What do you think would have happened if Anne and Henry had stayed married? Let me know below and remember to check out my Patreon at www.patreon.com/historycalling and my Amazon storefront at www.amazon.com/shop/historycalling
If there were no male heir forthcoming in a reasonably short time (my guess is that Henry probably didn't think he was at fault for the non appearance of children), I think Henry would have divorced her to marry whichever one of the queen's maids of honor he had inevitably fallen in love with--maybe poor Catherine Howard all over again. I sort of can't imagine their staying married, even had Henry found her attractive. The likelihood of pregnancy was so low, that, given Henry wouldn't have deemed it his fault, that he would surely have ended the marriage at some point, even if not as early as 6 months after the wedding.
If Henry and Anne stayed married, Thomas Cromwell may not have been executed, and who knows what that would have meant for his nephew Richard and subsequent descendants?
I have a soft spot in my heart for Anne. She clearly understood how to maneuver a very tricky situation, and she left the marriage *alive* and with assets. And, from the portraits, she was charmingly pretty. I find her life story quite sad.
Her story is sad in many ways, but compared to Henry's other wives I think she was the luckiest (though admittedly the bar for luck here is pretty low).
She probably wasn't interested in being Henry's wife at the start. This new arrangement was the best that could be given to her under the circumstances of the time.
Ive read that Anne requested to stay in England. Her brother was extremely physically abusive of both Anne & her Sister. As well as any funds she was given would belong to her brother. And she'd be back in a country where she'd have to stay veiled, give up cards and music and been immediately sold off into another marriage of her brothers choice. Henry did her a favor granting her request and writing it into her divorce to protect her from her brother demanding she return to Cleves. Smart Girl.
As the King's sister though she probably had more independence. Plus she couldn't be remarried as the "reason" for her annulment was her precontract to the Duke of Lorraine
I’ve always wondered what would have happened if Henry didn’t try to surprise her with the clandestine early visit. Her response to Henry would have been very different during a proper introduction, and he might not have been offended.
I’ve always wondered if that was really the reason Henry VIII had Thomas Cromwell executed. It seems odd that Anne and Henry could have an amicable annulment and then put Cromwell to death over it. I guess we’ll never really know, but something about the story seems incongruous to me.
@@Jami-Frankieshe also wasn't a "cultured woman" dance, music, card games, basically everyday life in the Tudor court wasn't allowed in Cleves. It's possible that Jane Seymour and Katherine Howard were more educated than her, and ironically Henry had a thing for educated women.
Better to be Henry’s “sister” than his wife. I think it’s a shame she wasn’t allowed to return home, but she seemed to be good at rolling with the punches, as the saying goes. Have a great weekend, HC! ❤✌️🌷
@@rl3293yes, she chose to stay because she was a free, wealthy woman of high society in England and referred to as the King’s Sister, had she returned she would have be under her brother’s authority. She may have considered returning but in the end she continued at court and lived a much better life in England, a wealthy independent woman.
I'm currently reading "Anna Duchess of Cleves - the King's 'beloved sister' " by Heather Darsie Highly recommend it! I'm from Germany, from what would have been Guelders at the time. I never expected to learn so much about rural Germany, when researching a wife of Henry VIII. 😂 I also learned that Anna's grandpa attacked and besieged my hometown, don't know how I feel about that 😂😂
Anne of Cleves was clever enough to avoid being executed. Of course Henry VIII didn't want to end up in a war with the Protestant nations, so he offered her a way out and she accepted it. She outlived Henry and his five other wives, Catherine Parr the only other wife who outlived Henry, but died before Anne of Cleves.
Yes, she arguably had the best deal out of the lot of them. Catherine of Aragon did live longer (having just passed 50 when she died, while Anne was not quite 42), but Catherine had such a miserable life in many ways.
@HistoryCalling Both women were political pawns of their families, not unusual for the time. Henry didn't dare execute either of them as Katherine's Catholic support would have overwhelmed Henry and his fledgling Protestantism. Anne of Cleves's brother and the Protestant Alliance would have not only allied against Henry, but also questioned his divorce from K of A, likely rendering his son illegitimate as well as ER I, and leaving only Mary, a devout Catholic as a legitimate heir.
There is no way Anne of Cleves would have been executed as she was a member of a powerful family that were not under Henry’s authority. It’s no coincidence that the two women executed were English.
Anne of Cleves is one of those historical figures I would love to be able to sit down and just chat with. Her perspective must be fascinating. She's not going to solve any big historical mysteries or anything, but I am sure she'd have a lot of tales to tell. She may well have enjoyed being Queen and done a good job, if Henry hadn't been so blind to his own faults and thought he could do "better." And yes, things would have been far better for Catherine and Katherine as well as Princess Elizabeth.
Yes, she'd be an interesting dinner guest (assuming you could get her to spill the beans that it). Of course all the wives would be interesting. A roundtable discussion amongst them would be fascinating, but Catherine of Aragon would probably be tearing Anne Boleyn's hair out and Anne B would be doing the same to Jane Seymour.
Hello, history calling. I was on Reddit last night, looking over the great history RUclips channels. And they didn't have you on there. I was outrage 😡 how dare they not have the great history calling.
Hi HC, yes a very thoughtful hypothesis that I’ve never heard being considered before. It could have changed the course of English history as you said. It’s similar to the question if Arthur Tudor had survived. Brilliant as always. Thanks.
If Catherine Parr had married Seymour earlier, they may have had several children who survived. As the Seymour’s were a prominent family, the children would have married into other prominent families and might have been rich and powerful.
I agree with you, due to Henry's fertility issues Anne would never have fallen pregnant and as in our timeline, I think it pretty much remains the same, with everything just happening slightly later. Anne herself is ultimately underrated, she played the game well and ultimately benefitted in ways none of his other wives did.
Anne made out like a bandit…much better than most of Henry’s wives. At the very least, she kept her head on straight and somehow got a very generous offering for the annulment. She outlived, not only Henry, but also the rest of his wives (I think), and she lived quite well in her own place in the English countryside. I think she did pretty good.
I’ve just finished reading “The Mirror and the Light” so the timing of this video coming out is excellent for me! The book’s fictionalized account of the first meeting between Anna and Henry and Henry’s unchecked narcissism make the historical facts very approachable and intuitive as outcomes from the circumstances and personalities.
I've researched Anne for well over 40 years, and while I've learned nothing new from your videos, I can most certainly vouch for their accuracy. Moreover, I find your pragmatic, nonspeculative approach quite refreshing. You are to be greatly commended!
I love videos learning about how lucky (and wealthy) Anne was. By the way I visited Anne of Cleves’ tomb at Westminster Abbey this past May during holiday to England and Norway and thought of your channel!
I have always wondered what the purpose of designating Anne of Cleves as Henry's sister was? Since the marriage was annulled, wouldn't she have returned to her brother, who might have been eager to continue to use her as a pawn in making alliances? Or would she have been deemed a failure, tainted by Henry's rejection, and so, not worth much on the marriage mart. It does seem strange that, as a single, wealthy, young woman, no one seemed eager to marry her and take control of her lands. Nor did Henry require her to marry a foreign prince to make a state alliance as he did his true sister. I wonder what Anne's brother the Duke of Cleeves thought about Henry's repudiating the marriage, but keeping his sister?
I think it was to give her precedence over everyone in the land (except Henry, his wife and his children) and to sooth her ego a bit. She was still nominally in the royal family by doing this. It also made Henry look better. Yes, I think her brother wanted her back, but he had no choice in the matter really. As Henry's sister, she was also a citizen of England and under Henry's control. This meant he could keep her there and prevent her slandering his bedroom performance all across Europe. If you see my video on whether she could have remarried, it discusses why she likely didn't.
Henry’s ego makes sense to me as his reason. Also he had most likely been in disfavor with the people because of his divorcing, and cutting off heads policy when it came to marriage. I think Anne of Cleves was most likely well respected and he knew if he treated her so badly he would of lost confidence with the people and most likely the people of her country. He didn’t want to make enemies. I truly believe it was all for himself.
@@traczebabe I agree, Henry's ego seems to have been all encompassing. And since he reportedly had a good amount of talent and good looks, it's not even surprising. What is surprising to me is that he couldn't find some pretext to visit Cleves in order to meet both the sisters and choose. A pilgrimage, homage, or diplomacy, - something rather than rely on second hand reports and a painting. It's strange to think that he might have been satisfied with the other sister - Amalia?
@@HistoryCallingwhile I fully agree with your reasoning on why HENRY didn't allow her to leave, I don't understand why Mary didn't let her leave when requested
I wonder if Anne of Cleves had produced a daughter and stayed married to Henry, would her daughter have followed Edward to the throne before Mary and Elizabeth?
How interesting--the idea of Anne and Henry staying together. As you point out, the last two wives would have been much better off. I do think, though, that Anne of Cleves was much too smart to have ever risked childbearing with Henry. It was the ultimate gamble, and I think she would have found ways to prevent that happening even if it had become possible. She was well aware of Henry's age and the stakes. (I just can't resist a sort of off-topic question: Anne of Cleves ultimately got possession of Hever Castle, the Boleyn family home? I had thought that Thomas Boleyn returned to court some time after the beheading of his daughter. How did the castle fall out of the family's hands?)
Thomas Boleyn died in 1539 with no surviving son to inherit his property and apparently Anne was allowed to lease Hever according to the Castle's website. www.hevercastle.co.uk/visit/hever-castle/owners/anne-of-cleves/#:~:text=Anne%20settled%20happily%20in%20England,part%20of%20her%20time%20here.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR VERY KIND DONATION TO THE CHANNEL USARMYGUY. I'm really sorry to hear you had to deal with depression. It's an awful illness and it doesn't help that it's invisible to other people too. I'm happy that I was able to help in some way though. I hope you're feeling much better now.
It would have made a difference to Elizabeth though. I don't think she was close to Katherine before she married Henry. Katherine shaped the person Elizabeth became in her later years, so it might have made a huge difference there
Yes, I think it would have really changed Elizabeth's life. She wouldn't have seen Katherine Howard executed and Thomas Seymour wouldn't have gotten near her.
CP wouldn’t have been the young Elizabeth’s stepmother so Seymour wouldn’t have had the chance to try to seduce her but I guess he would have found someone else to cheat with as it was the culture then
I absolutely love your videos. I know when I press the play button I am getting the most accurate information. Thank you for all your hard work, passion for history, and dedication to truth.
I love Anne so much and she seems to have been happy after she left Henry’s house. She was free from the oppressive conditions of her brother, free from Henry’s immediate presence. I’m glad she got away.
Thanks Claire. Have a lovely weekend too. I hope wherever you are, you're in line for better weather than Northern Ireland is meant to get tomorrow - I think I'm going to have to stay in.
That was super fun to watch because everything seemed to work out so well for Anne, who got a very nice divorce settlement, though having to stay in England was clearly not her preference. However, I don't know if it would have been so happy for Anne if they'd remained married for longer than those few months. Henry wasn't very kind to wives who didn't produce an heir, even though it was probably his own inability to consummate the marriage which was at fault. If Anne had gone childless for more than a year, the king would still have found a way to put the blame on her and maybe the ultimate conclusion to the marriage would not have been as pretty. All in all, I think the way it worked out was probably the best scenario Anne could have hoped for. The only way it could have ended better would have been if Henry had died sooner, than he actually did, without having time to figure out a way to put the blame on her before ending the marriage. Sorry, my imagination isn't helping today. I used it all up on inventing a wacky plot involving the boys in the tower.
Thanks Anne. Yes, he might not have been amused that she didn't produce a child, but I also wonder if it was even starting to dawn on him by that point that he couldn't get anyone pregnant any more? Anne Boleyn was stating there were problems in that area all the way back in 1536. I agree though that Anne got the best deal possible.
@@HistoryCalling I seriously think that one of the reasons that Anne Boleyn was executed was for babbling about Henry's impotence, this was clearly a hard blow to his ego and even George was excecuted for reading the secret letter in where he mentioned that, had she kept quiet and be less brazen, maybe he would have not executed her, but just vanish her
Wonderful insightful content. If King Henry VIII would have found Anne of Cleves attractive it's possible that they would have had offspring that could have potentially inherited the throne and history would have been different but it never happened. At the end it was better for her to become his "sister" than his wife. She's one of my favourite historical figures and her official portraits are beautiful masterpieces. Your AI generated recreation from her iconic portrait by Hans Holbein The Younger is stunning. Amazing work. Thank you.
This is so interesting, I would love to see similar what if scenarios based on historical evidence. I would be interested in knowing the similar arrangements for other royal consorts, Mary's husband Philip
Philip is interesting because he was a King in his own right (and a man of course), so he was never in the same position of dependence on his spouse that Anne was. Basically, when Mary died he lost his influence in England because they had no children and if memory serves, that was one of the things stipulated by their marriage contract.
@@HistoryCalling Parliament was very careful about that part. There were all sorts of restrictions on what he was permitted to do with their children, had there been any.
Anna von Kleves is one of my favorite historical figures. Having seen the theories about Henry’s health, I think Anne would have been unlikely to have a boy who was any healthier than Edward. Even his daughters had health problems. I think the only change in the succession if she’d gotten pregnant would have been another baby sister. I don’t think a prince would have survived very long. But seeing how loving and devoted a stepmother Anne was, I think her own children never would have lacked for love or care.
I don't think Edward was thought sickly before he contracted what is often thought to be tuberculosis. Whether Henry's children had fundamentally compromised constitutions or whether the acute stress all of them had suffered had a weakening effect is a good question.
You could say Anne of Cleves was the luckiest of all of Henry's wifes. Being able to call yourself his sister and be wealthy is definitely better than being beheaded or dying in childbirth👑👸🤴
Thanks. Fyi . I didn't receive a notification on this . But was expecting a video so looked for it . Oh and btw , i looked at your matilda video. ( very good ) oh and i passed on your thanks to me friend . ( she was delighted) .
Thanks Shane. That's so odd that you didn't get a notification. I get told that by people sometimes and I don't understand how it happens. Have you double checked you definitely have all notifications switched on? Honestly though, sometimes YT just has glitches. For example, I'm having problems with the end cards not showing or not showing properly on the video I did on Katherine Howard a few weeks ago and 25 days and numerous messages to YT support later, it's still not fixed. 😭
@HistoryCalling oh yes, I have checked . But to ve honest, it happens with several channels I follow. . I have heard some say . If you unsubcribe and then subscribe and push the bell, all notifications again. That may help . But you mentioned others had the issue. For example, last Friday. It came almost immediately. ( notification ) this Friday it didn't. It's probably RUclipss system. Lagging or malfunctioning. ..I know people often forget to push the all notifications button. Some of it must be that. ..( but not all )
When i was in college my English History professor said he believed the reason Ann was not allowed to return to Cleve’s was to ensure that she didn’t marry into a another European monarchy and having children with them. Or simply Henry wanted to see where his money was going. Is this a possible scenario or do you feel he was mistaken?
Totally agree with him - if she would have remarried into another royal house, and given birth to a brood of kids (sons especially) it would’ve made Henry’s likely inability to consummate at this point blatantly obvious and shown she wasn’t as unattractive as Henry suggested.. Also with the safety associated with remarrying into another house, it’s likely she would’ve felt safe enough to express her true feelings on Henry… which wouldn’t have reflected well on him lol.
Also the settlement she received gave her power and independence… I would imagine the thought of freedom from a husband, and from a brother that would immediately marry her off again was the best outcome she could hope for. Sad she couldn’t go home to visit with her settlement. Considering the other wives of H8 - she definitely had the best end result of their short lived marriage.
Hi, awesome live history video on Henry the eighth and Anne of Cleves. I enjoyed it. How are you doing? How is the weather where you are? I'm doing well. We have beautiful weather here in Ontario, Canada. Have a great day. See you next video 😊
Thanks Michelle. I think it's gonna rain across the whole country tomorrow which is a bit of a bummer. Still, Autumn in NI - what can you do? I suppose complaining about it is like complaining about snow in Canada in the winter. It's just inevitable that it's going to happen. :-)
@HistoryCalling I agree with you. My father lived in Northern Ireland. He told me about the weather when he lived there back in the 1960s. I never been to Northern Ireland. Have you ever been to Canada?
Interesting food for thought, HC. I wonder if Thomas Cromwell might have kept his head had the union of Henry and Anne not turned into such a debacle.There were other factors in his downfall, of course. As you say, we'll never know.
THANK YOU SO MUCH STEPHEN FOR DONATING TO THE CHANNEL. You're always very generous :-) Yes, I wonder too if Cromwell would have lasted longer if the Cleves' marriage had been one of his great successes instead of one of his great failures.
I wonder what would have happened to Thomas Cromwell if Henry remained married to Anne? Would it have been business as usual, or would Cromwell's enemies still had taken him down at some point?
I actually think the biggest change would've been that Thomas Cromwell would not have been so easy to supplant and his effect on government policy was profound and pragmatic. I think we would've seen a much calmer end to Henry and beginning of young Edward, and that may very well have had deep ramifications on the reigns of all three of the Tudor children.
She might have done, yes. If he'd married her 8 or 9 years earlier he might have been more likely to be able to get her pregnant too (although I don't like teenage marriages, but that was the way of the world then).
Oh and at the risk of being crass, if Anne’s marriage to Henry was never consummated, then in my opinion, she was indeed the most fortunate of his wives. With the exception of Catherine of Aragon, there seems to be a bit of an icky age gap.
Yes, I think she was indeed. If we accept Anne Boleyn's birth as being in 1501 (which I know many people don't - they say she was born in 1507) then I don't think their 10 year gap was bad, but as for the rest of them, yes the gaps were pretty big and very big in the case of Katherine Howard.
Three more things: 1. My female cat gave birth to four kittens; would you like to be A God mother to them ? 2. Did you know that Richard III marriage with Anne might not be with the ups; how hilarious it is; he says his older brother marriage is illegal but his marriage is questionable. 3.There is this old couple who have two wild turkeys, that, they named: "No" and "Stop it".
Oh course to the kitty godmother position. Thank you very much. Yes, I do know about Richard not bothering to get the Papal annulment sorted out. Very strange indeed. What odd names for turkeys, or indeed any creature :-)
I like to think Anne of Cleves remembered how he mistreated Catherine and Anne. She certainly didn’t want to lose her head. Henry verbally abused her. She was clever in signing the annulment papers. She lived a good life. Thank you. A a lovely weekend.
He was always quite reasonable towards her it was the difference between her portrait and the reality . If he could have done his marital duty they would have jogged along because he did have one son xxx
@@HistoryCalling oh yes however difference between killing a young woman ( women ) of his country , messing with Cleves added a bit more or an expensive risk . She was so lucky xxx
I have a soft spot for Anne too. We have a family lineage that says a very very distant ancestor was one of the 4 men dispatched to accompany Anne to England. No one knows for certain if it's true but it's fun to talk about! I think she was the lucky, smart and kept her witts to come away with such a good outcome.
Honestly, I think that if Henry had only had four wives and beheaded one of them instead of having six and beheading two of them, he wouldn’t be nearly as famous. Which means Hampton Court would probably be less of a tourist draw and we wouldn’t have nearly the amount of television about the Tudors as we get. In fact, without the six wives (and assuming Anne didn’t give birth to a Tudor king) it’s possible that the Stuarts would be the more famous dynasty today. Although Henry would still have been known for founding the Church of England, the Stuarts had the gunpowder plot, the civil war, and the glorious revolution.
Yes, it is a wonder to me sometimes that the Stuarts aren't more popular. They really did have a lot going on and the Jacobite issue rumbled on for over a century, which was even longer than the Wars of the Roses.
Would you ever consider doing Anne Boleyn or Cathrine Howard if they stayed as queen of England either one of them or if they got an annulment and sent away instead of getting killed how their life would have ended
Probably not to be honest. The reason I chose Anne of Cleves is because we have the marriage settlement document showing what ought to have happened and so that gave me a foothold in real history to base the video on.
@@HistoryCallingWhy many thanks :) also, have you finished the 6th season of Outlander? (I don’t yet have access to the 7th bc I’m waiting for it to get to Netflix)
I don't have s6 on Netflix (and I just went and checked before answering this comment). Are you maybe thinking of Prime (where you have to pay for it)?
If they had stayed married Elizabeth never would have suffered under the hands of her stepmother's husband Thomas Seymour, which may have changed her opinion of marriage as a whole. Potentially significantly changing English history if the throne never went to the Stuarts.
My guess is that nothing, after have had, at two, the experience of her father executing her mother and at eight, having the lesson repeated with her cousin Katherine Howard, would have favorably disposed Elizabeth to marriage. She told Robert Dudley at around the time of Katherine Howard's death, that she would never marry. I'm sure the experience with Seymour didn't help, but the decision had already been made.
I have always thought she would have given Henry several sons as well as daughters. She would have made him very happy and thus maybe he wouldn't have gotten so fat and suffered so. Anne would have taken great care of him. So he would have lived longer, probably out living his first son who was so sickly.
Possibly, yes. There was certainly no reason to think that at 24 she couldn't have gone on to have a palace full of children. The only issue would be if Henry was able to get her pregnant.
@@HistoryCalling I read this in some papers regarding Henry’s inability to have healthy children. “Henry VIII's first two wives experienced multiple pregnancies culminating in late-term miscarriage, stillbirth, or neonatal mortality. After his fortieth birthday, the king's mental and physical health underwent rapid deterioration. In this article, we argue that both his reproductive troubles and his midlife pathologies can be explained if Henry VIII were positive for the Kell blood group. A Kell negative woman who has multiple pregnancies with a Kell positive male will suffer repeated miscarriages and death of Kell positive foetuses and term infants that occur subsequent to the first Kell positive pregnancy. This pattern is consistent with the pregnancies of Katherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn. Additionally, Henry VIII may have suffered from McLeod syndrome, a genetic disorder of the Kell blood group system, which is a condition that causes physical and mental impairment consistent with his ailments”. That makes the biggest sense to me. Anne of Cleaves would have suffered the same fate as those before her trying to give Henry children.
I think the Duke of Howard would still be waiting in the wings, but Katherine Howard would be Henry’s mistress nothing more, poor girl. I heard the English people liked Anne, and she adapted well to English customs. Didn’t know she asked to go back to Cleves and Henry’s kids said no, that’s sad, maybe she knew she was at the end of her life? Love ❤ your channel, from the States
Hi Christine. Greetings from across the pond. A mistress would of course still be better than a dead wife, but perhaps if he was just offering her mistress status she'd have been able to say no.
So, if Henry DID die before Anne, would Anne have been able to rule England on her own, like how Queen Victoria used to rule on her own? Or is it not that simple? I’m American so, while English history is very fascinating for me, it is also super confusing. But your channel really helps to break down major events into more comprehendible information.
No, she would have been the dowager Queen, just as Catherine Parr was when Henry died and left her a widow. Edward VI was always next in line. The only instance I can think of off the top of my head of a wife taking her husband's throne is Catherine the Great in Russia.
Also American but if I understand it correctly she would not have reigned. The crown would pass to Henry's descendants still. If she'd had a boy she might have been regent but the boy would be the heir.
Oh yes, that's a good point about maybe being Regent which was always a vague possibility and the closest Anne could have come to reigning. Catherine Parr (who was English, far better educated and had been a very competent Regent while Henry was in France) wasn't Edward's Regent though which makes me think that he wouldn't have given his foreign, less well educated wife that position either.
I don't think she would have ruled England. The two wives that were actually had all the right qualities and so forth... The first and last Queen Catherines.
The only way I could see them staying married is if Henry didn't tell Cromwell he and Anne weren't intimate. The survivial of Cromwell and good grace of Anne might have meant when Edward became king, his uncles had far less power.
Good evening HC, a very interesting what if topic, I don't think it would of had much impact on English history, what I will say Ann was a very lucky lady In not staying married to Henry, she was a gentle kind hearted soul who deserved better in my opinion. as always I thank you for another superb topic.
Thanks Simon. Yes, if Anne had produced no children then the ultimate consequences would have been quite limited, though Katherine Howard might have had the chance to live to be an old lady.
I think not being married to Catherine Parr would have had a huge impact on Elizabeth. Parr helped to bring the siblings together and had Elizabeth as her ward when Henry died. Who knows how Elizabeth would have turned out without Seymores grubby hands around in those formative years.
They couldn’t risk her going abroad with her wealth and marrying some other European royal or noble. It also ensured she didn’t defame their father which would in turn have risked their legitimacy, especially Elizabeth. She was already on very shaky ground; the last thjnf she needed was people thinking her father was impotent, because that brings up questions of her own paternity
I’ve always thought Anne of Cleaves was too good for Henry, she was beautiful, smart, enjoyed many hobbies, very gentle, from what I’ve heard from other channels she was very soft spoken, she adored Princess Mary and Princess Elizabeth and they adored her . I guess you could say she’s the one that got away, in my little opinion, she was the perfect match for him.
@@HistoryCalling I have enjoyed all video s of your s which I have been able to watch so far. A case well researched n argued of the past is always interesting. Especially since I have been fascinated by Tudor England since my childhood but only have been limited to certain books and my own imagination. It's great to hear someone else ask a question n trying to pitch an answer together basis information we do have
Hi HC that was quite interesting. Makes me wonder what would Great Britain be like today if they had stayed married also has me wondering what about the other wives that he had executed or divorced how would that have changed history as you said would we have had Edward or Elizabeth as king and Queen respectfully. Also I do think she was better off being is Sister. he should have allowed her to go home to visit with certain expectations. Thanks HC look forward to next week.
Thanks Vernon. Yes, I think Katherine Howard and Catherine Parr would be mere footnotes to history, but they might have lived longer. I think Anne should have been allowed to return home too. It was cruel keeping her in England against her wishes.
I really feel for her; never being able to go back home must have been terrible. (That said, of course, she didn't get killed off by Henry, so there were some small mercies)
She was abused by her brother as was her sister. If she would of gone home her brother would of married her off to someone else and he would of kept her gift from Henry. I think she did better staying in England.
I just wonder if Anne being their would have protected Elizabeth I from whatever happened with Seymour. I don't know how bad it got, but it wasn't great. And maybe not having two queens get beheaded maybe Elizabeth would have been little more willing to get married? I dunno, just a thought.
Yes, others have speculated too on how Anne as a stepmother and no chance to see Katherine Howard executed or live with Thomas Seymour might have altered Elizabeth's psyche and it's a fascinating avenue to explore.
I understand your hesitation on entertaining historical what ifs? and alternate history, but honestly it's the most appealing thing about the game Crusader Kings III to me! Are you familiar with the 1632 book series (also known as the Ring of Fire series)? It's a historical fiction series that involves time travel and alternate history. If you've read any of the books I'd love to hear your thoughts on them!
Sadly I haven't played either Crusader Kings or read the 1632 series, but I just Googled it (the book) before I wrote this comment and it does look like a fascinating premise for a story.
@HistoryCalling I haven't read them but my husband powers through the audiobooks so I've overheard quite a bit, and I enjoy them. And because he loves the series and wants to hype it up, he wanted me to tell you that one of the best things about series is the author will cannonize fanfiction as small town news and even turn them subplots in the books themselves 😅 As far as Crusader Kings III goes...imagine if the Rurikids usurped the Mongolian Empire in the 13th century. That's the mad world I've created.
I think Anne kind of snuck up on Henry, much like Buster Douglas did on Mike Tyson, if you'll permit the boxing analogy. It was a similarly shocking upset after Henry had looked unbeatable in his first three matches (Jane was kind of a split decision, but Henry still held the belt). He returned to form against poor, overmatched Catherine Howard, but Parr simply outlasted him and Henry's final record fell to 3-2-1. But only Anne handed him the knockout; give her credit- she bearded the lion, and a hefty one at that. I think it was the creepy eyes, as per the unnerving animation seen here. Henry, I think, never fully recovered his basic Henryness, and after he looked into those spooky eyes there was little chance of any further heirs with the remaining talent.
She was probably Henry VIII's "luckiest" wife, in that she did well out of him financially and kept her head! It's interesting to speculate that Henry and Anne stayed married until his death, and Thomas Seymour and Catherine Parr could have married much earlier and had more children. In those circumstances would Seymour still have plotted to marry Elizabeth and plotted to control Edward VI?
I think if they had stayed married she would have prematurely died somehow. Either by giving birth or by Henry. He couldn’t stand having his wives live for long..
Henry the 8 liked her not, and called her a Flanders Mare, what made him think that he was such a good catch (apart from being a king) he was enormous, crippled, and no longer an oil painting either , he obviously had a very high opinion of himself. I personally think she had a good escape
I think the truth isn't complicated. Ann of Cleeves was a genuinely a nice person. She was naive & docile and agreeable, but no intellectual nor a hottie. Henry was good looking in his prime, and as a king he felt he deserved nothing the best of everything. Still, Harry was nice to her always, but not at all attracted to her. I think he honestly loved her as a sweet little sister that never screamed or pouted, or made demands. Even his daughers Bloody Mary & The Virgin Queen liked her. He never called her "the Mare of Flanders"... other people did. He wanted her respected, he made that clear.
I agree. I think initially it was to protect Henry's ego, so she couldn't say bad things about him, but I don't why she wasn't allowed to leave after his death.
Katherine Parr and Edward might have had more kids and their eldest might have survived passed early childhood if she had been younger. Also I think Edward and Elizabeth might not have been so protestant without Katherine P's influence. Anne Askew may not have been killed without the quest to destroy Katherine P
If Anne had borne a son, and he had become king after Edward, England may have eventually been in union with Cleves rather than Scotland! Although given how closely tied the British royal family was with the German states in the 19th and 20th centuries, that may not have looked too different to today
I don't think Anne would have gotten pregnant if she stayed married to Henry until his death. Elizabeth, IMO, would have turned out quite differently without the exposure to Seymour.
I am probably wrong as you never mentioned it but I thought that it was Catherine Parr who encouraged Henry to relegitimise Mary and Elizabeth. Could that not have lead to Lady Jane Grey being Queen for longer (presumably life rather than 9 days)
Good point! Jane Grey would probably not have been executed, as Mary (illegitemate) would never have made it to the throne. And Elizabeth wouldn't have become queen as well.Although, she would have had a better chance, as she was a protestant. I still don't understand why Anne was not allowed to go home after Henry's death.I can understand, however, why he didn't want it, his poor performance in the bedroom would have been the talk of the town all over Europe, even if Anne had remained discreed. I wonder anyway why there wasn't more debate about Henry's inability to produce a second son.Given the fact that he had fallen head over heals in love ( or whatever he felt) with Catherine Howard, he must have been eager to consumate this union( before and after the marriage). So he hadn't given up on the idea of sex and was attracted to women.Wasn't he embarresed that nothing happened? Maybe Viagra would have helped.😂
I think he was embarrassed, yes and that's a big part of the reason he didn't let Anne go. She could have told some very embarrassing stories about his bedroom performance.
Good point. Henry didn't actually re-legitimise them, but he did put them back in the succession and CP did encourage better relations with and treatment of the girls, so had she not married him who knows what would have happened. Had H&A not had any children though, perhaps Henry would have put his daughters back in the succession anyway in which case I don't see the outcome for Lady Jane being significantly different, but who knows? It's a fascinating avenue to go down at any rate.
@@HistoryCalling They were (after C.Paar's) intervention, again royal enough to claim the throne.I don't think Henry thought it through.He probably thought he'd make it to 80 and produce a bunch of sons.He can't have wished to see a catholic queen on the throne, not even a protestant one. Thinking about his love-life ( and that of his sisters) we can see that they all searched for true love.However poor or unfourtunate their attempts were, they were all trying to find a union similar to that of their parents.I don't like Henry7 for many reasons, but I think he loved his queen. Which is remarkable, given the circumstances of their union.
It always seemed to me that Henry really couldn't re-legitimize both his daughters. Either Mary was and Elizabeth wasn't, or Elizabeth was and Mary wasn't. I can't imagine he would have liked to bring that whole subject back to life. A can of worms.
I must say i certainly agree with your summations. Had they remained married, likely nothing of our current acceptance of the period; nor the line of succession would differ. I do still feel terrible for her
Yes, I don't think it would have made much of a difference to the overall arc of history, but who knows. I could be wrong of course. Yes, I feel very sad for her too that she wasn't allowed to go home. It was unnecessarily cruel.
England could very well have ended up controlling part of or all of Spain. After all, by some standards the son of Catherine would have had a better claim to the throne as a boy than Joanna did. If Catherine and Arthur had had a son within the first year of their marriage, that boy would have been around 15 when his grandfather died, and he may very well have inherited the crown of Aragon instead of Joanna, and he would have been of an age that he may have been able to rule in his own right from day one. Spain may still be divided into Aragon and Castile today
What do you think would have happened if Anne and Henry had stayed married? Let me know below and remember to check out my Patreon at www.patreon.com/historycalling and my Amazon storefront at www.amazon.com/shop/historycalling
If there were no male heir forthcoming in a reasonably short time (my guess is that Henry probably didn't think he was at fault for the non appearance of children), I think Henry would have divorced her to marry whichever one of the queen's maids of honor he had inevitably fallen in love with--maybe poor Catherine Howard all over again. I sort of can't imagine their staying married, even had Henry found her attractive. The likelihood of pregnancy was so low, that, given Henry wouldn't have deemed it his fault, that he would surely have ended the marriage at some point, even if not as early as 6 months after the wedding.
If Henry and Anne stayed married, Thomas Cromwell may not have been executed, and who knows what that would have meant for his nephew Richard and subsequent descendants?
I have a soft spot in my heart for Anne. She clearly understood how to maneuver a very tricky situation, and she left the marriage *alive* and with assets. And, from the portraits, she was charmingly pretty. I find her life story quite sad.
Her story is sad in many ways, but compared to Henry's other wives I think she was the luckiest (though admittedly the bar for luck here is pretty low).
Eh she didn’t have to deal with him and got richer for it 😂
@@HistoryCallingI like to think this woman this intelligent wise woman had an arrangement much like queen Victoria who was also known as Mrs. Brown.
She probably wasn't interested in being Henry's wife at the start. This new arrangement was the best that could be given to her under the circumstances of the time.
Her story is actually happy for a medieval woman!
Ive read that Anne requested to stay in England. Her brother was extremely physically abusive of both Anne & her Sister. As well as any funds she was given would belong to her brother. And she'd be back in a country where she'd have to stay veiled, give up cards and music and been immediately sold off into another marriage of her brothers choice. Henry did her a favor granting her request and writing it into her divorce to protect her from her brother demanding she return to Cleves. Smart Girl.
As the King's sister though she probably had more independence. Plus she couldn't be remarried as the "reason" for her annulment was her precontract to the Duke of Lorraine
It was the least he could do, Ann was charming and deserved a good life
I’ve always wondered what would have happened if Henry didn’t try to surprise her with the clandestine early visit. Her response to Henry would have been very different during a proper introduction, and he might not have been offended.
I’ve always wondered if that was really the reason Henry VIII had Thomas Cromwell executed. It seems odd that Anne and Henry could have an amicable annulment and then put Cromwell to death over it. I guess we’ll never really know, but something about the story seems incongruous to me.
Yes, I wonder too what might have happened if they'd gotten off to a better start. It just goes to show how important first impressions are.
If memory serves, Henry was put off by her foreign clothes & style. What if she’d gotten an English makeover before meeting him?
😂
She’d be dead. Just like the others.
@@Jami-Frankieshe also wasn't a "cultured woman" dance, music, card games, basically everyday life in the Tudor court wasn't allowed in Cleves. It's possible that Jane Seymour and Katherine Howard were more educated than her, and ironically Henry had a thing for educated women.
Better to be Henry’s “sister” than his wife. I think it’s a shame she wasn’t allowed to return home, but she seemed to be good at rolling with the punches, as the saying goes. Have a great weekend, HC! ❤✌️🌷
Yes, in many ways she had a lucky escape. Have a lovely weekend too :-)
I thought I read something that she wanted to stay in England. No?
@@rl3293yes, she chose to stay because she was a free, wealthy woman of high society in England and referred to as the King’s Sister, had she returned she would have be under her brother’s authority. She may have considered returning but in the end she continued at court and lived a much better life in England, a wealthy independent woman.
I read somewhere that if she returned home, Henry would have had to return her dowry and Henry was too cheap to do that.
@@doyeworrell1680 A gilded cage is still a cage.
I'm currently reading "Anna Duchess of Cleves - the King's 'beloved sister' " by Heather Darsie Highly recommend it! I'm from Germany, from what would have been Guelders at the time. I never expected to learn so much about rural Germany, when researching a wife of Henry VIII. 😂 I also learned that Anna's grandpa attacked and besieged my hometown, don't know how I feel about that 😂😂
I read your comment, and just bought your recommended book via Kindle.
A big thank you from southcentral Kentucky, U.S.A.
Anne of Cleves was clever enough to avoid being executed. Of course Henry VIII didn't want to end up in a war with the Protestant nations, so he offered her a way out and she accepted it. She outlived Henry and his five other wives, Catherine Parr the only other wife who outlived Henry, but died before Anne of Cleves.
Yes, she arguably had the best deal out of the lot of them. Catherine of Aragon did live longer (having just passed 50 when she died, while Anne was not quite 42), but Catherine had such a miserable life in many ways.
@HistoryCalling Both women were political pawns of their families, not unusual for the time. Henry didn't dare execute either of them as Katherine's Catholic support would have overwhelmed Henry and his fledgling Protestantism. Anne of Cleves's brother and the Protestant Alliance would have not only allied against Henry, but also questioned his divorce from K of A, likely rendering his son illegitimate as well as ER I, and leaving only Mary, a devout Catholic as a legitimate heir.
There is no way Anne of Cleves would have been executed as she was a member of a powerful family that were not under Henry’s authority. It’s no coincidence that the two women executed were English.
@@molybdomancer195 Pretty much what I wrote hours ago...
If they had stayed together? There be a really good Hofbrau near Hampton Court. Ha!
Anne of Cleves is one of those historical figures I would love to be able to sit down and just chat with. Her perspective must be fascinating. She's not going to solve any big historical mysteries or anything, but I am sure she'd have a lot of tales to tell. She may well have enjoyed being Queen and done a good job, if Henry hadn't been so blind to his own faults and thought he could do "better." And yes, things would have been far better for Catherine and Katherine as well as Princess Elizabeth.
Yes, she'd be an interesting dinner guest (assuming you could get her to spill the beans that it). Of course all the wives would be interesting. A roundtable discussion amongst them would be fascinating, but Catherine of Aragon would probably be tearing Anne Boleyn's hair out and Anne B would be doing the same to Jane Seymour.
Hello, history calling. I was on Reddit last night, looking over the great history RUclips channels. And they didn't have you on there. I was outrage 😡 how dare they not have the great history calling.
Haha, it's ok. I'll not take it personally :-)
This! I'm going to guess because some channels have just been around longer because the content from this creator is top tier.
Aww, thank you :-)
I'm so glad I discovered this channel a few days ago. I've learned so much, and just been happy as could be since then. :D
Thank you so much. I hope it continues to interest and entertain you :-)
History calling you are the best history RUclipsr ever! You are also my fave history RUclipsr. Thank you for uploading ever week on Friday at 7pm
Aww, thank you so much. That's very kind. Well with an endorsement like that, I hope you enjoy this video :-)
Agreed. Well said. 🤗
I really like this what it ...very informative ...thanks for the video!!!!❤❤❤
Hi HC, yes a very thoughtful hypothesis that I’ve never heard being considered before.
It could have changed the course of English history as you said.
It’s similar to the question if Arthur Tudor had survived.
Brilliant as always.
Thanks.
Thanks James. Yes, Arthur surviving would have meant an entirely different ballgame indeed. England might still be Catholic for a start.
If Catherine Parr had married Seymour earlier, they may have had several children who survived. As the Seymour’s were a prominent family, the children would have married into other prominent families and might have been rich and powerful.
I agree with you, due to Henry's fertility issues Anne would never have fallen pregnant and as in our timeline, I think it pretty much remains the same, with everything just happening slightly later. Anne herself is ultimately underrated, she played the game well and ultimately benefitted in ways none of his other wives did.
Anne made out like a bandit…much better than most of Henry’s wives. At the very least, she kept her head on straight and somehow got a very generous offering for the annulment. She outlived, not only Henry, but also the rest of his wives (I think), and she lived quite well in her own place in the English countryside. I think she did pretty good.
She did indeed. I just wish she'd been allowed to go home when she asked. It was cruel to keep her a kind of prisoner like that.
@@HistoryCalling It really sucked being a woman in the 16th century.
@@HistoryCalling But in the end, she did much better than most
I’ve just finished reading “The Mirror and the Light” so the timing of this video coming out is excellent for me! The book’s fictionalized account of the first meeting between Anna and Henry and Henry’s unchecked narcissism make the historical facts very approachable and intuitive as outcomes from the circumstances and personalities.
I've researched Anne for well over 40 years, and while I've learned nothing new from your videos, I can most certainly vouch for their accuracy. Moreover, I find your pragmatic, nonspeculative approach quite refreshing. You are to be greatly commended!
I love videos learning about how lucky (and wealthy) Anne was. By the way I visited Anne of Cleves’ tomb at Westminster Abbey this past May during holiday to England and Norway and thought of your channel!
I have always wondered what the purpose of designating Anne of Cleves as Henry's sister was? Since the marriage was annulled, wouldn't she have returned to her brother, who might have been eager to continue to use her as a pawn in making alliances? Or would she have been deemed a failure, tainted by Henry's rejection, and so, not worth much on the marriage mart. It does seem strange that, as a single, wealthy, young woman, no one seemed eager to marry her and take control of her lands. Nor did Henry require her to marry a foreign prince to make a state alliance as he did his true sister. I wonder what Anne's brother the Duke of Cleeves thought about Henry's repudiating the marriage, but keeping his sister?
I think it was to give her precedence over everyone in the land (except Henry, his wife and his children) and to sooth her ego a bit. She was still nominally in the royal family by doing this. It also made Henry look better.
Yes, I think her brother wanted her back, but he had no choice in the matter really. As Henry's sister, she was also a citizen of England and under Henry's control. This meant he could keep her there and prevent her slandering his bedroom performance all across Europe. If you see my video on whether she could have remarried, it discusses why she likely didn't.
Henry’s ego makes sense to me as his reason. Also he had most likely been in disfavor with the people because of his divorcing, and cutting off heads policy when it came to marriage. I think Anne of Cleves was most likely well respected and he knew if he treated her so badly he would of lost confidence with the people and most likely the people of her country. He didn’t want to make enemies. I truly believe it was all for himself.
@@traczebabe I agree, Henry's ego seems to have been all encompassing. And since he reportedly had a good amount of talent and good looks, it's not even surprising. What is surprising to me is that he couldn't find some pretext to visit Cleves in order to meet both the sisters and choose. A pilgrimage, homage, or diplomacy, - something rather than rely on second hand reports and a painting. It's strange to think that he might have been satisfied with the other sister - Amalia?
@@HistoryCallingwhile I fully agree with your reasoning on why HENRY didn't allow her to leave, I don't understand why Mary didn't let her leave when requested
“There are many things that we would throw away if we were not afraid that others might pick them up.” ― Oscar Wilde
Hiya HC. Am hoping you are well? I am going to watch now as I'm not allowed out to play this week 😊
Hi Chris. Hope you enjoy it and it makes up a little bit for having to stay in :-)
All well I hope, Chris?
@@stephencarrillo5905 Old man trouble is fixed now. Hernia. Too much hard work. Thanks for asking. I'm soooo Rock & Roll. LOL 🤣
I wonder if Anne of Cleves had produced a daughter and stayed married to Henry, would her daughter have followed Edward to the throne before Mary and Elizabeth?
Yes, I think so, as that child would have been legitimate.
How interesting--the idea of Anne and Henry staying together. As you point out, the last two wives would have been much better off. I do think, though, that Anne of Cleves was much too smart to have ever risked childbearing with Henry. It was the ultimate gamble, and I think she would have found ways to prevent that happening even if it had become possible. She was well aware of Henry's age and the stakes. (I just can't resist a sort of off-topic question: Anne of Cleves ultimately got possession of Hever Castle, the Boleyn family home? I had thought that Thomas Boleyn returned to court some time after the beheading of his daughter. How did the castle fall out of the family's hands?)
Thomas Boleyn died in 1539 with no surviving son to inherit his property and apparently Anne was allowed to lease Hever according to the Castle's website. www.hevercastle.co.uk/visit/hever-castle/owners/anne-of-cleves/#:~:text=Anne%20settled%20happily%20in%20England,part%20of%20her%20time%20here.
Thank you, HC. What a smart woman Anne was, very smart indeed.
"Anne of Cleves was much too smart to have ever risked childbearing with Henry" what utter nonsense are you on about?
I think Ann of Cleves most probably would have been able to give Henry more children.
@@allcatzAnd I kinda feel if she hadn't been able to produce a son she may have ended up like Anne Boelyn and Catherine Howard....
I just found your channel about week ago needless to say I'm obsessed I could listen to your narrations all day thank you❤
Thanks Angelina and welcome aboard :-)
Your videos are the highlight of my week. They got me through a period of depression and your voice is the most calming! Thank you!
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR VERY KIND DONATION TO THE CHANNEL USARMYGUY. I'm really sorry to hear you had to deal with depression. It's an awful illness and it doesn't help that it's invisible to other people too. I'm happy that I was able to help in some way though. I hope you're feeling much better now.
It would have made a difference to Elizabeth though. I don't think she was close to Katherine before she married Henry. Katherine shaped the person Elizabeth became in her later years, so it might have made a huge difference there
Yes, I think it would have really changed Elizabeth's life. She wouldn't have seen Katherine Howard executed and Thomas Seymour wouldn't have gotten near her.
Catherine Howard wouldn’t have died, and Catherine Parr would’ve married the Seymour she wanted.
Yes, I think those two women would have had very different fates for sure and I imagine CP would have married Thomas a lot sooner.
Not that being married to Seymour would have been a treat
CP wouldn’t have been the young Elizabeth’s stepmother so Seymour wouldn’t have had the chance to try to seduce her but I guess he would have found someone else to cheat with as it was the culture then
I absolutely love your videos. I know when I press the play button I am getting the most accurate information. Thank you for all your hard work, passion for history, and dedication to truth.
Thanks MK_Nay. I'm really happy you enjoy them :-)
I love Anne so much and she seems to have been happy after she left Henry’s house. She was free from the oppressive conditions of her brother, free from Henry’s immediate presence. I’m glad she got away.
Thank you for another video! Hope you have a great weekend 😊
Thanks Claire. Have a lovely weekend too. I hope wherever you are, you're in line for better weather than Northern Ireland is meant to get tomorrow - I think I'm going to have to stay in.
@@HistoryCalling Yes, thankfully we're in for some nice weather 😂
Rubbish weather sounds like a perfect reason to stay in with a good book
That was super fun to watch because everything seemed to work out so well for Anne, who got a very nice divorce settlement, though having to stay in England was clearly not her preference. However, I don't know if it would have been so happy for Anne if they'd remained married for longer than those few months. Henry wasn't very kind to wives who didn't produce an heir, even though it was probably his own inability to consummate the marriage which was at fault. If Anne had gone childless for more than a year, the king would still have found a way to put the blame on her and maybe the ultimate conclusion to the marriage would not have been as pretty. All in all, I think the way it worked out was probably the best scenario Anne could have hoped for. The only way it could have ended better would have been if Henry had died sooner, than he actually did, without having time to figure out a way to put the blame on her before ending the marriage. Sorry, my imagination isn't helping today. I used it all up on inventing a wacky plot involving the boys in the tower.
Thanks Anne. Yes, he might not have been amused that she didn't produce a child, but I also wonder if it was even starting to dawn on him by that point that he couldn't get anyone pregnant any more? Anne Boleyn was stating there were problems in that area all the way back in 1536. I agree though that Anne got the best deal possible.
@@HistoryCalling I seriously think that one of the reasons that Anne Boleyn was executed was for babbling about Henry's impotence, this was clearly a hard blow to his ego and even George was excecuted for reading the secret letter in where he mentioned that, had she kept quiet and be less brazen, maybe he would have not executed her, but just vanish her
Wonderful insightful content. If King Henry VIII would have found Anne of Cleves attractive it's possible that they would have had offspring that could have potentially inherited the throne and history would have been different but it never happened. At the end it was better for her to become his "sister" than his wife. She's one of my favourite historical figures and her official portraits are beautiful masterpieces. Your AI generated recreation from her iconic portrait by Hans Holbein The Younger is stunning. Amazing work. Thank you.
Thank you so much. Yes, those moving portraits are quite fun, though they freak a lot of people out. I think Anne's came out the nicest actually.
@@HistoryCalling while some may freak out I find them fascinating. I'm subscribed to your channel. Impeccable work.
You have a beautiful voice which i love listening to.
I love your alternate history as well.
just found this channel ... perfect to watch before bed :)
Another excellent video, thank you!
You're very welcome :-)
This is so interesting, I would love to see similar what if scenarios based on historical evidence. I would be interested in knowing the similar arrangements for other royal consorts, Mary's husband Philip
Philip is interesting because he was a King in his own right (and a man of course), so he was never in the same position of dependence on his spouse that Anne was. Basically, when Mary died he lost his influence in England because they had no children and if memory serves, that was one of the things stipulated by their marriage contract.
@@HistoryCalling Parliament was very careful about that part. There were all sorts of restrictions on what he was permitted to do with their children, had there been any.
Anna von Kleves is one of my favorite historical figures. Having seen the theories about Henry’s health, I think Anne would have been unlikely to have a boy who was any healthier than Edward. Even his daughters had health problems. I think the only change in the succession if she’d gotten pregnant would have been another baby sister. I don’t think a prince would have survived very long. But seeing how loving and devoted a stepmother Anne was, I think her own children never would have lacked for love or care.
I don't think Edward was thought sickly before he contracted what is often thought to be tuberculosis. Whether Henry's children had fundamentally compromised constitutions or whether the acute stress all of them had suffered had a weakening effect is a good question.
The way that I come home on Friday's from a week of teaching 5 sections of history and the first thing that I do is look to see if you posted a video.
Thank you so much Reese :-)
You could say Anne of Cleves was the luckiest of all of Henry's wifes. Being able to call yourself his sister and be wealthy is definitely better than being beheaded or dying in childbirth👑👸🤴
Absolutely yes and he was nicer to her than to his actual sisters.
Thanks. Fyi . I didn't receive a notification on this . But was expecting a video so looked for it .
Oh and btw , i looked at your matilda video. ( very good ) oh and i passed on your thanks to me friend . ( she was delighted) .
Thanks Shane. That's so odd that you didn't get a notification. I get told that by people sometimes and I don't understand how it happens. Have you double checked you definitely have all notifications switched on? Honestly though, sometimes YT just has glitches. For example, I'm having problems with the end cards not showing or not showing properly on the video I did on Katherine Howard a few weeks ago and 25 days and numerous messages to YT support later, it's still not fixed. 😭
@HistoryCalling oh yes, I have checked . But to ve honest, it happens with several channels I follow. .
I have heard some say . If you unsubcribe and then subscribe and push the bell, all notifications again. That may help .
But you mentioned others had the issue. For example, last Friday. It came almost immediately. ( notification ) this Friday it didn't.
It's probably RUclipss system. Lagging or malfunctioning. ..I know people often forget to push the all notifications button. Some of it must be that. ..( but not all )
When i was in college my English History professor said he believed the reason Ann was not allowed to return to Cleve’s was to ensure that she didn’t marry into a another European monarchy and having children with them. Or simply Henry wanted to see where his money was going. Is this a possible scenario or do you feel he was mistaken?
Totally agree with him - if she would have remarried into another royal house, and given birth to a brood of kids (sons especially) it would’ve made Henry’s likely inability to consummate at this point blatantly obvious and shown she wasn’t as unattractive as Henry suggested..
Also with the safety associated with remarrying into another house, it’s likely she would’ve felt safe enough to express her true feelings on Henry… which wouldn’t have reflected well on him lol.
Also the settlement she received gave her power and independence… I would imagine the thought of freedom from a husband, and from a brother that would immediately marry her off again was the best outcome she could hope for. Sad she couldn’t go home to visit with her settlement. Considering the other wives of H8 - she definitely had the best end result of their short lived marriage.
Yes, I think protecting Henry's ego was a big part of that decision, although why she wasn't allowed to go home after his death is beyond me.
Hi, awesome live history video on Henry the eighth and Anne of Cleves. I enjoyed it. How are you doing? How is the weather where you are? I'm doing well. We have beautiful weather here in Ontario, Canada. Have a great day. See you next video 😊
Thanks Michelle. I think it's gonna rain across the whole country tomorrow which is a bit of a bummer. Still, Autumn in NI - what can you do? I suppose complaining about it is like complaining about snow in Canada in the winter. It's just inevitable that it's going to happen. :-)
@HistoryCalling I agree with you. My father lived in Northern Ireland. He told me about the weather when he lived there back in the 1960s. I never been to Northern Ireland. Have you ever been to Canada?
Interesting food for thought, HC. I wonder if Thomas Cromwell might have kept his head had the union of Henry and Anne not turned into such a debacle.There were other factors in his downfall, of course. As you say, we'll never know.
THANK YOU SO MUCH STEPHEN FOR DONATING TO THE CHANNEL. You're always very generous :-) Yes, I wonder too if Cromwell would have lasted longer if the Cleves' marriage had been one of his great successes instead of one of his great failures.
Just what I posted as well. I may sue you for plagiarism, old boy. 🤣
@@chrisbanks6659 🤣🤣The sentence could be a case of ale instead of the paltry pint I already owe you. Better mind my p's and q's.
@@stephencarrillo5905 To quote a film (somewhere) - "I'd buy that for a dollar."
It makes me wonder what Catherine Howard could have done, if she'd lived a full life. Would we know her name? Would she have married well?
Honestly, I think she'd probably have been a footnote in history but she'd hopefully have had a far better, far longer life.
HC fully agree
Stoked! New video just in time to cook dinner to! ♥️
Hope it was tasty (dinner and the video!)
@@HistoryCallingit was and still is! Just made dinner again while rewatching ☺️
Excellent video!
Thomas Cromwell was certainly praying for that outcome. 😂
Thanks! For another great video.
THANK YOU SO MUCH SANDRA, FOR YOUR VERY KIND DONATION. I'm glad you enjoyed my little foray into an historical 'what if'. :-)
I wonder what would have happened to Thomas Cromwell if Henry remained married to Anne? Would it have been business as usual, or would Cromwell's enemies still had taken him down at some point?
I actually think the biggest change would've been that Thomas Cromwell would not have been so easy to supplant and his effect on government policy was profound and pragmatic. I think we would've seen a much calmer end to Henry and beginning of young Edward, and that may very well have had deep ramifications on the reigns of all three of the Tudor children.
I've often thought of this myself -- she was the one of his wives who might have produced the healtthy children he so wanted.
She might have done, yes. If he'd married her 8 or 9 years earlier he might have been more likely to be able to get her pregnant too (although I don't like teenage marriages, but that was the way of the world then).
Brilliant as usual ❤
Oh and at the risk of being crass, if Anne’s marriage to Henry was never consummated, then in my opinion, she was indeed the most fortunate of his wives. With the exception of Catherine of Aragon, there seems to be a bit of an icky age gap.
Yes, I think she was indeed. If we accept Anne Boleyn's birth as being in 1501 (which I know many people don't - they say she was born in 1507) then I don't think their 10 year gap was bad, but as for the rest of them, yes the gaps were pretty big and very big in the case of Katherine Howard.
Three more things:
1. My female cat gave birth to four kittens; would you like to be A God mother to them ?
2. Did you know that Richard III marriage with Anne might not be with the ups; how hilarious it is; he says his older brother marriage is illegal but his marriage is questionable.
3.There is this old couple who have two wild turkeys, that, they named: "No" and "Stop it".
Oh course to the kitty godmother position. Thank you very much.
Yes, I do know about Richard not bothering to get the Papal annulment sorted out. Very strange indeed.
What odd names for turkeys, or indeed any creature :-)
I like to think Anne of Cleves remembered how he mistreated Catherine and Anne. She certainly didn’t want to lose her head. Henry verbally abused her. She was clever in signing the annulment papers. She lived a good life.
Thank you. A a lovely weekend.
Thanks Leticia. Yes, I think the fates of his previous wives must have been on her mind and she was wise to take the safe way out when offered to her.
He was always quite reasonable towards her it was the difference between her portrait and the reality . If he could have done his marital duty they would have jogged along because he did have one son xxx
Yes, he treated her well all things considered (mind you, Henry's version of 'treating them well' was just to not kill them).
Ha Ha🤣@@HistoryCalling
@@HistoryCalling oh yes however difference between killing a young woman ( women ) of his country , messing with Cleves added a bit more or an expensive risk . She was so lucky xxx
I have a soft spot for Anne too.
We have a family lineage that says a very very distant ancestor was one of the 4 men dispatched to accompany Anne to England.
No one knows for certain if it's true but it's fun to talk about!
I think she was the lucky, smart and kept her witts to come away with such a good outcome.
Good evening to history calling from Bea
Hi Bea. Hope you're in a Tudor mood :-)
Enjoy your weekend from Bea
Thank you. You too. :-)
Thank you.
I wish we had her memoirs - can you imagine?
I know. If they showed up now, they'd sell better than Prince Harry's! :-)
@@HistoryCalling - yep
Honestly, I think that if Henry had only had four wives and beheaded one of them instead of having six and beheading two of them, he wouldn’t be nearly as famous. Which means Hampton Court would probably be less of a tourist draw and we wouldn’t have nearly the amount of television about the Tudors as we get. In fact, without the six wives (and assuming Anne didn’t give birth to a Tudor king) it’s possible that the Stuarts would be the more famous dynasty today. Although Henry would still have been known for founding the Church of England, the Stuarts had the gunpowder plot, the civil war, and the glorious revolution.
Yes, it is a wonder to me sometimes that the Stuarts aren't more popular. They really did have a lot going on and the Jacobite issue rumbled on for over a century, which was even longer than the Wars of the Roses.
Divorced, beheaded, died, beheaded, beheaded, survived…
Anne probably ended up better off not staying married to Henry.
Thanks!
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR VERY KIND DONATION TO THE CHANNEL ZACK. Hope you enjoyed my little foray into an historical 'what if ...?' :-)
@@HistoryCalling it was fun! But it's my favorite period of history!
Would you ever consider doing Anne Boleyn or Cathrine Howard if they stayed as queen of England either one of them or if they got an annulment and sent away instead of getting killed how their life would have ended
Probably not to be honest. The reason I chose Anne of Cleves is because we have the marriage settlement document showing what ought to have happened and so that gave me a foothold in real history to base the video on.
I was just talking about Anne w a friend! Have a nice Friday :))
Ah, well then I have good timing this week. I hope you enjoy the vid. Have a lovely Friday too.
@@HistoryCallingWhy many thanks :) also, have you finished the 6th season of Outlander? (I don’t yet have access to the 7th bc I’m waiting for it to get to Netflix)
No I don't have Starz, so I haven't seen past season 5 :-(
@@HistoryCallingoh nein :( Netflix has it till s. 6, but idk if you have it)
I don't have s6 on Netflix (and I just went and checked before answering this comment). Are you maybe thinking of Prime (where you have to pay for it)?
If they had stayed married Elizabeth never would have suffered under the hands of her stepmother's husband Thomas Seymour, which may have changed her opinion of marriage as a whole. Potentially significantly changing English history if the throne never went to the Stuarts.
My guess is that nothing, after have had, at two, the experience of her father executing her mother and at eight, having the lesson repeated with her cousin Katherine Howard, would have favorably disposed Elizabeth to marriage. She told Robert Dudley at around the time of Katherine Howard's death, that she would never marry. I'm sure the experience with Seymour didn't help, but the decision had already been made.
I have always thought she would have given Henry several sons as well as daughters. She would have made him very happy and thus maybe he wouldn't have gotten so fat and suffered so. Anne would have taken great care of him. So he would have lived longer, probably out living his first son who was so sickly.
Possibly, yes. There was certainly no reason to think that at 24 she couldn't have gone on to have a palace full of children. The only issue would be if Henry was able to get her pregnant.
@@HistoryCalling I read this in some papers regarding Henry’s inability to have healthy children. “Henry VIII's first two wives experienced multiple pregnancies culminating in late-term miscarriage, stillbirth, or neonatal mortality. After his fortieth birthday, the king's mental and physical health underwent rapid deterioration. In this article, we argue that both his reproductive troubles and his midlife pathologies can be explained if Henry VIII were positive for the Kell blood group. A Kell negative woman who has multiple pregnancies with a Kell positive male will suffer repeated miscarriages and death of Kell positive foetuses and term infants that occur subsequent to the first Kell positive pregnancy. This pattern is consistent with the pregnancies of Katherine of Aragon and Anne Boleyn. Additionally, Henry VIII may have suffered from McLeod syndrome, a genetic disorder of the Kell blood group system, which is a condition that causes physical and mental impairment consistent with his ailments”. That makes the biggest sense to me. Anne of Cleaves would have suffered the same fate as those before her trying to give Henry children.
I'm not sure Edward was considered sickly until he contracted his final illness.
I would definitely love to know more about her before being noticed by Cromwell.
I think the Duke of Howard would still be waiting in the wings, but Katherine Howard would be Henry’s mistress nothing more, poor girl. I heard the English people liked Anne, and she adapted well to English customs. Didn’t know she asked to go back to Cleves and Henry’s kids said no, that’s sad, maybe she knew she was at the end of her life? Love ❤ your channel, from the States
Thomas Howard was Duke of NORFOLK.
Thanks, I knew that looked weird when I wrote it, long day
Hi Christine. Greetings from across the pond. A mistress would of course still be better than a dead wife, but perhaps if he was just offering her mistress status she'd have been able to say no.
So, if Henry DID die before Anne, would Anne have been able to rule England on her own, like how Queen Victoria used to rule on her own? Or is it not that simple? I’m American so, while English history is very fascinating for me, it is also super confusing. But your channel really helps to break down major events into more comprehendible information.
No, she would have been the dowager Queen, just as Catherine Parr was when Henry died and left her a widow. Edward VI was always next in line. The only instance I can think of off the top of my head of a wife taking her husband's throne is Catherine the Great in Russia.
Also American but if I understand it correctly she would not have reigned. The crown would pass to Henry's descendants still. If she'd had a boy she might have been regent but the boy would be the heir.
Oh yes, that's a good point about maybe being Regent which was always a vague possibility and the closest Anne could have come to reigning. Catherine Parr (who was English, far better educated and had been a very competent Regent while Henry was in France) wasn't Edward's Regent though which makes me think that he wouldn't have given his foreign, less well educated wife that position either.
@@notme7090 No, even if Anne had had a male child, he would have been second in line to Henry's older son Edward VI.
I don't think she would have ruled England. The two wives that were actually had all the right qualities and so forth... The first and last Queen Catherines.
The only way I could see them staying married is if Henry didn't tell Cromwell he and Anne weren't intimate. The survivial of Cromwell and good grace of Anne might have meant when Edward became king, his uncles had far less power.
Good evening HC, a very interesting what if topic, I don't think it would of had much impact on English history, what I will say Ann was a very lucky lady In not staying married to Henry, she was a gentle kind hearted soul who deserved better in my opinion. as always I thank you for another superb topic.
Thanks Simon. Yes, if Anne had produced no children then the ultimate consequences would have been quite limited, though Katherine Howard might have had the chance to live to be an old lady.
I think not being married to Catherine Parr would have had a huge impact on Elizabeth. Parr helped to bring the siblings together and had Elizabeth as her ward when Henry died. Who knows how Elizabeth would have turned out without Seymores grubby hands around in those formative years.
I always wanted to know why her step children said no to her leaving. I mean Anne going home would have no skin on their nose especially the girls.
They couldn’t risk her going abroad with her wealth and marrying some other European royal or noble. It also ensured she didn’t defame their father which would in turn have risked their legitimacy, especially Elizabeth. She was already on very shaky ground; the last thjnf she needed was people thinking her father was impotent, because that brings up questions of her own paternity
There was some thought that she was a hostage for her brother John, the Duke of Cleve's continued alliance with England.
I’ve always thought Anne of Cleaves was too good for Henry, she was beautiful, smart, enjoyed many hobbies, very gentle, from what I’ve heard from other channels she was very soft spoken, she adored Princess Mary and Princess Elizabeth and they adored her . I guess you could say she’s the one that got away, in my little opinion, she was the perfect match for him.
Thanks
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR SO KINDLY DONATING TO THE CHANNEL FRANZISKAOHRT. I hope you enjoyed this week's little historical what if.
@@HistoryCalling I have enjoyed all video s of your s which I have been able to watch so far. A case well researched n argued of the past is always interesting. Especially since I have been fascinated by Tudor England since my childhood but only have been limited to certain books and my own imagination. It's great to hear someone else ask a question n trying to pitch an answer together basis information we do have
Hi HC that was quite interesting. Makes me wonder what would Great Britain be like today if they had stayed married also has me wondering what about the other wives that he had executed or divorced how would that have changed history as you said would we have had Edward or Elizabeth as king and Queen respectfully. Also I do think she was better off being is Sister. he should have allowed her to go home to visit with certain expectations. Thanks HC look forward to next week.
Thanks Vernon. Yes, I think Katherine Howard and Catherine Parr would be mere footnotes to history, but they might have lived longer. I think Anne should have been allowed to return home too. It was cruel keeping her in England against her wishes.
I really feel for her; never being able to go back home must have been terrible. (That said, of course, she didn't get killed off by Henry, so there were some small mercies)
Yes, she won in some ways and lost in others. As you say though, at least she kept her head.
She was abused by her brother as was her sister. If she would of gone home her brother would of married her off to someone else and he would of kept her gift from Henry. I think she did better staying in England.
I just wonder if Anne being their would have protected Elizabeth I from whatever happened with Seymour. I don't know how bad it got, but it wasn't great. And maybe not having two queens get beheaded maybe Elizabeth would have been little more willing to get married? I dunno, just a thought.
Yes, others have speculated too on how Anne as a stepmother and no chance to see Katherine Howard executed or live with Thomas Seymour might have altered Elizabeth's psyche and it's a fascinating avenue to explore.
I understand your hesitation on entertaining historical what ifs? and alternate history, but honestly it's the most appealing thing about the game Crusader Kings III to me!
Are you familiar with the 1632 book series (also known as the Ring of Fire series)? It's a historical fiction series that involves time travel and alternate history. If you've read any of the books I'd love to hear your thoughts on them!
Sadly I haven't played either Crusader Kings or read the 1632 series, but I just Googled it (the book) before I wrote this comment and it does look like a fascinating premise for a story.
@HistoryCalling I haven't read them but my husband powers through the audiobooks so I've overheard quite a bit, and I enjoy them. And because he loves the series and wants to hype it up, he wanted me to tell you that one of the best things about series is the author will cannonize fanfiction as small town news and even turn them subplots in the books themselves 😅
As far as Crusader Kings III goes...imagine if the Rurikids usurped the Mongolian Empire in the 13th century. That's the mad world I've created.
She was the one that got away! And fared best! A wealthy woman with a long life!
She came out well enough, but she was only 41 when she passed.
Anyone know where those waxworks are?
Warwick Castle :-)
I think Anne kind of snuck up on Henry, much like Buster Douglas did on Mike Tyson, if you'll permit the boxing analogy. It was a similarly shocking upset after Henry had looked unbeatable in his first three matches (Jane was kind of a split decision, but Henry still held the belt). He returned to form against poor, overmatched Catherine Howard, but Parr simply outlasted him and Henry's final record fell to 3-2-1. But only Anne handed him the knockout; give her credit- she bearded the lion, and a hefty one at that. I think it was the creepy eyes, as per the unnerving animation seen here. Henry, I think, never fully recovered his basic Henryness, and after he looked into those spooky eyes there was little chance of any further heirs with the remaining talent.
She was probably Henry VIII's "luckiest" wife, in that she did well out of him financially and kept her head! It's interesting to speculate that Henry and Anne stayed married until his death, and Thomas Seymour and Catherine Parr could have married much earlier and had more children. In those circumstances would Seymour still have plotted to marry Elizabeth and plotted to control Edward VI?
I realized Henry married Catherine, left her for Anne(Boleyn), who he murdered, then later married Anne, whom he left for Katherine, who he murdered 😮
I think if they had stayed married she would have prematurely died somehow. Either by giving birth or by Henry. He couldn’t stand having his wives live for long..
Yes, being his wife was a dodgy prospect indeed.
This was very interesting actually!!!!! Who knew!!
Thanks Wendy. Yes, it's one of those documents that doesn't get a lot of attention, but it makes for interesting reading.
@HistoryCalling it definatly was especially when we read books and they bring up a marrige contract it was interesting to learn!!!
Henry the 8 liked her not, and called her a Flanders Mare, what made him think that he was such a good catch (apart from being a king) he was
enormous, crippled, and no longer an oil painting either , he obviously had a very high opinion of himself. I personally think she had a good escape
The Flanders mare remark only appeared years later, it's doubtful if Henry actually said it. Otherwise, yes, not a nice guy.
I think the truth isn't complicated. Ann of Cleeves was a genuinely a nice person. She was naive & docile and agreeable, but no intellectual nor a hottie. Henry was good looking in his prime, and as a king he felt he deserved nothing the best of everything. Still, Harry was nice to her always, but not at all attracted to her. I think he honestly loved her as a sweet little sister that never screamed or pouted, or made demands. Even his daughers Bloody Mary & The Virgin Queen liked her. He never called her "the Mare of Flanders"... other people did. He wanted her respected, he made that clear.
She was a clever cookie! Henry did her a favour.
I don’t understand why she wasn’t allowed to leave England. She was kind of like a prisoner.
I agree. I think initially it was to protect Henry's ego, so she couldn't say bad things about him, but I don't why she wasn't allowed to leave after his death.
Katherine Parr and Edward might have had more kids and their eldest might have survived passed early childhood if she had been younger. Also I think Edward and Elizabeth might not have been so protestant without Katherine P's influence. Anne Askew may not have been killed without the quest to destroy Katherine P
Her name should have gone down in history as: "Anne of Clevers"
If Anne had borne a son, and he had become king after Edward, England may have eventually been in union with Cleves rather than Scotland! Although given how closely tied the British royal family was with the German states in the 19th and 20th centuries, that may not have looked too different to today
I don't think Anne would have gotten pregnant if she stayed married to Henry until his death. Elizabeth, IMO, would have turned out quite differently without the exposure to Seymour.
I am probably wrong as you never mentioned it but I thought that it was Catherine Parr who encouraged Henry to relegitimise Mary and Elizabeth. Could that not have lead to Lady Jane Grey being Queen for longer (presumably life rather than 9 days)
Good point! Jane Grey would probably not have been executed, as Mary (illegitemate) would never have made it to the throne. And Elizabeth wouldn't have become queen as well.Although, she would have had a better chance, as she was a protestant.
I still don't understand why Anne was not allowed to go home after Henry's death.I can understand, however, why he didn't want it, his poor performance in the bedroom would have been the talk of the town all over Europe, even if Anne had remained discreed.
I wonder anyway why there wasn't more debate about Henry's inability to produce a second son.Given the fact that he had fallen head over heals in love ( or whatever he felt) with Catherine Howard, he must have been eager to consumate this union( before and after the marriage).
So he hadn't given up on the idea of sex and was attracted to women.Wasn't he embarresed that nothing happened? Maybe Viagra would have helped.😂
I think he was embarrassed, yes and that's a big part of the reason he didn't let Anne go. She could have told some very embarrassing stories about his bedroom performance.
Good point. Henry didn't actually re-legitimise them, but he did put them back in the succession and CP did encourage better relations with and treatment of the girls, so had she not married him who knows what would have happened. Had H&A not had any children though, perhaps Henry would have put his daughters back in the succession anyway in which case I don't see the outcome for Lady Jane being significantly different, but who knows? It's a fascinating avenue to go down at any rate.
@@HistoryCalling
They were (after C.Paar's) intervention, again royal enough to claim the throne.I don't think Henry thought it through.He probably thought he'd make it to 80 and produce a bunch of sons.He can't have wished to see a catholic queen on the throne, not even a protestant one.
Thinking about his love-life ( and that of his sisters) we can see that they all searched for true love.However poor or unfourtunate their attempts were, they were all trying to find a union similar to that of their parents.I don't like Henry7 for many reasons, but I think he loved his queen. Which is remarkable, given the circumstances of their union.
It always seemed to me that Henry really couldn't re-legitimize both his daughters. Either Mary was and Elizabeth wasn't, or Elizabeth was and Mary wasn't. I can't imagine he would have liked to bring that whole subject back to life. A can of worms.
I must say i certainly agree with your summations. Had they remained married, likely nothing of our current acceptance of the period; nor the line of succession would differ.
I do still feel terrible for her
Yes, I don't think it would have made much of a difference to the overall arc of history, but who knows. I could be wrong of course. Yes, I feel very sad for her too that she wasn't allowed to go home. It was unnecessarily cruel.
She was very lucky things went badly…probably saved her life.
Anne was the lucky one! But the greatest Tudor what if for me is what would British History have been like if Arthur hadn't died and produced children
England could very well have ended up controlling part of or all of Spain. After all, by some standards the son of Catherine would have had a better claim to the throne as a boy than Joanna did. If Catherine and Arthur had had a son within the first year of their marriage, that boy would have been around 15 when his grandfather died, and he may very well have inherited the crown of Aragon instead of Joanna, and he would have been of an age that he may have been able to rule in his own right from day one. Spain may still be divided into Aragon and Castile today
I think Anna would be the most practical Queen of all King Henry’s wives. Essentially, more of a wife than a Queen.
Yes, I think so too. Not seeing Katherine Howard executed and not coming into Thomas Seymour's orbit could have made all the difference there.