I think you did a great job distinguishing the 3 types in regards to identity and how they feel that incompleteness. For me, as a 4, it's true. As I previously stated, I know who I am, and I've always been trying to find a way to express it. I'm definitely envious of those who (seemingly) are successfully expressing who they are, particularly in the arts. I think you're right that each type will never be satisfied and say, 'Yes! I'm now complete, or I now know who I am, or I've now expressed who I am and all is well.' In a way, that's good because it gives us reason to continue striving for something, as painful as it can be sometimes. It's sort of our purpose and feeds into other aspects of our lives. Great discussion, Ren. Thanks so much!😊
This a personal philosophy, being a 5w4: I Am- Subject to anyone's intepretation, not going to bring up the paradoxical path to materialise this. The only thing I could see myself, is this detached observer that slips through any system to create something belonging to self. Once again, you are right with the sense of incompleteness. They know the answers, but they just want to know why the answers are there to begin with. In practical reality, they are driven by their sense of incompleteness in competency and truth. One of my ultimate goals, is to pursue self-mastery. Self-expression was never a problem, only a tool for furthering understanding. Understanding, is an answer that fuels courage against fear. Bringing the light of truth to the inner demons of trauma, gives the chance to self-actualise.
Prime mistake I see people make with typing, whether mbti or enneagram or whatnot, is that they type purely by behavioral characteristics. MBTI is fundamentally determined by cognition rather than behavior, while enneagram is determined by core fears or virtues. They might affect behavior as anything that has any sort of resemblance to eachother might be affected by, but overall behavior doesn’t have much of a influence on both enneagram or mbti typing systems
As a 5.4 (any other 5s get a cult alert from the word 'wing', lol) its very hard to relate to avarice. My main yearning has been for that 'click' with humans - that rapid back and forth of ideas and... humour. So rare! And I've a hankering for experiences and will put myself through distress to get them. Is that knowledge greed? I think the closest I get is an overcollection of quirky secondhand books. I've never 6 wondered who I am or 4 fought to express myself, so spot on. Thanks Ren, you always get the cogs turning.
As an INFJ 5w4, I'm not clear if they mingle somehow, but your description of the 5 seems to apply to me. I am often lost in bibliographies. Threads cast out to even more information, though I likely haven't grasped the content in my hands. A person must take time to assess it and incorporate it, but the greediness--and that is the word I've used myself--is powerful. I'm trying to recognize when it is enough. But there is so much in the world that is interesting and a lifetime is not enough to know it. The old chestnut, "The more you know, the less you know"--I am not particularly orientated to my body, always thought of it like it is a "pod" (oh dear, odd expression) I live in, but in that is something of a self consciousness. As you described, my identity is there and seems like it always has been because no matter what I "think" my default is that identity. I've never been able to shift it from that axis. Also I have to know "why"--your moon example is perfect. I want to learn those patterns, see those pieces and am excited to learn how they go together--that flow. :) Oh yes. I don't know if the w4 impacts anything in this instance, but expression is also a struggle. My primary engagement has been written work--poetry, on fiction works, painting and drawing. After reading your book, I thought the look-see phenomenon -- is a function of the INFJ triangulation. Reality check through others. Patterns are so exciting so not only am I greedy for the information, but a pest with sharing it. heheh... :) Thanks again for an insightful lecture. They add to my, ahem, knowledge base. ;)
Haha, the moments when required to just search up something, and always end up digging rabbit holes just wanting to know the scope of the big picture. Can't stop from that irresistible investigative drive that just wants to know more XD
@@juice_lime5114 So true... focus, focus...oh but this is part of that, can't you see it? How can I understand this, if I haven't an idea of where I am going? Big picture, indeed:) And there is so much that is interesting under ground in those rabbit holes. Yes? ) So greedy...
An excellent summary, thanks very much Ren! Loved the comparison between the types - most illuminating. Definitely relate to feelings of envy and your description of how this points to a ‘self’ that’s known. Spent much of my life searching for satisfactory ‘vehicles’ of expression - music, art, writing prose and poetry. I’ve refined what clothes I wear to express myself as well as the decor of my home - books in every room:) I’m gluttonous re my accumulation of knowledge via this huge book collection and although I’ve chucked out many books along the way, I’ve kept a lot of books because I never know when I need to refer back to them. Perhaps this makes me a 4w5. Loved the moon analogy - most helpful. Thanks again! Lil
Well. I'm glad you posted this. I did some digging and it turns out I am a Type 4 Wing 5. That explains a lot. Not ideal. I know what made me, though. I wish there was a way to change who you are, fundamentally.
Very useful. I was always sure about being an Enneagram 5 but now I'm even more haha It's interesting because unlike my Enneagram I have often doubted whether I am really an INFJ or an INTP or INFP instead.
For a long time I have been convinced that in my case the typing is accurate. I know who I am, and I am directly bombarded daily with evidence of (the problem of the perceptual filter is still a concern, however) how I am sygnificantly different from the all-encompassing oceanic majority of people. This realization brings a sense of relief, supposedly associated with the confirmation of standing in the right (to myself) place. However, the issues of completeness/ envy you raised seem - to me anyway - extremely interesting and insightful. I am an INFJ writer, a poet. I know what I want to say and I can do it "loudly". Of course, the intuitive nature of creation sometimes plays tricks, but let's not get into those details now. A sense of completeness goes hand in hand with the latter, as it were, except that I wouldn't exactly describe it as the envy. It is - probably flowing from perfectionism - a feeling of separation between oneself as a writer and oneself as a writer in his most outstanding form. After all, I could "do better", "more accurately" I've shown this to myself many times.... It is like a nagging impatience. On the other hand, if it turns out that I come across something similar to what I myself have already written (and things get complicated, as I write in two languages) - I accept it with peace of mind, provided that the rest of that person's work points to something like a soulmate. Otherwise, I relate with a feeling closer to injustice rather than envy. My warmest greetings. (INFJ 4w5 SX/SP).
I’m painting and listening to you so I’m hoping my comment is correct to this video. Instead of titles I’m looking at how your collar is under your sweater. You now have mentioned something I didn’t know was related to type and that is my collection of information.i feel so much better. This has been viewed from other types in my family as a really strange thing to do. ❤️
Good analysis Ren - it gives great insight into some of the key differences between these three types. It would be interesting to look at E7, the third head type, as well, but that's primarily an extroverted type so it might be a bit of a stretch to compare it with the others in a similar way. It would also be interesting to look at the characteristic anxiety that lies in distinct flavours between the three head types. The problem of self knowledge in E5s for example can be bound up with introvert social struggles and the use of hoarded cleverness and knowledge as a defense against the way these can hack at the roots of your identity and sense of self-value. As an E5, I'm rarely without some level of anxiety, related to how much I'm in control of things - mostly it's at low level, but it never goes away and sometimes it is much higher. It's interesting to see how my E4 wing interacts with this anxiety - if I'm not careful it becomes an excessive concern about how others react to me and so into very typical INFJ people pleasing and conflict avoidance. It might be worth exploring how to escape from these problems too. It's could be quite Jungian for example to re-orient the problem and realise that an incomplete self is a blessing because it's where we can grow, and without growth we stagnate. But that realisation by itself is a potential, not a cure, because many incompleteness situations can be stumbling blocks instead, so this is just a feeling that there is something here to look into rather than a hard suggestion. But of course there are wonderful things to say about these types too - their characteristic problems are interesting of course, but I guess the life experience of each of these Enneagram types at average to healthy levels is very rich and rewarding? I wouldn't want to swap my own out :D
Maybe I’ve found something. First, I didn’t live my own life really until two years ago. I’ve been obsessed with processing a complicated grief and maybe my desire to understand my experiences in light of relatively new information to me is why I’m so bottlenecked here. I want to honor the good and ditch the bad. I don’t want more information. I don’t want any more of a complete picture so I’m protected from being fooled again. I just want to trash the whole idea of ever even trying to love again. I think if I’m incomplete I just want to be ok with that. I know I’m not super bright and maybe that is needed to make sense and simplify and shake it off. I’m listening again to Billie Eilish’s No Time to Die.
Lovley insights to the 4,5,6. Would like to hear you're taughts on 6w5, 6w7. Yes the six way to security can be verry difirent and create extreamey different personalities. That is verry ineresting and explain to some degree why it is so dificult to spot e6 for others and themselves. You adapt when you are a sociala 6 (6w7), 6w5 are mabie not so musch adaptable in a loong term consistent way? They mey more strive to seek security in money? And 6w7 tend to find security more in the socal/community/group?
What would be the long term benefit of hoarding knowledge and information for a 5? With ni I would think they would plan to put it to use in the future. Or show others they have the knowledge in some form.
INFJ 5s rely more on their tertiaryTi, which can't stop trying to gather more information. This is because of circumstances that made them suppress their Fe, with this happening much more frequently with men due to the public perception of Fe being... Well. Anyways, its hard to control when younger. They want to understand and be prepared, because it's driven by their core fear of being weak and helpless. More often than not, they have an unstable upbringing that forced them to detach, relying on themselves more than anyone. But as mentioned in the video, everyone has a limit in mental capacity. Even though INFJ 5s hoard information, they do so unwillingly in true nature. They are actually the most talented in developing world concepts, because of their highly developed world views constantly being refined by Ti. If 4s are extremely adept with developing characters in stories, 5s do worldbuilding. It's a channel where they can tap into, and soothe that inner urge to express all the excess as a piece of art. When you have a thought and express it, it disappears from your mind. That's roughly how it works.
I could see the gears turning in your mind as you explained greed/avarice as it relates to 5s. You can't turn that introverted thinking thing down can you? ; )
Hm now I’m toying between 6 and 9… Do you have any observations on why the infj stereotype would have many of the basic characteristics of interpretation of the 9 but be less likely than others who type as a 9? (Which may explain many mistyped not just for infjs) Because the thing you say about incompleteness is also analogous to some stuff I’ve read about 9 sentiments, also there’s a desire to “merge” and establish trans personal peace which sounds very infj, I agree maybe we don’t have a solid sense of self until that point..
INFJ personality stands for introverted, intuitive, feeling, and judging. INFJ tend to approach life with deep thoughtfulness and imagination. Their inner vision, personal values, and a quiet, principled version of humanism guide them in all things. After doing cognitive function test and figure out you are INFJ, then you need to take enneagram test. It's because you will find out more information that explains why you are INFJ. Enneagram test is a nine-sided figure used in a particular system of analysis to represent the spectrum of possible personality types. All INFJ is not the same as potrayed by stereotypes. So with enneagram test, it helps to navigate your life and accept yourself as INFJ. It is a system of personality typing that describes patterns in how people interpret the world and manage their emotions. That's why you may feel mistyped or often get related with other types. With enneagram test results, you will get the answer.
I think you did a great job distinguishing the 3 types in regards to identity and how they feel that incompleteness. For me, as a 4, it's true. As I previously stated, I know who I am, and I've always been trying to find a way to express it. I'm definitely envious of those who (seemingly) are successfully expressing who they are, particularly in the arts. I think you're right that each type will never be satisfied and say, 'Yes! I'm now complete, or I now know who I am, or I've now expressed who I am and all is well.' In a way, that's good because it gives us reason to continue striving for something, as painful as it can be sometimes. It's sort of our purpose and feeds into other aspects of our lives. Great discussion, Ren. Thanks so much!😊
This a personal philosophy, being a 5w4: I Am-
Subject to anyone's intepretation, not going to bring up the paradoxical path to materialise this. The only thing I could see myself, is this detached observer that slips through any system to create something belonging to self. Once again, you are right with the sense of incompleteness. They know the answers, but they just want to know why the answers are there to begin with. In practical reality, they are driven by their sense of incompleteness in competency and truth. One of my ultimate goals, is to pursue self-mastery. Self-expression was never a problem, only a tool for furthering understanding. Understanding, is an answer that fuels courage against fear. Bringing the light of truth to the inner demons of trauma, gives the chance to self-actualise.
Prime mistake I see people make with typing, whether mbti or enneagram or whatnot, is that they type purely by behavioral characteristics. MBTI is fundamentally determined by cognition rather than behavior, while enneagram is determined by core fears or virtues. They might affect behavior as anything that has any sort of resemblance to eachother might be affected by, but overall behavior doesn’t have much of a influence on both enneagram or mbti typing systems
As a 5.4 (any other 5s get a cult alert from the word 'wing', lol) its very hard to relate to avarice.
My main yearning has been for that 'click' with humans - that rapid back and forth of ideas and... humour. So rare! And I've a hankering for experiences and will put myself through distress to get them. Is that knowledge greed? I think the closest I get is an overcollection of quirky secondhand books.
I've never 6 wondered who I am or 4 fought to express myself, so spot on. Thanks Ren, you always get the cogs turning.
As an INFJ 5w4, I'm not clear if they mingle somehow, but your description of the 5 seems to apply to me. I am often lost in bibliographies. Threads cast out to even more information, though I likely haven't grasped the content in my hands. A person must take time to assess it and incorporate it, but the greediness--and that is the word I've used myself--is powerful. I'm trying to recognize when it is enough. But there is so much in the world that is interesting and a lifetime is not enough to know it. The old chestnut, "The more you know, the less you know"--I am not particularly orientated to my body, always thought of it like it is a "pod" (oh dear, odd expression) I live in, but in that is something of a self consciousness. As you described, my identity is there and seems like it always has been because no matter what I "think" my default is that identity. I've never been able to shift it from that axis. Also I have to know "why"--your moon example is perfect. I want to learn those patterns, see those pieces and am excited to learn how they go together--that flow. :) Oh yes. I don't know if the w4 impacts anything in this instance, but expression is also a struggle. My primary engagement has been written work--poetry, on fiction works, painting and drawing. After reading your book, I thought the look-see phenomenon -- is a function of the INFJ triangulation. Reality check through others. Patterns are so exciting so not only am I greedy for the information, but a pest with sharing it. heheh... :) Thanks again for an insightful lecture. They add to my, ahem, knowledge base. ;)
Haha, the moments when required to just search up something, and always end up digging rabbit holes just wanting to know the scope of the big picture. Can't stop from that irresistible investigative drive that just wants to know more XD
@@juice_lime5114 So true... focus, focus...oh but this is part of that, can't you see it? How can I understand this, if I haven't an idea of where I am going? Big picture, indeed:) And there is so much that is interesting under ground in those rabbit holes. Yes? ) So greedy...
An excellent summary, thanks very much Ren! Loved the comparison between the types - most illuminating. Definitely relate to feelings of envy and your description of how this points to a ‘self’ that’s known. Spent much of my life searching for satisfactory ‘vehicles’ of expression - music, art, writing prose and poetry. I’ve refined what clothes I wear to express myself as well as the decor of my home - books in every room:) I’m gluttonous re my accumulation of knowledge via this huge book collection and although I’ve chucked out many books along the way, I’ve kept a lot of books because I never know when I need to refer back to them. Perhaps this makes me a 4w5. Loved the moon analogy - most helpful. Thanks again! Lil
Well. I'm glad you posted this. I did some digging and it turns out I am a Type 4 Wing 5.
That explains a lot.
Not ideal.
I know what made me, though.
I wish there was a way to change who you are, fundamentally.
Very useful. I was always sure about being an Enneagram 5 but now I'm even more haha
It's interesting because unlike my Enneagram I have often doubted whether I am really an INFJ or an INTP or INFP instead.
For a long time I have been convinced that in my case the typing is accurate. I know who I am, and I am directly bombarded daily with evidence of (the problem of the perceptual filter is still a concern, however) how I am sygnificantly different from the all-encompassing oceanic majority of people. This realization brings a sense of relief, supposedly associated with the confirmation of standing in the right (to myself) place. However, the issues of completeness/ envy you raised seem - to me anyway - extremely interesting and insightful. I am an INFJ writer, a poet. I know what I want to say and I can do it "loudly". Of course, the intuitive nature of creation sometimes plays tricks, but let's not get into those details now. A sense of completeness goes hand in hand with the latter, as it were, except that I wouldn't exactly describe it as the envy. It is - probably flowing from perfectionism - a feeling of separation between oneself as a writer and oneself as a writer in his most outstanding form. After all, I could "do better", "more accurately" I've shown this to myself many times.... It is like a nagging impatience. On the other hand, if it turns out that I come across something similar to what I myself have already written (and things get complicated, as I write in two languages) - I accept it with peace of mind, provided that the rest of that person's work points to something like a soulmate. Otherwise, I relate with a feeling closer to injustice rather than envy. My warmest greetings. (INFJ 4w5 SX/SP).
I’m painting and listening to you so I’m hoping my comment is correct to this video. Instead of titles I’m looking at how your collar is under your sweater. You now have mentioned something I didn’t know was related to type and that is my collection of information.i feel so much better. This has been viewed from other types in my family as a really strange thing to do. ❤️
I'm either a 4w5 or a 5w4. I'm still unsure cause I know I have both not only on my wings but in my fixes. Either 458 or 548
very helpful and useful! I’m an infj as well, and have time after time scored even between type 5 & 6 haha
thank you for your mind!
Good analysis Ren - it gives great insight into some of the key differences between these three types. It would be interesting to look at E7, the third head type, as well, but that's primarily an extroverted type so it might be a bit of a stretch to compare it with the others in a similar way. It would also be interesting to look at the characteristic anxiety that lies in distinct flavours between the three head types. The problem of self knowledge in E5s for example can be bound up with introvert social struggles and the use of hoarded cleverness and knowledge as a defense against the way these can hack at the roots of your identity and sense of self-value. As an E5, I'm rarely without some level of anxiety, related to how much I'm in control of things - mostly it's at low level, but it never goes away and sometimes it is much higher. It's interesting to see how my E4 wing interacts with this anxiety - if I'm not careful it becomes an excessive concern about how others react to me and so into very typical INFJ people pleasing and conflict avoidance.
It might be worth exploring how to escape from these problems too. It's could be quite Jungian for example to re-orient the problem and realise that an incomplete self is a blessing because it's where we can grow, and without growth we stagnate. But that realisation by itself is a potential, not a cure, because many incompleteness situations can be stumbling blocks instead, so this is just a feeling that there is something here to look into rather than a hard suggestion.
But of course there are wonderful things to say about these types too - their characteristic problems are interesting of course, but I guess the life experience of each of these Enneagram types at average to healthy levels is very rich and rewarding? I wouldn't want to swap my own out :D
Maybe I’ve found something. First, I didn’t live my own life really until two years ago. I’ve been obsessed with processing a complicated grief and maybe my desire to understand my experiences in light of relatively new information to me is why I’m so bottlenecked here. I want to honor the good and ditch the bad. I don’t want more information. I don’t want any more of a complete picture so I’m protected from being fooled again. I just want to trash the whole idea of ever even trying to love again. I think if I’m incomplete I just want to be ok with that. I know I’m not super bright and maybe that is needed to make sense and simplify and shake it off. I’m listening again to Billie Eilish’s No Time to Die.
Lovley insights to the 4,5,6.
Would like to hear you're taughts on 6w5, 6w7.
Yes the six way to security can be verry difirent and create extreamey different personalities. That is verry ineresting and explain to some degree why it is so dificult to spot e6 for others and themselves. You adapt when you are a sociala 6 (6w7), 6w5 are mabie not so musch adaptable in a loong term consistent way? They mey more strive to seek security in money? And 6w7 tend to find security more in the socal/community/group?
I missed this one. It’s been a big emotional busy week.
Can you please explain what it means uncompleteness of being
What would be the long term benefit of hoarding knowledge and information for a 5? With ni I would think they would plan to put it to use in the future. Or show others they have the knowledge in some form.
Also curious to hear more about an infj 9.
INFJ 5s rely more on their tertiaryTi, which can't stop trying to gather more information. This is because of circumstances that made them suppress their Fe, with this happening much more frequently with men due to the public perception of Fe being... Well. Anyways, its hard to control when younger. They want to understand and be prepared, because it's driven by their core fear of being weak and helpless. More often than not, they have an unstable upbringing that forced them to detach, relying on themselves more than anyone.
But as mentioned in the video, everyone has a limit in mental capacity. Even though INFJ 5s hoard information, they do so unwillingly in true nature. They are actually the most talented in developing world concepts, because of their highly developed world views constantly being refined by Ti. If 4s are extremely adept with developing characters in stories, 5s do worldbuilding. It's a channel where they can tap into, and soothe that inner urge to express all the excess as a piece of art. When you have a thought and express it, it disappears from your mind. That's roughly how it works.
I could see the gears turning in your mind as you explained greed/avarice as it relates to 5s. You can't turn that introverted thinking thing down can you? ; )
Hm now I’m toying between 6 and 9… Do you have any observations on why the infj stereotype would have many of the basic characteristics of interpretation of the 9 but be less likely than others who type as a 9?
(Which may explain many mistyped not just for infjs)
Because the thing you say about incompleteness is also analogous to some stuff I’ve read about 9 sentiments, also there’s a desire to “merge” and establish trans personal peace which sounds very infj, I agree maybe we don’t have a solid sense of self until that point..
What does INFJ mean?
It’s a myers Briggs personality type
INFJ personality stands for introverted, intuitive, feeling, and judging. INFJ tend to approach life with deep thoughtfulness and imagination. Their inner vision, personal values, and a quiet, principled version of humanism guide them in all things. After doing cognitive function test and figure out you are INFJ, then you need to take enneagram test. It's because you will find out more information that explains why you are INFJ. Enneagram test is a nine-sided figure used in a particular system of analysis to represent the spectrum of possible personality types. All INFJ is not the same as potrayed by stereotypes. So with enneagram test, it helps to navigate your life and accept yourself as INFJ. It is a system of personality typing that describes patterns in how people interpret the world and manage their emotions. That's why you may feel mistyped or often get related with other types. With enneagram test results, you will get the answer.