I made paper cartridges for my Pedersoli Indian trade gun this week and shot them today. After not being able to hit an Oldsmobile at 10 yrds with roundball before, I was able to hit an adhesive sticker target at 25 yrds! The "ball first then paper" thing is not only legitimate....it's f'in macaroni !
Washington Post or NYT will do nicely for your purposes. Keep up the good work. I enjoy your videos. I’ll be picking up a Charleville as soon as they get back in stock. An old grunt here.
Thank you 11bangbang for actually recreating the historic process of the paper cartridge. Really excited to see the accuracy of what this load can achieve. If you haven't notice, capandball has created a video already on this and of course, he is standing while shooting it. But I am very curious of how it performs on a bench, rested. In addition, this can also show everyone the proof of how indian guns are durable just like the Italian counterparts. Thank you and be safe.
No problem man So I just went and watched the video you were talking about and it appears that me and ol capandball drew the same conclusion on what kind of charge, ball and cartridge to use. I will warn you it could be a month or so until I get the test video out. We are currently in the process of acquiring filming and audio recording equipment for the channel and we want it to be the best quality we can make it. By the way thank you for the Idea for this test. I think it'll be alot of fun and very telling of the accuracy potential of these sweet old guns.
You do nice work! Best thing about paper cartridges is it affords you the opportunity to get off a lot of shots as did the military at the time. Can’t do that with rifled barrels which has given me a new appreciation for smooth bores. Me I like plinking.
Actually, there were paper cartridges for rifles. There are accounts of the American militiamen using homemade ones. The British did it with the baker rifle.
Mad thanks to you and the channel. I’m a blackpowder fan but would have never bought a Charleville without your ‘push’! Just back from the 1st range session. Located some Swiss 1.5 and loaded per your video. I could actually smell the ‘redcoats’ thru the smoke! 😊👍
If i remembered right, the reason why manuals called for so much powder was do to how they made the powder. It had more volume to it. In the 1800s the manufacturing change. They started pressing powder into pucks and then smashed it up into grains. This made for a much denser powder. So less powder was sufficient. BTW This technique is still used today. 150-180 grains is way too much if you are using modern powder.
110 Goex works for me. 5grains for prime, 5 grains for waste (bite into the powder if you are not wanting to fondle cartridge instead of charge cartridge).
This is exactly correct. J.M. Spearman in "The British Gunner" notes that it was noted in 1828 that between 1775 and 1828 British gunpowder doubled in strength. This is why you cannot look at 18th century load data and try to replicate it today - the 18th century charges were *considerably larger* compared to 19th century charges, simply because the powder was weaker.
@@wittsullivan8130 willow is something kinda between a tree and a reed and because of this it has no annual rings giving a more consistent charcoal I am from Somerset in the UK 30mile from one of the biggest willow farms it grows 70 percent of the world's used willow it is also very fast growing like a crop hope this is of some help and not just waffle
I've found that the thin paper bags that prescriptions come in from the pharmacy work very well for cartridges. You can get 4 cartridge sheets out of one bag.
I just ordered my first ever flintlock, it’s a 1777 Charleville from Loyalist arms. I’m hoping that I made the right choice. Your video have taught me a lot about making paper cartridges. I have a 50 round kit coming from Jefferson Arsenal and .648 and .675 cal round balls from Track of the Wolf. The Musket should be here in December. I appreciate your videos and any advice for a newbie would be greatly appreciated!
The French would have loaded it just like the British. During the American War of Independence, we started using the cartridge design of the British Empire until the French had become officially involved. A ball would be inside the paper cartridge for both the 1766 and 1777 model Charleville muskets. During the War of 1812, we continued to use the French cartridge design since our 1795 springfields are exact copies of the 1766 Charleville.
A website called Marty's arms makes multi cavity roundball molds in any diameter under an inch. He's also pretty easy to deal with and ships out within 2-3 days
I have a question if I were to use a .60 caliber round ball what would you recommend for a low power to normal power powder charge using Swiss 1 1/2 blackpowder ? The same question goes for a .69 caliber ball. I just bought my 1777 Charleville musket from military heritage and am kind of new to finding powder charges for it.
I won’t recommend anything...BUT I just came from the range after shooting my Charleville during my very first range session.. tested Swiss 1 1/2 at 110g weighed with .648 paper cartridge. 50 round without a hiccup. I smell ‘redcoats’ and blackpowder! 😊 Start at 80 if you please.
About to 1/4"-28 tap my vents for the new Charleville Set from Heritage "TODAY!" I will be a regular customer at Heritage! Once you smell Black Powder, You're HOOKED!
What is the TEMPLATE measurements ... My Access Heritage 1766 musket is on the way --- and I'm trying to narrow down all the supplies I need to buy to get this up and running ... I know I have to drill the side vent hole -- got that ... I've built AR platforms and been around firearms before -- but this is my 1st musket .... just want to do this correctly ... and get my Blue& whites on "wink, wink" and hit the field ...
My favorite paper is "Packing Paper" from the Dollar store. It is cheap, you get 20 sheets of 20 inch X 20 inch, and I find it easier to tear with my teeth. I use a 5/8 dowel as the "former". I also use a glue stick, but I run the glue along the entire length of the diagonal side. This tends to help keep that edge together. It works for me. Give it a try and tell me how it works for you.
Only thing a I noticed about loading ball then paper is sometimes I can’t tell if I got all the powder out of the paper and I feel like I’m shorting myself if I don’t
That's the way you do it, or you have to punch the paper with a vent pick before applying the cap. I'm assuming you mold it doen with a two piece wooden dowel and hole mold while they are damp, them let them dry
I feel like this is a dumb question, is there any way to waterproof the paper cartridges? I read somewhere (cant find the source now) that you could dip them in wax afterwards and it helps waterproof them.
I have heard this is well. I had read about it in I believe Robert Rogers's journal of where he had his men put wax on their cartridges but it could have been another book. I would assume that this would make them a much more waterproof cartridge
Actually, you should be loading your lead balls with the sprew up. The rear of the slug is what steers the bullet. The standard powder loads were from approximately 110 grains, which allowed about 10 grains taken up by the priming of the pan. 150 - 180 grains is far too large a charge. To make tieing off the cartridge, try using a choking string to pre-tighten the paper crimp. It makes the process alot easier. Check out duelist1954's channel regarding this process, I believe you will find it very enlightening.
On another one of your short videos, you recommend .638 ball. Was that a misquote? Did you mean .648 as on this video. I watched some other channels as well and they did not mention the correct diameter and I tried .672. Actually it was kind of comical watching this 73 year old fart fighting the ramrod. This video is awesome! I am never too old to learn something new and I Thank You!
I just ordered .648 round balls from TofTW.. I was going to make my ctgs with 2F, but I have some 1F also. Will it really matter.?? What do you recommend Ethan??
I make thousands of blanks and hundreds of ball rounds... So i have gone toward some faster step saving techniques. 1, Masking paper from the paint department is about the right width to get two templated across. I pull, fold, fold, fold, fold,..... Fold. Then i run a sharp knife over both folded edges making 26-30 papers. Then i cut the diagonal making 52 to 60 papers. 2, i use a hollow mold (a pipe) plugged to my charge 120grains for this musket is my preference. Scoop up the powder in an open box. 3, roll paper around the mold 4, slip the mold back slightly to press in the ball. Tie tip and waist 5, invert and remove mold 6, fold down the tail I've gotten that down to 30 seconds a live round and 15seconds a blank... After the bulk cut of paper. Saves the paper cutter and extra handling. May not be for everyone.
Paper back then was not Wood Based as is Today it was more Linen/Cotton Based.I am going to try to find Cotton Rag paper to see what results I get. And try to also make the Washington's Special Recipe Round "Ye Olde Buck N Ball" Cartridge.
The biggest reason for me to pre package loads like this is just to keep myself from dry balling like the idiot I am. I have done that recently with my 1842 musket and it's not a good feeling
Hey guys I got a question hopefully y'all can answer for me. I'm thinking of trying my 1795 Springfield for bird hunting. Any idea what size wads I should use?
it is 69 caliber but you should probably measure your bore with calipers. if you are looking for a good bird load look up "sky chief load" for 69 caliber. thanks for watching
its not generally done because 3f creates higher pressure. that said if you did do it i would decrease the powder charge substantially like start with 40-50 grains
I'm reading out of the Small arms and ammunition of the US service 1776-1865 by Berkeley R Lewis and I can't find anything about a 0.662 caliber ball. I would think that that would be way too tight considering army's generally went with five calibers under four ease of loading.
I concur with your statement on saying the .662 would be too tight. The archeology report from the National Park Service details two sizes of musket balls found on site - .685 for the British muskets that had a bore of about .753 and .62 for the French muskets with a bore of .69. Please note that these are averages as all the musket balls for the French and the British muskets of the time were not all exactly the same size.
I made paper cartridges for my Pedersoli Indian trade gun this week and shot them today. After not being able to hit an Oldsmobile at 10 yrds with roundball before, I was able to hit an adhesive sticker target at 25 yrds! The "ball first then paper" thing is not only legitimate....it's f'in macaroni !
Washington Post or NYT will do nicely for your purposes. Keep up the good work. I enjoy your videos. I’ll be picking up a Charleville as soon as they get back in stock. An old grunt here.
Thank you 11bangbang for actually recreating the historic process of the paper cartridge. Really excited to see the accuracy of what this load can achieve. If you haven't notice, capandball has created a video already on this and of course, he is standing while shooting it. But I am very curious of how it performs on a bench, rested. In addition, this can also show everyone the proof of how indian guns are durable just like the Italian counterparts. Thank you and be safe.
No problem man
So I just went and watched the video you were talking about and it appears that me and ol capandball drew the same conclusion on what kind of charge, ball and cartridge to use. I will warn you it could be a month or so until I get the test video out. We are currently in the process of acquiring filming and audio recording equipment for the channel and we want it to be the best quality we can make it.
By the way thank you for the Idea for this test. I think it'll be alot of fun and very telling of the accuracy potential of these sweet old guns.
The Hungarian can shoot better offhand standing than most of us can shoot off a bench. lol
You do nice work! Best thing about paper cartridges is it affords you the opportunity to get off a lot of shots as did the military at the time. Can’t do that with rifled barrels which has given me a new appreciation for smooth bores. Me I like plinking.
Actually, there were paper cartridges for rifles. There are accounts of the American militiamen using homemade ones. The British did it with the baker rifle.
Mad thanks to you and the channel. I’m a blackpowder fan but would have never bought a Charleville without your ‘push’! Just back from the 1st range session. Located some Swiss 1.5 and loaded per your video. I could actually smell the ‘redcoats’ thru the smoke! 😊👍
lol keep them runnen all the way back to Boston!!
@@Real11BangBang 1 If by land my brother. 😎
Thank you for the details I just ordered a round ball mold from England. 1766 Char's are going to be in stock in March
Makes me want to get a Charleville
Very nice and good to explain thanks very much 11bangbang from your friend Hoover Canada
If i remembered right, the reason why manuals called for so much powder was do to how they made the powder. It had more volume to it. In the 1800s the manufacturing change. They started pressing powder into pucks and then smashed it up into grains. This made for a much denser powder. So less powder was sufficient. BTW This technique is still used today. 150-180 grains is way too much if you are using modern powder.
110 Goex works for me. 5grains for prime, 5 grains for waste (bite into the powder if you are not wanting to fondle cartridge instead of charge cartridge).
This is exactly correct. J.M. Spearman in "The British Gunner" notes that it was noted in 1828 that between 1775 and 1828 British gunpowder doubled in strength. This is why you cannot look at 18th century load data and try to replicate it today - the 18th century charges were *considerably larger* compared to 19th century charges, simply because the powder was weaker.
@@wittsullivan8130 willow is something kinda between a tree and a reed and because of this it has no annual rings giving a more consistent charcoal I am from Somerset in the UK 30mile from one of the biggest willow farms it grows 70 percent of the world's used willow it is also very fast growing like a crop hope this is of some help and not just waffle
I've found that the thin paper bags that prescriptions come in from the pharmacy work very well for cartridges. You can get 4 cartridge sheets out of one bag.
Great tip!
I just ordered my first ever flintlock, it’s a 1777 Charleville from Loyalist arms. I’m hoping that I made the right choice. Your video have taught me a lot about making paper cartridges. I have a 50 round kit coming from Jefferson Arsenal and .648 and .675 cal round balls from Track of the Wolf. The Musket should be here in December. I appreciate your videos and any advice for a newbie would be greatly appreciated!
thank you and good luck in your new adventures
The French would have loaded it just like the British. During the American War of Independence, we started using the cartridge design of the British Empire until the French had become officially involved. A ball would be inside the paper cartridge for both the 1766 and 1777 model Charleville muskets. During the War of 1812, we continued to use the French cartridge design since our 1795 springfields are exact copies of the 1766 Charleville.
I'm making my first attempt at paper cartridges for my Access Heritage Charleville this weekend.
Good luck!
For loading and cartridge making would you be able to share a link to some of these original manuals? Thanks!
A website called Marty's arms makes multi cavity roundball molds in any diameter under an inch. He's also pretty easy to deal with and ships out within 2-3 days
we will have to give that a try
This method to make cartridges is okay, but you should check out the Jefferson Arsenal's method to role cartridges, very good read.
Just keep dropping the rock
Will do big brother
I have a question if I were to use a .60 caliber round ball what would you recommend for a low power to normal power powder charge using Swiss 1 1/2 blackpowder ? The same question goes for a .69 caliber ball. I just bought my 1777 Charleville musket from military heritage and am kind of new to finding powder charges for it.
I won’t recommend anything...BUT
I just came from the range after shooting my Charleville during my very first range session.. tested Swiss 1 1/2 at 110g weighed with .648 paper cartridge. 50 round without a hiccup. I smell ‘redcoats’ and blackpowder! 😊 Start at 80 if you please.
@@johnnottahcal5725 thank you
About to 1/4"-28 tap my vents for the new Charleville Set from Heritage "TODAY!"
I will be a regular customer at Heritage!
Once you smell Black Powder, You're HOOKED!
What is the TEMPLATE measurements ... My Access Heritage 1766 musket is on the way --- and I'm trying to narrow down all the supplies I need to buy to get this up and running ... I know I have to drill the side vent hole -- got that ... I've built AR platforms and been around firearms before -- but this is my 1st musket .... just want to do this correctly ... and get my Blue& whites on "wink, wink" and hit the field ...
I can't remember off the top of my head but if you look at dulist 1954's video on it. He has the measurements all laid out
My favorite paper is "Packing Paper" from the Dollar store. It is cheap, you get 20 sheets of 20 inch X 20 inch, and I find it easier to tear with my teeth. I use a 5/8 dowel as the "former". I also use a glue stick, but I run the glue along the entire length of the diagonal side. This tends to help keep that edge together. It works for me. Give it a try and tell me how it works for you.
I'm using the same method & materials.
Only thing a I noticed about loading ball then paper is sometimes I can’t tell if I got all the powder out of the paper and I feel like I’m shorting myself if I don’t
Dad- "Oh that's where the paper cutter went to..."
lol so true
I make paper cartridges for my 1858 cap and ball revolver I use coffee filter that I socked in potassium nitrate
That's the way you do it, or you have to punch the paper with a vent pick before applying the cap.
I'm assuming you mold it doen with a two piece wooden dowel and hole mold while they are damp, them let them dry
I feel like this is a dumb question, is there any way to waterproof the paper cartridges? I read somewhere (cant find the source now) that you could dip them in wax afterwards and it helps waterproof them.
I have heard this is well. I had read about it in I believe Robert Rogers's journal of where he had his men put wax on their cartridges but it could have been another book. I would assume that this would make them a much more waterproof cartridge
I like the comment on carl marx
lol
Actually, you should be loading your lead balls with the sprew up. The rear of the slug is what steers the bullet.
The standard powder loads were from approximately 110 grains, which allowed about 10 grains taken up by the priming of the pan. 150 - 180 grains is far too large a charge.
To make tieing off the cartridge, try using a choking string to pre-tighten the paper crimp. It makes the process alot easier.
Check out duelist1954's channel regarding this process, I believe you will find it very enlightening.
thanks for watching
On another one of your short videos, you recommend .638 ball. Was that a misquote? Did you mean .648 as on this video. I watched some other channels as well and they did not mention the correct diameter and I tried .672. Actually it was kind of comical watching this 73 year old fart fighting the ramrod. This video is awesome! I am never too old to learn something new and I Thank You!
Maybe I missed it but what size ball do you use for Charleville paper cartridges?
The round ball size I used in this video was 0.648 got to be more historically accurate I shoot a 0.638
"2 ball bags" lol
I just ordered .648 round balls from TofTW.. I was going to make my ctgs with 2F, but I have some 1F also. Will it really matter.?? What do you recommend Ethan??
Either will work. However you're probably going to get your best results with the 1F
@@Real11BangBang TY, going with 150 grs of 1F...👍🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸, MERICA'
I make thousands of blanks and hundreds of ball rounds... So i have gone toward some faster step saving techniques.
1, Masking paper from the paint department is about the right width to get two templated across. I pull, fold, fold, fold, fold,..... Fold. Then i run a sharp knife over both folded edges making 26-30 papers. Then i cut the diagonal making 52 to 60 papers.
2, i use a hollow mold (a pipe) plugged to my charge 120grains for this musket is my preference. Scoop up the powder in an open box.
3, roll paper around the mold
4, slip the mold back slightly to press in the ball. Tie tip and waist
5, invert and remove mold
6, fold down the tail
I've gotten that down to 30 seconds a live round and 15seconds a blank... After the bulk cut of paper.
Saves the paper cutter and extra handling. May not be for everyone.
I think its faster to just have a horn and a packet full of musket balls but its more fun with cartridges
Please do not use a horn. A friend of mine was injured years ago due to his horn leaking and he went too close to a fire and the horn blew up.
@@josephwalukonis9934 thats not the horn fault your friend clearly didnt check for leakages which is what you should do daily
Paper back then was not Wood Based as is Today it was more Linen/Cotton Based.I am going to try to find Cotton Rag paper to see what results I get. And try to also make the Washington's Special Recipe Round "Ye Olde Buck N Ball" Cartridge.
Load bullet first or paper first?
The biggest reason for me to pre package loads like this is just to keep myself from dry balling like the idiot I am. I have done that recently with my 1842 musket and it's not a good feeling
Hey guys I got a question hopefully y'all can answer for me. I'm thinking of trying my 1795 Springfield for bird hunting. Any idea what size wads I should use?
it is 69 caliber but you should probably measure your bore with calipers. if you are looking for a good bird load look up "sky chief load" for 69 caliber. thanks for watching
Me too. I wanted to use a .125 fiber wad. I ordered 15 guage from Track or Possibles Shop but too big. Prolly 14guage but can’t swear to it yet.
My understanding silver oak for charcoal
A fucking plus on the communist manifesto idea LOL. I just got a 1766 charleville from MH and quoted your positive words about them btw.
What would happen if you used 3Fg instead of 2Fg?
its not generally done because 3f creates higher pressure. that said if you did do it i would decrease the powder charge substantially like start with 40-50 grains
,662 is the correct ball size folks
I'm reading out of the Small arms and ammunition of the US service 1776-1865 by Berkeley R Lewis and I can't find anything about a 0.662 caliber ball. I would think that that would be way too tight considering army's generally went with five calibers under four ease of loading.
@@Real11BangBang use newsprint /roll same pattern but opposite you do can load and shoot all day
I concur with your statement on saying the .662 would be too tight. The archeology report from the National Park Service details two sizes of musket balls found on site - .685 for the British muskets that had a bore of about .753 and .62 for the French muskets with a bore of .69. Please note that these are averages as all the musket balls for the French and the British muskets of the time were not all exactly the same size.
Archeology report was from Fort Necessity in PA.
my cartridges are made w/ 650 ball my above statment should read 662 incorrect
Nicely done! And an extra 'hat tip' to duelist1954! I agree, his channel is good to go, too!
Thank you
Not worried? Are you nuts?!? You better get worried & get active.
I'm not worried cause I'm already prepared
7:12