Philip Kapleau Was GREAT! But What is a Roshi?
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- Опубликовано: 2 июл 2024
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My former teacher, who is a dharma heir in the Kapleau lineage, once gave a talk where he addressed the fact why Kapleau didn't have dharma transmission. In the talk he told that the real reason was that Yasutani, Kapleau's teacher, insisted that his student Eido Shimano would be placed in Rochester as an assistant teacher. Kapleau didn't want Eido Shimano to come to Rochester, because he had met Eido and he did have a bad feeling about him. Yasutani wasn't pleased for Kapleau rejecting his wish, and refused to give him inka because of this. Just wanted to add this story to the soup.
Interesting reason. If it’s true, Kapleau was right!
@@HardcoreZenI trained for 12 years in the Soto tradition, and practiced shikan-taza. But when it became time to actually find a sangha and teacher, the only center that offered that in my area was a Sanbo Kyodan center. I've read 3 Pillars of Zen, and disliked the emphasis on enlightenment and counting breaths. Other then that, they practice the same way the Soto center I attended does, only adding koan practice as well. At this Sanbo Kyodan center NOBODY uses honorifics. The 2 teachers (everyone there actually) Insists on being addressed by their first names.
But, I'm curious about what you would do if you were in my position. Having practiced Soto style on your own for 12 years, then finding the only place that offers sesshin, dokusan, and weekly zazenkai was Sanbo Kyodan. Would you go? Should I go...?
its all about money, yasutani was miffed kapleau didn't cut him in for kapleau's book royalties (3 pillars of zen) which were substantial, much more interesting is the fight that went on that got toni packer expelled, brutal !
I think this means that Master Roshi from DBZ was a transmitted zen teacher
In Japanese, he's called Muten Roshi, which translates to Master Muten. "Master Roshi" really is nonsensical, haha! Same for "Master Shifu" from Kung Fu Panda, since shifu is Mandarin Chinese for master.
Handsome Brad Warner Roshi has quite a ring to it! 😂
stop watching "dramas" they distort your sense of reality. as a side note, being ugly is a transmission requirement
It would be a great gag to put it as his name on his next book. Please do!
Brad, Three Pillars of Zen was certainly one of the first books I read back in 1978. It reinforced the enlightenment model that drove me thru the next 30 years. As I have previously written to you, the quest led to some pretty dark places in the quest for the "peak experience". I hope others did not make the same mistake. Gassho, Stephen
"the quest for the "peak experience".
Kensho turns us towards the fundamental reality that isnt moved by ups and downs....peaks and valleys.
I trained at the Rochester Zen Center for a few years back in the 1970s. I was not a formal student of his, but rather of his chosen successor at the time, Toni Packer. Kapleau never called himself Roshi that I know of. His students insisted upon using the title. As someone mentioned, it was likely the editor or publisher who insisted on the Roshi part to boost sales. I watched Brad's interview with CNN years ago. Brad 'allowed' CNN to introduce him as a 'zen master'. Brad did not correct CNN. Allowing yourself to be called 'zen master' seems at least as icky as Roshi. Philip Kapleau was a fantastic guy, even though I disagreed with him on a number of points. He came to Georgia and spent a month or so with a friend of mine who had just lost his son to cancer.
There’s a difference between a quick interview (less than a minute, I think) on tv & three books in multiple editions on shelves for decades. It does seem like Kapleau was a genuinely good guy.
toni packer went to his funeral reluctantly, she really felt burnt by the way he treated her prior to her "expulsion" and being somewhat acquainted with what went on, i am not surprised
@@osip7315 Did you speak directly with Toni at Kapleau's funeral? Toni and P.K. had reconciled several years before his death. He even visited the Springwater Center. I never heard Toni say anything about being hurt or angry about their split. P.K. helped her make the transition to her own center---she was not expelled. She told P.K. (and the sangha) that she didn't feel she could continue to teach within the framework of the R.Z.C. She and I had several personal discussions about the reasons for the split. She became more iconoclastic after reading and listening to J. Krishnamurti. P.K. and the Zen Center had a decidedly 'religious' take on Zen. I heard P.K. and one of the monks say that the Mahayanna Bodhisatvas were not only symbolic, but actual, real entities
@@zenmite i didn't go to the funeral, but i did hear her honest opinion on the subject earlier, she was quite capable of putting up a "front" rather than expressing her real views and btw kapleau told her to leave, she was very adverse to social friction because of her wartime experience.
@@osip7315 Cool. I wonder if we know one another? I was a member at springwater for several years after leaving RZC.
This is probably hard for Westerners to understand. In Sufism/Islam, you don't get to call yourself a Master or Shaykh (in the spiritual sense). There is also the idea of the silsilah/isnad or chain, which connects you to the previous teacher, which is usually written. They give you ijaza, a license to teach, or idhn, the permission to lead people on the spiritual path. There is also the idea that it is dangerous for you spiritually if you make claims to be an inheritor to a spiritual lineage. Many Sufis in the West who went off track have a tenuous connection to tradition and didn't actually receive transmission and permission to teach.
Interesting! So it seems like they have a similar system to Zen.
but lots of them seem to call themselves shaykh - or allow themselves to be called shaykh - and they seem to insist on 'lineage' - are you thinking of the likes of schuon among those in the west? - i'm just interested (but do have doubts about the so-called 'traditionalists' or perennialists on account of their apparent elitism)
A succession of Brad clarification videos that inadvertently offend the followers of another two lineages on top of the last offence
Sadly in this day and age it seems Brad, but people don't want to either hear the full story or understand the full story. They would rather just have an emotional reaction to stuff online so they can rant.
I listened to the whole video yesterday and you were not putting down Kapleau Roshi as practitioner, but rather pointing out the issue around is authorization as a teacher. Shit, anyone can be a teacher -- because wipes their own ass, they can be a teacher to other of doing just that.
I think people need to chill out a bit and first listen before going all nutty.
I suspect Brad knows exactly what he is doing.
I met Philip Kapleau in May of 1984 (before I met Tim McCarthy) when I was living near Mantua OH. His book "The Three Pillars of Zen" was one of the books on Buddhism you could borrow from the Ravenna public library. It was my first real life experience with zen. I asked him the stupid question of "How close am I to enlightenment." and he simply silenced the question. My father was not happy because I turned down doing overtime work on a Saturday that week. But, if I did overtime work that week, I wouldn't be talking about it today, would I?
You met Philip Kapleau? I AM NOT WORTHY!!!!
@@HardcoreZen Not only that Brad, but when I attended his talk, he forgot what a certain master said in one of the koans, and I was able to tell him what he said from memory (I read books on zen and had memorized that one). Philip Kapleau was impressed and asked me if I wanted to come up an finish teaching the class. So hell yeah, even though I no longer remember the exact koan he was referencing, you are not worthy!
Similar thing happened to me when I was at the Cleveland Buddhist temple and Eido Roshi was a visiting teacher. He asked a question about a "Taoist" poem which (I still remember) was which line in the poem is the most problematic. I immediately answered that the poem says that what it is describing is nameless, yet gives it the name "The Tao" which happened to be the correct answer. So Eido said that I won some calligraphy thing he was passing out to whoever could answer the question. However, Rev. Ogui put a stop to it by saying that we shouldn't honor students who are too intellectual.
@@elzoog Great stories!
I’ve met a number of people, just through living ordinary life, who were most assuredly Zen masters. Though they themselves perhaps didn’t know it. I’ve also studied Zen at Zen Studies Institute in NYC and met real Zen Masters. And they were notably mediocre. So I don’t think it means too much at the end of the day. And if it doesn’t mean too much, people should just call themselves what they want.
I can relate as this happens many times in martial arts. I train jiu jitsu and there’s lineage when a black belt promotes another person to black belt. (Example: Gracie family brought Jiu Jitsu to America. Our teachers lineage goes Gracie>Gurgel>Garcia>Ables>Lyons…the last being my teacher Chelsah Lyons). One black belt to another. Many times people will open Jiu Jitsu schools and put Gracie all over the mats but never set foot in a Gracie gym. But if you check their lineage you quickly discover they trained from Bobby who gave classes out of his RV and never seen or trained with a Gracie.
I found your mention of Toni Packer quite interesting, and was prompted to do more reading about her. I enjoy your videos, Brad, but honestly I do not understand the purpose of much of the complicated zen/buddhist philosophy you talk about. I understand (somewhat) the purpose and potential benefits of meditation. It sounds like Packer went somewhat in the direction of eschewing the traditional trappings and beliefs to focus more directly on the meditative aspect? I would like to hear more sometime your thoughts on the role of meditation in zen versus the more intellectually-oriented (writing, discussing, philosophy, etc.) side of zen.
Hey Brad love this series
Loved it but 3 Pillars of Zen was a bit confusing for me when I read it 30 years ago.
Incidentally, Rochester Zen Center is about the only place I think a person can go to apply for ordination. Which is great, but somehow odd.
Another great video Brad! ❤You’re a handsome guy!
My former teacher, who I really respected and still do, actually interacted with you at RZC (he was very close to Kapleau). I eventually left my former center here in NC for a few reasons … Kapleau’s lineage is essentially dead, and I never felt right about his own use of a title not earned. Plus they (Sanbo) stress koans as practice, which never felt right to me. They also see Soto Zen as the “Cult of Dogen”, and really seem to mostly embrace other Sanbo teachers. I just never felt at home there … as nice as everyone was. But it was a fine place to start!
Lineage (outside of bloodlines) derives from the tradition of apprenticeship, the traditional way of transmitting knowledge, when the majority of people were illiterate.
It is true that medical surgeons maintain the tradition of apprenticeship, because extensive oversight is required. How many Roshi spend a lot of time watching their students teach? (I bow to those who do.)
And that brings us back to the old observation that the best students do not always make the best teachers.
I wanted to show my support for “Handsome Brad Warner” on the book covers.
Once upon a time the criteria for Buddhist transmission was to verify that the student had reached enlightenment. But those days have long since passed. Now transmission seems to be associated with a permission to teach, or to set up one's own temple, or to publish books using the title Roshi.
Was the form of transmission related to enlightenment ever a requirement for teaching, rather than for establishing a traceable line of enlightened masters? Buddha asked Ānanda to teach prior to Ānanda's enlightenment.
This whole topic is one sticky wicket!
'Sticky wicket'...a very English phrase, does that translate into American?
@@zfid Well then just think of it as a sticky thicket.
@JimTempleman I think you elucidated the problem very succinctly but was merely amused by the idiom. Indeed there are many phrases in cricket which can apply to situations in life and have the advantage of being slightly oblique which offers a 'feel' rather than an exactitude. "Corridor of uncertainty" comes to mind
@@zfid My mum was originally British, but dad was America & I was raised around Washington DC. But its funny how much my mother's vocabulary seeped into my own.
"Once upon a time the criteria for Buddhist transmission was to verify that the student had reached enlightenment. But those days have long since passed."
Yes...Buddhism in Japan is all but dead and has been since the Meiji Restoration in the late 1800s. There was a movement called the 'haibutsu kishaku' which led to the destruction of thousands of Buddhist temples and the expulsion of countless monks. The government deliberately tried to destroy the religion in favor of State Shinto...and they succeeded.
In China, something similar happened with the rise of Communism. But there is a resurgence going on with temples being re-built by Chinese communities all over the world...even in Canada. Look up the 'Wutai Shan Buddhist Garden' in Ontario.
Its truly gigantic!
Hey handsome, don't know if you'd be interested, but Remco has a new fretless video that's pretty cool.
People probably got mad a the “phony” moniker in the title; and being lumped in with ‘Master Rama’.
My local center is in Kapleau’s lineage; I wouldn’t bother to go because of the hypochondria and the fact that you must pay for an orientation before you can sit with the sangha in person. That said, Three Pillars of Zen was the first book I read on the subject, and I liked it as an introduction.
I would buy a shirt that said: Thrill Seeker seeking Handsome Roshi
That's almost worth buying the shirt and giving it to Brad as a gift!
HA!
I would buy that merch. 😂
Don’t worry about offending people people need to stop their egos
Regarding Philip Kapleau:
How do you know that it wasn't his publisher who insisted on calling him handsome?
They won’t do something like that without the author’s explicit and clear consent.
@@HardcoreZen And you believe that held true back in 1966. -That's reassuring.
@@JimTempleman Probably.
The word 'rōshi' is short for 'row ship', which means captain. So rōshi means captain 😇
On your next book, don't have 'Brad Warner' on the cover. You should use 'Dr. Handsome.'
Handsome!
you should call your next book “philip kapleau was a massive phony! (and other hot takes on zen in america)” by handsome doctor brad warner
I knew there was going to be a sh*tstorm when I saw the title of the video yesterday. You are certainly correct about him not being a transmitted teacher. The title saying "fake Zen Masters" with a pic of Kapleau raised my eyebrow a bit but I chalked it up to a case of clickbait.
As to the "handshake thing" in spirituality, you can become an ordained minister for free through the Universal Life Church. If however, you want to get a doctorate of divinity degree, they will charge you about $30.
Keep ‘keeping it real’, Dude.
Sambo's! There was still one in Santa Barbara until 2020, when the name changed in the wake of the George Floyd protests. It was briefly called "Peace and Love" and then changed to Chad's.
Forgive me, but all this made me think of a funny idea of a skit:
The Original Buddha doesn't arrive until the modern day, and must rely n RUclips & other social media to spread the word.
Of course he would start by founding a physical Sanga around himself to test & verify that he could explain things clearly to his followers.
But it's hard to imagine the up hill battle of going global, online, in today's world.
So much friction and noise. So little patience, respects (much less reverence), and equanimity.
And we call this progress?
Good thing he came when he did.
As long as I can remember, people in the US would ask themselves, what if Jesus reappeared today, (but not as the final judgement). But that is viewed more in terms of would each person be willing to listen and take what he said to heart. Today, that would be the easy part. Getting through all of the noise & friction would be the hardest part.
And so I conclude that we all need to calm down and listen carefully to each other with an open mind. & Brad's channel is far better than most at doing that.
"The Original Buddha doesn't arrive until the modern day..."
How many people existed in ancient India...maybe a hundred thousand compared to today's billion. Everything today is diluted by the sheer weight of numbers.
@@Teller3448 (The sheer weight of numbers)
x (Communications at the speed of light)
x (The level of networked interconnectivity)
===================================
An overwhelming potential for good & bad.
I feel like the Buddha wouldn't do anything to "spread the word". He'll just do his thing on his own and those who learned about what he does and want to follow will have to go seek him out.
@@deborah3783 I see your point. That's what Bodhidharma did.
But what about the Bodhisattva Vow of:
"I vow to deliver innumerable sentient beings."
Would he be missing out on a golden opportunity?
But my real point is about how much more accepting people were back then.
We're so inundated with sales pitches that we keep looking for ways to tune people out.
@@JimTempleman "We're so inundated with sales pitches that we keep looking for ways to tune people out."
Imagine if there was a law prohibiting advertisers from broadcasting images of anything other than what they are selling. That would cut the pitches by 80% at least.
I only watch for the Venerable Ziggy. I don't know who this Brad guy is.
Please stop being stingy and give Ziggy dharma transmission. Ziggy has the Buddha Nature, we can all see it.
Kapleau did not receive inka, the “formal seal” of his teacher.
And he never claimed to have received inka.
The purpose of inka is to ensure that the mind-seal of enlightenment is passed from teacher to teacher, all the way back to the Buddha.
But the history of Zen is full of irregularities.
And Zen Masters still call themselves Roshi.
Kapleau was unusual in that respect.
He never called himself Roshi.
Except the book covers, which were out of character: some kind of mistake, presumably.
Phony is not a good term.
Especially, using it for Awakened beings.
Hinduism warns against it: Vaisnava Aparadha.
the lineage transmission (shiho, shisho) is a Chinese cunfucian instituition transfered to Japan and had the only function to transfer the chinese imperial rule, also a totally nonsense in Western culture and way of life
Why is it useless to know your teacher's lineage?
@@HardcoreZen "Why is it useless to know your teacher's lineage?"
Because any individual teacher (esp in the modern era) has a low probability of being superior to the teachings of the classic source texts.
And a high probability of subverting those source teachings with their own personal distortions...like Nishijima's theory of balancing the autonomic nervous system.
You should go after Shinko Roshi at Great Mountain Zen Center in Berthoud CO. Total phony
So wait, you’re saying you want to fight one of Kapleau’s students?! This has gone too far.
I was not the least bit bothered by your video, but you did choose to title it TWO PHONY ZEN MASTERS and proceed to talk about two particular people. It is not crazy to infer that the two people you talked about are the people you were referring to in the title.
Was he a phony? Don’t know and don’t care. He said some crazy shit in his books, imo.
If you learned e.g. programming but did not complete any exam or certification, you still could call yourself a programmer and you would be hired for a job given you pass a technical interview. Because you can, you know, program. I think this is all that matters. Certificates are not a guarantee of skill or virtue. I know where you are coming from regarding calling oneself a Roshi, you would not do this - but Kapleu did for some time. Well, you do not eat meat now, but you probably did for some time in the past. And let me tell you... That's okay both ways.
not a roshi because of Eido... narcissists are a great stain on any group...
So sensitive...
Calling an enlightened sage phony?
It would be nice if people watched the videos before commenting, But thank you for your input. More comments help my videos get more views!
@@HardcoreZen
These times refer to THAT OTHER VIDEO.
0:00 "Today I wanted to talk about phony Zen masters"
0:42 "I am starting out the chapter talking about a couple of phony Zen Masters, two phony American Zen Masters. And when I was researching this I could only actually come up with two phony American Zen Masters...The two are Philip Kapleau Roshi and Zen Master Rama"
9:32 "That doesn't mean that he was a complete fraud you know. So that's a this is kind of a fine line. He was a fraud in the sense that he was not telling the truth about his transmission, Dharma transmission, but he wasn't just a complete phony."
@@williamvarado1111 Wow. You REALLY don't pay attention!
To a certain extent you apologise.
Best way to apologise is to take it down.
Where's the drama in that???
No need.
I’m only half way through the video but I just want to say FATHER O’MALLY was a DAMN FINE Catholic priest even without ordination he was a better priest than ten Protestants all put together. Just had to get that off my chest lassie.
As Will Smith would say, keep O’mallys name out your mouth lad.
Kapleau is a fence. Jump.
you are trump zen