guns were issued. Really appreciate your channel! Cheers from South Australia.
Hi Ian I used these until they were phased out. The sights were offset so you could use the palm of the left hand to depress the mag release to remove the mag while keeping the master hand on the pistol grip to keep control of the weapon. Sights to the left would have interfered with this. No manual of arms for this weapon said that you should roll the gun to the left in order to aim as this would mean the gun would not be seated in the shoulder. The sights were only really used for semi auto fire at ranges over 25 m as we were taught to fire instinctively and in auto you don’t really have much of a sight picture. The other reason for sight on the right was that they don’t snag on your webbing. Just remembered that we don’t call it a bayonet lug or latch ,it’s a boss at the front and standard at the rear that you lock to. I believe these terms originate from UK
Regardless of how good of a smg this is, at the time it came out it was really at the tail end of smgs as really significant in warfare anyways. Even the best smg is going to be a hard sell vs. a short-barreled AR, within the same roles.
I used the F1 a bit while in the Army Reserve during the early 80s. They are fairly accurate out to about 30 metres and I think they taught their maximum effective range was around 100 metres. One of my instructors was a Viet Vet. His story was they didn't have a lot of stopping power and the bullets bounced off the VC raincoats at 100 metres in the rain. I had a lot of fun with them on sneaker ranges where you walked down a trail with an instructor 2 feet behind you and shot at pop-up targets. They were great fun to fire and very reliable, but we never took them out on exercises because there weren't any blanks for them. If you were lefthanded like me, you were taught to fire these righthanded. The issue was hot cases would eject down through the split in your sleeve if you tried firing them lefthanded. They taught us to fire mainly from the hip; you aimed to your left of the target because they rode up and across the chest. When you put a few mags through them the handguard got a bit warm.
ive heard that in jungle patrols they ended up folding the rear sight and just aiming with the front sight, since the distance was pretty close between them and the enemy (also how much accurate shots you expect from an open bolt smg anyway)
Thanks Ian. I was Assault Trooper and driver, mid-late 80’s. Fun to shoot. Never tried anything but 25m range and never used the sights or the progressive trigger. Short bursts placed an entire mag into a figure 11 target with no worries. Mag dump sprayed all over. I still have calluses from reloading. Pain in the behind to carry when on exercise as the mag always managed to bang into some part of the M113 on de-bus.
WRT why the sights are on the right: This is a guess, mind you. I never saw anything official. But did you notice where the magazine release is? if you mounted the sights on the left you’d get the tang of the mag release in your sight picture. And the constraint of requiring the mags to be compatible with the Sterling means you can’t relocate the mag release. Anecdote: Back in 75, the training base at RAAF Wagga Wagga had a sectioned off F1 barrel with three bullets lodged in it. With a simple blowback action, if you get a projectile stuck in the barrel, you’ll continue firing and lodging more lead in the barrel until you let go the trigger. No dangerous back pressure as it will vent out the non locked breach. But the firing rate accelerates. I’m told the firer got one helluva surprise before he could release the trigger though.
No, Owens were wartime manufacture at a fast rate by previously inexperienced machinists. There were large tolerance discreapancies across the inventory meaning that many parts were not interchangeable.
the military did not want to adopt the Owen gun in the first place but the govt forced them to give it a fair shot. it outperformed the other SMG's and it was accepted. infantry really loved it but the higher ups wanted to replace it with their own gun as soon as possible because salt. they couldn't just have a factory mass produce it so things would go smoother and have it be interchangeable and modded for ease of use and upgrading. no they make a slightly downgraded gun to replace it.
@@aaronleverton4221 They were worn out by '73 and needed to be replaced. But from seeing the vid on the Owen and then this - yeah, just make new, improved Owens, with proper manufacturing and proper tolerances, and Sterling mags. From the look of the Owens, how much cheaper could the F1 have been? Saved a couple of bucks and lost the great reliability of the isolated recoil spring.
It used to richochet off everything it hit because of the low powered round. I am an expert because I used one for many years. Love the clip. Cheers mate!
I had the opportunity to use the F1 for 2 weeks in 1983 at the Canungra Jungle Warfare Training Centre when I played the part of forward scout. As a signalmen my unit, the 1st Signal Regiment had to undergo two weeks training every year in Infantry Minor Tactics. This entailed one week of tuition on all of the ranges at Cunungra, including a night shoot, sneaker range, and shooting from trenches under the control of a section commander on various popup targets ranging from about 25 metres to 300+ metres. The second week was spent in the Northern New South Wales highlands which is the closest thing you'll get to jungle in that neck of the woods. I can't say I enjoyed playing the part of forward scout, but the F1 was a bloody fun weapon to lug around for a couple of weeks. I have to add that we also used the F1 during payroll parades where each guard (usually 2) were given about 5 rounds of 9mm ammo that we were were under strict orders to not load into the weapon. We were told to put the bullets into one of our ammo pouches and if someone held up the payroll to simply hand it over to the crooks. As for the ammo, we were told we could throw it at the crooks but under no circumstances could we load the weapons. This was back in the good old days when we were paid in cash.
I wish I can find the source, but I’ve hear that placing the sights on the right mitigates another issue on top mounted magazines and that is that is rotational stability. Having a mass protrude out the point of rotation means that any adjustment pointing the gun will be met with an inertial force wanting to either stop movement or continue movement when adjustment stops. This can make it difficult the handle, especially when the magazine is in an unstable state. Having sight on the right side will insensitive the user to roll the weapon towards them. This would creat and triangle frame with the weapon and right arm being the right side of the triangle and the left arm being the left side. With the weapon rotated left, the left arm will have more control of the inertial forces collected by the magazine. At the same time, the direction of inertial rotation is now only going to occur counter clockwise so it is more predictable.
agbond003 the sight were on the right because Australian manual of arms was to use your left palm to push against the mag release and remove mag. Sights on the left would interfere with this it also prevents the sights from snagging on your webbing, as for the comments I’ve seen on here about rolling the weapon to the left gangsta style not something I was taught when using this gun. The rear sight was only really used if you were trying to shoot semi auto at ranges over 25 m we were taught to shoot instinctive off the hip so no real need to aim just point and spray
stephen callon , agbond003 is correct. The Owen also had sights offset to the right as well but mag release was central. Ie sight offset not due to mag release. Mag release on F1 couldn't be central due to position to fix the ejector to the maghousing/receiver tube. Offset sights to the right allowed the gun to be more central to the shooter- more controllable.
I may have suggested this before, in response to an Owen gun video; I may be wrong but I'll throw it in here for good measure. If a right-eye-dominant right-handed shooter is using a full-size rifle, they'll cant their head to the right to bring their right eye in line with sights that are centred above the bore axis; if the stock is a good fit, they may achieve a 'cheek-weld'. If the same shooter is using a SMG with a rudimentary buttstock and a magazine mounted above the centre of the bore axis, they can do one of two things to get a sight picture: cant their head to the left, away from the weapon, to bring their dominant eye in line with left-mounted sights or take up their normal shooting position while pulling the weapon even more closely into the shoulder to sight down the right side. I'd be interested to know whether there are other SMGs with offset sights or whether the weapons with sights offset to the left were all of a different class. What works for a SMG at the shoulder might not work with a LMG on a bipod, and vice versa.
I was also a tank crewman (Centurions) and fired both the Owen and F1. They were great shooting and I am right handed, by the way they added an additional safety slide that locked the bolt back to stop accidentally discharges!
Retired ADF 77-97. Great weapon for vehicle crews (light and easily stowed). More comforting than a pistol.Never saw damaged sights - though rarely fired using them anyway.Forward Sight is located on right of magazine housing due to Mag release catch on the left.Mag on top worked well for firing in the prone position.Not sure if any bad guys were actually ever tagged by this weapon.
G’day Ian, I was an Australian Tank crewman in the 1980’s - 2000’s and carried the F1 as a personal weapon during the early part on my career so I shot many thousands of rounds through it. The odd looking sight arrangement actually works pretty well despite seeming a bit contra to what “should be”. The whole gun points pretty nicely and shoots ok at up to 50m. It,s pretty controllable. I suppose the inline delight adds to that. The ventilation holes in the forestock were a dirt magnet but never affected it’s performance, just the military sense of order. The “free” and lock pins on the trigger group are slotted so that the 9mm cartridge case is the screwdriver. Also the holes on the front barrel locking ring are designed to take the cleaning rod end to unlock the ring. It was perfectly adequate as an SMG but we never loved it Like the I heard the old boys loved the Owen. Thanks for the great video Ian.
Thanks for this perspective! Cheers from US Navy
G'day Ian, I've gotta agree with Tim. I'm ex-RAN from the 1980's. We would use the F1 mainly on boarding parties. She was a pretty good weapon to shoot and having the sights offset to the right wasn't really an issue, and yes I'm right handed. Over years I would've put a couple of thousand rounds down range and I kinda liked the staged trigger setup. And yes, you talk to the older diggers and they absolutely loved the Owen. Some of the blokes I know who served in Viet Nam were kinda pissed off when their Owens were taken away from them.
I enjoy your vids, keep up the good work.
And try to get onto the range with an Owen, see what you think. I've had the opportunity to fire a couple of mags with one and she's pretty good.
I wish we could have SMGs, but no, we only got a FN version of Hi Power pistol and 1 folding stock AKM from who knows where, even though we were the first to try the new PKM wells and I think they were phasing out the AKMs, but I bet if that there was a crisis we would be given the AKMs too. (2S1 Gvozdika driver from Finland)
@@TheLazyFinn The folding stock ones very well could be the ones Finland bought from East Germany after they reunified, if they have a wire like buttstock and dark finish on the metal its probably one of those.
@UCBfm0b5A4FoX_D5Q-IaU8Lw Germany built its own Ak's including versions with folding stocks, Wiesa and some other companies built them.
In Australia the magazine is on the bottom. Just sayin'.
@@georgecharton7944the joke is everything is upside down in Australia
Made my day, Sir.
Yeah, we all sometimes shoot first then ask questions xD
@@keanur6541 Finns do use it.
@@keanur6541 bro I have RL friends in Europe and they all hear the joke
The AD in the serial number indicates that this is the anno-domini version. The really really old ones were the BC versions.
Thomas Mobley AD is Australian Defence...should have LSAF stamped on it too
@@bigdog4173 You missed the joke!
big dog whoosh
big dog r/whoosh
Thomas Mobley back when Centurion was a rank, and not a tank!
I was on range staff at the Williamstown Rifle Range (Melbourne, remember that?) 25 meter range running squads through on the F1 and 9mm SLP (Browning High Power).
The Captain was a very good shooter with the SLR (FAL) but while having 'yippee shoots' between squads I realised that he was woeful with the 9mm weapons.
I said to him 'Sir, if you ever find yourself in a desperate situation with a 9 mm weapon, save the last two rounds for yourself.'
'Why two rounds?'
'One for range and one for effect.'.
He pondered this momentarily and then replied 'Corporal Smith, go and get f***ed.'
I remember the Williamstown range! I also remember lying prone, waiting to start a serial...so I started scraping at the the ground and dug up an old Martini Henry .450 case. I didn't tell the range officer (maybe it was you?)....
lol
David Dou SLR :)
@@daviddou1408 i know the difference, one has full auto and semi (FAL), the other is semi only (L1A1 or SLR).
Also what original post as no one mentioned FAL or L1A1.
@@daviddou1408 Half a matchstick jammed under the safety sear would make them full auto for a while ;)
Talking to a former ADF solider I know, apparently what your supposed to do is 'tilt the weapon to the side, so when your lying down flat you don't need to pick the weapon all the way up'. Same applied to the Owen Gun I believe.
That sounds useful
Well, if your legs have been cut off. Otherwise it’s kinda dumb
@@lava2istrue Getting your legs blown off by a mine is also kinda dumb. Being forced into a situation where you have to hit the deck is extremely dumb. The Owen and the F1 are both extremely comfortable subguns to shoot from prone when cantered off as described. It lets you keep your head closer to the ground without having to worry about the weird profile of the pistol grip and stock elevating you above the scrub.
@@lava2istrue Actually, soldiers may very well need to shoot while prone; if they're caught out in the open without any cover, /literally/ the only thing they can do to save themselves from enemy fire is to dive for the ground and stay there to minimise their profile. In such a situation, being able to shoot effectively without raising your gun very far off the ground would actually be quite valuable.
It makes even more sense when you think about the terrain that you're dealing with across most of Australia: very flat, very wide-open, with very little cover. Soldiers fighting on such terrain would spend most of their time shooting while prone.
The immediate action is to tilt the gun & check to see if you are out of ammo or jammed.
Ian Burns nice
Holy shit, probably the only gun in the world which I've fired and that Ian hasn't . With the sight high on the right side it's quite natural feeling (for right handers) to shoot, with the gun angled slightly to the left of vertical, and peripheral vision is improved over Owen's low left sights.
In basic training (mid 80's) our instructor told us, The guard in front of the ejection port, was to prevent the shooters little finger straying into the port and causing the weapon to misfire because of all the flesh and bone stuck all over the bolt face
We were taught to keep our hands well away from the ejection port, Because is you cradled the gun with your hand under the port, the face of the bolt would take a sliver of flesh off.
We didn't use the much as the SLR was the main battle rifle and the F1 was for cooks and officers. Neither did any fighting so the F1 was adequate. A bit like the Webley in WW1
@@stevephillips8719 and medics
@@clasdauskas eh?
Oh yes. and medics could carry one, sorry, I'm a medic now so I didn't get the connection.
@@stevephillips8719 :)
And yea, Gun Jesus did bless his antipodean disciples with many useful lessons about their sacred heritage.
And they did gather around him, saying: "Fuckin' sweet mate. Onya."
sixstringedthing, prior to his departure he endowed his down under disciples with these sacred words, “FUCK OFF CUNTS”, go now my disciples, spread the word of the lord and Gun Jesus.
To teach kangaroos how to hold and shoot a gun using their tails as bipods
@@n.a.4292 *monopods
Book of Armaments, Chapter 12, verses 1-3:
"And the Aussies did gather, ready to hear the teachings of Gun Jesus. He stood upon a flat stone, raised His hands, and did say unto them, 'Slough off your Owens, your Austens, and your F1's. See the new day that has dawned, put down your L1 with them. Take up new arms in the F88: it shall lead you away from SMG's that bring tribulations upon you.' And the Aussies did cheer, and they drank beer in celebration, shouting, 'Bloody ripper!'"
sixstringedthing "Fuckin sweet, mate" is more like what a Kiwi would say. Aussie speak is "Fuckin oath, mate".
offsetting the sights to the right keeps it away from your web gear, especially that front sight that would be trying to catch of web gear like crazy if held slung against the chest or back
unless you're a lefty and fucked
I'd think it has more to do with firing from behind cover & not obstructing the sight picture, but both are valid.
There's also some ergonomics in the distance between the butt and sight axis, which'd explain why it'd be uncomfortable to fire left handed.
You also use the gun tilted about 15-30 deg ccw. The position comes naturally as you lean over the gun. That's a more natural position for your right hand.
If the sights were on the left you'd have to hold the gun weirdly away from your body off near your head.
@@ibast1 This is what I was thinking
how about it being more convenient, in times gone by, because of the right hand side of the brim of the slouch hat fitting more neatly over the gun body? the hat was useful because it shaded the shooter's eyes.
Just gotta say, thanks for all the videos on Australian guns you've uploaded recently. I really appreciate in the depth look on my country's very small weapon manufacturing history.
@@petethebastard Compared to the rest of the world, yes we do have a small military weapon manufacturing history.
@@gunsfreak1994 yer just been doing it for 100 years. nothing major
@@MrLes964 I'm not talking years, I'm talking quantity. Again, like I said before. Compared to the rest of the world, the number of guns we have designed and put into military use is fairly small compared to other countries. And no we haven't been making military guns for 100 years. as far as I know our first military gun designed, developed and put into use here in Australia was the Owen in 1942.
For a first attempt the Owen nailed it. Exactly the right gun for the time , quirky and Aussie enough for a needed morale booster. I am sure the people involved in production felt great about providing the boys with the Owen.
@@gunsfreak1994 Probably because we've been cucked by our anti-gun government.
I first used the F1 in the mid-70s, when I was an impressionable 17 year old. The stand-up feature of it, in my opinion anyway, was its ease of use. I remember being at the Land Warfare Centre, Canungra, and receiving the following firing order from the Range Sergeant: 'Enemy in the open, 50 metres... throw rocks, it's more effective'.
Fire for effect I think they called :-D Truth was, as a former section forward scout (late 70's) - I once asked the CSM what I was supposed to aim at with the F1 - being ex-Vietnam, he said you weren't expected to hit anything with it - basically it was a shoot and scoot weapon. If you ever got into an unexpected contact as a Scout, just spray in the general direction of the bad guys and run like f*ck. Good advice. Sights were a luxury.
At Portsea (1971) I did a pop up walk through and the Sergeants told me I had 20+ hits from a 33 round magazine. Rocks indeed. Never used it in anger (didn't graduate) but I loved the weapon. Light, noisy, stacked with rounds with a solid don't argue effect.
Some of those LWC Instructors had a very tenuous grip on reality - and if you were smart you didn't challenge them.
The 9th one built in 1973 definitely. The first 2 digits were always the year built and the serial numbers were restarted every year. Same on the SLR's.
Knowing Aussie workers, that probably means it was produced around April or May.
James Healy very clever you’re obviously a kiwi. Now you’ve had a little joke why don’t you toddle of down to the dole office and have a little rest
@@DeepseaSteve I'm an Aussie, just having a laugh at our own expense, I've spent time working in those factories haha.
@@jameshealy4594 Well, it looks complete, so it wasn't done on a Monday or Friday.
Good sturdy knife, you can attach a poor SMG to it when needed.
You call that a knife?
alahos Well, it ain't a noif for sure.
The handle on the SLR bayonet was far to short to make it an effective knife, unless you had small hands.
The F1 was a good SMG. Good magazine, nice shooting, plenty reliable. Ian was just disappointed it wasn't as good as an Owen gun. But barely any SMGs were as good as an Owen.
@@timblizzard4226 Maybe it just needed a baby poop paint job... :p
G'day Ian , as a ex Australian Infantry soldier and having used both the Owen gun and the F1 smg , Nearly every grunt who ever used the Owen and the F1 , would pick the Owen gun over the F1 , the F1 had some problems and was never really liked by grunts , And as you said they were very quickly replaced in Vietnam by the M 16
For the benefit of readers who have not seen combat, if you are firing from the hip or standing and aiming you have either been caught in someone else's ambush or you are going door to door in a village etc. Australia likes to engage the enemy from an ambush position, we assess the enemy's movements and then we set up a kill-zone a K-Z where we can control not only the contact but also the area that the enemy can retire to, this area we usually loaded with Claymore mines. The F1, while woefully underpowered when compared to my beloved L1A1 SLR is a brilliant way to fill a trail with angry little 9mm pieces of jacketed lead. The right side of the receiver sight is where your right eye goes instinctively as your head goes over the tube, remember this is a very flat weapon. One more point about the bottom of the weapon extraction, you don't get a fountain of brass showing exactly where you are firing from, you can also drop your brass into your hat and take it out of the bush with you, as they say, when in the bush "take nothing but lives and leave nothing but a rare footprint" you can't help but leave a footprint sometimes unless you are wearing a gadicha (featherfoot) over your combat boots..
The F1 is a brilliant SMG, from the same stable as the Owen and a heck of a lot easier to carry in a tight vehicle like an APC or a chopper as it has far fewer edges to catch and that rear sight, it is far more robust than you are giving it credit for.
I once fired 20 mags through an F1. Not one stoppage until the 20th mag. It finally jammed when the carbon build up around the chamber would not let the round in. A very reliable weapon. Not powerful but I never had one jam on me in many years of use even when dirty. Certainly as good as the Stirling, better than the MP40, sten etc
Ian
Happy memories... As a signaller in the 70s it was the weapon I was issued. I never saw combat but there were many many combat vets and I can relate what I was told to me (please note I am relating things learned in the school of hard knocks, NOT the training manual) nominal magazine capacity of 32, never put more than 20-25 rds in, notorious jamming. A consistent comment was bullets lacked penetration at ranges greater than 30 metres. A friend had tried shooting a fleeing enemy at 30-35 metres. The rounds shredded the enemy’s shirt but failed to stop the person running away.
When putting a magazine in, striking with heel of your hand to ensure it had engaged was recommended. Why? Because having a magazine jump 3-5 metres vertically when you try shooting someone can be embarrassing.
No info on sight offset: in reality I don’t know anyone who actually used them (damage to rear sight didn’t usually occur because they were not brought up to be damaged)
The weapon’s designation could cause problems if you didn’t pay attention. The Australian Army had an F1 sub machine gun, an F1 radio set and an F1 six wheel drive truck.
Thanks again for the nostalgia
Kind regards from Oz
Mark
Our instructors (Singleton '71) hated the F1 with a passion. Most of ours jammed.
Truth was, as a former section forward scout (late 70's) - I once asked the CSM what I was supposed to aim at with the F1 - being ex-Vietnam, he said you weren't expected to hit anything with it - basically it was a shoot and scoot weapon. If you ever got into an unexpected contact as a Scout, just spray in the general direction of the bad guys and run like f*ck. Good advice. Sights were a luxury.
Hi Ian the bottom of the magazine was use as the screw driver for the trigger assembly pins. The sights were put on the right side to stop fowling on webbing. F1 was mainly used by armoured (Tank and APCs ) pers. and transport. As was instructed many moons ago. "This weapon is great for putting hot brass on your boots." The butt plate and butt came from L1A1 and shaped. The pistol grip trigger guard trigger also. even the bayonet boss came from the L1A1. Guess it was the cheapest way to make a submachinegun The AD stands for Australian Defence and starts with the year of manufacture and the weapon serial number. As same as the L1A1. I have a scanned copy of the F1 Training Manual if you are interested in a copy. Keep up the great work. Cheers.
As a young Navy Sparker, I carried one in Boarding Parties in the late-80s and early-90s along with the hefty Thomson TRC-300 radio that justified it's issue. It was usually strapped up tight across my chest but the top-mounted slings did allow for the whole weapon to be slung horizontally to the right at my waist and controlled with one hand while using the radio's handset in the left hand. Curiously, when the F1 went away, we largely reverted to going armed with a Browning High Power and ASP baton.
In the early seventies, when I was only seventeen, we were taught to shoot them from the hip and not use the sights. We mainly used them on a 25m and 50m range. They weren’t considered very effective at 50 metres +. My old pay book shows me as qualifying as a 1st Class shot with them.
Mate im loving these uploads of Aussie weapons, cheers!
So glad you did this one Ian.
Watching the AuSten vids the other night and was saying to myself - "I hope he does the F1".
Just in time for the rematch with the emu's.
Don't mention the war!
Mate, much as I love the F1 chunkachunka, you really don't want to shoot an Emu with anything 9mm. You'll just piss it off. And the only thing worse than a fucking Emu is a pissed off Emu.
Now the SLR is a different matter entirely. Damn near anything that walks will no longer be bothering you after you put a couple of 7.62 NATO rounds into it. (Always double-tap. If it's not worth shooting twice, it's not worth shootin')
They shoulda used BREN's- firing Katana's!
....or is that too Lindybeige???
@@bleeksbentbits3150 [Emus grabs his "spandau"]
@@DrBunnyMedicinal chill bruh
Used the old F1 quite a.lot, including in international military shooting comps.
The controls fall nicely to hand especially the mag palm release.
I never had an issue with the folding rear sight and it does actually line up nicely.
The only issue I ever had was spent cart cases going down my sleeve
Love the channel mate👍 🤣
During my service, the F1 was well regarded. In bursts it was accurate to C.50m but had a tendency to climb beyond target after 5 rounds. Never saw or heard of the flip up rear sight ever being damaged.....ever. As a right handed shooter, the offset sights seemed very natural. It was the 'lefties' who actually complained. I never saw one misfire either.
With it tilted because of sights i can understand how easy it is to change mag if you keep your right hand on the pistol grip and change it with your left.
Wimmera Paranormal As a former infantryman trained in the F-1 I agree completely. They were so much fun on the ‘sneaker’ range.
@@Syncrusan I never had an instructor ever tell me about the 'tilting' either. It may have been something that certain grunts personally got used to, not part of the training manual though lol
I remember it took a bit of effort to keep on target. I really do not recall using the sights after leaving Kapooka, but the sights took no more that 2 range practices to become accustomed to them. Never heard of tilting it, but then again I was never issued one of these. Tilting the weapon at a range may have attracted some unwanted attention but in the field you do what you have to. Very good video :-) Thank you.
@@crankyoldcoot7212I used to ram it into my guts and hold it steadily. Unorthodox but it did the trick.
I was a Australian reservist in the early 80s (RAEME at Bulimba Barracks in Brisbane). If I remember correctly the butt stock held a basic cleaning kit. Very short training course compared to the SLR and only limited range time on the pistol range. Easy and quite fun to fire, and slanting the gun to the right and firing from the hip helped keep the gun on target when firing short bursts.
When I went through recruit training , I was taught . That it was offset to the right , so your left hand could grab, release and change mags , whilst your right hand , right eye stayed lined up on the target . The hand you used to change mags , never obstructed your line of sight .That seemed to work well . Never really liked the weapon , pistol was better or the SLR .
Was good for what it was intended for thou.
Also the shooting prone , was also very useful . Saved you having to stick your head up and over the weapon and making yourself a giant target .
I'm loving all these Aussie videos
Yes Ian go to Lithgow! There’s a great Small Arms Museum at the front of the old factory.
Patricio Cordova Might be difficult,TFB went to Lithgow recently,and had restrictions placed on them re photos and weapons handling
big dog it’s so sad to hear that they keep on clamping down on anything to do with firearms needlessly just to please people that don’t like firearms. Our gun laws makes me feel like we are not a truly free people.
Ah memories, thanks Ian for shownig a weapon I ACTUALLY used in my time in the Australian Army, (69-78) I also used the SLR, quite a lot, but this little baby was a fun weapon to fire, 9mm and not a lot of range, max 200 meters in a good day, but good for close work. It had it's pro's and con's like all weapons, but if you wanna put a lot of lead in the way this'll do. Easy to strip and clean, and not a lot of complicated working parts, easy enough for a grunt to understand.
bushranger51 Thank you for your service, especially in that era 🇦🇺
4:00 -- Rear sight. Top mounted magazine. STRALYA!
Eh, as mentioned elsewhere, you mostly didn't bother with the sights unless you were trying to be extra clever. Point towards t'other guy and pull the trigger. They'll take a few rounds and have a bit of a lie down to rethink the idea or they'll get the hint and go be somewhere that doesn't have bits of lead heading their way.
Either way, she's apples!
As an infantryman we were taught to strip, assemble the weapon and did a few live fire exercises but it never featured in any company or regimental exercises. In relation to the sites I don't actually remember using them. When training it was close quarter fire and movement.
I clicked like when Ian pronounced Lithgow properly, the first American to do so, maybe ever.
He can also say “Melbourne “ correctly....!!!
@@markfark5491 Heh to be fair they also have Melbourne in the US ;) But I see what ya mean mate.
@@petethebastard M O S C O E
Canook
@@arkie14 Yeah, there's a Melbourne in Florida...but they pronounce it differently. They say "Mel-born", and as a Sydneysider, I've always said something between "Mel-burn" and a simple "Melb'n."
Ex Australian ammunition technical officer here...correct on the serial number, the AD is manufacturing location, year of make, and consecutive gun. The weapon was designed with close in melee in mind, and the standard butt was actually longer than the one pictured here. The Australian 9mm round was a standard overload, giving it 1400fps at the muzzle, a real man stopper for 9mm rounds. We had a range accident once with a 9mm browning pistol, where the round passed through a guy's chest through both sides of the rib cage, and ploughed through another shooter's upper thigh. It made the F1 climb a bit in firing, but rounds on target would have been pretty lethal.
Recently watched the very good movie "Danger Close". The one thing that I noticed the Aussies weren't using F1 but Owen Guns.
I can only assume F1 hadn't reached the fellows at Long Tang.
Danger Close finally acknowledging the ANZAC involvement in Vietnam on the big screen.
g'Day Ian great video. The reason for the" left handed" sight on the Owen is that a " right handed" sight could get caught in your webbing. The Owen was a gem to use. Especially in the jungle where you couldn't see much further than 20 feet. You often heard your target before you saw it. Long range high powered weapons where far more difficult because of their size. Also an Owen could spray an area. One didn't need to ,but it was nice to know you could.
It allows you to keep a solid purchase on the gun. If the sights were on the left you would be holding the gun farther away from your center in order to see the sights, with them on the right you can tilt the gun slightly and roll your cheek over the stock to see them. This brings the gun closer to center. Honestly doubt they used these sights as more than reference points anyway.
EDIT: Scratch that, go to Lithgow and find out. We'd love to see it.
I found it pretty accurate on the mechanical (pop-up) range. In the RAE our officers and NCO's and drivers usually carried it but it was good for building clearance, less likely to knock your mate 2 rooms away like an SLR.
The front sight was from a Bren gun.
The holes in the magazine housing was so you could align it left or right.
If you needed to change the elevation, you knocked out the blade completely and put a new one in
I was at the Lithgow museum last month and thought it was fantastic, especially for being entirely volunteer run with a shoestring budget. There is also a great handgun collection there full of rarities that I now recognise thanks to this channel. The factory these days is a shadow of its former self but the volunteers are collecting equipment from the disused parts of the factory in the hopes of one day having a pre-WWII manufacturing equipment display open to the public. However, if you ask, they'll take you through it no problems. We'd love to have you come and check out Lithgow. Despite the internet telling you that everything will kill you in Australia, we're a pretty welcoming lot.
The people in Australia won't kill you, it's just about everything else.
Did you see the gold plated pistol the President of Brazil presented to the Australian Prime Minster's wife Sonia?
I was lucky to fire one early in my army days. The reason the sight is offset to the right is when you are laying in the prone position you tilt the F1 to the left so the expended brass flies off to the right and not straight down where it can bounce back in your face.
The position of the sight for right handers allowed parallel between the eyes to centre the sight picture. That was the reason given to me both by my grandfather (WW2 Owen gun) and my old WO2 from specialist weapons training at the school of infantry back in the late 70's.
Fun gun in Rising Storm 2: Vietnam, Hope I can shoot it someday.
I think it's the best SMG in the game by far.
Honestly the Aussies get all my favorite guns in that game, that and the NVA Mas 49
I’ve always thought it was a bug that when you change fire modes on the F1 in RS2 there was no animation or noise like every other gun in the game. But then I found out it had a progressive trigger very cool.
@@EpeXC part of the TOETs was to fire single shots,something the old gun i was given couldn't manage.
@@TheWhoamaters Yeah the AUS army gets really cool weapons, I really love the Browning HP too
I remember using the F1 submachine gun, but I found that the gun used to pull to the left when we were firing full burst, & the rear sight being on the side, was often a problem, but it was easy to pull apart & clean the weapon, but I am glad that we got rid of it.
"Sterling Meets Owen: The Australian Sterlaridoo Submachine Gun"
Or ASS gun. I'll see myself out.
Nice vid as always, I'm ex infantry and used the F1 in the 80's. I found it an enjoyable weapon to use. We were trained to shoot from the hip with the weapon, using the flip up site was a rarity. There was a trick to shooting it with an overhand grip over the top of the barrel to stop it from kicking up. Unfortunately I never had the privilege of using the Owen, but my father used both and preferred the Owen.
Great timing Danger Close new movie being released. Aussies and Kiwis in Vietnam
There are plenty of comments in the thread but I'll add in that I too have carried the Owen and F1 and the sights being on the right worked very well and were not in any way awkward and didn't require you to tilt the weapon.
The F1 didn't have the balance of the Owen, which made it very awkward to handle. Liked the Owen, was annoyed at the F1, loathed the M16 , found true love with the F88
Ian: "Oh darn now I have to go to Lithgow to ask why they put the Owen and F1 SMG's sights on the right side of thee guns..."
This was the personal weapon I was sometimes stuck with in the late 1980's as a combat engineer out on exercises. The first time I fired it on a 25m range at a 3/4 silhouette target, out of 28 rounds in the magazine, only 5 hit when emptying the entire mag on auto... and I was NOT the worst marksman in my squadron. I remember it being referred to as 'the jelly bean chucker'. Much preferred the L1A1 and loved the F88 later on, and did not regret the passing of the F1.
In the Army Reserves we called it the F1 Fun Gun. Not the most accurate but it was fun to shoot.
Definitely leave the range with a grin and a stiffy. =D
Ares here as well..(1981-90) we were told by an NCO I remember that their were stories that the F1 bullets would just "bounce" off of enemy at distances more than 50 metres and so was only really good at close range anyway, yep fun to shoot on the range!
I fired one at Puckapunyal in '86. We were told to fire from the hip, I couldn't hit anything with it. Far more proficient with the SLR. I'm impressed Ian would even know about the Lithgow manufacturing facility. Maybe the war memorial in Canberra would have information on why the sights were positioned as they are.
Simon Hoare s
@@andersonsroad5161 '71 Singleton, same - fire from hip.
Said Lithgow right. You get a big tick in my book for that sir. Nice video as always. Kind regards from Oz.
I know it well. Driving M113's for 6 years the F1 was part and parcel. Actually fun to fire. Tough little bugger too. The rear sight isn't as flimsy as you think and on the range I had no problem using the sights and I'm right handed. I think the position of the sights cater to a normal tilt to the left you get when actually using the sights.
In regard to the Owen vs the F1. The Owen is a combat SMG. I know the F1 is as well but it was really only used to get you out of trouble. Something for the crews to have if they had to bail. Unless you were at the range doing your yearly competency on the F1 you wouldn't really use the sights anyway. If the enemy were that close for the 9mm to be effective you'd just have to point and fire.
Thank you , Ian
Oh my, the memories of 'playing' with one of these. Much nicer to lug about than the SLR which was only just nicer to lug around than the AR (automatic version of the SLR). I loved firing these things when we had the chance (all on the range--including the sneaker range which was especially fun). No very accurate over about 50m, but with enough rounds heading towards that pop-up target on the sneaker, you could land a couple of hits that would have been hurty in the least. Targets sometimes popped up at less than 25m on the sneaker and you could often get all rounds into it knocking it over. I won a shooting trophy (SMG) with one of these.
The sight was never an issue and to be honest, I don't recall anyone complaining about it in the least, other than overall that the weapon was never accurate enough for many who preferred the SLR for accuracy over distances. C/mon.
Cleaning? Apart from those cooling holes in the barrel jacket (that loved to collect and protect dirt and dust by just walking outside with it), these were so easy to clean and maintain in the field. The pistol assembly pins were designed thus that a multitude of implements could be used to undo them ranging from an empty 9mm cartridge, the knife or spoon from your KFS set, a coin, a tool on you utility penknife (I forget the actual designation of the 'penknife'), even a flattened beer bottle lid or a can tab, to an actual screwdriver.
Tes, a fun weapon to fire, though I used to prefer the SLR.
Did you ever have to qualify on the AR? We didn't but had to fire it for the experience. Beast of a weapon.
Knife, Pocket, Clasp? I remember them giving us a lesson at Kapooka on the correct way of slitting your wrist with them so we wouldn't bother the RI's with bullshit minor wounds.
I was instructing a female soldier on the F1 on the 30 meter range. Like all of its breed it fired a burst to the right and upwards. Shit was trumps as a round must have struck something as it riccosheyed 180 degrees and landed right between my opened feet
Simple manufacture, sturdy and reliable. Truly remarkable when fired from the hip, excellent accuracy and grouping and you rarely have to walk it far to get on target.
Our Steyr AUG has a progressive trigger mechanism as well.
Yeah, I hate the progressive trigger.
Lithgow armery and museum would make a great show
Lithgow has a museum close to sydney which displays a lot of guns.
Only problem is the New South Wales Government is planning to permanently de-activate every firearm in the museum by welding etc. to comply with new laws.
First time I have every heard an American on RUclips pronounce Lithgow properly. Ian has been corrected in the past and has taken note.
That would be awesome, Id love to see a breakdown of all the Aussie rifles and smgs, from the number 1 Enfield to the F90 to the Owen gun.
That would be awesome, Id love to see a breakdown of all the Aussie rifles and smgs, from the number 1 Enfield to the F90 to the Owen gun.
Tim Blizzard nothing special,just look at it online..
I'm flashing back to the 70's with this video. Tank drivers and loader/operators carried these and gunners and crew commanders carried 9mm's. My Troop Sergeant, a Korean war veteran, wasn't impressed with it. He much preferred the Owen Gun. This weapon was always referred to as "the SMG" rather than F1 because at the time, there were three pieces of equipment in use all designated F1. One was a truck, the second, this SMG and I can't remember the third. The truck continued to be called F1 and with alternate names for this SMG and whatever the other piece of equipment was. All useful, but not interchangeable. :P
and the blast cap assembly/booby trap device. The F1 designation lives on with the F1 Grenade.
was very comfortable to carry use and tough weapon never had problem with the rear sight in my 20 of years of use. Having the mag on the top let you get closer to mother earth on the two way firing range . Unlike SMG’s with long bottom loading mags hey it worked . Both with the F! and its dad the Owen.
hi. i was an australian AFV crewman in the 70s. F1 was my personal weapon .vast majority of the time that i used this weapon was in instinctive mode ,from the hip. rear sight was never an issue. was easy to use easy to clean and easy to stow also use to carry 9mm browning in shoulder holster until the powers that be got all precious about it and had a hissy fit. was never issued a bayonet for mine .
Never had a problem with the off set sights, while it had a tendency to start climbing after roughly five-six rounds, used the sling to control the burst better and it was easier to carry in the confined spaces onboard ship then the SLR (L1A1)
Infantry units normally had a few of these in the armoury up until the early 90s that were dragged out a couple of times a year for a shoot at the 25m range but were replaced by the shortened Australian Steyr in the early 90s. You are right Ian, they were an ordinary weapon, but not bad. No one ever went out of their way to shoot them, unlike the Owens, Brens and even Vickers guns that some units still had hoarded in armouries up until the early 90s.
"...otherwise I'll just have to got to Lithgow and ask someone else." Damn. That would just be horrible, wouldn't it?
I'm loving the Aussie weapon videos Ian.
Nice, brings back memories.
They weren't very accurate, but they were a lot of fun to shoot.
Cheers mate, been waiting on this one for awhile! You’re a true legend
This was my personal weapon for 16 years, it was a heap of crap, wouldn’t take it to war, although it was fun to shoot.
Never had a problem aiming it, the offset sight wasn’t a problem, it was also good for single shots.
I was just thinking about how disappointed I would be to get sent to Vietnam with this
John Mitchell they were replaced pretty quick by m16s in Vietnam.
16 frigging years? Ya poor sod wouldn't they give you an SLR or PIG once and a while?
At least you go something with range as an Combat Arms Instructor my Duty Weapon was a 38 special revolver and later the M9 (Berettta 92) pistol and if we went on alert I also got a Remington 12 gauge Shotgun.
Just a hypothesis on the positioning of the sites: 1) having to roll your head over the stock, this would increase your contact surface (cheek/neck). 2) tilting the gun would mean that brass would be ejected away from your feet when walking. Both reasons are in two very different ways of firing the gun. 1 is trying to use the gun for accuracy. 2 is more up close full Auto fire. Again just a hypothesis.
Love seeing all these Australian made guns
Yeah. I was a crewman in an Australian AFV in the Light Horse back in the 80s. I used to carry an F-gun as my personal bundoo when operating around the vehicle. I loved the thing. Always fired, rugged AF, utterly unbreakable. So easy to maintain.
Sights are off set because we're all lefties!
Hahahahahah.
Nice video Ian.
You got Lithgow right!
Is this also why the toilets spin backwards? Also, does that mean the flusher is on the right?
@@mykilpee,you'll have to come over and see.
Because we drive on the left?
NemetskyCzar No LSAF just copied Owen sights..
Back in the 70's everyone enjoyed going Gangsta on the range with the F1, just fun to fire, hated single shots , you would have to check your fall of shot to make sure you fired a single, that big heavy bolt recoiling made it feel like you fired a burst.
At this time many of the Troops were Vietnam Vets & none of them liked the F1 as a Combat weapon due too the fact it was a 9mm & lacked the firepower, they preferred any Variant of the M16, especially lead scouts & sigs.
Best times with the F1 was walking the Sneaker ranges.
Thanks for the Vid, you brought up lots of good memories.
My guess on orientation is that it is not meant to be held in the vertical orientation, it is meant to be rotated about 15 degrees so the rear sight is vertical... When deciding gun rotation, rotation 15 degrees counter-clockwise is much easier for right-handers, and rotation clockwise just feels weird and awkward... That small of a rotation doesn't harm gun handling, and actually solves some issues...
It’s neat to see some of these old guns and recognize the parts of them that were used on the blasters in Star Wars
If the FG-42 had a baby with the sterling submachine gun....
This weapon brings back a lot of memories! I fired this weapon a few times in 1973 at the Army base and the training area we did exercises in at the time. The tinny rear sight looked cheap and fragile but it was fun to use and shot quite well.
As unlikely as it is that you'll get to use on of these on a range, Ian. It was still great to see a little Downunder colour on your show.
If...and it will be a big if, you ever get to do a post WW2 Sub-Machine Gun Match? I would hope the F1 gets a chance against the Stirling, MAT49 and UZI.🇦🇺
Training and weapons handling discipline made rear sight damage surprisingly rare. The short butt made the right side mounting of the sight favourable as you tended to hug the gun and this made it extremely accurate to 100 metres.
I like that stock. It classes up the gun.
Imagine a wire stock on it, it’s make it even more grotesque looking.
My grandfather said they put the sights to the right as they figured most people where right eye dominant so t was easier to use with a top magazine. He also said there was a plan for an f1 shot gun.
The reason the Australians offset their sights to the right is because North and South are reversed in Australia, and if you rotate the compass you'll see that East and West, and thus right and left, also switch, therefore the majority of Australians are actually left-handed, at least in the Southern Hemisphere.
Buuull...shittt, sorry I sneezed. Good story, reminds me of the time I wrestled Dropbears. It was 199....
Used these in the army reserve in Townsville in the early eighties, at no stage in training did we use the sites or on a normal range, it was always through a fake jungle/bush trail with pop ups that came up between 2 and 10 metres away (instructor walking behind you activated them), where you were directed to fire as quickly as possible from the waist on instinct. Great fun, and I don't remember anyone complaining about the gun, I thought it was ideal for that sort of scenario.
The sights are mounted to the right because of the coriolis effect.
JUST MY THOUGHTS - coriolis effect .......
@10:30 the right biased sight is more comfortable for right handed shooter if you roll your elbow out (to the right) it improves sight and shoulder comfort, especially when laying prone.
Thanks for covering some of our Australian guns, Ian. But re. the sights; these were never intended for sniping, and in fact, in the jungle of Vietnam where these guns were used, it was mostly close range "point and shoot", so you never even had time to lift that silly aperture sight. I always thought it could have used a horizontal front grip to the left side to keep one's fingers away from the ejection port, but admittedly that would have made the gun more awkward for radio operators and tankers and the like to whom these guns were issued.
Really appreciate your channel! Cheers from South Australia.
Hi Ian I used these until they were phased out. The sights were offset so you could use the palm of the left hand to depress the mag release to remove the mag while keeping the master hand on the pistol grip to keep control of the weapon. Sights to the left would have interfered with this. No manual of arms for this weapon said that you should roll the gun to the left in order to aim as this would mean the gun would not be seated in the shoulder. The sights were only really used for semi auto fire at ranges over 25 m as we were taught to fire instinctively and in auto you don’t really have much of a sight picture. The other reason for sight on the right was that they don’t snag on your webbing. Just remembered that we don’t call it a bayonet lug or latch ,it’s a boss at the front and standard at the rear that you lock to. I believe these terms originate from UK
Regardless of how good of a smg this is, at the time it came out it was really at the tail end of smgs as really significant in warfare anyways. Even the best smg is going to be a hard sell vs. a short-barreled AR, within the same roles.
I used the F1 a bit while in the Army Reserve during the early 80s. They are fairly accurate out to about 30 metres and I think they taught their maximum effective range was around 100 metres. One of my instructors was a Viet Vet. His story was they didn't have a lot of stopping power and the bullets bounced off the VC raincoats at 100 metres in the rain.
I had a lot of fun with them on sneaker ranges where you walked down a trail with an instructor 2 feet behind you and shot at pop-up targets. They were great fun to fire and very reliable, but we never took them out on exercises because there weren't any blanks for them.
If you were lefthanded like me, you were taught to fire these righthanded. The issue was hot cases would eject down through the split in your sleeve if you tried firing them lefthanded. They taught us to fire mainly from the hip; you aimed to your left of the target because they rode up and across the chest. When you put a few mags through them the handguard got a bit warm.
ive heard that in jungle patrols they ended up folding the rear sight and just aiming with the front sight, since the distance was pretty close between them and the enemy (also how much accurate shots you expect from an open bolt smg anyway)
You are correct about distance. Contacts occurred between 2 and 10mtrs in Malaya and SVN and what we trained for up until the 1990's.
they were brilliant! and they were hugely reliable cheers
Thanks Ian. I was Assault Trooper and driver, mid-late 80’s. Fun to shoot. Never tried anything but 25m range and never used the sights or the progressive trigger. Short bursts placed an entire mag into a figure 11 target with no worries. Mag dump sprayed all over. I still have calluses from reloading. Pain in the behind to carry when on exercise as the mag always managed to bang into some part of the M113 on de-bus.
WRT why the sights are on the right:
This is a guess, mind you. I never saw anything official.
But did you notice where the magazine release is?
if you mounted the sights on the left you’d get the tang of the mag release in your sight picture.
And the constraint of requiring the mags to be compatible with the Sterling means you can’t relocate the mag release.
Anecdote: Back in 75, the training base at RAAF Wagga Wagga had a sectioned off F1 barrel with three bullets lodged in it.
With a simple blowback action, if you get a projectile stuck in the barrel, you’ll continue firing and lodging more lead in the barrel until you let go the trigger. No dangerous back pressure as it will vent out the non locked breach. But the firing rate accelerates.
I’m told the firer got one helluva surprise before he could release the trigger though.
They should have just adapted the Owen gun to Sterling magazines and called it a day.
No, Owens were wartime manufacture at a fast rate by previously inexperienced machinists. There were large tolerance discreapancies across the inventory meaning that many parts were not interchangeable.
the military did not want to adopt the Owen gun in the first place but the govt forced them to give it a fair shot. it outperformed the other SMG's and it was accepted. infantry really loved it but the higher ups wanted to replace it with their own gun as soon as possible because salt. they couldn't just have a factory mass produce it so things would go smoother and have it be interchangeable and modded for ease of use and upgrading. no they make a slightly downgraded gun to replace it.
@@aaronleverton4221 They were worn out by '73 and needed to be replaced. But from seeing the vid on the Owen and then this - yeah, just make new, improved Owens, with proper manufacturing and proper tolerances, and Sterling mags. From the look of the Owens, how much cheaper could the F1 have been? Saved a couple of bucks and lost the great reliability of the isolated recoil spring.
It used to richochet off everything it hit because of the low powered round. I am an expert because I used one for many years. Love the clip. Cheers mate!
I was hoping for a video on this after the owen and austen videos
I had the opportunity to use the F1 for 2 weeks in 1983 at the Canungra Jungle Warfare Training Centre when I played the part of forward scout. As a signalmen my unit, the 1st Signal Regiment had to undergo two weeks training every year in Infantry Minor Tactics. This entailed one week of tuition on all of the ranges at Cunungra, including a night shoot, sneaker range, and shooting from trenches under the control of a section commander on various popup targets ranging from about 25 metres to 300+ metres. The second week was spent in the Northern New South Wales highlands which is the closest thing you'll get to jungle in that neck of the woods. I can't say I enjoyed playing the part of forward scout, but the F1 was a bloody fun weapon to lug around for a couple of weeks.
I have to add that we also used the F1 during payroll parades where each guard (usually 2) were given about 5 rounds of 9mm ammo that we were were under strict orders to not load into the weapon. We were told to put the bullets into one of our ammo pouches and if someone held up the payroll to simply hand it over to the crooks. As for the ammo, we were told we could throw it at the crooks but under no circumstances could we load the weapons. This was back in the good old days when we were paid in cash.
I wish I can find the source, but I’ve hear that placing the sights on the right mitigates another issue on top mounted magazines and that is that is rotational stability. Having a mass protrude out the point of rotation means that any adjustment pointing the gun will be met with an inertial force wanting to either stop movement or continue movement when adjustment stops. This can make it difficult the handle, especially when the magazine is in an unstable state.
Having sight on the right side will insensitive the user to roll the weapon towards them. This would creat and triangle frame with the weapon and right arm being the right side of the triangle and the left arm being the left side. With the weapon rotated left, the left arm will have more control of the inertial forces collected by the magazine. At the same time, the direction of inertial rotation is now only going to occur counter clockwise so it is more predictable.
agbond003 the sight were on the right because Australian manual of arms was to use your left palm to push against the mag release and remove mag. Sights on the left would interfere with this it also prevents the sights from snagging on your webbing, as for the comments I’ve seen on here about rolling the weapon to the left gangsta style not something I was taught when using this gun. The rear sight was only really used if you were trying to shoot semi auto at ranges over 25 m we were taught to shoot instinctive off the hip so no real need to aim just point and spray
stephen callon , agbond003 is correct. The Owen also had sights offset to the right as well but mag release was central. Ie sight offset not due to mag release. Mag release on F1 couldn't be central due to position to fix the ejector to the maghousing/receiver tube.
Offset sights to the right allowed the gun to be more central to the shooter- more controllable.
I may have suggested this before, in response to an Owen gun video; I may be wrong but I'll throw it in here for good measure. If a right-eye-dominant right-handed shooter is using a full-size rifle, they'll cant their head to the right to bring their right eye in line with sights that are centred above the bore axis; if the stock is a good fit, they may achieve a 'cheek-weld'. If the same shooter is using a SMG with a rudimentary buttstock and a magazine mounted above the centre of the bore axis, they can do one of two things to get a sight picture: cant their head to the left, away from the weapon, to bring their dominant eye in line with left-mounted sights or take up their normal shooting position while pulling the weapon even more closely into the shoulder to sight down the right side.
I'd be interested to know whether there are other SMGs with offset sights or whether the weapons with sights offset to the left were all of a different class. What works for a SMG at the shoulder might not work with a LMG on a bipod, and vice versa.
They should've call it "Stowen".
Nah mate, that's what you say when you're puttin' it away, ie. yer stowen it in the back of the truck. :P
Nah, Austerling, because... Aussies
I was also a tank crewman (Centurions) and fired both the Owen and F1. They were great shooting and I am right handed, by the way they added an additional safety slide that locked the bolt back to stop accidentally discharges!
For sure this mag doesn't disrupt the view :)
Retired ADF 77-97. Great weapon for vehicle crews (light and easily stowed). More comforting than a pistol.Never saw damaged sights - though rarely fired using them anyway.Forward Sight is located on right of magazine housing due to Mag release catch on the left.Mag on top worked well for firing in the prone position.Not sure if any bad guys were actually ever tagged by this weapon.