P-47 WWII Combat Study results - Engagement Range is the most important parameter in aerial combat.

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  • Опубликовано: 4 дек 2024
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Комментарии • 97

  • @keithallver2450
    @keithallver2450 День назад +56

    The P-51 seems to get all the glory when in reality the P-47 was the real asskicker.

    • @arctic_shrew_87
      @arctic_shrew_87 День назад +6

      That is because the P-47 is ugly AF compared to the clean lines of the P-51

    • @External2737
      @External2737 День назад +7

      More as end of the war, extreme range was required and everything else was pushed to a secondary role.

    • @External2737
      @External2737 День назад +10

      As also noted in the video, a P-47 burned 78% more fuel per mission than the P-51.
      Unfortunately, war often reduces to logistics.

    • @jamiebusch9406
      @jamiebusch9406 21 час назад +1

      Because the mustang is just so beautiful..

    • @classicalextremism
      @classicalextremism 21 час назад +15

      Its also to cover up some Air Force big wig butts. Greg's covered this in detail, the 47s COULD have been doing escort missions over mainland Europe all the way in and back, but prewar and early war doctrine prevented it. The Thunderbolts were plumbed for drop tanks, but doctrine forbid their development and use. They felt the bombers could be self escorting and always get through. When they added escorts they covered their mistake by creating the myth of the Mustang as the only option. Saying they couldn't have escorted bombers before its arrival.
      The commanders in Australia flipped a wig, and immediately had Australian factories build a drop tank system for the Pacific P-47 air wings when they were delivered. They also requested extra fuel pumps to deal with high altitude pressurization issues. It was entirely possible, but the careerists had jobs to save.

  • @ammarchetta
    @ammarchetta 21 час назад +33

    The channel "Greg's Airplanes and Automobiles" did a great multi part series on the P-47 if anyone is interested

    • @keithdubose2150
      @keithdubose2150 16 часов назад +3

      ++++ this , I really enjoy Greg's P47 series

    • @556m4
      @556m4 15 часов назад

      @@ammarchetta That’s a great channel, I concur.

    • @TRUMP_WAS_RIGHT_ABOUT_EVRYTHNG
      @TRUMP_WAS_RIGHT_ABOUT_EVRYTHNG 15 часов назад

      absolutely the greatest ww2 plane content creator ive had the pleasure to learn from over the last 5 years. hes def my number one, WW2 bombers is my 2nd, 2 different types of content but both topo notch. ed nash is very good too, more humor in eds.

    • @tq9765
      @tq9765 6 часов назад

      And Greg explained in detail the fake narrative about P-47's limited range over Europe. How come P-47s had the range over New Guinea and were incapable over Europe 0:36 .
      The truth of the Bombing Mafia is appalling.

    • @primmakinsofis614
      @primmakinsofis614 4 часа назад

      Except for his "Bomber Mafia" claim regarding drop tank availability for the P-47. Those are complete bunk as the full historical document record amply shows.

  • @johnbuchman4854
    @johnbuchman4854 День назад +12

    Very much looking forward to your forward facing radar video!

  • @blue04mx53
    @blue04mx53 20 часов назад +4

    I had no idea that forward ranging radar was even a thing in WW2. I learn a lot from these videos.

    • @Knuck_Knucks
      @Knuck_Knucks 18 часов назад

      No Ship! I'll be looking forward to that video. 🐿

    • @givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935
      @givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 16 часов назад

      I think it featured in the immediate post war fighters, it was in the black plastic slight bulge on the top of the F-86’s nose air intake.

    • @lorrinbarth1969
      @lorrinbarth1969 13 часов назад

      It was a recommendation that wasn't implemented during WWII. Some US fighters late in the war had tail warning radar.

    • @rare_kumiko
      @rare_kumiko 12 часов назад

      I can think of the AN/APS-6 as used on the F6F-5N (maybe others). The radar had various modes (B-scope and O-scope) for long range search, and a G-scope for gunsight mode in which you'd see the enemy plane as a horizontal line, from the pilot's POV (so if it was above and to the right of the centre of the scope, it was the same from the pilot's point of view), and the range was determined by the length of the line (grew longer as the enemy got closer). When the line fit between two other lines in the centre of the scope, it meant the enemy plane was at the optimal firing range.

    • @givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935
      @givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 12 часов назад

      @ Airborne interception radar is totally different, ranging radar simply gave distance and integrated with the gyro gunsight or HUD to display the computed aiming point for hitting the enemy aircraft.

  • @BoomVang
    @BoomVang 19 часов назад +8

    The p47 did not have a fuel consumption or range problem. Even the early models could escort bombers all the way using nonstandard drop tanks that were maliciously banned by command wanting to prove B17 did not require escorts. This is meticulously proven in "P-47 Thunderbolt Pt. 6 Range, Deceit and Treachery.", one of the most heartbreaking videos about ww2 given the massive bomber losses.

    • @emilrydstrm3944
      @emilrydstrm3944 12 часов назад

      That video is flawed. The p-47 did not have the internal fuel to do escort missions to Berlin and back. It doesn't even matter how many fuel tanks you strap to it. Also the tanks greg talk about is unprezured ferry tank that don't work at escort altitudes. With the D-25 and onwards the jug got enough internal fuel to do escort to Berlin and back, but by then P-51 had taken over the escort business almost completely.

    • @MAYDAYSIMULATIONS
      @MAYDAYSIMULATIONS 6 часов назад

      @@emilrydstrm3944 ruclips.net/video/I7aGC6Sp8zQ/видео.htmlsi=_8mbk5s11ta4AHKS

    • @primmakinsofis614
      @primmakinsofis614 4 часа назад

      _The p47 did not have a fuel consumption or range problem._
      With no external load and in maximum air range cruise condition, how many air miles per gallon did the P-47D-25 achieve? How many did the P-38J achieve? How many did the P-51D achieve?
      Are you asserting there were no substantive differences in inherent fuel efficiency between the aircraft?

    • @MAYDAYSIMULATIONS
      @MAYDAYSIMULATIONS 3 часа назад

      @@primmakinsofis614 All wwii piston engined planes had a fuel consumption problem. The question was did the airframe support the fuel needed and still retain a reasonable fighting capability. Obviously bigger planes took more gas so the mileage isn't the question, it's the combat range. The p51 generally went further but with a 200gal centerline drop tank 305 internal a p47 thirsty as it was had over 500 gals to work with providing a radius of 450 miles. This is right out of the manual. The 5th airforce did this on site in weeks not months and the 8th "chose" to twiddle there fingers and then blame it on the plane....Not all that surprising as the very individual that supported banning drop tanks on fighters was now the head of the 8th airforce.

  • @MAYDAYSIMULATIONS
    @MAYDAYSIMULATIONS День назад +13

    How many German fighters were "gifted" an easy escape from P47's in 1943 due to the 8ths 18,000 ft restriction not allowing them to give chase and greatly hampering its ability to destroy aircraft until Jimmy Doolittle in Feb of '44. That would be an interesting deep dive if such documentation exist. Also if the 8 fifty cal's of the P47 led to higher german pilot attrition vs the p51's 4 and 6 gun arrangement as there is a big difference between a pilot killed in action and one that lands a damaged plane just to go back up the next day in a new plane.

    • @givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935
      @givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 16 часов назад

      That height and below would give the best performance from the struggling Me/Bf 109 and the Fw 190A engines, the P-47 and P-51’s significantly superior performance at very high altitude would be lost and the extra induction system weight would be a non productive disadvantage. Discouraging combat with the Fw 190 at its optimum altitude was insightful.
      Climbing back up more than 7,000 feet in the rarified upper atmosphere especially for a heavy P-47 would ruinously impact the marginal range of the fighters which already had to arrive and depart in relays to fully reach out as far as the deepest penetration bombing raids, they might well have needed to return directly.

    • @MAYDAYSIMULATIONS
      @MAYDAYSIMULATIONS 5 часов назад

      @@givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 This may have sounded logical in 1940 but in practice it was a pretty terrible form of escort. I dont think there is any debate that the Doolittle doctrine of us fighters detaching and ranging out to attack German fighters was vastly more effective. And a better use of fuel....The question was how much more attrition would it have caused. What I hear you saying is that it's better to sacrifice B17's Rayher than risk fighter planes engage in a fair fight. And your assuming B17 were always at some altitude well above where german planes performed well. They werent.

    • @givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935
      @givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 4 часа назад

      @@MAYDAYSIMULATIONS The U.S. heavy bombers were all two stage turbo charger and engine rear supercharger with intercooling equipped. They nearly always flew at or above 25.000 feet in order to maximise their speed and minimise the overall performance of the enemy fighters. The most dangerous Luftwaffe single engined fighter was the heavily armed Fw 190A but it was uncompetitive against American fighters at that altitude having only a single stage two speed supercharger, its peak performance was much lower, about this quoted 18,000 feet or slightly lower.
      It is as simple as comparing power vs height graphs. At 25,000 feet a 190 could only engage the bombers, they struggled to climb above them in order to plan their attack and were easy meat for the P-47s and P-51s which were allowed to range ahead by General Jimmy Doolittle. 190s at 18,000 feet climbing to attack the protected bomber formation had missed the bus, creeping on up, ultimately at perhaps 500 feet per minute, far above their supercharger second speed’s _full throttle height_ they could only be a threat to a distant following bomber wave. 25,000 and above was higher than the P-51’s optimum height but the spread in the power output compared to that of the German fighters was vast. The advantage of the continuously variable speed turbocharger P-47 kept increasing with higher altitudes.
      Ranging American fighters were most effective attacking Luftwaffe formations at or above the bomber’s height, they were the threat and they were at a huge performance disadvantage at that height.
      A better insight can be gained by reading professional pilot study material, relevant here would be airframes and engines, flight planning, meteorology (weather) and (larger aircraft sophistication) performance.

  • @kidmohair8151
    @kidmohair8151 День назад +8

    i suspect the P 47 was originally thought of as, and maybe designed to be, a bomber killer,
    not an escort.
    it also seems to have played the Hurricane to the P 51's Spitfire.
    essential, but unsung.

    • @GreenBlueWalkthrough
      @GreenBlueWalkthrough 23 часа назад

      Which it's known today as the first multirole heavly slated attack plane... Huince why the a-10 got it's name the only other US aircraft to get the name thundbolt... As bioth are insaly good attackers as long as your not wanting them to rush over a target and level bomb bomb they rush home... But unblike the P-41 which was "just" great at dog fighting the A-10 is the king of it being capble of BVR if the enemy comes to them and the A-10 can dodge all their BVR missles... Also I would think the A-10 is much slower then the P-41 but the A-10 has much better manuverble espacly at low speeds... So yeah it could be the uSAF has always been absated with a single type of plane at a time despite needing all of them at a time... So it hates planes that are not that thing...

    • @tvgerbil1984
      @tvgerbil1984 12 часов назад

      The early variants of the P-47 didn't have high rate of climb which was not that great for a bomber interceptor. The definitive variant P-47D however had much improved rate of climb, getting close to the P-51D and making it a great bomber interceptor.

    • @kenneth9874
      @kenneth9874 7 часов назад

      The P47's were actually faster at altitude than p51's....but the p51's were much cheaper to buy

  • @kenneth9874
    @kenneth9874 7 часов назад +1

    One very telling statistic is that the top ten p47 aces all survived the war in spite of facing the luftwaffe when they were strongest and the many ground attack missions.

  • @procabAD
    @procabAD 23 часа назад +12

    👍Gabby Gabreski likes this video.

    • @darylmorning
      @darylmorning 19 часов назад

      He had issues with distances too, like altitude... a correlation?

    • @markpaul-ym5wg
      @markpaul-ym5wg 10 часов назад

      He had 28 kills.

  • @luvr381
    @luvr381 День назад +6

    A lot of the P-47s trade-offs were to accommodate the turbocharger for high altitude performance.

    • @givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935
      @givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 15 часов назад

      The P-47 turbo-supercharging was of course multi staged with exhaust gas and two way air intake ducting leading all the way back to the rear fuselage turbocharger stage and then the vital intercooling and its ducting added even more weight and more bulk.

  • @martinricardo4503
    @martinricardo4503 День назад +6

    P-47Ns outranged P-51s. Seems that the range estimation errors was likely common to all USAAF pilots and gunners.

  • @rare_kumiko
    @rare_kumiko 12 часов назад +1

    Curious on the claim that the P-47N "almost closed the range gap with the Mustang". My understanding was that the P-47N was the longest-ranged single-engined fighter of the war.

  • @g412bb
    @g412bb День назад +2

    The P-47 was the better multitool but also the most expensive tool. Once it was clear that cheaper alternatives that would do the job were avaliable they got more preferred.

  • @jessicaberry3488
    @jessicaberry3488 День назад +2

    Excellent as always.

  • @neilwilson5785
    @neilwilson5785 23 часа назад +6

    If you read the accounts of WW2 fighter pilots, the real winners could get up very close and astern of the enemy aeroplane. Then they would fire a burst which would usually be decisive. Most other tactics didn't work.

  • @agdgdgwngo
    @agdgdgwngo 22 часа назад +4

    I really love the P 47 but you can't fight physics. As powerful as it is, as well armed and resilient it, it had very little chance of outurning or outclimbing a 109 or 190. The kills it did get was probably down to already being up at altitude while the Luftwaffe fighters were climbing, and primarily after the bombers. Size matters too, the Jug being so big means it's an easier target to hit and more visible, contrast this to the 109 which for a WW2 fighter is a pretty small plane.

    • @RobinWhidden
      @RobinWhidden 19 часов назад +1

      Neither did the wildcat, but..

    • @BoomVang
      @BoomVang 19 часов назад +3

      That's voodoo physics; the p47 could out climb and out turn fw190 under many conditions. It looks deceptively fat and heavy from the side due to massive air pipes to and from big turbo in the tail, and the exhaust was piped internally back to tail. So what if those pipes took a bullet? View p47 from the front or top, and in detail for various airscoops and it is sleek. The wings are thin and elliptical. It used new NACA findings to be much more aerodynamic than p38.

  • @michaelpabian1672
    @michaelpabian1672 День назад +8

    Your firing range logic would apply to any 50 cal US fighter. The Mustang would be worse as it had 6 guns with the P38 better as rounds didn’t converge.

  • @JosephDavis-l7f
    @JosephDavis-l7f 21 час назад +1

    Another outstanding video!

  • @davidstrother496
    @davidstrother496 19 часов назад +3

    The most successful pilots in the USAAF were those that closed to effective range, regardless of the type of aircraft they were flying.

    • @tq9765
      @tq9765 6 часов назад +1

      That's exactly what experienced Polish pilots done during the Battle of Britain (e.g. famous 303 FS)

  • @mickmegson6241
    @mickmegson6241 День назад +6

    You might consider adding "and Fighters" to the channel name as you cover them so much. This is not a criticism, I enjoy your videos.

    • @556m4
      @556m4 День назад +1

      Why are you criticizing him ? Do you not enjoy the videos ? (Just breaking your chops)

    • @givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935
      @givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 15 часов назад

      For the last year they all became fighter-bombers.

  • @MrLemonbaby
    @MrLemonbaby 15 часов назад +1

    Boy, I did enjoy this vid. I've always loved the p-47 (a love unrequited unfortunately)
    The P-51 gleaned much glory because its range could keep it in the fight at longer distances. But I read on another sight that the P-47 "could" had drop tanks early on but the head of the RAF, Portal, I think, said drop tanks wouldn't work. End of story for many months.
    Anyone know anything about this?

  • @michaelbizon444
    @michaelbizon444 18 часов назад +3

    P-47 was a tank.

  • @pistolpete6321
    @pistolpete6321 20 часов назад +1

    Very interesting!

  • @genreynolds6685
    @genreynolds6685 20 часов назад

    Will look forward to the video on gun-ranging radar. Liked this video a lot.
    In deflection shooting, if the range estimate is off, the bullets will be nowhere close to the target, as well as being too dispersed, even if ballistic drop isn’t important.

  • @FredHaferkamp
    @FredHaferkamp 3 часа назад

    The 47 was a devastating platform. 8 50s, bombs and rockets. Could take incredible punishment and still fly.
    The 51 was water cooled , was easy to knock down.
    According to what I've read. But it handled better in dogfight

  • @CaoimhinOMaol
    @CaoimhinOMaol 13 часов назад

    By any chance a video on thr P-47 VLR missions out of the Marianas and Ie Shima ? 318th operated with N models .

  • @ned900
    @ned900 8 часов назад

    I love this content

  • @streamofconsciousness5826
    @streamofconsciousness5826 19 часов назад +2

    Shooting guns is a Touch thing, all the addon's help but there is no time for most of that, you have to just know where and when to shoot. These guys engaged the enemy 20 - 40 times if they survived that long, a steep learning curve of what must be a very exhilarating and noisy moment with not a lot of time(s) to hone your skills.

    • @givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935
      @givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 15 часов назад +1

      The allied fighters had rate gyro gunsights by 1944, the target deflection lead was displayed assuming that the range was accurate, if it wasn’t it would miss too.

  • @tq9765
    @tq9765 5 часов назад

    @wwiiusbombers You are the voice of wwiibombers so could you think of producing one video about unnecessary losses due to the Bombing Mafia decissions regarding P-47's tactics and external tanks? I think it would be great to hear you and Greg about two sides of the same coin. What do you think?

  • @Eric-kn4yn
    @Eric-kn4yn 20 часов назад

    Was P-47 easy/ hard to fly trainning pilots in mind.

  • @FrankJmClarke
    @FrankJmClarke 17 часов назад

    The better skills that you would have to get within 300m would as important as dispersion.

  • @billkew5385
    @billkew5385 23 часа назад

    What percentage of fighters carried gun cameras?

  • @Tanker4202
    @Tanker4202 7 часов назад

    That German fighters were able to escape from P-47's isn't relevant if the mission of the P-47 was to escort bombers, and the bombers made it to the target and home.
    This could mean that the German fighters were chased off and the P-47's remained close to the bombers.

  • @Joseph-i5c9t
    @Joseph-i5c9t 20 часов назад

    The pay load was huge

  • @Eric-kn4yn
    @Eric-kn4yn 21 час назад

    How was P47 acceleration

  • @Eric-kn4yn
    @Eric-kn4yn 21 час назад +1

    For usa production cost hrs to build are irrelavent compare germany but was P-47 costly to build

  • @terryvanicelli267
    @terryvanicelli267 18 часов назад

    I'm curious as to how these combat stats compare to other American fighters. Your narrative seems to imply That the escape Frequency for German airplanes Stems mostly from faulty training.

  • @chrhie
    @chrhie 9 часов назад

    A 20 mm cannon has the firepower of 3x 50 cals. The FW190 carried 4x 20 mm and 2x. 13mm . In essence, the Fw 190 had much better firepower than the p47s, also against fighters.

  • @Alex-kp2db
    @Alex-kp2db 15 часов назад

    Even with drop tanks the fact remains it burned 78% more fuel. Fuel was life blood durring the war and had to be used smartly. You have to remember people died because of lack of fuel. It was a persistant problem thru the entierty of the war.

  • @benkasminbullock
    @benkasminbullock 22 часа назад

    I have heard the story that the Polish pilots during the Battle of Britain were more effective than the British pilots because they were trained to fire at a shorter range.

  • @Eric-kn4yn
    @Eric-kn4yn 21 час назад

    Better than 190D.

  • @SoloRenegade
    @SoloRenegade 21 час назад

    P-47N also shed 3000lb of excess structure, thus losing the P-47's legendary durability, and could no longer sustain damage the way the B and D model P-47s had.

    • @wlmac
      @wlmac 16 часов назад

      Check your sources. The empty weight on the N was 1000lbs heavier than the D. I listened to a pilot who flew both in the Pacific and his take was that the N could take more damage but not quite as maneuverable as the earlier models.

    • @SoloRenegade
      @SoloRenegade 8 часов назад

      @@wlmac The final weight was more, but the structural portion was 3,000lb lighter. They added back in more fuel tanks, bigger engine, tail warning radar, etc.
      and you have no supporting evidence to claim the P-47N could take even MORE damage. Do you even know what makes the P-47D legendarily tough in the first place? Or what made the A6M legendarily weak? DO you even know the reason behind toughness and damage resistance of a given airplane? There is a VERY specific reason why a given plane is or is not damage resistance in combat. There is one primary reason, and one secondary reason for what makes a plane tough, or not.
      The P-47N/M was objectively less tough, less damage resistant, than the P-47B/D.

    • @wlmac
      @wlmac 4 часа назад

      @@SoloRenegade You just told me you don't know what structural weight means with that diatribe.

  • @RobinWhidden
    @RobinWhidden 19 часов назад

    Love the 47, it was there when it was needed, the 56th fs was in bolts and had highest kill totals, zempke, Ganesh, Johnson to name a few, zempke only went down after his 51s wings folded, funny pilots lost ratios are never discussed

  • @markenriquez1486
    @markenriquez1486 18 часов назад

    Why were they worried about fuel consumption rates? We weren't Germany or Japan...WTF?

    • @Eric-kn4yn
      @Eric-kn4yn 16 часов назад

      Combat radius.

    • @givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935
      @givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 15 часов назад

      How did the aviation gasoline get to the 8th Airforce? Even in 1943 the U-boats were slaughtering Atlantic transport vessels and their crews, The P-38s and P-47s drank more drowned civilian seamen.

  • @GreenBlueWalkthrough
    @GreenBlueWalkthrough 23 часа назад +1

    I would think it's because it's a single engine heavy fighter something that is extremely rare then and since... So whill it had the firepower it would run out of ggun quickly for a WW2 fighter and it's far to heavy and under powered to catch late any WW2 German fighters if they wanted to just leave... Unlike the Mustang and even the P-38 where the german fighters would be stuck inbn combat till they are shot down or the US fighter had to leave... Don't get me wrong the P-47 is a great airframe it's just fat and "slow"...

    • @ret7army
      @ret7army 23 часа назад +5

      The P47 had the mod of a paddle blade propellor. Robert Johnson said that prior to it when practicing v a Mk9 Spitfire that, once in a steady climb, the Spitfire would just race away. But after the paddle blade prop was installed he was able to catch and leave the Spitfire behind.
      In combat, Johnson said that no German fighter was able to escape him after that propeller was installed.

    • @givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935
      @givenfirstnamefamilyfirstn3935 15 часов назад

      Its only low performance was in climbing.

    • @ridegriff50
      @ridegriff50 3 часа назад

      @@ret7armyagreed. Once the paddle blade prop was installed it was a completely different plane