People were drawing fanart about Tobi being Obito before we were told he was “Madara”. The signs were all clearly there. People just really fell for an obvious Red Herring (why would Tobi still wear a mask after telling the entire world his “secret identity”?).
@@flygonkerel781 - That's the thing that made me doubt at times, it was *so* obvious than I kept looking for other options... I got into Naruto relatively late, like right before the 3rd Ninja War started (when I caught up, the latest chapter was literally Tobi marching to war)... So the community had a long time to speculate, and I didn't have to wait too long to find out for real. And by that time, we had been given even more indications that he was Obito (the stuff he told Kakashi when they encountered), but there were still a lot of questions. I still remember when it was finally confirmed, when the shot of Naruto breaking Tobi's mask switched to a picture of kid Obito, and the spoiler was EVERYWHERE if you didn't read the raw as soon as it was online. That was some *OMG SNAPE KILLS DUMBLEDORE!!§§* level of spoiler, (even if suddenly no one had any doubts ever that Obito was a massive red herring)
@@randallflagg3700 i was active on mangaspoilers ~13 years ago and i'd say most people thought it's Obito. There were some lengthy posts about why it can't be Obito (he should've died under the rock, organs smashed etc), but nobody had a good answer to who he was. Though i was also in the camp of people that thought Obito should be dead until he talked to Kakashi during the war.
@@Faude18 - Indeed. There was a small clan of "well duh it's Madara", but they weren't that many. Something that threw the Obito gang was also the Kisame flashback when Tobi, hidden in the shadows, revealed himself to him claiming to be Madara... Kisame says that Madara is dead, and to show himself to prove who he is. Tobi starts walking toward him, saying something like "alright, let's see if you trust me..." and right when Kisame sees his face, he bites his tongue to get out of the flashback, and then kills himself. Coupled with the scene in which Tobi approches Kisame while they were alone, and after taking his mask off, Kisame says "Well that's surprising, I never would have expected that you were Tobi... with you pulling the strings, it will be easier for me to do my job" That was a big "good job explaining that, Obitofags" in the community (I mean I wasn't really "in" the community like I was for Berserk, Vinland Saga, Kingdom, Dragon Ball or Vagabond, but I still knew the big topics of discussion for Naruto)
Even if after "revealing" himself to be madara did change some people's theories back then, Kabuto showing Tobi the "other" coffin as a form of blackmail without us seeing who was in it definitely confirmed he wasn't Madara since it was heavily implied that's who was in that coffin
There's actually something that I've been thinking of a lot. During the fight between Minato and Obito, there's a moment when Minato asks him if he is Madara Uchiha. And right after that Obito takes off his hood showing his hair, like deep inside he wants Minato to recognize him. And then Minato just says that it doesn't matter how he is.
obito even calls him out for it too saying that despite minato being his teacher he couldn't recognize him at all with minato starting to doubt his decisions in life question that if he'd have know it was obito from the start he might have been able to stop him before sealing the Nine tails
@@peplegal32 but at that point, not only is Obito supposed to be dead but he has Hashirama cells/chakra so his chakra signature would be different. Add onto that that Obito was nowhere near that powerful before and I don't see why even a sensory ninja would assume it's him
@@aytaf5430 I'm not sure if it was in the Manga, but it was in the Anime right at the end of the Kazekaga rescue mission. And we find out that deidera is still alive and Tobi gives him back his arm.
There's also the fact that in hindsight their abilities are related. Kakashi creates a black hole to the Kamui, using the portals offensively while Obito uses his defensively in phasing and teleportation, but they ultimately are applications of the same ability because they're both Obito's eyes. Even Kakashi learns to use his Kamui defensively by sucking projectiles into the dimension. And when Obito teleports it looks like Kakashi's ability used on himself. And Kakashi reveals his mangekyo just before Tobi reveals himself.
The moment I saw Zetsu and Tobi together I started theorizing that perhaps the body of Tobi was Obito, but Madara was implanted into his body, and that's why he was introducing himself as Madara. And that him acting all goofy and silly was the Obito personality remnants leaking out. And that'd it all conclude in Obito waking up and trying to peel Madara off his body. I was like "What if Zetsu was a first attempt of combining two different bodies into a same one, and to make Madara survive and grow stronger they used Obito's body). It wasn't exactly that but still, I was onto something with all my crazy teen years old ramblings!
I thought a similar way. Obito was the most obvious but if it’s not him, then I thought that it could be Madara that stole Obito’s body or something. There’s no way that Obito wasn’t involved in whoever “Tobi” was.
An interesting parallel that very early cemented tobis connection to Kakashi, even without outright telling, is that kakashi face is both the same and opposite of tobis. Both are completely masked only showing their one eye for 90% of the time and both only show the right eye. But the contrast is where the connection shine. Kakashi sees with his normal eye, tobi sees with his sharingan. Kakashis mask is dark blue, or black, and tobis is orange or white. Tobis hair is black and Kakashis is white.
One retcon I didn’t get about Obito is how Kamui works, originally Obito couldn’t attack and Kamui at the same Time, he wold literally be intangible until he wanted to attack but later on we learn that Obito is actually only using Kamui on the parts of his body being attacked which means that he should be able to attack and Kamui at the same time. Also when he fights Konan she says that Obito can’t faze for more than 5 minutes and that turns out to be true because Obito has to use izanagi to escape, but later on we learn that he can essentially stay in the Kamui dimension indefinitely, also I’m pretty sure we see Obito teleport but Konan says that he can’t
@@rialyandriamiseza9814 The worst part of that is how Obito never decided to simply get his other eye back despite the fact that it'd be logical to do so and he definitely didn't care about Kakashi at that time. He'd be too much to handle with his DMS and Hashirama cells.
I think the teleportation of his actual body to and from the Kamui dimension is distinct from the ability to shift specific body parts to the Kamui dimension to avoid interaction/damage; it is the latter that has a 5 min time limit, but the former actually makes use of the barrier created by distal Kamui to send Obito’s own body to the Kamui dimension. The “defensive Kamui” has a time limit; the “teleport Kamui” does not.
I always thought he could teleport short distances since he has the short distance Kamui. As for the time limit, that's a little more confusing. Either she was just wrong, or Obito purposely only stayed in the Kamui dimension to set up an expectation that he could subvert mid-battle. In the end, if not for izanagi, Konan probably would have killed him regardless of the time limit. He'd have to come out eventually, whether it be to 600 billion bombs or the bottom of a lake he'd have to get out of.
@@Ntimidation separating it into two abilities would explain it but that would imply that you can have 2 ms abilities in one eye, which I guess is technically true because Sauske but that’s different lol
My main problem with Obito was never his mere existence as the masked man. That much was believable enough. My problem is that he can be anywhere at any time, and has an attack that instakills anybody slower than Minato, which is everybody. He could have just captured all nine tailed beasts on his own, gotten the rinnegan on his own, and accomplished the eye of the moon plan on his own. Kamui is way too powerful. For example, he could have gone back to the leaf village the day after Minato's death and kidnapped Naruto. There's absolutely nobody who could have stopped him. He can stand completely still and win most fights.
he had to get a bunch of shinobi in one place at one time for the divine tree. the tree feeds off the shinobis chakra to survive. the war was the best way to get all of them in one place for the tree to sprout
@@timhardaway6501 Or, hear me out. He could have just used like, 4 kage level shinobi as chakra batteries. Naruto alone can give every allied shinobi 3 times Kakashi's chakra and keep fighting like nothing ever happened. He could also just become the jinchuriki of the ten tails, and pull off the plan without the tree. Which was his original plan anyway. Finally, he could have declared war after ensuring that it was impossible for the enemy villages to win. Like after killing all 5 kage, already being in possession of all 9 tailed beasts, and having reacquired his other sharingan from Kakashi. No matter how you look at it, Obito's version of this plan is the worst possible version once you consider the fact that he can be anywhere he wants via teleportation, and can one shot anybody slower than Minato. Dude could just use the Akatsuki members as fuel for the tree instead of recruiting them, lol.
@@ClashBluelight i agree. only thing i can say is maybe morally he was holding back and wanted to give the shinobi a chance considering deep down he didn’t want to do it. other than that i don’t know
@@timhardaway6501 But deep down, he did want to do it. He was only convinced against the idea by Naruto. And Naruto didn't make some appeal to Obito's inner self, he just won the debate.
Another massive hint that feels like it should have given it away in hindsight: Kakashi's MS ability is Kamui, which he uses to make objects disappear with a spiral pattern. We then later see Tobi making himself disappear and appear with a very similar spiral pattern. When you take into consideration that both eyes often form a synchronous set, (For example, Sasuke gaining Amaterasu in one eye and Flame Control in the other) and Kakashi and Tobi both have the opposite eye on their faces, it starts to click together very quickly that Kakashi's eye is part of the set that goes with Tobi's to make a pair, and therefore points towards Obito as Tobi's identity since it's him who gave Kakashi his eye.
I personally think "Tobi being Obito who was Kakashi's childhood friend" was always planned BUT it's everything around it that was changed. ie: Kakashi's role in the story, Madara being more of a mythical title, Obito's motivation,... It's obvious that Kishimoto changed the trajectory of the story and world multiple times while writing them.
i agree. i heard somewhere that originally kishimoto planned to end the series around the end of part 1. If that was the case obito being alive and being the main villain doesnt make a lot of sense. I think obito being kakashis dead friend and giving kakashi his eye was decided as early as kakashi himself. but him being alive, controlling the akatsuki and releasing kurama seems like later aditions, around the end of part 1 and the start of obito flashback. earliest i can see this being the case is the introduction of akatsuki but thats probably the earliest point i think it can be.
@@thelegendarymarioman8461 yeah ofc a unknown series from 1999 is definitely gonna have a 600 chapter sequel no it wasn’t that’s not how this works. One piece was supposed to end in 5 years but then it got popular. Naruto probably had a similar path like are parts planned from the beginning yeah but shot changes cus jump wants it too. Like Kayuga legit only exists because they wanted another sequel to Naruto to make money. Like I enjoy reading stories but you can’t remove reality from how thee are written
Looking back on it now, I definitely feel like the Tobi is Obito reveal was the previous generations version of the Dabi is Toya Todoroki twist. Personally for myself and my cousin, we figured it out pretty early on and just wanted to see how it plays out. And yeah, the reveal in the War arc lived up to the hype
For a while, I bought into the lie that Tobi was Madara. But then I noticed that, even after the "reveal", he never removed the mask. If we already knew that he was "Madara", why was he still wearing a mask? I knew that Tobi was Obito already since the Five Kages' Summit.
It was already obvious he was not madara when sasuke blinded him and he lost his mask, he looked nothing like the madara itachi showed sasuke in that flashback before they fought.
@@justinarzola4584 Nah, I don’t think that sealed it. It’s been decades, man. He’s not going to look the same as in those flashbacks. If you are referring to being able to see the scars, you have to remember how old Madara would have been at that point in the story if he was alive. We have no idea how he’s aged, what damage he took in his fight against Hashirama, or the battle scars he accumulated between then and now.
What he told kakashi at the 5 kage summit - that made me actual think it was Obito, everything else was hearsay and a long reach. When he said his jutsu would not work then I was like okay it's either him or he has his ability somehow.
You forget that Tobi = Danzo was an extremely popular theory. I remember debating with people back on an old blog site weareawesomeness about it. No one though he was Madara there, and I think there was maybe one guy that thought it was Shisui. The big tell for me was when I first saw Tobi teleporting. It looked a lot like kamui. The issue was that Tobi is shown using kamui several times woth a regular sharingan. Ot made it difficult to say with certainty that it was Obito. The argument was that Danzo could have gotten it during the Uchiha massacre, or even before that. Tobi's fight with Minato also gave people the impression that Obito would have been too young and weak to fight Minato to that extent. This gave a lot of creditability to the Danzo, given the always bandaged arm and covered right eye. I always had to point out that it was the left arm that fell off against Minato, but I will admit that I was almost convinced several times and everyone was basically guessing between Danzo and Obito until the Kage Summit. Its not as if there hadn't been plotholes in manga panels before, and it gave us plenty to talk about. I can't remember if it was on iareawesomeness (original blog) or weareawesomeness, but there was a hilarious fanfiction that assumed Tobi was Obito, but also possessed by the ghost of Patrick Swayze. It was called the Swayzegan and it involved a lot of roundhouse kicking.
So my problem with it while I get it from a Danzo wanting to be the one in charge of the village in staging events to become as they were. Getting rid of the 4th, Uchiha discourse in having an excuse to kill them as the ones behind it all, putting blame onto Sarutobi for him to fall and for himself to rise. The underlying problem however is that if there's one thing I do know, and I think can be widely agreed upon with him is that while he's an extremist it's all for the "protection" of the village. I just would never buy it as seems out of character like at worst he'll prevent others in saving the village like how he did with killing the messenger frog to alert Naruto to come back to the village when Pain showed up, but yeah just seems for that theory it goes against his character as too much of a show of force in harming the village on his part.
@@SonicLegends Yeah, a lot of people came around to it. I was always railing on about it being Obito, given the hair length and mannerisms of Tobi, but we didn't really ever get the full picture of who Danzo really was until the Kage Summit, which is pretty much where the theory went up in flames for obvious reasons. His motivations were quite guarded and he always came across as a schemer. I theorist speculated that Itachi had made threats against him, so he never took his chance by force. It was a fun theory that did hold up fairly well, it just always made more sense to me that it was Obito. No one else made too much sense in my eyes. Now that we did have a clear picture of what Danzo was all about, he defintely wouldn't have done anything to discard the Leaf, and he definitely wanted to keep a tight leash on his tailed beast weapon. Good riddance to him, but definitely more interesting than a heartbroken, half-broken teen that got manipulated by Madara. And let's be real, Madara wouldn't have gotten clowned on by Minato so easily. Even if we never saw him before, we knew how strong his legend was. His powers didn't make sense for anyone we knew of other than Obito as well.
I know that his power makes people believe like Madara. But what makes me wonder is why didn't Onoki ask him if he recognized him (Onoki and Mu fought Madara), and if Tobi didn't recognize Onoki, then Tobi is not Madara. But I think Kishimoto sensei is keeping that part later on during the actual fight with Madara.
That's pretty redundant question, Ōnoki is Tsuchikage he's the longest serving Kage outlived all 3rd generations of Kages of 5 great hidden village, all capable Shinobi definitely know his face, they don't live in stone age they have cameras and tv.
In the chapter where Naruto and Kakashi talk about Tobi probably being Madara (455), we later see that Danzo also has sharingan in his right eye. Yes, there was a theory that Tobi was Danzo, who used Koto Amatsukami on someone else and made them believe they are the real Danzo.
I was really hoping Tobi wouldn't be Obito but some rogue ninja who was running around using his other eye and that we would see Kakashi go absolutely BALISTIC!
The identity of tobi was never a real mistery, tbh. At least for the manga readers. He was the only character that would make sense. The whole "I am madara" thing was clever, but when Kabuto showed the unknown edo tensei, the mistery was solved.
Nah at that time, that was a big fight back in the day - there was far more evidence of him being either madara, izuna or some other unknown ninja. At the time the big claims of why it was obito was literally his name and his hair. Nothing else made sense. Only later on was more evidence shown giving merit to the claim.
I saw a theory from more than a decade ago where someone drew a connection between tobi's space time ninjutsu and kakashis kamui. Which was a crazy connection to make for the time.
Obito was mentioned in part 1 already, I doubt it was for no reason. I think Kishimoto planned it for a long time and by the time Tobi was introduced, he was meant to be Obito - just playing other roles, a fool Tobi and later "Madara". Obito was also directly connected to the storyline from the very beginning through Kakashi. There was no reason for Tobi to be anyone else.
Obito was just Kakashi's friend at that time. He is like Shisui to Itachi. At the time it really didn't mean anything deeper than that because clearly Tobi doesn't exist until much later.
Awesome video! This is the kind of content I love watching from you! Obito and Kakashi are my favorite characters and IMO, have the best stories and character arcs in the franchise.
I like the anti-obito hints kishimoto put in there to not make it too obvious and still have some doubt in the community. For example making Obito in the kyuubi flashback adult height when he should be still a kid or at least teen (later explained by wearing zetsu skin armor) and revealing a second sharingan under the mask in the Konan fight (get shortly after explained by Tobi having this collection of sharingans and simply replacing the izanagi one).
Imagine an alternate timeline where Tobi turns out to be Hashirama with Madara's eyes. That would have been insane. Of course this wouldn't work because Hashirama was revealed as an edo tensei in the Hiruzen Vs. Orochimaru fight but I'm talking about an alternate version of events where that isn't the case.
What I really didn't like was when Tobi was foreshadowed to be Madara. Jiraya said he thought the Kyuubi incident was caused by Madara, and then the next panel was Tobi (who was presumed to be dead at the time) looking all menacing at the top of the Madara statue in the Valley of the End. Now, there was no reason for him to be there at the time, and there was no indication Jiraya even knew that Tobi existed, so it wasn't a visual reresentation of his thoughts either. It only served to fool the audience, and I gotta say that makes no in-universe sense. Also unnecessary, since he said to Pain he was Madara a few chapters latter.
In universe it makes sense as Jiriaya would know that Tobi existed since he was spying on the Akatsuki. Nah that was to make sure he could still disguise himself as Madara.
Obito was but kakashi never mentioned that he was an uchiha even when taking sasuke to train b4 chuunin exams, does kakashi even say where he got his sharingan from?
It should be noted, that when Sasuke fought Itachi they talked about the night where the Uchiha clan was murdered. Itachi told he had a partner and we see "Obito" with long hair meeting Itachi in the forest, further implying that hes Madara (the long hair looks like Madaras) which seems not to be talked about in this video. After that scene it could have been just a "haircut".
I remember back when Sawyer7mage said Tobi was going to be a future version of Sasuke LOL now with boruto, it's not even far off. Always loved the goofy/serious Tobi, every time he talked, you would listen to him. Not to mention, he was cool AF
What a throwback, I loved sawyer7mage's naruto videos, I know he still makes one piece videos, but one piece is so meh to me compared to naruto, so it's not the same
@@VonKriger You think One Piece is meh compared to Naruto 😂😂😂 sorry but if you knew anything that's happening in One Piece right now, I don't think you would be saying that. I love Naruto but don't sleep on One Piece
About the konan fight I definitely remember people believing he was madara because the face scars made it seem like he could just be a really old person plus they showed a second sharingan making it seem as though it wouldn’t be Obito. And Obito had his whole body crushed so it’s a fair assumption that his right sharingan would have been ruined.
Tobi was 200% always Obito. I remember when he first appeared in the manga and people all saw how obvious it was. I remember hating it and saying "NO, TOO OBVIOUS, I HATE IT." But by the end of the story, I liked it because Obito is a compelling character. I remember the Danzo theory, never bought that and never bought he was Madara either.
I always thought Tobi was Obito but Kishimoto going so hard into the 'Tobi is Madara' red herring made me almost believe his ruse. I like to think that of the many things Kishimoto had planned for Shippuden, Obito and Madara being villains was part of the equation
This one is one of the more impressive feats of Kishimoto's weird writing style. He set up the most obvious plot twist of all time and somehow managed to convince most of us that it wasn't true. Similarity in the names Tobi/Obito, having inverse MS from Kakashi (who has Obito's eye), seemingly only having 1 eye and fake half of his body. It feels insanely obvious but he just kept doubling down on the red herrings until it worked.
@@dumflame nah he didn't have everything planned out he said himself that Naruto wasn't even supposed to be that long but they kept telling him to draw more.
@@senny-One Piece fans think Oda planned every tiny detail even though he's actually just really good at expanding on things he established as a throwaway lines 500 chapters ago.
Tobi was always supposed to be Obito. Of that I have little doubt. However, if I remember correctly originally Kishimoto planned Naruto only up until ending of part 1. There is a limit to how much a long running shounen can be thought up. So I image that in original draft, Obito as a character did die in Kakashi flashback and it was only after Kishimot started planning Naruto into longer series that Obito was reused for new purpose.
I haven’t the video watched yet. But it just occurred to me a while ago that Danzo was clearly supposed to be a red herring for Toni’s identity. They have the same hairstyle, sharingan on the same side of the face, and they both have a weird manipulative connection to Nagato’s backstory. And Itachi’s backstory too.
I knew Tobi was Obito the moment he showed half his face to Sasuke just after Itachi's death. He didn't even look like Madara, whom we already saw in flashbacks. He looked like an adult Obito, I'm shocked so many people were convinced he was Madara after that.
That's always been my biggest problem with Tobi's identity. He looks exactly like Obito. First time i watched Kakashi's backstory and saw Obito. I was like "Wait a minute, he has the exact same hair as Tobi". This is why the reveal was so disappointing imo. His disguise isn't any better than team rocket from Pokemon. I used to think it's so obvious, that it had to be someone else. But no, it was just Obito.
He literally said he was a shell of his former self - meaning he got wrecked and lost a lot of power etc. So his appearance like that made sense. It's far harder to believer that Obito who WE SAW his entire side of his body crushed and then finished off with more rocks somehow survive. Which one sounds far more ridiculous?
I feel kishi just had Obito as an idea for a while since we saw a small scene when kakashi first saw him. It wasn't a surprise to me that it was Obito like most people as I like seeing through panels and theorized a lot for bleach Naruto and one piece back in the day.
@@Kyonari a couple things. I knew Luffy wouldn't be able to beat or even touch kaido by people kept saying he was yonko level with gear 4th. Then we saw kaido one shot Luffy and that proved my point. Another one was x drake being a marine even after becoming a pirate as it was easy to tell with how much he resented his father Kaido fish fruit as the koi symbolism was in our face in the start of wano. It's honestly not even theories at some point it's just facts that people tend to ignore as it's a shounen story and how I actually know japanese lores and legends that almost every manga just use. I mean Naruto bleach and one piece do this a lot
@@Kyonari I mean do people not know the fish symbolism? Pokemon has that with magikarp for many years and stats it Mutiple times. Kaido was just that with his dragon fruit and we saw the falls too. Most shounen stories would be easy to predict just seeing the same 4 legends Japan uses for everything with rajjin and such as it's easy to see where they get inspiration from.
I think Kishi had a loose back story for kalashi with how his team died and how minato was his teacher. So I think he left himself plenty of open doors to develop characters into what they became. For instance, I think kishi knew kakashi’s teammate and best friend would be an uchiha and that’s whose eye he has. But he left himself enough room for obito to grow into someone who didn’t die, have the real madara as his mentor, amd that he was the leader of the akatski.
I really wish Kagami was Tobi, he was the student of TOBIrama and his son Shisui was pretty much the first Uchiha to side with the leaf over his own clan
I’d disagree, it’s too important since it’s the very foundation of his philosophy. Itachi chose the leaf because he understood what a village is and why it is more important than the needs of the clan. Itachi understood the village action and despised his own clan for letting their frustration blind them from what matters which is that children never have to live war again. That was painted in the very beginning of his story when he was 4 years old and his dad took him to a battlefield. At a young age he understood the fist of war and understood the need for sacrifice in order to keep the rest safe. Remember when he was in the academy and first met Danzo and the latter asked him if you have a team of 10 men but one of them is sick and dying. You can’t help him and he can spread the disease to others, what do you do? Itachi answered with no hesitation you must kill the sick man and protect the 9 others. Subtle foreshadowing for what he would end up doing. You ever wandered why Itachi never seemed retribution towards danzo fir shisui’s death, because when he asked him about it he said straight up their plan would only work to delay a coup and the eye was better served in his position. He wasn’t wrong about the first thing and itachi new that. After the genocide the last interaction he has with danzo is threatening to leak all the village secrets if he does anything to Sasuke
@@dreammaker9642 Nah, you're trying to apply in-universe arguments. Itachi in the first half of the series was straight-up evil and the genjutsu he applied on Sasuke while taunting him were very obvious. The same goes for his attempts to capture Naruto. Sasuke and Jiraiya showing up were not a part of his plans. It is okay to admit that your favorite mangaka made retcons and writing mistakes. Itachi being good, in hindsight, was a mistake.
@@kevintanza6968 perhaps you didn’t pay as close attention to detail as you think. Perhaps there’s some parts you’d like to rewatch or read. Cause further down the manga you usually explained a lot of things but it’s an old one so you might not remember or little kid you didn’t understand certain things at the time. It’s been over 20 years so who cares now. Just saying there’s a reason why Pain waited for Itachi to die and I can argue that Itachi’s motive was never to get Naruto but to go traumatize his little brother some more which he later before dying for good admitted was the wrong choice.
I agree with everything but Tobi causing the nine tailed fox is definitely a retcon. Remember in Naruto part 1, prior to the concept of jinchurikis (another retcon) they described the nine tailed fox as a force of nature that appears randomly through out time. Meaning the concept of the jinchuriki wasn't a thing back then, so Obito's motive and plan to steal the nine tailed fox from kushina also wasnt a thing
I can see that, though you could argue this was a misdirect from thr beginning, as it was established in part 1 that the Uchihas could control the 9 tails with the Sharingan.
@@DygoKnight Valid, I just doubt that Kishomoto from the first episode, knew that obito would be the one to cause the nine tailed attack. I'll grant you that Obito was always planned (i.e kakashis eye, and the mark, and him always going to the grave) I feel like the whole Obito caused the nine tailed attack definitely came later as the story progressed. At shippudden, when we sort of find out that Obito is that master mind behind all this shit, I think thats probably when Kishimoto decided to make him the cause of the attack. And like you said it just makes for a better story with Minatos connection to Obito and all.
I'm not saying it wasn't planned, but I don't think it makes much sense for Obito to be Tobi. Why help exterminate the Uchiha? Why release the Nine Tails on Konoha when his objective was to keep it? It would make sense if it was Madara, because it would be for revenge, but the closest I got to an answer online was that he wanted other people to suffer. That's Nagato's ideal, not his. He wanted to end all suffering.
Obito was indifferent to suffering of others in the real world. He wasn't actively malicious or sadistic most of the time (he did have a justified vendetta against kirigakure after all and I bet he hated all of their shinobi) but he didn't care if others died since, in his logic, he was going to "resurrect" them in the genjutsu world anyway. Keep in mind he was only 14 when he attacked konoha and it was stated that the bijuu had to be sealed in order, so there wasn't even a reason to collect Kurama early. He was probably acting on emotions and wanted to get rid of his past by destroying the village. He calmed down as an adult and put more thought behind his plans.
@@_Seru_ I totally agree here, I think this is Kishimoto showing the extent of lost love turning to hatred and how it can warp the mind of an Uchiha especially a young one. Almost every Uchiha has done something extremely questionable and I think there is a clear reason for that happening time and time again.
@@_Seru_ a lot of what you're saying is after the fact of information you know now. So it just wouldn't make sense to come to these conclusions with the info we had then. Most ppl wanted it to be him simply because they liked the character. The Obito that attacked Konoha looked like an adult making it even more nonsensical at the time.
Before Tobi was revealed to be Obito, I always thought it was simply some sort of the ACTUAL body Madara, that simply took Obito's Sharingan and was doing its own thing. I honesty always dismissed the idea of it actually being Obito himself.
Actually the Japanese community thought it was the second Hokage Tobirama himself. Why? Back then, a lot of people were suspicious that the person who made the reanimation jutsu could be revived so callously with no failsafe or has actual morals. In the end we got Danzo instead for a "dark hokage" who believes he is fullfilling the seconds's role. This stand-in for Tobirama actually has prosthetic sharingans too.
I remember the big theory back in the day was that the Akatsuki leader was the Fourth Hokage. But even when I was in middle school everyone joked about how Tobi was Obito
@@ohhellwhereami2574 I'm from Latin America and from that era (I'm 29 years old) and I can confirm that. There were a lot of theories, such as Minato being Pain and that Obito and Danzo were Tobi (not both at the same time but rather one of them).
I think one of the biggest issues is how a young Obito was able to tame the nine tails, invade the leaf and confront the 4th hokage. And then going on to control the Mizukage, recruit Kisame and found the Atkatsuki. This was one of the biggest complaints I remember people having about Tobi being Obito. Obito had to be a completely different level of genius to achieve all this, beyond Sasuke, Itachi and possibly Madara levels
I thought it was a random Uchiha, because his eye was “crushed“lol. So for it to be Obito seemed like a reach, plus half his body was crushed and that was before we knew he was part Zetsu. He also had wrinkles lol. And I never do use the hair as evidence because a lot of characters have that hairdo lol. My friends played the storm games and said that it was open tokens. They had similar move sets, and then I saw I was like oh yeah, I can see that, and then I was convinced after I saw Zetsu body. Although to me, it definitely seemed more like old man wrinkles than disfiguration.
I remember I doubted Obito being Tobi because he would have been like 14yo when Naruto was born and I couldn't image him controling kurama and fighting Minato when he was still a kid
@@ohhellwhereami2574 ?? Short height? He looked like an adult and the premise was that if he was madara he was a shell of his former self - meaning he sustained damage so the mask made sense.
Danzo. Tobi was originally Danzo. He is Ninja CIA and created his own terrorist organization to undermine other countries while also creating panic that would necessitate Root's absolute control of the Leaf with him as the leader. He is the driving force behind the Uchiha Massacre and so much of the setting. He had access to Orochimaru and Itachi and even has the right physical markers for Tobi. Additionally, the nickname of the historical Danzo was "Flying Tobi". But then everything had to be Uchiha nonsense.
Heated debate back in day regarding the reveal most people were dead set thinking Tobi was Izumi or random an Uchica. While people on Obito side were not taking seriously or were downplayed told how they were wrong. Main argument for not being Obito that it was too obvious for Kishimoto do that he was better than that (Naruto was still pretty much critic proof back). then)
Back then, after Kakashi Gaiden manga was release, fans were already speculating that Tobi is actually “Obito” because his name goes full circle if you repeat it twice [T(obiTo)bi] and the fact that Tobi’s character design mask has his Sharingan on the right side and Kakashi on his left. Minato being Naruto’s father wasn’t hard to guess as well since Naruto has his father’s hair color and eyes.
The fact that it's even a debate is weird. Tobi was designed specifically with a mask on that only showed used the one eye Obito would have, as well as having a spiralling pattern that emulates the sharingan in a way. Plus there's a scene of him using his Obito voice, not his Madara voice, all the way during the three tails fight with deidara. Edit: yeah he pointed it out.
In the same chapter where Obito tells Sasuke of his story as “Madara”, we see both Obito partially unmasked and shots of Madara’s face. Even back then, Kishimoto drew their eyes completely different from each other. That and the weird way he always drew Obito’s “wrinkles”, unlike any other old character in Naruto. + the fact that Zetsu continues to address him as “Tobi”, keeping the mask on, being very vague about his identity. There is no retcon, it was always planned lol
@@hyypio764 i checked that chapter again, Kisame was doubting Tobi's reveal, so he told Tobi to prove it. as Tobi was about to, Kisame bit himself to stop the ninja probing his mind from probing any further, and his memory cut off right about then. we saw two more panels after Kisame cut his own tongue, the first being Tobi's reveal of the moon plan (forgot the name), and the second is Kisame smirking, reacting to that plan. it was never shown that Kisame was convinced Tobi was Madara. and we can't tell much from just his smirk, because it could either be "this Madara guy is nuts, can't wait to see the utter chaos this will turn out to be" or "hmph, masquerading as Madara and trying to achieve this plan... he's a nutcase, but this revelation is interesting"
My only real problem with the story before the Black Zetsu/Kaguya incident is Obito acting all goofy until Itachi's death. It's ridiculous for the character and you can't even justify it because Itachi already knew the masked man was "Madara", he even helped him assassinate the Uchiha clan, so what's the point of faking out even to the other Akatsuki members? Nagato and Konan knew he was "Madara", what must they have thought when goofy Tobi replaced Sasori? And Kisame also knew, yet he doesn't connect Orange Mask Tobi with Yellow Mask Mizukage Madara until Obito shows him his face. "Oh, so it was you, Madara Uchiha, the Bloody Mist Mizukage... That idiot who was behaving like a child for comic relief alongside Deidara" Hahah... Can you imagine White Mask Obito or Unmasked Obito, or even Edo Madara, going "Deidara Senpaaaaiii!"? I wish Obito had any kind of interaction with Edo Deidara in the War Arc. "Oh, Tobi? You're serious now?"
That's why I like the idea that the goofy Tobi was actually Guruguru. But sadly for this headcanon to even work one needs to believe that that Tobi who halted Team Kakashi + Yamato during Sasuke and Itachi's fight was Obito wearing Guruguru, and that seems like a strech. Why even have Guruguru? Obito wasn't weakened or wounded to use him like a suit. Now tbf when he first made contact with Nagato, Yahiko and Konan he did so using Guruguru, but there was no reason for doing it except perhaps to appear a little taller (as he was still a kid) and because he didn't have a mask. Orange Mask Obito would have no reason to wear Guruguru as he was already an adult capable of passing as a random Akatsuki member and then as Madara. The problem persists that there wasn't even a reason for him to act differently. Itachi even programmed an Amaterasu in Sasuke's eye for him, so he wasn't fooling anyone relevant.
Also when they first showed Kakashi's flashback in the manga, young Obito was extremely similar to Naruto. This was a cool detail because it not only allowed Kakashi to grow and try to overcome his grief but also Obito was a good indication of how Naruto could have turned out, especially with the way the village treated him. Nothing too crazy but a cool detail that I think also shows that Obito was always a part of the plan
No way this was a retcon. It was a blatant set up. We finish part 1 of Naruto, then we do the Kakashi Gaiden which introduces us to Obito. Then in the very first Arc of Shippuden we get introduced to a mystery character with the same haircut as Obito and has a mask with a singular eye hole on the eye that would still be around. People theorized Tobi was Obito from second number one after his reveal. I use to argue against the theory so badly because it just seemed TOO obvious. Like if Tobi would have been revealed with a different mask and hairstyle at first it would have been an actual disguise. I like to call this a reverse red herring. Where the writer makes the twist so obvious, but it is actually the twist and not a distraction.
That just felt like giving us something to enjoy and a backstory on kakashi showing us how he got his sharingan. It didn't feel like it was pointing to anything. Obito being alive just didn't make sense at the time for a variety of reasons. Tobi wasn't even introduced early on so it's not like it felt connected at all. Ppl just liked obito and wanted him to still be around so with the eye hole and the hair they went all in. Only later would evidence making it plausible appear.
It was clear since his first appearance that was Obito, I remember in forum discussions at the time theories about being Shisui or Fugaku, but we were on denial because Obito was such a good character, and we didnt want this character to ended like this
I never thought Tobi was retconned to be Obito. But i did always think it kinda dumb that every event of the series was secretly Obito. kinda like the Aizen asspull in Bleach where everything was "according to his plan". I dont think Obito should have been behind the 9 tails attack. i dont think the 9 tails should have killed Minato and Kushina, at least not in that way. That whole even just felt forced to me, with the sealing their chakra for later stuff and whatnot.
I’ll always remember when the obito vs Konan chapter came out. I saw half of his mask taken off. So I grabbed my volume 27. Put the panel of obito crushed right next to the panel of tobi with half his mask blown off…and it was the same. I was shook
Who here thought Tobi was Danzo back in the day? Despite all the clues hinting he was Obito, I heard that theory a lot up until Danzo and Sasuke fought.
Another thing that made it so obvious aside from the whole Tobi/Obito naming is that: >Obito lost an eye >An eye resembles in shape a O Seriously don't get the naysayers being in denial over it being him. As a Naruto fan have to say was glad when proved right about it plus NaruHina being end game and not NaruSaku lol.
People had assumed Obito was Tobi from the very beginning for the same reasons you said (same hair / alternate eyehole to Kakashi). It was so obvious people wanted to think it was deeper than what it was. At the time, people assumed it may have been Tobirama (somehow) or Danzo since he also had the same hair and an eyepatch over his left eye. As it turns out, I think Kishimoto realized he was way too obvious which was why Itachi mentions working with Madara to wipe out the Uchiha and the Minato flashback is of the masked man calling himself Madara. We later see Tobi with long hair like Madara as another way to make it a bit of a red herring, actually getting a lot of people by that point. It's also interesting since, if you look at the cover art for ch.16, Kakashi's blanket literally has the mangekyo sharingan pattern on it, which definitely implies Kishi had at least a rough idea what he wanted pretty early on
Obito:what should I call myself Madara? Madara: well you are male so the O should be removed. Then let's scramble your name as bito is stupid.....I got it. Tobi Obito:......
I'm one of those, who hated the twist with Obito being the villain and being alive all along. Tobi was just some wacky guy for me, bringing in some needed comic relief in akatsuki antics or something. There is no way Obito survived those rocks by slipping through the ground. There is no way that labil, sensitive boy would someday go off and murder his former master. And for what? For some stupid mass illusion?! It must have been a retcon, I thought. It had to be something Kishimoto came up with later, after having written himself in a corner or something. But ... damn, I guess you're right. Good plea. And good video.
Bruh there's so many reasons why it didn't make sense but somehow it turned out that way. It still worked so in the end I gritted my way through it. The level of contrivances required to make it work was amazing. - We literally hear him say 'I can't even feel my sides' [crushed by rocks] so his sharingan being okay would be out of the question. - He'd have to conveniently happen to be by Madara's hideout - Before knowing he was influenced by Madara him being able to fight high level jonin and the 4th is insane - His entire attack on Konoha and controlling the kyubi. - The scene with him and kakashi while important seemed like a closing off of his character imparting his eye and an ideal onto kakashi. Before getting further information none of these things would make sense. The only thing that ppl claimed was his name pun and hair cut which if it was madara and he was a shell of his former self, it made sense.
I wanted Tobi to be Izuna because we were only told that he died and it made sense for him to know about the wars between Senju and Uchiha since he was there when it went down
What about Uchiha Kagami? It was never told to us How he died, or even If he died his death was never confirmed, so to me he would be a great choice to be Tobi If he wasnt Obito all long, but lorewise It was always supposed to be Obito.
Fun fact: there were actually a few seconds of shots showing kakashi's team in the anime during og Naruto. It's pretty easy to forget since it didn't hold very much importance back then.
Kinda off topic but it almost feels like the relationship between Minato and Kakashi was a retcon. How come you basically ignore the son of your master till he is like 12 and you're told by your boss to look after him? Then in the begining of Shippuden Kakashi and Naruto start to develop some sort of connection that just wasn't there during part one. "Kakashi was cold hearted and wanted to keep him away" then why was he so close to Sasuke? In one of the novels if im not mistaken it was stated that he was like that to Sasuke cause he felt like the Uchiha massacre was his fault since he was Itachi's leader in the anbu. I just don't see how you can have basically the same type of relationship with 2 characters yet not be there at all for one till the other leaves. Jiraiya has somewhat of a case for doing nothing for Naruto, not that strong of a case imo.
You could have at least addressed some points that go against him originally being Obito. Like how he had already reached his full height as an early teen during the Nine Tails Attack and had become skilled enough to control Kurama and fight Minato. Or how Obito having just a regular MS creates the problem of him never going blind from Kamui. Or how Kisame is somehow convinced Obito is Madara after seeing his face, despite Obito looking nothing like him and Madara's face being publicly known. Or how Tobi after the Pain arc reflects that the Rinne Tensei was supposed to be used on him.
the height part can be disputed since boys are known to have a very quick and unexpected growth spurt. as for Kisame, he is established to be a ninja that is very cautious with intel, to the point of killing himself to keep the information safe. Kisame's reaction seeing Obito revealing his face could just be interpreted "ahh... so you're NOT the legendary madara, this is interesting" because he didn't really react much, it could be interpreted as such. and since he's cautious with his intel, he doesn't go around and tell people his discovery. for the Pain part, i don't remember this happening, because I'm pretty sure it was Madara in Endo tensei form and not Obito making a remark in the middle of the war that Nagato was supposed to revive him with Rinne tensei. i don't think Obito ever told Pain to use Rinne tensei on Madara
@@phuongbach3864 Nah, since Kisame literally refers to Tobi as Madara after seeing his face again after Itachi's death. The scene where Obito says he wanted Nagato to use the Rinne Tensei on him is right after the Pain arc.
I remember when Naruto was big in like 2007 and we didn’t really know any of these details yet, there was a theory about Tobi being Obito because of the similarity of their names and the fact that only his left eye was visible behind the mask (since Kakashi had his right eye). Those hints were there even back then
I think some people, including me, feel the Obito parts of the story are a bit awkward. Some people might try to explain it by it being another retcon. Really I think it’s a consequence of Kishimoto writing so fast that it all feels awkward.
I think this is the true answer. Kishi wrote himself in a corner where Tobi couldn't be either Madara or Obito. Reasons why he can't be Obito: - Magically reached adult proportions and power to control Kurama (something Jiraya thinks only Madara could do) as an early teen - Convinced Kisame he was Madara by showing him his face - Said he was supposed to be revived via Rinne Tensei - Him having the same eye as Kakashi would mean he'd have to go blind Reasons why he can't be Madara: - Kept hiding his face even after revealing that he's Madara - If he's able to still wield the Rinnegan as seen in the War arc, why give it to Nagato in the first place? - Why does Zetsu still call him Tobi while the two are in private?
Honestly i feel itd be better if it was hinted at who/what Tobi was soon after it was shown he and Madara were different people. Maybe have Madara say something vague n ominous; maybe along the lines of "That man is my shadow. My disciple. I saved him from the brink of death 20 years ago, and he repaid the favor by keeping my legacy alive while I was gone."
Honestly, one of the most interesting theories was tobi being Indra. The mask motif was the same swirl as Indra’s ms. Plus with how important the sage of the six paths was set up to be. His bitter son have managed to somehow survive almost a millennium but as a shell of his former self made sense. And in the flashback when he attacked konoha, the nine tails recognized him as if he knew him. He would have taught madara how to summon the nine tails and later do it himself in attacking konoha.
It's obvious that Obito was always a part of the story because Kakashi's scar and sharingan requires a backstory. But I also think that kishimoto made tobi as a masked man because he wanted flexibility until he wanted to decide who it was going to be. He had two main ways of doing it, either it's Obito, or it's Madara with Obito's eye. The latter could've worked if he decided that whatever happened with madara after the valley of the end fight helped him live for longer and he got Obito's eye like how he got him out of the rubble in the final story. I'm sure he went back and forth in his mind, but I think he finally decided during the summit arc as he was setting up the war arc and coming up with the tsuki no me plan. This is speculation of course, but as he was building the lore and backstory behind the ten tails and hagoromo probably near the tail end of the pain arc he came up with the backstory he presented during the summit arc and decided that the rinnegan were madara's eyes. But as he set up the war arc and the resolution to Kabuto's character and had the idea of the edo tensei army he decided in final that Tobi was going to be Obito and Madara was going to come back as a reanimation. And then during the arc as the "the last" movie project started being concepted he came up with the otsutsuki lore and turned hagoromo into an alien and gave him a brother because it had already had been established that the ten tails turned into the moon before so there was a connection to the princess kaguya folk tale that he could do. Then as the boruto movie project started being concepted a few years before the end of the series he turned the otsutsuki from moon people into interdimensional aliens.
It was very obvious that Obito was Tobi, but the bigger theory was his motive and when Tobi "revealed" himself to be Madara, there was a theory that Madara somehow possessed Obitos body.
A very subtle connection to Obito is seen in Tobi's conversation with Zetsu after recruiting Sasuke. Tobi acknowledges how the deceased members of the Akatsuki "made a contribution in their own ways" and they "would not have gotten this far without them". Most villainous leaders usually disregard their fallen cohorts after their demise, but Tobi acknowledges their power/worth which falls in line with Obito's philosophy.
Kakashi had one sharingan and wasnt an uchiha its pretty safe to assume kishimoto had thought that through when making kakashis character... He however probably didnt think of doing a plot twist and bringing him back until shippuden or giving obito and kakashi their flashback or else we probably would have seen MS much earlier from kakashi
I just want to add that in the Minato v tobi fight, he was already using the phasing through suff, as well with deidera vs Sasuke, which is the explanation given for how he survived the cave collapse.
When Tobi's mask breaks against Konan, we see a second Sharingan. I couldn't help but feel like I was lied to. As if people would assume that somehow Obito could just acquire another incredibly rare eye. It'd be perfectly acceptable to rule out both Obito and Shisui for that reason. It's almost like they thought about this and came up with some convoluted bollucks to explain it away after the fact.
Who did you think Tobi was back in the day?
Just some weird Kid
Izuna
Obito
Joe Mama
Tobi
People were drawing fanart about Tobi being Obito before we were told he was “Madara”. The signs were all clearly there. People just really fell for an obvious Red Herring (why would Tobi still wear a mask after telling the entire world his “secret identity”?).
It was extremely obvious from the moment Obito was introduced in kajashi gaiden
@@flygonkerel781 - That's the thing that made me doubt at times, it was *so* obvious than I kept looking for other options...
I got into Naruto relatively late, like right before the 3rd Ninja War started (when I caught up, the latest chapter was literally Tobi marching to war)...
So the community had a long time to speculate, and I didn't have to wait too long to find out for real.
And by that time, we had been given even more indications that he was Obito (the stuff he told Kakashi when they encountered), but there were still a lot of questions.
I still remember when it was finally confirmed, when the shot of Naruto breaking Tobi's mask switched to a picture of kid Obito, and the spoiler was EVERYWHERE if you didn't read the raw as soon as it was online.
That was some *OMG SNAPE KILLS DUMBLEDORE!!§§* level of spoiler, (even if suddenly no one had any doubts ever that Obito was a massive red herring)
@@randallflagg3700 i was active on mangaspoilers ~13 years ago and i'd say most people thought it's Obito. There were some lengthy posts about why it can't be Obito (he should've died under the rock, organs smashed etc), but nobody had a good answer to who he was. Though i was also in the camp of people that thought Obito should be dead until he talked to Kakashi during the war.
@@Faude18 - Indeed. There was a small clan of "well duh it's Madara", but they weren't that many.
Something that threw the Obito gang was also the Kisame flashback when Tobi, hidden in the shadows, revealed himself to him claiming to be Madara...
Kisame says that Madara is dead, and to show himself to prove who he is.
Tobi starts walking toward him, saying something like "alright, let's see if you trust me..." and right when Kisame sees his face, he bites his tongue to get out of the flashback, and then kills himself.
Coupled with the scene in which Tobi approches Kisame while they were alone, and after taking his mask off, Kisame says "Well that's surprising, I never would have expected that you were Tobi... with you pulling the strings, it will be easier for me to do my job"
That was a big "good job explaining that, Obitofags" in the community
(I mean I wasn't really "in" the community like I was for Berserk, Vinland Saga, Kingdom, Dragon Ball or Vagabond, but I still knew the big topics of discussion for Naruto)
Even if after "revealing" himself to be madara did change some people's theories back then, Kabuto showing Tobi the "other" coffin as a form of blackmail without us seeing who was in it definitely confirmed he wasn't Madara since it was heavily implied that's who was in that coffin
There's actually something that I've been thinking of a lot. During the fight between Minato and Obito, there's a moment when Minato asks him if he is Madara Uchiha. And right after that Obito takes off his hood showing his hair, like deep inside he wants Minato to recognize him. And then Minato just says that it doesn't matter how he is.
obito even calls him out for it too saying that despite minato being his teacher he couldn't recognize him at all with minato starting to doubt his decisions in life question that if he'd have know it was obito from the start he might have been able to stop him before sealing the Nine tails
@@lightyoshiman For me that was a plot hole, Minato was an insane sensor type, there is absolutely no way he would not sense it was Obito.
@@peplegal32 true
@@peplegal32 but at that point, not only is Obito supposed to be dead but he has Hashirama cells/chakra so his chakra signature would be different. Add onto that that Obito was nowhere near that powerful before and I don't see why even a sensory ninja would assume it's him
@@peplegal32 use your brain
"He was crushed by A rock. Who in Shounen dies being crushed by things?"
*Cries in Cesar*
SHIIIIIIIIIIZAAAAAAAAA!!!!
Jojo reference 😏
Didn't wheelchair joestar die to a rock too? Lmfao
@@smithmichael8144 Okay I didn't realize his death is a callback to Part 2 until now
@@smithmichael8144 his name is jhonny ffs
1:19 "A ninja that doesn't follow the rules is cum. But a ninja who abandons his friends is worse than scum" Goddamn, Kakashi!
Cum 💀
@@kodoqbesar4301 it's what I hear xD
@@KiddDaPhoenix - I totally heard that too. C00mbrain confirmed.
Guess they dont follow the rules cause they're horny
I rather be be cum. 😂
An early hint in Shippuden was where Kakashi Kamui’s away Deidera’s arm and then Tobi is the one who ‘finds it’ and gives it back to him.
Never even thought of that..
What what chapter ? That is insane, i did not catch it.
@@aytaf5430 I'm not sure if it was in the Manga, but it was in the Anime right at the end of the Kazekaga rescue mission. And we find out that deidera is still alive and Tobi gives him back his arm.
There's also the fact that in hindsight their abilities are related. Kakashi creates a black hole to the Kamui, using the portals offensively while Obito uses his defensively in phasing and teleportation, but they ultimately are applications of the same ability because they're both Obito's eyes. Even Kakashi learns to use his Kamui defensively by sucking projectiles into the dimension. And when Obito teleports it looks like Kakashi's ability used on himself. And Kakashi reveals his mangekyo just before Tobi reveals himself.
Oh yeah damn
The moment I saw Zetsu and Tobi together I started theorizing that perhaps the body of Tobi was Obito, but Madara was implanted into his body, and that's why he was introducing himself as Madara. And that him acting all goofy and silly was the Obito personality remnants leaking out. And that'd it all conclude in Obito waking up and trying to peel Madara off his body. I was like "What if Zetsu was a first attempt of combining two different bodies into a same one, and to make Madara survive and grow stronger they used Obito's body).
It wasn't exactly that but still, I was onto something with all my crazy teen years old ramblings!
Honestly, I would've perfered this instead. That one damn good theory.
Or even Madara simply having the first chance to act like a child in his lifetime and seizing the opportunity when no one will know it's him.
If you would’ve explained that to me years ago, I would’ve no doubt believed you
I thought a similar way. Obito was the most obvious but if it’s not him, then I thought that it could be Madara that stole Obito’s body or something. There’s no way that Obito wasn’t involved in whoever “Tobi” was.
I thought the exact same thing!!
An interesting parallel that very early cemented tobis connection to Kakashi, even without outright telling, is that kakashi face is both the same and opposite of tobis. Both are completely masked only showing their one eye for 90% of the time and both only show the right eye. But the contrast is where the connection shine. Kakashi sees with his normal eye, tobi sees with his sharingan. Kakashis mask is dark blue, or black, and tobis is orange or white. Tobis hair is black and Kakashis is white.
😮😮😮
One retcon I didn’t get about Obito is how Kamui works, originally Obito couldn’t attack and Kamui at the same Time, he wold literally be intangible until he wanted to attack but later on we learn that Obito is actually only using Kamui on the parts of his body being attacked which means that he should be able to attack and Kamui at the same time. Also when he fights Konan she says that Obito can’t faze for more than 5 minutes and that turns out to be true because Obito has to use izanagi to escape, but later on we learn that he can essentially stay in the Kamui dimension indefinitely, also I’m pretty sure we see Obito teleport but Konan says that he can’t
My though exatcly, I guess Kishimoto wanted Obito's opponent to stand a chance so invented some fuzzy weaknesses.
@@rialyandriamiseza9814 The worst part of that is how Obito never decided to simply get his other eye back despite the fact that it'd be logical to do so and he definitely didn't care about Kakashi at that time. He'd be too much to handle with his DMS and Hashirama cells.
I think the teleportation of his actual body to and from the Kamui dimension is distinct from the ability to shift specific body parts to the Kamui dimension to avoid interaction/damage; it is the latter that has a 5 min time limit, but the former actually makes use of the barrier created by distal Kamui to send Obito’s own body to the Kamui dimension. The “defensive Kamui” has a time limit; the “teleport Kamui” does not.
I always thought he could teleport short distances since he has the short distance Kamui. As for the time limit, that's a little more confusing. Either she was just wrong, or Obito purposely only stayed in the Kamui dimension to set up an expectation that he could subvert mid-battle. In the end, if not for izanagi, Konan probably would have killed him regardless of the time limit. He'd have to come out eventually, whether it be to 600 billion bombs or the bottom of a lake he'd have to get out of.
@@Ntimidation separating it into two abilities would explain it but that would imply that you can have 2 ms abilities in one eye, which I guess is technically true because Sauske but that’s different lol
My main problem with Obito was never his mere existence as the masked man. That much was believable enough. My problem is that he can be anywhere at any time, and has an attack that instakills anybody slower than Minato, which is everybody. He could have just captured all nine tailed beasts on his own, gotten the rinnegan on his own, and accomplished the eye of the moon plan on his own. Kamui is way too powerful. For example, he could have gone back to the leaf village the day after Minato's death and kidnapped Naruto. There's absolutely nobody who could have stopped him. He can stand completely still and win most fights.
he had to get a bunch of shinobi in one place at one time for the divine tree. the tree feeds off the shinobis chakra to survive. the war was the best way to get all of them in one place for the tree to sprout
@@timhardaway6501 Or, hear me out. He could have just used like, 4 kage level shinobi as chakra batteries. Naruto alone can give every allied shinobi 3 times Kakashi's chakra and keep fighting like nothing ever happened. He could also just become the jinchuriki of the ten tails, and pull off the plan without the tree. Which was his original plan anyway. Finally, he could have declared war after ensuring that it was impossible for the enemy villages to win. Like after killing all 5 kage, already being in possession of all 9 tailed beasts, and having reacquired his other sharingan from Kakashi. No matter how you look at it, Obito's version of this plan is the worst possible version once you consider the fact that he can be anywhere he wants via teleportation, and can one shot anybody slower than Minato. Dude could just use the Akatsuki members as fuel for the tree instead of recruiting them, lol.
@@ClashBluelight i agree. only thing i can say is maybe morally he was holding back and wanted to give the shinobi a chance considering deep down he didn’t want to do it. other than that i don’t know
@@timhardaway6501 But deep down, he did want to do it. He was only convinced against the idea by Naruto. And Naruto didn't make some appeal to Obito's inner self, he just won the debate.
Nah he just lazy
Another massive hint that feels like it should have given it away in hindsight: Kakashi's MS ability is Kamui, which he uses to make objects disappear with a spiral pattern. We then later see Tobi making himself disappear and appear with a very similar spiral pattern. When you take into consideration that both eyes often form a synchronous set, (For example, Sasuke gaining Amaterasu in one eye and Flame Control in the other) and Kakashi and Tobi both have the opposite eye on their faces, it starts to click together very quickly that Kakashi's eye is part of the set that goes with Tobi's to make a pair, and therefore points towards Obito as Tobi's identity since it's him who gave Kakashi his eye.
I personally think "Tobi being Obito who was Kakashi's childhood friend" was always planned BUT it's everything around it that was changed.
ie: Kakashi's role in the story, Madara being more of a mythical title, Obito's motivation,...
It's obvious that Kishimoto changed the trajectory of the story and world multiple times while writing them.
No
@@LuhTwizzy__ why?
i agree. i heard somewhere that originally kishimoto planned to end the series around the end of part 1. If that was the case obito being alive and being the main villain doesnt make a lot of sense. I think obito being kakashis dead friend and giving kakashi his eye was decided as early as kakashi himself. but him being alive, controlling the akatsuki and releasing kurama seems like later aditions, around the end of part 1 and the start of obito flashback. earliest i can see this being the case is the introduction of akatsuki but thats probably the earliest point i think it can be.
@@efecaktl5432That's entirely false there was definitely always going to be a part 2
@@thelegendarymarioman8461 yeah ofc a unknown series from 1999 is definitely gonna have a 600 chapter sequel no it wasn’t that’s not how this works. One piece was supposed to end in 5 years but then it got popular. Naruto probably had a similar path like are parts planned from the beginning yeah but shot changes cus jump wants it too. Like Kayuga legit only exists because they wanted another sequel to Naruto to make money. Like I enjoy reading stories but you can’t remove reality from how thee are written
Looking back on it now, I definitely feel like the Tobi is Obito reveal was the previous generations version of the Dabi is Toya Todoroki twist. Personally for myself and my cousin, we figured it out pretty early on and just wanted to see how it plays out. And yeah, the reveal in the War arc lived up to the hype
For a while, I bought into the lie that Tobi was Madara. But then I noticed that, even after the "reveal", he never removed the mask. If we already knew that he was "Madara", why was he still wearing a mask?
I knew that Tobi was Obito already since the Five Kages' Summit.
Yeah. He made the same exact point in this video.
It was already obvious he was not madara when sasuke blinded him and he lost his mask, he looked nothing like the madara itachi showed sasuke in that flashback before they fought.
@@justinarzola4584 Nah, I don’t think that sealed it. It’s been decades, man. He’s not going to look the same as in those flashbacks. If you are referring to being able to see the scars, you have to remember how old Madara would have been at that point in the story if he was alive. We have no idea how he’s aged, what damage he took in his fight against Hashirama, or the battle scars he accumulated between then and now.
What he told kakashi at the 5 kage summit - that made me actual think it was Obito, everything else was hearsay and a long reach. When he said his jutsu would not work then I was like okay it's either him or he has his ability somehow.
You forget that Tobi = Danzo was an extremely popular theory. I remember debating with people back on an old blog site weareawesomeness about it. No one though he was Madara there, and I think there was maybe one guy that thought it was Shisui.
The big tell for me was when I first saw Tobi teleporting. It looked a lot like kamui. The issue was that Tobi is shown using kamui several times woth a regular sharingan. Ot made it difficult to say with certainty that it was Obito.
The argument was that Danzo could have gotten it during the Uchiha massacre, or even before that. Tobi's fight with Minato also gave people the impression that Obito would have been too young and weak to fight Minato to that extent. This gave a lot of creditability to the Danzo, given the always bandaged arm and covered right eye. I always had to point out that it was the left arm that fell off against Minato, but I will admit that I was almost convinced several times and everyone was basically guessing between Danzo and Obito until the Kage Summit. Its not as if there hadn't been plotholes in manga panels before, and it gave us plenty to talk about.
I can't remember if it was on iareawesomeness (original blog) or weareawesomeness, but there was a hilarious fanfiction that assumed Tobi was Obito, but also possessed by the ghost of Patrick Swayze. It was called the Swayzegan and it involved a lot of roundhouse kicking.
Yesss this is exactly the theory I remember, Danzo being Tobi.
So my problem with it while I get it from a Danzo wanting to be the one in charge of the village in staging events to become as they were. Getting rid of the 4th, Uchiha discourse in having an excuse to kill them as the ones behind it all, putting blame onto Sarutobi for him to fall and for himself to rise.
The underlying problem however is that if there's one thing I do know, and I think can be widely agreed upon with him is that while he's an extremist it's all for the "protection" of the village. I just would never buy it as seems out of character like at worst he'll prevent others in saving the village like how he did with killing the messenger frog to alert Naruto to come back to the village when Pain showed up, but yeah just seems for that theory it goes against his character as too much of a show of force in harming the village on his part.
@@SonicLegends Yeah, a lot of people came around to it. I was always railing on about it being Obito, given the hair length and mannerisms of Tobi, but we didn't really ever get the full picture of who Danzo really was until the Kage Summit, which is pretty much where the theory went up in flames for obvious reasons. His motivations were quite guarded and he always came across as a schemer. I theorist speculated that Itachi had made threats against him, so he never took his chance by force.
It was a fun theory that did hold up fairly well, it just always made more sense to me that it was Obito. No one else made too much sense in my eyes. Now that we did have a clear picture of what Danzo was all about, he defintely wouldn't have done anything to discard the Leaf, and he definitely wanted to keep a tight leash on his tailed beast weapon. Good riddance to him, but definitely more interesting than a heartbroken, half-broken teen that got manipulated by Madara.
And let's be real, Madara wouldn't have gotten clowned on by Minato so easily. Even if we never saw him before, we knew how strong his legend was. His powers didn't make sense for anyone we knew of other than Obito as well.
There was once a real life legendary name Danzo Kato whose nickname was " Flying Danzō" (飛び加藤 or 鳶の段蔵, Tobi Katō or Tobi no Danzō)
Fun Fact: There was once a legendary ninja by the name of Danzo Kato who was known as "Flying Danzō" (飛び加藤 or 鳶の段蔵, Tobi Katō or Tobi no Danzō)
I feel like tobi was just a placeholder for an uchiha antagonist because he had quite the identity crisis
I know that his power makes people believe like Madara. But what makes me wonder is why didn't Onoki ask him if he recognized him (Onoki and Mu fought Madara), and if Tobi didn't recognize Onoki, then Tobi is not Madara. But I think Kishimoto sensei is keeping that part later on during the actual fight with Madara.
That's pretty redundant question, Ōnoki is Tsuchikage he's the longest serving Kage outlived all 3rd generations of Kages of 5 great hidden village, all capable Shinobi definitely know his face, they don't live in stone age they have cameras and tv.
@@madmanmadlad2876 they litrally live in stone village lol
@@maalikserebryakov 😂😂💀
@@madmanmadlad2876 they live in stone village some even live in rain village. Yes they had tv but they still live in the stonee
@@madmanmadlad2876 well Madara have him a nickname… the fence-sitter
In the chapter where Naruto and Kakashi talk about Tobi probably being Madara (455), we later see that Danzo also has sharingan in his right eye. Yes, there was a theory that Tobi was Danzo, who used Koto Amatsukami on someone else and made them believe they are the real Danzo.
I was really hoping Tobi wouldn't be Obito but some rogue ninja who was running around using his other eye and that we would see Kakashi go absolutely BALISTIC!
The identity of tobi was never a real mistery, tbh. At least for the manga readers. He was the only character that would make sense. The whole "I am madara" thing was clever, but when Kabuto showed the unknown edo tensei, the mistery was solved.
Nah at that time, that was a big fight back in the day - there was far more evidence of him being either madara, izuna or some other unknown ninja. At the time the big claims of why it was obito was literally his name and his hair. Nothing else made sense. Only later on was more evidence shown giving merit to the claim.
I saw a theory from more than a decade ago where someone drew a connection between tobi's space time ninjutsu and kakashis kamui. Which was a crazy connection to make for the time.
Obito was mentioned in part 1 already, I doubt it was for no reason. I think Kishimoto planned it for a long time and by the time Tobi was introduced, he was meant to be Obito - just playing other roles, a fool Tobi and later "Madara". Obito was also directly connected to the storyline from the very beginning through Kakashi. There was no reason for Tobi to be anyone else.
Obito was just Kakashi's friend at that time. He is like Shisui to Itachi. At the time it really didn't mean anything deeper than that because clearly Tobi doesn't exist until much later.
Awesome video! This is the kind of content I love watching from you!
Obito and Kakashi are my favorite characters and IMO, have the best stories and character arcs in the franchise.
I like the anti-obito hints kishimoto put in there to not make it too obvious and still have some doubt in the community. For example making Obito in the kyuubi flashback adult height when he should be still a kid or at least teen (later explained by wearing zetsu skin armor) and revealing a second sharingan under the mask in the Konan fight (get shortly after explained by Tobi having this collection of sharingans and simply replacing the izanagi one).
Imagine an alternate timeline where Tobi turns out to be Hashirama with Madara's eyes. That would have been insane.
Of course this wouldn't work because Hashirama was revealed as an edo tensei in the Hiruzen Vs. Orochimaru fight but I'm talking about an alternate version of events where that isn't the case.
What I really didn't like was when Tobi was foreshadowed to be Madara. Jiraya said he thought the Kyuubi incident was caused by Madara, and then the next panel was Tobi (who was presumed to be dead at the time) looking all menacing at the top of the Madara statue in the Valley of the End.
Now, there was no reason for him to be there at the time, and there was no indication Jiraya even knew that Tobi existed, so it wasn't a visual reresentation of his thoughts either. It only served to fool the audience, and I gotta say that makes no in-universe sense. Also unnecessary, since he said to Pain he was Madara a few chapters latter.
In universe it makes sense as Jiriaya would know that Tobi existed since he was spying on the Akatsuki. Nah that was to make sure he could still disguise himself as Madara.
In universe it makes sense as Tobi frequently just chills on top of his "own" head all the time lol.
When Kakashi revealed he had a sharingan, Obito was already a character.
Obito was but kakashi never mentioned that he was an uchiha even when taking sasuke to train b4 chuunin exams, does kakashi even say where he got his sharingan from?
It should be noted, that when Sasuke fought Itachi they talked about the night where the Uchiha clan was murdered. Itachi told he had a partner and we see "Obito" with long hair meeting Itachi in the forest, further implying that hes Madara (the long hair looks like Madaras) which seems not to be talked about in this video. After that scene it could have been just a "haircut".
I remember back when Sawyer7mage said Tobi was going to be a future version of Sasuke LOL now with boruto, it's not even far off. Always loved the goofy/serious Tobi, every time he talked, you would listen to him. Not to mention, he was cool AF
What a throwback, I loved sawyer7mage's naruto videos, I know he still makes one piece videos, but one piece is so meh to me compared to naruto, so it's not the same
@@VonKriger You think One Piece is meh compared to Naruto 😂😂😂 sorry but if you knew anything that's happening in One Piece right now, I don't think you would be saying that. I love Naruto but don't sleep on One Piece
About the konan fight I definitely remember people believing he was madara because the face scars made it seem like he could just be a really old person plus they showed a second sharingan making it seem as though it wouldn’t be Obito. And Obito had his whole body crushed so it’s a fair assumption that his right sharingan would have been ruined.
All these were different things why it seemed far fetched for Obito at the time.
Tobi was 200% always Obito. I remember when he first appeared in the manga and people all saw how obvious it was. I remember hating it and saying "NO, TOO OBVIOUS, I HATE IT." But by the end of the story, I liked it because Obito is a compelling character. I remember the Danzo theory, never bought that and never bought he was Madara either.
No he wasn't
I always thought Tobi was Obito but Kishimoto going so hard into the 'Tobi is Madara' red herring made me almost believe his ruse.
I like to think that of the many things Kishimoto had planned for Shippuden, Obito and Madara being villains was part of the equation
This one is one of the more impressive feats of Kishimoto's weird writing style. He set up the most obvious plot twist of all time and somehow managed to convince most of us that it wasn't true. Similarity in the names Tobi/Obito, having inverse MS from Kakashi (who has Obito's eye), seemingly only having 1 eye and fake half of his body. It feels insanely obvious but he just kept doubling down on the red herrings until it worked.
He had everything planned out… except Kaguya
@@dumflame nah he didn't have everything planned out he said himself that Naruto wasn't even supposed to be that long but they kept telling him to draw more.
@@ldariusd21 No serious famous mangaka would not have an story outline of some sort.
@@senny-One Piece fans think Oda planned every tiny detail even though he's actually just really good at expanding on things he established as a throwaway lines 500 chapters ago.
11:47 Shi-Soy...!!??
The Soylent version of Shisui 😂
(even the editor didn't catch it) 🤣
Tobi was always supposed to be Obito. Of that I have little doubt.
However, if I remember correctly originally Kishimoto planned Naruto only up until ending of part 1. There is a limit to how much a long running shounen can be thought up. So I image that in original draft, Obito as a character did die in Kakashi flashback and it was only after Kishimot started planning Naruto into longer series that Obito was reused for new purpose.
He didn't even have the first season planned.
I haven’t the video watched yet. But it just occurred to me a while ago that Danzo was clearly supposed to be a red herring for Toni’s identity. They have the same hairstyle, sharingan on the same side of the face, and they both have a weird manipulative connection to Nagato’s backstory. And Itachi’s backstory too.
I knew Tobi was Obito the moment he showed half his face to Sasuke just after Itachi's death. He didn't even look like Madara, whom we already saw in flashbacks. He looked like an adult Obito, I'm shocked so many people were convinced he was Madara after that.
That's always been my biggest problem with Tobi's identity. He looks exactly like Obito. First time i watched Kakashi's backstory and saw Obito. I was like "Wait a minute, he has the exact same hair as Tobi". This is why the reveal was so disappointing imo. His disguise isn't any better than team rocket from Pokemon. I used to think it's so obvious, that it had to be someone else. But no, it was just Obito.
He literally said he was a shell of his former self - meaning he got wrecked and lost a lot of power etc. So his appearance like that made sense. It's far harder to believer that Obito who WE SAW his entire side of his body crushed and then finished off with more rocks somehow survive. Which one sounds far more ridiculous?
I feel kishi just had Obito as an idea for a while since we saw a small scene when kakashi first saw him. It wasn't a surprise to me that it was Obito like most people as I like seeing through panels and theorized a lot for bleach Naruto and one piece back in the day.
Did anything you theorize about One Piece happen?
@@Kyonari a couple things. I knew Luffy wouldn't be able to beat or even touch kaido by people kept saying he was yonko level with gear 4th. Then we saw kaido one shot Luffy and that proved my point.
Another one was x drake being a marine even after becoming a pirate as it was easy to tell with how much he resented his father
Kaido fish fruit as the koi symbolism was in our face in the start of wano.
It's honestly not even theories at some point it's just facts that people tend to ignore as it's a shounen story and how I actually know japanese lores and legends that almost every manga just use. I mean Naruto bleach and one piece do this a lot
@@ivanbluecool Yeah okay, sounds all believable
@@Kyonari I mean do people not know the fish symbolism? Pokemon has that with magikarp for many years and stats it Mutiple times. Kaido was just that with his dragon fruit and we saw the falls too.
Most shounen stories would be easy to predict just seeing the same 4 legends Japan uses for everything with rajjin and such as it's easy to see where they get inspiration from.
@@ivanbluecool Luffy barely beat doffy and katakurri and they arent yonko level
I think Kishi had a loose back story for kalashi with how his team died and how minato was his teacher. So I think he left himself plenty of open doors to develop characters into what they became.
For instance, I think kishi knew kakashi’s teammate and best friend would be an uchiha and that’s whose eye he has. But he left himself enough room for obito to grow into someone who didn’t die, have the real madara as his mentor, amd that he was the leader of the akatski.
I really wish Kagami was Tobi, he was the student of TOBIrama and his son Shisui was pretty much the first Uchiha to side with the leaf over his own clan
I think kishimoto didn’t think about itachi being actually a double agent from the start
I’d disagree, it’s too important since it’s the very foundation of his philosophy. Itachi chose the leaf because he understood what a village is and why it is more important than the needs of the clan. Itachi understood the village action and despised his own clan for letting their frustration blind them from what matters which is that children never have to live war again. That was painted in the very beginning of his story when he was 4 years old and his dad took him to a battlefield. At a young age he understood the fist of war and understood the need for sacrifice in order to keep the rest safe. Remember when he was in the academy and first met Danzo and the latter asked him if you have a team of 10 men but one of them is sick and dying. You can’t help him and he can spread the disease to others, what do you do? Itachi answered with no hesitation you must kill the sick man and protect the 9 others. Subtle foreshadowing for what he would end up doing. You ever wandered why Itachi never seemed retribution towards danzo fir shisui’s death, because when he asked him about it he said straight up their plan would only work to delay a coup and the eye was better served in his position. He wasn’t wrong about the first thing and itachi new that. After the genocide the last interaction he has with danzo is threatening to leak all the village secrets if he does anything to Sasuke
@@dreammaker9642 Nah, you're trying to apply in-universe arguments. Itachi in the first half of the series was straight-up evil and the genjutsu he applied on Sasuke while taunting him were very obvious. The same goes for his attempts to capture Naruto. Sasuke and Jiraiya showing up were not a part of his plans.
It is okay to admit that your favorite mangaka made retcons and writing mistakes. Itachi being good, in hindsight, was a mistake.
@@kevintanza6968 perhaps you didn’t pay as close attention to detail as you think. Perhaps there’s some parts you’d like to rewatch or read. Cause further down the manga you usually explained a lot of things but it’s an old one so you might not remember or little kid you didn’t understand certain things at the time. It’s been over 20 years so who cares now. Just saying there’s a reason why Pain waited for Itachi to die and I can argue that Itachi’s motive was never to get Naruto but to go traumatize his little brother some more which he later before dying for good admitted was the wrong choice.
Yeah itachi in retrospect really didn’t do anything to evil in p1
Agreed kishi meant for itachi to be a hero he wanted a anti hero type character in his story
I agree with everything but Tobi causing the nine tailed fox is definitely a retcon. Remember in Naruto part 1, prior to the concept of jinchurikis (another retcon) they described the nine tailed fox as a force of nature that appears randomly through out time. Meaning the concept of the jinchuriki wasn't a thing back then, so Obito's motive and plan to steal the nine tailed fox from kushina also wasnt a thing
I can see that, though you could argue this was a misdirect from thr beginning, as it was established in part 1 that the Uchihas could control the 9 tails with the Sharingan.
@@DygoKnight Valid, I just doubt that Kishomoto from the first episode, knew that obito would be the one to cause the nine tailed attack. I'll grant you that Obito was always planned (i.e kakashis eye, and the mark, and him always going to the grave) I feel like the whole Obito caused the nine tailed attack definitely came later as the story progressed. At shippudden, when we sort of find out that Obito is that master mind behind all this shit, I think thats probably when Kishimoto decided to make him the cause of the attack. And like you said it just makes for a better story with Minatos connection to Obito and all.
I'm not saying it wasn't planned, but I don't think it makes much sense for Obito to be Tobi. Why help exterminate the Uchiha? Why release the Nine Tails on Konoha when his objective was to keep it?
It would make sense if it was Madara, because it would be for revenge, but the closest I got to an answer online was that he wanted other people to suffer. That's Nagato's ideal, not his. He wanted to end all suffering.
Obito was indifferent to suffering of others in the real world. He wasn't actively malicious or sadistic most of the time (he did have a justified vendetta against kirigakure after all and I bet he hated all of their shinobi) but he didn't care if others died since, in his logic, he was going to "resurrect" them in the genjutsu world anyway. Keep in mind he was only 14 when he attacked konoha and it was stated that the bijuu had to be sealed in order, so there wasn't even a reason to collect Kurama early. He was probably acting on emotions and wanted to get rid of his past by destroying the village. He calmed down as an adult and put more thought behind his plans.
@@_Seru_ I totally agree here, I think this is Kishimoto showing the extent of lost love turning to hatred and how it can warp the mind of an Uchiha especially a young one. Almost every Uchiha has done something extremely questionable and I think there is a clear reason for that happening time and time again.
@@_Seru_ a lot of what you're saying is after the fact of information you know now. So it just wouldn't make sense to come to these conclusions with the info we had then. Most ppl wanted it to be him simply because they liked the character. The Obito that attacked Konoha looked like an adult making it even more nonsensical at the time.
Before Tobi was revealed to be Obito, I always thought it was simply some sort of the ACTUAL body Madara, that simply took Obito's Sharingan and was doing its own thing. I honesty always dismissed the idea of it actually being Obito himself.
Actually the Japanese community thought it was the second Hokage Tobirama himself. Why? Back then, a lot of people were suspicious that the person who made the reanimation jutsu could be revived so callously with no failsafe or has actual morals. In the end we got Danzo instead for a "dark hokage" who believes he is fullfilling the seconds's role. This stand-in for Tobirama actually has prosthetic sharingans too.
@@zeppelincraft1443 makes sense considering tobi helped Itachi to kill the whole Uchihas
@@Madara_Uchiha69420that was also never explained. Obito did a lot of random things that didn’t actually serve his plans
If Madara wasn't close to death he could have easily just let Obito die and stole his eye later.
I remember the big theory back in the day was that the Akatsuki leader was the Fourth Hokage. But even when I was in middle school everyone joked about how Tobi was Obito
U seem Indian so like people really talked about this?
@@ohhellwhereami2574 I'm from Latin America and from that era (I'm 29 years old) and I can confirm that. There were a lot of theories, such as Minato being Pain and that Obito and Danzo were Tobi (not both at the same time but rather one of them).
I think one of the biggest issues is how a young Obito was able to tame the nine tails, invade the leaf and confront the 4th hokage. And then going on to control the Mizukage, recruit Kisame and found the Atkatsuki. This was one of the biggest complaints I remember people having about Tobi being Obito. Obito had to be a completely different level of genius to achieve all this, beyond Sasuke, Itachi and possibly Madara levels
He was trained by Madara in a genjutsu for years; and he has a broken MS ability.
well Obito studied everything about Sharingan, and mastered it at Young Age.
He's broken af. The cell and the mangekyo are too strong.
@@armorofgod1430 bro we know this now - but in hindsight you wouldn't know madara trained him so it would make no sense.
@@nobodyknowsforsure What do you mean? Explain
My friends all thought it was Obito, I thought it was some other random old Uchiha, I remember people saying he was Sasuke from the future lol
I tought it was some random Uchiha too
I thought it was a random Uchiha, because his eye was “crushed“lol. So for it to be Obito seemed like a reach, plus half his body was crushed and that was before we knew he was part Zetsu. He also had wrinkles lol. And I never do use the hair as evidence because a lot of characters have that hairdo lol.
My friends played the storm games and said that it was open tokens. They had similar move sets, and then I saw I was like oh yeah, I can see that, and then I was convinced after I saw Zetsu body. Although to me, it definitely seemed more like old man wrinkles than disfiguration.
I remember I doubted Obito being Tobi because he would have been like 14yo when Naruto was born and I couldn't image him controling kurama and fighting Minato when he was still a kid
Fr, but him being madara with short height is even more unbelievable
@@ohhellwhereami2574 ?? Short height? He looked like an adult and the premise was that if he was madara he was a shell of his former self - meaning he sustained damage so the mask made sense.
@@nobodyknowsforsure lmao if you think kid obito that fought minato was adult
Plus madara was said to be immortal so makes sense
Yeah that is the stupidest thing about Obito being Tobi actually.
"Who dies in Shounen anime crushed by things?"
SHIZAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
Still better than ending up as a Donut (Ace and Rengoku)
@@Kyonari You didn't mention Kakyoin
Danzo.
Tobi was originally Danzo.
He is Ninja CIA and created his own terrorist organization to undermine other countries while also creating panic that would necessitate Root's absolute control of the Leaf with him as the leader.
He is the driving force behind the Uchiha Massacre and so much of the setting. He had access to Orochimaru and Itachi and even has the right physical markers for Tobi.
Additionally, the nickname of the historical Danzo was "Flying Tobi".
But then everything had to be Uchiha nonsense.
Heated debate back in day regarding the reveal most people were dead set thinking Tobi was Izumi or random an Uchica. While people on Obito side were not taking seriously or were downplayed told how they were wrong. Main argument for not being Obito that it was too obvious for Kishimoto do that he was better than that (Naruto was still pretty much critic proof back). then)
"Who dies in shounen anime crushed by things?"
Ceasar: "Am i a joke to you🗿??"
Back then, after Kakashi Gaiden manga was release, fans were already speculating that Tobi is actually “Obito” because his name goes full circle if you repeat it twice [T(obiTo)bi] and the fact that Tobi’s character design mask has his Sharingan on the right side and Kakashi on his left. Minato being Naruto’s father wasn’t hard to guess as well since Naruto has his father’s hair color and eyes.
Didn't Kakashi Gaiden release before Shippuden in manga?
Shisui especially the scene in the 5 kage summit about controlling Yaguara and how close Itachi and the masked man seemed
The fact that it's even a debate is weird. Tobi was designed specifically with a mask on that only showed used the one eye Obito would have, as well as having a spiralling pattern that emulates the sharingan in a way. Plus there's a scene of him using his Obito voice, not his Madara voice, all the way during the three tails fight with deidara.
Edit: yeah he pointed it out.
As we can see in the video during the Konan fight when his mask broke he had 2 sharingans 😂😂
@@kristofnagy1373 how tall are you?
@@timtimothy5405 why does it matter?
"Who dies in a shounen crushed by things?"
Ceasar Zeppeli: "Am I a joke to you?"
Tobi is my father. That's why he was never arround.
Are you sure it wasn't Zorro? It seems more likely that he got lost into your Mother
Back in the day there were people who thought it was Izuna - Madara's brother. Because Tobi being Obito was TOO OBVIOUS.
I remember hearing this theory a long time ago that tobi was sasuke from the future, pretty wild even for a Naruto fan theory
now sasuke in the boruto manga is a tree
In the same chapter where Obito tells Sasuke of his story as “Madara”, we see both Obito partially unmasked and shots of Madara’s face.
Even back then, Kishimoto drew their eyes completely different from each other. That and the weird way he always drew Obito’s “wrinkles”, unlike any other old character in Naruto.
+ the fact that Zetsu continues to address him as “Tobi”, keeping the mask on, being very vague about his identity.
There is no retcon, it was always planned lol
What about Kisame being convinced Tobi was Madara after seeing his face?
@@hyypio764 i checked that chapter again, Kisame was doubting Tobi's reveal, so he told Tobi to prove it. as Tobi was about to, Kisame bit himself to stop the ninja probing his mind from probing any further, and his memory cut off right about then. we saw two more panels after Kisame cut his own tongue, the first being Tobi's reveal of the moon plan (forgot the name), and the second is Kisame smirking, reacting to that plan. it was never shown that Kisame was convinced Tobi was Madara. and we can't tell much from just his smirk, because it could either be "this Madara guy is nuts, can't wait to see the utter chaos this will turn out to be" or "hmph, masquerading as Madara and trying to achieve this plan... he's a nutcase, but this revelation is interesting"
@@phuongbach3864 Different chapter, bro. Obito also shows his face to Kisame after Itachi's death and Kisame calls him Madara.
My only real problem with the story before the Black Zetsu/Kaguya incident is Obito acting all goofy until Itachi's death. It's ridiculous for the character and you can't even justify it because Itachi already knew the masked man was "Madara", he even helped him assassinate the Uchiha clan, so what's the point of faking out even to the other Akatsuki members? Nagato and Konan knew he was "Madara", what must they have thought when goofy Tobi replaced Sasori?
And Kisame also knew, yet he doesn't connect Orange Mask Tobi with Yellow Mask Mizukage Madara until Obito shows him his face. "Oh, so it was you, Madara Uchiha, the Bloody Mist Mizukage... That idiot who was behaving like a child for comic relief alongside Deidara"
Hahah... Can you imagine White Mask Obito or Unmasked Obito, or even Edo Madara, going "Deidara Senpaaaaiii!"?
I wish Obito had any kind of interaction with Edo Deidara in the War Arc. "Oh, Tobi? You're serious now?"
That's why I like the idea that the goofy Tobi was actually Guruguru. But sadly for this headcanon to even work one needs to believe that that Tobi who halted Team Kakashi + Yamato during Sasuke and Itachi's fight was Obito wearing Guruguru, and that seems like a strech.
Why even have Guruguru? Obito wasn't weakened or wounded to use him like a suit.
Now tbf when he first made contact with Nagato, Yahiko and Konan he did so using Guruguru, but there was no reason for doing it except perhaps to appear a little taller (as he was still a kid) and because he didn't have a mask.
Orange Mask Obito would have no reason to wear Guruguru as he was already an adult capable of passing as a random Akatsuki member and then as Madara.
The problem persists that there wasn't even a reason for him to act differently. Itachi even programmed an Amaterasu in Sasuke's eye for him, so he wasn't fooling anyone relevant.
Also when they first showed Kakashi's flashback in the manga, young Obito was extremely similar to Naruto. This was a cool detail because it not only allowed Kakashi to grow and try to overcome his grief but also Obito was a good indication of how Naruto could have turned out, especially with the way the village treated him. Nothing too crazy but a cool detail that I think also shows that Obito was always a part of the plan
No way this was a retcon. It was a blatant set up. We finish part 1 of Naruto, then we do the Kakashi Gaiden which introduces us to Obito. Then in the very first Arc of Shippuden we get introduced to a mystery character with the same haircut as Obito and has a mask with a singular eye hole on the eye that would still be around.
People theorized Tobi was Obito from second number one after his reveal. I use to argue against the theory so badly because it just seemed TOO obvious. Like if Tobi would have been revealed with a different mask and hairstyle at first it would have been an actual disguise. I like to call this a reverse red herring. Where the writer makes the twist so obvious, but it is actually the twist and not a distraction.
That just felt like giving us something to enjoy and a backstory on kakashi showing us how he got his sharingan. It didn't feel like it was pointing to anything. Obito being alive just didn't make sense at the time for a variety of reasons. Tobi wasn't even introduced early on so it's not like it felt connected at all. Ppl just liked obito and wanted him to still be around so with the eye hole and the hair they went all in. Only later would evidence making it plausible appear.
It was clear since his first appearance that was Obito, I remember in forum discussions at the time theories about being Shisui or Fugaku, but we were on denial because Obito was such a good character, and we didnt want this character to ended like this
I never thought Tobi was retconned to be Obito. But i did always think it kinda dumb that every event of the series was secretly Obito. kinda like the Aizen asspull in Bleach where everything was "according to his plan". I dont think Obito should have been behind the 9 tails attack. i dont think the 9 tails should have killed Minato and Kushina, at least not in that way. That whole even just felt forced to me, with the sealing their chakra for later stuff and whatnot.
I’ll always remember when the obito vs Konan chapter came out.
I saw half of his mask taken off. So I grabbed my volume 27. Put the panel of obito crushed right next to the panel of tobi with half his mask blown off…and it was the same.
I was shook
Who here thought Tobi was Danzo back in the day? Despite all the clues hinting he was Obito, I heard that theory a lot up until Danzo and Sasuke fought.
No-one bro
No one
There were people, just not me.
Another thing that made it so obvious aside from the whole Tobi/Obito naming is that:
>Obito lost an eye
>An eye resembles in shape a O
Seriously don't get the naysayers being in denial over it being him. As a Naruto fan have to say was glad when proved right about it plus NaruHina being end game and not NaruSaku lol.
What??? No,it was always OBVIOUS that tobi was Obito from the kakashi gaiden arc
People had assumed Obito was Tobi from the very beginning for the same reasons you said (same hair / alternate eyehole to Kakashi). It was so obvious people wanted to think it was deeper than what it was. At the time, people assumed it may have been Tobirama (somehow) or Danzo since he also had the same hair and an eyepatch over his left eye.
As it turns out, I think Kishimoto realized he was way too obvious which was why Itachi mentions working with Madara to wipe out the Uchiha and the Minato flashback is of the masked man calling himself Madara.
We later see Tobi with long hair like Madara as another way to make it a bit of a red herring, actually getting a lot of people by that point.
It's also interesting since, if you look at the cover art for ch.16, Kakashi's blanket literally has the mangekyo sharingan pattern on it, which definitely implies Kishi had at least a rough idea what he wanted pretty early on
Obito:what should I call myself Madara?
Madara: well you are male so the O should be removed. Then let's scramble your name as bito is stupid.....I got it. Tobi
Obito:......
It's so dumb that it actually fooled some of us.
@@lisboah I knew from the start it would be him. Just didn't think it was so obvious kishi would do that with how many tells we get from Tobi.
IDK if Madara is extremely smart or dumb for that
Even the kanji for Tobi was basically an anagram for Obito
@@LokiTheClever yeah the O means you introduce with your name in old Japan and Tobi so I'll give that to kishi as a fun node
I'm one of those, who hated the twist with Obito being the villain and being alive all along.
Tobi was just some wacky guy for me, bringing in some needed comic relief in akatsuki antics or something.
There is no way Obito survived those rocks by slipping through the ground. There is no way that labil, sensitive boy would someday go off and murder his former master. And for what? For some stupid mass illusion?!
It must have been a retcon, I thought. It had to be something Kishimoto came up with later, after having written himself in a corner or something.
But ... damn, I guess you're right.
Good plea. And good video.
Bruh there's so many reasons why it didn't make sense but somehow it turned out that way. It still worked so in the end I gritted my way through it. The level of contrivances required to make it work was amazing.
- We literally hear him say 'I can't even feel my sides' [crushed by rocks] so his sharingan being okay would be out of the question.
- He'd have to conveniently happen to be by Madara's hideout
- Before knowing he was influenced by Madara him being able to fight high level jonin and the 4th is insane
- His entire attack on Konoha and controlling the kyubi.
- The scene with him and kakashi while important seemed like a closing off of his character imparting his eye and an ideal onto kakashi.
Before getting further information none of these things would make sense. The only thing that ppl claimed was his name pun and hair cut which if it was madara and he was a shell of his former self, it made sense.
I wanted Tobi to be Izuna because we were only told that he died and it made sense for him to know about the wars between Senju and Uchiha since he was there when it went down
I was so sure it was Izuna too, since we never saw how he died
But he died what you want guys
@@ohhellwhereami2574 usually in fiction, if a character isn't shown dying then they didn't really die
What about Uchiha Kagami? It was never told to us How he died, or even If he died his death was never confirmed, so to me he would be a great choice to be Tobi If he wasnt Obito all long, but lorewise It was always supposed to be Obito.
@@quentinjones6877 weird theory
Fun fact: there were actually a few seconds of shots showing kakashi's team in the anime during og Naruto.
It's pretty easy to forget since it didn't hold very much importance back then.
They specifically say his name in the anime too
Kinda off topic but it almost feels like the relationship between Minato and Kakashi was a retcon. How come you basically ignore the son of your master till he is like 12 and you're told by your boss to look after him? Then in the begining of Shippuden Kakashi and Naruto start to develop some sort of connection that just wasn't there during part one. "Kakashi was cold hearted and wanted to keep him away" then why was he so close to Sasuke? In one of the novels if im not mistaken it was stated that he was like that to Sasuke cause he felt like the Uchiha massacre was his fault since he was Itachi's leader in the anbu. I just don't see how you can have basically the same type of relationship with 2 characters yet not be there at all for one till the other leaves. Jiraiya has somewhat of a case for doing nothing for Naruto, not that strong of a case imo.
Just comes down to bad and sloppy writing.
@@Temujin18S agree
Thumbnail looks like Sasuke👁️great commentary 👏🏻
Back in the day, some people thought the masked man could not be Obito because "he was too tall when fighting Minato". 😅
Remember that in the manga the Obito flashback happened before Tobi was introduced, during the timeskip I believe
You could have at least addressed some points that go against him originally being Obito. Like how he had already reached his full height as an early teen during the Nine Tails Attack and had become skilled enough to control Kurama and fight Minato. Or how Obito having just a regular MS creates the problem of him never going blind from Kamui. Or how Kisame is somehow convinced Obito is Madara after seeing his face, despite Obito looking nothing like him and Madara's face being publicly known. Or how Tobi after the Pain arc reflects that the Rinne Tensei was supposed to be used on him.
the height part can be disputed since boys are known to have a very quick and unexpected growth spurt. as for Kisame, he is established to be a ninja that is very cautious with intel, to the point of killing himself to keep the information safe. Kisame's reaction seeing Obito revealing his face could just be interpreted "ahh... so you're NOT the legendary madara, this is interesting" because he didn't really react much, it could be interpreted as such. and since he's cautious with his intel, he doesn't go around and tell people his discovery. for the Pain part, i don't remember this happening, because I'm pretty sure it was Madara in Endo tensei form and not Obito making a remark in the middle of the war that Nagato was supposed to revive him with Rinne tensei. i don't think Obito ever told Pain to use Rinne tensei on Madara
@@phuongbach3864 Nah, since Kisame literally refers to Tobi as Madara after seeing his face again after Itachi's death.
The scene where Obito says he wanted Nagato to use the Rinne Tensei on him is right after the Pain arc.
I remember when Naruto was big in like 2007 and we didn’t really know any of these details yet, there was a theory about Tobi being Obito because of the similarity of their names and the fact that only his left eye was visible behind the mask (since Kakashi had his right eye). Those hints were there even back then
I think some people, including me, feel the Obito parts of the story are a bit awkward. Some people might try to explain it by it being another retcon. Really I think it’s a consequence of Kishimoto writing so fast that it all feels awkward.
I think this is the true answer. Kishi wrote himself in a corner where Tobi couldn't be either Madara or Obito.
Reasons why he can't be Obito:
- Magically reached adult proportions and power to control Kurama (something Jiraya thinks only Madara could do) as an early teen
- Convinced Kisame he was Madara by showing him his face
- Said he was supposed to be revived via Rinne Tensei
- Him having the same eye as Kakashi would mean he'd have to go blind
Reasons why he can't be Madara:
- Kept hiding his face even after revealing that he's Madara
- If he's able to still wield the Rinnegan as seen in the War arc, why give it to Nagato in the first place?
- Why does Zetsu still call him Tobi while the two are in private?
Honestly i feel itd be better if it was hinted at who/what Tobi was soon after it was shown he and Madara were different people. Maybe have Madara say something vague n ominous; maybe along the lines of "That man is my shadow. My disciple. I saved him from the brink of death 20 years ago, and he repaid the favor by keeping my legacy alive while I was gone."
Honestly, one of the most interesting theories was tobi being Indra. The mask motif was the same swirl as Indra’s ms. Plus with how important the sage of the six paths was set up to be. His bitter son have managed to somehow survive almost a millennium but as a shell of his former self made sense. And in the flashback when he attacked konoha, the nine tails recognized him as if he knew him. He would have taught madara how to summon the nine tails and later do it himself in attacking konoha.
Doesn't make sense
So he taught himself, sounds fun
That first scene showing Tobi talking with Zetsu after Sasori's death was definitely retconned, as we later knew Zetsu knew who Tobi was all along.
Do next part of rewrite
No
This reminds me of the old theory of "Pain is Minato" due to his silhouette. Fun times...
It's obvious that Obito was always a part of the story because Kakashi's scar and sharingan requires a backstory. But I also think that kishimoto made tobi as a masked man because he wanted flexibility until he wanted to decide who it was going to be. He had two main ways of doing it, either it's Obito, or it's Madara with Obito's eye.
The latter could've worked if he decided that whatever happened with madara after the valley of the end fight helped him live for longer and he got Obito's eye like how he got him out of the rubble in the final story. I'm sure he went back and forth in his mind, but I think he finally decided during the summit arc as he was setting up the war arc and coming up with the tsuki no me plan.
This is speculation of course, but as he was building the lore and backstory behind the ten tails and hagoromo probably near the tail end of the pain arc he came up with the backstory he presented during the summit arc and decided that the rinnegan were madara's eyes. But as he set up the war arc and the resolution to Kabuto's character and had the idea of the edo tensei army he decided in final that Tobi was going to be Obito and Madara was going to come back as a reanimation.
And then during the arc as the "the last" movie project started being concepted he came up with the otsutsuki lore and turned hagoromo into an alien and gave him a brother because it had already had been established that the ten tails turned into the moon before so there was a connection to the princess kaguya folk tale that he could do. Then as the boruto movie project started being concepted a few years before the end of the series he turned the otsutsuki from moon people into interdimensional aliens.
3:10 I always loved that shot. But I never knew it appeared so early
It was very obvious that Obito was Tobi, but the bigger theory was his motive and when Tobi "revealed" himself to be Madara, there was a theory that Madara somehow possessed Obitos body.
But it wast obvious he was tobi no way u thought beginning of shippiden tobi was obito ur freaking lieing no way u could of know
This was a case of "That would be really fucking stupid, the author would never!". Yet here we are, Kishimoto still dissapointing us again and again.
A very subtle connection to Obito is seen in Tobi's conversation with Zetsu after recruiting Sasuke. Tobi acknowledges how the deceased members of the Akatsuki "made a contribution in their own ways" and they "would not have gotten this far without them". Most villainous leaders usually disregard their fallen cohorts after their demise, but Tobi acknowledges their power/worth which falls in line with Obito's philosophy.
😊😊😊😊😊😊
"who dies in Shonen anime being crushed by things?"
cries in Caesar Zeppeli*
He was actually Hikaku
5:12-5:17 “let’s be real, Who dies in shonen anime crushed by anything?”
Me: *Deep breath* CAAAAAEEEEEEEESAAAAAAAAAARRRRRR
The thing that annoys me: where did he get the second eye?
(The one he sacrifices to the paper bombs)
From the dozens of Uchihas he killed in the Uchiha Clan Massacre
The fact anyone was surprised or outraged Tobi was Obito actually makes me ashamed of being a part of this fandom lol
Kishi never planned for Itachi to be a good guy
yeah like if he really cared about konoha he wouldn't put Kakashi on genjutsu
Was a good watch as normal , W dygo
Kakashi had one sharingan and wasnt an uchiha its pretty safe to assume kishimoto had thought that through when making kakashis character... He however probably didnt think of doing a plot twist and bringing him back until shippuden or giving obito and kakashi their flashback or else we probably would have seen MS much earlier from kakashi
Another awesome analysis.
Thank you!
I just want to add that in the Minato v tobi fight, he was already using the phasing through suff, as well with deidera vs Sasuke, which is the explanation given for how he survived the cave collapse.
but he would have to have kamui for that and he didn't have it until after he saw Rin dead
When Tobi's mask breaks against Konan, we see a second Sharingan. I couldn't help but feel like I was lied to. As if people would assume that somehow Obito could just acquire another incredibly rare eye. It'd be perfectly acceptable to rule out both Obito and Shisui for that reason.
It's almost like they thought about this and came up with some convoluted bollucks to explain it away after the fact.
I'm surprised this wasn't mentioned in the video
@Budd Brown I have so many of these mini-criticisms for Naruto... it's kinda sad, but, still. Lol