I think it helps to understand the rise of Hitler not simply as a failure of democracy, but as the consequence of an inherently weak national state that is institutionally unable to defend itself from internal threats. The politics at play in the Weimar had less and less to do with the official institutions of government (the parliament, the army, etc.), and more and more to do with the sheer power of para-military private armies to negate the German Republic, on the ground, in the police forces, and ultimately at the federal level. Hitler didn't assume power, Hitler brushed aside the phantom government that was the Republic, that had ceased to effectively exist as a governing power. Hitler didn't enlarge or secure his power within the German law or state, Hitler utterly erased German law and the state, and simply replaced it with his party, hence: The party is the state. The state is the party. It wouldn't have mattered if Hitler was appointed Chancellor, Hitler was already the supreme power by the time this happened. The Nazis would have simply gone ahead and conducted a coup and taken power without the political hassle. As it turned out, Hitler simply took the shortcut and used the last remaining power of the Republic to negate itself as a functioning government. Either way, Hitler would have still taken over. IMO. I mean, what else can a state do that is limited by treaty to an army of 100,000 and political parties can raise private armies that far outnumber them?
A mixture of economic failures and shame after losing the Great War led those who would have defended and strengthened those institutions - the social democrats, the Christian centrists, even the traditional conservatives - to oppose each other, to fight fire after fire, and to be unwilling to face and destroy those private armies (battles between Nazis and Communists being the most notorious, but not only - the old militarists of the Kaiser never went away). A democracy will fall if those in charge of running it aren't willing to defend its institutions tooth and nail. And yes, that's also a lesson for our times.
Core issue similar to today international currency speculation by "speculators of any country of any kind and of any hue" Churchill 1925 gold standard Hansard. Sheila Michaels and FX and cryptocurrencies controlled by the FX market opposing cooperation in the UN on Thermonukes monitoring and reduction Pandemic closing borders and testing and quarantining at the borders and global warming filthy planet. The answer is Bretton Woods and highly profitable eco friendly technology revolution as fast as the world economy turned from peace to war and back to peace 1939-45 if not quicker as it's much less to do to acheive almost carbon zsro. Plus, Universal basic income, health care ,paid university,paid eco friendly travel,vegan vegetarian diet encouraged,and no man allowed to fall below the net as promised by Churchill Atllee Roosevelt etc stabilisation of world currencies as a foundation for a lasting peace. Easily afforded. The argument should be why live on a dirty planet using precious natural resources with almost infinite renewable energy from mother nature with $7,000 for 1 BN people each in a day Forex trading and$700,000 for 1 BN people each in tax havens snaffled since 1971 in Taxhavenland against a world economic peace treaty promised to the troops 3 weeks after DDAY. I have a bet on stabilization of world currencies Bretton Woods,. Concerning my late mother's flat and a possible multi billion pound development in canford cliffs Poole Dorset,if you want a risk a penny and challenge any of my information. Put up the challenge I will bet you, Plus some Gold if you like. I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, anyone want a bet my facts are not correct? A song facebook.com/groups/2581129395440503/permalink/3120523391501098/?sfnsn=scwspmo&ref=share
would've been nice to see the pics that were on the screen so we could see who/what he was talking about near the end of the video...in the last 10 mins of it or so....
The start of it all is the peoples not consenting to a form of government and then defending it as priority one. In the better Anglo American nations its the people who enforce the existence of government, to defend their rights , and then the form of government which they created. The people were silent in Germany and so forceful people could take over. Whether right or left, .
The Nazis and Communists both took advantage of the prevailing economic turmoil. The Nazis eventually got the backing of the powerful militaristic conservatives, and of a large part of German industry, for that very reason. Anyone in the middle - centre, centre-left, or centre-right - was squeezed right out. They also didn't join together to defend the institutions of government, as you point out. It takes a will.
Ludendorff did ask civilians to get in touch with Wilson and offer, not surrender, offer to put an end to this terrible bloodshed, along the lines of Wilson's January speech about his glorious 14 points. Wilson suddenly saw himself in every history book as the angel of peace, the savior of the world, adored and worshipped all over the world, forever and ever... SO, he began a letter exchange with prince Max von Baden who with Ebert and a few others, saw themselves as those who instigated a new social system in association with the rich and powerful and finally got rid of the old, heavy and smelling kinda strange Hollen... Hollen... something monarchy. Wilson said all kinds of shiny things like 'peace without victory' 'disarmament everyone' 'freedom' 'democracy' 'mountains of dollar bills' etc... which is exactly what the Germans wanted to hear, of course, they suddenly saw themselves as so successful, they would be in the same books as Wilson!!!!! Things looked bright, for everyone, yay! Two small requirements Wilson said, get rid of the Kaiser, install a republik, and you're done. 15 minutes later the Germans called back and said: Anything else? Wilson said no, leave your weapons where they are, you can go home, it's all over for you, I'll get in touch with the British and the French I'm sure they'll agree to these conditions, a few details to smooth the edges maybe but everything will be fine... Unfortunately, they were not happy at all so when the language began to sound a bit... emotional? Well, Wilson said something about some economic contraptions I believe, and the 14 points became the talk of the town again but behind their monkey faces, they would find a way to get rid of that stupid peace lover and get Germany down, down, down, that why they started that war in the first place dammit. As Lord Halifax said, they were too old and tired for those fair competition, work harder and may the better win games Germany had grown so good at, a short war would settle the case quick and easy, and life would go back to being as boring as it ever was. Continued...
Therefore, the civilians betrayed the military, Wilson betrayed the civilians, someone betrayed the population, Germany was bled dry, her banks were now controlled by foreigners, the treaty said so, crashes were regular, the Germans sold all they had, 6 million without a job, the communists were finding an audience and society was on the verge of total collapse, asking people what they thought of democracy was probably not a good idea at that time so what was left? What had to be, after profound crisis like this, authoritarian systems then become valid options. Hitler may have been a poor military leader but his social, economic and technologic reforms and innovations made Germany number 1 again, giving back bread, happiness and hope to his people, he truly loved his people and his country and he made peace offers to all his neighbors all the time, he tried really hard but the international financiers he had kicked out when he took power didn't see it that way, they were very angry so no matter what, Germany had to be crushed. That's when the story gets too sad, I try not to think about it too much...
The starting premise that the second war could have been avoided is unrealistic. With or without the Nazis, Germany, perhaps supported by the Soviets as neutrals or even allies, was always going back to war, and was actively preparing to do so under Weimar (with secret Soviet help).
For all you neo-con Nazis that went after this guy for his attributions of how Hitler came to power, you missed the point. This video isn't about the rise of Hitler but the fall of Weimar which admittedly isn't explained in great detail as to why, mostly how. It certainly isn't news that there was hyperinflation under Weimar; what would be interesting would be to understand why they chose this course more than to say it was just one of two options. I do believe one is hard pressed to explain the situation without a close examination of the Bretton-Woods Agreement. In the end I would say it was the greed at the top of all these governments before their overthrow or turn to dictatorship (and then overthrow) that led to their demise. Anyway, here we go again.
For a historian he makes a foolish mistake.the stock market crash in 1929did not cause the Great Depression.the stock market crashed because we were going in to a depression.
Sorry but this lecture has nothing to do with being politically correct. It's a very sobering, insightful, and true account of history with many important lessons. If you read this person's comment thinking "I won't watch this now" please reconsider. It's one of the best history lectures I've ever seen.
This long-running misconception that Hitler and the Nazis were "far-right" is long overdue a correction: Nazis were far-LEFT, and the name "National SOCIALIST German WORKERS' Party" was NOT a joke. They meant it. Hitler himself had said on multiple occasions that his ideology was a derivative of Marxism, and his major point of pride was that he had "figured out how to make socialism work".
If we look at Hitler's economic policies, they were just a tad to the right of Stalin's, and the _only_ important difference between Stalinism and Nazism was that Hitler didn't take that one final step - expropriation of ownership of means of production. Hitler (correctly) thought that this would cause disastrous damage to the economy, and this was one of the main reasons why he hated the USSR and Communists so much: because, according to him, the Soviets _"screwed up the good thing and gave Socialism bad name by doing something incredibly stupid"._
So while Stalin just killed off or chased away all the factory owners and put Commissars in charge of every single detail of production, Hitler told the German factory owners: “We will let you keep your businesses, but you will do exactly what we tell you to do” - which means it was _still_ a centrally-controlled command economy (just like the USSR), except that the more granular details of running the operations were left in the hands of people who were _more competent_ at this than Communist Commissars.
And for those factory owners, who refused to comply, things didn’t end well. For example, when Goering’s Air Ministry moved to take more direct control of all Germany’s airplane production and Hugo Junkers refused to comply, he “mysteriously” died soon afterwards, and a much more “helpful” person was installed as his replacement.
What eventually turned Hitler into such an evil historical figure, was the fact that he was _also_ a brutal imperialist: started WW2 and committed large-scale crimes against humanity. Had he stayed peaceful, he would have gone down in history as one of the revered figures of the Political Left.
The reason why so many people NOW believe that Nazis were "far-right" is because, after the war, the international Left had to distance themselves from the bad PR of the Nazis, so what's better than to recast them as something *opposite* of themselves: the "far-RIGHT"? Hence, recasting Nazis as "far-right" became one of the priority agenda items for the post-war Left's "long march through the institutions" (a.k.a. Cultural Marxism), and they were obviously successful, in part for reasons that the Right didn't see this as something important enough to push back against.
It must also be said that, in many ways, the Nazi arrangement _did_ share quite a few similarities with “crony capitalism” - which is another reason why a lot of people can get fooled into believing that Nazism was “right-wing”. But what would be _more accurate_ to say instead, is: “crony capitalism” is what happens when capitalism drifts too far to the _Left._
And since this post-WW2 “redefinition” of National Socialism, the *"Nazis were far-right" meme* has been an _incredibly valuable_ *"political weapon" for the Left,* because it gives them the power to silence everybody, who's disagreeing with them, by equating them with the Nazis by using the formula: "We are the Left. If you disagree with us, then you are far-right. Nazis were far-right, therefore you are a Nazi, and everybody knows that Nazis were horrible criminals, which means that you are a criminal too, for which you should be prosecuted, unless you shut up immediately and stop resisting our agenda."
He who controls the language, controls the narrative - which is why the Political Left has always put so much effort into controlling the language (including the definitions of certain strategically-important terms).
Another reason why the "Nazis were far-right" meme is of such strategic importance to the Political Left is because for as long as a lot of people continue believing that “Nazis were far-RIGHT, therefore Political Right are like Nazis”, then their political affiliation decisions will be strongly influenced by the _very_ highly-persuasive message “everybody, who considers themselves to be decent and moral people, must reject Nazism by always opposing the Political Right and supporting the Political Left”.
@@rocketpig1914 No, the original definition (based primarily on economic and taxation policies) is quite clear and unambiguous. The problem is that the left-right concept is now being applied to policies that have absolutely nothing to do with economics, which causes a lot of confusion and subsequently, a lot of deeply misguided decisions.
That's a fucking moronic thing to say, and three other morons agree. (Because I assume you liked your own comment like a fucking knob.) Good thing that little Anglo-centric world you love so much is fast becoming a thing of the past.
@A J This comment is four years old and the comment to which I responded belonged to someone who managed to be so toxic their YT account no longer exists. So you don't really have the right context to understand what was even being communicated. That said, the couple centuries of British hegemony (i.e. Anglo hegemony) have been an abject and slow-burning dumpster fire. Not even the modern UK benefits from it anymore. Quick, short-lived love and a very long divorce is what we're dealing with and people are misguided enough to defend it.
I think it helps to understand the rise of Hitler not simply as a failure of democracy, but as the consequence of an inherently weak national state that is institutionally unable to defend itself from internal threats. The politics at play in the Weimar had less and less to do with the official institutions of government (the parliament, the army, etc.), and more and more to do with the sheer power of para-military private armies to negate the German Republic, on the ground, in the police forces, and ultimately at the federal level. Hitler didn't assume power, Hitler brushed aside the phantom government that was the Republic, that had ceased to effectively exist as a governing power. Hitler didn't enlarge or secure his power within the German law or state, Hitler utterly erased German law and the state, and simply replaced it with his party, hence: The party is the state. The state is the party. It wouldn't have mattered if Hitler was appointed Chancellor, Hitler was already the supreme power by the time this happened. The Nazis would have simply gone ahead and conducted a coup and taken power without the political hassle. As it turned out, Hitler simply took the shortcut and used the last remaining power of the Republic to negate itself as a functioning government. Either way, Hitler would have still taken over. IMO. I mean, what else can a state do that is limited by treaty to an army of 100,000 and political parties can raise private armies that far outnumber them?
More what?
A mixture of economic failures and shame after losing the Great War led those who would have defended and strengthened those institutions - the social democrats, the Christian centrists, even the traditional conservatives - to oppose each other, to fight fire after fire, and to be unwilling to face and destroy those private armies (battles between Nazis and Communists being the most notorious, but not only - the old militarists of the Kaiser never went away). A democracy will fall if those in charge of running it aren't willing to defend its institutions tooth and nail. And yes, that's also a lesson for our times.
Core issue similar to today international currency speculation by "speculators of any country of any kind and of any hue"
Churchill 1925 gold standard Hansard.
Sheila Michaels and FX and cryptocurrencies controlled by the FX market opposing cooperation in the UN on Thermonukes monitoring and reduction Pandemic closing borders and testing and quarantining at the borders and global warming filthy planet.
The answer is Bretton Woods and highly profitable eco friendly technology revolution as fast as the world economy turned from peace to war and back to peace 1939-45 if not quicker as it's much less to do to acheive almost carbon zsro.
Plus,
Universal basic income, health care ,paid university,paid eco friendly travel,vegan vegetarian diet encouraged,and no man allowed to fall below the net as promised by Churchill Atllee Roosevelt etc stabilisation of world currencies as a foundation for a lasting peace.
Easily afforded.
The argument should be why live on a dirty planet using precious natural resources with almost infinite renewable energy from mother nature with $7,000 for 1 BN people each in a day Forex trading and$700,000 for 1 BN people each in tax havens snaffled since 1971 in Taxhavenland against a world economic peace treaty promised to the troops 3 weeks after DDAY.
I have a bet on stabilization of world currencies Bretton Woods,. Concerning my late mother's flat and a possible multi billion pound development in canford cliffs Poole Dorset,if you want a risk a penny and challenge any of my information.
Put up the challenge I will bet you,
Plus some Gold if you like.
I'm willing to put my money where my mouth is, anyone want a bet my facts are not correct?
A song
facebook.com/groups/2581129395440503/permalink/3120523391501098/?sfnsn=scwspmo&ref=share
Fabulous lecture by gifted historian.
would've been nice to see the pics that were on the screen so we could see who/what he was talking about near the end of the video...in the last 10 mins of it or so....
very good
How do i contact Mrs Abram who uploaded this video as part of a history playlist??
The lesson here is that extremism, especially violent extremism, tends to beget more extremism and more violence.
Interesting observation : “many who voted in 1933 had never voted before.”
And it would be a while before they voted again....
And in ‘24 it was with quite a few who didn’t have more voting left. Potentially resulting in the same for all younger.
Richard Kind at 19:54
Insite into what could happen
The start of it all is the peoples not consenting to a form of government and then defending it as priority one.
In the better Anglo American nations its the people who enforce the existence of government, to defend their rights , and then the form of government which they created.
The people were silent in Germany and so forceful people could take over. Whether right or left, .
The Nazis and Communists both took advantage of the prevailing economic turmoil. The Nazis eventually got the backing of the powerful militaristic conservatives, and of a large part of German industry, for that very reason.
Anyone in the middle - centre, centre-left, or centre-right - was squeezed right out. They also didn't join together to defend the institutions of government, as you point out. It takes a will.
Ludendorff did ask civilians to get in touch with Wilson and offer, not surrender, offer to put an end to this terrible bloodshed, along the lines of Wilson's January speech about his glorious 14 points. Wilson suddenly saw himself in every history book as the angel of peace, the savior of the world, adored and worshipped all over the world, forever and ever... SO, he began a letter exchange with prince Max von Baden who with Ebert and a few others, saw themselves as those who instigated a new social system in association with the rich and powerful and finally got rid of the old, heavy and smelling kinda strange Hollen... Hollen... something monarchy.
Wilson said all kinds of shiny things like 'peace without victory' 'disarmament everyone' 'freedom' 'democracy' 'mountains of dollar bills' etc... which is exactly what the Germans wanted to hear, of course, they suddenly saw themselves as so successful, they would be in the same books as Wilson!!!!! Things looked bright, for everyone, yay! Two small requirements Wilson said, get rid of the Kaiser, install a republik, and you're done. 15 minutes later the Germans called back and said: Anything else? Wilson said no, leave your weapons where they are, you can go home, it's all over for you, I'll get in touch with the British and the French I'm sure they'll agree to these conditions, a few details to smooth the edges maybe but everything will be fine... Unfortunately, they were not happy at all so when the language began to sound a bit... emotional? Well, Wilson said something about some economic contraptions I believe, and the 14 points became the talk of the town again but behind their monkey faces, they would find a way to get rid of that stupid peace lover and get Germany down, down, down, that why they started that war in the first place dammit. As Lord Halifax said, they were too old and tired for those fair competition, work harder and may the better win games Germany had grown so good at, a short war would settle the case quick and easy, and life would go back to being as boring as it ever was. Continued...
Therefore, the civilians betrayed the military, Wilson betrayed the civilians, someone betrayed the population, Germany was bled dry, her banks were now controlled by foreigners, the treaty said so, crashes were regular, the Germans sold all they had, 6 million without a job, the communists were finding an audience and society was on the verge of total collapse, asking people what they thought of democracy was probably not a good idea at that time so what was left? What had to be, after profound crisis like this, authoritarian systems then become valid options. Hitler may have been a poor military leader but his social, economic and technologic reforms and innovations made Germany number 1 again, giving back bread, happiness and hope to his people, he truly loved his people and his country and he made peace offers to all his neighbors all the time, he tried really hard but the international financiers he had kicked out when he took power didn't see it that way, they were very angry so no matter what, Germany had to be crushed.
That's when the story gets too sad, I try not to think about it too much...
The starting premise that the second war could have been avoided is unrealistic. With or without the Nazis, Germany, perhaps supported by the Soviets as neutrals or even allies, was always going back to war, and was actively preparing to do so under Weimar (with secret Soviet help).
Agreed. Extraordinarily presumptious to say that one man was responsible for World War II.
@@lgrace3874 Carl Jung's take was the best on it, Hitler was not 1 man. Hitler was the collective voice of 80 million resentful German people.
I thought you were focusing on the wemar republic ?
1:23 are you sure Sir.
For all you neo-con Nazis that went after this guy for his attributions of how Hitler came to power, you missed the point. This video isn't about the rise of Hitler but the fall of Weimar which admittedly isn't explained in great detail as to why, mostly how. It certainly isn't news that there was hyperinflation under Weimar; what would be interesting would be to understand why they chose this course more than to say it was just one of two options. I do believe one is hard pressed to explain the situation without a close examination of the Bretton-Woods Agreement. In the end I would say it was the greed at the top of all these governments before their overthrow or turn to dictatorship (and then overthrow) that led to their demise. Anyway, here we go again.
History is written by the victors.
Williams Daniel Johnson Amy Thompson Barbara
I don’t see a single historian in these comments lol
Obviously problem today v similar to now.
Wilson Mary Miller Deborah Allen Anthony
How democracy failed in Poland? This guy should write a book about! This would be a great reading!
For a historian he makes a foolish mistake.the stock market crash in 1929did not cause the Great Depression.the stock market crashed because we were going in to a depression.
BüRgErLichKeit
Largely, politically correct nonsense, here.
Sorry but this lecture has nothing to do with being politically correct. It's a very sobering, insightful, and true account of history with many important lessons. If you read this person's comment thinking "I won't watch this now" please reconsider. It's one of the best history lectures I've ever seen.
Walker Brenda Harris Kevin Walker Mark
Can hear* shit teach.
This long-running misconception that Hitler and the Nazis were "far-right" is long overdue a correction:
Nazis were far-LEFT, and the name "National SOCIALIST German WORKERS' Party" was NOT a joke. They meant it. Hitler himself had said on multiple occasions that his ideology was a derivative of Marxism, and his major point of pride was that he had "figured out how to make socialism work".
If we look at Hitler's economic policies, they were just a tad to the right of Stalin's, and the _only_ important difference between Stalinism and Nazism was that Hitler didn't take that one final step - expropriation of ownership of means of production. Hitler (correctly) thought that this would cause disastrous damage to the economy, and this was one of the main reasons why he hated the USSR and Communists so much: because, according to him, the Soviets _"screwed up the good thing and gave Socialism bad name by doing something incredibly stupid"._
So while Stalin just killed off or chased away all the factory owners and put Commissars in charge of every single detail of production, Hitler told the German factory owners: “We will let you keep your businesses, but you will do exactly what we tell you to do” - which means it was _still_ a centrally-controlled command economy (just like the USSR), except that the more granular details of running the operations were left in the hands of people who were _more competent_ at this than Communist Commissars.
And for those factory owners, who refused to comply, things didn’t end well. For example, when Goering’s Air Ministry moved to take more direct control of all Germany’s airplane production and Hugo Junkers refused to comply, he “mysteriously” died soon afterwards, and a much more “helpful” person was installed as his replacement.
What eventually turned Hitler into such an evil historical figure, was the fact that he was _also_ a brutal imperialist: started WW2 and committed large-scale crimes against humanity. Had he stayed peaceful, he would have gone down in history as one of the revered figures of the Political Left.
The reason why so many people NOW believe that Nazis were "far-right" is because, after the war, the international Left had to distance themselves from the bad PR of the Nazis, so what's better than to recast them as something *opposite* of themselves: the "far-RIGHT"? Hence, recasting Nazis as "far-right" became one of the priority agenda items for the post-war Left's "long march through the institutions" (a.k.a. Cultural Marxism), and they were obviously successful, in part for reasons that the Right didn't see this as something important enough to push back against.
It must also be said that, in many ways, the Nazi arrangement _did_ share quite a few similarities with “crony capitalism” - which is another reason why a lot of people can get fooled into believing that Nazism was “right-wing”. But what would be _more accurate_ to say instead, is: “crony capitalism” is what happens when capitalism drifts too far to the _Left._
And since this post-WW2 “redefinition” of National Socialism, the *"Nazis were far-right" meme* has been an _incredibly valuable_ *"political weapon" for the Left,* because it gives them the power to silence everybody, who's disagreeing with them, by equating them with the Nazis by using the formula:
"We are the Left. If you disagree with us, then you are far-right. Nazis were far-right, therefore you are a Nazi, and everybody knows that Nazis were horrible criminals, which means that you are a criminal too, for which you should be prosecuted, unless you shut up immediately and stop resisting our agenda."
He who controls the language, controls the narrative - which is why the Political Left has always put so much effort into controlling the language (including the definitions of certain strategically-important terms).
Another reason why the "Nazis were far-right" meme is of such strategic importance to the Political Left is because for as long as a lot of people continue believing that “Nazis were far-RIGHT, therefore Political Right are like Nazis”, then their political affiliation decisions will be strongly influenced by the _very_ highly-persuasive message “everybody, who considers themselves to be decent and moral people, must reject Nazism by always opposing the Political Right and supporting the Political Left”.
Gintas Vikelis, which Baltic country are you or your ancestors from?
maybe the better conclusion is that what is right and left isn't as well defined as we are led to believe
@@rocketpig1914 No, the original definition (based primarily on economic and taxation policies) is quite clear and unambiguous. The problem is that the left-right concept is now being applied to policies that have absolutely nothing to do with economics, which causes a lot of confusion and subsequently, a lot of deeply misguided decisions.
@@gintasvilkelis2544 nah dude you need to think much more deeply about this
@@rocketpig1914 What angle, do you think, I'm missing?
ohh no seir. without bankers and the oil-defence businesses the world war wouldnt happen.... hiler is a saint comparing to them
A saint with 60 million souls on his conscience.
zeh tips
@@sophienussle1135 Small potatoes compared to the Zionist machine... which indirectly created Hitler btw.
European Imperialism? The national monopoly on trade and resources.
@@sophienussle1135 54 million souls.
this video is extremely anglocentric.
When anyone else does something of value Im sure hell talk about it. Im still waiting.
That's a fucking moronic thing to say, and three other morons agree. (Because I assume you liked your own comment like a fucking knob.) Good thing that little Anglo-centric world you love so much is fast becoming a thing of the past.
@@fuzzydunlop7928
Damn bruh your racism is showing g.
@A J This comment is four years old and the comment to which I responded belonged to someone who managed to be so toxic their YT account no longer exists. So you don't really have the right context to understand what was even being communicated.
That said, the couple centuries of British hegemony (i.e. Anglo hegemony) have been an abject and slow-burning dumpster fire. Not even the modern UK benefits from it anymore. Quick, short-lived love and a very long divorce is what we're dealing with and people are misguided enough to defend it.