Atari ST Restoration. 520ST, SM124 and SF314
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- Опубликовано: 4 окт 2024
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Tools I regularly use
DeoxIT D5 Contact Cleaner
Hanstar 861DW Rework Station
Pro'sKit SS-331 Desoldering Station
UNI-T UT61E Auto Ranging Multimeter
UNI-T UT890D Manual Ranging Multimeter
MESR-100 mk2 ESR meeter
PINECIL Soldering Iron
PinePowerPSU
TS-100 Soldering Iron
AMTECH NC-559-ASM Flux
Kester 951 Flux pen
MaAnt Grinding Pen
Multicore 60/40. 0.38mm and 0.5mm solder
TL866 II Plus Programmer
RIGOL DHO800 70MHz four-channel digital scope
Tektronix 2246A 100 MHz four-channel analog scope
FNIRSI DPOX180H 180MHz Handheld Digital Oscilloscope
InfiRay P2 Pro Thermal Camera
PCBs from PCBWay.com
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Music by Karl Casey @ White Bat Audio
Goldstar is now known as LG. Good stuff.
I didn't know that. I have a gold star branded oscilloscope.
@@vhfgamer LG stands for Lucky Goldstar.
Goldstar is good, LG is crap. 🤨
As Peter Venkman said "Commodore repairing arch nemesis Ataris hardware, cats and dogs living together! Mass hysteria!!"
That mouse was probably the origin of that wretched Cybertruck.
lol
What's wrong with the cyber truck?
@@vhfgamer Nothing, as long as it doesn't get wet, and you don't try to use the accelerator pedal, and you don't have to pay for it, and you always view it in 320x240 with software rendering.
@@nickwallette6201 320x240 with software rendering is awesome tho.. 🥺
@@generallyunimportant That is quite true.
I've always loved the Atari aesthetics from this era. So good to see some Atari love on the channel!
I agree, they look great. I have a few more for upcoming videos
In the late 90’s I guy I worked for gave me all his ST crap and I cobbled together a 1040 but with a 8mb SIM mod. Well I put Cubase on it, hooked it up to a couple drum machines and an old Korg synth. I ran that thing well after 2004, maybe longer. It was the best, boot and good to go faster than my iPhone 😂 cheers for the nostalgia 👍
I plan to connect the ST to my Junos :)
Attach a Liven Mega Synthesis to it, it’ll almost have the (virtual) sound chips of the Sega Mega Drive! I would say MegaFM but we need SN76489 action too! Isn’t MIDI an amazing thing, able to connect some fancy hardware built long after the ST was considered obsolete and the Atari can sequence it better than a lot of modern hardware sequencers 😀 and can still rival the modern DAW !
Growing up in a musical family, Cubase on the Atari ST was one of the first sequencers I ever saw and used. It’s not until you go back and try it now, do you realise how spoiled we are these days with the UI responsiveness and ease of use… Still, I bet there’s a sense of achievement you’d feel for completing a song on it these days! One that I haven’t quite managed to achieve!
Fun fact. Joe (Joseph) Decuir was the designer of the SIO connection for the Atari peripherals. He went on to design USB.
Edit: I messed up. I made it sound like he was a lone engineer on the USB project. He also worked on USB with others.
He was (in shadow) also inAmiga team!
He did NOT design USB! Many contributed to USB. It was developed as an industry standard and borrowed from many designs.
@@Great-Documentaries Thank you for the correction. I should have said he went on to work on the USB standard. I made it sound like he was alone in that project. Sorry.
Never seen a PLCC socket with spring clamps like that! Really cool. They should all come with those!
I agree, someone should print replicas
It is GREAT that you are finally doing an Atari ST. I have repaired so many of these I can do it in my sleep. But it is really fun to see someone new to the platform learn how these magnificent machines work. Adrian's Digital Basement did an ST a few months ago and he is just as new to the ST as you. The more RUclipsR's doing Atari the BETTER !! We Atari people have been feeling left out for a long time. There are too many of you commodore guys out there ;)
Tips: If you are upgrading the RAM you may want to upgrade the TOS version to 1.4(rainbow TOS) or 1.62 (better for HD's). Yours has TOS 1.0 and that does not play well with more ram and other upgrades.
The screen refresh is 15Mhz many cameras can't do that slow. Getting non-Atari monitors to work with ST's computer monitor output is at the least VERY DIFFICULT. The 15mhz is very hard to deal with. There are a few MultiSync CRT's that can do it, but you need a special cable. The Atari monitors send a signal to the computer saying they are color, or monochrome. Those cables have small circuit and switch for this.
There are TT-Touch replacement domes for the keyboard. (BEST Electronics) They help A LOT in making the keyboard feel usable.
Be sure to use the IN port on the FD, towards to outside of the FD case. The computer boots faster if there is at least a blank formatted disk in the drive at power up. Otherwise there is 30-45 second wait with nothing happening.
There are many ways to upgrade the ram. The piggy back method was used a lot in the 80's. But there are much better solutions today from Lotherik or Exxos. But they cost$$.
Exxos has some very excellent pages about needed, recommended, and should do replacement, and upgrades for all ST/TT/Falcons. From changing a cap, or resistor, to full PSU swap outs.
The best resource for ST's is Atari-Forum.com. They/we are very helpful and very knowledgeable about ST's. There is at lest 30 years of threads there to search.
There are many models of ST's. All slightly different. It would be fun to see you work on those like you have done with way too many PC/XT.286, 386 and 486 motherboards or your PS/2's. Where you go on for many weeks figuring out problems, build a solution, testing, refine, retest, boots, etc. Since ST's are new territory for you that could be a lot of fun for you, and for us.
Anyway. If I can be of help let me know.
Looking forward to the next installment !!
Thanks for sharing the useful info about the FD! I have an unrestored CM8833-II that I'm planning to use with this Atari. Let's hope it's restorable. I also have a few other STs for future videos :)
a lot of great info in this reply, not much i can add other than a couple things. For monitors, you can use a commodore monitor but would need a special cable. I'm not a crt person, so I'm my case i use a scart cable and the scart to hdmi tv box. i can't recall if Adrian used it on his channel, but he has it and can help with that info. For floppy drive, it's all very similar to the amiga, including being able to use a gotek, though i don't really think it's worth it, it's better to just use a hd replacement like the one lotherek sells. Finally, for RAM upgrade, there's a shared project on pcbway (search Atari st ram) plus i also recall that Adrian used one as well, they might be the same thing.. i would do one of those modern ones and not the original kind... the original kind were terrible, connected all over the board, and usually pressed down onto chips so we're extremely flaky and easy to short chips.
@@brianv2871 Thanks!
Its not really a problem to get a monitor working with a atari, unless you are in the US ofc. Just get a atari to scart cable. 😊
@@Thelemorf Yeah, even in the us, you can still get the scart cables (on the Internet) but you have to go through a few more cable conversions because our stuff doesn't have scart by default. Even if you make your own cables, you'll want to buy a scart cable or something as a base, because that din connector Atari used isn't something anyone wants to solder 😀
Cap has overheated and started boiling (almost) - the coating on the outside bubbles when heat is trapped under it... - think paint, with air/heat bubbles... :)
That’s the same setup I had as a child. I loved the monochrome display with a higher resolution. I think it is still sitting in boxes somewhere in my dad’s garage.
Shielding: At least onn the 1040ST and Falcon I think I was able to remove the floppy drive and then the upper shielding without removing the mainboard. You should avoid bending the clips too often and too hard.
Keyboard: There was an alternate set of keycaps and rubber domes from a manufacturer called RTS. Their rubber domes gave a way better feedback. The keycaps had a smaller top what was nice but the caps were only printed. The printing unfortunately rubbed off after some time of use.
Mouse: You cannot use a joystick as a mouse replacement. But you can operate the mouse cursor with the keyboard. The mouse uses quadrature modulation which is decoded in software in the keyboard microcontroller. If you move the mouse too fast the direction will revert. Whilst the joystick operation is compatible between C64/C128, Amiga and Atari, the assignment of the pins for mouse opertion differs between Atari and Amiga, but you can build a passive adapter (just rewiring) to use an Amiga mouse on the Atari and vice versa.
Monitor: The "strange" refresh rate was the killer argument for Atari against Amiga when using productive software like word processors or TeX etc. The scan rate is somewhat higher than standard VGA (AFAIR around 37kHz) and the picture is 640x400 instead of 640x480 to reach the 70Hz. So, naturally the top and bottom borders are larger than the ones on the side. I think Atari decided for the small picture to keep it sharp over the whole area. And yes, blowing up the picture puts a lot more stress on the circuitry. Guess how I know. I went back to original sizes especially because I had no tools to measure and adjust the high voltage and blew up not only the horizontal deflection cap but also the driver transistor which today possibly could be hard to come by.
Thanks!
Having watched many of your videos I wanted to say this: The patience you have, when you buy a machine possibly yearsish ago and maybe open the box and see you didn't get ripped off, but to then put it up and wait for everything else to be in order to make a video.. this is just amazing to me. I don't think I could do it, I would have to play with these amazing artifacts of our recent past. I spent my entire childhood and adult life around computers and I could not leave the toys you show us weekly alone. You're a great person for sharing these experiences with us. Thank you!
Thanks :)
As Commodore faded away, I had my Commodore gear serviced by whatever local computer shop was willing to look at it. My guess is when this ST needed service, there wasn't a local Atari dealer left to service it, but a Commodore shop was willing to see what they could do.
That seems likely
This is the model I have including the monitor. A friend in the day upgraded my memory to 1 MB by piggybacking the memory.
High temperature silicone works great for regluing neck boards back on the tube. Either the red or grey (which was wat was actually on the tube when you took it apart) will do nicely. You just need to make sure it isn't electrically conductive.
And make sure it doesn't become conductive over time.
Ideally not acetic cure silicone, so not the gasket maker. It will cause corrosion to everything in vicinity while it cures. Kafuter brand silicone for electronics has been good for me - high temperature stable, good thermal conductivity, intended to be used in mains PSUs including primary side. I don't know whether i'd trust it on a CRT neck but... i mean it's probably fine? Uses tin catalyst cure system, so chemically neutral, and not suffering from material compatibility and inhibition.
Jack Tramiel's distant cousin Jill Busriel must have owned that repair center just to spite him.
40:34 cap C915 has got the measles.
No, it is clearly sweating from being in a sauna, baked by the power resistor from one side an that transistor from the other
by the looks of that motherboard (the small shield in the center-back of the motherboard), this unit is actually a 520STM (M for _internal_ TV Modulator - F for _internal_ Floppy Drive)
Correct!
Goldstar is the G in LG (Lucky-Goldstar)
I had a 130 XE that was sold when I was a teenager. I miss that machine to this day. Also, at my elementary school in Hamburg we had a C64 that we used to play Hangman and Battleship.
Why would you sell it???
Thank you very, very kindly for what I believe is some of the most comprehensive CRT tuning material on the entire RUclips platform.
Thanks :)
When I helped out in the summer time at a small authorized commidore repair shop the owner had a habit of putting those stickers on everything he serviced. He also had contracts for IBM typewriters as well as westinghouse. He was just cheep and we had millions of those stickers lol
That would totally explain it
That's hilarious lol
Atari ST are mostly pretty reliable, even after many decades.
An Atari 1040 STFM was my first 16/32bit computer. Love these machines. You'll need 1 MB for a lot of games and more than 1 MB if you want to use hdd (or modern replacement). For hdd usage it's highly recommended to update the TOS version to 1.04. Easy tasks with 6 EPROMs. You have 512KB and the early TOS 1.0 there.
Thanks. I think there is a 4MB upgrade that can be hacked to the board
I had one of these, sold my C64 system for it. The SF314 is a double side-drive and was sold separately then the 520ST. The 354 was single-sided, the one I had. My 520ST was one with the RF modulator in it and had been upgraded to boot TOS in ROM. It wasn't a 520STfm. I'm slightly sad I sold it back in the early 90's Had the SM124 Mono display too, and hooked to my 14" TV.
Warning about the floppy, Atari uses the disk change line, I think other drives can be swapped out, but you have to fix the disk change detection jumpers. I built my own double-sided drive back in the 90's.
Great video. I had the 800xl. Absolutely loved it. So much fun programming.
Thanks
31:03 "we can't take it apart and clean it"
I mean not that you'd want to, but you can. There's only those 4 heatstakes holding it together, and it can be glued back together, or you can use a ziptie as a filler to restore the heatstakes with a soldering iron. But usually a bit of contact cleaner is just fine and you don't need to :D With deoxit it could be good for another eternity.
Those centering rings are intended to be adjusted in two ways: rotating both in unison and adjusting individually.
Yes, I had to zig-zag the picture down with both rings because it was too far up after my first adjustment.
6:30 The monitor looks reasonable. Probably about the same level of quality as the Commodore monitors made by Daewoo... which were actually pretty good. If you can check the flyback number and document it that will help to see if HR Diemen made a replacement for it.
I'll check!
Great video! It's about time some ST got some love. I have a few ST's that don't work and I need to fix them. Looking forward to seeing how you mod this system.
Thanks!
Come to think of it, the Atari ST mouse looks abit like the Tesla Cyber Truck lol, then you also have the Amiga "Tank Mouse" :))
I read somewhere that Elon had a VIC 20 as a kid. He finally upgraded lol
C915 is obviously one of the rare tongue caps.
I'll sell it on eBay and make a fortune!
Lmao
I love all the 8 and 16-bit micros in this form factor. I always wanted an Amiga 600 or 1200 growing up, even though they were well past being relevant. To be fair, I learned programming on two computers WAY past when they were relevant despite both having the best upgrades you could get ram, processor, etc. wise at the time (Apple iigs and Mac iici in late 90s). I ended up building my own micro of sorts, mostly cloning the Amiga 1200 design case wise but using a more complete standard 70% style custom keyboard layout combined with the internals out of a thin client that's more than good enough for my needs with it (Lenovo M92 Tiny PC with an i7 3770T processor upgrade, 16GB of ram, and an SSD) that I either boot to Linux, stripped down Linux straight into emulation, or to WinXP (one of the last tinypc/thinclients I could find with factory XP support, plays all XP era games I like perfectly). Eventually I'm going to build a smaller one, copying the 600 design that's powered by a mister setup. I can't be bothered to deal with real hardware, I'll live through youtubers and friends for that. I have enough costs with my massive camera/lens collection, and the iigs/iici are good enough for me real hardware wise.
Wow what an improvement! I would keep that monochrome display close by for Cubase and taking advantage of those delicious MIDI ports 😊
That's the plan actually :)
Also, there may be an adjustment in the vicinity of the flyback called 'pincushion' that can adjust the curvature of the image edges to remove that 'barrel' distortion.
Thanks, I never thought to check the flyback for pots
I find it funny that your Atari 520ST is neon beige. It could be your lighting, but it looks like it could glow in the dark.
Aren't they supposed to? ;)
Check out the Atari SideCart, the NetUSBee, and the UltraSatan storage projects too.
Thanks!
I still have my 520STFM bought since 1989. It was working some 15 years ago and never power up since. Eventually, I found another 520STFM from the recyclers and have been using it since. I need to recap and upgrade the RAM because almost nothing runs on a half-meg machine except for really old software.
Nice Atari ST restoration. Great job. Greetings from Steven from the Netherlands
Thanks
Thanks for this video. I own a TT030 i want to restore.
My STFM didn’t come with Atari Basic, so I bought a copy of the Mark Williams C compiler. I was also able to install an additional 512kb of DRAM as they hadn’t yet moved to surface mount chips. I did have to clear out the solder in the holes on the motherboard so I also put the CPU in a socket at the same time.
40:50 It looks like that cap has been baked by the big white resistor and the large transistor and heatsink. So yeah probably replace it if it's a common part.
Yeah, I think it's a regular film cap
The commodore sticker might have just been something an authorized third party commodore service centre used on any computer they repaired not by commodore itself.
The SM124 has a refresh rate of 71 Hz, quite flicker free for its day, and way better than the 60 Hz color modes. Also, 640x400 is much nicer to work with in terms of word processing, DTP and programming.
I noticed the image is really good!
0:00 It's well documented that Tramiel left Commodore January 13, 1984 ;-P
A Friday?
9:50 Too late now.... those security / service stickers can be removed easily using warm air like from a hair dryer. Just heat it a bit and use a very sharp knife or thin blade to lift it up. Don't overheat or it will melt and go hard and curl up.
Talking about Commodore service.....I remember taking my 64 in for service and when I got it back, I noticed they filled one of the screw holes with wax.
What! How annoying!
The design of this Atari mouse is very cool, but it's probably not very convenient to hold it in your hand. Very interesting CRT adjustment content, thanks.
Thanks. Yeah, the Cybertruck mouse isn't great. But it looks cool :)
An Atari SC1224 CRT would pair wonderfully with that, and tends to be fairly affordable. Atari also manufactured the excellent SC1435; basically a repackaged Phillips CM8833 MK2 / Commodore 1084S P1/2. Unfortunately, it’s really rare and expensive.
I've kept an eye out for the SC1435 but I've not been lucky yet. I do however have a CM8833-II :)
@@Epictronics1 Then that would also pair nicely with the Atari ST. Great work on the restoration; looking forward to the upgrade focused follow-up.
You can use left of the Space key (I think it is ALTErNATE) in combination with the tiny buttons above the arrow keys (I think INSERT etc.) on the left and right to access the mouse buttons on the keyboard. The Arrow keys also are the mouse direction. Dont press the bigger buttons on top, it kinda hangs up my Atari (not sure what the use of that is, but I cannot do anything after I pressed ALTERNATE and the bigger ones above the arrow keys). Maybe a bug or idk, really dumb to make a crash combination close to the mouse button function. The refresh rate should be 72 kHz (or Hz, idk) on the b/w output.
And you can take apart those switches in the mouse, just cut off the 4 nubsies and take it apart. You can melt it back together, best when you drive a soldering iron from top into the little rest-nubsies, ao you get some material back up and it will hold together again.
I'll try that if it misbehaves again, thanks
@@Epictronics1 Came here to offer the advice about alt-arrows/ins/del but was too slow, however I will add that shift-alt-arrows moves the pointer more finely. The ST and the amiga use the same types of mouse (and iirc a few less common machines and after-market mods for older machine do the same to make their lives easier), which only works in the first port; you can't use a joystick as an alternative for controlling the cursor.
You'll probably want to mute your machine using the arrows to navigate unless you love the repeating chime noise for each key stroke/repeat.
Regarding the "white spots": The screws on the front are shorter than the ones on the back. The problem happens when people mix up the screws...
New mic? Feels like there's a bit more chair sounds and such this week.
No, that was my stupid T-shirt making all that noise :( I use a lapel mic clipped to the shirt
Is there any machine you can’t restore? Beautiful!
Thanks. There probably is. I'll let you know when I mess it up lol.
Impossible: Everything on the InterWeb is True! 🤭
I don't really think of the ST as an Atari. It's just Commodore not keeping track of its kids. If Atari had created a next generation, it would have looked more like an Amiga and thanks to Jack's famous cheapness, the Amiga went from Atari to Commodore.
Its not refresh rate its how CRT display works. Thanks to that they offer perfect motion clarity at any circumstances.
If you're talking about the flickering, then no, it IS the refresh rate. Specifically the scan rate of the CRT vs. the frame rate of the camera. If they're in sync, then it looks like a static image. If they're off by a tiny bit, then you get a moving bar the slides up or down the screen. If you're off by more than a tiny bit, you get flickering.
Thanks for this one... it was quite interesting to see the calibration of the monitor.
On that note... have you checked the range of the pots? Maybe they don't work all across it, thus not being able to fill out the screen.
And at the risk of exposing myself as not knowing anything about CRTs, would it be possible to replace the pot with another one to extend the range?
The thought has occurred to me. It's quite risky but I have to try a pot-mod on one of my displays someday
@@Epictronics1 : Another thought that just came to me is, that it might not be the pots themselves.
Have you checked whether there are resistors on each end of the pot in question?? These would narrow down the pots' range.
If you change those resistors, you would change the outer limits.
I'm really not sure whether this would work on CRTs. But I have used this to calibrate a 555 timer based dimmer.
@@bikkiikun My thought was to bend one of the legs up on the pot and add a resistor. But maybe there already is a resistor that could be replaced. I'll check before I hack!
"Oh no, I can’t use this computer without a mouse". Read the manual :-) You can. Alt+Cursor = moves mouse; Alt+Insert = Left click; Alt+Cls = Right click.
You can install a Terrible Fire 536 accelerator in these ST computers too… giving you not just more RAM but a faster processor too
Sounds like fun. I'll check it out, thanks
That's a raspberry cap.
that cap has a diet of rice crispies. LMAO
I had to upgrade to one of the bigger Atari monochrome monitors as staring at the tiny SM124 would give me a headache. I still use my ST for making music, having pumped it out with 4MB of RAM.
I read somewhere that Kraftwerk used an ST. I'd love to try the ST with my vintage synths. I'll find some time to figure it out.
The combination of an ST with Steinberg's Pro-24 or later Cubase was pretty the standard in the 80s for computer based sequencing, so it wouldn't be a surprise that Kraftwerk used one. Cool that you're also a vintage synth fan! I use a mix of vintage stuff with a few of Behringer's recent clones.
@@chriswareham I'm a huge fan of Roland Junos. I just wish I had more time to use them!
You can get a laser PCB upgrade for that Atari mouse
has anyone tried it? if it's the one also up where they also made the amiga one, it was listed as a work in progress and never tested, so i hadn't seen anyone use it yet. i got the parts to do the amiga one, but i figured I'd Wait on the st till i saw someone actually build it. i hate ball mice 😀
@@brianv2871 yeah I have the Amiga Tank mice ones, they’re great. I don’t have an Atari mouse… you can also get an Amiga/Atari mouse port to USB adapter that even works with wireless mice
@@brianv2871 yes I have a few mice with the laser PCB upgrade
"This CRT hasn't seen much use and I probably won't use it that much either. I'll use something better"
you mean like an LCD? LMAO
you wish! lol
Retrobrighting is a waste of time and not worth the risk. It's temporary at best and it degrades the plastic. If you use the right paint and an airbrush, you can match the original color pretty closely and it won't look painted.
There's been a number of people testing all this and there's been no scientific proof that retrobriting via hydrogen peroxide (which is the current method) degrades the plastic. There's one very good video out there where they did the science. Definitely use paint if you prefer that, but most people aren't skilled at painting or have the right tools, so maybe not an option. That said, STs are especially difficult to retrobrite and can easily go south very quickly. I honestly wouldn't recommend the retrobrite method he used, it's better to use the liquid stuff and soak it (slower) vs the cream... you have to be extra diligent and careful with cream.
@@brianv2871 I still think it is a risk without any real reward. AFAIK, yellowing happens faster than the first time after retrobright. Hydrogen peroxide is an oxidizing agent. While I can't be sure it is damaging it, we know for certain it is not helping it. As 8 bit guy pointed out (IIRC, it was him), you're probably not getting it back to its stock color anyway. Yeah, the yellowing can be pretty unpleasant to look at and the bleached plastic looks better on youtube, but these computers are like us..... getting old and don't look like we once did.
The screws showing on the front look like pimples LOL
goldstar is now LG
Lucky Goldstar!
SM124 always had huge black borders around a tiny picture... if you calculate display timings, you'll see how many pixels are wasted in borders.
Most of them lol. I think it's possible to go even larger by hacking that board. It's a bit beyond my skills, but I don't doubt for a second that it can be done
@@Epictronics1 Of course it can be done, but that thick black frame is a part of the image generated by the ST. So by extending the image beyond some limit, you start to "wrap" the image around the picture tube.
@@Epictronics1 I've got a book on CRT TV/monitor repair written by a service technician and there was a section about blown components in the SM124 from people cranking their monitor way up high to get the image bigger.
Didn't stop me though and my monitors are still working. Might be also because I don't use them as much as they were back in the 80s. Just crank the width coil and not the B+ pot (unless you really have to because there's still an inch of black on each side)
@@senilyDeluxe Great! I try to leave the B+ alone on all my displays.
I literally couldnt force myself to use a ball mouse in 2024 :)
what deoxide did you used.... I use mostly wd-40
D5. WD40 is great too, but I use it mostly for cleaning
Can you share a link to the schematics?
Sure : archive.org/details/Atari_SM124_Schematic_1986_Atari/page/n3/mode/2up
@@Epictronics1 great, thanks a lot!
I think Commodore created a dedicated fan base that kept the demand high for both the C64 and Amigas, through brand loyalty. And even though the Atari 520 was a Jack Trammel guided endeavor, it never created that rabid fan base. Many Atari users quite happily jumped ship to Apple in the 90s, as they viewed the computer like a tool for expressing themselves rather than a cherished technical companion. Not a knock on the users that favored usability, it is just a different focus, but that focus precludes the formation of the community we see around Commodore products. Or at least that is my take on the difference in present day communities around the 16 bit home computers.
I'm an Atari user & never considered crApple for its overpriced inferior technology. Its attitude towards consumers today justified my distaste. Atari computers are quite popular in Europe, even today.
@@Mrshoujo Naturally, my statement was a sweeping generalization. But my point was that Atari users of the 80 and early 90 were less brand loyal to the sometimes crazy level of commodore fans. And I think that widespread loyalty created the market for vintage computers as it exists today. Spectrum lovers seems to be equally brand loyal, if we look at the prices of Speccy gear.
I actually feel like Amiga users were more inclined to go to Apple than Atari, only because Atari folks were a little more cost conscious and technical and Amiga folks were more artsy... (the exception maybe the musicians that used ataris). It's likely true that Atari users jumped ship quicker than amiga users jumped ship, but we weren't as invested in expensive hardware so we didn't have to justify our purchases quite as long 😀
I have to wonder where we would be if Jack had stayed with Commodore and kept it on the rails.
Commodore would still be around for sure!
@@Epictronics1 I can only imagine I would be enjoying this episode in full VR on my Amiga 69000 laptop and X86 was just a footnote in history as the chip used in IBMs somewhat successful but short lived attempt to bring a PC to market while Amiga and Apple evolved down the RISC/ARM path.
@@JamesHalfHorseThe reason the ibm spec won isn't because of commodore (and other early computer companies) mismanagement but because anyone could build and sell a pc clone. Companies like commodore and Atari were building closed, proprietary, non expandable hardware. Most of us switched, not because we liked pcs or because pcs were better, but because they were cheaper and could be upgraded by anyone... companies everywhere were invested in making new technology for them and competing on price. Even apple almost went out of business and honestly was saved not by their computers but by the ipod (and eventually iphone) and by convincing the world that their stuff is premium even if it isn't better.
@@brianv2871 I agree with you about PCs being open. The best thing IBM did was build them with off the shelf hardware. But if there had been 2 strong competitors using different arcitecture would x86 held on or would IBM have pulled an Apple and switched sides? But there is Apple who had their own ecosystem and have always been difficult to deal with as a third party but they became and remain the gold standard for people doing creative work and they had their rough times but people that used them stuck with them just like I think the creatives that used Amiga (I learned animation/video work on one) would have stuck with them if they could have. All things considered Apple ain't doing too bad these days. It would be nice if there were 3... or more players in the game still.
@@JamesHalfHorse Yeah, it doesn't seem like multiple competitors happen too often. With phones we only have two, even Microsoft was killed off in that battle, where one of them is open (Android) and one closed (apple). The closest comparison i can think of is maybe gaming platforms where there's technically three (sony, Microsoft, Nintendo) but that mostly exists because Nintendo went for a completely different market (kids) and had unique games that market wanted. Anyway, agree multiple competition is better, i just feel like even without commodore mismanagement, they didn't have anything distinguishing that would have kept them alive.. they got lucky buying Amiga (Atari was originally in line to buy them but their mismanagement cost them that). The amiga and c64 were their two big products, most everything else was a market failure (well, not sure about pet, before my time). Also, gotta think that a lot of atari dying was because tramiel made some terrible business decisions (like buying federated), so i don't think he could have saved commodore, he essentially built Commodores mismanagement and brought it over to Atari (who had their own issues already)
BASIC "for the Advanced programmer"
... ??
Yeah, probably not meant for me;)
DO NOT "adjust" an Atari SM124 monochrome monitor. A screen resolution of 640 X 400 is a "WYSIWYG" screen resolution, which is perfect for desktop publishing, drawing, and MIDI. When you "adjust" the screen, you mess up the "WYSIWYG" image. The same thing is true with the original Macintosh computers. NEVER adjust the screens, only stupid people do. 🙄
moos
🤮You started off on a bad note. In fact, scummy Jack Tramiel left Commodore in January of 1984 and completed the purchase of Atari on July 1st of that year. How hard would it have been for you to look that up before claiming otherwise?
And saying the inferior ST only took 5 months to develop ignores the fact that many of its components had been in development at Atari for years. It's a desperate attempt to make something ordinary, that was the worst 16 bit computer of the era, seem special.