Every lecture by Bart Ehrman I've seen is totally unique and addresses new subjects. He really covers a huge amount of information about how people in Biblical and early Christian times thought about the truth of god, and why. As somebody who was a believer and now isn't, it's fascinating to look back on this huge diversity that I was never taught about.
I find it so refreshing to finally hear the very things that SHOULD make one think. Scary, I have to admit. It is scary to contemplate MY possible fate for being human, but I am happy to understand what has been intentionally kept obscure from me for my entire life. Thank you. I am listening to you.
@Hassan Khurshid considering how many religions there are n most condemn you for getting it wrong you should expect to be condemned to hell becsuse youre probably wrong.
How is anyone ever relieved from responsibility? This doesnt have anything to do with religion either; as long as there are two or more humans in a society together, whether you except it or not, you are responsible for your actions,, *because the others are going to hold tou accountable*
I was surprised that he did not mention the book of Job, probably the oldest book in the oldest and the one book that specifically addresses the problem of suffering. It demolishes any idea that suffering is a punishment, or that we can ever find a reason for it. What matters is our response to it.
@@hurdygurdyguy1 I doubt that Job saw it as a test, or indeed as having any purpose whatsoever. Job's response to it did, however, prove to Satan that Job's faith was, in the end, stronger than anything he could throw at it. So, yes, his faith was tested and passed test. It just seemed odd to me that the book of Job was not mentioned by name.
@Benny I think you meant exodus 21, not 31. These laws were written for at a time when slave ownership was an accepted part of culture across the world (as it has been for much of history). If you read it closely, you will see that it is giving slaves rights that they might not have had in other societies at the time, including (in Deuteronomy) the command that any slave who ran away because of ill treatment should be granted his freedom. In the New Testament, Paul equates slave traders with murderers, a perspective that led Christians such as Wilberforce to campaign against and eventually abolish the transatlantic slave trade. The OT certainly demonstrates God's wrath against evil and violence, but also provides means by which those who listen to him can escape his wrath -a theme which ultimately finds fulfilment in the cross. The cross is also the ultimate demonstration of God's compassion in taking upon himself the penalty for sin so that we can be set free from condemnation.
The story of Job falls directly in line with the Apocalypse framework; this is a fallen world and bad things will happen to good people until it is redeemed. It just has an extra wrapping of a God/Devil narrative. It's a bit like an origin myth to explain suffering.
Part 1: I greatly admire Dr Ehrman’s work. His research is both detailed and compelling. He provides the convincing and extensive evidence required in order to have a well thought-out discussion with misinformed, predisposed believers and non-believers alike.
Prof. Bart Ehrman is the most honest biblical scholars that I've ever come across my entire life. I have six of his books, including "God's Problem", where he says, "This life is all there is." Then he adds, This should not be "a cause of despair and despondency."
+MichaelKingsfordGray The more we research the subject, the more we find reason to conclude that it's likely that jesus did not exist. There isn't much evidence to support that he did exist.
MichaelKingsfordGray I tend to agree. I like the way Aron Ra put it once. He said something along the lines of: I don't think Jesus ever existed, but even if he did exist, he still never existed. Because the stories attributed to his character are so exaggerated and so mixed up with other mythologies, that he would be rendered unrecognizable from the historical Jesus he'd have been attributed to.
***** I wasn't making an exact quote, but yes, Aron Ra very much did say something to the effect of what I wrote. Several times, in fact, in several different lectures. I Googled "Olivet Discourse" and I found no fifteen minute video. I did however find other videos on the topic and I was, of course, sorely disappointed that it does not dispute or even address the charges Aron made. These are end-of-the-world prophecies. The same silly prophecies I've heard delirious Christians chant over and over again despite the fact that these events are SO vague and SO common that they may as well have come out of a fortune cookie. Signs that the world is going to end! We're looking for: 1. *War!* Hey, out of curiosity, but what period of human history never had war? 2. *Earthquakes!* Awesome! California exists, so whenever the Earth ends, you can rest assure that some recent California quake occurred! 3. *Famine!* Exactly! When the Earth ends, it will be the only time in human history that people will be hungry and dying of starvation! 4. *Gays!* What a prediction! how did they know?! "Shake me to my core," you are so adorable.
@@brendawarren4113 "Life keeps going just for the sake of keeping itself going." That I definitely agree with. And it certainly does seem like we live in a simulation when pretty much anything you can think of or even not think of can happen. Predeterminism-for lack of a better word-in the sense of the simulation hypothesis seems to exist.
@@hewasfuzzywuzzy3583 the purpose and existence of a simulation in which linear time exists would have been created for the primary purpose of enertainment and education...and there is ZERO logical rational reason for Predeterminism to be a central component to such a creation...in fact there would be endless reasons for there NOT to be predeterminism... bc IF this fractal virtual holographic simulation was indeed created primarily for entertainment and educational purposes, there is ZERO entertainmant value in watching a football game whose final score and every play u already know BEFORE it happens...and likewise there is ZERO value created if u were to go back to 3rd grade after u have already surpasses that level of education... not to mention the energy expenditure utilized to play out a predetermined outcome...why waste the energy if it is unnecessary...we wouldn't... IF this simulation is based upon the evolution and creation of novelty and complexity for the purpose of entertainment and education, and that certainly seems to be the case, then predeterminism works directly against that premise... I would take the side of reason logic and rationality, over predeterminism...
"The biggest problem I had in my class was convincing my 19 and 20-year-old New Jersey middle/upper class white students that there is a problem." And that is why I *love* this guy.
It's really hard to get over religion... I was raised in a fundamentalist christian house, I'm now an atheist, but still hard to get over the fear of hell... I was really brainwashed as a kid..
Me too. I still get scared when I watch the Exorcist, or those types of movies. Even after I've left the theater I carry a little fear with me. Then I realize, that was a make believe movie. You'll get over it.
That's what makes it a form of abuse. I can't really relate, since I was raised secular, but I can say the following. Imagine being born in the Middle East, or Asia, or anywhere else that isn't a Christian nation. Your beliefs would be entirely different. None of it is real once you step out of the box.
How did religion brainwash you? And I'm curious to know why so many people say that religion brainwashes people. Especially the young. I myself grew up a catholic. I am now a Christian. Reason being that I oppose the false system of the Vatican and the Pope. They are pagan. They do not follow what the bible says. The Bible actually warns against the false Christ system that will be setup. If most of the catholics actually read the Bible then they would see this. Unfortunately most of them don't. They just follow whatever verses and thoughts that these false Preachers like Beni Hinn and Joel Osteen throw at them. God gave us a brain to use. And he also gave us free will. With that comes the gift of discernment. You need to question everything that is thrown at you in life. God tells us to question everything. And everything means everything. Even God himself. When a person tells u something and doesn't allow you to question them then that's when you should have doubts about their credibility. Brainwashing is not something that is only found in religion. Politicians and leaders brainwash people. For example, Pao Pots. Stallin. Lenin. Ganges Cong. Alexander the Great. Hitler. American and westernized leaders who brainwash their people into fighting wars based on lies. Education brainwashes. Tv also. The Bible is a book that teaches us how to live a moral life. It's a spiritual guide that helps a person connect with God. Your relationship with God is between u and him. Not a priest or Pope. When people kill in the name of religious beliefs and because others have differing beliefs then I got a problem. But it's not like every religious person is a murderer. God doesn't condon killing in his name. He condemns it. Jesus said that if you try to preach and spread his word to your neighbor and he doesn't want to listen then just walk away and let them be. It's not right to force your belief system on anyone. But let's not stereotype and brand every religious person as bad
Carlos Medeiros Who do you think invented Christianity and Islam and many other Fabrications of Belief. The Church did or for that Matter THE ROMAN'S DID.
withwingsaseagleeyes Christianity and Catholicism are 2 different things. Rome did not create Christianity. They created the Catholic Church. Christians were killed in Rome. They were slaughtered and fed to the lions. That's not a fairytale. That's real history. Everyone was allowed to practice their religion as long as they recognized the Emporor as the supreme God over whatever deity they chose to believe in. The Christians respectfully declined to follow this order. And that cost them their lives. Religion as we know it today did not exist in those times. People had beliefs. But it's not the same as the religious organizations today. Christianity is a belief in Jesus Christ. Not a pope or priests like the Vatican and Catholic system. The bible actually warns about the mother whore system. In case you didn't know, the vatican comes out with their own rules and transcripts. They call themselves the mother of all churches. They also say that if the teachings and verses of the bible conflict with the rules of the Vatican then it is the Vatican that has supreme rule. Now does that sound like indoctrination to you? Sure does. Rome was not successful in trying to kill off all Christians. The seed was already planted. These people had a strong belief in Jesus because his life and crucifixion is not a fairytale. Otherwise they wouldn't have put their lives on the line. No historian today, whether a believer or atheist, denies the life and crucifixion of Jesus. It was the Roman Emporor, Constantine, who created the day of Jesus' birthday to be December 25th. Nowhere in the bible does it indicate his birthday. That's because King Herod was killing all children 2 years and under when he received news from prophets that the coming savior was already birthed. That is also historical fact. Rome had nothing to do with creating Christianity. They just decided to take it over when they realized that they couldn't stop it. There's a quote in the bible that goes "The devil masquerades as an angel of light." Where's the best place for the devil to hide? Behind the vale of course. The Vatican is pagan in practice. It does not follow the Bible. It amazes me how many people don't realize this. If they only read their bible
I like the last question, and I like the last response. If we are secular minded people, we have to accept that we cannot have the ultimate answer to every question.
Great lecture. It never occurred to me before that apocalypticism is an attempt to create a theodicy. Its creators really shot themselves in the foot because they ended up solving the problem of suffering by creating an infinitely greater evil that's much harder to justify than any earthly suffering: the doctrine of eternal hell.
No eternal hell in the Bible. Only eternal death. Maybe a painful death or maybe not. But no burning in a fire forever where you can’t die. That’s myth even for the Bible.
@@BiGFLATE98 you can go check for yourself, their is no such thing as people burning in a fire forever where they can’t die. Death is death in the Bible, that’s why there is resurrection. And in the judgement only good people get eternal life, so whatever happens to “bad” people is not consciously eternal, they die (presumably), for they are not eternal, they were denied that gift. Revelation is the only book that mentions p o t e n t i a l eternal conscious torment in a fiery like place. However this is only for the Devil, the “beast”, and the “false prophet” in the book. It should also be noted that Revelation is an incredibly symbolic book, meaning, this is most likely not to be taken l i t e r a l l y. Take Jude 1:7 that says Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the penalty of “eternal” fire. Well nope, not literally as there is no fire that has been raging in the Middle East for 1000’s of years. It is mere hyperbole to emphasize the total destructive nature of the fiery punishment which was complete annihilation. Even the word “Gehenna” from which “Hell” is sometimes translated, from what we think we know about it, was a burning trash heap outside Jerusalem whose purpose was to destroy and consume not torture indefinitely
@@youngknowledgeseeker Not that it stuck, anyway, globally. Like the whole Leviticus 25:46, fiasco. It was surely known by precognition that this was going to get royally f***ed up, by later teachers and clerics... but little was done about it. Divinely, I mean. Sadly, theology is often predicated on trying to have some things both ways, as time goes on. Also, it's said all who follow the false Prophet and Beast suffer too, so that brought in more ambiguity. Maybe along with the 'deceives the world' line, also.
I'd say that early Christians went through so much worse than the average believer of nowadays. Even though we may suffer emotionally from anxieties and life's challenges, most of us don't have to worry about being hunted down, routed out by imperial squads, and then fed to the lions. So be thankful that somehow it all led to a time when you can enjoy great freedoms, help yourself improve on your own terms, and seek consolation in any way you choose.
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence comes evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" _Epicurus_
as long as 2,600 years ago (now 2018) the buddha already discovered the followin' called the 4 noble truths: 1) life is sufferin;, 2) there's a cause of sufferin', 3) the cause of sufferin' is greed, 4) sufferin' can be eliminated, by practicing the noble 8-fold paths (note: the noble 8-fold paths dont involve the concept of god at all). buddha - 2,600 years ago (now 2018). the buddha also already said the followin': whether or not god exists is irrelevant 2 your life. buddha - 2,600 years ago (now 2018).
Words of wisdom on closing. Bart's got it right. It's so obvious. Living for an imagined afterlife is for fools who will squander the one life they have for one they shall never see. Living in fear of a false god (as are they all) is sucker's lot. Do the right thing by others and yourself, and stop using your perceived guilt to pass judgement on others.
It seems to me like God ordered a lot of suffering on humanity GOD HAS KILLED MORE BABIES THAN ANY ABORTION DOCTOR IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD. GOD KILLS BABIES and here are the scriptures: Hosea 9:16,13:16, Leviticus 26:29,Numbers 31:15-17, Deuteronomy 28:57, Joshua 6:20-21,Judges 21:10-24, Isaiah 13:15-18,Psalms 137:9 Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -Hosea 9:16 *** Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.-Hosea 13:16 *** And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. -Leviticus 26:29 Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -Numbers 31:15-17 *** And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them. -Deuteronomy 28:57 *** They completely destroyed everything in it - babies, men, women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys - everything.-Joshua 6:20-21 *** This is what you shall do: every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall devote to destruction.”-Judges 21:10-24 *** Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.Isaiah 13:15-18 ***Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.-Psalms 137:9***
"A person then who has strong faith in God really don't pay too much attention in his/her suffering." That is called blind faith. And it is a trait common among people who are willfully ignorant.
Pain and suffering are not synonymous. Pain is a necessary part of life, a vital part of our immune system. Pain is what one feels when one touches a hot stove, suffering is the "ouch" that follows. It may be the regret at having touched the stove, the holding on to the memory of the pain but it is not the pain itself.
When it comes to God and suffering, my thought would go to whether or not God loves mankind and is also truly all-powerful. If God loves mankind and is all-powerful, then there should be no suffering in the world. I am going on the notion that the human species does not have to be exactly like it is today, and the environment on planet earth does not have to be exactly like it is today. If God can make a heaven where there is no suffering than God can make a planet that has no suffering. There is no need for "tests". If I had a pet dog who I loved, I would not challenge him with painful tests. I would give him the best environment I could provide.
@@3ggshe11s Good way to shut up a religious nut. Plus if they would take even the story of Adam and eve literally and logically God set them up to fail. I mean Adam and eve were created without the knowledge of death or good and evil . So Adam and eve were like children could not make an informed choice. Heck everything needed to make a choice at bare minimum Adam and eve lacked. God know if he set everything up the way he did it would end up Like this. So God is responsible for the evil. Some places in the bible flat out say it.
James ...it is truly stunning that you can actually be conned into believing such garbage. Free will?? What then is the cause of suffering of animals- are you proposing they have free will? What ‘free will’ causes the ravages of natural disasters?? You need to wake up! Religions has have caused more evil in the world than can possibly be balanced by any good.
Plss ignore my comment. When did apocalyptic literature first appear? 14:31 16:09 17:23 - reinterpret covenant by prophets like john did with mark 21:55- statistics (how people suffer today ) 23:38 28:15- 4 apocalyptic tenets 39:08
when i was a total atheist i had tons of friends, we all drank, partied together, i think what the difference is, is the damn internet, i mean there was internet but i never used it to socialize the way we do now...
RUclips's been suggesting this video for a week, and whenever I see the title I have to think, "Oh, come on, the Bible doesn't mention Bart Ehrman! And he's not _that_ bad a speaker."
I would have to agree with you on this matter. He is a well respected professor whom I rank as one of the greatest of our time. I put him up with Doctor Wallace and Geza Vermes. Regardless of his personal beliefs I think he engages well with his classes.
Well I usually dont comment on videos but this one is hard for me to let pass by. I have watched several of Barts lectures and debates but this one made me feel a tremendous amount of sympathy for Bart . I'm too had a born experience when I was a teenager and the experience was quite overwhelming. Throughout my journey of life I have changed my beliefs due to life experiences and discovering myself through meditation and study in eastern philosophy. It saddens me how often people in the west once they loss their faith in Christianity turn straight to atheism. I have practiced meditation and studied the bhagavad gita, tao te ching the dhammapada and several other systems and honestly I dont think I could ever subscribe to any "ism" however I have had experiences that has completely convinced me of a " universal consciousness ".. I believe that throughout human history mankind has tried to explain the unexplainable.. it cant be done .. You can't know it but you can be it.. The tao that can be told is not the eternal tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name.. kinda thing.
Jason McDonald ..it is you, and your brethren who I feel sorry for, not to mention all of us who don’t subscribe to Christianity or islam - for MUCH evil is done by you in your god’s names. Each religion believes his religion is the ‘true’ religion- it is just a ludicrous joke. Develop critical thinking skills and free yourself from these hate-full psychological chains.
I did not choose to exist. My creator bears sole responsibility for my actions and the actions of his other creations. There is no free will, there are only constrained choices.
These are the types of lectures that religious people should listen to, understand and follow the concepts to their logical, rational and reasonable conclusions. Religious people simply take what they have learned from childhood and don't critically examine what they have been taught or believe to be honest and/or truthful. Religious believers find it easier to believe in faith rather than examine the truth through analysis and critical thinking. Bart Ehrman does a great job here for all!!
With John the problem most scholars hold to is that there was a redactor( someone adding to the text or taking away from the text). Your argument is only addressed towards the Synoptic Gospels(Luke,Mark, Matthew).
In a lot of ways, I agree with you. If people want to believe in their religion, let them, since it gives comfort. The problem is that some religious people want to use their religion as a basis for introducing legislation that affects everyone, whether they agree or not. That's why atheists and agnostics are becoming more vocal in recent years. Also, just because something is comforting, it doesn't make it true. And if you want to base your life on facts, not mythology...
You mean like communist humanists legalising abortion and other headless atrocities born from maybe godcomplex egomania... Mmm yes. But i guess you would not have cared to see that 😒
Pain is natures way to tell you you have to avoid harmful things. Suffering happens because people are attached to their preconceptions as to what they want to happen, not what is.
So it occurred to me at about 16:30 min in after he finished speaking about Jews being the chosen people; Adam and Eve gave rise to all mankind. How are there different types of people? If you believe the Adam and Eve story to be true, don't you have to believe in evolution of some type? God favoring one type of people makes it racist, right?
Perhaps. But they were chosen to help others and bless others not to be above them. They weren’t given special treatment when it comes to their moral wrongs either and were punished sometimes rather severely. And, unless I’m mistaken, pretty much anyone could be a Jew if they wanted. So no racism...
I have one more qoute from Stanford home library on Quantum Gravity. The difficulties in reconciling quantum theory and gravity into some form of quantum gravity come from the prima facie incompatibility of general relativity, Einstein's relativistic theory of gravitation, and quantum field theory, the framework for the description of the other three forces (electromagnetism and the strong and weak nuclear interactions).
With a lot of thanks to Dr Ehrman, who opens our minds, I just thought, that we, the people who deny the existence of god, In fact, do a great favor to him. We take all responsibilities from God's shoulders for all misery around the world!
Wuuuut? What lots of people (even pastors) don't (yet) understand. God created us according to His own image and likeness. Godly. Mankind/the first Adam fell. The image of God in man got lost. That's why there is all this predicament on earth (selfishness, greed, lust, wars, sicknesses, death, etc). We are all born into that mess. For the fall of man a perfect atoning sacrifice had to be made.... that is what God did in Christ. With His own once and for all perefect sacrifice, He paid the debt for the fall of man for us, so we can be indwelled by His Spirit again and finally receive the divine life of the ages back, the first Adam let got of in the fall of man. An amazing act of grace and love by our creator. That is what you see happening in Christ's first disciples. They too healed all and walked in unselfish love. And yes.... that is still avaible today. The holy blood is in place, the Holy Spirit is here to give us understanding, power and transform us back to origin. Not to be debated about, but to be embraced and be-come. So: The Kingdom of God already came. Through Christ, in Spiritform, in those that understand. Hence the divine healing miracles we experience. God manifested in Christ to give us back the divine life mankind lost in the fall of Adam. Christ, the exact image of the invisible God. The image we were created after in Gen 1. The image we lost in the fall of man. The image that can be freely restored by Christ's blood and Holy Spirit working IN us. What a plan. What a solution. What a love. What a God. Jesus is amazing. It is the ultimate conclusion of the word and plan of God. God came full circle. He Himself stooped down from glory to restore us back to original created value: Christlikeness. Walking in divine healing power and unselfish love. Jesus, born of the Spirit of God, filled with the spirit of God. The "Son" of God, the incarnated word, God in the flesh. For three years He healed all, raised the dead, casted out demons, controlled nature, spoke pure divine truth. He said: "Follow Me. If you see Me, you see the Father. The Father and I are one. The glory I have IN My Father, I give to you. It pleases the Father to give you His Kingdom/Holy Spirit/divine nature. I will send Holy Spirit, the same as Me, He will be IN you, guide you into truth and give you explosive power. The same miracles i do, you will do too, because you will understand that the Father is IN Me and I am IN you. Freely I give you My Kingdom/Holy Spirit/divine nature, heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons, freely I give, freely share" Etc, etc, etc. I have experienced thousands of beautifull healing miracles through the power of Holy Spirit IN me already. Broken bones, cancers, covid, all kinds of infirmities healed in seconds. Demons manifesting and casted out by a simple "get out, in Jesus name". Jesus. De name above all names. In Him all power and wisdom is sourced and.... He calls us one with Him. God in man and man in God again. C'mon Jesus!! So.... again: God stooped down IN Christ to restore us back to Gen 1:27 were He said: "Let us make man according to our image and likeness and let them have authority.....": walk as Christ. Christ, the exact image of the invisible God. The image we were created after and being restored to by His atoning blood for the fall of man and indwelling Holy Spirit. You are free to receive this original divine life of the ages by Holy Spirit of Christ/God. Ask Him to guide you into truth. Read the Gospel of John and fall in love with your creator. You are not made for the fall of man and its effects, but for the image/glory of God and to walk like Christ. Holy Spirit is the guide and transforming power that will get you there. Amazing grace. A big leap in faith can be made when we start realizing we are already IN Christ, IN the last Adam. Free from the fall! Loved! Growing into awareness of our new (yet old) godly identity. Changing by Holy Spirit. The most fullfilled life ever. Paul healed all on Malta. He understood and wrote: "As in the first Adam ALL died (lost the divine nature), so also ALL were made alive IN Christ to walk in Zoë (= divine life) again". "IN Christ (the last Adam) we are co-cruisified (dead to the fall and its effects), co-raised (justified/made righteousness, holy, blameless, above reproach), co-seated (one with Him)" "The fullness of deity dwells in Christ and YOU HAVE BEEN MADE COMPLETE IN HIM, who is the head of every principality and power". So.... thank you Jesus! Thank you for redeeming me from the fall of man. Thank you for your Holy Spirit that makes this new (yet old) divine life come alive in me. You are amazing! In the shadow of Peter the sick healed... He understood too and wrote: "By Gods power (Holy Spirit) and knowing Christ, we have become partakers of the divine nature and have escaped the fall of man". The divine life of the ages has been returned to us by Jesus once and for all perfect atoning sacrifice for the debt of the fall of man and His indwelling Holy Spirit in us. Jesus/God is amazing!!! Ask Him to give you revelation and change you to the way it was before the fall of man: Christlikeness. He will do so. For it is written: "the Spirit brings forth after His own kind". "I have come to give you Zoë (divine life) in abundance...."
I just watched the whole lecture, and he does indeed explain various ideas about suffering that are contained in the bible. Here's why there's suffering in the world: micro-organisms that cause disease, weather systems that flare up and kill on occasion, wars that kill non-combatants as well as combatants, animals that kill other animals to eat, etc. I fail to see how a child being born with a debilitating deformity or disease or a lifetime of pain makes anyone better. It just sucks.
Twelve lines? I can answer the question in four words: God LOVES human suffering. He likes it so much, in fact, that he couldn't get enough of it in this world. So he created a place where he could torture people forever. Of course the authors of the Bible didn't want to admit that. Factor that in and it all makes perfect sense. And that's the ONLY way the Bible makes any sense. It's only when you try to claim that god loves us that the explanation required becomes much longer and never really satisfies. Fortunately the god of the Bible is only a myth.
+The National Razor It certainly seems as you describe. There's an easier answer tho. God doesn't exist, and everything that happens in life is exactly as we expect, considering there's no god interfering in our lives. Things, good and bad, happen for natural reasons.
Well done Bart. Suffering happens to all organisms on this planet. Humans are just another organism, (possibly the worst) but no more important than an antelope, a mouse or a bee.
@glassmancanada That's the kind of LOVE that a man feels for his wife when he beats her to keep her in line, and she in turn feels more affection for him the more he kicks her butt. It's a sickness, not love...
Yep. You gotta question the thing when a carrot is dangling as incentive. We shouldn't need incentive to do good (or rather, NOT to do bad). "Now, little Timmy, if you're GOOD, you can have a cookie." That's simply the wrong message. "Now, little Christian, if you're GOOD, why, you DON'T get a cookie unless you BELIEVE in my millienia-long fairy tale and invite Jeebus into your pancreas."
Just a question: How many people are willing to die for a lie???? CUZ ALL THE DISCIPLES OF CHRIST BUT ONE WERE MARTYRED FOR PREACHING THE " GOOD NEWS"! NO ONE WILLING DIES FOR A LIE! READ/ WATCH " THE CASE FOR CHRIST. "
We also need help knowing what is good and what is bad. Except we know it in our hearts already. But we all fail to do what is right and good. Which is why we need a SAVIOR.....
Purely adore Dr.Ehrman. Still I'm curious, wasn't it the "human's" choice to eat the apples and go to this world instead of staying in the garden of Eden? Doesn't it explain to Christians the suffering they are going through? And then the reason is always in ancestors and us, for the future generations. But anyway, I'm feeling comfortable with karma and Buddhist explanation of suffering.
What seems to get overlooked is that in the story there were two trees/fruits that were forbidden, the Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil and The Tree of Life (Immortality). God became angry when he finds out A&E have the "Knowledge" and have became "like Us" and the alarmed and say "We gotta kick these two out of the Garden before they eat of The Tree of Life and live forever!" So, they're kicked out not for eating of the TotKoG&E but kicked out before they can eat of TToL... And that begs the question, before the "Fall" was it God's plan they would eventually die ... and was Eve going to have a pleasant time in childbirth? And they wouldn't have to work the land etc? ....
@@hurdygurdyguy1 Who put the trees in the garden? Tell an innocent child not to do something and you will arouse their curiosity about an idea they hadn't even thought of.
We are paying for the sinsof Adam and eve. That's unfair. We are only responsible for. Our ownisyakes and sins we cannot place the burden on our offspring asis taught of Adam and eve.
"Either you're for or against my exact form of belief" is what you're saying. That is not the definition of having an open mind. And you're not answering my questions, or addressing the point that a believer whose faith is strong has no need to criticize a historian. So the argument is officially over.
Al-Akib Eliminate God because it’s an assumption, and replace it with what? Non matter producing matter and geochemistry producing biochemistry? I’m not sure I would consider that a simplification.
IF GOD is not exit, I ASK you a question. DO YOU EVER see a rock can be a perfect a human being, in your life? it is too perfect, so ofcourse there is a creator
The question of "Theodicy" is not: "How can God be just?". [8:44 and following] It is "How can God be justified [by man]?". Regarding to Leibniz, who first raised this question with this very description. And that is a whole different question.
In general, physical quantities are described by a quantum state which gives a probability distribution over many different values, and increased specificity (narrowing of the distribution) of one property (e.g., position, electric field) gives rise to decreased specificity of its canonically conjugate property (e.g., momentum, magnetic field). This is an expression of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. In the context of quantum gravity the fluctuating geometry is known as “spacetime foam”.
Okay, so I'm only in Numbers right now. (frankly I'm finding it a pretty tedious and ridiculous book so far. There's more truth about the human condition in Shakespeare.) I can comprehend evil - yes, there are people out there who do lots of evil stuff. I don't believe the devil makes them do it, that's an excuse and relieves them of the accountability for their actions. And good people do evil stuff too, and for them to do it gleefully and self-righteously...that takes religion.
Don't get me started on THAT! But I have to say, we've pretty much highjacked this page with our discussion. I'm glad we kept it civil, but we've covered a couple of pages now with just our little back and forth. It's been fun - but I have to do some work now!
Imagine a world in which there was no pain, no suffering, no serious consequence of a foolish decision. This is the world the atheist speaks of when he rails against God, the creator of all things, whom he hates for his poor designs. "What good comes of your pain and suffering? What purpose do they serve?” I hear them cry. A mother to her child in a perfect world that knows no pain or suffering: “Don’t worry about coming home this evening. I'll see you sometime tomorrow. What’s that you ask about bad men? Don’t worry about bad men. There are no bad men. No evil can come your way. You'll be okay. See you tomorrow. What’s that you say? What about dinner? Don’t worry about dinner. It’s not necessary because there’s no such thing as starvation or malnutrition. Your growth will not be affected at all. So stay out as long as you like. Have a good time. I’ll see you when you get back, If you decide to come back at all. The choice is yours I suppose. Anyway, it’s been nice knowing you kid.” Love is the EXERCISING of love - doing the deeds of love - nurturing, feeding, clothing, caring, helping, saving, repairing, nursing, taking up the burden, going in another’s place. Love can ONLY be revealed by its action, when it is needed. Simple statements declaring love mean nothing if there is no harm, no pain, no suffering. There’s just no need for it. In fact, it might even get in the way. But I don't want to love exclusively by exercising my love with the deeds of love in sickness and disaster. I will if I must but I certainly don’t want to have to be doing that every day. I hope that sickness and disaster can be kept to a minimum in my life. I want to love in good times too, with every passing moment possible. And I can by being there and caring - by protecting and defending because danger is all around and if I turn my back for an instant all might be lost. But I can only care against the harm - the starvation, the exposure, the sickness, the deterioration - all the harm that might be done if there’s neglect because there is no love. So I care because I must so that harm is not done or it is undone. I love because I must so that harm is not done or it is undone. Harm, pain, suffering - these are the only chances love has. I can rejoice in the good times because it is a beautiful world, and it’s full of love to protect me on my way.
Look from the beginning I was just stating a fact that it is possible to believe in something that one cannot see. I understand your stance on this matter.
Suffering purifies. That's why God allows or sends suffering. Suffering reminds those in the state of mortal sin that they need to convert. Suffering makes people who are in the state of grace like the suffering Christ, Who, though innocent of any sin, suffered patiently.
George Penton How does this apply to children who die of horrific neglect and abuse? Or who are scarred for life by sexual abuse? How does your smug hypothesis apply to them?
What God accomplished against suffering: What lots of people (even pastors) don't (yet) understand. God created us according to His own image and likeness. Godly. Mankind/the first Adam fell. The image of God in man got lost. That's why there is all this predicament on earth (selfishness, greed, lust, wars, sicknesses, death, etc). We are all born into that mess. For the fall of man a perfect atoning sacrifice had to be made.... that is what God did in Christ. With His own once and for all perefect sacrifice, He paid the debt for the fall of man for us, so we can be indwelled by His Spirit again and finally receive the divine life of the ages back, the first Adam let got of in the fall of man. An amazing act of grace and love by our creator. That is what you see happening in Christ's first disciples. They too healed all and walked in unselfish love. And yes.... that is still avaible today. The holy blood is in place, the Holy Spirit is here to give us understanding, power and transform us back to origin. Not to be debated about, but to be embraced and be-come. So: The Kingdom of God already came. Through Christ, in Spiritform, in those that understand. Hence the divine healing miracles we experience. God manifested in Christ to give us back the divine life mankind lost in the fall of Adam. Christ, the exact image of the invisible God. The image we were created after in Gen 1. The image we lost in the fall of man. The image that can be freely restored by Christ's blood and Holy Spirit working IN us. What a plan. What a solution. What a love. What a God. Jesus is amazing. It is the ultimate conclusion of the word and plan of God. God came full circle. He Himself stooped down from glory to restore us back to original created value: Christlikeness. Walking in divine healing power and unselfish love. Jesus, born of the Spirit of God, filled with the spirit of God. The "Son" of God, the incarnated word, God in the flesh. For three years He healed all, raised the dead, casted out demons, controlled nature, spoke pure divine truth. He said: "Follow Me. If you see Me, you see the Father. The Father and I are one. The glory I have IN My Father, I give to you. It pleases the Father to give you His Kingdom/Holy Spirit/divine nature. I will send Holy Spirit, the same as Me, He will be IN you, guide you into truth and give you explosive power. The same miracles i do, you will do too, because you will understand that the Father is IN Me and I am IN you. Freely I give you My Kingdom/Holy Spirit/divine nature, heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons, freely I give, freely share" Etc, etc, etc. I have experienced thousands of beautifull healing miracles through the power of Holy Spirit IN me already. Broken bones, cancers, covid, all kinds of infirmities healed in seconds. Demons manifesting and casted out by a simple "get out, in Jesus name". Jesus. De name above all names. In Him all power and wisdom is sourced and.... He calls us one with Him. God in man and man in God again. C'mon Jesus!! So.... again: God stooped down IN Christ to restore us back to Gen 1:27 were He said: "Let us make man according to our image and likeness and let them have authority.....": walk as Christ. Christ, the exact image of the invisible God. The image we were created after and being restored to by His atoning blood for the fall of man and indwelling Holy Spirit. You are free to receive this original divine life of the ages by Holy Spirit of Christ/God. Ask Him to guide you into truth. Read the Gospel of John and fall in love with your creator. You are not made for the fall of man and its effects, but for the image/glory of God and to walk like Christ. Holy Spirit is the guide and transforming power that will get you there. Amazing grace. A big leap in faith can be made when we start realizing we are already IN Christ, IN the last Adam. Free from the fall! Loved! Growing into awareness of our new (yet old) godly identity. Changing by Holy Spirit. The most fullfilled life ever. Paul healed all on Malta. He understood and wrote: "As in the first Adam ALL died (lost the divine nature), so also ALL were made alive IN Christ to walk in Zoë (= divine life) again". "IN Christ (the last Adam) we are co-cruisified (dead to the fall and its effects), co-raised (justified/made righteousness, holy, blameless, above reproach), co-seated (one with Him)" "The fullness of deity dwells in Christ and YOU HAVE BEEN MADE COMPLETE IN HIM, who is the head of every principality and power". So.... thank you Jesus! Thank you for redeeming me from the fall of man. Thank you for your Holy Spirit that makes this new (yet old) divine life come alive in me. You are amazing! In the shadow of Peter the sick healed... He understood too and wrote: "By Gods power (Holy Spirit) and knowing Christ, we have become partakers of the divine nature and have escaped the fall of man". The divine life of the ages has been returned to us by Jesus once and for all perfect atoning sacrifice for the debt of the fall of man and His indwelling Holy Spirit in us. Jesus/God is amazing!!! Ask Him to give you revelation and change you to the way it was before the fall of man: Christlikeness. He will do so. For it is written: "the Spirit brings forth after His own kind". "I have come to give you Zoë (divine life) in abundance...."
my love to you Bart, I'm an absolute 100% believer in God, (mathematically life's imposible without an intelligent agent..prove me wronrg mathematically, not emotionally, or quoting just authority). I understand the intellectual/emotional/personal/spiritual/ pain you've suffered...believe me, I do...
I'm not the brightis buld in the house but i wish i knew the answers but o don't and can only go by what these people know by what they studied, i also am hurt spiritually to think there is know God or anything after we pass and i wish there is one, but i am still looking for the answers but im not getting any
Well to start. How did you "mathematically" calculate the probability of an intelligent designer? And how did you come to the conclusion that it was your god?
it seems the human part in all of us comes out ~~~ everyone looks at things from their point of view in relation to what they know at that moment in time
Our great scholar here,is pretty good my point of view, but as a fact checker, I would like to state that he mentioned ‘a parable of the fig tree’ in the book of Matthew text-however, he tells us that it is in Matthew 25 not Matthew 24 where it is actually located FYI if you care to read.
TomFynn ...with the Trump chaos and evil, gun culture and the religious insanity in the US- not to mention the combination of the three! We no longer have a desire to tour America from Canada, thank you very much. It may have been a great country once but it is seriously losing ground.
Yep, His intense studies of the Bible (meaning, the actual manuscripts and all the info surrounding their creation and canonization) forced him to conclude the only thing one can - it's false. I think he doesn't claim to be an atheist but just agnostic. The Bible for answers... BWAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!
He has said in many a podcast that he is an agnostic atheist. He doesn't know for certainly if there's a god but still doesn't believe in the other gods of the religions of the earth.
Everyone has an eternal soul that lives in eternal bliss. Forever ... Then souls get too much bliss. So they come to earth to get UN blissed. For a short life. And go back to eternal bliss. Again. Being thankful they are in bliss. And they don't have to suffer anymore as a human
I wonder why will there be a resurrection of judgement if Jesus died for our sins, that doesn't add up right in my thoughts. Also the bible says that, the wages of sin is death, so if the sin is paid already by one dying, why would they be judged after being resurrected. That is not a question actually, it is a thought.
It might been only christians. Non-christians might be the ones who will be judged. In Bible jesus says no one can came to father except through me. So it makes sense that ones who reject jesus their sin wont be paid
@@mehmetsimsek4794 Catholics (who are the original and only true Christians) don't believe that one can come to god through Jesus. Jesus is merely the example for the kinds of deeds that one has to do to come to the father. He is not a keyhole. The latter idea is Protestant bullshit.
Any god who would inflict mass punishment in order to garner adoration can only be said to be evil or insecure. Either way, he isn't worth believing in.
LibertarianOnWheels What are you basing your comment on? What evidence do you have that backs up what you are saying about God ? Can you tell me what you have read and studied from what is recorded in scripture? Or, what other source you are coming to your comment, thanks.
My comment is based on a rational application of logic to the supposed powers/characteristics of your god. If he is said to be all-powerful, how or why does he not stop evil, or natural disasters from slaughtering innocents? If he is all-loving, why create a penalty for sin? Why not just forgive? If he is said to be all-merciful, why create a hell? And so on.
I tuned in to see and hear what Ehrman had to say, but I did not expect it to start with an introduction by Professor Susanna Elm. You know what she is working on at the moment? A book on the role of slavery and tattoos in the formation of Christianity. Wish I had her as an instructor when I was in college.
wow I can't believe at this time of the video, he was only an atheist for 10 years despite being a theologian. I don't get it. how can a theologian that studies thousand of manuscripts and find many discrepancies and forgeries, still believe in the Christian God?
it is not a programmed nor brainwashed. each of us has the right to choose our life in this earth and religion. it's my faith that brings me to islam. bible teaches me that God is one and so the islam.
'stuff happens' ? This is the answer to why there are earthquakes and tsunamis? Bart there are other sciences which address these things and there is an understanding of what's going on. We know what causes earthquakes and tsunamis there is no mystery. Why are people killed in such events? There are reasons why people might live in particular areas and when natural events occur they do so for reasons which are largely understood and since people living in the area are part of the situation they can be effected. It's a shame Bart is so unsympathetic to Harrison and the others' position I don't think he characterized it fairly. They do know the madness that is called religion these are not ignorant people they just see it from a different point of view and they're all doing very important work.
I agree with everything you said. Bart is a great person and always tries to be nice even to crazies. He is right that we should be knowledgeable about religions before attacking them but as your comment implied, there is no "single way of dealing with problems caused be religion". Different people have different approaches and indeed, his description of Harris was, at least, unfair. Although again, he is really good and does a great job.
People pray for whatever is causing them to suffer to be healed, and when they catch some luck, they say, "Hallelujah, a miracle!" When things don't go their way, they say, "Well, God works in mysterious ways. This was a part of his plan." But if there is a grand, unalterable plan (which for some unfathomable reason includes suffering), why pray? It is always interesting to hear that people pray about the pettiest of everyday issues--apparently it is part of the plan to help some people give good presentations at work, while letting others die of painful diseases.
I love of all Ehrman's books, lectures and his views are well-researched, reasonable and agree with mainstream scholarship. He is brilliant and I am a fan. But his comments about the 'new' atheists is a little off-base. Sam Harris for instance has specifically said on many occasions that religion is not the cause of all evil in the world. Dawkins and Hitchens grew up with religion and are vastly more knowledgeable about the bible than most people apart from biblical scholars perhaps. Hitchens subtitle to his book religion poison's everything is admittedly a bold statement that he ultimately defends, more so in the sense that the delusion that affirms religion is part of the delusion that allows theocracy, dictatorship, oppression etc. I have heard Ehrman make statements that are almost word-for-word identical to some made by the four horseman of the counter apocalypse on numerous occasions.
@@joeboxter3635 lol..even a stone,water, air, light, a dog, everthing can be received and be seen as A God gift..even watching a stupid pig can be seen as a God gift..... a human ..no matter if he/she an atheis or theis or what ever..can be seen as a God gift too.. .... rejoicing is good..for your body and soul health .. ... hehe.. I believe in Jesus Christ ... . the God,the truth,the way,the life..😄 Shaloom..
32:19 So only people who've been mummified will still be intact enough to raise from the dead? What about all the humans who've completely decomposed or been cremated?
It seems that random and intense suffering is a required ingredient for creating creatures that have true agency. Otherwise would they not be compelled to make the choices that always result in comfort?
Every lecture by Bart Ehrman I've seen is totally unique and addresses new subjects. He really covers a huge amount of information about how people in Biblical and early Christian times thought about the truth of god, and why. As somebody who was a believer and now isn't, it's fascinating to look back on this huge diversity that I was never taught about.
ruclips.net/video/vk68Dv-Regk/видео.html
He is the greatest professor of Bullshit.
@@maronanabalat5177 this Dr.J lang never read the holy bible.His first encounter was with islam.
There is no Allah but God and Jesus is his Name.
He does rely on the same old jokes, if you watch him a lot you'll see the same ones cropping up
@Lee Sampson abdool abdool..Allah is the moon god and Kudha is different from allah.Jesus is Kudha or God.
I find it so refreshing to finally hear the very things that SHOULD make one think. Scary, I have to admit. It is scary to contemplate MY possible fate for being human, but I am happy to understand what has been intentionally kept obscure from me for my entire life. Thank you. I am listening to you.
@Hassan Khurshid considering how many religions there are n most condemn you for getting it wrong you should expect to be condemned to hell becsuse youre probably wrong.
How is anyone ever relieved from responsibility? This doesnt have anything to do with religion either; as long as there are two or more humans in a society together, whether you except it or not, you are responsible for your actions,, *because the others are going to hold tou accountable*
I was surprised that he did not mention the book of Job, probably the oldest book in the oldest and the one book that specifically addresses the problem of suffering. It demolishes any idea that suffering is a punishment, or that we can ever find a reason for it. What matters is our response to it.
He does so many debatts on the subject and those are longer then this video and there he usually brings up the book of Job aswell.
7:15 ... he mentions suffering as a "test of faith" which is what Job boils down to...
@@hurdygurdyguy1 I doubt that Job saw it as a test, or indeed as having any purpose whatsoever. Job's response to it did, however, prove to Satan that Job's faith was, in the end, stronger than anything he could throw at it. So, yes, his faith was tested and passed test. It just seemed odd to me that the book of Job was not mentioned by name.
@Benny I think you meant exodus 21, not 31. These laws were written for at a time when slave ownership was an accepted part of culture across the world (as it has been for much of history). If you read it closely, you will see that it is giving slaves rights that they might not have had in other societies at the time, including (in Deuteronomy) the command that any slave who ran away because of ill treatment should be granted his freedom. In the New Testament, Paul equates slave traders with murderers, a perspective that led Christians such as Wilberforce to campaign against and eventually abolish the transatlantic slave trade. The OT certainly demonstrates God's wrath against evil and violence, but also provides means by which those who listen to him can escape his wrath -a theme which ultimately finds fulfilment in the cross. The cross is also the ultimate demonstration of God's compassion in taking upon himself the penalty for sin so that we can be set free from condemnation.
The story of Job falls directly in line with the Apocalypse framework; this is a fallen world and bad things will happen to good people until it is redeemed.
It just has an extra wrapping of a God/Devil narrative. It's a bit like an origin myth to explain suffering.
Part 1:
I greatly admire Dr Ehrman’s work. His research is both detailed and compelling. He provides the convincing and extensive evidence required in order to have a well thought-out discussion with misinformed, predisposed believers and non-believers alike.
Prof. Bart Ehrman is the most honest biblical scholars that I've ever come across my entire life. I have six of his books, including "God's Problem", where he says, "This life is all there is." Then he adds, This should not be "a cause of despair and despondency."
_"If Jesus said the world is going to end within our lifetime, I think there needs to be a statute of limitations on that."_
Gotta remember that one.
MichaelKingsfordGray I think you're probably right.
classic line lol.
+MichaelKingsfordGray
The more we research the subject, the more we find reason to conclude that it's likely that jesus did not exist. There isn't much evidence to support that he did exist.
MichaelKingsfordGray I tend to agree. I like the way Aron Ra put it once. He said something along the lines of:
I don't think Jesus ever existed, but even if he did exist, he still never existed. Because the stories attributed to his character are so exaggerated and so mixed up with other mythologies, that he would be rendered unrecognizable from the historical Jesus he'd have been attributed to.
***** I wasn't making an exact quote, but yes, Aron Ra very much did say something to the effect of what I wrote. Several times, in fact, in several different lectures.
I Googled "Olivet Discourse" and I found no fifteen minute video. I did however find other videos on the topic and I was, of course, sorely disappointed that it does not dispute or even address the charges Aron made. These are end-of-the-world prophecies. The same silly prophecies I've heard delirious Christians chant over and over again despite the fact that these events are SO vague and SO common that they may as well have come out of a fortune cookie.
Signs that the world is going to end! We're looking for:
1. *War!* Hey, out of curiosity, but what period of human history never had war?
2. *Earthquakes!* Awesome! California exists, so whenever the Earth ends, you can rest assure that some recent California quake occurred!
3. *Famine!* Exactly! When the Earth ends, it will be the only time in human history that people will be hungry and dying of starvation!
4. *Gays!* What a prediction! how did they know?!
"Shake me to my core," you are so adorable.
All this stuff is so convoluted, yet so fascinating and satisfying to uncover.
Yes, well put. There's hope for you.
Religious theology is convoluted and without logic
Schopenhauer on pessimism and on suffering in the world is a great example/reference to read.
@@brendawarren4113 "Life keeps going just for the sake of keeping itself going." That I definitely agree with. And it certainly does seem like we live in a simulation when pretty much anything you can think of or even not think of can happen. Predeterminism-for lack of a better word-in the sense of the simulation hypothesis seems to exist.
@@hewasfuzzywuzzy3583 the purpose and existence of a simulation in which linear time exists would have been created for the primary purpose of enertainment and education...and there is ZERO logical rational reason for Predeterminism to be a central component to such a creation...in fact there would be endless reasons for there NOT to be predeterminism...
bc IF this fractal virtual holographic simulation was indeed created primarily for entertainment and educational purposes, there is ZERO entertainmant value in watching a football game whose final score and every play u already know BEFORE it happens...and likewise there is ZERO value created if u were to go back to 3rd grade after u have already surpasses that level of education...
not to mention the energy expenditure utilized to play out a predetermined outcome...why waste the energy if it is unnecessary...we wouldn't...
IF this simulation is based upon the evolution and creation of novelty and complexity for the purpose of entertainment and education, and that certainly seems to be the case, then predeterminism works directly against that premise...
I would take the side of reason logic and rationality, over predeterminism...
"The biggest problem I had in my class was convincing my 19 and 20-year-old New Jersey middle/upper class white students that there is a problem." And that is why I *love* this guy.
Fernie Canto exactly!!
Clinton Morgan don't you see how hateful you are?
Fernie Canto Those damned successful white people.
Fernie, does one have to be non-white in order to grasp the problem of pain and suffering?
Paul Sacco You seem to be suffering.
It's really hard to get over religion... I was raised in a fundamentalist christian house, I'm now an atheist, but still hard to get over the fear of hell... I was really brainwashed as a kid..
Me too. I still get scared when I watch the Exorcist, or those types of movies. Even after I've left the theater I carry a little fear with me. Then I realize, that was a make believe movie. You'll get over it.
That's what makes it a form of abuse. I can't really relate, since I was raised secular, but I can say the following. Imagine being born in the Middle East, or Asia, or anywhere else that isn't a Christian nation. Your beliefs would be entirely different. None of it is real once you step out of the box.
How did religion brainwash you? And I'm curious to know why so many people say that religion brainwashes people. Especially the young. I myself grew up a catholic. I am now a Christian. Reason being that I oppose the false system of the Vatican and the Pope. They are pagan. They do not follow what the bible says. The Bible actually warns against the false Christ system that will be setup. If most of the catholics actually read the Bible then they would see this. Unfortunately most of them don't. They just follow whatever verses and thoughts that these false Preachers like Beni Hinn and Joel Osteen throw at them. God gave us a brain to use. And he also gave us free will. With that comes the gift of discernment. You need to question everything that is thrown at you in life. God tells us to question everything. And everything means everything. Even God himself. When a person tells u something and doesn't allow you to question them then that's when you should have doubts about their credibility.
Brainwashing is not something that is only found in religion. Politicians and leaders brainwash people. For example, Pao Pots. Stallin. Lenin. Ganges Cong. Alexander the Great. Hitler. American and westernized leaders who brainwash their people into fighting wars based on lies. Education brainwashes. Tv also.
The Bible is a book that teaches us how to live a moral life. It's a spiritual guide that helps a person connect with God. Your relationship with God is between u and him. Not a priest or Pope. When people kill in the name of religious beliefs and because others have differing beliefs then I got a problem. But it's not like every religious person is a murderer. God doesn't condon killing in his name. He condemns it. Jesus said that if you try to preach and spread his word to your neighbor and he doesn't want to listen then just walk away and let them be. It's not right to force your belief system on anyone. But let's not stereotype and brand every religious person as bad
Carlos Medeiros Who do you think invented Christianity and Islam and many other Fabrications of Belief. The Church did or for that Matter THE ROMAN'S DID.
withwingsaseagleeyes Christianity and Catholicism are 2 different things. Rome did not create Christianity. They created the Catholic Church. Christians were killed in Rome. They were slaughtered and fed to the lions. That's not a fairytale. That's real history. Everyone was allowed to practice their religion as long as they recognized the Emporor as the supreme God over whatever deity they chose to believe in. The Christians respectfully declined to follow this order. And that cost them their lives. Religion as we know it today did not exist in those times. People had beliefs. But it's not the same as the religious organizations today.
Christianity is a belief in Jesus Christ. Not a pope or priests like the Vatican and Catholic system. The bible actually warns about the mother whore system. In case you didn't know, the vatican comes out with their own rules and transcripts. They call themselves the mother of all churches. They also say that if the teachings and verses of the bible conflict with the rules of the Vatican then it is the Vatican that has supreme rule. Now does that sound like indoctrination to you? Sure does. Rome was not successful in trying to kill off all Christians. The seed was already planted. These people had a strong belief in Jesus because his life and crucifixion is not a fairytale. Otherwise they wouldn't have put their lives on the line. No historian today, whether a believer or atheist, denies the life and crucifixion of Jesus. It was the Roman Emporor, Constantine, who created the day of Jesus' birthday to be December 25th. Nowhere in the bible does it indicate his birthday. That's because King Herod was killing all children 2 years and under when he received news from prophets that the coming savior was already birthed. That is also historical fact. Rome had nothing to do with creating Christianity. They just decided to take it over when they realized that they couldn't stop it. There's a quote in the bible that goes "The devil masquerades as an angel of light." Where's the best place for the devil to hide? Behind the vale of course. The Vatican is pagan in practice. It does not follow the Bible. It amazes me how many people don't realize this. If they only read their bible
This is great. I've always wondered how the Bible explains suffering with Bart Ehrman.
A comical sign in my workplace: "the floggings will continue until morale improves". Rooted in the book of Amos.
Hits a little bit too close to home. XD
I like the last question, and I like the last response. If we are secular minded people, we have to accept that we cannot have the ultimate answer to every question.
Great lecture. It never occurred to me before that apocalypticism is an attempt to create a theodicy. Its creators really shot themselves in the foot because they ended up solving the problem of suffering by creating an infinitely greater evil that's much harder to justify than any earthly suffering: the doctrine of eternal hell.
No eternal hell in the Bible. Only eternal death. Maybe a painful death or maybe not. But no burning in a fire forever where you can’t die. That’s myth even for the Bible.
@@youngknowledgeseeker no it’s not myth even for the Bible… the New Testament references to an eternal hell of suffering multiple times now jus death
Not just death *
@@BiGFLATE98 you can go check for yourself, their is no such thing as people burning in a fire forever where they can’t die. Death is death in the Bible, that’s why there is resurrection.
And in the judgement only good people get eternal life, so whatever happens to “bad” people is not consciously eternal, they die (presumably), for they are not eternal, they were denied that gift. Revelation is the only book that mentions p o t e n t i a l eternal conscious torment in a fiery like place. However this is only for the Devil, the “beast”, and the “false prophet” in the book. It should also be noted that Revelation is an incredibly symbolic book, meaning, this is most likely not to be taken l i t e r a l l y. Take Jude 1:7 that says Sodom and Gomorrah suffered the penalty of “eternal” fire. Well nope, not literally as there is no fire that has been raging in the Middle East for 1000’s of years. It is mere hyperbole to emphasize the total destructive nature of the fiery punishment which was complete annihilation.
Even the word “Gehenna” from which “Hell” is sometimes translated, from what we think we know about it, was a burning trash heap outside Jerusalem whose purpose was to destroy and consume not torture indefinitely
@@youngknowledgeseeker Not that it stuck, anyway, globally.
Like the whole Leviticus 25:46, fiasco. It was surely known by precognition that this was going to get royally f***ed up, by later teachers and clerics... but little was done about it.
Divinely, I mean.
Sadly, theology is often predicated on trying to have some things both ways, as time goes on.
Also, it's said all who follow the false Prophet and Beast suffer too, so that brought in more ambiguity.
Maybe along with the 'deceives the world' line, also.
I'd say that early Christians went through so much worse than the average believer of nowadays. Even though we may suffer emotionally from anxieties and life's challenges, most of us don't have to worry about being hunted down, routed out by imperial squads, and then fed to the lions. So be thankful that somehow it all led to a time when you can enjoy great freedoms, help yourself improve on your own terms, and seek consolation in any way you choose.
Thank you, professor Bart Ehrman!
“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence comes evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
_Epicurus_
as long as 2,600 years ago (now 2018) the buddha already discovered the followin' called the 4 noble truths:
1) life is sufferin;,
2) there's a cause of sufferin',
3) the cause of sufferin' is greed,
4) sufferin' can be eliminated, by practicing the noble 8-fold paths (note: the noble
8-fold paths dont involve the concept of god at all).
buddha - 2,600 years ago (now 2018).
the buddha also already said the followin':
whether or not god exists is irrelevant 2 your life.
buddha - 2,600 years ago (now 2018).
Thanks Riya. :0)
@@soriya011 I did not realize the buddha dropped his Gs like a southerner.
Thank you for uploading this video. I feel enriched listening to Bart Ehrman and the perceptive questions from the audience.
Thank you very interesting
Words of wisdom on closing. Bart's got it right. It's so obvious. Living for an imagined afterlife is for fools who will squander the one life they have for one they shall never see. Living in fear of a false god (as are they all) is sucker's lot. Do the right thing by others and yourself, and stop using your perceived guilt to pass judgement on others.
It seems to me like God ordered a lot of suffering on humanity
GOD HAS KILLED MORE BABIES THAN ANY ABORTION DOCTOR IN THE HISTORY OF THE WORLD. GOD KILLS BABIES and here are the scriptures: Hosea 9:16,13:16, Leviticus 26:29,Numbers 31:15-17, Deuteronomy 28:57, Joshua 6:20-21,Judges 21:10-24, Isaiah 13:15-18,Psalms 137:9
Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb. -Hosea 9:16
*** Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.-Hosea 13:16 *** And ye shall eat the flesh of your sons, and the flesh of your daughters shall ye eat. -Leviticus 26:29
Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -Numbers 31:15-17
*** And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them. -Deuteronomy 28:57
*** They completely destroyed everything in it - babies, men, women, young and old, cattle, sheep, donkeys - everything.-Joshua 6:20-21
*** This is what you shall do: every male and every woman that has lain with a male you shall devote to destruction.”-Judges 21:10-24
*** Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children.Isaiah 13:15-18
***Happy is the one who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks.-Psalms 137:9***
thanks for the post
Holysh*t What the F***!
..
Wow
Maribel Franco Lol nice how you took those hella out of context. Got anymore slacker?
That intro music is on point.
"A person then who has strong faith in God really don't pay too much attention in his/her suffering."
That is called blind faith. And it is a trait common among people who are willfully ignorant.
Pain and suffering are not synonymous.
Pain is a necessary part of life, a vital part of our immune system. Pain is what one feels when one touches a hot stove, suffering is the "ouch" that follows. It may be the regret at having touched the stove, the holding on to the memory of the pain but it is not the pain itself.
When it comes to God and suffering, my thought would go to whether or not God loves mankind and is also truly all-powerful. If God loves mankind and is all-powerful, then there should be no suffering in the world. I am going on the notion that the human species does not have to be exactly like it is today, and the environment on planet earth does not have to be exactly like it is today. If God can make a heaven where there is no suffering than God can make a planet that has no suffering. There is no need for "tests". If I had a pet dog who I loved, I would not challenge him with painful tests. I would give him the best environment I could provide.
Shannon85 God offers you a perfect everlasting life if you believe in Jesus. Your time here is your chance to ask for it. Love from Australia 🇦🇺
James, what has any child done to deserve to suffer? What sinful desires have they given into to deserve cancer, or starvation, or sexual abuse?
@@3ggshe11s Good way to shut up a religious nut.
Plus if they would take even the story of Adam and eve literally and logically God set them up to fail.
I mean Adam and eve were created without the knowledge of death or good and evil .
So Adam and eve were like children could not make an informed choice.
Heck everything needed to make a choice at bare minimum Adam and eve lacked.
God know if he set everything up the way he did it would end up Like this.
So God is responsible for the evil.
Some places in the bible flat out say it.
Shannon85 Where does the Bible say the earth would be perfect? I doesn’t. You want perfection, prepare yourself for heaven.
James ...it is truly stunning that you can actually be conned into believing such garbage. Free will?? What then is the cause of suffering of animals- are you proposing they have free will? What ‘free will’ causes the ravages of natural disasters?? You need to wake up! Religions has have caused more evil in the world than can possibly be balanced by any good.
Plss ignore my comment.
When did apocalyptic literature first appear?
14:31
16:09
17:23 - reinterpret covenant by prophets like john did with mark
21:55- statistics (how people suffer today )
23:38
28:15- 4 apocalyptic tenets
39:08
when i was a total atheist i had tons of friends, we all drank, partied together, i think what the difference is, is the damn internet, i mean there was internet but i never used it to socialize the way we do now...
I as a secular Buddhist tend to agree with Sidney, it is all in our senses and head and we are pretty small.
RUclips's been suggesting this video for a week, and whenever I see the title I have to think, "Oh, come on, the Bible doesn't mention Bart Ehrman! And he's not _that_ bad a speaker."
NelC very funny lol
🤣🤣🤣 good one!
I would have to agree with you on this matter. He is a well respected professor whom I rank as one of the greatest of our time. I put him up with Doctor Wallace and Geza Vermes. Regardless of his personal beliefs I think he engages well with his classes.
Well I usually dont comment on videos but this one is hard for me to let pass by.
I have watched several of Barts lectures and debates but this one made me feel a tremendous amount of sympathy for Bart .
I'm too had a born experience when I was a teenager and the experience was quite overwhelming. Throughout my journey of life I have changed my beliefs due to life experiences and discovering myself through meditation and study in eastern philosophy.
It saddens me how often people in the west once they loss their faith in Christianity turn straight to atheism.
I have practiced meditation and studied the bhagavad gita, tao te ching the dhammapada and several other systems and honestly I dont think I could ever subscribe to any "ism" however I have had experiences that has completely convinced me of a " universal consciousness ".. I believe that throughout human history mankind has tried to explain the unexplainable.. it cant be done ..
You can't know it but you can be it..
The tao that can be told is not the eternal tao. The name that can be named is not the eternal name.. kinda thing.
Jason McDonald ..it is you, and your brethren who I feel sorry for, not to mention all of us who don’t subscribe to Christianity or islam - for MUCH evil is done by you in your god’s names. Each religion believes his religion is the ‘true’ religion- it is just a ludicrous joke. Develop critical thinking skills and free yourself from these hate-full psychological chains.
I did not choose to exist. My creator bears sole responsibility for my actions and the actions of his other creations.
There is no free will, there are only constrained choices.
These are the types of lectures that religious people should listen to, understand and follow the concepts to their logical, rational and reasonable conclusions. Religious people simply take what they have learned from childhood and don't critically examine what they have been taught or believe to be honest and/or truthful. Religious believers find it easier to believe in faith rather than examine the truth through analysis and critical thinking. Bart Ehrman does a great job here for all!!
Great lecture
The man with glasses is very reasonable nd logical
With John the problem most scholars hold to is that there was a redactor( someone adding to the text or taking away from the text). Your argument is only addressed towards the Synoptic Gospels(Luke,Mark, Matthew).
In a lot of ways, I agree with you. If people want to believe in their religion, let them, since it gives comfort.
The problem is that some religious people want to use their religion as a basis for introducing legislation that affects everyone, whether they agree or not. That's why atheists and agnostics are becoming more vocal in recent years.
Also, just because something is comforting, it doesn't make it true. And if you want to base your life on facts, not mythology...
Terrible logic and trite
Are there any philosphers in ca?
You mean like communist humanists legalising abortion and other headless atrocities born from maybe godcomplex egomania... Mmm yes. But i guess you would not have cared to see that 😒
Pain is natures way to tell you you have to avoid harmful things. Suffering happens because people are attached to their preconceptions as to what they want to happen, not what is.
So it occurred to me at about 16:30 min in after he finished speaking about Jews being the chosen people; Adam and Eve gave rise to all mankind. How are there different types of people? If you believe the Adam and Eve story to be true, don't you have to believe in evolution of some type? God favoring one type of people makes it racist, right?
It's a evolved racist theology with cast mentality
Yeah it does. He would not dissagree with you, I assume.
Perhaps. But they were chosen to help others and bless others not to be above them. They weren’t given special treatment when it comes to their moral wrongs either and were punished sometimes rather severely. And, unless I’m mistaken, pretty much anyone could be a Jew if they wanted. So no racism...
I have one more qoute from Stanford home library on Quantum Gravity. The difficulties in reconciling quantum theory and gravity into some form of quantum gravity come from the prima facie incompatibility of general relativity, Einstein's relativistic theory of gravitation, and quantum field theory, the framework for the description of the other three forces (electromagnetism and the strong and weak nuclear interactions).
With a lot of thanks to Dr Ehrman, who opens our minds, I just thought, that we, the people who deny the existence of god, In fact, do a great favor to him. We take all responsibilities from God's shoulders for all misery around the world!
Wuuuut?
What lots of people (even pastors) don't (yet) understand.
God created us according to His own image and likeness. Godly.
Mankind/the first Adam fell. The image of God in man got lost. That's why there is all this predicament on earth (selfishness, greed, lust, wars, sicknesses, death, etc).
We are all born into that mess.
For the fall of man a perfect atoning sacrifice had to be made.... that is what God did in Christ.
With His own once and for all perefect sacrifice, He paid the debt for the fall of man for us, so we can be indwelled by His Spirit again and finally receive the divine life of the ages back, the first Adam let got of in the fall of man. An amazing act of grace and love by our creator.
That is what you see happening in Christ's first disciples. They too healed all and walked in unselfish love.
And yes.... that is still avaible today. The holy blood is in place, the Holy Spirit is here to give us understanding, power and transform us back to origin.
Not to be debated about, but to be embraced and be-come.
So: The Kingdom of God already came. Through Christ, in Spiritform, in those that understand.
Hence the divine healing miracles we experience.
God manifested in Christ to give us back the divine life mankind lost in the fall of Adam.
Christ, the exact image of the invisible God.
The image we were created after in Gen 1.
The image we lost in the fall of man.
The image that can be freely restored by Christ's blood and Holy Spirit working IN us.
What a plan. What a solution. What a love. What a God. Jesus is amazing.
It is the ultimate conclusion of the word and plan of God. God came full circle.
He Himself stooped down from glory to restore us back to original created value: Christlikeness. Walking in divine healing power and unselfish love.
Jesus, born of the Spirit of God, filled with the spirit of God. The "Son" of God, the incarnated word, God in the flesh.
For three years He healed all, raised the dead, casted out demons, controlled nature, spoke pure divine truth.
He said:
"Follow Me. If you see Me, you see the Father. The Father and I are one. The glory I have IN My Father, I give to you. It pleases the Father to give you His Kingdom/Holy Spirit/divine nature. I will send Holy Spirit, the same as Me, He will be IN you, guide you into truth and give you explosive power. The same miracles i do, you will do too, because you will understand that the Father is IN Me and I am IN you. Freely I give you My Kingdom/Holy Spirit/divine nature, heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons, freely I give, freely share" Etc, etc, etc.
I have experienced thousands of beautifull healing miracles through the power of Holy Spirit IN me already. Broken bones, cancers, covid, all kinds of infirmities healed in seconds. Demons manifesting and casted out by a simple "get out, in Jesus name".
Jesus. De name above all names. In Him all power and wisdom is sourced and.... He calls us one with Him. God in man and man in God again. C'mon Jesus!!
So.... again: God stooped down IN Christ to restore us back to Gen 1:27 were He said: "Let us make man according to our image and likeness and let them have authority.....": walk as Christ.
Christ, the exact image of the invisible God. The image we were created after and being restored to by His atoning blood for the fall of man and indwelling Holy Spirit.
You are free to receive this original divine life of the ages by Holy Spirit of Christ/God. Ask Him to guide you into truth. Read the Gospel of John and fall in love with your creator.
You are not made for the fall of man and its effects, but for the image/glory of God and to walk like Christ. Holy Spirit is the guide and transforming power that will get you there. Amazing grace.
A big leap in faith can be made when we start realizing we are already IN Christ, IN the last Adam.
Free from the fall! Loved! Growing into awareness of our new (yet old) godly identity. Changing by Holy Spirit. The most fullfilled life ever.
Paul healed all on Malta. He understood and wrote:
"As in the first Adam ALL died (lost the divine nature), so also ALL were made alive IN Christ to walk in Zoë (= divine life) again".
"IN Christ (the last Adam) we are co-cruisified (dead to the fall and its effects), co-raised (justified/made righteousness, holy, blameless, above reproach), co-seated (one with Him)"
"The fullness of deity dwells in Christ and YOU HAVE BEEN MADE COMPLETE IN HIM, who is the head of every principality and power".
So.... thank you Jesus! Thank you for redeeming me from the fall of man. Thank you for your Holy Spirit that makes this new (yet old) divine life come alive in me. You are amazing!
In the shadow of Peter the sick healed... He understood too and wrote:
"By Gods power (Holy Spirit) and knowing Christ, we have become partakers of the divine nature and have escaped the fall of man".
The divine life of the ages has been returned to us by Jesus once and for all perfect atoning sacrifice for the debt of the fall of man and His indwelling Holy Spirit in us. Jesus/God is amazing!!!
Ask Him to give you revelation and change you to the way it was before the fall of man: Christlikeness.
He will do so. For it is written: "the Spirit brings forth after His own kind".
"I have come to give you Zoë (divine life) in abundance...."
@@jesusdeity2010 oh look. Words from a fictional book...
@@jesusdeity2010 thanks for letting me know RUclips doesn’t have a character limit 😢
@@jesusdeity2010
Biblical garbage. Nothing in divine or miraculous has been proven. Too sad for you.
AWESOME!
I just watched the whole lecture, and he does indeed explain various ideas about suffering that are contained in the bible.
Here's why there's suffering in the world: micro-organisms that cause disease, weather systems that flare up and kill on occasion, wars that kill non-combatants as well as combatants, animals that kill other animals to eat, etc.
I fail to see how a child being born with a debilitating deformity or disease or a lifetime of pain makes anyone better. It just sucks.
Well said I agree enjoy life
Twelve lines? I can answer the question in four words: God LOVES human suffering.
He likes it so much, in fact, that he couldn't get enough of it in this world. So he created a place where he could torture people forever. Of course the authors of the Bible didn't want to admit that. Factor that in and it all makes perfect sense. And that's the ONLY way the Bible makes any sense. It's only when you try to claim that god loves us that the explanation required becomes much longer and never really satisfies.
Fortunately the god of the Bible is only a myth.
+The National Razor
It certainly seems as you describe.
There's an easier answer tho. God doesn't exist, and everything that happens in life is exactly as we expect, considering there's no god interfering in our lives. Things, good and bad, happen for natural reasons.
The National Razor 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
The National Razor soooo cynical. Must suck being you?
... Well, Mother Teresa certainly believed that!
The stupid human mind created the God story. The same mind that believes in human sacrifice...eg the human sacrifice of Jesus.
Well done Bart. Suffering happens to all organisms on this planet. Humans are just another organism, (possibly the worst) but no more important than an antelope, a mouse or a bee.
@glassmancanada
That's the kind of LOVE that a man feels for his wife when he beats her to keep her in line, and she in turn feels more affection for him the more he kicks her butt. It's a sickness, not love...
I'm delighted
so made sense bro!
Glad you decided to keep writing. About this 👍
Yep. You gotta question the thing when a carrot is dangling as incentive. We shouldn't need incentive to do good (or rather, NOT to do bad).
"Now, little Timmy, if you're GOOD, you can have a cookie." That's simply the wrong message.
"Now, little Christian, if you're GOOD, why, you DON'T get a cookie unless you BELIEVE in my millienia-long fairy tale and invite Jeebus into your pancreas."
Just a question: How many people are willing to die for a lie???? CUZ ALL THE DISCIPLES OF CHRIST BUT ONE WERE MARTYRED FOR PREACHING THE " GOOD NEWS"! NO ONE WILLING DIES FOR A LIE! READ/ WATCH " THE CASE FOR CHRIST. "
We also need help knowing what is good and what is bad. Except we know it in our hearts already. But we all fail to do what is right and good. Which is why we need a SAVIOR.....
"believing in afterlife" is not an early judaistic idea , its an idea judaism adopt from greek neoplatonic philosophy
51:40 "I am an atheist, as well as a revolutionary and a communist"... thats a hell of a way to start a question lol but thanks for sharing, comrade
You NEED courage , conviction and honesty to state your conclusion and position , FIRST.
Religion separates families
the verses from Ecclesiastes is very VERY similar to a blessing bestowed on Gilgamesh in the Sumerian Epic of Gilgamesh.
almost word for word.
The people who wrote the old testament borrowed heavily from ancient Sumer.
I am an Ethiopian. Ethiopia is the earliest country to receive chrstianity long before any others knew it.
Your country is a good example for the fact that believing this bullshit doesn't help. :-)
Purely adore Dr.Ehrman. Still I'm curious, wasn't it the "human's" choice to eat the apples and go to this world instead of staying in the garden of Eden? Doesn't it explain to Christians the suffering they are going through? And then the reason is always in ancestors and us, for the future generations. But anyway, I'm feeling comfortable with karma and Buddhist explanation of suffering.
What seems to get overlooked is that in the story there were two trees/fruits that were forbidden, the Tree of The Knowledge of Good and Evil and The Tree of Life (Immortality). God became angry when he finds out A&E have the "Knowledge" and have became "like Us" and the alarmed and say "We gotta kick these two out of the Garden before they eat of The Tree of Life and live forever!" So, they're kicked out not for eating of the TotKoG&E but kicked out before they can eat of TToL...
And that begs the question, before the "Fall" was it God's plan they would eventually die ... and was Eve going to have a pleasant time in childbirth? And they wouldn't have to work the land etc? ....
@@hurdygurdyguy1 Who put the trees in the garden? Tell an innocent child not to do something and you will arouse their curiosity about an idea they hadn't even thought of.
We are paying for the sinsof Adam and eve. That's unfair. We are only responsible for. Our ownisyakes and sins we cannot place the burden on our offspring asis taught of Adam and eve.
"Either you're for or against my exact form of belief" is what you're saying. That is not the definition of having an open mind. And you're not answering my questions, or addressing the point that a believer whose faith is strong has no need to criticize a historian. So the argument is officially over.
All the paradoxes are solved by the simple hypothesis that god simply doesn't exist. Ocham's Razor.
I think you misunderstand Occams Razor.
@@Actuary1776 If God is just an assumption. Rather putting more assumptions it's better to get rid of the first one.
Al-Akib Eliminate God because it’s an assumption, and replace it with what? Non matter producing matter and geochemistry producing biochemistry? I’m not sure I would consider that a simplification.
IF GOD is not exit, I ASK you a question. DO YOU EVER see a rock can be a perfect a human being, in your life?
it is too perfect, so ofcourse there is a creator
@Asadul Hasan Rasel According to the bible, this deity created the universe from nothing.
There never was nothing.
Bart Ehrman is the best, what a great conversation stopper
Ask Buddha about suffering. And you will learned why.
Its the very first thing Buddha thought to his 5 students.
So, no proof. Plus no one should suffer.
Im not interested in existence anyway so the truth doesnt matter. I dont like life.
The question of "Theodicy" is not: "How can God be just?". [8:44 and following]
It is "How can God be justified [by man]?".
Regarding to Leibniz, who first raised this question with this very description.
And that is a whole different question.
Again, this is a one hour lecture about his book - NOT a sermon on how to behave and why! What do you want from the guy? Jeez.
To not be a fraud and a lyer.
@@nathancurtis9779 Replying with a nonsensical comment on a 12 year old comment, and you can't even spell. Go away kid, you bother me.
@@nathancurtis9779 a liar? Why a liar? Pls explain! And learn to spell it correctly.
“Liar” with an I not a Y!
Ok I will have to come back. Later after I have looked at Suffering is not for nothing by Elisabeth Elliot. I am desperate!❤️
@@winniethuo9736 suffering is the unnecessary and meaningless pain.. its a specific version of death n agony
In general, physical quantities are described by a quantum state which gives a probability distribution over many different values, and increased specificity (narrowing of the distribution) of one property (e.g., position, electric field) gives rise to decreased specificity of its canonically conjugate property (e.g., momentum, magnetic field). This is an expression of Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle. In the context of quantum gravity the fluctuating geometry is known as “spacetime foam”.
Okay, so I'm only in Numbers right now. (frankly I'm finding it a pretty tedious and ridiculous book so far. There's more truth about the human condition in Shakespeare.)
I can comprehend evil - yes, there are people out there who do lots of evil stuff. I don't believe the devil makes them do it, that's an excuse and relieves them of the accountability for their actions. And good people do evil stuff too, and for them to do it gleefully and self-righteously...that takes religion.
Don't get me started on THAT!
But I have to say, we've pretty much highjacked this page with our discussion. I'm glad we kept it civil, but we've covered a couple of pages now with just our little back and forth.
It's been fun - but I have to do some work now!
Imagine a world in which there was no pain, no suffering, no serious consequence of a foolish decision. This is the world the atheist speaks of when he rails against God, the creator of all things, whom he hates for his poor designs. "What good comes of your pain and suffering? What purpose do they serve?” I hear them cry.
A mother to her child in a perfect world that knows no pain or suffering: “Don’t worry about coming home this evening. I'll see you sometime tomorrow. What’s that you ask about bad men? Don’t worry about bad men. There are no bad men. No evil can come your way. You'll be okay. See you tomorrow. What’s that you say? What about dinner? Don’t worry about dinner. It’s not necessary because there’s no such thing as starvation or malnutrition. Your growth will not be affected at all. So stay out as long as you like. Have a good time. I’ll see you when you get back, If you decide to come back at all. The choice is yours I suppose. Anyway, it’s been nice knowing you kid.”
Love is the EXERCISING of love - doing the deeds of love - nurturing, feeding, clothing, caring, helping, saving, repairing, nursing, taking up the burden, going in another’s place. Love can ONLY be revealed by its action, when it is needed.
Simple statements declaring love mean nothing if there is no harm, no pain, no suffering. There’s just no need for it. In fact, it might even get in the way.
But I don't want to love exclusively by exercising my love with the deeds of love in sickness and disaster. I will if I must but I certainly don’t want to have to be doing that every day. I hope that sickness and disaster can be kept to a minimum in my life. I want to love in good times too, with every passing moment possible. And I can by being there and caring - by protecting and defending because danger is all around and if I turn my back for an instant all might be lost. But I can only care against the harm - the starvation, the exposure, the sickness, the deterioration - all the harm that might be done if there’s neglect because there is no love. So I care because I must so that harm is not done or it is undone. I love because I must so that harm is not done or it is undone.
Harm, pain, suffering - these are the only chances love has.
I can rejoice in the good times because it is a beautiful world, and it’s full of love to protect me on my way.
Look from the beginning I was just stating a fact that it is possible to believe in something that one cannot see. I understand your stance on this matter.
Pofessor Bart is such an interesting man
there is suffering because there is enjoyment,for every positive there is a negative.
Suffering purifies. That's why God allows or sends suffering. Suffering reminds those in the state of mortal sin that they need to convert. Suffering makes people who are in the state of grace like the suffering Christ, Who, though innocent of any sin, suffered patiently.
George Penton How does this apply to children who die of horrific neglect and abuse? Or who are scarred for life by sexual abuse? How does your smug hypothesis apply to them?
@@fredtheunicorn4241 your words are wise and your name sublime.
causalfunnel sequence Thank you for your kind words.
What God accomplished against suffering:
What lots of people (even pastors) don't (yet) understand.
God created us according to His own image and likeness. Godly.
Mankind/the first Adam fell. The image of God in man got lost. That's why there is all this predicament on earth (selfishness, greed, lust, wars, sicknesses, death, etc).
We are all born into that mess.
For the fall of man a perfect atoning sacrifice had to be made.... that is what God did in Christ.
With His own once and for all perefect sacrifice, He paid the debt for the fall of man for us, so we can be indwelled by His Spirit again and finally receive the divine life of the ages back, the first Adam let got of in the fall of man. An amazing act of grace and love by our creator.
That is what you see happening in Christ's first disciples. They too healed all and walked in unselfish love.
And yes.... that is still avaible today. The holy blood is in place, the Holy Spirit is here to give us understanding, power and transform us back to origin.
Not to be debated about, but to be embraced and be-come.
So: The Kingdom of God already came. Through Christ, in Spiritform, in those that understand.
Hence the divine healing miracles we experience.
God manifested in Christ to give us back the divine life mankind lost in the fall of Adam.
Christ, the exact image of the invisible God.
The image we were created after in Gen 1.
The image we lost in the fall of man.
The image that can be freely restored by Christ's blood and Holy Spirit working IN us.
What a plan. What a solution. What a love. What a God. Jesus is amazing.
It is the ultimate conclusion of the word and plan of God. God came full circle.
He Himself stooped down from glory to restore us back to original created value: Christlikeness. Walking in divine healing power and unselfish love.
Jesus, born of the Spirit of God, filled with the spirit of God. The "Son" of God, the incarnated word, God in the flesh.
For three years He healed all, raised the dead, casted out demons, controlled nature, spoke pure divine truth.
He said:
"Follow Me. If you see Me, you see the Father. The Father and I are one. The glory I have IN My Father, I give to you. It pleases the Father to give you His Kingdom/Holy Spirit/divine nature. I will send Holy Spirit, the same as Me, He will be IN you, guide you into truth and give you explosive power. The same miracles i do, you will do too, because you will understand that the Father is IN Me and I am IN you. Freely I give you My Kingdom/Holy Spirit/divine nature, heal the sick, raise the dead, cast out demons, freely I give, freely share" Etc, etc, etc.
I have experienced thousands of beautifull healing miracles through the power of Holy Spirit IN me already. Broken bones, cancers, covid, all kinds of infirmities healed in seconds. Demons manifesting and casted out by a simple "get out, in Jesus name".
Jesus. De name above all names. In Him all power and wisdom is sourced and.... He calls us one with Him. God in man and man in God again. C'mon Jesus!!
So.... again: God stooped down IN Christ to restore us back to Gen 1:27 were He said: "Let us make man according to our image and likeness and let them have authority.....": walk as Christ.
Christ, the exact image of the invisible God. The image we were created after and being restored to by His atoning blood for the fall of man and indwelling Holy Spirit.
You are free to receive this original divine life of the ages by Holy Spirit of Christ/God. Ask Him to guide you into truth. Read the Gospel of John and fall in love with your creator.
You are not made for the fall of man and its effects, but for the image/glory of God and to walk like Christ. Holy Spirit is the guide and transforming power that will get you there. Amazing grace.
A big leap in faith can be made when we start realizing we are already IN Christ, IN the last Adam.
Free from the fall! Loved! Growing into awareness of our new (yet old) godly identity. Changing by Holy Spirit. The most fullfilled life ever.
Paul healed all on Malta. He understood and wrote:
"As in the first Adam ALL died (lost the divine nature), so also ALL were made alive IN Christ to walk in Zoë (= divine life) again".
"IN Christ (the last Adam) we are co-cruisified (dead to the fall and its effects), co-raised (justified/made righteousness, holy, blameless, above reproach), co-seated (one with Him)"
"The fullness of deity dwells in Christ and YOU HAVE BEEN MADE COMPLETE IN HIM, who is the head of every principality and power".
So.... thank you Jesus! Thank you for redeeming me from the fall of man. Thank you for your Holy Spirit that makes this new (yet old) divine life come alive in me. You are amazing!
In the shadow of Peter the sick healed... He understood too and wrote:
"By Gods power (Holy Spirit) and knowing Christ, we have become partakers of the divine nature and have escaped the fall of man".
The divine life of the ages has been returned to us by Jesus once and for all perfect atoning sacrifice for the debt of the fall of man and His indwelling Holy Spirit in us. Jesus/God is amazing!!!
Ask Him to give you revelation and change you to the way it was before the fall of man: Christlikeness.
He will do so. For it is written: "the Spirit brings forth after His own kind".
"I have come to give you Zoë (divine life) in abundance...."
And there is the kid who didn't read the bible. ;-)
my love to you Bart, I'm an absolute 100% believer in God, (mathematically life's imposible without an intelligent agent..prove me wronrg mathematically, not emotionally, or quoting just authority). I understand the intellectual/emotional/personal/spiritual/ pain you've suffered...believe me, I do...
I'm not the brightis buld in the house but i wish i knew the answers but o don't and can only go by what these people know by what they studied, i also am hurt spiritually to think there is know God or anything after we pass and i wish there is one, but i am still looking for the answers but im not getting any
Well to start. How did you "mathematically" calculate the probability of an intelligent designer? And how did you come to the conclusion that it was your god?
If life is impossible without an intelligent agent, what created the intelligent agent... a super intelligent agent?
You were great in Lincoln...
daniel day-lewis. satan is the hod of yhis world. thats why we vote for peoplei like trump.
it seems the human part in all of us comes out ~~~ everyone looks at things from their point of view in relation to what they know at that moment in time
Yes, and Christians are constantly proving that they didn't even pay attention in high school.
Ecclesiates sounds a bit like the Buddha. Present moment, wonderful moment.
Our great scholar here,is pretty good my point of view, but as a fact checker, I would like to state that he mentioned ‘a parable of the fig tree’ in the book of Matthew text-however, he tells us that it is in Matthew 25 not Matthew 24 where it is actually located FYI if you care to read.
Excellent lecture, but that white sweater must go!
Autodidact2 😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂
It is unfortunate that there are not notes or guides on this video.
from Amos... "the beatings will continue until morale improves"
This Guy is amazing
His want and truth won't let him but loose his once faith. good though for his brightness is bliss and coming back some day.
"This book was taken very seriously in North Carolina"
Note to self: Stay the fuck out of North Carolina.
TomFynn ...with the Trump chaos and evil, gun culture and the religious insanity in the US- not to mention the combination of the three! We no longer have a desire to tour America from Canada, thank you very much. It may have been a great country once but it is seriously losing ground.
God doesn't create sufferings , but evil men do
How much did jesus charge for building a home improvement.?
Very thoughtful
Yep, His intense studies of the Bible (meaning, the actual manuscripts and all the info surrounding their creation and canonization) forced him to conclude the only thing one can - it's false. I think he doesn't claim to be an atheist but just agnostic.
The Bible for answers... BWAHHAHAHAHAHAHA!
He has said in many a podcast that he is an agnostic atheist. He doesn't know for certainly if there's a god but still doesn't believe in the other gods of the religions of the earth.
I thought it was because he couldn’t reconcile suffering with the idea of God. Not because of what he read...
Everyone has an eternal soul that lives in eternal bliss. Forever ... Then souls get too much bliss. So they come to earth to get UN blissed. For a short life. And go back to eternal bliss. Again. Being thankful they are in bliss. And they don't have to suffer anymore as a human
Riddles.com How do you know that? Are you a demigod (aka an angel)?
someone could subtitle this video in spanish... are very interesting, but I cant´n understand the speech
I wonder why will there be a resurrection of judgement if Jesus died for our sins, that doesn't add up right in my thoughts. Also the bible says that, the wages of sin is death, so if the sin is paid already by one dying, why would they be judged after being resurrected. That is not a question actually, it is a thought.
It might been only christians. Non-christians might be the ones who will be judged. In Bible jesus says no one can came to father except through me. So it makes sense that ones who reject jesus their sin wont be paid
@@mehmetsimsek4794 Catholics (who are the original and only true Christians) don't believe that one can come to god through Jesus. Jesus is merely the example for the kinds of deeds that one has to do to come to the father. He is not a keyhole. The latter idea is Protestant bullshit.
Any god who would inflict mass punishment in order to garner adoration can only be said to be evil or insecure. Either way, he isn't worth believing in.
LibertarianOnWheels What are you basing your comment on? What evidence do you have that backs up what you are saying about God ? Can you tell me what you have read and studied from what is recorded in scripture? Or, what other source you are coming to your comment, thanks.
My comment is based on a rational application of logic to the supposed powers/characteristics of your god. If he is said to be all-powerful, how or why does he not stop evil, or natural disasters from slaughtering innocents? If he is all-loving, why create a penalty for sin? Why not just forgive? If he is said to be all-merciful, why create a hell? And so on.
check out 'drunk with blood'. you will find out what killer god is. taken straight from the bible.
You don't understand god.
Yes the Christian god Jesus is satan.... Christian's worship satan.
I tuned in to see and hear what Ehrman had to say, but I did not expect it to start with an introduction by Professor Susanna Elm. You know what she is working on at the moment? A book on the role of slavery and tattoos in the formation of Christianity. Wish I had her as an instructor when I was in college.
wow I can't believe at this time of the video, he was only an atheist for 10 years despite being a theologian. I don't get it. how can a theologian that studies thousand of manuscripts and find many discrepancies and forgeries, still believe in the Christian God?
Religion has 3 important components - Belief, Behavior and Belonging. While one may necessarily belief in God, one can still be religious
it is not a programmed nor brainwashed. each of us has the right to choose our life in this earth and religion. it's my faith that brings me to islam. bible teaches me that God is one and so the islam.
'stuff happens' ? This is the answer to why there are earthquakes and tsunamis? Bart there are other sciences which address these things and there is an understanding of what's going on. We know what causes earthquakes and tsunamis there is no mystery. Why are people killed in such events? There are reasons why people might live in particular areas and when natural events occur they do so for reasons which are largely understood and since people living in the area are part of the situation they can be effected.
It's a shame Bart is so unsympathetic to Harrison and the others' position I don't think he characterized it fairly. They do know the madness that is called religion these are not ignorant people they just see it from a different point of view and they're all doing very important work.
I agree with everything you said. Bart is a great person and always tries to be nice even to crazies. He is right that we should be knowledgeable about religions before attacking them but as your comment implied, there is no "single way of dealing with problems caused be religion". Different people have different approaches and indeed, his description of Harris was, at least, unfair.
Although again, he is really good and does a great job.
Phelan Yours does too? I thought it was just me that had that coffee table issue.
People pray for whatever is causing them to suffer to be healed, and when they catch some luck, they say, "Hallelujah, a miracle!" When things don't go their way, they say, "Well, God works in mysterious ways. This was a part of his plan." But if there is a grand, unalterable plan (which for some unfathomable reason includes suffering), why pray? It is always interesting to hear that people pray about the pettiest of everyday issues--apparently it is part of the plan to help some people give good presentations at work, while letting others die of painful diseases.
I love of all Ehrman's books, lectures and his views are well-researched, reasonable and agree with mainstream scholarship. He is brilliant and I am a fan. But his comments about the 'new' atheists is a little off-base. Sam Harris for instance has specifically said on many occasions that religion is not the cause of all evil in the world. Dawkins and Hitchens grew up with religion and are vastly more knowledgeable about the bible than most people apart from biblical scholars perhaps. Hitchens subtitle to his book religion poison's everything is admittedly a bold statement that he ultimately defends, more so in the sense that the delusion that affirms religion is part of the delusion that allows theocracy, dictatorship, oppression etc. I have heard Ehrman make statements that are almost word-for-word identical to some made by the four horseman of the counter apocalypse on numerous occasions.
No mention Job??
Job was the most solid
@@noway2708 oh, you again.
animals such as dogs cats even pigs have dreams love and be pets , why does god let them die and suffer, they didn't sin
We are still WAITING for justice against evil
Thank You professor Bart Ehrman. You are God’s gift to present day Humanity .
Lol ... an atheist is God's gift. How is that exactly?
@@joeboxter3635 lol..even a stone,water, air, light, a dog, everthing can be received and be seen as A God gift..even watching a stupid pig can be seen as a God gift.....
a human ..no matter if he/she an atheis or theis or what ever..can be seen as a God gift too..
.... rejoicing is good..for your body and soul health .. ... hehe..
I believe in Jesus Christ ...
. the God,the truth,the way,the life..😄 Shaloom..
That is more than a moronic oxymoron,.since neither you nor Bart believe in God.
32:19
So only people who've been mummified will still be intact enough to raise from the dead?
What about all the humans who've completely decomposed or been cremated?
It seems that random and intense suffering is a required ingredient for creating creatures that have true agency. Otherwise would they not be compelled to make the choices that always result in comfort?
Our nervous systems cannot healthfully contend with randomness and arbitrary logic. That’s actually the source of our suffering.
Thank you!! Please share a transcript...?