I was inactive for most of the 53 years that I was a member. I still thought that most of what I had learned was true. After reading the CES Letter and doing research and finding Mormon Stories, I had my name removed from the church records. I was very sad to realize everything about the church was a lie.
It's crazy how much the church holds us. I was inactive for 5 years and still felt it was true and I was just a sinner. I ended up becoming active again for 10 years before I finally discovered it was all a fraud and had my record removed. Wish I figured it out the first time but glad I did eventually
You're not the only one, I stopped attending in 2008 telling myself the gospel was true but the institution was flawed. Didn't find all this stuff out until 2018. A lot of pieces have fallen into place since then.
BJ, I have a similar story. I was a closeted gay BYU Student in the early 80’s. Believed the basic description of god etc but totally inactive. I started Therapy and Mormon Stories made me realize so much of my beliefs were incorrect. Resigned and came out of the closet in 2016. Happier out gay man living the last quarter of my life.
@Chris Johnson I am also gay. I came out to myself about two years after I joined the church in 1970. So, from 1972 until 2022, I was still having the internal battle. I still believed in the majority of what the church taught, except for that one area. Then, to discover the whole finding the golden plates and translation of them, the many versions of the first vision and, of course, the totally fabricated Book of Abraham. So, yes, we and so many other people were victims of the Mormon Church. I am so happy for you now that you are living your true authentic life. ❤️
I OVED your last rant!! Yes, you can’t just leave it alone. I’m 66 and just found out the facts if the Church 15 months ago. Thankfully I see a great counselor 2x a month. ❤️
John Larsen's explanation at the end of the podcast on why apostates spend energy to warn others of Mormonism is a bulls eye. The more one is into Mormonism, the more traumatic it is to apostatize from it.
Want to bet? What about the millennials who are getting married older? Or who think it's ok to drink coffee and tea or alcohol and they still attend Church. In fact a friend of mine was expecting the roof of the temple to fall in on him, it didn't, so that told him a lot. He still drinks his coffee. Goes to Church on Sundays and the new temple interview question is "do you understand the word of wisdom?" Sure you can answer Yes. You can understand it but nobody asks if you are living it...
With regards to John's rant about "leaving Mormonism but can not leave it alone," every time I am with a group of Mormons since I've left it amazes me that Mormons can only seem to talk about Mormonism. It's genuinely all they talk about with each other.
my mom told me a story of Brigham Young .He had a dream of Joseph after his death and Joseph told Brigham in the dream "sorry Brother Brigham I can't talk there's much work to be done " it's so stupid & funny thinking about it now 🤣🤣🤣
I experiance that too. Like a bunch of airheads. Even in a room of mixed relion and non religious they will dominate about Mormon stuff. Boring Mind numbing. They can't carry on an an intelligent conversation.
What do they talk about exactly? Lol I find the topics of discussion of mormon stories very interesting but I'm sure those aren't the topics being talked about by tbm's.
I was not active in the church for many years before going back and my husband also due to a long story that can’t get into here.. But we raised our kids in the church and they left it but I always had hopes that they would return. No amount of prayer brought them back. Fast forward to now and many many years invested into it and I had the bright idea that I needed to find out why I couldn’t feel good about polygamy.. Down the rabbit hole I went and read the gospel topics essays and the CES letter and much more. Having to see those things that I had never been taught growing up and after was like this bucket of water in my face! First the shock and then the disbelief and then the anger that I had been deceived and lied to.. I’ve tried to have conversations with my husband about it but at this point his mind can’t accept it.. I am at a point that I need to support him as much as I can without this destroying us and our marriage.. and then this makes me even angrier at the church because this was all them that caused this! I decided that I won’t give them any more of my thoughts than I have to because I love my husband and he comes first! But it’s good to have a support group that I can go to and this podcast is one of them! Soo I thank you John!
My favorite part of these podcasts is when John says "One last question" and it goes on for another 45 minutes. I'm not even joking, those are usually the meatiest parts, where people get the most geniune and vulnerable. 😊
I'm not getting tired of Mormon Stories and I think ex-Mormons will mostly continue watching because it's riveting. I think that we all need heroes, people with courage willing to expand their world view....because of their honesty and truthfulness. Most people live shallow lives where they're not confronted with such hard situations in life like Mormons discovering the truth of the church which is presented as the source of truth. It's like suddenly realizing that your mother, the one person you can count on to love and support you, is not really your mother, and she really doesn't care about you. The church is like this mother to Mormons. All of these stories are worthy of being made into a movie. The real story of Joseph Smith would be a fantastic movie.
So relevant to the state of this country now too. The divide is toxic and we need to find ways back to each other without de-humanizing each other. We are gutting ourselves. I’m an immigrant and I am always noticing how kind Americans are but how cruel our systems are and we give consent to that from mindlessness.
Stellar episode, as always with J-Lar and Nuancehoe. This reminded me of how I froze for awhile before being able to get rid of my garments. I knew I would never want to put them on again. Yet, the church put ideas in me that I was doing the most sacrilegious, evil and damning thing a person could ever do. When I had a chance to assess and see my autonomy within reach, I threw them in the garbage. It was cathartic and felt natural. But it took a hot minute to jump to action. I definitely froze over that, for a few weeks. The Mormon conditioning made me react unexpectedly, as I think back. It should have been easy and obvious, but it wasn't. I loved this discussion about fight/flight/freeze.
I had a similar experience. I’ve been inactive since 2007, and hadn’t worn my garments since 2009, but I held onto them until about a year ago. I knew I would never want to wear them again, but had a tremendous amount of guilt about getting rid of them.
I burned my garments in the fire place. I cried. Now I pass by the LDS Church and I smile about all the tithing I didn't spend. I've been away for 20 years. I'm free.
When I run into people like you three it makes my testimony even stronger than ever.satin and his helpers like you have been trying to destroy the lord's church ever since Joseph Smith reorganized it I'll start worrying about if it's true or not when you people stop wasting your time and energy and some of you your money.and you disappear.
Been inactive since 2016 wore garments til 2018, I kept them to "properly" dispose of them until I find out about all the lies May of 22. Threw them in the garbage literally the next day
I'm a new subscriber. I came to this channel because of Mike Rinder (ex-Scientologist). These cross-cult/religion collabs work! I'm an ex-muslim myself, but these podcasts teach me a lot, not just about my former religion (there are some eery parallels), but also about myself as a person. Thank you and keep up the good work.
Been out for awhile now but I still love this podcast. Hearing John's voice is soothing and I associate with positive things thanks to his influence in my faith crisis...also, what better way bring the truth to my friends who are still TBM than to educate myself? Love you all, keep fighting the good fight.
Fabulous session! The information on the "normalcy bias" was so eye-opening as an ex-mo. I spent 38 years in the church and leaving I thought was the hardest thing I ever did. I knew my extended family would have been devastated and it would have been easier to just stay in the church. I just couldn't do it once I knew the church was not true I had to leave. Best decision I ever made in my life! There aren't any "boogymen" out there who are going to come after you! Leaving the church frees you. It takes time.
It definitely is so scary to be the first of my siblings to leave the church. So much disappointment from my father but my wife and I just could not continue being part of the church.
@@discoveringhemet We had to leave also back in 1992. I had spent my first 38 years of my life in the church. My husband was a teenager convert and then an RM. We married in the temple, had three kids, served numerous callings, yada yada yada. When our kids were 11,9, and 7 we realized through much research over a five year period that the church indeed was not true. My extended family were upset at best and devastated at worse. But we had to be true to ourselves.
@@kkheflin3 how interesting, my wife and High School Sweetheart was a teenage convert but I was born in the Church and served a mission prior to getting sealed to her in 2005. So interesting, our timelines are kinda similar…I also was 38 with three girls, just a bit older at ages 13, 11 and 9 plus our sons at ages 4 and 2. COVID was also a big help realizing how much happier our family is without the church.
@@discoveringhemet Interesting! We do have similar timelines and situations. I lost my husband ten years after we left the church when we were only 48 (very suddenly) with three teenagers and one of my old ward members came up to me with a sweet smile and said, "NOW don't you wish you hadn't left the church and lost your covenants for an eternal family?" And then pretended to shed some tears. I was dumbstruck.....Incredible.....How cruel! So glad we got out and my children and I have all remained out!
@@kkheflin3 oh my goodness, my wife and I just read your response. Unbelievably how terrible people can be. I’m sorry for the loss of your husband, I can’t even image how hard that was for you and the kids. Thank you for sharing your story with me. 🙏🏼
youtube shorts is what brought me to you! the change in promotion has worked wonders thanks to Cara, but your interviewing, John, is what keeps viewers here! i love this channel and it’s taught me so much about the Mormon faith. love you guys and congrats on 100k!
This is one of the most helpful episodes that I have listened too. It has helped me understand the position of my family who have not discovered what I have about the church. Thank you all for all you do, I really enjoy these episodes with John and Carah. (edited for grammar)
This is brilliant, John. It makes complete sense. It also reminds me of the psychological concept of “ dread freedom”. We freeze when confronted with freedom of choice. Actually this moved on to free agency, We don’t know what to do so we wait to be commanded by prophets to act. Thanks again, John for stimulating my brain!
I just want to say I started listening in 2013 and here I am, still listening and subbed 10 years later, haha, we do exist! While I have gone through blissful periods of not thinking about the LDS church (as much) and my trauma associated with it, it's creeps or avalanches back into my life ALL the time, often when I least expect it, and I am in need of my comfort blankie, MSP. Yay on 100,000 subs!
I'm a nevermo but find this channel super interesting! I've only just started listening, so you probably talk about this further on (but I'm too impatient to wait to comment), but there's also the concept of the "sunk cost fallacy" whereby you've dedicated so much of your life (and money) to something that at a certain point it's hard to leave
I understand that feeling completely. The first time I left was because of a head injury where I lost all memory. I waited a year to be retaught but they had just lied. So I found a church that would. I was baptized and joined. But when times got hard they walked away. I fled out of Utah for religious freedom. In California I did a Babtist church for a while. Came back to Utah and saw theses backward Mormons. One family and me were the only ones that weren't Mormons in that town. Finally they got me. Right after I was babtized they shunned me. I couldn't even get a ride to church. So I moved Things were bad right away. Really bad. And it got worse and worse. After a very strong suicide attempt the Bishop admitted he had assigned his ward members to be cruel to me. Because the previouse one told him to. He said the previous one had talked to my brother When I told a counselor what my brother did as a youth the counselor told me. Your brother is probably a psyopath. The brother confessed to me that he had been calling all my bishops and mission president for 35 years. And I could not understand because on my mission I was in a car accident and sustained a head injury. I was so lost. All I understood is my people are being cruel to me. I paid for my mission in full. I did not grow up in the church. But half my life I was fully invested on it. Served in BYU Relief Society Presidency Etc. Social Security Disability records say what happened on my mission totally disabled me for life And when I got home I had to live on the streets because I could not work and church would not. I still kept going untill the act of going to church gave me such horrible flashbacks and pa Panmic attacks that would criple me for weeks One time I went Cantatinc just touching a Mormon book. The last thing that happened is when I asked the Stake President to report my brother to the Getrtal Athorities because he had been a Bishop some of the time he was doing this to me The Stake President told me if my brother didn't confess the mbers and church would go after me. I was so scarred I dissaciated All I rember is thing I better hurry and get out of this church before this happens to me again So I mailed my exit letter to SLC.
I am a Mormon cousin or a never- Mormon ally( same foundational beginnings but a totally different religious trajectory). My church has always promoted seeking out wisdom for yourself so I applaud this podcast for giving believers and non- believers a much needed platform to discuss the burning issues. Keep up the good work. The people in a culture who have their personal lives and their religious lives so intertwined as the Mormon church can get caught up when trying to separate the two when one aspect is not living up to their expectations because they cannot decipher where one starts and the other begins.
This is making me think of the Mormon father that killed his whole family. His wife had just filed for divorce and they had 5 children. The fear of abandonment, outer darkness, isolation from his church, and not “being together forever” may have been part of this thought process. The only way he could “save face” within his church, keep his family, etc. was by ending all their lives so they could be together forever. The town and police and members knew of his DV in the home and turned their back on this mom and the children. When the mom had finally had enough abuse, she filed for divorce to get away. And he, being afraid of being alone, and losing his power, made them all stay together forever. His obituary saying how great of a man he was, is completely off-base. “He was a good man, he was a Mormon” like Carah was saying. Nope. He was a Mormon AND he murdered his whole family, maybe because of his beliefs about divorce, family, and the afterlife.
I don’t listen to a ton of Mormonism related things anymore because of a “been there done that” kinda mentality but this was such a powerful episode. So glad I listened. The psychology is fascinating and the takeaway message for me is having more empathy for my own and others reactions to learning the most shocking things in life to date about the sordid history of the church. Thank you so much to you all for such a great episode.
I grew up in a very fundamentalist Baptist missionary family as a gay son, and strongly relate to this. The reflection of seeing my own silence, and the affect it’s had on others and my own internal well being (short term vs long term pain) is heavy. Thank you, I need to listen to this episode a few more times just to fully process.
John D’s quest at 2:03:45 and the John L’s answer is straight fire. I heard it yesterday working and had to come back this morning and listen again. Thanks guys
I'm a Marine, and I know training has a lot to do with it, but 90-95% of Marines don't freeze. It also helps when u r surrounded by like-individuals and what u need to do is expected.
Absolutely has to do with training. You're exposed on a regular basis to gun shots and commit actions to muscle memory so that when your brain tries to freeze the muscle memory kicks in. Same reason companies and schools have fire drills. So people dont freeze or the opposite, trample each other to death
What I want to know is what makes some people natural at NOT freezing. Like what John L. was saying about his wife freezing the first time she got groped. I punched the first time I got groped. There haven't been many attempts since. I think there's something obvious about me to predators that says, "Eff around and find out," despite being tiny? My mom has the same experience. We've smacked the crap out of or punched the few guys who've tried, and we haven't had nearly as many incidents as statistics suggest we should-especially given my frequent use of public transit for 10+ years! It's the same with an emergency. If no one else with obvious authority does it, I step in and start telling people what to do. Is it genetic? Is it how we're raised? Both?
I did not grow up with any religion Not even a Bible in the home . I overheard the mission lessons at age 14. I started going. I was so clueless and nothing made sense They were cold and excluded me
If you take a dispassionate look at the whole "Church" situation, it's pretty easy to see that social pressure is THE primary motivator, and the thing that keeps people "in line" and causes them to forever strive to be acceptable. In their minds, they tend to equate that social acceptance with "worthiness," and figure that if people are upset with them, then they must not be sufficiently worthy. And if you can keep people strapped, broke, burdened, scheduled, etc., they will tend to cause fewer "problems," ask fewer questions, and continue to try to be obedient and compliant, hoping that things will get better if they just try harder. If you give people too much latitude/freedom, they might start THINKING more, doing more research, and considering an array of options.
I'm an ex-mo, 16 years old, and since I don't have access to any other social media this youtube channel and many others help so much. Maybe one day I won't need these podcasts to cope. Just like at the beginning, the fact that people can move on is good, and the fact that this is still helping so many people is also good. Maybe one day I'll escape my house now and share on the podcast haha but for now just thank you for helping with people's faith crisis and other struggles that come from our previous mormon or non-mormon lifestyles
So, the hardest part of deconstructing my faith has been reconciling the fact that my parents raised me in a cult. I AM angry at them. My life would've been so much better had my parents, who are both smart, capable people, used those brains to leave. Instead they brainwashed me and wasted 25 years of my life. I am so angry at them for this, and I believe it's justified. My dad is still a member, working every day in the Draper temple, living the ideal homophobic, racist, sexist mormon life. I'm sure he sees me as a disappointment. I know he's disappointed me. But I didn't waste 25 years of his life.
I stayed for my Mom. I didn't want to hurt her and it cost me nothing to go to church with her, so I did. I finally left because I felt like such a fake. I found it hard to pretend belief for other church members. It was easy to pretend with Mom because she didn't really expect me to do or say more than just attending with her. When you attend regularly you are expected to accept a calling and to give testimony. I just couldn't do that. My leaving was not a rejection of the church because I had finally come to the realization that there is no god. No god = no church.
@@davidjanbaz7728I’m truly confused when they think they because the church lies that all of a sudden there’s no god at all. I kind of slightly understand.
When John was reading those verses, my Relax Reminder alert buzzed on my smart watch to let me know I needed to calm down. A physiological response. (It doesn’t even do that when I’m watching horror movies.)
I love this podcast! John Larsen describes our humanity in such a simple and illuminating way. There came a point in my life, the truth roar in my mind was louder than the people around me. Leaving was shocking, traumatic and devastating for my family. Leaving the noise I found so much bliss.
Im still a member of the church, a friend of mine sent this to me. You've given me a lot to think about. I did really like that you weren't hard on the people in the church, even though you disagree with the institution.
Another example of this is what we were taught in our active shooter training at work. If you see another co-worker, tell them to come with you to get out of the building, but if they say no, don't try to convince them, just leave. It's good to want to save people, but like you said if they freeze, they freeze, and you shouldn't risk also getting shot trying to save someone else.
@@sachamo100 It hurts for about 2 years at most, but then there is a mental and spiritual awakening that is wonderful, especially if you can find a better/ more suitable church. True spiritual depth and life in Christ/God are really worth having. Your crisis is brought about by your superior moral conscience. Believe me, you'll be fine and so glad you left. Just take your time, and please don't go back through fear. God wants love not fear.
Loved how John Larson and you all went into depth on normalcy bias. Quite a interesting phenomenon. When I left the church and religion I tried my hardest to make it appear to others, friends and family, as if everything was normal in my life even though it was one of the hardest things psychologically I had to do. Only those I saw who were also leaving religion I felt like I could talk to about my leaving religion. It was like this until years afterwards.
Brutal boldness + understanding grace. Love it! @johnlarsen1 nails it! My wife and I decided we had to leave after what we learned. We weren’t going to pull the pin from a hand grenade and then hand it off to our kids and their kids to figure out and take the flesh tearing shrapnel. It had to end with us. Once we knew, we had to make the manipulation, half-truths, and harm stop. For us, but more importantly, for them.
I live in a very difficult situation. My husband and I purchased my MOL's home and moved in with her. She and her side of the family are die hard LDS. My husband has not been a practicing Mormon since he was 14 and something occurred (he won't tell me what) that made him stop going to church and being active. Yet, he will not have his name removed from the church rolls and I think he won't do it until his mom passes. We have the upstairs and my MOL lives in the downstairs. The missionaries show up uninvited and unannounced. There's always this distance between my spouse and I and the rest of his mom's family. When I married my husband, I had promised to read the BOM and study about the religion but it's almost as weird as Scientology to me. They feel plural marriage is wrong on earth but once they're in Mormon heaven, it's okay. Nonsense.
Always love listening to this team. I'd like to expand this discussion. After talking to a lot of TBMs and ExMos, to me its pretty clear that value systems are a core element of why members continue to value and believe Mormonism. It's in that vein that I highly recommend Mormon Stories 858 - Spiral Dynamics and Mormonism Pt. 1 & 2
when your family go completely insane over your initial" questioning" and "lack of testimony", you know that leaving is going to be way worse than that.Your family is holding 2 totally contradictory things in thier head: 1) the forever family (you are now not a part of) and 2) We get a planet of our own to run, and become a god/goddess so we wouldn't be apart of our family any way. Your familyalso become literally terrified that you will "infect" other family members with your facts and valid criticism.
Maybe it is because I am a no mo, but I have never found Mormon buisness people to be more honest or ethical in fact often the opposite. 🤷♀️ maybe they treat members differently than the general public.
Anyone in power is used to a certain level of authority that does not allow others to question.. Humility goes a long way. Lots of lessons can be learned when one is humbled. I would hope that these dishonest business people that you are referring to will have their day of reckoning and learn to be honest with all people.
Wow. I'm not LDS, but this applies to everybody, I think. Once you step out of the story that everyone else is telling themselves, what is left for you?
My son was actually there in Hawaii vacationing when the missile alert came, it scared the crap out of them. They all said goodbye to there family and expressed the gratefulness for each other rented a jeep and drove to the top of the mountain. It was the scariest thing he ever went through. And his whole family changed because of it they no longer take their lives for granted.
I love that they wanted to go up the mountain for the view (reminds me of the tidal wave scene at the end of Deep Impact). After the accidental missile warning in Hawaii, there were reports of people going underground through the manholes. It made me wonder if I'd even want to be one of the few survivors.. what would even be left? Did people freeze or did they just accept the futility?
@@r3b3lutions It was a pivotal moment in his life. His wife was pregnant with there first child. Their life was just beginning and out it was a faults alarm was such a big relief. It gave them all a new outlook on life and to not take it for granted.
What was even Sadder THERE WERE NO SHELTERS NONE ON ANY OF THE ISLANDS, and in a shelter unprepared think of that form of dying... Who would survive to live in the fall out? So it changed the way you think about your life.. OR DID YOU CHANGE HOW YOU LIVE YOUR LIFE?,. SEE Death is the atomic Bomb waiting to end this life as you know it, And The FALL OUT that will last forever is the choices you make today in the form of the life jacket you Choose. Life is only a dream and death has no ending it could be worse than the fear of waiting for the bomb.
This podcast was triggering for me as I'm still going through many of these phenomena and felt like I was going into this in "real-time!" "A mind virus?" This is exactly what I felt like! John Larson is Brilliant! Talk about the Matrix! The breakdown of how we react is interesting! Thank-You, all for doing this sacred work! Much love for the insights and explanation of why we do what we do! You people ROCK! 😎♥️
I'm not Mormon. But I grew up in Idaho and the town was half Nazarene (Protestant) and the other half Mormon. The Mormons were to be envied for their tight families, successful education and business pursuits, and their social skills. AWESOME AMERICANS!! When Mormons leave, they may feel they are taking a step down joining the prevailing culture. The lonesomeness without faith and family reminds me of the lonesomeness of leaving a military career. Or maybe like leaving a gang. Who am I now? Who cares about me?
These psychological impact episodes are fantastic. This one. "Why Do ExMos seem so Angry" Etc. They really help illuminate the process we are all going through. Many more, please.
Totally agree that family members still in the church think that bad things that happen to people who leave the church is because they left. When I was going through my faith crises and beginning my deconstruction I was having health problems (likely due to the immense stress) and my mom told me that the reason I was having health problems was because I wasn't going to church and paying my tithing. 🙄
I remember "freezing" emotionally when bad news on Mormonism started showing up on the internet. Later I rationalized. Eventually I researched and left Mormonism when things became undeniable.
There’s 3 parts of why people stay in a high demand/cult organization: 1: Faith 2: Ritual 3: Community Most people can look at the evidence that refutes their faith and ignore it because they can fall back on the rituals they’ve received/continue to receive ( temple, sacrament, etc) and their strong identity linked to the community. A person has to question all (3) to be able to leave generally. Links to community is very strong and most people have a very hard time venturing out on their own.
Yes. As a young girl I went to catholic elementary school. And yes, at 6 years old I was terrified of going to hell. Top that off with a terribly chaotic home laid the seeds of my full blown panic disorder. Don't do this to your children, please! Huge reason I raised my kids out of any church. As a kid, what do you think is more impactful, fear of a "devil" or love to a "God"? Fear. You can't see either of them, how can you truly be sure God is going to save you? And to top it off we're baptized as infants and washed of our "original sin". We're born sinners and the fight to stay in God's favor is a lifelong struggle.
@@heathermcdougall8023 I have a distinct memory of having a nightmare where my dad was attacked with a knife. I woke up in a panic. I fell asleep before my prayers and thought God was sending me a message. I had a nightlight in my room until college, terrified of the dark. The devil and demons could be anywhere. I have very strong feelings about children being taught about hell. Very unnecessary. The golden rule is all you need.
The financial situation is probably a big aspect of why they stay in the Mormon community. By design, the church set it up that way to create a cohesiveness to feed the growth of the church. It would be hard to leave something that feeds you.
I think the quote " gunfight in a submarine " is the best metaphor for how I feel about working in the climate change space for some time. These concepts also help me to have patience for people who understand but do nothing!! Thankyou.
1:21:00 I'm just waiting for excommunication, but I am hoping to inspire members and exmembers to find inner spiritual power and liberation that transcends all evolutionary societal constructs. Because whatever we're doing on this planet so far is killing us all.
Excellent, thank you. I've been completely confused about humanity the last few years. This finally explained what I was trying to understand and was so confused about humans. This is finally helping me process what I was watching happen around me.
A lot of members freeze when it comes to leaving the church or having their records removed because you can always revert to that "WHAT IF?" You have a lot on the line if you're wrong for leaving. It makes sense why so many go back and forth or "can't leave it alone" when so many defense mechanisms have been programmed along with our natural psychological inclinations.
JL : "....endless f***ing torment..." JD: "you added the 'f***ing' right?" Hahahahaha love it. I will disagree with John Larsen on one point. Its been about 8 years since I first discovered MS, and have found myself constantly coming back. Especially when loved ones get to that questioning point, to remind me where I've come from, and lastly to have a good giggle while unpacking old mindsets and behaviours. Once again love the work. Thanks guys.
As far as the current listeners not being those that listened 10 years ago . . . . I guess that I am an outlier then because I was following John Before Mormon Stories launched in the "Why I Stay" days, and still follow the podcast albeit with less anger and "burn it to the ground" emotions. It is still a relevant and interesting component of my mixed faith marriage dealing with life such as it is. Thanks, John!! and Carah and John L -- you guys are my people now.......
So insightful bringing deep human response to disaster of freeze, fight,flight into context of why Mormons don't leave and how family is reacting to a faith disaster.
I just paused this video and went on Twitter. I saw this post: "We are witnessing the collapse of mankind, right in front of our very eyes. Yet we’re doing nothing."
NeverMo here.... I think it's because of the horrible ramifications of leaving not only the faith , but the family culture, family structure. Just the thought of it brings me to tears.
For those that are thinking about leaving the church, but are frozen with fear from the fallout, just do it. From my own personal experience, the good that follows totally outweighs any loss. The weight that is lifted is enormous, and you will feel so much better.
For me, I couldn't stay and align with a church that harms so many and refuses to make amends or apologize for it. When I started to question, my own family of origin became hostile and so, so angry that I would do this to THEM! Their reactions back then, and even how they still view me negatively today, made me realize how the LDS culture and indoctrination had a hand in them reacting that way. Any religion that supposedly teaches the love of Christ, yet their members behave contrary to that, is a problem, and that's something I don't want to have anything more to do with. A family of friends that you choose, who live their lives in truth and authentically, are what those who leave have to look forward to on the other side of Mormonism.
@@sachamo100 It will take a little time, around 6 moths to start to feel way better, but after a year, your life will improve unbelievably. It;s like going from slavery to freedom.
After 40 years of rejection, non support, and not being acceptance I found that what I knew in my heart to be true and the system are two different things. There is truth everywhere even in the foundations of "mormonism". I have just learned that humans make mistakes. The church has become a system of greed, falsehood, and cover up. It took me accepting what I knew in my heart, testimony of anything true for me, and growing stronger as a person to say NO MORE to the bad behavior of the members.
John Larson, your exposition on the value of extending grace to those who remain, was distinctly moving. I believe, as it sounds like you believe, that we're all actually doing the best our brains will allow us to do. Deliberately perceiving others with that spirit of grace is a deeply valuable concept which you expressed beautifully.
I'm finally in the ex-Mormon sphere after decades since leaving, and I'm late with this comment, but here goes! I love you all, and especially John Larsen!
Thank you so much for this episode. I'm teetering on PIMO and this gave me so much peace. I appreciated Carah's talk about how staying in when I know it's wrong is a form of privilege, but honestly, the missionaries are SO strung out and hanging by a thread. I feel like I'm the only person who cares that they're having emotional breakdowns and need rest. Inviting them over while we cook for them and letting them do a lesson while they sit on the couch and rest seems to be the only time they can not freak out about being "perfect"
Just as the church preaches line upon line, leaving the church is the same. Small changes will happen over time until they have a breaking point, or don't. Some may neve reach that point. A person has to reach that point where it's all too much.
As always, excellent information John! As an ex JW myself, all the information presented can be applied to why so many JW'S struggle to leave the church. The internet has exposed the truth about JW church history, incorrect doctrines, and harmful policies. While many people are leaving in droves, many individuals are not leaving. This podcast explains the correct reasons why....please keep up the great job. Best wishes!!
Let's assume there's a ghost living inside my body (although that's nonsense on its face). How would my ghost experience pain without having a brain and central nervous system? The threat of hellfire is just so laughable.
I’m a never Mormon, here for wisdom and study and experience you all constantly share. This is my favorite episode because of all that, and the nuanced “fucks”. Many thanks!
This is the best episode! This is a microcosm of the US right now. There’s Mormon specific references but transpose “Mormon” for “White superiority” or “A certain political party where power matters more than votes” the deconstruction is SO USEFUL. I subscribed bc 8 passengers press collided with meeting a couple of ex Mormon 20 something lesbians in a Minnesota campground, one was ex FLDS. 😅 You’re doing great work.
John Larsen is such a treat! Seriously I could listen to him talk for so long. His authenticity is refreshing.
What zone 😅
I was inactive for most of the 53 years that I was a member. I still thought that most of what I had learned was true. After reading the CES Letter and doing research and finding Mormon Stories, I had my name removed from the church records. I was very sad to realize everything about the church was a lie.
It's crazy how much the church holds us. I was inactive for 5 years and still felt it was true and I was just a sinner. I ended up becoming active again for 10 years before I finally discovered it was all a fraud and had my record removed. Wish I figured it out the first time but glad I did eventually
You're not the only one, I stopped attending in 2008 telling myself the gospel was true but the institution was flawed. Didn't find all this stuff out until 2018. A lot of pieces have fallen into place since then.
BJ, I have a similar story. I was a closeted gay BYU Student in the early 80’s. Believed the basic description of god etc but totally inactive. I started Therapy and Mormon Stories made me realize so much of my beliefs were incorrect. Resigned and came out of the closet in 2016. Happier out gay man living the last quarter of my life.
So did I.
@Chris Johnson I am also gay. I came out to myself about two years after I joined the church in 1970. So, from 1972 until 2022, I was still having the internal battle. I still believed in the majority of what the church taught, except for that one area. Then, to discover the whole finding the golden plates and translation of them, the many versions of the first vision and, of course, the totally fabricated Book of Abraham. So, yes, we and so many other people were victims of the Mormon Church. I am so happy for you now that you are living your true authentic life. ❤️
I OVED your last rant!! Yes, you can’t just leave it alone. I’m 66 and just found out the facts if the Church 15 months ago. Thankfully I see a great counselor 2x a month. ❤️
Brother Jesus can take THAT LIE FROM YOU IN 1 SEC!!!
John Larsen's explanation at the end of the podcast on why apostates spend energy to warn others of Mormonism is a bulls eye. The more one is into Mormonism, the more traumatic it is to apostatize from it.
Want to bet? What about the millennials who are getting married older? Or who think it's ok to drink coffee and tea or alcohol and they still attend Church. In fact a friend of mine was expecting the roof of the temple to fall in on him, it didn't, so that told him a lot. He still drinks his coffee. Goes to Church on Sundays and the new temple interview question is "do you understand the word of wisdom?" Sure you can answer Yes. You can understand it but nobody asks if you are living it...
With regards to John's rant about "leaving Mormonism but can not leave it alone," every time I am with a group of Mormons since I've left it amazes me that Mormons can only seem to talk about Mormonism. It's genuinely all they talk about with each other.
my mom told me a story of Brigham Young .He had a dream of Joseph after his death and Joseph told Brigham in the dream "sorry Brother Brigham I can't talk there's much work to be done "
it's so stupid & funny thinking about it now 🤣🤣🤣
I experiance that too. Like a bunch of airheads. Even in a room of mixed relion and non religious they will dominate about Mormon stuff. Boring Mind numbing. They can't carry on an an intelligent conversation.
What do they talk about exactly? Lol I find the topics of discussion of mormon stories very interesting but I'm sure those aren't the topics being talked about by tbm's.
I’m an ex Jehovah’s Witness this helps me so much! Thank you God bless you guys.
I was not active in the church for many years before going back and my husband also due to a long story that can’t get into here.. But we raised our kids in the church and they left it but I always had hopes that they would return. No amount of prayer brought them back. Fast forward to now and many many years invested into it and I had the bright idea that I needed to find out why I couldn’t feel good about polygamy.. Down the rabbit hole I went and read the gospel topics essays and the CES letter and much more. Having to see those things that I had never been taught growing up and after was like this bucket of water in my face! First the shock and then the disbelief and then the anger that I had been deceived and lied to.. I’ve tried to have conversations with my husband about it but at this point his mind can’t accept it.. I am at a point that I need to support him as much as I can without this destroying us and our marriage.. and then this makes me even angrier at the church because this was all them that caused this! I decided that I won’t give them any more of my thoughts than I have to because I love my husband and he comes first! But it’s good to have a support group that I can go to and this podcast is one of them! Soo I thank you John!
My favorite part of these podcasts is when John says "One last question" and it goes on for another 45 minutes. I'm not even joking, those are usually the meatiest parts, where people get the most geniune and vulnerable. 😊
I'm not getting tired of Mormon Stories and I think ex-Mormons will mostly continue watching because it's riveting. I think that we all need heroes, people with courage willing to expand their world view....because of their honesty and truthfulness. Most people live shallow lives where they're not confronted with such hard situations in life like Mormons discovering the truth of the church which is presented as the source of truth. It's like suddenly realizing that your mother, the one person you can count on to love and support you, is not really your mother, and she really doesn't care about you. The church is like this mother to Mormons.
All of these stories are worthy of being made into a movie. The real story of Joseph Smith would be a fantastic movie.
The rant at 2:04:25 is the reason I love John Larsen.
I’m showing people that when they ask why I still engage with Mormonism as an ExMormon so much.
John’s rant at 1:19:00 is what I’ve wanted people to understand for years. Always so great to hear from him and his wonderful communication skills! 🥳
So relevant to the state of this country now too. The divide is toxic and we need to find ways back to each other without de-humanizing each other. We are gutting ourselves. I’m an immigrant and I am always noticing how kind Americans are but how cruel our systems are and we give consent to that from mindlessness.
Stellar episode, as always with J-Lar and Nuancehoe.
This reminded me of how I froze for awhile before being able to get rid of my garments. I knew I would never want to put them on again.
Yet, the church put ideas in me that I was doing the most sacrilegious, evil and damning thing a person could ever do.
When I had a chance to assess and see my autonomy within reach, I threw them in the garbage. It was cathartic and felt natural. But it took a hot minute to jump to action. I definitely froze over that, for a few weeks.
The Mormon conditioning made me react unexpectedly, as I think back. It should have been easy and obvious, but it wasn't.
I loved this discussion about fight/flight/freeze.
I had a similar experience. I’ve been inactive since 2007, and hadn’t worn my garments since 2009, but I held onto them until about a year ago. I knew I would never want to wear them again, but had a tremendous amount of guilt about getting rid of them.
I burned my garments in the fire place. I cried. Now I pass by the LDS Church and I smile about all the tithing I didn't spend. I've been away for 20 years. I'm free.
When I run into people like you three it makes my testimony even stronger than ever.satin and his helpers like you have been trying to destroy the lord's church ever since Joseph Smith reorganized it I'll start worrying about if it's true or not when you people stop wasting your time and energy and some of you your money.and you disappear.
Been inactive since 2016 wore garments til 2018, I kept them to "properly" dispose of them until I find out about all the lies May of 22. Threw them in the garbage literally the next day
It takes a lot to get me out of angry victim mode. Now I see why it's so important. Thank you, John Larsen.
I'm a new subscriber. I came to this channel because of Mike Rinder (ex-Scientologist). These cross-cult/religion collabs work!
I'm an ex-muslim myself, but these podcasts teach me a lot, not just about my former religion (there are some eery parallels), but also about myself as a person. Thank you and keep up the good work.
Been out for awhile now but I still love this podcast. Hearing John's voice is soothing and I associate with positive things thanks to his influence in my faith crisis...also, what better way bring the truth to my friends who are still TBM than to educate myself? Love you all, keep fighting the good fight.
This episode made me really emotional. It’s easily the best episode of Mormon stories in my opinion.
Fabulous session! The information on the "normalcy bias" was so eye-opening as an ex-mo. I spent 38 years in the church and leaving I thought was the hardest thing I ever did. I knew my extended family would have been devastated and it would have been easier to just stay in the church. I just couldn't do it once I knew the church was not true I had to leave. Best decision I ever made in my life! There aren't any "boogymen" out there who are going to come after you! Leaving the church frees you. It takes time.
It definitely is so scary to be the first of my siblings to leave the church. So much disappointment from my father but my wife and I just could not continue being part of the church.
@@discoveringhemet We had to leave also back in 1992. I had spent my first 38 years of my life in the church. My husband was a teenager convert and then an RM. We married in the temple, had three kids, served numerous callings, yada yada yada. When our kids were 11,9, and 7 we realized through much research over a five year period that the church indeed was not true. My extended family were upset at best and devastated at worse. But we had to be true to ourselves.
@@kkheflin3 how interesting, my wife and High School Sweetheart was a teenage convert but I was born in the Church and served a mission prior to getting sealed to her in 2005.
So interesting, our timelines are kinda similar…I also was 38 with three girls, just a bit older at ages 13, 11 and 9 plus our sons at ages 4 and 2. COVID was also a big help realizing how much happier our family is without the church.
@@discoveringhemet Interesting! We do have similar timelines and situations. I lost my husband ten years after we left the church when we were only 48 (very suddenly) with three teenagers and one of my old ward members came up to me with a sweet smile and said, "NOW don't you wish you hadn't left the church and lost your covenants for an eternal family?" And then pretended to shed some tears. I was dumbstruck.....Incredible.....How cruel! So glad we got out and my children and I have all remained out!
@@kkheflin3 oh my goodness, my wife and I just read your response. Unbelievably how terrible people can be. I’m sorry for the loss of your husband, I can’t even image how hard that was for you and the kids. Thank you for sharing your story with me. 🙏🏼
youtube shorts is what brought me to you! the change in promotion has worked wonders thanks to Cara, but your interviewing, John, is what keeps viewers here! i love this channel and it’s taught me so much about the Mormon faith. love you guys and congrats on 100k!
This is one of the most helpful episodes that I have listened too. It has helped me understand the position of my family who have not discovered what I have about the church. Thank you all for all you do, I really enjoy these episodes with John and Carah. (edited for grammar)
100k!!!!!! Yessss!!!!
You all exposed me to the truth and I will forever be grateful! Never ever stop!!!
This is brilliant, John. It makes complete sense. It also reminds me of the psychological concept of “ dread freedom”. We freeze when confronted with freedom of choice. Actually this moved on to free agency, We don’t know what to do so we wait to be commanded by prophets to act.
Thanks again, John for stimulating my brain!
I just want to say I started listening in 2013 and here I am, still listening and subbed 10 years later, haha, we do exist! While I have gone through blissful periods of not thinking about the LDS church (as much) and my trauma associated with it, it's creeps or avalanches back into my life ALL the time, often when I least expect it, and I am in need of my comfort blankie, MSP. Yay on 100,000 subs!
I'm a nevermo but find this channel super interesting! I've only just started listening, so you probably talk about this further on (but I'm too impatient to wait to comment), but there's also the concept of the "sunk cost fallacy" whereby you've dedicated so much of your life (and money) to something that at a certain point it's hard to leave
I understand that feeling completely. The first time I left was because of a head injury where I lost all memory. I waited a year to be retaught but they had just lied. So I found a church that would. I was baptized and joined. But when times got hard they walked away.
I fled out of Utah for religious freedom.
In California I did a Babtist church for a while. Came back to Utah and saw theses backward Mormons. One family and me were the only ones that weren't Mormons in that town. Finally they got me. Right after I was babtized they shunned me. I couldn't even get a ride to church.
So I moved
Things were bad right away. Really bad. And it got worse and worse.
After a very strong suicide attempt the Bishop admitted he had assigned his ward members to be cruel to me. Because the previouse one told him to. He said the previous one had talked to my brother
When I told a counselor what my brother did as a youth the counselor told me. Your brother is probably a psyopath.
The brother confessed to me that he had been calling all my bishops and mission president for 35 years. And I could not understand because on my mission I was in a car accident and sustained a head injury. I was so lost. All I understood is my people are being cruel to me. I paid for my mission in full. I did not grow up in the church. But half my life I was fully invested on it. Served in BYU Relief Society Presidency
Etc. Social Security Disability records say what happened on my mission totally disabled me for life
And when I got home I had to live on the streets because I could not work and church would not.
I still kept going untill the act of going to church gave me such horrible flashbacks and pa
Panmic attacks that would criple me for weeks
One time I went Cantatinc just touching a Mormon book.
The last thing that happened is when I asked the Stake President to report my brother to the Getrtal Athorities because he had been a Bishop some of the time he was doing this to me
The Stake President told me if my brother didn't confess the mbers and church would go after me. I was so scarred I dissaciated
All I rember is thing I better hurry and get out of this church before this happens to me again
So I mailed my exit letter to SLC.
I am a Mormon cousin or a never- Mormon ally( same foundational beginnings but a totally different religious trajectory). My church has always promoted seeking out wisdom for yourself so I applaud this podcast for giving believers and non- believers a much needed platform to discuss the burning issues. Keep up the good work. The people in a culture who have their personal lives and their religious lives so intertwined as the Mormon church can get caught up when trying to separate the two when one aspect is not living up to their expectations because they cannot decipher where one starts and the other begins.
This is making me think of the Mormon father that killed his whole family. His wife had just filed for divorce and they had 5 children. The fear of abandonment, outer darkness, isolation from his church, and not “being together forever” may have been part of this thought process. The only way he could “save face” within his church, keep his family, etc. was by ending all their lives so they could be together forever. The town and police and members knew of his DV in the home and turned their back on this mom and the children. When the mom had finally had enough abuse, she filed for divorce to get away. And he, being afraid of being alone, and losing his power, made them all stay together forever. His obituary saying how great of a man he was, is completely off-base. “He was a good man, he was a Mormon” like Carah was saying. Nope. He was a Mormon AND he murdered his whole family, maybe because of his beliefs about divorce, family, and the afterlife.
I don’t listen to a ton of Mormonism related things anymore because of a “been there done that” kinda mentality but this was such a powerful episode. So glad I listened. The psychology is fascinating and the takeaway message for me is having more empathy for my own and others reactions to learning the most shocking things in life to date about the sordid history of the church. Thank you so much to you all for such a great episode.
I grew up in a very fundamentalist Baptist missionary family as a gay son, and strongly relate to this. The reflection of seeing my own silence, and the affect it’s had on others and my own internal well being (short term vs long term pain) is heavy. Thank you, I need to listen to this episode a few more times just to fully process.
John D’s quest at 2:03:45 and the John L’s answer is straight fire. I heard it yesterday working and had to come back this morning and listen again. Thanks guys
I'm a Marine, and I know training has a lot to do with it, but 90-95% of Marines don't freeze. It also helps when u r surrounded by like-individuals and what u need to do is expected.
Absolutely has to do with training. You're exposed on a regular basis to gun shots and commit actions to muscle memory so that when your brain tries to freeze the muscle memory kicks in. Same reason companies and schools have fire drills. So people dont freeze or the opposite, trample each other to death
@@jennybennyglitter lol, my DI mentioned this thing you call “muscle memory” a few times in boot camp. Plus, yearly, when u go to the range.
What I want to know is what makes some people natural at NOT freezing. Like what John L. was saying about his wife freezing the first time she got groped. I punched the first time I got groped. There haven't been many attempts since. I think there's something obvious about me to predators that says, "Eff around and find out," despite being tiny? My mom has the same experience. We've smacked the crap out of or punched the few guys who've tried, and we haven't had nearly as many incidents as statistics suggest we should-especially given my frequent use of public transit for 10+ years! It's the same with an emergency. If no one else with obvious authority does it, I step in and start telling people what to do. Is it genetic? Is it how we're raised? Both?
I did not grow up with any religion
Not even a Bible in the home
. I overheard the mission lessons at age 14. I started going. I was so clueless and nothing made sense
They were cold and excluded me
If you take a dispassionate look at the whole "Church" situation, it's pretty easy to see that social pressure is THE primary motivator, and the thing that keeps people "in line" and causes them to forever strive to be acceptable. In their minds, they tend to equate that social acceptance with "worthiness," and figure that if people are upset with them, then they must not be sufficiently worthy. And if you can keep people strapped, broke, burdened, scheduled, etc., they will tend to cause fewer "problems," ask fewer questions, and continue to try to be obedient and compliant, hoping that things will get better if they just try harder. If you give people too much latitude/freedom, they might start THINKING more, doing more research, and considering an array of options.
I'm an ex-mo, 16 years old, and since I don't have access to any other social media this youtube channel and many others help so much. Maybe one day I won't need these podcasts to cope. Just like at the beginning, the fact that people can move on is good, and the fact that this is still helping so many people is also good.
Maybe one day I'll escape my house now and share on the podcast haha but for now just thank you for helping with people's faith crisis and other struggles that come from our previous mormon or non-mormon lifestyles
So, the hardest part of deconstructing my faith has been reconciling the fact that my parents raised me in a cult. I AM angry at them. My life would've been so much better had my parents, who are both smart, capable people, used those brains to leave. Instead they brainwashed me and wasted 25 years of my life. I am so angry at them for this, and I believe it's justified. My dad is still a member, working every day in the Draper temple, living the ideal homophobic, racist, sexist mormon life. I'm sure he sees me as a disappointment. I know he's disappointed me. But I didn't waste 25 years of his life.
I stayed for my Mom. I didn't want to hurt her and it cost me nothing to go to church with her, so I did. I finally left because I felt like such a fake. I found it hard to pretend belief for other church members. It was easy to pretend with Mom because she didn't really expect me to do or say more than just attending with her. When you attend regularly you are expected to accept a calling and to give testimony. I just couldn't do that. My leaving was not a rejection of the church because I had finally come to the realization that there is no god. No god = no church.
@@davidjanbaz7728I’m truly confused when they think they because the church lies that all of a sudden there’s no god at all. I kind of slightly understand.
When John was reading those verses, my Relax Reminder alert buzzed on my smart watch to let me know I needed to calm down. A physiological response. (It doesn’t even do that when I’m watching horror movies.)
I love this podcast! John Larsen describes our humanity in such a simple and illuminating way. There came a point in my life, the truth roar in my mind was louder than the people around me. Leaving was shocking, traumatic and devastating for my family. Leaving the noise I found so much bliss.
Im still a member of the church, a friend of mine sent this to me. You've given me a lot to think about. I did really like that you weren't hard on the people in the church, even though you disagree with the institution.
Another example of this is what we were taught in our active shooter training at work. If you see another co-worker, tell them to come with you to get out of the building, but if they say no, don't try to convince them, just leave. It's good to want to save people, but like you said if they freeze, they freeze, and you shouldn't risk also getting shot trying to save someone else.
Great analogy!
Love you John Larsen and Carah! These are my favourite Mormon Stories episodes
Thanks!
The pain of leaving can be worse than not.
This is my fear, as I go through my own crisis!
An unfortunate but necessary step to healing, growth, and a better life beyond
The painof leaving was huge, but it was worth it!!!
@@sachamo100 It hurts for about 2 years at most, but then there is a mental and spiritual awakening that is wonderful, especially if you can find a better/ more suitable church. True spiritual depth and life in Christ/God are really worth having. Your crisis is brought about by your superior moral conscience. Believe me, you'll be fine and so glad you left. Just take your time, and please don't go back through fear. God wants love not fear.
Loved how John Larson and you all went into depth on normalcy bias. Quite a interesting phenomenon. When I left the church and religion I tried my hardest to make it appear to others, friends and family, as if everything was normal in my life even though it was one of the hardest things psychologically I had to do. Only those I saw who were also leaving religion I felt like I could talk to about my leaving religion. It was like this until years afterwards.
Brutal boldness + understanding grace. Love it! @johnlarsen1 nails it!
My wife and I decided we had to leave after what we learned. We weren’t going to pull the pin from a hand grenade and then hand it off to our kids and their kids to figure out and take the flesh tearing shrapnel. It had to end with us.
Once we knew, we had to make the manipulation, half-truths, and harm stop. For us, but more importantly, for them.
I live in a very difficult situation. My husband and I purchased my MOL's home and moved in with her. She and her side of the family are die hard LDS. My husband has not been a practicing Mormon since he was 14 and something occurred (he won't tell me what) that made him stop going to church and being active. Yet, he will not have his name removed from the church rolls and I think he won't do it until his mom passes. We have the upstairs and my MOL lives in the downstairs. The missionaries show up uninvited and unannounced. There's always this distance between my spouse and I and the rest of his mom's family. When I married my husband, I had promised to read the BOM and study about the religion but it's almost as weird as Scientology to me. They feel plural marriage is wrong on earth but once they're in Mormon heaven, it's okay. Nonsense.
"... but [Mormonism] is almost as weird as Scientology to me..."
WOW! That says it ALL!
Always love listening to this team.
I'd like to expand this discussion. After talking to a lot of TBMs and ExMos, to me its pretty clear that value systems are a core element of why members continue to value and believe Mormonism. It's in that vein that I highly recommend Mormon Stories 858 - Spiral Dynamics and Mormonism Pt. 1 & 2
when your family go completely insane over your initial" questioning" and "lack of testimony", you know that leaving is going to be way worse than that.Your family is holding 2 totally contradictory things in thier head: 1) the forever family (you are now not a part of) and 2) We get a planet of our own to run, and become a god/goddess so we wouldn't be apart of our family any way. Your familyalso become literally terrified that you will "infect" other family members with your facts and valid criticism.
Maybe it is because I am a no mo, but I have never found Mormon buisness people to be more honest or ethical in fact often the opposite. 🤷♀️ maybe they treat members differently than the general public.
Well, they have all of those mouths to feed, so yeah, they'll take the money and run as fast as they can get it!
Anyone in power is used to a certain level of authority that does not allow others to question.. Humility goes a long way. Lots of lessons can be learned when one is humbled. I would hope that these dishonest business people that you are referring to will have their day of reckoning and learn to be honest with all people.
Allowing grace for the believer is powerful and promotes healing and understanding. Thank you John for that important point. Wisdom for us all!
Wow. I'm not LDS, but this applies to everybody, I think. Once you step out of the story that everyone else is telling themselves, what is left for you?
My son was actually there in Hawaii vacationing when the missile alert came, it scared the crap out of them. They all said goodbye to there family and expressed the gratefulness for each other rented a jeep and drove to the top of the mountain. It was the scariest thing he ever went through. And his whole family changed because of it they no longer take their lives for granted.
I love that they wanted to go up the mountain for the view (reminds me of the tidal wave scene at the end of Deep Impact). After the accidental missile warning in Hawaii, there were reports of people going underground through the manholes. It made me wonder if I'd even want to be one of the few survivors.. what would even be left? Did people freeze or did they just accept the futility?
Sounds like the joke was on him
@@r3b3lutions It was a pivotal moment in his life. His wife was pregnant with there first child. Their life was just beginning and out it was a faults alarm was such a big relief. It gave them all a new outlook on life and to not take it for granted.
What was even Sadder THERE WERE NO SHELTERS NONE ON ANY OF THE ISLANDS, and in a shelter unprepared think of that form of dying... Who would survive to live in the fall out?
So it changed the way you think about your life.. OR DID YOU CHANGE HOW YOU LIVE YOUR LIFE?,. SEE Death is the atomic Bomb waiting to end this life as you know it, And The FALL OUT that will last forever is the choices you make today in the form of the life jacket you Choose. Life is only a dream and death has no ending it could be worse than the fear of waiting for the bomb.
This podcast was triggering for me as I'm still going through many of these phenomena and felt like I was going into this in "real-time!" "A mind virus?" This is exactly what I felt like! John Larson is Brilliant! Talk about the Matrix! The breakdown of how we react is interesting! Thank-You, all for doing this sacred work! Much love for the insights and explanation of why we do what we do! You people ROCK! 😎♥️
I am so sad listening to you guys! Tears of shame and sorrow for not having the courage to publically leave.
I'm not Mormon. But I grew up in Idaho and the town was half Nazarene (Protestant) and the other half Mormon. The Mormons were to be envied for their tight families, successful education and business pursuits, and their social skills. AWESOME AMERICANS!! When Mormons leave, they may feel they are taking a step down joining the prevailing culture. The lonesomeness without faith and family reminds me of the lonesomeness of leaving a military career. Or maybe like leaving a gang. Who am I now? Who cares about me?
These psychological impact episodes are fantastic. This one. "Why Do ExMos seem so Angry" Etc. They really help illuminate the process we are all going through. Many more, please.
Totally agree that family members still in the church think that bad things that happen to people who leave the church is because they left. When I was going through my faith crises and beginning my deconstruction I was having health problems (likely due to the immense stress) and my mom told me that the reason I was having health problems was because I wasn't going to church and paying my tithing. 🙄
I remember "freezing" emotionally when bad news on Mormonism started showing up on the internet. Later I rationalized. Eventually I researched and left Mormonism when things became undeniable.
Wow. Enlightening. Same response when this happens in marriage.
There’s 3 parts of why people stay in a high demand/cult organization:
1: Faith
2: Ritual
3: Community
Most people can look at the evidence that refutes their faith and ignore it because they can fall back on the rituals they’ve received/continue to receive ( temple, sacrament, etc) and their strong identity linked to the community.
A person has to question all (3) to be able to leave generally. Links to community is very strong and most people have a very hard time venturing out on their own.
Yes. As a young girl I went to catholic elementary school. And yes, at 6 years old I was terrified of going to hell. Top that off with a terribly chaotic home laid the seeds of my full blown panic disorder. Don't do this to your children, please! Huge reason I raised my kids out of any church. As a kid, what do you think is more impactful, fear of a "devil" or love to a "God"? Fear. You can't see either of them, how can you truly be sure God is going to save you? And to top it off we're baptized as infants and washed of our "original sin". We're born sinners and the fight to stay in God's favor is a lifelong struggle.
Then you have not understood Catholicism at all. Sad that was done to you, and totally morally wrong, but morons get that stuff too. Wrong too.
@@heathermcdougall8023 I have a distinct memory of having a nightmare where my dad was attacked with a knife. I woke up in a panic. I fell asleep before my prayers and thought God was sending me a message. I had a nightlight in my room until college, terrified of the dark. The devil and demons could be anywhere. I have very strong feelings about children being taught about hell. Very unnecessary. The golden rule is all you need.
@@davidjanbaz7728 my comments were based on what I experienced as a child.
@@sallyostling What about Mormon nightmares? They are real too.
@@heathermcdougall8023 I believe it!
The financial situation is probably a big aspect of why they stay in the Mormon community. By design, the church set it up that way to create a cohesiveness to feed the growth of the church. It would be hard to leave something that feeds you.
I think the quote " gunfight in a submarine " is the best metaphor for how I feel about working in the climate change space for some time. These concepts also help me to have patience for people who understand but do nothing!! Thankyou.
I needed this to help me forgive myself for staying in the church long after I should have known better.
I love you so much John Larsen
Great and insightful conversations 😌
1:21:00 I'm just waiting for excommunication, but I am hoping to inspire members and exmembers to find inner spiritual power and liberation that transcends all evolutionary societal constructs. Because whatever we're doing on this planet so far is killing us all.
I’ve been out for 10 years and I still listen
Excellent, thank you. I've been completely confused about humanity the last few years. This finally explained what I was trying to understand and was so confused about humans. This is finally helping me process what I was watching happen around me.
A lot of members freeze when it comes to leaving the church or having their records removed because you can always revert to that "WHAT IF?" You have a lot on the line if you're wrong for leaving. It makes sense why so many go back and forth or "can't leave it alone" when so many defense mechanisms have been programmed along with our natural psychological inclinations.
JL : "....endless f***ing torment..."
JD: "you added the 'f***ing' right?"
Hahahahaha love it.
I will disagree with John Larsen on one point. Its been about 8 years since I first discovered MS, and have found myself constantly coming back. Especially when loved ones get to that questioning point, to remind me where I've come from, and lastly to have a good giggle while unpacking old mindsets and behaviours.
Once again love the work. Thanks guys.
40 years a converted member, now in a Faith Crisis. Thanks for your input.
As far as the current listeners not being those that listened 10 years ago . . . . I guess that I am an outlier then because I was following John Before Mormon Stories launched in the "Why I Stay" days, and still follow the podcast albeit with less anger and "burn it to the ground" emotions. It is still a relevant and interesting component of my mixed faith marriage dealing with life such as it is. Thanks, John!! and Carah and John L -- you guys are my people now.......
This is straight out of Trauma survival. Fight, flight, freeze or fawn. I went through all of these phases in leaving the Church.
Yay! Someone mentioned Fawn!
@@jamiepotts6102 yes, Fawning is real. Why else would there be so many people pleasers? Hope you are healing well too. :)
So insightful bringing deep human response to disaster of freeze, fight,flight into context of why Mormons don't leave and how family is reacting to a faith disaster.
This episode was absolute fire! So much great info packed in this episode. Well done Carah, John, & John!!
I just paused this video and went on Twitter. I saw this post:
"We are witnessing the collapse of mankind, right in front of our very eyes.
Yet we’re doing nothing."
Yep. We must act on injustice or we are part of the problem.
NeverMo here.... I think it's because of the horrible ramifications of leaving not only the faith , but the family culture, family structure. Just the thought of it brings me to tears.
Fantastic podcast. Than you John Larson for putting into words things I’ve been thinking and wondering about myself. Loved those closing remarks.
What a great episode! Thank you thank you for this!
For those that are thinking about leaving the church, but are frozen with fear from the fallout, just do it. From my own personal experience, the good that follows totally outweighs any loss. The weight that is lifted is enormous, and you will feel so much better.
This is what I worry about and hope for!
For me, I couldn't stay and align with a church that harms so many and refuses to make amends or apologize for it. When I started to question, my own family of origin became hostile and so, so angry that I would do this to THEM! Their reactions back then, and even how they still view me negatively today, made me realize how the LDS culture and indoctrination had a hand in them reacting that way. Any religion that supposedly teaches the love of Christ, yet their members behave contrary to that, is a problem, and that's something I don't want to have anything more to do with. A family of friends that you choose, who live their lives in truth and authentically, are what those who leave have to look forward to on the other side of Mormonism.
@@sachamo100 It will take a little time, around 6 moths to start to feel way better, but after a year, your life will improve unbelievably. It;s like going from slavery to freedom.
I love watching you and Margi together. There is a fluidity during your interviews.
Good insight for my whole life, and the political atmosphere of today. Thanks
Never Mormon, but was raised with extreme Christian beliefs. Thank you for explaining the psych part of it so well.
Best episode ever! Very helpful.
So glad to see 100K+ Subscribers!
Yay! Thank you!
Simple: behavior influences belief 🤷🏻♂️. The more they do all the crap they're told, the more hooked they get.
After 40 years of rejection, non support, and not being acceptance I found that what I knew in my heart to be true and the system are two different things. There is truth everywhere even in the foundations of "mormonism". I have just learned that humans make mistakes. The church has become a system of greed, falsehood, and cover up. It took me accepting what I knew in my heart, testimony of anything true for me, and growing stronger as a person to say NO MORE to the bad behavior of the members.
1:20:40 Beautifully put. Thank you John. You are a beautiful human being.
This is your best interview yet. Good point about finances at the end John D!
Carah! Fantastic input. Thankyou.
One of the many reasons some Jewish people did not leave Germany was that they believed that they could change the minds of other Germans.
John Larson, your exposition on the value of extending grace to those who remain, was distinctly moving. I believe, as it sounds like you believe, that we're all actually doing the best our brains will allow us to do. Deliberately perceiving others with that spirit of grace is a deeply valuable concept which you expressed beautifully.
I'm finally in the ex-Mormon sphere after decades since leaving, and I'm late with this comment, but here goes! I love you all, and especially John Larsen!
Embarrassment and fear of shunning would be my top two guesses. 3rd would be economic reasons such as fear of losing a job or contracts.
The relationships in church are one of the hardest things to separate from
Great episode understanding my brain turned the pain of understanding the church lied and is false into a great awakening!!!
Thank you so much for this episode. I'm teetering on PIMO and this gave me so much peace. I appreciated Carah's talk about how staying in when I know it's wrong is a form of privilege, but honestly, the missionaries are SO strung out and hanging by a thread. I feel like I'm the only person who cares that they're having emotional breakdowns and need rest. Inviting them over while we cook for them and letting them do a lesson while they sit on the couch and rest seems to be the only time they can not freak out about being "perfect"
This was an exceptional episode. ❤
Just as the church preaches line upon line, leaving the church is the same. Small changes will happen over time until they have a breaking point, or don't. Some may neve reach that point. A person has to reach that point where it's all too much.
As always, excellent information John! As an ex JW myself, all the information presented can be applied to why so many JW'S struggle to leave the church. The internet has exposed the truth about JW church history, incorrect doctrines, and harmful policies. While many people are leaving in droves, many individuals are not leaving. This podcast explains the correct reasons why....please keep up the great job. Best wishes!!
Let's assume there's a ghost living inside my body (although that's nonsense on its face). How would my ghost experience pain without having a brain and central nervous system? The threat of hellfire is just so laughable.
We recently had a real fire alarm at a hospital I work at. Sure enough many evacuated, but some stayed back to continue to care for patients.
I’m a never Mormon, here for wisdom and study and experience you all constantly share. This is my favorite episode because of all that, and the nuanced “fucks”. Many thanks!
This is the best episode! This is a microcosm of the US right now. There’s Mormon specific references but transpose “Mormon” for “White superiority” or “A certain political party where power matters more than votes” the deconstruction is SO USEFUL. I subscribed bc 8 passengers press collided with meeting a couple of ex Mormon 20 something lesbians in a Minnesota campground, one was ex FLDS. 😅 You’re doing great work.