Yes, the option packages are confusing, or opportunistic , depending if you're buying or selling. I'd want the wider track of the TrailBoss, but, my arthritic fingers really appreciate the heated steering wheel in my 2017 Z71 Tahoe. I'm convinced the 2.7 l engine is the right power unit.
I've owned a bunch of Colorado/Canyon trucks since 2006 and I really want to like the 2023 and from a looks perspective, I do. However, the seemingly misaligned packages and increased costs are holding me back. I think I'll keep my 2019 Z71 crew/short/4WD/3.6 with Bose, trailer brake controller, skid plates, dual power heated seats, steering wheel and soon-to-be-installed GM Accessories 1" leveling kit for maybe 90% of the performance that the Trail Boss offers. I purchased my Z71 new and IIRC, it stickered around $36k. It's been a great truck!
I agree options are nuts . Seat back pocket and back seat arm rest should be standard. If order cloth seats you can't have cruise control. They are forcing everyone to upgrade
I have no idea why I am so excited for this truck but I am! I agree that the packaging is strange in many aspects such as Chevy separating heated steering wheel from heated seats and not offering certain items like the 120V outlets on the TB.
All boils down to cost cutting and profit margins. They know a ton of people will buy the trail boss because they want the looks and 2 inch lift. So if they can delete a bunch of add-ons yet still charge 40k for the truck = pure profit
I agree with you Tim, I ordered a Z-71 last month my salesperson call me yesterday and said it being built next Monday. I’m really looking forward to getting it. I live in the suburbs but have a Cottage in the county on a dirt road. I’ve owned many Pickups but my wife can no longer get in a full size anymore (Rheumatoid Arthritis). I also went with the 18” tires better clearance for my wife and better on snow and dirt roads.
@@matth3wc yes it accepted everything I ordered except one thing (noise control,active noise cancellation). I assume that’s sound deadening insulation.
@@pagodad8079 I’ve always driven full size pickups, my wife has rheumatoid arthritis and has a hard time getting in, so I’m going down to a midsize pickup for her. I work for GM so I’m familiar with the Colorados.
I'd go Z71 as 95% of the time I'd be driving it on road and from all the reviews I've watched it looks overall for a daily use truck it's the sweet spot in the trim line. Yes, the Trailboss looks cooler with its lifted and wider stance the bigger off-road wheels but it's kind of bare bones compared to the Z71 especially noticeable in the interior. Now if I planned on off-roading at least 50% of the time I might go Trailboss but I'm not and the Z71 for me would be capable enough for my needs. Many of the features locked into add-on packages as Tim pointed out is such an obvious money grab. Seems like most of the manufacturers are doing it now to max out profits. You can easily add 5-10k to that advertised price with some features/comforts and the way their packaged is intentional again to max out profits. Won't be long now and the steering wheel will be in a driver's package and the pedals in a separate control package lol.
Bought a TB last week. Package matches are very eclectic. The TB interior is pretty pedestrian, but all glass gauges are great. I’m doing after market seats; leather heated and ventilated. Also the high output torque for the engine. It should be a good fit for me with a small utility trailer and borrowing a two axil trailer to pull my subcompact kubota.
I think I'd order and wait for the GMC as the models and packages seem to make more sense. Also, all the GMC's come standard with the HO engine. It seems like Chevy really missed the mark as I see a lot of buyers wanting to buy a Trail Boss that they can option up to be as nice as the Z71. You are 100% that the options and packages don't make any sense. In the end, they really want the MSRP to be closer to $50k as that is how most will equip their trucks. Reminds me of cable tv where you have to buy all the packages to get the few channels you really want. Just my $.02.
I ordered my Z71 in Sterling Gray, and the #1 pkg. Trying to keep the price down I opted out of the leather seats / Bose options. Also got little things like mud flaps, and the top engine upgrade. I’ll get aftermarket stainless running boards as I didn’t like their choices and will do a Line X spray on bedliner.
Off road capability is king for me but I'm not a go fast guy so I like the trail boss for my needs. That said my 2019 LT Colorado has tilt/telescopicsteering so the only excuse I see for what GM is doing is to try to force you into buying things you don't need. Along with the subscription to make the technology work I'm in no hurry to buy any of these new trucks. HOW DO YOU OFFER A TRAIL BOSS WITHOUT SKID PLATES, or ANY vehicle without tilt/telescopic wheel.
I looked at 1 but I asked about the navigation. I will not pay a monthly subscription when I paid for it when I buy the truck. I told them where to stick the truck. I bought a 23 frontier pro 4x. Love it.
I have a 2021 Z71 Crew Cab long Box 4x4 3.6 engine V6 right now. Very low miles & paid for. I like leather and heated seats and steering wheel are a must in the Denver area. I really like the new 2023 Colorado but with out a long box or a V-6 it is a no go. I just can't get my head around a 4 cylinder in a truck. I guess I can wait a couple of years and GM might bring back the long box and 6 cylinder. By then I will be ready to up grade. Yes the option packages are baffling. I guess I will be keeping my 2021 for a while.
@@Ogjavii I ordered one. They do back warranties in this Country and if you don't like it someone will buy it from you in a minute. Being a Gm retiree, I got about 5k off MSRP so if I sell I won't loose a dime.
@Javier Pérez it's not a new power train, they have used the engine and transmission in silverados and sierras for a few years. They did make improvements to the engine and transmission however
Well hopefully GM will make some adjustments within the coming years. I would really like a Trail Boss, but some of the things missing are just ridiculous.
Also thanks for the video - always good to hear perspectives and helped me make a buying decision (put a deposit down for one "in transit" today!!). As to complaints of cost -- I agree, the costs are pretty high. However, let's get some perspective here: Back in 1996, I bought a standard cab Nissan XE pickup, manual, anemic ~130HP 2WD short-bed truck for $13,500. I think that's about $28,000 in today's cash -- for a weak, bare-bones truck. The extended cab (I think...maybe they had a tiny crew) auto (and I think 2WD!) was $19, almost $20,000. That's about $39,000 in today's money. So back then, $39,000 got you a weak no-features (unless you count electric windows as a feature) extended cab pickup. I'd say we've progressed heavily in the "bang for buck" area, but yes, the bucks are getting up there.
The rear center armrest and map pockets are only available in EcoTek or leather seats. That makes sense on Chevy. Though I would expect those standard on GMC.
I was looking at possibly purchasing a Canyon AT4 until I found out that large parts of the dash and door panels were hard touch plastic. That reminds me too much of the 80’s GM vehicles and that hard touch stuff was crap. I also pivoted away from the midsize trucks after hearing so many journalists talk about the small back seats.
I believe when you order the 3 package it also includes tier 1 and tier 2 options. if you order tier 2 package that includes everything in tier 1 and tier 2. but I haven't looked into it.
Really liking the new Colorado and Canyon. Still on the top of my list. However, giving its almost March I am going to wait out on the new Tacoma to see what it has to offer.
I'm really torn on this. The Z71 has the off-road functionality that I want but they really bling up the price by burying things in the packages. I'm honestly almost starting to lean toward the LT as the sweet-spot for optioning up, but then you have to give up the 2-speed t-case 😭
Trail Boss is an entry-level off road truck. Z-71 is a package that allows a regular truck off road capability. Is that pretty much the gist of the packages? My 2500 is Z-71, but not really an off road beast, it tows my 5th wheel and allows me to get in the wet pasture and bad logging roads. That’s fine for my needs.
I need to compare trims, because I only want a few options. I prefer cloth seats without heat or cooling, standard cruise control, smaller wheels and more sidewall, no sunroof, and no special sound system. I do like the tilt and telescoping wheel mainly because I have to put the seat back for my legs and then the steering wheel is a reach.
100%. There should be a cold weather package that has heated seats and heated steering wheel. It should cost a couple hundred bucks how are we possibly paying over $40,000 for a midsize truck and I don’t get heated seats that just makes me feel very icky about buying that truck
It was the year 2023 and the Chevy truck wars had begun. The competition was fierce, with every automaker trying to outdo one another in every aspect of truck engineering. But it was the Chevy trucks that had captured the hearts of the people, with their sleek design, powerful engines, and advanced technology. At the heart of the Chevy truck wars was a chip that controlled the trucks' performance. The chip was the key to the truck's success, and the competition to create the best chip was intense. Many companies had tried and failed, but Chevy had succeeded in creating the perfect chip that would give their trucks an edge in the market. But there was a problem. A rival automaker had stolen Chevy's chip design and was using it in their own trucks. Chevy's engineers were outraged, and they vowed to take back what was rightfully theirs. One day, a young engineer named Jake was working late at the Chevy lab, trying to come up with a plan to regain the stolen chip. As he sat there, pouring over blueprints and schematics, he suddenly heard a noise in the lab. He turned around and saw a woman standing there, staring at him with a mixture of curiosity and surprise. "Who are you?" Jake asked. "My name is Amy," the woman replied. "I work for the rival automaker that stole your chip." Jake was taken aback. He had always assumed that the rival automaker was a heartless corporation that cared only about profits. But here was a woman who had risked her job and her reputation to come and talk to him. "Why did you come here?" Jake asked. "I came here to warn you," Amy said. "My bosses are planning to use the stolen chip to create a truck that will outdo yours. But they don't realize that the chip has a flaw. If they use it in their trucks, it could cause a dangerous malfunction." Jake listened intently as Amy explained the flaw in the chip's design. He realized that she was right, and that if the chip was used in the rival automaker's trucks, it could be disastrous. But more than that, he realized that he was falling in love with her. The two worked together to come up with a plan to stop the rival automaker from using the flawed chip. They spent countless hours in the lab, working side by side and getting to know each other. Jake realized that he had never felt this way about anyone before, and he knew that he wanted to spend the rest of his life with Amy. As the day of the big reveal drew closer, Jake and Amy were racing against time to make sure that the rival automaker's trucks wouldn't malfunction. They knew that if they succeeded, the Chevy trucks would be the only ones on the market with the flawless chip. Finally, the day arrived. The rival automaker was set to unveil their new trucks at a big auto show, and everyone in the industry was there to see them. Jake and Amy watched from the back of the room as the trucks rolled out onto the stage. At first, everything seemed fine. The trucks were sleek and powerful, and the crowd was impressed. But then, one by one, the trucks began to malfunction. Smoke billowed from their engines, and the sound of grinding gears filled the air. People began to panic, and the rival automaker's executives scrambled to explain what had gone wrong. Jake and Amy smiled at each other, knowing that their plan had worked. The Chevy trucks were the only ones on the market with the flawless chip, and people were starting to take notice. As they walked out of the auto show, hand in hand, Jake knew that he had found the love of his life. And he also knew that everyone should buy a Chevy truck.
Elaba, Mom said you need to get a job and stop gaming all day long. You have 30 days to get a job or you need to start paying rent. And you need to pay grandma back the 100 dollars she lent you for that new video game you just had to have. Stop taking advantage of grandma. Love, Dad.
I priced out the Z71 weeks ago at $46,855.00. I picked that trim level over the Trail Boss because of the nicer interior and LED headlights and ability to order the Bose radio. Not sure could live with the yellow piping on the ZR2.
I want a little more off-road bias than the Z-71 so am looking at the Canyon AT-4. When optioned out though it is really close in price to the ZR-2 so might go that route if they are not too hard to get. Will probably wait to see what Toyota comes out with though before making a final decision.
I think you're gonna need to buy this 4 banger and tax it for your next vehicle. We old-timers are like doctors...want to see the results of the stress tests before committing.
Trading in my 2011 ram 3500 mega can Laramie for. 23 Z71. Looks to be a nice truck, but yeah the packaging is wonky. Ordered one “in transit “, here’s hoping that’s soon. Yeah the price is uncomfortable, but that’s today’s market . I’ll be happy to not have to drive a barge and get way better mileage (with cheaper fuel!) - i think ultimately the cost savings will come to fruition…I only paid $36k (used) for the Ram about 8 years ago, about $21k trade-in - that’s an excellent $/year ratio.
My ZR2 is on order... well, deposit paid anyway. I agree that the packages are confusing, and quite frustrating. I was originally thinking Trail Boss,until I realized how bare bones it was. And I couldn't even add some of what I wanted. Then I considered the Z71. I could option it up to have all the things I wanted, but it didn't come with the lift/ wide stance, and was almost the same price as the ZR2 by the time I was done building it out. For just under 4k difference in price (between the way I built it the Z71 and the ZR2 I ordered) it seemed like a no-brainer to just get the ZR2.
Same boat as you. Z71 was tempting but zr2 was basically near the same price. I hope they accept my order on the 10th of April, I heard they might be 2 weeks delayed.
I agree. Pretty ridiculous in a crew cab you have a manual sliding rear window. My buddy's 21 TRD Sport has power rear slider and an actual USABLE wireless charging pad which my 21 Z71 does not. Only 2 things I like on that Tacoma that my truck doesn't have.
I wonder if GM is trying to minimize the crazy number of variations in the builds. Reducing variations should improve quality. But I agree there are some head scratches here like no seat back pocket.
I’m with you. I think the z71 is the sweet spot. Great looking truck. Still really expensive. I think I’m finally at a point in life where I’m gonna keep what I got for the long haul. Unless I win the lottery.
GM should be making most of their in-trim "convenience" or "confidence" packages standard within each trim. The problem is a lot of GM truck buyers still "don't wanna pay for any of that extra safety s#!t. I just want a Z71 package!" So it's left to the dealers to know their local clientele and order their inventory accordingly. Even if you're fluent in speaking GM, it's still just too damn complicated, especially compared with Toyota or Honda
For me personally the only real turn off on that truck is that the backseat is really small and the cabin size is going to be a little smaller for the amount of money you’re paying for zr2 you might as well just buy a full-size truck
I agree the bean counters at GM again and let their customers then the packaging and trim levels are a money grab they could finance their EV projects styling is great. We’ll see what Toyota has. Can’t wait for that to come out.
The packages contradict each other. Was all about the Z71 originally but honestly now think WT w plus engine 2WD and just add some off the mods I want. Save at least 10k.
@@wilmarbarrick3194 Yeah, I am just trying to figure out which of the two are better since he has had time in both. On paper the maverick has more legroom but not as much hip room
I ordered the nitro yellow z71 with most of the options except for the sun roof dint need one at the price they wanted 50k but considering my current colorado with none of the fancy add-ons the new one has not a bad upgrade
Everything you complained about, I have been saying for years about the Silverado. If I want a High Country with the Trail Boss appearance and suspension packages, there is absolutely no logical reason why I shouldn't. Trail Boss should be an option package, not a trim level. Chevy clearly hasn't learned from their mistake and, in fact, went the wrong direction with the Colorado. I'd love to get my son a Z71 Colorado with the Trail Boss suspension and appearance.
I will wait until the truck has been out for a year. The last 8-speed was hot garbage. Also really want to see the MPG number in the real world. My 2017 would get 24mpg on the highway doing 75-80.
Cruise doesn’t matter but in the northeast heated seats and steering with remote start is something i wont do without.just as a side note my ram bighorn 2021 night package and level 2 package 5.8 hemi everything i need quad cab was 50000$ msrp that’s how stupid it when they are asking almost that for a near top level mid size truck.good show you guys do good work
I think it's strange they used the cheap WT interior as the base for the Trail Boss. I want a Trail Boss but I really don't want that cheap plastic looking interior so guess I will hold off. I'm reading a lot of the comments and most people picked the Z71 because of the interior. I think Chevy should have had a Trail Boss based on the LT trim not the WT trim.
Why not just go with the GMC Canyon? Yeah it costs more but you get more standard equipment. For example all trims get the 430 ft/lbs tune and every trim gets the wide body. Seems like a better value to me.
I haven't seen anyone mention how the Google Nav, etc works if you don't have cell service. Are the Google maps downloaded into the unit for off cell service?
I suspect this optioning frustration is from it being the new kid on the block and once the new Toyota/Ford mid size trucks hit the street GM will put proper packaging out to compete.
It won't take much to get the cost of a TrailBoss to be more than the Z71. Z71 is my choice! I would consider when it is time to trade-in my 2022 Ridgeline Black Edition.
Ordered a Z71 in November. I believed in the concept and have seen nothing but great reviews on the 2.7 in the Silverado. No reason it wouldn’t be even better in a smaller platform. Should be receiving in the next couple of weeks. I’m in Fort Collins Tim if you want to dive further in.
@@huahin6149 Yes, order banks opened Nov 15, online configurator opened Dec 15. My dealer was able to see pricing on their end before it was released to the public. I was able to snag one of their first allocations.
It makes perfect sense to have heated seats and heated steering wheel in two separate packages, it makes you spend more! Which means more money for the automaker haha
I am getting the Colorado or Canyon over present Tacoma. Waiting to see new Tacoma first. The present Tacoma is not even a consideration now. I don't care for Ranger or Frontier at all.
I knew before I looked, a Toyota comment would be the first one I saw. You guys better hold your tongues a little,until you see if the next Tacoma is any better then the new tundra
I think the GMC AT4 Canyon is the best mix of features and off road capabilities. Does the trail boss have a wider body ? I heard some other reviews mentioned it.
@@Pickuptrucktalk are they getting the wider track solely from the wheel offset/tire width? Or is it using different control arms affecting travel? I see it has bigger flares to cover the tire.
I'm seriously interested in buying the chevy or gmc version once it's in the final model year lol. I learned never buy the first model year with my 22 frontier
Exactly the same boat I am in. I really like the Colorado but im worried about reliability and I grew up with a dad who had Tacomas so its familiar to me. I really hope the new tacomas bring their A game this year and I am also looking forward to seeing the Ridgeline with the new off road trim that its apparently getting later this year as well!
Is Ridgeline getting a refresh too? I thought it was just Tacoma and Ranger that we were going to see but might turn out to be a very busy year for the midsize segment if so.
@@ALMX5DP I don't think so. Maybe the HPD package will be a little more than an appearance package. I think they upgraded Pilot with skid plates, little lift, tires and such.
@@wilmarbarrick3194 ah yeah the Trail Sport stuff. I think HPD already has a few ads ons for the Ridgeline but if there’s something even more coming soon that would be pretty cool to see.
I am guessing the only new thing we will see in the 2024 Ridgeline is the addition of a Trail Sport trim to the existing offerings. Very nice, but nothing as substantive as what is happening this year to the new Colorado/Canyon, Ranger, and Tacoma and to the Frontier last year. I am waiting until the end of 2024 to purchase, so I will have plenty of time to see how all this plays out.
Best way to think of it is that the Trail Boss is just a WT with a lift. As such, it's only optioned like a WT. You can't compare it to anything higher. It's not meant to be as much as we would like it so, in order to pick and choose the upper end options that you feel entitled to. A Z71 is for the folks that like to be pampered day to day and want basic competence off road. ZR2 is for those that want it all but aren't really going to use a truck as a truck because the payload and towing capabilities are shit. And the LT, well I'm convinced that the LT is just there for when a salesperson is stuck with a customer that has zero clue what they want other than they know that they want a truck and they don't want a work truck but have no idea how to spec one out. 5 great trims actually. Give Chevy a few years and they'll sort out adding the Trail Boss trim and addressing everyone's concerns across all of the trims. It's what Chevy is best at. Ford is a close second. GM and Dodge can do it too, but they just charge you double for their inconvenience. Toyota absorbs all of the data, puts it in a bullet proof package and offers no options on 4 trims for 15 years. Nissan will still be selling their current "modern" design 20 years from now, but will become more appealing as years go by because the price is almost unchanged and folks become nostalgic for a cheap truck and a V6.
I think nobody is talking about the new Canyon and what its going to option out as. Yes price will be different but an AT4 will have more luxury features then the Trail Boos and might be the better pick.
@@Pickuptrucktalk Oh I agree but its the same platform so should be very similar just more upscale. Waiting on Tacoma or Ranger good idea too. Really unless you need to get one now probably better to wait.
I’d get an AT4 to better balance creature comforts and some off road capabilities. Just walked my mom through ordering one…. Currently waiting for the order to be accepted.
Ordered an AT4 as well for same reason....bettwr combination of everything I need my truck to be capable of. Dealership figures it'll be in my hand in about 6 to 8 weeks 🙏
I don't think it's an "add on" from the factory but an authorized dealership flash -- supposedly. Like a dealership service - doesn't show up on options page.
If I needed a truck that was a few inches smaller than a Silverado, just as heavy as a Silverado, had the same engine as a Silverado, looked much like the Silverado, was nearly as expensive as the Silverado and had a lot less capability and interior size, I'd get a Colorado.
Size matters a lot in some situations - 2 feet shorter body and about 1.5 feet shorter wheelbase makes a significant difference in maneuverability especially on trails or in tight city conditions. Also, the Colorado (Z71) actually has slightly more driver legroom (what I mostly care about, since it's just me usually in the truck) than the Silverado Crew, though it definitely loses in every other interior dimension. It also has about 1" more ground clearance than Silverado's Crew non-lifted variant. I'll admit, I'm genuinely curious as to why the Colorado weighs about the same or a bit more than the Silverado - that actually boggles my mind. Also, roughly similar trimmed silverados and Colorados are a big difference in price - my mostly-maxed Colorado hit me for $47,100 or so. The roughlly-equivalent Silverado 1500 LT Trailboss 4WD 2.7L with similar packages is $66,800.
It's going to be a hard sale to the thousands of people that had destroyed engines at 80,000 miles because of a stretched timing chain that GM didn't stand behind.
Doesn't make sense = Chevy nickel and diming their customers. If I ever get money I was thinking the Trail Boss would be the trim for me but seeing all the features not even offered as an option has changed my mind. Hopefully the new Tacoma leapfrogs this and offers a better value.
zr2 only '11-inch Diagonal Color Driver Info Center' . The rest of the trim is an '8-inch diagonal multicolor driver information center'. This is a bad policy.
Yes, the option packages are confusing, or opportunistic , depending if you're buying or selling. I'd want the wider track of the TrailBoss, but, my arthritic fingers really appreciate the heated steering wheel in my 2017 Z71 Tahoe. I'm convinced the 2.7 l engine is the right power unit.
I've owned a bunch of Colorado/Canyon trucks since 2006 and I really want to like the 2023 and from a looks perspective, I do. However, the seemingly misaligned packages and increased costs are holding me back.
I think I'll keep my 2019 Z71 crew/short/4WD/3.6 with Bose, trailer brake controller, skid plates, dual power heated seats, steering wheel and soon-to-be-installed GM Accessories 1" leveling kit for maybe 90% of the performance that the Trail Boss offers. I purchased my Z71 new and IIRC, it stickered around $36k. It's been a great truck!
I'd keep the 2019 too and wait and see how these thing are after some time and miles go by.
I agree options are nuts . Seat back pocket and back seat arm rest should be standard. If order cloth seats you can't have cruise control. They are forcing everyone to upgrade
I have no idea why I am so excited for this truck but I am! I agree that the packaging is strange in many aspects such as Chevy separating heated steering wheel from heated seats and not offering certain items like the 120V outlets on the TB.
All boils down to cost cutting and profit margins. They know a ton of people will buy the trail boss because they want the looks and 2 inch lift. So if they can delete a bunch of add-ons yet still charge 40k for the truck = pure profit
I agree with you Tim, I ordered a Z-71 last month my salesperson call me yesterday and said it being built next Monday. I’m really looking forward to getting it. I live in the suburbs but have a Cottage in the county on a dirt road. I’ve owned many Pickups but my wife can no longer get in a full size anymore (Rheumatoid Arthritis). I also went with the 18” tires better clearance for my wife and better on snow and dirt roads.
Curious, why did you buy before test driving?
congratulations on the new truck
did you order with the adaptive cruise control and or 360 surround vision? I've heard they are not always available.
@@matth3wc yes it accepted everything I ordered except one thing (noise control,active noise cancellation). I assume that’s sound deadening insulation.
@@pagodad8079 I’ve always driven full size pickups, my wife has rheumatoid arthritis and has a hard time getting in, so I’m going down to a midsize pickup for her. I work for GM so I’m familiar with the Colorados.
You can't stop a video that hasn't started
I'd go Z71 as 95% of the time I'd be driving it on road and from all the reviews I've watched it looks overall for a daily use truck it's the sweet spot in the trim line. Yes, the Trailboss looks cooler with its lifted and wider stance the bigger off-road wheels but it's kind of bare bones compared to the Z71 especially noticeable in the interior. Now if I planned on off-roading at least 50% of the time I might go Trailboss but I'm not and the Z71 for me would be capable enough for my needs.
Many of the features locked into add-on packages as Tim pointed out is such an obvious money grab. Seems like most of the manufacturers are doing it now to max out profits. You can easily add 5-10k to that advertised price with some features/comforts and the way their packaged is intentional again to max out profits. Won't be long now and the steering wheel will be in a driver's package and the pedals in a separate control package lol.
Bought a TB last week. Package matches are very eclectic. The TB interior is pretty pedestrian, but all glass gauges are great. I’m doing after market seats; leather heated and ventilated. Also the high output torque for the engine. It should be a good fit for me with a small utility trailer and borrowing a two axil trailer to pull my subcompact kubota.
I think I'd order and wait for the GMC as the models and packages seem to make more sense. Also, all the GMC's come standard with the HO engine. It seems like Chevy really missed the mark as I see a lot of buyers wanting to buy a Trail Boss that they can option up to be as nice as the Z71. You are 100% that the options and packages don't make any sense. In the end, they really want the MSRP to be closer to $50k as that is how most will equip their trucks. Reminds me of cable tv where you have to buy all the packages to get the few channels you really want. Just my $.02.
Very true I ordered the z71 ended up being 50k but I like my current colorado and wanted all the stuff with the new one has so for me worth it
I ordered my Z71 in Sterling Gray, and the #1 pkg. Trying to keep the price down I opted out of the leather seats / Bose options. Also got little things like mud flaps, and the top engine upgrade. I’ll get aftermarket stainless running boards as I didn’t like their choices and will do a Line X spray on bedliner.
Off road capability is king for me but I'm not a go fast guy so I like the trail boss for my needs. That said my 2019 LT Colorado has tilt/telescopicsteering so the only excuse I see for what GM is doing is to try to force you into buying things you don't need. Along with the subscription to make the technology work I'm in no hurry to buy any of these new trucks.
HOW DO YOU OFFER A TRAIL BOSS WITHOUT SKID PLATES, or ANY vehicle without tilt/telescopic wheel.
I looked at 1 but I asked about the navigation. I will not pay a monthly subscription when I paid for it when I buy the truck. I told them where to stick the truck. I bought a 23 frontier pro 4x. Love it.
I have a 2021 Z71 Crew Cab long Box 4x4 3.6 engine V6 right now. Very low miles & paid for. I like leather and heated seats and steering wheel are a must in the Denver area. I really like the new 2023 Colorado but with out a long box or a V-6 it is a no go. I just can't get my head around a 4 cylinder in a truck. I guess I can wait a couple of years and GM might bring back the long box and 6 cylinder. By then I will be ready to up grade. Yes the option packages are baffling. I guess I will be keeping my 2021 for a while.
Brave man buying a first year GM product. I learned a long time ago not to do that.
I’m thinking of trading in my 2016 Ram 1500 5.7 for this thing. Kinda wanna wait to see how this new power train does before I make the move.
@@Ogjavii I ordered one. They do back warranties in this Country and if you don't like it someone will buy it from you in a minute. Being a Gm retiree, I got about 5k off MSRP so if I sell I won't loose a dime.
@Javier Pérez it's not a new power train, they have used the engine and transmission in silverados and sierras for a few years. They did make improvements to the engine and transmission however
You and I want similar things but I do want the off road stuff. The GMC Canyon AT 4 is our sweet spot. Also much more expensive.
If I was in the market for one of these I’d go for the Canyon AT4 with the lift. Agreed, it is the sweet spot.
Well hopefully GM will make some adjustments within the coming years. I would really like a Trail Boss, but some of the things missing are just ridiculous.
Why the hell can't i get a sunroof in the trailboss, its the same effin cab!
Also thanks for the video - always good to hear perspectives and helped me make a buying decision (put a deposit down for one "in transit" today!!).
As to complaints of cost -- I agree, the costs are pretty high. However, let's get some perspective here:
Back in 1996, I bought a standard cab Nissan XE pickup, manual, anemic ~130HP 2WD short-bed truck for $13,500. I think that's about $28,000 in today's cash -- for a weak, bare-bones truck.
The extended cab (I think...maybe they had a tiny crew) auto (and I think 2WD!) was $19, almost $20,000. That's about $39,000 in today's money.
So back then, $39,000 got you a weak no-features (unless you count electric windows as a feature) extended cab pickup.
I'd say we've progressed heavily in the "bang for buck" area, but yes, the bucks are getting up there.
The rear center armrest and map pockets are only available in EcoTek or leather seats. That makes sense on Chevy. Though I would expect those standard on GMC.
I was looking at possibly purchasing a Canyon AT4 until I found out that large parts of the dash and door panels were hard touch plastic. That reminds me too much of the 80’s GM vehicles and that hard touch stuff was crap. I also pivoted away from the midsize trucks after hearing so many journalists talk about the small back seats.
I believe when you order the 3 package it also includes tier 1 and tier 2 options. if you order tier 2 package that includes everything in tier 1 and tier 2. but I haven't looked into it.
Double check that, I don't think that is the way it works.
Really liking the new Colorado and Canyon. Still on the top of my list. However, giving its almost March I am going to wait out on the new Tacoma to see what it has to offer.
I'm really torn on this. The Z71 has the off-road functionality that I want but they really bling up the price by burying things in the packages. I'm honestly almost starting to lean toward the LT as the sweet-spot for optioning up, but then you have to give up the 2-speed t-case 😭
Trail Boss is an entry-level off road truck. Z-71 is a package that allows a regular truck off road capability. Is that pretty much the gist of the packages? My 2500 is Z-71, but not really an off road beast, it tows my 5th wheel and allows me to get in the wet pasture and bad logging roads. That’s fine for my needs.
No confusion. Placed my order for ZR2 3/11/2023.
I need to compare trims, because I only want a few options. I prefer cloth seats without heat or cooling, standard cruise control, smaller wheels and more sidewall, no sunroof, and no special sound system. I do like the tilt and telescoping wheel mainly because I have to put the seat back for my legs and then the steering wheel is a reach.
100%. There should be a cold weather package that has heated seats and heated steering wheel. It should cost a couple hundred bucks how are we possibly paying over $40,000 for a midsize truck and I don’t get heated seats that just makes me feel very icky about buying that truck
I'm still waiting for a heated skid plate.
It was the year 2023 and the Chevy truck wars had begun. The competition was fierce, with every automaker trying to outdo one another in every aspect of truck engineering. But it was the Chevy trucks that had captured the hearts of the people, with their sleek design, powerful engines, and advanced technology.
At the heart of the Chevy truck wars was a chip that controlled the trucks' performance. The chip was the key to the truck's success, and the competition to create the best chip was intense. Many companies had tried and failed, but Chevy had succeeded in creating the perfect chip that would give their trucks an edge in the market.
But there was a problem. A rival automaker had stolen Chevy's chip design and was using it in their own trucks. Chevy's engineers were outraged, and they vowed to take back what was rightfully theirs.
One day, a young engineer named Jake was working late at the Chevy lab, trying to come up with a plan to regain the stolen chip. As he sat there, pouring over blueprints and schematics, he suddenly heard a noise in the lab. He turned around and saw a woman standing there, staring at him with a mixture of curiosity and surprise.
"Who are you?" Jake asked.
"My name is Amy," the woman replied. "I work for the rival automaker that stole your chip."
Jake was taken aback. He had always assumed that the rival automaker was a heartless corporation that cared only about profits. But here was a woman who had risked her job and her reputation to come and talk to him.
"Why did you come here?" Jake asked.
"I came here to warn you," Amy said. "My bosses are planning to use the stolen chip to create a truck that will outdo yours. But they don't realize that the chip has a flaw. If they use it in their trucks, it could cause a dangerous malfunction."
Jake listened intently as Amy explained the flaw in the chip's design. He realized that she was right, and that if the chip was used in the rival automaker's trucks, it could be disastrous. But more than that, he realized that he was falling in love with her.
The two worked together to come up with a plan to stop the rival automaker from using the flawed chip. They spent countless hours in the lab, working side by side and getting to know each other. Jake realized that he had never felt this way about anyone before, and he knew that he wanted to spend the rest of his life with Amy.
As the day of the big reveal drew closer, Jake and Amy were racing against time to make sure that the rival automaker's trucks wouldn't malfunction. They knew that if they succeeded, the Chevy trucks would be the only ones on the market with the flawless chip.
Finally, the day arrived. The rival automaker was set to unveil their new trucks at a big auto show, and everyone in the industry was there to see them. Jake and Amy watched from the back of the room as the trucks rolled out onto the stage.
At first, everything seemed fine. The trucks were sleek and powerful, and the crowd was impressed. But then, one by one, the trucks began to malfunction. Smoke billowed from their engines, and the sound of grinding gears filled the air. People began to panic, and the rival automaker's executives scrambled to explain what had gone wrong.
Jake and Amy smiled at each other, knowing that their plan had worked. The Chevy trucks were the only ones on the market with the flawless chip, and people were starting to take notice.
As they walked out of the auto show, hand in hand, Jake knew that he had found the love of his life. And he also knew that everyone should buy a Chevy truck.
Well that's quite the story. Did you come up with that all by yourself?
Elaba, Mom said you need to get a job and stop gaming all day long. You have 30 days to get a job or you need to start paying rent. And you need to pay grandma back the 100 dollars she lent you for that new video game you just had to have. Stop taking advantage of grandma. Love, Dad.
@@pryme2013 no need for a snarky response. They’ve got some good literary talent and seem to enjoy being creative.
@@ALMX5DP I thought my hemorrhoids were flaring up but nope, it’s just you.
@@pryme2013 increasing your fiber can help with the former. Sorry if you’re offended by someone calling out you being offensive.
Bought one myself. Currently being built and should be in my driveway by May
I priced out the Z71 weeks ago at $46,855.00. I picked that trim level over the Trail Boss because of the nicer interior and LED headlights and ability to order the Bose radio. Not sure could live with the yellow piping on the ZR2.
Add another $10,000 to that if you're in Canada
The interiors on the ZR2 and AT4x are too polarizing
I want a little more off-road bias than the Z-71 so am looking at the Canyon AT-4. When optioned out though it is really close in price to the ZR-2 so might go that route if they are not too hard to get. Will probably wait to see what Toyota comes out with though before making a final decision.
I think you're gonna need to buy this 4 banger and tax it for your next vehicle. We old-timers are like doctors...want to see the results of the stress tests before committing.
Trading in my 2011 ram 3500 mega can Laramie for. 23 Z71. Looks to be a nice truck, but yeah the packaging is wonky.
Ordered one “in transit “, here’s hoping that’s soon.
Yeah the price is uncomfortable, but that’s today’s market .
I’ll be happy to not have to drive a barge and get way better mileage (with cheaper fuel!) - i think ultimately the cost savings will come to fruition…I only paid $36k (used) for the Ram about 8 years ago, about $21k trade-in - that’s an excellent $/year ratio.
My ZR2 is on order... well, deposit paid anyway.
I agree that the packages are confusing, and quite frustrating. I was originally thinking Trail Boss,until I realized how bare bones it was. And I couldn't even add some of what I wanted.
Then I considered the Z71. I could option it up to have all the things I wanted, but it didn't come with the lift/ wide stance, and was almost the same price as the ZR2 by the time I was done building it out.
For just under 4k difference in price (between the way I built it the Z71 and the ZR2 I ordered) it seemed like a no-brainer to just get the ZR2.
Same boat as you. Z71 was tempting but zr2 was basically near the same price. I hope they accept my order on the 10th of April, I heard they might be 2 weeks delayed.
@Garlander April 10th is the day I was told as well. I haven't heard of any delays and hope there aren't. Really looking forward to getting it.
I’m sold on the 2.7 but the 8 speed, updated or not, worries me.
Should have done the 10 speed like ford did on the Ranger
Hey Tim don't forget you can add the Performance Software Upgrade also to get what's in the ZR2
I noticed in all those packages the rear slider is manual, most newer trucks have a button you can push to open n close it.
Cost savings.
I agree. Pretty ridiculous in a crew cab you have a manual sliding rear window. My buddy's 21 TRD Sport has power rear slider and an actual USABLE wireless charging pad which my 21 Z71 does not. Only 2 things I like on that Tacoma that my truck doesn't have.
I wonder if GM is trying to minimize the crazy number of variations in the builds. Reducing variations should improve quality. But I agree there are some head scratches here like no seat back pocket.
Great video Tim!! Thanks for your time!
I’m with you. I think the z71 is the sweet spot. Great looking truck. Still really expensive. I think I’m finally at a point in life where I’m gonna keep what I got for the long haul. Unless I win the lottery.
GM should be making most of their in-trim "convenience" or "confidence" packages standard within each trim. The problem is a lot of GM truck buyers still "don't wanna pay for any of that extra safety s#!t. I just want a Z71 package!" So it's left to the dealers to know their local clientele and order their inventory accordingly. Even if you're fluent in speaking GM, it's still just too damn complicated, especially compared with Toyota or Honda
For me personally the only real turn off on that truck is that the backseat is really small and the cabin size is going to be a little smaller for the amount of money you’re paying for zr2 you might as well just buy a full-size truck
I agree the bean counters at GM again and let their customers then the packaging and trim levels are a money grab they could finance their EV projects styling is great. We’ll see what Toyota has. Can’t wait for that to come out.
I would like to order a ZR2. Yes I would agree on the packages. They don't make sense to me either.
The packages contradict each other. Was all about the Z71 originally but honestly now think WT w plus engine 2WD and just add some off the mods I want. Save at least 10k.
How does the back seat compare to the Maverick? Legroom, width, and which do you feel is better?
I think he said in his review that 4 adult males would be problematic.
@@wilmarbarrick3194 Yeah, I am just trying to figure out which of the two are better since he has had time in both. On paper the maverick has more legroom but not as much hip room
I ordered the nitro yellow z71 with most of the options except for the sun roof dint need one at the price they wanted 50k but considering my current colorado with none of the fancy add-ons the new one has not a bad upgrade
Everything you complained about, I have been saying for years about the Silverado. If I want a High Country with the Trail Boss appearance and suspension packages, there is absolutely no logical reason why I shouldn't. Trail Boss should be an option package, not a trim level. Chevy clearly hasn't learned from their mistake and, in fact, went the wrong direction with the Colorado. I'd love to get my son a Z71 Colorado with the Trail Boss suspension and appearance.
I’m just going to wait for the Canyon Denali! Might be a few grand more but it will have everything!
Have looked at the hmc canyon i think u can get all the options and the lift and exterior stuff in one
I'm not really talking about it since I haven't driven it yet. I like to experience it before I get deep into the weeds on it.
Agree, nickel and dime, it’s a crying shame and confusing. I like the safety and convenience features for my truck.
I will wait until the truck has been out for a year. The last 8-speed was hot garbage. Also really want to see the MPG number in the real world. My 2017 would get 24mpg on the highway doing 75-80.
Cruise doesn’t matter but in the northeast heated seats and steering with remote start is something i wont do without.just as a side note my ram bighorn 2021 night package and level 2 package 5.8 hemi everything i need quad cab was 50000$ msrp that’s how stupid it when they are asking almost that for a near top level mid size truck.good show you guys do good work
Cruise control an option on a high trim package? My Tundra and Tacoma with the basic SR5 package had most of those options.
Fender liners an option on a F150??? Maybe a Lada would be better.
Does the Trail Boss come with 4 tires or is that a package?
I think it's strange they used the cheap WT interior as the base for the Trail Boss. I want a Trail Boss but I really don't want that cheap plastic looking interior so guess I will hold off. I'm reading a lot of the comments and most people picked the Z71 because of the interior. I think Chevy should have had a Trail Boss based on the LT trim not the WT trim.
Why not just go with the GMC Canyon? Yeah it costs more but you get more standard equipment. For example all trims get the 430 ft/lbs tune and every trim gets the wide body. Seems like a better value to me.
I'm not really talking about it since I haven't driven it yet. I like to experience it before I get deep into the weeds on it.
I haven't seen anyone mention how the Google Nav, etc works if you don't have cell service. Are the Google maps downloaded into the unit for off cell service?
How are the seats in the new ones? My 2016 Colorado seats are terrible!
I suspect this optioning frustration is from it being the new kid on the block and once the new Toyota/Ford mid size trucks hit the street GM will put proper packaging out to compete.
What about getting an AT4 Canyon ? is that not the best of both ? i have not deep dived .
Probably a good thought. I'm waiting to drive the GMC Canyon before I do much cross shopping. Driving the Colorado changed my mind on several things.
@@Pickuptrucktalk i dont like the tan/gold accents of the AT4 s interior ,but that is subjective .
It won't take much to get the cost of a TrailBoss to be more than the Z71. Z71 is my choice! I would consider when it is time to trade-in my 2022 Ridgeline Black Edition.
People say they want a stripped down off-road truck. We will see if those people will put their money where their mouth is.
It's so strange that the trail boss is under the Z71. It's totally opposite from the Silverado and the way they've always done it.
Nickel and dimming is the name of the game. Just paying more for less truck these days.
They should have kept the Custom option. A nicer WT with 18in rims & cruise control
Reminds me of the Subaru Outback Wilderness has no heated wheel option. Like, huh? It’s an “outdoor, off-road” vehicle. Yet no heated wheel. Lol
Ordered a Z71 in November. I believed in the concept and have seen nothing but great reviews on the 2.7 in the Silverado. No reason it wouldn’t be even better in a smaller platform. Should be receiving in the next couple of weeks. I’m in Fort Collins Tim if you want to dive further in.
Agree on 2.7L I4T, excellent choice that will far exceed the outging V6 & BabyMax with its whopping 181hp lol.
You ordered a 2023 in November?
I couldn't until March .
@@huahin6149 Yes, order banks opened Nov 15, online configurator opened Dec 15. My dealer was able to see pricing on their end before it was released to the public. I was able to snag one of their first allocations.
This is why I’d order the GMC AT4
It makes perfect sense to have heated seats and heated steering wheel in two separate packages, it makes you spend more! Which means more money for the automaker haha
Z71 is the sweet spot. Enjoy it, then put a custom lift on it later. And yes...I am not a fan of how the car companies "Package" things now a days.
Dealers can order one in any configuration you want
I agree they are squeezing their loyal customers and pushing people towards Toyota.
Colorado shits on the tacoma tho
I am getting the Colorado or Canyon over present Tacoma. Waiting to see new Tacoma first. The present Tacoma is not even a consideration now. I don't care for Ranger or Frontier at all.
@@RCian2000 How do you know? We haven’t seen the next generation Tacoma yet. Or maybe you have superhuman powers and can see into the future?
I knew before I looked, a Toyota comment would be the first one I saw. You guys better hold your tongues a little,until you see if the next Tacoma is any better then the new tundra
the price difference of between the two trucks once built to my liking is less than 4k at that time what would you be happier in?
I think the GMC AT4 Canyon is the best mix of features and off road capabilities. Does the trail boss have a wider body ? I heard some other reviews mentioned it.
yes a wider track. Basically the tires and fenders stick out more. I should have mentioned it.
@@Pickuptrucktalk are they getting the wider track solely from the wheel offset/tire width? Or is it using different control arms affecting travel? I see it has bigger flares to cover the tire.
@@0psec You know, I never thought to ask. The press release says the Trail Boss has a “wider chassis” which I would take to me longer control arms.
Does the z71 have the g80 locker? Seems like the better truck if it does.
I'm seriously interested in buying the chevy or gmc version once it's in the final model year lol. I learned never buy the first model year with my 22 frontier
Nickel and dime, and then the price is crazy.... they simplified the trim levels and complicated the options, making the whole purchase out of touch.
I have a 2020 Ram Limited and was thinking about downgrading to a mid-size, but all of this nickel and diming BS is a real turn off.
Exactly the same boat I am in. I really like the Colorado but im worried about reliability and I grew up with a dad who had Tacomas so its familiar to me. I really hope the new tacomas bring their A game this year and I am also looking forward to seeing the Ridgeline with the new off road trim that its apparently getting later this year as well!
Is Ridgeline getting a refresh too? I thought it was just Tacoma and Ranger that we were going to see but might turn out to be a very busy year for the midsize segment if so.
@@ALMX5DP I don't think so. Maybe the HPD package will be a little more than an appearance package. I think they upgraded Pilot with skid plates, little lift, tires and such.
@@wilmarbarrick3194 ah yeah the Trail Sport stuff. I think HPD already has a few ads ons for the Ridgeline but if there’s something even more coming soon that would be pretty cool to see.
I am hoping the Ridgeline is getting a FMC because I do not like the current interior, but might be interested in it with the Pilot design
I am guessing the only new thing we will see in the 2024 Ridgeline is the addition of a Trail Sport trim to the existing offerings. Very nice, but nothing as substantive as what is happening this year to the new Colorado/Canyon, Ranger, and Tacoma and to the Frontier last year. I am waiting until the end of 2024 to purchase, so I will have plenty of time to see how all this plays out.
I just asked ChatGPT if Tim knew what he was doing...all I got was a laugh in response.
LOL
Best way to think of it is that the Trail Boss is just a WT with a lift. As such, it's only optioned like a WT. You can't compare it to anything higher. It's not meant to be as much as we would like it so, in order to pick and choose the upper end options that you feel entitled to. A Z71 is for the folks that like to be pampered day to day and want basic competence off road. ZR2 is for those that want it all but aren't really going to use a truck as a truck because the payload and towing capabilities are shit.
And the LT, well I'm convinced that the LT is just there for when a salesperson is stuck with a customer that has zero clue what they want other than they know that they want a truck and they don't want a work truck but have no idea how to spec one out.
5 great trims actually. Give Chevy a few years and they'll sort out adding the Trail Boss trim and addressing everyone's concerns across all of the trims.
It's what Chevy is best at. Ford is a close second. GM and Dodge can do it too, but they just charge you double for their inconvenience. Toyota absorbs all of the data, puts it in a bullet proof package and offers no options on 4 trims for 15 years.
Nissan will still be selling their current "modern" design 20 years from now, but will become more appealing as years go by because the price is almost unchanged and folks become nostalgic for a cheap truck and a V6.
these trucks look great, I hope they're reliable- if so these trucks will go head to head with the Tacoma and frontier for sure !
That steering wheel would be the thing for me. It makes all the difference when getting comfortable for long trips… or commuting.
If I lived in the mountains I'd opt for the zr2 living somewhere that's an 8 hour drive away from trees and mountains I'd opt for a lower package.
I think they really try get you with packages . For me I think trial boss would be good enough for me .
I think nobody is talking about the new Canyon and what its going to option out as. Yes price will be different but an AT4 will have more luxury features then the Trail Boos and might be the better pick.
I'm not really talking about it since I haven't driven it yet. I like to experience it before I get deep into the weeds on it.
@@Pickuptrucktalk Oh I agree but its the same platform so should be very similar just more upscale. Waiting on Tacoma or Ranger good idea too. Really unless you need to get one now probably better to wait.
The dumbest packages ever. Prices are ridiculous but I do want to get. A Z71
I’d get an AT4 to better balance creature comforts and some off road capabilities. Just walked my mom through ordering one…. Currently waiting for the order to be accepted.
Ordered an AT4 as well for same reason....bettwr combination of everything I need my truck to be capable of. Dealership figures it'll be in my hand in about 6 to 8 weeks 🙏
I'm a 2019 ZR2 bison blue with a supercharger if I can get thier
Just get the canyon at4 it has everything the z71 has plus the 2 inch lift and the higher output engine
Not sold on the turbo 4 banger. Would go with the Frontier.
Tim,
How about looking for a Canyon?
All are lifted and have the high output engine.
Not until I get a chance to drive one.
I like the Trailboss but I’m also waiting for the new Tacoma before I make a decision
I thought you could get the biggest engine in the Z71 but I couldn’t find the option to do so. I will also wait to see what Ford and Toyota do
I don't think it's an "add on" from the factory but an authorized dealership flash -- supposedly. Like a dealership service - doesn't show up on options page.
If I needed a truck that was a few inches smaller than a Silverado, just as heavy as a Silverado, had the same engine as a Silverado, looked much like the Silverado, was nearly as expensive as the Silverado and had a lot less capability and interior size, I'd get a Colorado.
Just kidding, I'd get a Silverado :)
Size matters a lot in some situations - 2 feet shorter body and about 1.5 feet shorter wheelbase makes a significant difference in maneuverability especially on trails or in tight city conditions. Also, the Colorado (Z71) actually has slightly more driver legroom (what I mostly care about, since it's just me usually in the truck) than the Silverado Crew, though it definitely loses in every other interior dimension. It also has about 1" more ground clearance than Silverado's Crew non-lifted variant.
I'll admit, I'm genuinely curious as to why the Colorado weighs about the same or a bit more than the Silverado - that actually boggles my mind.
Also, roughly similar trimmed silverados and Colorados are a big difference in price - my mostly-maxed Colorado hit me for $47,100 or so. The roughlly-equivalent Silverado 1500 LT Trailboss 4WD 2.7L with similar packages is $66,800.
@@cputeq007 That's what she said.
It's going to be a hard sale to the thousands of people that had destroyed engines at 80,000 miles because of a stretched timing chain that GM didn't stand behind.
Doesn't make sense = Chevy nickel and diming their customers.
If I ever get money I was thinking the Trail Boss would be the trim for me but seeing all the features not even offered as an option has changed my mind. Hopefully the new Tacoma leapfrogs this and offers a better value.
Z71 wld be my choice too as I own a 2019 Colorado z71 with 6’ box
zr2 only '11-inch Diagonal Color Driver Info Center' .
The rest of the trim is an '8-inch diagonal multicolor driver information center'.
This is a bad policy.