The biggest slap in the face of the employees - From IGN article "Employees in one department recalled a post-layoffs Q&A session where a department head was asked if leadership taking salary cuts to prevent layoffs had been considered, only to respond that Bungie was “not that type of company.”"
If I were an employee and hearing that I’d be looking for another job. I don’t blame any developer thinking that way. Get of the sinking ship before it’s too late
I've been buying into Bungie for 9 years- I'm under no obligation to buy the Final Shape. They had 9 years to win me over for the finale, but clearly upper management is clueless. Instead of finishing strong like they did with Halo, they figured it was a shoe-in and decided to over-invest in expanding their business. They grew too big too fast and had to be saved with a buy-out, and that might not even save them. They have only themselves to blame for treating their customer base like open wallets instead of people.
100%. I've watched them flounder not just for 9 years, but for 10 straight. They haven't had a clue how to develop this type of game, and the only reason it stayed at the "top" of the looter genre was because of hype. It's time for the franchise to shut down because at this point, it won't ever reach the potential that Bungie advertised. Not even close.
I've been playing since alpha and nowadays i think it was maybe all just a waste of my time and money. If they dont make final shape the size of the base game when it comes to content then i probably wont buy that garbage. Wq and lf were already both not worth 50€ each with how little content we got
@@ToxicMothBoi Exactly. And for what it's worth, it held that position as long as it could, for the quality they were committed to put into it. Justin Truman talked about iteration at GDC, well...if they truly innovated, the 10 year mark would mean Destiny would look VERY different than it did at the start, and truly...outside of some updates, some shinier systems, some deeper customization...it's largely the same loop it was at D1Y1. Without Destiny to dominate the space, other games hungry to fill the void, and passionate enough to keep pushing the envelope, will step in. It was inevitable.
It sucks to be in this position as a consumer. I want to support the devs for the game I love, but I can't without giving my money to their terrible management.
Bungie executives are delusional as hell. They want to keep their freedom and salaries. One has to be traded for the other. The only way they can survive is by personal sacrifice they won't do.
The best way to support those devs is to follow them on social media, send them messages, thank them for their hard work, broadcast their work to the world as much as possible. Because paying more money will ONLY support the management that has caused the game to bottom out and grow even more bankrupt of innovation.
To be fair, this all started with the devs doing a bad job. Nobody cared about higher ups/upper management during the Witch Queen, Taken King, Forsaken, Beyond Light, etc. It's really hard to believe that the upper management came to the devs saying "hey, we need to create a really bad expansion. Lightfall needs to be one of the worst things we ever did, ok? Destroy the story, screw the game, take the servers off, do whatever it takes for the game to hit the very rock bottom!". People can scream all they want about mismanagement, etc. but the devs failed at the very basic with the DLC, there is no way around it. Upper management is actually probably doing what Sony told them to do asap, wich means, start to make money now, no matter how. Layoffs are usually part of these methods to increase revenue fast. Upper management also should be doing a better job at lowering the company costs (instead of wasting on buildings, expensive crap for them, bad marketing, etc.) and also a much better job at getting their devs to do a better job. They failed there (mismanagement). They always want us to act first (pay) before they actually have something to give us in return. Now it's their turn to act first and earn our money.
The grace people give Bungie is ridiculous because for all the hate 343i received, Bungie was far worse in handling Destiny and treating their customers like cash cows.
If Sony takes over, they can do whatever they want with Destiny. They don't have to support it. As long Bungie is doing Destiny, they have to care about it because it is their only source of revenue.
We're screwed either way, unless the new overseer striaght up accepts to do whatever the dev team suggests and heard the community, nothing will change except monetization systems a wee bit.
I think the most important thing everyone could take away from this Bungie financial situation is, short term gains lead to long term struggles. The entire corporate world the last 10 years has only cared about short term profitability. I'm not sure why this is, but anyone with even a high school semester in either macro or micro economics understands how a supply/ demand graph works and that yopu always want to shoot for long term, steady growth. Hopefully the entire industry is taking a good hard look at Bungie and learning what not to do. Unfortunately, I don't think we will see any shifts in the industry over night. Just earlier this year Bungie was the benchmark for "how to run live service games" giving, essentially, TED talks to other developers on how to do it at GDC.
Short term gains are lines of cocaine they can’t stop snorting. Preferably on a stripper’s tits, in Bobby Cockdick’s case. He wants to party hard and can’t see further than the end of his nose as he’s doing those lines. As is every other company stuck in the short term circle jerk. Steve Jobs put it perfectly when he talked about the rise and fall of companies, and the degradation of a product, always because financial takes over decision making positions, rather than product development. You see a similar issue in Hollywood with constant remakes and sequels to movies they know work, killing the creativity of that space for the sake of guaranteed profit, which stems from the same flawed and broken ideology.
Because we live in a world where most leadership positions are filled by nepotists or connections rather than people who are actually good at their job. The "rich white stupid boy whos daddy owns the company" stereotype is a lot more painfully accurate than I would like. Statistically, 85% of jobs are filled through connections, not by actually knowing your shit.
@@Dynasty1818 Sony was the only solution. Bungie wouldn't exist in the near future without Sony money. Sony is great for Bungie IMO. Sony can remind them they are a business not a cuddlefest. They exist to make money making games. I also feel with this wording this was Sony's over all plan. Bungie is known industry wide to be poorly managed and burn through cash. Sony saw a way to acquire Bungie knowing they would fail themselves and Sony could remove Bungie's portion and take over.
It might be a blessing in disguise, Hermen Hulst seems like a competent dude and I'm not sure what logic there is in relying on the current heads at Bungie to get them out of the mess that they themselves caused. I'm at the point now where i truly don't see a future for Destiny as things stand, will be interesting to see what unfolds
Sony has ZERO mp IPs cause they can’t make nor manage them.. They also don’t like investing into their games for more than a year or so.. Remember all those “Halo killers” they made??? Exactly.. If Sony leads them they’ll be worst than Bungie management ever was..
So competent he alongside Jim Ryan are seeing their live service stategy crumble not to mention Killzone went to shit and Horizon couldn't be more boring.... but honestly he can't be any worse than the current leadership at bungie lol
As an "outsider" who always had interest in the Destiny IP but thinks the entry barrier is terribly high, I would love to see Bungie returning to "finite" games. Bungie being Sony's biggest studio, I think they would have enough people to have teams that would continue to support their service games as well a team to produce "regular" cinematic Sony games with a beginning, middle and end every 4 to 5 years.
The reason people stuck around for D2 so long (myself included) is because you can see how much potential is available for this game. There's tons of room for story, tons of room for gameplay, and so much more. However, it either gets watered down, stretched out, or shelved because they didn't want us to have higher expectations or "overdeliver."
The contract with Activision was actually to make 4 of those 'finite' games. Destiny 1 is still a game of such nature (and it's also why it's so good, and to me truly the last Bungie game). The problem is, people misunderstood a quote and kept on insisting bungie promised D1 would be a 10 year game (when it was talking about a franchise, not game), so for D2 they caved in, unprepared for actually supporting a title for 10 years (which is why something breaks every other week in D2) and we end up with the pile of shit we have today. Destiny was always at it's best when it embraced it's Halo and Borderlands roots, not this 'MMO' (lite) non-sense that leads to quantity over quality content.
I agree with your analysis Paul.. I have not purchased the final shape, have not purchased anything from eververse in 10 months and my playing time has decreased from 6-8 hours a day to 3 hours every 2- 3 weeks. Destiny 2 has so much potential, but the top executives has run this company into the ground and created a toxic work environment. Interesting note I used to get an email from a 3rd party company around November time frame asking me different questions to evaluate my destiny 2 gaming experience. I gave them a bad review last year and did not receive that email this year. Hmmm🤔🤔🤔
Same experience except I haven’t played the past few months and just been playing other stuff. Destiny demanded a lot of time on top of everything you’ve said, and now playing other games, I’ve realized it wasn’t worth it as much to me.
@@JizzyNinja I know a lot of people who quit during season of defiance and they just never got back into it- they say that the game was an addiction and finally free of it so I totally understand the lack of enjoyment from an objectively mediocre game. I've been playing some Halo and other games tbh and I've had more fun with games from 15 years ago versus Destiny with its insane mtx and overly aggressive monetization.
It would be interesting to learn according to the contract with Sony, what happens to Bungie management if Sony takes over the board. If there's a clause in there that guarantees buyouts/big severance packages for Bungie management, I would find it hard to believe this wasn't deliberate sabotage.
I hear you. It's a sad situation that alot of people from what I see say Sony might be better than bungie...but I have never seen a successful live service game from Sony so...I am conflicted
I’m right with you. I’ve been playing since launch and absolutely love the game but man are they making it hard. I will continue to support them till they die. Support just gonna be less than previous times.
Everything dies at some point. It's sad but inevitable. But we mourn until we're satisfied and continue to live. It's the natural cycle of things in this universe.
Sony can make some great games, and even as a hardcore destiny fan I can confidently say. Bungie is running destiny into the ground, if any company can save the game its probably sony.
It seems obvious to me now more than ever as time goes on and more information comes out, that Bungies 45% under performance is solely down to them over selling themselves and deliberately misleading Sony over the their actual financial situation and not a very large or mistaken miscalculation in their projected forecast. Worse still they knew this and they knew the affect it would have regarding the people who were laid off. Even worse we now know their own people on the dev side of Destiny have been telling them all along that they were heading for disaster. Add to that we had Justin Truman's GDC 2022 presentation, which is aging like milk in the desert, and how they handled Destiny as a product and over delivery and quality isn't the best way to run a live service, they are now telling us that Final Shape is going to be comparable to Forsaken which is a full 180 over how they've managed the game since leaving Activision, good luck getting that sorted with a workforce that has obviously got really low moral, has been ignored, and had their numbers cut because the people that were supposed to make sure they had job security and a stable future failed utterly at that task, the same people who are still there even after their failure and telling them they now have to do what they've been told not to do for at least the last 5 years since Forsaken and the split from Activision. I can't even begin to imagine what fun it must be like to work under such a bunch of negligent stupid c**ts. What's worse is that if they do some how manage to turn it all around they will be patting themselves on the back for avoiding a disaster that was all their own making and quite probably avoidable. If it were me and I was the person at Sony with the final say, I'd smoke the lot of them and show them the door with nothing but a months severance and I'd be pissed about giving them that much. Why is failing upwards not only a thing but accepted?
I love Destiny, it's been my personal WoW. I love the lore, the characters, the world. I just want it to succeed and for more people to have the chance to enjoy it as I have.
It’s hard to tell if this would be good or bad, it honestly could go either way. The people that instantly think this would be great seem to forget how everyone thought Bungie separating from Activision would be amazing, improve the game, and lead to less greed/microtranactions… and we all know how that’s turned out.
True but I think the reasoning here is Bungie management said Activision was the problem and they've consistently been the push for monetizing. Finally we're here with a massive revenue miss (which is inherently management). Agreed it's knee jerk but at this point the game is good the business model is bad and Sony could be a breath of fresh air.
Difference is bungie managment was always smelling shit and blaming others for shitting their pants. Only know we realised we only smell shit when pete parsons opens his mouth. Suddenly enough people arent so inclined to hang out with shit for breath over here, and were kinda rooting for whoever can get the stink out😅 because no one enjoyed the smell of shit. But usually it went away quick enough to forget about it.
This. It was gonna be one way or the other. PlayStation destroys Bungie or Bungie destroys PlayStation. Both companies have terrible management and are genuinely out of touch with consumer trends. Live Service gaming??? NFTs??? Both companies will crumble to Xbox Gamepass and they only have themselves to blame for it.
@@xCobraCommanderxAgreed. PS has been my main platform forever and they’ve been making some poor decisions. I thought the Bungie acquisition was a bad idea from the beginning
@xCobraCommanderx play station has the best studios around. They have the best exclusives and titles by a MILE. Sony would force Bungie to actually produce a quality product. This is exactly what needs to happen. Bungie is a disaster.
On one hand, Bungie management needs to go at this point, starting with Mr. Overdelivery, idk his name but him and his philosophy, and those like him are killing this game. Same philosophy that sees low revenue and throws a $15 "Starter pack" up thinking it will help fix the problem. Throw that out, right out the window. On the other hand, who the hell knows what SONY would do with this game.
I was laid off out of VFX back in April, first thing that happened was a hiring freeze in the November before that, then a Salary freeze going into 2023 then layoffs starting in April.
It truly feels like a no-win situation for Bungie As a player, I took a bit of a break earlier this fall as a ton of new games dropped, then the layoffs hit and really soured me on jumping back in. Though by all accounts the season and dungeon are solid, as you have said: quality doesn't matter right now. I just don't care, and that is a dangerous place for Bungie to be in with players
I have tremendous respect for Bungie. They didn't just launch the Xbox and, frankly, give it a fighting chance... they showed everyone how to do FPS on the console. At that time people were still saying it just isn't going to work on console. They deserve all the respect in the world for saying they were ready to move on from Halo, while at the same time delivering on their promise and producing their most complex and possible greatest stories at the end of their Halo run. Then they go and invent a new game type of FPS meets ongoing game (now we call it live service) and making that into an empire. To be fair, while I will never get enough of their Halo work, I didn't enjoy Destiny at all... but that doesn't make it less worthy of respect or less of an accomplishment. It will be awful to see this company go, but I question... I don't know the answer to this... is it still Bungie anymore or have all the main players from Myth and Halo and Destiny and so on moved on?
The vast majority of staff who worked on Halo and prior games are long gone. The name of the company continues on, but the actual people who made Halo magic are scattered to the winds.
Thanks for the replies. I still replay Halo campaigns to this day. I got to the introduction of the Flood late at night on the Xbox's launch day. I am truly grateful for that experience and the surprise. I know how passionate people are about Destiny so my conclusion is it is truly great they managed to strike big again and transform gaming. I know Paul's analysis is a grim outlook but I understand the conclusion. I was hoping they might transform the industry again with Marathon. We'll see.
honestly i know i am not a business person but its absolutely CRAZY to me that their number one top priority hasnt been focusing on getting new players into the game. revenue is down because they have to market to the SAME players each time. someone spends $100 on eververse you have to expect the SAME people to spend that money next season too. get more people into the game. make shadowkeep AND beyond light free at this point. so many complaints is that the seasonal model is tiresome. its tiresome because its the same people playing the game since shadowkeep of course theyre gonna get tired out. new players hopping into season of the witch and wish would absolutely LOVE it and wouldn’t have complaints. i wouldnt be surprised if into the light is 80% designed for new players in mind because they sure as hell arent meeting revenue goals with the same current players
Honestly, this could be the best thing for destiny. Current leadership: 0% chance of success after TFS Sony leadership: unknown chance of success. I'll roll the dice
I'm conflicted. A part of me wants to see Bungie collapse because I played since D1 and I feel this player base has the biggest case of Stockholm Syndrome. They are constantly abused with mediocre content and expected to pay out the ass for it and the player base keeps doing that. They gave up on PvP and Gambit and made seasonal content more or less just rinse and repeat variations of the same thing over and over. But I know this isn't the ground teams fault. They tried to advocate for us and tell the managers what needed to happen to make the player base happy and they were ignored. So for them to potentially be out of the job is heartbreaking and I don't want them to be punished for bad management. But if Bungie collapsing gives enough warning to other developers not to follow this model then maybe this needs to happen.
Sony taking over sounds like a great idea from here. They fired some great talent and they might do it again. Great employees are what make a great company. A great company is dissolving and upper management are protecting themselves.
Have you seen Sony's decisions lately? The past few years they've made some really bad ones around money, rising prices everywhere and no change in quality really. I don't really see them improving things if they take over. If anything things will get more expensive.
Destiny is dead. I was thinking more about talented people continuing to have jobs and no just randomly let go while upper management sits in hot tubs and drinks wine. @@craigshelhammer5683
I really wonder what a Sony-managed Bungie would look like in a few years. I don't know of any other game dev companies that Sony directly manages like that to compare against. It's not hard to say "It can't get much worse" as I'd guess the worst thing they could do is just end support for Destiny as a whole. As for the existing staff, I feel terrible for them as 100% expect that the moment Final Shape launches, there will likely be more layoffs no matter how good it does. Assuming it does good and makes a lot of $$$, management would likely want to lay off more staff to make that new money go even further to make up for their lack of revenue last year. On the other hand if it fails, RIP their jobs again as the studio is likely done for in its current form (for better or worse). In short, they should update their resumes and start looking just in case.
It’s so frustrating because the solution and problem is so painfully obvious. All of these problems are because we’ve had absolutely terrible new player on boarding. I don’t know how they neglected it for so long it’s insane. Veteran players burn out and play other games. You NEED constant new players to come in. Shaw Han is not enough to get new players on board. And now we’re at Endgame. Why would any player join now? It’s reaching the over. They already missed it and there’s no way to replay past story This is the consequence of poor player onboarding. No new players no new spenders. All you have is declining player numbers and declining revenue. They have the data. They should’ve seen this coming a mile away. Upper management must seriously be brain dead
"Nobody plays the old campaigns" The old campaigns after completion: 1 campaign mission on weekly rotation(flashpoint) Random campaign mission in the vanguard playlist. Hmm. I wonder why people weren't engaging with content that could only be completed once.
Just the fact purchasing the newest expansion (for a $100 if you go with basically the complete thing) doesn't give you access to every previous expansion (like other MMO games, the thing destiny claims it is when it's convenient to do) is bad enough. But player on boarding it's just one of the many problems plaguing destiny...having a better experience for newbies is not going to make the story suddenly good, the seasonal content any less of a copy paste, features that should have been here since a decade ago (like LFG) arrive any faster or the braindead AI any smarter... i'd argue the root of the issue was the seasonal model, quality is just unsustainable with this model.
A bad game can survive as long as theirs new players to scam, but if there is no new players and the current ones get older then they start to learn the bullsh*t tactics.
Agree 100%. Old players drift away due to burnout/ getting older and having more RL responsibilities etc while barely any new players join - it's a slow death spiral.
Honestly if they bundled all three Witcher armors together for 20 bucks I feel like they would make more then they would currently since more people would buy the bundle that would never buy a single set.
Yeah definitely. I decided not to buy it as I'm not spending that much for a single armour set, especially since the hunter one is a bit meh and that's the class I main.
They need to make the game more consumer-friendly. Well, they needed to do that years ago. Make transmog free, give discounts on silver, make earnable currency more powerful, free gifts on occasion, get rid of dungeon keys, make the game economy way easier to break into for new players, and allow F2P players access to seasonal content. If they make it so that the game isn't an obviously radioactive wallet-killer, people would be more open to engaging with it and eventually spending. Also, they really needed to fix the new-player experience. Too late for any of that now. If any other company made Destiny 2, it would be compared to some of the most infamous gamigo-style cash grabs.
dungeon keys kinda suck but the quality of the dungeons under this system has been well above those that came before. it's way easier for me to justify spending $30 on both dungeon keys, than spending $40 on a campaign as bad as lightfall.
It is unbelievable that a single decision lead to all of this trouble. Someone and some point decided to make lightfall the gap stop that it was when they did not have enough content to put into it and thought people will still buy it and be happy. Lightfall was really good mechanics wise IMO, streamlined a lot of systems, strand was and is still a really good subclass that did not outshine all other subclasses like stasis did but the story, after the fantastic story that witch queen and its seasons had (I did not like plunder but it was ok) we got Lightfall.
So idk if they have a 3rd darkness subclass in the works but if they do i would make the new light supers part of the free into the light event then advertise the new darkness subclass as part of the final shape, and make most if not all previous dlc's free for those who login durring the into the light event. That might bring up new player count and please free to play people aswell as add good publicity. But i doubt any of that would happen
Man at this point they would have to create new fragments and aspect for all classes. Increase the amount of fragments and aspects we can have at once The new subclass would have to be absolutely amazing There would also need to be new variants for all enemy classes and several different variants And thats just a start.
it seems like management change would be necessary, no doubt. but I'm afraid it'll be either like, trying to save a sinking ship by scooping out the water and not filling the holes, or something worse as far as a management team. kinda like Arbiter said in Halo 3, "we trade one villain for another." Or, they just liquidate Bungie as a whole to try and make up for revenue loss.
As a long time Bungie fan; as in back the to Mac-only days, I always wonder the same thing: where’s Jason Jones, the only remaining founder and team member, in all this? I met Jason personally several times, as I used to be a game-focused journalist myself in the distant past, and he was extremely intelligent, open to new ideas, friendly, and exploding with new ideas. If he’s become wrapped in so many layers of management that he can no longer make a difference, that’s a tragic shame.
How are we (the d2 community) supposed to pre-order a product (the final shape) if we don't know anything about it? The reveal trailer was good-looking but a bunch of nonsense. Just some throwback scenes and nothing about the DLC. What's in it? There was nothing to get me excited about it or pique my interest in it.
FF14 isnt really a fair comparison cause it's just very different. But I feel like if im down to throw down a monthly sub 8 months out of the year for FF14 but balk at the seasons/battlepasses of Destiny 2 says a lot of how differently i enjoy one over the other in a casual sense. With FF14 i feel like players are chill and forgiving, the story and content is accessible in its entirety, and I don't feel like im missing much if i take a few months break D2 feels like I HAVE to make the most out of a season, like its a second job. Have to grind currencies. Have to grind missions and weapon levels. Have to do this or else I lose out on the rewards. Doing Vanguard Strikes SUCKS cause if I stop sprinting to speed to the end my other team mates are going to kill everything and leave me in the dust. And even after all that, I have this deep bubbling anxiety that all these weapons and mods are just going to be wiped out or sunset to be repackaged for a 10-20 dollar dungeon/season just like the Seraph or Ikelos Weapons. Which I dont even have a point to use other than looks cause the warmind cell armor mods were removed. Why grind if the stuff i grind for might be worthless someday?
If any upper management wont take a pay cut and instead laid off a bunch of employees, they are automatically assigned as trash in my eye and should be replaced asap.
exactly. refusing to take a pay cut to keep the company together is the worst message from a leader. "screw everyone else, i want my money" is the entire message I'm getting. You can fall down in the alley with your briefcase of money like the businessman in AKIRA, leadership.
Welp Paul knows his data, patterns, trends, the gaming industry, Destiny and BUNGIE along with countless sources culminating in a pretty damn accurate analog for having his finger on the pulse of this situation...... this does not bode well for my favorite game. Thanks for the hard work Paul.
I believe this would be catastrophic to those who play and have always played Destiny on Xbox. Really wish someone would give a damn about us, but the PC and PlayStation crowd seem to think this would be a great thing.
I'd like to see the player count on console also I think the multiple changes in direction and ownership and partners the game is doomed to end on a bad note
Best thing Bungie can do at this point is put their design team to work and make them pump out a crap ton of the best armor ornaments we’ve ever seen and push out new broken weapons we can earn in the new season activity and dungeon to interest new consumers to buy the season. I say 20 new armor sets, half for purchase and the other half earn-able in game.
I think the only way they get a huge chunk of preprders is if they have been cooking the final shape even before the delay and show us a crazy trailer or gameplay footage that really shocks us. we all know all the trailers and shit look cool and make it look better than it is but if they dropped a crazy trailer maybe sharing some of those close to the chest secrets or something might help, they might need to show some coming the next couple months
I don't think I personally see a problem with Sony taking over management and leaving the devs to do their thing while being managed better (Assuming that's the route they're discussing). I think that can only be an improvement, honestly. Bungie has proved time and again that the worst part of their company is their upper management.
Agreed, upper management in Bungie is running destiny into the ground. Sony has proven that they can make amazing games. They could save the game and make it better than Bungie was making it. But they could also have it crash
Really my only concern with Sony is the whole PS exclusive bullshit. Not gonna buy a new console and rebuy expansions if destiny has exclusives again and I’ll probably quit if they put exclusives on PS
This is sad honestly, I was bummed with the initial story telling in the LF campaign (the veil going unexplained, nimbus) but since have been really enjoying everything. And after learning what the veil is I actually think the story as a whole is really good, I think it’s just a pacing problem. I think it’s actually been a really good year of content from an objective stand point, but it fumbled in its most important moments. It’s really sad to see it end up like this.
@@mildlydazed9608 yeah man, and I honestly think it’s a cool explanation, in combo with what strand is!! “Veil containment” and the seasonal storylines for the first two seasons wrap up the LF story, makes sense why we were on neomuna and adds gravity to us “losing” in LF. All stuff I wish we could’ve learned in the campaign. It was paced pretty rough but all together is actually really good
To me it's crazy that Bungie is like "we lost 45% of some random amount of money we thought we would get in the future" and I'm like "if you never saw that money in your hands, that money was never yours hence you never lost it". I don't know where Bungie got their revenue projections but it was clear they were completely off from reality. The language used is very telling about how this whole thing works, cuz to me saying "we earned less revenue than we expected based on our projections" and "we lost revenue" are two completely different ideas addressing two different problems but it seems that for Bungie, those two sentences are one and the same. To me this just looks like someone on Bungie hyping a bit too much the projections so then they can say "we didn't earned as much money as we could" so then they have the green light to implement even heavier monetization schemes on the game so the game looks more "profitable" on the books as if Destiny 2 wasn't already a profitable game. It takes me back when Activision looked at Forsaken, probably one of the most successful Destiny 2 expansion launches ever and they still deemed it a "failure". Feels that at this point, for the people managing the coins, if Destiny 2 isn't the most popular, most successful, most profitable game in the entire industry, then it's a complete failure and should be monetized even more, probably.
It's corpo capitalist wall street nonsense. In their world if you're projecting making 1 million in profits but only make 999,999k in PROFIT you're seen as a failure. Conversely if you make well over your projections you can also be seen as a failure. They don't operate by the rules of the real world.
Man in all my years I would have never expected Destiny to go through its own Forespoken (the game) moment. Do so poorly the publishing house takes you over. But the again, as Forespoken's protagonists said "I destroyed a videogame studio with my f-ing mind", and to quote another character from the same strand of videogame characters "the uglier they are the harder they fall".
Anecdotal but every single person i know thats played Destiny is firmly not buying TFS for at least two months to see what its like after the honeymoon period. We all know how much these companies put on day one numbers and i am not going to be shocked if Lightfall was the final straw for so many they are not going to hit their targets. Just imagine ending a ten year thing and completely imploding at the finish line.
They should unionize, then get a supermajority of their fellow Bungie workers on board to strike (preventing firing, because you can’t fire the majority of workers and survive) until upper management signs a magna carta detailing transition of Bungie into a worker co-op.
I'm shocked that anyone is surprised by this -- especially Paul, since he works for Forbes after all -- but in business acquisitions, the parent company is only willing to buy another company and leave them independent subsidiary if it's in their financial best interest. That typically means the company can give profit to the parent company, which of course requires them to meet their own revenue and profit targets -- and since it's early in the acquisition, the revenue and profit targets were set by the subsidiary themselves. If the subsidiary misses revenue, the order of remedies typically is something like: 1. The subsidiary makes cuts to meet their goals. ("You missed your numbers, but we'll give you one chance to make it right") 2. The parent company replaces the board of the subsidiary. ("YOU clearly can't run it to make the goals you set, so let's put someone in place that can") 3. The parent company wholly absorbs the subsidiary. ("Since our bigger company works, maybe this can work as a part of our company") 4. The parent company sells the subsidiary for parts ("This was a bad idea so let's fire whoever suggested this and cut our losses") Step 1 is what happened in October -- the timing is in-line with Sony's Q2 internal reporting (their FY ends on 31 March) -- and since Sony is a publicly traded company, it's going to happen before Q2 results hit Wall Street. The other things that Paul mentions are just standard belt tightening. Step 1 also likely came with adjusted revenue targets for the rest of FY24 (includes TFS delay and lower player count), FY25 (includes TFS) and FY26 (includes Marathon). Bungie should be safe until next October, where TFS sales and trends will give Sony an idea of whether Bungie can make its FY24 goals. All bets are off if there's another miss.
If Sony takes over that might just be the nail in the coffin for Destiny given Sony has made it fairly clear they are backing away from live service games. This new is terrifying.
Unfortunately true. if those holding the strings actually listened to real feedback we could have easily avoided this situation. However, based on a lot of former employee testimonies, there was an outcry to get so much approved but no one upstairs were listening. Well, here we are. @@Dhunt17
I think the entire point of them buying Destiny was for them to eventually start spearheading their live service games since Sony has not being doing well with it. Like Paul said their single player games are amazing but their live service stuff has been struggling. It was reported a while ago that Sony was taking a step back from live service game and recently they shelved over half their future live service projects. Sure, it could be them trying to take it slow but this screaming abandonment to me. I guess we will have to see. @@Luke973T
Honestly, Sony kicking the board and taking over would probably be a positive change. I love Destiny (and parts of Bungie), but Bungie as an entity (through poor leadership) has been kicking players in the gut for too long.
Buying microtransactions right now has the opposite effect. You're telling them they don't need employees, they only need MS. This is the time to NOT BUY.
Let’s be honest, Bungie would have been better off being acquired by Xbox. Not only would they have been left alone, but Sony is no MS in terms of resources. Sony doesn’t even make the type of games Bungie makes. They wouldn’t be having any of these issues. The only difference is MS would own their IP.
Halo infinite is just now up to launch standards 2 years later and if it weren't for the game getting ridiculed so bad then it would have launched a year prior in an even worse state. Halo is the mario of xbox and they allowed this.
Everything points to the Final Shape being the final curtain for Destiny. I'm actually ok with that as being a solo player, my feelinhg is that Destiny has essentially abandoned the solo player by making even certain story missions that are EXTREMELY difficult to do on your own. IYes, there is LFG and a in-game LFG finder coming, but I despise LFG as I rarely get matched up with randos that I can stand as I am an older player (going back to PONG days) and just cannot relate to most of them and cringe listening to them. )I suppose I could mute/lower chat vclume more) Again, this is MY experience. Why some of those story missions re NOT matchmade is beyond me. In any case, fine with me if Destiny fades away as am catching up with all the great single-player games I missed over the last year like Elden Ring, Baldurs Gate, Spider-Man One and Two, God of War Ragnarok, Harry Potter, etc. I will miss the gunplay though... I'll probably log on enough to complete the story using LFG when needed (which I hate) and then that will be it.
I swear to god I feel like I’m going crazy. All they need to do for the new player experience is to charge 1x cost for the game and the latest DLC with all previous DLCs being included free. This would get so so many more players in and easily be worth more than a few people buying all the expansions
Seems to me that Bungie hoped that being super liberal and continuously playing woke cards would equal out to profitability. I remember them trying to shame people for expressing how having unrealistic employment standards and trying to placate loud, but very fringe groups would be both very expensive, and turn off a large portion of their audience. People may disagree, but the list of things they've just cut, plus the mass layoffs spell it out. Also makes sense as to why their community teams were gutted hardest. Many other companies have suffered the same fate in the last few years, and they always seem to start by trying to remove themselves from the divisiveness of social issues. When you alienate a significant portion of your audience in hopes that the (usually significantly smaller) remaining portion will cover those losses, you're setting yourself up for failure.
Bungie went all in on the seasonal model and forgot that the game needed to be fun. Who would have thought that creating an "assembly line" that churns out mostly boring content, would back-fire?!?? Anti-player decisions had consequences and they are paying the price.
I wonder how the 40% revenue miss measures up to the revenue Bungie brought in during the year of Witch Queen's release? Is all this happening because Bungie and Sony made an agreement that the money machine would continue to print money at an increasing rate? At some point the players of games will have no more money to give than they already do and if you ask them to pay more just to keep playing then they will stop playing.
this is what can happens when a company decides to go for quantity over quality. and taking advantage of a loyal community, having them front the bill for those projects that arent even necessarily being made for them while at the same time not giving anything of quality to them in return. (quantity referring to multiple aaa titles.) I mean how hard would it have been to make dungeons apart of the battle pass as a gesture of good faith after the dumpster fire management has created. nope instead what we got was a 15 dollar "starter" pack. but you know what guys and girls as much as I feel for the honest devs that just want to make good games. companies need to be allowed to fail when the continually produce a bad product or have bad business practices, which bungie is guilty of both right now. companies failing for these reasons is a needed part of a free market and consumer protection. again while I dont want that to happen there is a point where it needs to.
I feel like they should totally rethink the structure of Destiny as a whole for its upcoming chapters. Destiny is following a gameplay loop and model thats 10 years old almost and hasnt changed dramatically that whole time. Weve been fighting the fallen, hive, cabal, and vex and loading in from orbit for 10 years and theres not that many ways you can make that feel fresh anymore.
For fun: there's been two threads so far on Steam about this stuff, one started by me linking this video and another from someone else catching people up. Both have been locked, mine with a grand total of 3 comments and the other with none.
Note: this is a self-'copy/pasta' from another post I made: ....and suddenly it all makes sense. The recent monetization and seasonal price increases were due to the board (and perhaps other high-ranking executives) trying to ensure they continued to exist. Here's what I think the game needs to succeed: 1) Remove the artificial difficulty introduced in Lightfall (that is, old 8 is the new 10) in most casual activities. This includes overly negative modifiers like Togetherness and Attrition for amazing seasonal content like The Coil 2) Reverse mod nerfs designed to increase encounter times and grant false engagement metrics. I know they are adjusting some multipliers for mods like Heavy Handed, but outright revert it to the previous version 3) REDUCE all EV silver purchases by 50%. I imagine it's easier to get two folks to buy a $10 Witcher III ornament set rather than gambling on one person to buy it for $20 4) Stop trying to make 'wacky IB modes' a thing! Just give us Control, Clash and perhaps channel D1 to occasionally give us Mayhem 5) Reduce the ridiculous engram cost increases for focusing 6) Make the Eververse engrams on a knockout system again that excludes 'the current season-minus three' (Basically, that still leaves one year and all seasonal event merch for EV). If the knockout system is completed, the rewards are A Small Gift of Bright Dust and the rare chance for a Large Gift of Bright Dust. 7) Speaking of events, fold the additional event card as a perk for the new season
If Bungie somehow manages to escape these financial troubles and launches Marathon, I think an interesting idea to sunset Destiny 2 but continue the Destiny universe would be to launch a “Destiny: Fall of The Golden Age” game, in the same vein as Reach. It’d obviously mashed up with things we like about Destiny and maybe some new game modes. Think Horde modes, or extraction where we are tasked with hiding or saving Golden Age tech. Going in the ancient Destiny past would be a breath of fresh air for the narrative team that wouldn’t be tied down to a lot of the current characters and lore surrounding them, and free them to create new characters and story arcs.
You nailed it right on the head - what can they do at this point to fix the fallout in players? Offer the whole game free to pay for a limited time? That would certainly help with new players but then you piss off people who paid for the content and it’s not a guarantee that veteran players come back to the game. Maybe for Eververse, they can offer more enticing affordable packaged deals. Or maybe a subscription to where you get a certain amount of items per month. (Of course it would just be within a certain pool to choose from, and they can add more items to the pool every so often.) It sucks that Bungie is in this state, but it’s self inflicted, and it might be too late, too time consuming and expensive to fix.
If they would quit pricing the eververse like this is a truly free to play game, that would go a long way. They would have gotten the $60 off me if the last 3 cosmetic crossovers were $20 for all 3 sets. Instead of them wanting me to spend $180, I spent $0. I would have spent $60. That on top of seemingly tone deaf balance changes is a major factor in my desire to continue investing post final shape.
At the very end of the seasonal pass of season one of Destiny One, playable content that was purchased by consumers in season one was patched and updated by Bungie. The purchased content was playable as long as you had a minimum number item power reached. Bungie RAISED the item power requirement for the already pre purchased content, and the only way to obtain a higher item power for your already bought content was to buy the very next seasonal pass and content. This essentially took what every person bought and made it unplayable unless you gave bungie MORE money for content you had ALREADY bought. Bungie got nothing from my wallet when they raised item power requirements in my bought content from them, and then posted the item power necessary to play my already bought content while it’s unplayable so they could hold that contents replay ability hostage or every player would be forced to have content they could no longer play. The writing was on the wall long ago at bungie. The people who are/were working there have seen for years the greediness and shit business practices of that company. If you’ve ever watched an actual sunset, you’ve seen the sun lower itself behind the horizon. So imagine if you will, watching the sun slowly set on that horizon behind a huge abyss of all the fks I do not give about that company surviving its very deserved end. Karmas a bitch.
Optimistic take: if Sony replaced the board + executive leadership, and let all the passionate SMEs cook… Giving the devs agency to set deadlines and make strategic calls… it might be an actual path forward.
So much of this comes down to unrealistic revenue goals. Its not all of the problem, not even close. But it is a huge issue. I worked a retail/warehouse job (think Lowes, Home Depot, etc) and during covid, we had record sales. Like, ridiculously good sales. Our twice-yearly bonuses were fantastic, and the employees were pretty happy. morale was pretty high, especially considering the circumstances. Upper management then decided that because our sales were so good, that our goal was going to be massively increased, because clearly that revenue growth was sustainable, right? No. No, it wasn't. Not even close. Turns out, when people don't feel locked in their homes anymore, they stop putting all their money into fixing, improving, and adding onto their homes. So now, every employee is getting the contractually obligated minimum bonus check. For base employees, that's like $100. Which may sound fine, but IIRC, it still gets taxed, so its actually $80ish. Versus the old checks which had been around $200-300 prior to covid, and $400-600 during covid, which many employees used on important purchases, fixing up their own living spaces, making vehicle repairs, or buying gifts for loved ones. Morale is low now, many have left to find better jobs, and those that haven't don't really need the job, but still put in less effort than previously. It's not a good idea to reward excellent performance with an effectual punishment.
The Final Shape will sell. At least to those of us who care to finish the story. I'm sure some people pre ordered the first three episodes, so they will be played. After that, I don't know. What is my motivation to play with the Light/Dark saga resolved? I've done enough side and character stories. I don't need to fight Vex another hundred times. I'm just playing Destiny for Crucible and Gambit. Two places they sadly feel they can just ignore.
Ya know, I'd rather go with the Devil i know (Sony) and the Devils we Dont (Bungie Management), as we know how Sony is, and what they've done, as for the Bungie Management, they've only made Bad Decisions for Us Players, and for the Destiny 2 Dev Team over the last 2 years and we've really 0nly ahd Pete Parsons as a person to point fingers at. Not saying that Destiny Dev Team has always done thing we've liked, but they have atleast owned up to what we disliked, and in some cases fixxed shit quickly or communicated such. Bungie and Destiny is is in Rough Waters, and i dont have faith in Bungie Management recovering from this unfortunately.
I am looking forward to the finale. It was a wild 10 year ride but yeah, I am definitely looking forward to laying down the ol' guardian. Too bad we aren't in the timeline where Bungie made Destiny 3 instead of becoming a live service IP.
I wonder how long will the game be available after the last expansion. I might try getting back into it. I stopped playing just after the Mara season mainly because my laptop is struggling with the game.
I’d say Bungie being broken up is the least likely scenario in a takeover. The “experienced live service developer will aid other studios making live service games” was the most aspirational part of the acquisition. The reason why Bungie sold for the price it did was that the brand has value and that value comes primarily from Bungie’s reputation for producing great fps games. They aren’t going to destroy that value by dismantling it. If the aspirational stuff with live service fails, they will fallback on Bungie’s concrete value of making great games. And yeah if the numbers say Destiny 2 is done as a moneymaker and the Destiny franchise needs to be shelved or ended, that might happen. But there’s no way they will give up “from the studio that created Halo and Destiny”. Even if Marathon ends up being a miss the Bungie brand will still have value.
The biggest slap in the face of the employees -
From IGN article "Employees in one department recalled a post-layoffs Q&A session where a department head was asked if leadership taking salary cuts to prevent layoffs had been considered, only to respond that Bungie was “not that type of company.”"
Sheeeeeeit. They're about to not be a company at all lol.
Yeah, that's really shameful.
weve noticed haha
@@Kuhmodo WELP...GOODBYE
If I were an employee and hearing that I’d be looking for another job. I don’t blame any developer thinking that way. Get of the sinking ship before it’s too late
I've been buying into Bungie for 9 years- I'm under no obligation to buy the Final Shape. They had 9 years to win me over for the finale, but clearly upper management is clueless. Instead of finishing strong like they did with Halo, they figured it was a shoe-in and decided to over-invest in expanding their business. They grew too big too fast and had to be saved with a buy-out, and that might not even save them. They have only themselves to blame for treating their customer base like open wallets instead of people.
Blud out here waffling 😭
100%. I've watched them flounder not just for 9 years, but for 10 straight. They haven't had a clue how to develop this type of game, and the only reason it stayed at the "top" of the looter genre was because of hype.
It's time for the franchise to shut down because at this point, it won't ever reach the potential that Bungie advertised. Not even close.
I've been playing since alpha and nowadays i think it was maybe all just a waste of my time and money. If they dont make final shape the size of the base game when it comes to content then i probably wont buy that garbage. Wq and lf were already both not worth 50€ each with how little content we got
@@RedShadowOfSaturnyea they couldve easily made it the nr.1 mmo fps of all time but rn its kinda just existing
@@ToxicMothBoi Exactly. And for what it's worth, it held that position as long as it could, for the quality they were committed to put into it. Justin Truman talked about iteration at GDC, well...if they truly innovated, the 10 year mark would mean Destiny would look VERY different than it did at the start, and truly...outside of some updates, some shinier systems, some deeper customization...it's largely the same loop it was at D1Y1.
Without Destiny to dominate the space, other games hungry to fill the void, and passionate enough to keep pushing the envelope, will step in. It was inevitable.
It sucks to be in this position as a consumer. I want to support the devs for the game I love, but I can't without giving my money to their terrible management.
Yes, I agree. It's also difficult to put money into a game that may be a dead game walking. They are in a very difficult spot.
In this game, the only winners are the ones already winning. Screw corporations.
Bungie executives are delusional as hell. They want to keep their freedom and salaries. One has to be traded for the other. The only way they can survive is by personal sacrifice they won't do.
The best way to support those devs is to follow them on social media, send them messages, thank them for their hard work, broadcast their work to the world as much as possible. Because paying more money will ONLY support the management that has caused the game to bottom out and grow even more bankrupt of innovation.
To be fair, this all started with the devs doing a bad job. Nobody cared about higher ups/upper management during the Witch Queen, Taken King, Forsaken, Beyond Light, etc.
It's really hard to believe that the upper management came to the devs saying "hey, we need to create a really bad expansion. Lightfall needs to be one of the worst things we ever did, ok? Destroy the story, screw the game, take the servers off, do whatever it takes for the game to hit the very rock bottom!". People can scream all they want about mismanagement, etc. but the devs failed at the very basic with the DLC, there is no way around it.
Upper management is actually probably doing what Sony told them to do asap, wich means, start to make money now, no matter how. Layoffs are usually part of these methods to increase revenue fast.
Upper management also should be doing a better job at lowering the company costs (instead of wasting on buildings, expensive crap for them, bad marketing, etc.) and also a much better job at getting their devs to do a better job. They failed there (mismanagement).
They always want us to act first (pay) before they actually have something to give us in return. Now it's their turn to act first and earn our money.
it sounds like Bungie's upper management should get 343'd
Fr 343 has been much better off after the leadership change, from a product perspective.
Devs and directors too...they may cry its upper but they are coming up with bs ideas like iron banner this week....absolute disaster
Absolutely. 343 (current) has really turned things around with Halo. Bungie actually needs to copy how they’ve handled things for once lol
Agreed. Halo has been on a upward trend lately.
The grace people give Bungie is ridiculous because for all the hate 343i received, Bungie was far worse in handling Destiny and treating their customers like cash cows.
At this point let Sony have it because management is sucking the company dry
Agreed
They deserve it at this point
This game needed new leadership a LONG time ago
If Sony takes over, they can do whatever they want with Destiny. They don't have to support it. As long Bungie is doing Destiny, they have to care about it because it is their only source of revenue.
Agree. Fire the board and upper management. Will save a lot of money and ditch the idiots keeping the devs from doing their jobs.
Upper managment is frying up Destiny 2, I'd say do it Sony, a change is what we need
We're screwed either way, unless the new overseer striaght up accepts to do whatever the dev team suggests and heard the community, nothing will change except monetization systems a wee bit.
Sony has no idea how to run a live game. If you think the game is “bad” now, it would be absolutely horrible if Sony took over
@@terrible1fi sounds like a cool reason to make destiny 3 and make it NOT a live game.
Hell no. Sony's track record for mismanagement of games as live service is piss poor. This is a bad take.
@@jameslistug4044 Then make it not a live service anymore :)
I think the most important thing everyone could take away from this Bungie financial situation is, short term gains lead to long term struggles. The entire corporate world the last 10 years has only cared about short term profitability. I'm not sure why this is, but anyone with even a high school semester in either macro or micro economics understands how a supply/ demand graph works and that yopu always want to shoot for long term, steady growth.
Hopefully the entire industry is taking a good hard look at Bungie and learning what not to do. Unfortunately, I don't think we will see any shifts in the industry over night. Just earlier this year Bungie was the benchmark for "how to run live service games" giving, essentially, TED talks to other developers on how to do it at GDC.
Short term gains are lines of cocaine they can’t stop snorting. Preferably on a stripper’s tits, in Bobby Cockdick’s case. He wants to party hard and can’t see further than the end of his nose as he’s doing those lines. As is every other company stuck in the short term circle jerk.
Steve Jobs put it perfectly when he talked about the rise and fall of companies, and the degradation of a product, always because financial takes over decision making positions, rather than product development. You see a similar issue in Hollywood with constant remakes and sequels to movies they know work, killing the creativity of that space for the sake of guaranteed profit, which stems from the same flawed and broken ideology.
Because we live in a world where most leadership positions are filled by nepotists or connections rather than people who are actually good at their job. The "rich white stupid boy whos daddy owns the company" stereotype is a lot more painfully accurate than I would like. Statistically, 85% of jobs are filled through connections, not by actually knowing your shit.
I mean Bungie constantly proves they can't manage themselves. Hence why they always need bailed out by a bigger company with cash injections.
But that’s sort of the problem the people that make these bad decisions have been long overdue be removed
@@alexfromproduce1521 Very true!
Yeah but Sony are proving their ability to be deaf and just rise prices and barely move quality. Sony isn't a solution at all.
@@Dynasty1818 Sony was the only solution. Bungie wouldn't exist in the near future without Sony money. Sony is great for Bungie IMO. Sony can remind them they are a business not a cuddlefest. They exist to make money making games. I also feel with this wording this was Sony's over all plan. Bungie is known industry wide to be poorly managed and burn through cash. Sony saw a way to acquire Bungie knowing they would fail themselves and Sony could remove Bungie's portion and take over.
@@Dynasty1818bungie hasn't made new content in forever and finds new ways to make you pay to play
It might be a blessing in disguise, Hermen Hulst seems like a competent dude and I'm not sure what logic there is in relying on the current heads at Bungie to get them out of the mess that they themselves caused. I'm at the point now where i truly don't see a future for Destiny as things stand, will be interesting to see what unfolds
Not for us cross platform players...
@@TheArtificialGamingSony isn’t going to take Destiny 2 off other platforms
Sony has ZERO mp IPs cause they can’t make nor manage them.. They also don’t like investing into their games for more than a year or so.. Remember all those “Halo killers” they made??? Exactly.. If Sony leads them they’ll be worst than Bungie management ever was..
@@sandwichdude97 especially if profit is what they're after.
So competent he alongside Jim Ryan are seeing their live service stategy crumble
not to mention Killzone went to shit and Horizon couldn't be more boring.... but honestly he can't be any worse than the current leadership at bungie lol
As an "outsider" who always had interest in the Destiny IP but thinks the entry barrier is terribly high, I would love to see Bungie returning to "finite" games. Bungie being Sony's biggest studio, I think they would have enough people to have teams that would continue to support their service games as well a team to produce "regular" cinematic Sony games with a beginning, middle and end every 4 to 5 years.
The reason people stuck around for D2 so long (myself included) is because you can see how much potential is available for this game. There's tons of room for story, tons of room for gameplay, and so much more. However, it either gets watered down, stretched out, or shelved because they didn't want us to have higher expectations or "overdeliver."
The contract with Activision was actually to make 4 of those 'finite' games. Destiny 1 is still a game of such nature (and it's also why it's so good, and to me truly the last Bungie game). The problem is, people misunderstood a quote and kept on insisting bungie promised D1 would be a 10 year game (when it was talking about a franchise, not game), so for D2 they caved in, unprepared for actually supporting a title for 10 years (which is why something breaks every other week in D2) and we end up with the pile of shit we have today. Destiny was always at it's best when it embraced it's Halo and Borderlands roots, not this 'MMO' (lite) non-sense that leads to quantity over quality content.
I agree with your analysis Paul.. I have not purchased the final shape, have not purchased anything from eververse in 10 months and my playing time has decreased from 6-8 hours a day to 3 hours every 2- 3 weeks. Destiny 2 has so much potential, but the top executives has run this company into the ground and created a toxic work environment. Interesting note I used to get an email from a 3rd party company around November time frame asking me different questions to evaluate my destiny 2 gaming experience. I gave them a bad review last year and did not receive that email this year. Hmmm🤔🤔🤔
I got that same email, but when I selected my race as white and male I didn't expect to hear back from them...
Same experience except I haven’t played the past few months and just been playing other stuff. Destiny demanded a lot of time on top of everything you’ve said, and now playing other games, I’ve realized it wasn’t worth it as much to me.
You can buy Final Shape without the episodes like i did. You just won't get the pre order gun for a year. No big loss and you save money.
@@JizzyNinja I know a lot of people who quit during season of defiance and they just never got back into it- they say that the game was an addiction and finally free of it so I totally understand the lack of enjoyment from an objectively mediocre game.
I've been playing some Halo and other games tbh and I've had more fun with games from 15 years ago versus Destiny with its insane mtx and overly aggressive monetization.
@@FrogOf4Chan Yeah man, white males are so persecuted. It must be rough out there lmao
It would be interesting to learn according to the contract with Sony, what happens to Bungie management if Sony takes over the board. If there's a clause in there that guarantees buyouts/big severance packages for Bungie management, I would find it hard to believe this wasn't deliberate sabotage.
🤔
It sucks to see Bungie like this. I don't want Destiny to die, its been part of my life for almost 10 years 😔
I hear you. It's a sad situation that alot of people from what I see say Sony might be better than bungie...but I have never seen a successful live service game from Sony so...I am conflicted
I’m right with you. I’ve been playing since launch and absolutely love the game but man are they making it hard. I will continue to support them till they die. Support just gonna be less than previous times.
Everything dies at some point. It's sad but inevitable. But we mourn until we're satisfied and continue to live. It's the natural cycle of things in this universe.
Sony can make some great games, and even as a hardcore destiny fan I can confidently say.
Bungie is running destiny into the ground, if any company can save the game its probably sony.
Same
It seems obvious to me now more than ever as time goes on and more information comes out, that Bungies 45% under performance is solely down to them over selling themselves and deliberately misleading Sony over the their actual financial situation and not a very large or mistaken miscalculation in their projected forecast.
Worse still they knew this and they knew the affect it would have regarding the people who were laid off. Even worse we now know their own people on the dev side of Destiny have been telling them all along that they were heading for disaster. Add to that we had Justin Truman's GDC 2022 presentation, which is aging like milk in the desert, and how they handled Destiny as a product and over delivery and quality isn't the best way to run a live service, they are now telling us that Final Shape is going to be comparable to Forsaken which is a full 180 over how they've managed the game since leaving Activision, good luck getting that sorted with a workforce that has obviously got really low moral, has been ignored, and had their numbers cut because the people that were supposed to make sure they had job security and a stable future failed utterly at that task, the same people who are still there even after their failure and telling them they now have to do what they've been told not to do for at least the last 5 years since Forsaken and the split from Activision.
I can't even begin to imagine what fun it must be like to work under such a bunch of negligent stupid c**ts. What's worse is that if they do some how manage to turn it all around they will be patting themselves on the back for avoiding a disaster that was all their own making and quite probably avoidable. If it were me and I was the person at Sony with the final say, I'd smoke the lot of them and show them the door with nothing but a months severance and I'd be pissed about giving them that much. Why is failing upwards not only a thing but accepted?
I love Destiny, it's been my personal WoW. I love the lore, the characters, the world.
I just want it to succeed and for more people to have the chance to enjoy it as I have.
It’s hard to tell if this would be good or bad, it honestly could go either way. The people that instantly think this would be great seem to forget how everyone thought Bungie separating from Activision would be amazing, improve the game, and lead to less greed/microtranactions… and we all know how that’s turned out.
True but I think the reasoning here is Bungie management said Activision was the problem and they've consistently been the push for monetizing. Finally we're here with a massive revenue miss (which is inherently management). Agreed it's knee jerk but at this point the game is good the business model is bad and Sony could be a breath of fresh air.
Difference is bungie managment was always smelling shit and blaming others for shitting their pants. Only know we realised we only smell shit when pete parsons opens his mouth. Suddenly enough people arent so inclined to hang out with shit for breath over here, and were kinda rooting for whoever can get the stink out😅 because no one enjoyed the smell of shit. But usually it went away quick enough to forget about it.
It was better under activision imo
@@bells5385 I agree.
Maybe but there needs to be some change. I’ll take the gamble with Sony. Otherwise, destiny will die.
Jesus Christ... It's so sad it got to this, such a scary situation...
Bungie management sucks, but Sony taking the reins would probably not be the saviour you’re looking for.
This.
It was gonna be one way or the other. PlayStation destroys Bungie or Bungie destroys PlayStation. Both companies have terrible management and are genuinely out of touch with consumer trends. Live Service gaming??? NFTs??? Both companies will crumble to Xbox Gamepass and they only have themselves to blame for it.
@@xCobraCommanderxAgreed. PS has been my main platform forever and they’ve been making some poor decisions. I thought the Bungie acquisition was a bad idea from the beginning
@xCobraCommanderx play station has the best studios around. They have the best exclusives and titles by a MILE. Sony would force Bungie to actually produce a quality product. This is exactly what needs to happen. Bungie is a disaster.
@@xCobraCommanderx copium take the game pass is dogshit and was made for lack of exclusives compared to sonys goated line up
Bungie ruined themselves when they started putting pronouns by their job titles.
On one hand, Bungie management needs to go at this point, starting with Mr. Overdelivery, idk his name but him and his philosophy, and those like him are killing this game. Same philosophy that sees low revenue and throws a $15 "Starter pack" up thinking it will help fix the problem. Throw that out, right out the window.
On the other hand, who the hell knows what SONY would do with this game.
Justin Truman
I was laid off out of VFX back in April, first thing that happened was a hiring freeze in the November before that, then a Salary freeze going into 2023 then layoffs starting in April.
It truly feels like a no-win situation for Bungie
As a player, I took a bit of a break earlier this fall as a ton of new games dropped, then the layoffs hit and really soured me on jumping back in.
Though by all accounts the season and dungeon are solid, as you have said: quality doesn't matter right now.
I just don't care, and that is a dangerous place for Bungie to be in with players
I have tremendous respect for Bungie. They didn't just launch the Xbox and, frankly, give it a fighting chance... they showed everyone how to do FPS on the console. At that time people were still saying it just isn't going to work on console. They deserve all the respect in the world for saying they were ready to move on from Halo, while at the same time delivering on their promise and producing their most complex and possible greatest stories at the end of their Halo run. Then they go and invent a new game type of FPS meets ongoing game (now we call it live service) and making that into an empire. To be fair, while I will never get enough of their Halo work, I didn't enjoy Destiny at all... but that doesn't make it less worthy of respect or less of an accomplishment.
It will be awful to see this company go, but I question... I don't know the answer to this... is it still Bungie anymore or have all the main players from Myth and Halo and Destiny and so on moved on?
The vast majority of staff who worked on Halo and prior games are long gone. The name of the company continues on, but the actual people who made Halo magic are scattered to the winds.
Thanks for the replies. I still replay Halo campaigns to this day. I got to the introduction of the Flood late at night on the Xbox's launch day. I am truly grateful for that experience and the surprise. I know how passionate people are about Destiny so my conclusion is it is truly great they managed to strike big again and transform gaming. I know Paul's analysis is a grim outlook but I understand the conclusion. I was hoping they might transform the industry again with Marathon. We'll see.
honestly i know i am not a business person but its absolutely CRAZY to me that their number one top priority hasnt been focusing on getting new players into the game. revenue is down because they have to market to the SAME players each time. someone spends $100 on eververse you have to expect the SAME people to spend that money next season too. get more people into the game. make shadowkeep AND beyond light free at this point. so many complaints is that the seasonal model is tiresome. its tiresome because its the same people playing the game since shadowkeep of course theyre gonna get tired out. new players hopping into season of the witch and wish would absolutely LOVE it and wouldn’t have complaints. i wouldnt be surprised if into the light is 80% designed for new players in mind because they sure as hell arent meeting revenue goals with the same current players
Honestly, this could be the best thing for destiny.
Current leadership: 0% chance of success after TFS
Sony leadership: unknown chance of success. I'll roll the dice
I'm conflicted. A part of me wants to see Bungie collapse because I played since D1 and I feel this player base has the biggest case of Stockholm Syndrome. They are constantly abused with mediocre content and expected to pay out the ass for it and the player base keeps doing that. They gave up on PvP and Gambit and made seasonal content more or less just rinse and repeat variations of the same thing over and over. But I know this isn't the ground teams fault. They tried to advocate for us and tell the managers what needed to happen to make the player base happy and they were ignored. So for them to potentially be out of the job is heartbreaking and I don't want them to be punished for bad management. But if Bungie collapsing gives enough warning to other developers not to follow this model then maybe this needs to happen.
Sony taking over sounds like a great idea from here. They fired some great talent and they might do it again. Great employees are what make a great company. A great company is dissolving and upper management are protecting themselves.
Have you seen Sony's decisions lately? The past few years they've made some really bad ones around money, rising prices everywhere and no change in quality really. I don't really see them improving things if they take over. If anything things will get more expensive.
Got any more tales from your ass?@@Dynasty1818
Sure,sounds great,not only will it be a Sony excusive ,but all new games will just be full of QuickTime events..Sony would destroy destiny
@@Dynasty1818Stuff to do with console costs and developer relationship are completely different
Destiny is dead. I was thinking more about talented people continuing to have jobs and no just randomly let go while upper management sits in hot tubs and drinks wine. @@craigshelhammer5683
That's a lot of cost-cutting measures. I can't help but notice that pay cuts for management wasn't on that list.
I really wonder what a Sony-managed Bungie would look like in a few years. I don't know of any other game dev companies that Sony directly manages like that to compare against. It's not hard to say "It can't get much worse" as I'd guess the worst thing they could do is just end support for Destiny as a whole.
As for the existing staff, I feel terrible for them as 100% expect that the moment Final Shape launches, there will likely be more layoffs no matter how good it does. Assuming it does good and makes a lot of $$$, management would likely want to lay off more staff to make that new money go even further to make up for their lack of revenue last year. On the other hand if it fails, RIP their jobs again as the studio is likely done for in its current form (for better or worse).
In short, they should update their resumes and start looking just in case.
Push comes to shove they offer the whole game beginning to end as a solo experience you can play offline
"Management will want to do layoffs to make sure that new money goes straight into their bank accounts."
Dang, how far they have fallen. Reminds of that quote “You either die a hero or live long enough to see yourself become a villain.” - Harvey Dent
It’s so frustrating because the solution and problem is so painfully obvious. All of these problems are because we’ve had absolutely terrible new player on boarding. I don’t know how they neglected it for so long it’s insane. Veteran players burn out and play other games. You NEED constant new players to come in.
Shaw Han is not enough to get new players on board. And now we’re at Endgame. Why would any player join now? It’s reaching the over. They already missed it and there’s no way to replay past story
This is the consequence of poor player onboarding. No new players no new spenders. All you have is declining player numbers and declining revenue. They have the data. They should’ve seen this coming a mile away. Upper management must seriously be brain dead
"Nobody plays the old campaigns"
The old campaigns after completion:
1 campaign mission on weekly rotation(flashpoint)
Random campaign mission in the vanguard playlist.
Hmm. I wonder why people weren't engaging with content that could only be completed once.
Just the fact purchasing the newest expansion (for a $100 if you go with basically the complete thing) doesn't give you access to every previous expansion (like other MMO games, the thing destiny claims it is when it's convenient to do) is bad enough.
But player on boarding it's just one of the many problems plaguing destiny...having a better experience for newbies is not going to make the story suddenly good, the seasonal content any less of a copy paste, features that should have been here since a decade ago (like LFG) arrive any faster or the braindead AI any smarter... i'd argue the root of the issue was the seasonal model, quality is just unsustainable with this model.
A bad game can survive as long as theirs new players to scam, but if there is no new players and the current ones get older then they start to learn the bullsh*t tactics.
Agree 100%. Old players drift away due to burnout/ getting older and having more RL responsibilities etc while barely any new players join - it's a slow death spiral.
Honestly if they bundled all three Witcher armors together for 20 bucks I feel like they would make more then they would currently since more people would buy the bundle that would never buy a single set.
Or have it earned in game
@@omensoffate True, that would be the best option. I am under the impression that crossover armors need to be sold for cash contractually.
Yeah definitely. I decided not to buy it as I'm not spending that much for a single armour set, especially since the hunter one is a bit meh and that's the class I main.
They need to make the game more consumer-friendly. Well, they needed to do that years ago. Make transmog free, give discounts on silver, make earnable currency more powerful, free gifts on occasion, get rid of dungeon keys, make the game economy way easier to break into for new players, and allow F2P players access to seasonal content. If they make it so that the game isn't an obviously radioactive wallet-killer, people would be more open to engaging with it and eventually spending. Also, they really needed to fix the new-player experience. Too late for any of that now. If any other company made Destiny 2, it would be compared to some of the most infamous gamigo-style cash grabs.
dungeon keys kinda suck but the quality of the dungeons under this system has been well above those that came before. it's way easier for me to justify spending $30 on both dungeon keys, than spending $40 on a campaign as bad as lightfall.
It is unbelievable that a single decision lead to all of this trouble. Someone and some point decided to make lightfall the gap stop that it was when they did not have enough content to put into it and thought people will still buy it and be happy. Lightfall was really good mechanics wise IMO, streamlined a lot of systems, strand was and is still a really good subclass that did not outshine all other subclasses like stasis did but the story, after the fantastic story that witch queen and its seasons had (I did not like plunder but it was ok) we got Lightfall.
So idk if they have a 3rd darkness subclass in the works but if they do i would make the new light supers part of the free into the light event then advertise the new darkness subclass as part of the final shape, and make most if not all previous dlc's free for those who login durring the into the light event. That might bring up new player count and please free to play people aswell as add good publicity. But i doubt any of that would happen
those are my exact thoughts
Man at this point they would have to create new fragments and aspect for all classes.
Increase the amount of fragments and aspects we can have at once
The new subclass would have to be absolutely amazing
There would also need to be new variants for all enemy classes and several different variants
And thats just a start.
it seems like management change would be necessary, no doubt. but I'm afraid it'll be either like, trying to save a sinking ship by scooping out the water and not filling the holes, or something worse as far as a management team. kinda like Arbiter said in Halo 3, "we trade one villain for another." Or, they just liquidate Bungie as a whole to try and make up for revenue loss.
Interesting. Not sure if this would be a bad thing, as long as they keep their promise to let Destiny and other Bungie games stay multi platform.
bungie's future releases wouldn't be
@@sunnydaze905lol, ok
As a long time Bungie fan; as in back the to Mac-only days, I always wonder the same thing: where’s Jason Jones, the only remaining founder and team member, in all this? I met Jason personally several times, as I used to be a game-focused journalist myself in the distant past, and he was extremely intelligent, open to new ideas, friendly, and exploding with new ideas. If he’s become wrapped in so many layers of management that he can no longer make a difference, that’s a tragic shame.
One day you'll have a cool animated intro and it will truely be a day to remember.
How are we (the d2 community) supposed to pre-order a product (the final shape) if we don't know anything about it? The reveal trailer was good-looking but a bunch of nonsense.
Just some throwback scenes and nothing about the DLC. What's in it? There was nothing to get me excited about it or pique my interest in it.
FF14 isnt really a fair comparison cause it's just very different. But I feel like if im down to throw down a monthly sub 8 months out of the year for FF14 but balk at the seasons/battlepasses of Destiny 2 says a lot of how differently i enjoy one over the other in a casual sense.
With FF14 i feel like players are chill and forgiving, the story and content is accessible in its entirety, and I don't feel like im missing much if i take a few months break
D2 feels like I HAVE to make the most out of a season, like its a second job. Have to grind currencies. Have to grind missions and weapon levels. Have to do this or else I lose out on the rewards. Doing Vanguard Strikes SUCKS cause if I stop sprinting to speed to the end my other team mates are going to kill everything and leave me in the dust.
And even after all that, I have this deep bubbling anxiety that all these weapons and mods are just going to be wiped out or sunset to be repackaged for a 10-20 dollar dungeon/season just like the Seraph or Ikelos Weapons. Which I dont even have a point to use other than looks cause the warmind cell armor mods were removed. Why grind if the stuff i grind for might be worthless someday?
If any upper management wont take a pay cut and instead laid off a bunch of employees, they are automatically assigned as trash in my eye and should be replaced asap.
exactly. refusing to take a pay cut to keep the company together is the worst message from a leader. "screw everyone else, i want my money" is the entire message I'm getting. You can fall down in the alley with your briefcase of money like the businessman in AKIRA, leadership.
Welp Paul knows his data, patterns, trends, the gaming industry, Destiny and BUNGIE along with countless sources culminating in a pretty damn accurate analog for having his finger on the pulse of this situation...... this does not bode well for my favorite game. Thanks for the hard work Paul.
Puck Faul
@@TheBlackGreatWhite83 🤣🤣
I believe this would be catastrophic to those who play and have always played Destiny on Xbox. Really wish someone would give a damn about us, but the PC and PlayStation crowd seem to think this would be a great thing.
I'd like to see the player count on console also I think the multiple changes in direction and ownership and partners the game is doomed to end on a bad note
I don’t care who is in control at this point. I just hope the employees can get out safely and find a new job somewhere.
Best thing Bungie can do at this point is put their design team to work and make them pump out a crap ton of the best armor ornaments we’ve ever seen and push out new broken weapons we can earn in the new season activity and dungeon to interest new consumers to buy the season. I say 20 new armor sets, half for purchase and the other half earn-able in game.
The only studios I can see handling this game is vicarious visions and the other studio, that worked on forsaken
I think the only way they get a huge chunk of preprders is if they have been cooking the final shape even before the delay and show us a crazy trailer or gameplay footage that really shocks us. we all know all the trailers and shit look cool and make it look better than it is but if they dropped a crazy trailer maybe sharing some of those close to the chest secrets or something might help, they might need to show some coming the next couple months
They either mess up really bad or intended to do this.
I'm honestly surprised that sony didn't step in when the layoffs happened.
I don't think I personally see a problem with Sony taking over management and leaving the devs to do their thing while being managed better (Assuming that's the route they're discussing). I think that can only be an improvement, honestly. Bungie has proved time and again that the worst part of their company is their upper management.
Agreed, upper management in Bungie is running destiny into the ground.
Sony has proven that they can make amazing games.
They could save the game and make it better than Bungie was making it.
But they could also have it crash
Really my only concern with Sony is the whole PS exclusive bullshit. Not gonna buy a new console and rebuy expansions if destiny has exclusives again and I’ll probably quit if they put exclusives on PS
This is sad honestly, I was bummed with the initial story telling in the LF campaign (the veil going unexplained, nimbus) but since have been really enjoying everything. And after learning what the veil is I actually think the story as a whole is really good, I think it’s just a pacing problem.
I think it’s actually been a really good year of content from an objective stand point, but it fumbled in its most important moments. It’s really sad to see it end up like this.
I've not played since the LF campaign do we know WTF the Veil is yet?
@@mildlydazed9608 yeah man, and I honestly think it’s a cool explanation, in combo with what strand is!! “Veil containment” and the seasonal storylines for the first two seasons wrap up the LF story, makes sense why we were on neomuna and adds gravity to us “losing” in LF. All stuff I wish we could’ve learned in the campaign. It was paced pretty rough but all together is actually really good
To me it's crazy that Bungie is like "we lost 45% of some random amount of money we thought we would get in the future" and I'm like "if you never saw that money in your hands, that money was never yours hence you never lost it". I don't know where Bungie got their revenue projections but it was clear they were completely off from reality. The language used is very telling about how this whole thing works, cuz to me saying "we earned less revenue than we expected based on our projections" and "we lost revenue" are two completely different ideas addressing two different problems but it seems that for Bungie, those two sentences are one and the same. To me this just looks like someone on Bungie hyping a bit too much the projections so then they can say "we didn't earned as much money as we could" so then they have the green light to implement even heavier monetization schemes on the game so the game looks more "profitable" on the books as if Destiny 2 wasn't already a profitable game. It takes me back when Activision looked at Forsaken, probably one of the most successful Destiny 2 expansion launches ever and they still deemed it a "failure". Feels that at this point, for the people managing the coins, if Destiny 2 isn't the most popular, most successful, most profitable game in the entire industry, then it's a complete failure and should be monetized even more, probably.
It's corpo capitalist wall street nonsense. In their world if you're projecting making 1 million in profits but only make 999,999k in PROFIT you're seen as a failure. Conversely if you make well over your projections you can also be seen as a failure. They don't operate by the rules of the real world.
I think we all see now why Activision left when they did. They saw the writing on the wall and sold when it was high.
Man in all my years I would have never expected Destiny to go through its own Forespoken (the game) moment. Do so poorly the publishing house takes you over. But the again, as Forespoken's protagonists said "I destroyed a videogame studio with my f-ing mind", and to quote another character from the same strand of videogame characters "the uglier they are the harder they fall".
Honestly, i hope they dismantle the actual board. They have gone in a greed spree the past few years.
Bungie should be fully acquired by Sony so they can fix management and get the Devs back and even add more Devs to the team.
I just wish the game had a complete story package
It's impossible for Sony to mismanage Bungie more than Bungie has
At what point does Bungie/Sony ask the PLAYERS what we want?
Anecdotal but every single person i know thats played Destiny is firmly not buying TFS for at least two months to see what its like after the honeymoon period. We all know how much these companies put on day one numbers and i am not going to be shocked if Lightfall was the final straw for so many they are not going to hit their targets. Just imagine ending a ten year thing and completely imploding at the finish line.
The witness won and ended the game
They should unionize, then get a supermajority of their fellow Bungie workers on board to strike (preventing firing, because you can’t fire the majority of workers and survive) until upper management signs a magna carta detailing transition of Bungie into a worker co-op.
If Sony can rescue Bungie from it's own management and their mismanagement of the Company........then that is what Sony should do.
I'm shocked that anyone is surprised by this -- especially Paul, since he works for Forbes after all -- but in business acquisitions, the parent company is only willing to buy another company and leave them independent subsidiary if it's in their financial best interest. That typically means the company can give profit to the parent company, which of course requires them to meet their own revenue and profit targets -- and since it's early in the acquisition, the revenue and profit targets were set by the subsidiary themselves.
If the subsidiary misses revenue, the order of remedies typically is something like:
1. The subsidiary makes cuts to meet their goals. ("You missed your numbers, but we'll give you one chance to make it right")
2. The parent company replaces the board of the subsidiary. ("YOU clearly can't run it to make the goals you set, so let's put someone in place that can")
3. The parent company wholly absorbs the subsidiary. ("Since our bigger company works, maybe this can work as a part of our company")
4. The parent company sells the subsidiary for parts ("This was a bad idea so let's fire whoever suggested this and cut our losses")
Step 1 is what happened in October -- the timing is in-line with Sony's Q2 internal reporting (their FY ends on 31 March) -- and since Sony is a publicly traded company, it's going to happen before Q2 results hit Wall Street. The other things that Paul mentions are just standard belt tightening.
Step 1 also likely came with adjusted revenue targets for the rest of FY24 (includes TFS delay and lower player count), FY25 (includes TFS) and FY26 (includes Marathon). Bungie should be safe until next October, where TFS sales and trends will give Sony an idea of whether Bungie can make its FY24 goals. All bets are off if there's another miss.
If Sony takes over that might just be the nail in the coffin for Destiny given Sony has made it fairly clear they are backing away from live service games. This new is terrifying.
whats even more terrifying is that bungie needs sony.
Sony isn't backing away from live service but they are trying not to bite off more that they can chew in that regard.
Unfortunately true. if those holding the strings actually listened to real feedback we could have easily avoided this situation. However, based on a lot of former employee testimonies, there was an outcry to get so much approved but no one upstairs were listening. Well, here we are. @@Dhunt17
At this point Bungie doesn't deserve Destiny.
I think the entire point of them buying Destiny was for them to eventually start spearheading their live service games since Sony has not being doing well with it. Like Paul said their single player games are amazing but their live service stuff has been struggling. It was reported a while ago that Sony was taking a step back from live service game and recently they shelved over half their future live service projects. Sure, it could be them trying to take it slow but this screaming abandonment to me. I guess we will have to see. @@Luke973T
Honestly, Sony kicking the board and taking over would probably be a positive change. I love Destiny (and parts of Bungie), but Bungie as an entity (through poor leadership) has been kicking players in the gut for too long.
I bought a silver pack so I can save some jobs. I know I know, not all heroes wear capes
if you’re a Hunter you do 😉
Buying microtransactions right now has the opposite effect. You're telling them they don't need employees, they only need MS. This is the time to NOT BUY.
Back where we started. Time is a flat circle.
Let’s be honest, Bungie would have been better off being acquired by Xbox. Not only would they have been left alone, but Sony is no MS in terms of resources. Sony doesn’t even make the type of games Bungie makes.
They wouldn’t be having any of these issues. The only difference is MS would own their IP.
Halo infinite is just now up to launch standards 2 years later and if it weren't for the game getting ridiculed so bad then it would have launched a year prior in an even worse state. Halo is the mario of xbox and they allowed this.
Everything points to the Final Shape being the final curtain for Destiny. I'm actually ok with that as being a solo player, my feelinhg is that Destiny has essentially abandoned the solo player by making even certain story missions that are EXTREMELY difficult to do on your own. IYes, there is LFG and a in-game LFG finder coming, but I despise LFG as I rarely get matched up with randos that I can stand as I am an older player (going back to PONG days) and just cannot relate to most of them and cringe listening to them. )I suppose I could mute/lower chat vclume more) Again, this is MY experience.
Why some of those story missions re NOT matchmade is beyond me. In any case, fine with me if Destiny fades away as am catching up with all the great single-player games I missed over the last year like Elden Ring, Baldurs Gate, Spider-Man One and Two, God of War Ragnarok, Harry Potter, etc.
I will miss the gunplay though... I'll probably log on enough to complete the story using LFG when needed (which I hate) and then that will be it.
Great news. People need to learn what happens when devs lose their way.
Not the devs. Upper management is at fault here and have been for a very long time.
I swear to god I feel like I’m going crazy. All they need to do for the new player experience is to charge 1x cost for the game and the latest DLC with all previous DLCs being included free. This would get so so many more players in and easily be worth more than a few people buying all the expansions
Seems to me that Bungie hoped that being super liberal and continuously playing woke cards would equal out to profitability. I remember them trying to shame people for expressing how having unrealistic employment standards and trying to placate loud, but very fringe groups would be both very expensive, and turn off a large portion of their audience. People may disagree, but the list of things they've just cut, plus the mass layoffs spell it out. Also makes sense as to why their community teams were gutted hardest. Many other companies have suffered the same fate in the last few years, and they always seem to start by trying to remove themselves from the divisiveness of social issues. When you alienate a significant portion of your audience in hopes that the (usually significantly smaller) remaining portion will cover those losses, you're setting yourself up for failure.
Bungie went all in on the seasonal model and forgot that the game needed to be fun.
Who would have thought that creating an "assembly line" that churns out mostly boring content, would back-fire?!??
Anti-player decisions had consequences and they are paying the price.
Fire all Bungie Suits and take over. Yes please.
I wonder how the 40% revenue miss measures up to the revenue Bungie brought in during the year of Witch Queen's release? Is all this happening because Bungie and Sony made an agreement that the money machine would continue to print money at an increasing rate? At some point the players of games will have no more money to give than they already do and if you ask them to pay more just to keep playing then they will stop playing.
this is what can happens when a company decides to go for quantity over quality. and taking advantage of a loyal community, having them front the bill for those projects that arent even necessarily being made for them while at the same time not giving anything of quality to them in return. (quantity referring to multiple aaa titles.)
I mean how hard would it have been to make dungeons apart of the battle pass as a gesture of good faith after the dumpster fire management has created. nope instead what we got was a 15 dollar "starter" pack. but you know what guys and girls as much as I feel for the honest devs that just want to make good games. companies need to be allowed to fail when the continually produce a bad product or have bad business practices, which bungie is guilty of both right now. companies failing for these reasons is a needed part of a free market and consumer protection. again while I dont want that to happen there is a point where it needs to.
I feel like they should totally rethink the structure of Destiny as a whole for its upcoming chapters. Destiny is following a gameplay loop and model thats 10 years old almost and hasnt changed dramatically that whole time. Weve been fighting the fallen, hive, cabal, and vex and loading in from orbit for 10 years and theres not that many ways you can make that feel fresh anymore.
For fun: there's been two threads so far on Steam about this stuff, one started by me linking this video and another from someone else catching people up. Both have been locked, mine with a grand total of 3 comments and the other with none.
Note: this is a self-'copy/pasta' from another post I made:
....and suddenly it all makes sense.
The recent monetization and seasonal price increases were due to the board (and perhaps other high-ranking executives) trying to ensure they continued to exist.
Here's what I think the game needs to succeed:
1) Remove the artificial difficulty introduced in Lightfall (that is, old 8 is the new 10) in most casual activities. This includes overly negative modifiers like Togetherness and Attrition for amazing seasonal content like The Coil
2) Reverse mod nerfs designed to increase encounter times and grant false engagement metrics. I know they are adjusting some multipliers for mods like Heavy Handed, but outright revert it to the previous version
3) REDUCE all EV silver purchases by 50%. I imagine it's easier to get two folks to buy a $10 Witcher III ornament set rather than gambling on one person to buy it for $20
4) Stop trying to make 'wacky IB modes' a thing! Just give us Control, Clash and perhaps channel D1 to occasionally give us Mayhem
5) Reduce the ridiculous engram cost increases for focusing
6) Make the Eververse engrams on a knockout system again that excludes 'the current season-minus three' (Basically, that still leaves one year and all seasonal event merch for EV). If the knockout system is completed, the rewards are A Small Gift of Bright Dust and the rare chance for a Large Gift of Bright Dust.
7) Speaking of events, fold the additional event card as a perk for the new season
At this point I don't even know if I want even play final shape
same here and i've played since d1
If Bungie somehow manages to escape these financial troubles and launches Marathon, I think an interesting idea to sunset Destiny 2 but continue the Destiny universe would be to launch a “Destiny: Fall of The Golden Age” game, in the same vein as Reach.
It’d obviously mashed up with things we like about Destiny and maybe some new game modes. Think Horde modes, or extraction where we are tasked with hiding or saving Golden Age tech.
Going in the ancient Destiny past would be a breath of fresh air for the narrative team that wouldn’t be tied down to a lot of the current characters and lore surrounding them, and free them to create new characters and story arcs.
What about the email for all pre orders were canceled. Since the delayed changed
You nailed it right on the head - what can they do at this point to fix the fallout in players? Offer the whole game free to pay for a limited time? That would certainly help with new players but then you piss off people who paid for the content and it’s not a guarantee that veteran players come back to the game.
Maybe for Eververse, they can offer more enticing affordable packaged deals. Or maybe a subscription to where you get a certain amount of items per month. (Of course it would just be within a certain pool to choose from, and they can add more items to the pool every so often.)
It sucks that Bungie is in this state, but it’s self inflicted, and it might be too late, too time consuming and expensive to fix.
If they would quit pricing the eververse like this is a truly free to play game, that would go a long way. They would have gotten the $60 off me if the last 3 cosmetic crossovers were $20 for all 3 sets. Instead of them wanting me to spend $180, I spent $0. I would have spent $60.
That on top of seemingly tone deaf balance changes is a major factor in my desire to continue investing post final shape.
Diablo 4 has been super fun lately. I don't need sidearms to do high tier content like nightmare dungeons
At the very end of the seasonal pass of season one of Destiny One, playable content that was purchased by consumers in season one was patched and updated by Bungie.
The purchased content was playable as long as you had a minimum number item power reached.
Bungie RAISED the item power requirement for the already pre purchased content, and the only way to obtain a higher item power for your already bought content was to buy the very next seasonal pass and content.
This essentially took what every person bought and made it unplayable unless you gave bungie MORE money for content you had ALREADY bought.
Bungie got nothing from my wallet when they raised item power requirements in my bought content from them, and then posted the item power necessary to play my already bought content while it’s unplayable so they could hold that contents replay ability hostage or every player would be forced to have content they could no longer play.
The writing was on the wall long ago at bungie.
The people who are/were working there have seen for years the greediness and shit business practices of that company.
If you’ve ever watched an actual sunset, you’ve seen the sun lower itself behind the horizon. So imagine if you will, watching the sun slowly set on that horizon behind a huge abyss of all the fks I do not give about that company surviving its very deserved end.
Karmas a bitch.
Optimistic take: if Sony replaced the board + executive leadership, and let all the passionate SMEs cook… Giving the devs agency to set deadlines and make strategic calls… it might be an actual path forward.
Lets also admit it. We didn't need lightfall, we shoul've skipped lightfall and go directly into TFS. They should've kept the original plan
So much of this comes down to unrealistic revenue goals. Its not all of the problem, not even close. But it is a huge issue.
I worked a retail/warehouse job (think Lowes, Home Depot, etc) and during covid, we had record sales. Like, ridiculously good sales. Our twice-yearly bonuses were fantastic, and the employees were pretty happy. morale was pretty high, especially considering the circumstances. Upper management then decided that because our sales were so good, that our goal was going to be massively increased, because clearly that revenue growth was sustainable, right?
No. No, it wasn't. Not even close. Turns out, when people don't feel locked in their homes anymore, they stop putting all their money into fixing, improving, and adding onto their homes. So now, every employee is getting the contractually obligated minimum bonus check. For base employees, that's like $100. Which may sound fine, but IIRC, it still gets taxed, so its actually $80ish. Versus the old checks which had been around $200-300 prior to covid, and $400-600 during covid, which many employees used on important purchases, fixing up their own living spaces, making vehicle repairs, or buying gifts for loved ones.
Morale is low now, many have left to find better jobs, and those that haven't don't really need the job, but still put in less effort than previously. It's not a good idea to reward excellent performance with an effectual punishment.
The Final Shape will sell. At least to those of us who care to finish the story. I'm sure some people pre ordered the first three episodes, so they will be played. After that, I don't know. What is my motivation to play with the Light/Dark saga resolved? I've done enough side and character stories. I don't need to fight Vex another hundred times. I'm just playing Destiny for Crucible and Gambit. Two places they sadly feel they can just ignore.
Destiny is an old game. It's time for a new vision. It's time for Destiny 3. New classes, new characters, everything.
What's on the bottom left part of his chin? (Bottom right as we see it) looks reflective almost. Weird
Ya know, I'd rather go with the Devil i know (Sony) and the Devils we Dont (Bungie Management), as we know how Sony is, and what they've done, as for the Bungie Management, they've only made Bad Decisions for Us Players, and for the Destiny 2 Dev Team over the last 2 years and we've really 0nly ahd Pete Parsons as a person to point fingers at.
Not saying that Destiny Dev Team has always done thing we've liked, but they have atleast owned up to what we disliked, and in some cases fixxed shit quickly or communicated such.
Bungie and Destiny is is in Rough Waters, and i dont have faith in Bungie Management recovering from this unfortunately.
The beginning of the end was the split from Activision. Beyond Light and sunsetting half the game really accelerated that even more
My one hope is that if Sony does take over, that they listen more to the devs than current management does.
Maybe they should start making ALL portions of the game more welcoming to EVERYBODY. That's been the problem since day 1 D1.
I am looking forward to the finale. It was a wild 10 year ride but yeah, I am definitely looking forward to laying down the ol' guardian. Too bad we aren't in the timeline where Bungie made Destiny 3 instead of becoming a live service IP.
I wonder how long will the game be available after the last expansion. I might try getting back into it. I stopped playing just after the Mara season mainly because my laptop is struggling with the game.
I’d say Bungie being broken up is the least likely scenario in a takeover. The “experienced live service developer will aid other studios making live service games” was the most aspirational part of the acquisition. The reason why Bungie sold for the price it did was that the brand has value and that value comes primarily from Bungie’s reputation for producing great fps games. They aren’t going to destroy that value by dismantling it. If the aspirational stuff with live service fails, they will fallback on Bungie’s concrete value of making great games. And yeah if the numbers say Destiny 2 is done as a moneymaker and the Destiny franchise needs to be shelved or ended, that might happen. But there’s no way they will give up “from the studio that created Halo and Destiny”. Even if Marathon ends up being a miss the Bungie brand will still have value.