Sorry, but rigid thinking, strict adherence to protocol and no deviation from extensive and coragraphed planning of the battle in Japanese military culture is a main reason they lost the battle of Midway. A definite Japanese national characteristic. Like Mike Tyson said "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
We were discussing the Allied intelligence of the capability of Japanese aircraft and less the wider strategic application. The Japanese could be very flexible in their approach, as seen in South East Asia. But, at Midway, as you raised it, USN Wildcat pilots had been briefed to fight the Zero in a way that was not accurate, which the Marines on Guadalcanal were finding out and adapting to with the Wildcat which, when flown correctly, was a match for the Zero. Yes, the Japanese fumbled it at Midway, as Mark E. Stille went to great lengths to show on @WW2TV last night.
@damcasterspod I did go on a tangent yes I am in the middle of your show and will finish it. My understanding is the US in had almost no intel on the Japanese war machine pre war, however on the subject of Midway was when a US Navy pilot with general intel on the Zeros excellent manverablity created and used the" Thach weave" with the outdated yet more armored F4F wildcat
As Justin points out, they were getting good intel from China. They were not interpreting it correctly. The Wildcat was no slouch, either. Again, the Marine experience with it on Guadalcanal shows that when deployed with the correct tactics, it was a formidable match to the Zero, which was then outmatched by the arrival of the Corsair and Hellcat.
Since you took the time to write a comment, I'll let you know my two cents. I have to disagree that it is the main reason they lost the Battle of Midway, or even a reason at all. The planning wasn't overly choreographed or particularly complex other than what was required for an amphibious landing and naval operation of that scale. There's a bad double-standard in much of the historiography where complex American amphibious planning is praised and complex Japanese amphibious planning is derided, for the exact same reasons. The planning of Operation MI was rushed and lacking more than anything else. Not that it matters since the Americans broke Japanese naval codes and managed to convince decision makers to act on the information. Without that basic reality there was no Battle of Midway at all in any form remotely resembling what happened historically - no carriers waiting in ambush, no reinforcement of the island, no greatly enhanced searches, none of it. Much of the historiography has been far too harsh on the Japanese not planning for an eventuality that was so transparently absurd that no one would plan for it. You'd simply call the operation off if you knew or go in expecting a slugging match if you were to persist. This has been underlined in the context of scouting in particular by Anthony Tully (yes, one of the coauthors of Shattered Sword) and Lu Yu in an article for the Naval War College Review. It's entitled "A Question of Estimates: How Faulty Intelligence Drove Scouting at the Battle of Midway".
@justinpyke1756 off the top of my head a Japanese sub or plane had spotted unusual Americanl navel presence near the Midway invasion fleet as they approached the island pre battle however they had strict radio silence orders to keep the element of surprise so they didn't warn the IJN carrier group over the radio. 100% this is an example of Japanese strict adherence to orders over common sence as if the US Navy is nearby, obviously they lost the element of surprise and needed to re assess the situation.
Fascinating conversation guys. So glad I happened upon this video😊
Thankd for joining us.
It was very British.
Despite it being two Canadians? 😉
@@damcasterspod Canadians are obviously copied British. 34:41
Seen Justin on Drac and WW2TV before
Can we have a high resolution image of your bookshelf?
It is crazy messy at the moment! But I'll get one posted on the comunity page.
You see the same amount of undetestimation of any country thats not a Western power or Russia (pre Ukraine) to this day .
Very true, which is one of the reasons we wanted to have this conversation. How we view others is a vital aspect of how we understand them or not.
How much do we repeat this today, about China?
Very good question, which by extention can be applied to Russia and Iran, all countries with a very different cultural outlook to our own.
Sorry, but rigid thinking, strict adherence to protocol and no deviation from extensive and coragraphed planning of the battle in Japanese military culture is a main reason they lost the battle of Midway. A definite Japanese national characteristic.
Like Mike Tyson said "everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth"
We were discussing the Allied intelligence of the capability of Japanese aircraft and less the wider strategic application. The Japanese could be very flexible in their approach, as seen in South East Asia. But, at Midway, as you raised it, USN Wildcat pilots had been briefed to fight the Zero in a way that was not accurate, which the Marines on Guadalcanal were finding out and adapting to with the Wildcat which, when flown correctly, was a match for the Zero. Yes, the Japanese fumbled it at Midway, as Mark E. Stille went to great lengths to show on @WW2TV last night.
@damcasterspod I did go on a tangent yes I am in the middle of your show and will finish it. My understanding is the US in had almost no intel on the Japanese war machine pre war, however on the subject of Midway was when a US Navy pilot with general intel on the Zeros excellent manverablity created and used the" Thach weave" with the outdated yet more armored F4F wildcat
As Justin points out, they were getting good intel from China. They were not interpreting it correctly. The Wildcat was no slouch, either. Again, the Marine experience with it on Guadalcanal shows that when deployed with the correct tactics, it was a formidable match to the Zero, which was then outmatched by the arrival of the Corsair and Hellcat.
Since you took the time to write a comment, I'll let you know my two cents. I have to disagree that it is the main reason they lost the Battle of Midway, or even a reason at all. The planning wasn't overly choreographed or particularly complex other than what was required for an amphibious landing and naval operation of that scale. There's a bad double-standard in much of the historiography where complex American amphibious planning is praised and complex Japanese amphibious planning is derided, for the exact same reasons. The planning of Operation MI was rushed and lacking more than anything else. Not that it matters since the Americans broke Japanese naval codes and managed to convince decision makers to act on the information. Without that basic reality there was no Battle of Midway at all in any form remotely resembling what happened historically - no carriers waiting in ambush, no reinforcement of the island, no greatly enhanced searches, none of it. Much of the historiography has been far too harsh on the Japanese not planning for an eventuality that was so transparently absurd that no one would plan for it. You'd simply call the operation off if you knew or go in expecting a slugging match if you were to persist. This has been underlined in the context of scouting in particular by Anthony Tully (yes, one of the coauthors of Shattered Sword) and Lu Yu in an article for the Naval War College Review. It's entitled "A Question of Estimates: How Faulty Intelligence Drove Scouting at the Battle of Midway".
@justinpyke1756 off the top of my head a Japanese sub or plane had spotted unusual Americanl navel presence near the Midway invasion fleet as they approached the island pre battle however they had strict radio silence orders to keep the element of surprise so they didn't warn the IJN carrier group over the radio.
100% this is an example of Japanese strict adherence to orders over common sence as if the US Navy is nearby, obviously they lost the element of surprise and needed to re assess the situation.
Intro so long I wrote this comment and clicked off and still had 5 minutes to go . Nobody gives af about your channel updates lmaoo
That is why there are chapters, so you can jump forward. Thanks for the view and the engagement though!