A RETURN TO V8 ENGINES? Opinions on FOM's Proposed 2030 Regulations
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- Опубликовано: 16 май 2024
- Some might be thinking this is something that'll have to happen. Some might be thinking that this is pointless and that F1 should be chasing the latest and greatest tech. But maybe, in a way, you could actually combine the two. Slow burning fuels that are cleaner than standard petrol? Might be a market for that.
The motor insustry is at a weird point. EVs and Hybrids were the way forward but now synthetic fuel is something that might be here. But then, LPG was supposed to be the next big thing but never caught on. Probably because of the cost of entry.
So then, let's look at how this might pan out. Will it happen or is it too soon after 2026?
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modern f1 no sound no overtake with mario kart gadget ...be happy no one proposed banana skin yet ...
It is so weird the obsession with saving fuel on race days. The amount used carting the circus around the globe makes the perceived savings negligible.
Couldn't agree more, Honestly I've been screaming this for years! it was all for publicity, FE had the same problem having to run diesel generators all weekend to charge the cars + global travel which totally negated any "savings" made by having electric cars.
Its not that weird what you understand that for most fuel economy is king when it comes to commuter cars. Which are the best selling cars of brand.
@@Apexseal1on the generators point they are still saving. Just not as much as they could/should.
Electric motors are way more energy efficient than combustion engines (hence the less noise) so the amount of fuel needed to charge an electric car to go somewhere should be less than the amount of fuel needed for it's combustion counterpart.
they would use diesel engines if they want to save fuel, thermal efficiency is sort of fuel efficiency
@@tturi2 not really diesel engines work best for long highway runs not for start and stop cities driving which is what racing is more analogous to.
I'd personally love to see a more open set of engine regs like the early 90s, such as a set capacity, fuel flow limit, open configuration. The all of the engines will sound different and the budget cap should negate overspending.
I'm telling you, F1 needs to adopt Hypercar engines. That 3.5 era was essentially the same but with Group C.
Who cares about fuel flow rule, just set a fuel limit for the race and let they figure out how better spent it
@@bernhardjordan9200 Thats essentially what a fuel flow rule is, take the amount, multiply it by the expected race time and there is your fuel limit. just allows teams a bit more lee way in strategy for cautions/safety cars.
@@nightkil13r no it's not, fuel flow limit is micro managing team strategy. If it wasn't that it would be impossible to Ferrari exploit the rules as they allegedly did
normies would cry that "f1 is too boring" "where is my 5 wide overtake dopamine"
It's not really the loudness of the sound that people miss. F1 had turbocharged V6s in the 80s and they sound so much better than the current V6s. The 3.0 litre V10s had an animalistic, banshee wail to them that made them sound awe-inspiring and terrifying at the same time. I remember reading a comment on a V12 F1 video that described the sound of the 3.5 litre V12 as "a woman having an extremely violent orgasm". The Cosworth DFVs sounded like angry bees. The 2.4 litre V8s with the blown diffusers had a snarl to them when they downshifted that basically made them go brrrr.
Heck, there have been V8s of multiple displacements over the years such as the 1.5 litre V8s of 1961-1965, the 3 litre Cosworth DFV from 1967-1983, the 3.5 litre V8s from 1989-1994, the 3.0 V8s from 1995-1998 (it simply fell out of favour over the V10) and the 2.4 litre V8s from 2006-2013 (the most entertaining era based on how close the championship battles were during those years). Each of those V8s sounded different from each other and some preferred the V8s of one era over the other.
More piston movement = better sound. So either have more pistons moving or rev the pistons you got at a higher RPM.
I don't really think the 80s turbo engines sounded that much better until quite late into the lifespan of those engines. The earlier turbos sounded very similar, the MP4/4 did sound a lot better though. You also had a few teams running turbo 4 cylnders and turbo V8s in that era which gave a bit of variety.
What you say about the different V8 eras is definitely true. Even 2006-2013 the sound did change. From the 20k rpm monsters of 2006, to being 19k limited in 2007 and 18k limited in 2009. The 09-13 sound to me is not my favourite because at 18k rpm they sound kind of synthetic, almost digital. Like a swarm of annoyingly loud mosquitos. I don't quite know how to descibe it. When they revved slightly higher they had a sharper scream and a more noticeable bassy undertone closer to the V10s.
lol
Aidan wearing a Toronto jersey with a Boston hat is a bold choice
I was going to wear my Jays hat at the same time but when you’re wearing a blue hat, blue shirt, blue jeans in a room with blue ambient lighting and the channel theme being blue as well… yeah it looked odd
@@AidanMillward fair. Gotta get you some Blackhawks and Bears gear.
I remember when old v10 engines were relevant on road cars. Nothing like the age of v10 18krpm road cars with pneumatic valve and awesome sound. /s
Is 2030 too late anyway? I feel like the conversation will have just moved on ahead of the F1 rulemakers yet again.
By the time 2026 is signed off they'll go onto 2035 rules where the 'driver' is now more of an "active passenger shock absorber."
People race horses and go horse riding despite cars replacing horses decades ago
Even the level of Bio fuels used right now is way behind what cars are using on the roads today (Well atleast in some countries). Im not sure what the future engines can either be Bio fuel blend or Hydrogen with a hybrid system..?
I guess thats what WEC will do next to be more advanced than F1 and more road relevant!
Too many complex and ridiculous rules and over complication of engines in the name of virtual signaling have made f1 boring as hell and the cars basically drive themselves with ajustments and changes done remotely by technicians compared to before when drivers actually had to manually gear change with only one hand on the wheel half the time and manage the cars problems themselves
@@lonyo5377 Might as well return to the beloved 3 or 3.5 liter V10's.
F1 needs to part ways with road relevance right about now
What reason?
@@apilolomi4354 good propaa fucking racing!
Then what is the draw for car manufacturers to compete in the most expensive motorsport in the world? It’s how F1 has always remained relevant to car manufacturers.
I agree, make them as fast as technologically possible while still being driven by a person. That’s the way the V10s were and they just happened to sound good.
@@haydentomlin9783 If the automakers are deadset on EVs (which doesn't seem to be the case for everyone anymore), then it's time for motorsport to decouple from road relevance and follow the RB model.
This is also a chance for the sport to standardize on a single V10 supplier from an engineering house (think Ilmor, Cosworth, etc.), and let the teams focus on aero and chassis like they always do. It could work.
If FE is automaker's wet dream, it certainly hasn't taken off after 10 years.
On the chicago news. I believe the people that originally brought up the news said something along the lines of "we re-evaluated our source and have decided to take down this article" so i don't think this Chicago thing is actually happening.
Morons should do that before releasing "news."
Shame they didn't get rid of Miami or Las Oval instead...
Being from Chicago, I'm 100% sure its a pipe dream as there has been no discussion of F1 at all in Chcicago. Plus the course that got tweeted out doesn't actually exist (part of the course is on a bike trail).
Yeah there's about zero chance Chicago would get an F1 street race. NASCAR already ties things up a bunch and F1 would tie things up even longer. You try to close things down for however many weeks like they do in Vegas and oh you'll have videos of jumping barriers, scaling fences and telling Liberty Media where to stick it.
I've heard someone say that this could be F1 trying to get royalties about any other major competitor racing in Chicago
At the end of the day, if the racing was close, battles up and down the field, unpredictable winners, 3 or 4 teams in contention for titles along with 3 or 4 drivers battling it out all season long, no one would care what the cars looked like, sounded like or how big, small, heavy or light there were
...by needing a near superhuman effort to win. Then I'm with you. This isn't supposed to be easy. If what you say happens the wrong way, then qualifying still is the actual race.
The engine manufacters won't like this one bit , imagine spending all that money on a 2026 engine for it to be gone by 2030 ?
They would have spent the same money continuing to develop the older engine anyway
It would save the teams money in the long run if they got rid of the hybrid drivetrains for a simple, light V8 or V-10. The cars would be a lot smaller and hundreds of pounds lighter, there would be better racing, and more competition.
My issue with it being too short from 2026 to 2030 is that the engine rules haven’t changed a huge amount, it’s the Hybrid unit that’s changing mostly. The 26ICEs will be a bit louder and Rev a bit higher, I think to the 15,000RPM as well as not having MGU-H which also Dulls the noise. The big changes are just hybrid if I’m not mistaken, so it’s less of a huge change than normal.
I agree. I can’t see a whole new engine spec 4 years after the all new engine regulations come in. The investment in making all new power units is massive and the teams just won’t wear only getting a 4 year use of such an investment.
The fuel flow is going to be going down, the revs aren't going to up, they're going to stay about the same.
@@alexisborden3191 max revs are being increased and the MGU-H is being removed. They won’t sound like V8s ie anything but they’ll rev higher and be louder.
@@snowtrooper8817 They can increase the max revs all they like, they aren't going to make any more power above 10'500 rpm.
The big change for the combustion engines is that they use different fuel, which affects it a lot
This seriously raises a question; Why go through all the effort of making a new engine formula only to scrap it shortly afterwards?
f1 has actualy run some numbers and seen that the 2026 engines are going to be 400bhp so will be out dragged by the safety car.
This is why I'm not really convinced these engines are in any stage beyond writing stuff on a whiteboard.
@@somethingfunny6867 This is not true in the slightest, you are literally just making shit up.
@@alexisborden3191 its easy to calculate if you know how. 110kg is going to 70kg. current f1 engines run about 800bhp remove 36% (40/110)of the power and ur at 510bhp. then the switch to bio fuel you get a lower energy dencity. (petrol for ethanol) you go from 46MJ/KG to 30MJ/KG. its already 10% ethanol accepted to be 43MJ/KG so thats another 25% loss. so the ICE component of it is going to be around 390bhp.
onto the electric side. the massive 120kw motor that takes 2 laps to charge the battery. they are doing nothing for actual energy being recoverd simply changing from 120kw to 350kw its all well and good until you understand 120kw for 20 seconds is the same as 350kw for 6.8 seconds.
engineering explained gets 560bhp for the ICE but assumes E20 rather than E100. if you want to understand the racing it will be 800bhp for the first 2 seconds out of a corner then 4-500 after that. its going to look silly
@@alexisborden3191 Engineering Explained says about 550 hp, which sounds plausible and still a huge decrease from current 900 hp
Watch barrichello's onboard pole lap at monza 2004 or raikkonens pole lap at monaco 2005. The noise and awesomeness of that footage is the reason i am an f1 fan today. The cars need to encapsulate the senses
I'd like to see V10s with a hybrid component. Teams and manufacturers should have some freedom with developing battery technology because energy storage is a real world problem that needs solving.
They gotta have Turns 8 and 9 through a shopping mall. . . and the back straight over an open bridge. Everyone in black 'n' white livery, wearin' Ray Bans, 'n' smokin' Luckys. . . Murph & the Magictones singin' the anthem.
Bring on Chicago!
I see you are a man of culture and I approve your vision.
Four fried chickens and a Coke ;)
It wasn’t just the sound that made the old cars special, it’s the way they stormed around the circuit like 20 oversteery hornets. The way the drivers pushed them from start to finish on low-grip, bulletproof tires & low fuel was absolutely incredible.
As long as I can see that the drivers aren’t holding back to save fuel/tyres & are driving flat-out lap after lap, then that’s the most important thing.
I’d much rather watch two small, lightweight, twitchy V10 cars fight for 10th place than 5 V6 cars fight for the lead. They look completely lifeless cause of how much grip they have & how silent they are.
100% alonso demo in his Renault a few years ago backs your point up perfectly.
It just looked a dam sight more exciting
@@lphoulihan Thank you. Someone that actually gets what this sport should be all about.
I want 2030 to be V8s at LEAST. V8s with some of the hybrid tech but make them rev to 18k again with greater fuel flow limit. I grew up with the V8s back in 07/08 and those designed cars were the most beautiful and the racing was decent and I loved refuelling era due to more strategy and drivers could push more. I think f1 needs that formula more. The current tryes and cars are far too sensitive to either tyre temps or closeness to cars
Personally I would like to see a return to shorter, narrower, screaming engine powered cars that weigh less. Even fewer mandated parts would be nice. Give the teams dimensions for the cars and a displacement capacity and let them show up with what they can create. You can even keep the budget caps in place for some sort of parity between teams.
A person who sees clearly...how rare.
Honestly I wish that there would simply be a displacement limit and from there it's no holds bar, rather than keeping everyone to the same number of cylinders, the same amount of turbos, and so forth. IMSA and WEC to a tremendous job with BOP to create as level a playing field as possible (WEC is still working out the kinks on theirs), and there is so much variety in there. The difference is that there are multiple displacements across the spectrum. It would be interesting to see the current regulations bumped up to say 2.0L and allow as much as 10 cylinders or as few as 4 with whatever aspiration that the manufacture wishes in order to build their technology. You can in essence have 6 or 7 ways to solve a given problem, with varying positives and negatives. And with the combination of the cost cap and only being permitted x-amount of engines per year, it could enable more pressure on the development.
Nah, no displacement limits, just a size limit on the car that puts a soft cap on how big an engine will fit in it.
If you can make a twelve wheel, six engines car work, go for it.
No inline engines please, please…..just please. My idea is 1.5 litres v configuration with either a bigger single turbo or 2 smaller turbo….just no inline engines plzzzz
@@arthurleeki Just say "make the cars like they were when I was 12" its even easier to say than that was.
They would all gravitate towards a single configuration anyways, that's what happened in the 3.0L regulations, they were not ever stipulated to be V10s, they just all realized that a V10 was the best layout for that displacement level. I fully believe the same result would happen.
@@arthurleeki Inline-4 or even inline-6 would still sound leagues better than V6
You are spot on!!
Speaking of enticing auto manufacturers...then there is GM- Andretti.
I remember being 8 years old at Adelaide seeing the cars flash past me then feeling this warm residue on my face that reaked of kerosene, 3 seconds of ears ringing until doing it all over again meanwhile the crowd smelt of beer and cigarettes
I miss that
As a side....Murray Walker could make crap races pretty decent, better commentators today would improve the show a lot!!
This is a great point. Liberty should leave the on-track alone for a few years and concentrate on improving the quality of the broadcast. It's just been Crofty loudly describing what we can already see on the screen and the director missing key moments up to and including overtakes for the lead of the race. What about some new camera angles or better sound. What about a strategist on the broadcast team that can bring more drama to the strategic moments that can make or break a race. So much room for improvement.
@@fallenshallrise Croft is away this weekend and the replacement is a lot less annoying. Much better.
I'd replace Croft and Brundle, they've had their time now.
@@fallenshallriseand what worse about crofty is sometimes he is actually spreading misinformation besed on what he knows despite what actually happened is described on the screen and contradict to what crofty said
How utterly typical for Liberty. Force a redevelopment of the most complicated engines in motorsport, then say 'oh we'll only use them for 4 years' before they've even been raced. 🙈
You have no understanding of what Liberty is barely in control of.
Liberty are the COMMERCIAL RIGHTS HOLDER. They handle event organising and TV Rights. The technical regulations are governed by the FIA
Why else do you think Bernie was laughed out the room when he proposed a sprinkler system
They should run Cart style V8s imo. Doesnt get much better than 850+ hp V8s revving to 14,000 and also running on methanol. No one ever complained about the way they sounded, and running on methanol is pretty good for the environment. You can grow the stuff. Plus, those engines would happily take more boost so they could do F1 power pretty easily
I mean when those let go it was absolutely spectacular. See the 2000 Fontana round for many many many examples. Including Shinji Nakano having an afterburner, Blundell trying to make every mosquito in SoCal leave and JPM's engine giving up in amazingly spectacular fashion. And then go back to 97 with the Toyota of Juan Fangio II having a barbecue on the pace laps at Fontana
@@jacekatalakis8316 Paul Tracy's plenum blew off.
Odd engines but really cool. Single Turbo, non-intercooled.
@@palm92 And that led to Parker recounting when he did the same thing at Indy, both plenum tried to reach into low earth orbit
V10 20k rpm engine at the back and an eletric motor on the front axel, up efficiency, faster accel and more control on corners.
Hybridization isn't the reason for lack of noise. It's turbocharging. The naturally-aspirated V8 hybrids of 2009-2013 sounded fine, and this is the formula they should return to. If they really care about reducing their carbon footprint, F1 management should schedule races based on geographic location (i.e. starting in the Western hemisphere and working East or vice versa) to minimize pollution from travel.
Winter in Chicago baby.... For the race
Well done, you beat the bots.
They could bring back those stupid snowplow front wings!
@@johnhutto71which era do you mean?
@@rolux4853Late 2000's early 2010's cars with the high nose big from wing narrow rear wings. They truly were the most awkward looking cars.
@@johnhutto71 Ah you mean the post 2008 cars after they forbid all the extensive aero.
Those cars truly looked like three steps back after having all those sophisticated aero solutions the years before
id rather have the 1.6 turbos in smaller 2005/2006 sized cars than v10s in the huge boats we have now. I've been to races when they had the 2.4 V8s and to the last 2 british grand prixs and i have to say its nice to go home without the absolute raging headaches i got "back in the day" and not having to wear ear defenders. Even though i prefer the sound and presence of the v8s and v10s, i think smaller more agile cars is possibly the "fix" we need.
Smaller cars need smaller fuel tanks. Apparently teams dont want to go back to refuelling, costs issues is their reasoning.
Thank you for being the one reasonable guy here
So I think we can use 1.5l I4 engines instead of V6 in car that somewhat between the size of 2006 and 2009 cars and ditching the whole hybrid system altogether
you cant do that though because its 100kg heavier. it needs more crash structure and more space to absorb the crash.
@@somethingfunny6867 the hybrid system is a big part of the cars' weight gain. Modern power units weigh 150kg at a minimum, whereas the 3.0l V10s were under 100kg by the end of their runs. The 2.4l V8s could have been even lighter were it not for the development freeze and the addition of a battery. Even with a bigger fuel tank, you are clawing back weight just by throwing out the battery. And what about the tyres? 18" rims are just useless weight compared to the older, smaller wheels. It's not unreasonable to think that a suitably safe, exciting car could be made on a much smaller foot print than the current cars.
No hybrid = lighter cars.
Let's see those babies dance around Monaco again.
That would require going back to the 80s because the 2000s v10s and v8 also sucked at Monaco, too fast and too small of breaking zones.
Weight yes, but then they'd still be too big to pass eachother without shrinking them too
hybrid is good for Monaco
@@nitelast that'll happen regardless, I just want to see the direction change
@@rexthewolf3149 Nelson Piquet described driving in Monaco as "riding a bicycle in your living room" and he raced there in the 80s. There's a video of a Monaco Grand Prix from the 1970s with Hunt and Lauda where the commentator talks about how much more difficult racing has gotten in Monaco due to the cars getting bigger in the 70s. Monaco has always been a terrible circuit to race on. And no, just because we had two exciting Monaco races in 1984 and 1996 doesn't mean that the circuit isn't entirely bad. And the Formula E races also don't count because it's a spec series so there's naturally going to be more exciting races anyway like in other spec series like F2 and F3.
I think there should be an open engine formula. Let the manufacturers showcase their own technology, but keeps the current engine formula relevant and most likely the dominant force for the first few years of the new regs. My only stipulation would be a set fuel limit using a single supplier. Fuel limit, not flow limit. To stop it becoming a "best engine" formula there could be a BOP system involving electrical discharge and rev limits.
As for aero, the regs in the mid-90s allowed cars to follow really close.
You're supporting to Zak's view. It's quite sensible to hear bro
@@Lockdown9697TRF am I? I haven't actually read/heard his opinion on future engine regs
No BoP please
It was not the regs in the mid 90s. It was just that we knew jack about flow conditioning and other stuff compared to now
The lack of noise isn't about the lack of cylinders, it's because the mg uh is trapping all the stuff that makes the noise. Lose the mg uh and they'll sound great again.
That’s exactly what’s leaving in 2026
its not just the MHU-H its the fuel flow restriction. if the 100kg/h limmit was removed cars would be back to 15krpm rather than the current 12k and the turbos would be at even higher pressures. getting back up to 200kg/h will double the energy coming out of the exhaust.
@@somethingfunny6867 true true. For me it seems crazy to have a max fuel weight as well as a fuel flow limit. the drive for economy isn't particularly conducive to good racing.
i don't know that it is the best, but i like the WEC and IMSA approach to engines, they give guidelines on power output but let the manufactures design their own engines. some use v6, some v8, and back a number of years ago audi even went diesel. you still can get a dominant car, and that is why they try to have BOP, and some argue that isn't a good system but at least they try. and the talk of boring races because of red bull dominating, how quick we forget we had 7 years of mercedes dominating before that. so you are at 10 years or so of having a single manufacture winning basically every week. and before that you had years of ferrari doing the same thing. for F1 to really allow manufactures to get a good return on investments they should let them design their own engines with tech that they think they can translate back to road cars.
Yank here. We don't need a fourth race. We didn't need a third race. If we were going to have two, the second should have been rotated through several tracks.
Several tracks being indy. Considering only texas and indy are fia grade 1 permenant circuits, and circuit owners are alresdy having to spend too much money to host f1 without having to make changes to upgrade to grade 1 status
Outside of F1 there's no such thing as a 1.6L V6. Any road engine less than 2L will be a 4cyl.
Mitsubishi did have a Japanese market 1.6L V6, Mazda had a 1.8L one (the latter I've driven in a MX-3 - actually a very good engine.)
But yes, they are quite rare. Small V6s are nice though, my Lexus has a 2.5L one that is nice and smooth, it makes the same power as the Flat 4 in my Toyota 86 but sounds nicer.
Just for that last argument, DO IT 😂
The problem is When Formula One became a worldwide commercial phenomenon for most people was in the 90s. You had three ingredients. Screaming cars, sexy cars, and seven world champions over a decade. Yeah, some of the races were boring and parade like. But at the moment it feels like we are in a reality TV show calling itself a race. it would be the equivalent of Coca-Cola changing their mixture to be clear instead of Black and they’re branding to orange instead of red, and it didn’t fizz anymore. Yes people don’t like change, but they also stay around for the things they like, and otherwise they don’t stay around. So the sport needs to decide if it is only interested in the Netflix drive to survive fans or does it actually want to be considered a elite pinnacle car competition?
YES...Racetracks, NO MORE STREET RACES!!!
Screw a fourth US race, give us a second Canadian race! Also for Context I am from Michigan and I would sooner go to a Canadian Race than any of the tree that currently exists.
F1 at Mosport would be epic
I'd recon just about any major city in Canada is closer for you then either Austin, Miami or Vegas
@@OnionChoppingNinja For the most part aside from the West Coast cities like Vancouver or Calgary. My list would be Canada, Australia, Belgium, and Italy on a based on History, likelyhood of a good race, and interesting location. Lord knows none of the American races compare in the slightest to the ones I listed. Japan would be on the list but I would rather watch Super GT at Suzuka for the full Japanese Experience.
Tbh I'd say it would be better to scrap a race or two in North America and instead, have one more race in South America. Argentina comes to mind.
I remember watching Greg Moore race in Vancouver and feeling really proud. But the track was dreadful and it’s 80% certain to rain.
I assume the OP was referring to the cost difference of Montreal vs any US race. I wouldn’t assume that to happen elsewhere.
Oh god I hope this is true. Started following F1 in 94 and stopped when the v6 vacuum cleaner engines came in. The screaming V8s 10s and 12s added so much emotion and excitement to race weekends.
And here I was hoping for new engines with inline-4 hybrids with range extenders
The fuck is a range extender?
You boring man😂😂😂😂
@@alexisborden3191 an ICE that runs constantly to give the electric motor more charge, OP's phrasing would make it sound like he wants the car to have 2 engines
Insane take
@@xnotasweatx not less insane than going back to screaming V10s
"Formula" meant there was an actual algebraic formula for the cars. For instance, you could chose big engine but the car had to be heavier, or you could chose light car with small engine. Bring back the actual formula, the race series actual roots
If f1 goes to v8 you are going right toward andretti being competitive almost instantly. The American v8 is unmatched
They already have Formula E, so just keep the current power units as is, add active suspension, lose the street circuits except Monaco, have ten three car teams to race for twenty-six slots, quit having such an obsession about the United States, eliminate Herman Tilke dromes, have the ten current F1 teams have 3 car teams going for twenty-six slots for both F2 and F3 so that everything is under one umbrella. Alas, it is a dream that will never even be considered. One more thing, since the FIA wants the teams to diversify, wouldn't it be great to see a Ferrari Indy Car team, along with the other nine teams, it not only would get some publicity, but it would get Indy Car out of the outhouse and into the penthouse. Seeing someone like Lewis Hamilton racing the Indy 500 or the Daytona 500 would be wild. Again, its just a dream sad to say.
formula e is slower around Monaco than 70's f1 cars.
I can remember people on the internet in the 2000s complaining about the way the cars sounded, saying that the engine note was too high pitched, and that the cars sounded better in the 90s. People always complain about things on the internet. In 10 years people will be nostalgic over the current cars, even if they do sound like hoovers
I was totally with you played the "fewer street circuts" card. Do it!!
They absolutely MUST ban DRS.
I came to watch racing, not leapfrog.
A couple of years ago I found a channel that has been uploading "classic" seasons(?) I ate up from '01 to currently '05 and it has been crack for my nostalgia. Yes, the sound does the job, but I think I'm more drawn to the fact that the races weren't about having to manage degrading tyres/energy/drs. The only good thing F1 has done in the last decade its reliability. Imagine '03 and '04 if Williams and McLaren would'n blown up every other race! Love your stuff! Cheers from Argentina!
I remember driving through Toronto during the Toronto Honda Indy race. Well, okay, free practice. I was on the highway above Lakeshore. You're wrong about the sound of IndyCar these days. It's still loud, and it's still shrill and high pitched. Not a 2004 F1 car but yeah...
How about a 'no holds barred', build any engine & gearbox combo, normally aspirated, turbocharged, hybrid, a bit of all, something new. But, you are only allowed £100 million to develop it and £20 million a year to upgrade etc.
You could dictate what fuel is to be run, and how much, to promote sustainability and then let the engineers get on with it.
V4's, V12's, V2 charging an electric engine, let's see what would happen.
Another great video, thanks Aiden.
ABOUT FREAKING TIME!
RETURN TO THE INDIANAPOLIS MOTOR SPEEDWAY!
I don't really have an opinion on these 2030 regs, but what I find weird is F1 always looking forward to the next set of regulations. The next set will always be the greatest thing ever, except that a year before the regulations are introduced, the next thing is already mentioned and that will fix things x, y, and z. In 2021, we already had discussions about 2026, and now we're already discussing 2030 without even knowing what the 2026 stuff will actually be.
I guess it's their way to try and grab people's attention. "Look, new regulations, F1 will be totally different now, please watch" and all that.
Great video yet again Aidan!
Car size & weight is a much bigger deal than the engine sound imo.
And we can cry about the RB/Merc dominance all day but I'd absolutely hate seing something like BoP rules being introduced
9:38 I’ve been saying that this for years, people have always called F1 boring. Especially the past 30 years or so.
"It was wheel to wheel back then! It was much better racing!"
Only two cars on lead lap and winner was 50s up the road. The engines and Murray made it appear more exciting than it was.
@@AidanMillward You're forgetting the engine failures - glorious plumes of white smoke coming out the back of the car or the occasional fire as well. Reasons why you'd get the dominance as well and the huge time gaps as well as everything else.
@@heliumtrophy didn’t forget anything tbh.
I still think v8s or v10s would be a welcome change because the quality of the racing is good now they just sound dull
@@heliumtrophy the V8 era saw more than 20 drivers reach the chequered flag on multiple occasions.
The V10 era had more blowups, but engines only had to do a maximum of 305km before overhaul/replacement. If you brought them back and said "you can use 4 of these per season" then you wouldn't have anywhere near as many failures.
I will compare this weekend in Imola . current breed versus 1993 sample.
Overhauling the chassis regs every four or five years makes a degree of sense, but big drivetrain changes should only happen every two or three sets of chassis regs for cost reasons. If it's too expensive and manufacturers leave we have less of a show.
I went to Abu Dhabi 2013 towards the end of the V8 era and needed ear defenders, which the PA system seemed to have been tuned for. My next race was Belgium 2015 sitting in a grandstand on the exit of La Source, and the sound was good there, but that's not where the action happens and the TV coverage wants to follow the action.
I would argue that removing the MGU-H will allow the cars to be narrower as they were narrower in 2014 than now.
Which would you take you can only have one smaller cars or v10 again
good question but it kinda has to be both. Current cars are the length of a full size SUV, no joke. They've built aero dependent land speed cars and then try to straighten out every corner on every track and complain when other cars are on the track. For half of the car people fans, the sound gives us an emotional reaction and increases the excitement. Without it, less exciting
The only way F1 could return to NA engines is to clamp the design of the ICE and open the regulations for battery design and hybrid deployment. IMO if we're going fully electric, the focus should be on energy storage. Currently they're using a capacitor/battery design that isn't applicable in the majority of road cars. that needs to change too. Whats wrong with having the best of both worlds?
As a Chicago resident, a Formula 1 fan, IndyCar fan, and NASCAR fan. I can assure you, we did not want the NASCAR event. The city lost money on it. We do not want a Formula 1 Grand Prix. There is a fabulous FIA Grade 1 purpose built circuit in Indianapolis Formula 1 can go back to.
If the cars get smaller I'm all in. Otherwise I rather have a 4 cylinder turbo engine in a tiny car than a big V8 in a big car - unpopular opinion yes but might lead to better races.
Talking about "the car has to get around the corner without crashing" (in the context of a hopefully-smaller, hopefully-lighter car) made me think of another problem that prevents us from having the eye-watering change of direction we're really looking for: Pirellis WILL NOT hold up to the kind of abuse that a mid-2000s Michelin or Bridgestone could. They're purposely built to die in agony under those conditions. Interestingly enough, as long as people have been crying about the hybrids, I've been crying about the Pirellis. There are actual reasons to whine about F1, yet the people at the top are just interested in aesthetics... AGAIN.
I personally like F1 and motorsport for the cars. I definitely might be in the minority here, but I will always prefer watching a good sounding, good looking, light and nimble car go around a track than worse sounding, heavier, worse looking car. Even if that is detrimental to the racing, I will always enjoy watching a race more if I like the cars. Personally, I will always love the cars more than the racing
1.5L V10 turbo-hybrid with MGU-H and MGU-K, with a fuel flow limit that allows 20K rpm with power peaking at around 19K rpm. That's what I think should happen. The MGU-H is amazing and shouldn't go away.
...why not V10? God dammit, it's like they WANT to piss me off.
victim
Hot take but I think the v8 sounds better than the v10
To be fair, hearing the 90's F1 cars on demo runs during race weekends is a fantastic experience.
@neblolthecarnerd both have their competing good points. The V10 scream vs the V8 growl. Both are fantastic.
I will raise you with the V12's...
You could feel your internal organs vibrate...
awesome video, can't see it happeneing but you never know
You have done a good job! :) Thank you!
11:16 or whatever cylinder configuration you wanted, I rememeber a try off a w12 that didnt produce power at all
What I don't understand is. If manufacturers and governments don't know what the fuck they want right now, why doesn't F1 tie up the engine regulations to road car laws and let them figure it out on track? Instead they take a shot in the dark and hope its the more attractive choice, which makes little sense to me.
If the engine regulations were literally just that the engine has to be road legal in countries F1 races in, it would immediately make the series more of a technology testing ground that it currently is. For how much F1 loves touting their innovations make it to the road, it feels stupid to force manufacturers into squeezing incremental improvements in a known platform, when instead you could give manufacturers a testing ground to abuse the shit out of the road car laws they deal with every day. What better environment to make innovations applicable to road cars than that?
On top of that it would make F1 naturally evolve with the times with radical cars coming in to shake up the order, just like that turbo Renault back in the day. Imagine a petrol-electric drive car turning up. Or even a hydrogen car.
Here is my take on it, the FIA could have the perfect set up for manufacturers, Formula E for those that want to do electric, WEC for hybrids and F1 just pure combustion engines.
Hydrogen fueled V8s and V10s. DO IT
V12s too if they want. DO IT
Yeah I don't get this whole cost cap thing, when they keep changing things, makes no sense whatsoever.
Another great video and wonderful points, but I think there is something untrue about the narrative that people only want the old engines back for noise and nostalgia. A bigger part is that a sport is most entertaining when it's relatable. I don't mean like "that's the same as my car on the road", but more "people try to race car fastest". No one loves DRS, but at least it's a clear physical thing. But no one gets excited about cars harvesting and releasing extra energy, because it's all hidden computer tech. We don't want a tech demo where we have to wait for the computer readout later, when surely the simple racing of cars is better, so we can just enjoy the sport viscerally. As brought to us by our eyes, not as brought to us be AWS.
So I'd rather whatever the best mix of simple/fast/competitive is, so the driving can speak, and one engine is surely better than a power unit of many parts.
Must say though, again, beautifully researched video and basically 99% agree on everything 😅
They should stop overregulating things like engine format, why not only engine size, or even better, amount of fuel for the race , and the rest open
Your last line: "DO IT! "
YES! If bringing back loud engines means less street circuits I'm all for it. Tired of those snoozefests.
I enjoyed your informative videos
But sadly some other problems may come to the surface as a lot of race tracks around the world have sound/noice limits because of people/things living close to the race track and are complaning about everything 🙁.
I am afraid that louder cars could only race in the middle-east etc.
I'd love to see V10s again but barring that in terms of tonal quality something like a turbo VR5 might be the next best thing. An interesting rule for road relevance might be to give engine builders a choice between MGU-H or variable valve timing (which I believe is currently not allowed), but not both.
This regulation could also be a small step towards an even newer future redesign, they could consider many of the following changes: v angle (60, 72, 90), engine layout (i4, i5, i6, ,vr6, v6, v8, v10, v12, w12), forced induction (na, turbo, twin turbo, compound turbo, supercharging, twin charging), valve control & number (vvt, vvl, camless, 4+), engine & piston material (cgi, other new/exotic alloy, steel, forged, cast), compression ratio (any), fuel injector (number, number of holes), spark plug (number or none at all, material), transmisson (cvt, dct). I think there's actually many design changes that could be provided towards the manufacturer to design the engines that they would like, and also engine design evolve constantly (1900s i4 were quite rightly different than 2020s i4).
25+ year fan here. You are being a bit harsh on fans here. The hybrids are too heavy and big and hence the cars are way too cumbersome. Add to that they sound awful. Imagine if the modern tech was channeled in a different dieection which prioritised lightness, minimal driver aids and compact designs rather than all out efficiency on paper. F1 has def gone in a direction to please the manufacturers on the engineering so you are prob correct in your assessment here. Personally i would mandate min weight 500kg, synthetic fuels and 3l n/a run what you like :-)
While I would rather have v10's, I would certainly take V8's over these shitty V6's.
I watched the "good old days". Tyres screaming is way better to hear than engines screaming. Remember the first season of the hybrids when they were really quiet? Any car getting remotely sideways You could hear. I think FOM tv filters that out a lot these days, which is a shame. It would add to the viewing experience.
In regards to the lack of on track action with F1 I have two views:
1. Not every race has to be the greatest thing ever. The reason the best races are remembered and long time fans have their favourites is because they stand out. This applies to ALL racing series' and championships.
2. Another thing that applies to all championships and series' is a generalised rule that up to a point is true. More cars on track = more fun. You let teams like andretti show up as the 21st and 22nd cars on the grid you are simply increasing the probability of on track action happening. So on that front the teams need to wind their necks in and let other people come and play in their special little championship.
2:32 "this is brilliant, but I like this"
- Jeremy Clarkson
I went to the F1 Expo here in Toronto and was amazed how small the Mercedes V6 is. It is just surrounded by stupid stuff like a battery KERS and MGUK. A V8 or V10 would take up less space and be a lot lighter. And F1 is all about weight. NASCAR is running a V8 and the cars would be joke if they where smaller. Race cars are all about the noise. And the F1 Highbrid sounds awful on TV. I have never heard a live one and i hear they sound better at the track. With a simple combustion engine the world will be simpler. This may help teams in the mid and back of the pack. But at the end of the day it is technology that has little use in the road car market.
Bring back *V12s* !
Honestly, I was never disappointed by the sounds of the hybrid era cars. It's the elitism of not letting Andretti in and blocking the view of the track from residents' view in vegas, the cost cap hypocrisy of changing the regulations on a whim and adding too many races, and, the pay wall that meant I haven't seen a race live on tv in possibly a decade when I used to watch religiously in the terrestrial tv coverage days, that made me eventually think "what's the point?!" So, this year, I deliberately unsubscribed from any f1 specific channels on RUclips and ignored what is going on in f1 this year. I don't know how many races there have been, where they've been or who's won what. I know Monaco is on around this time because it's always in May after the cannes film festival. But my point is I don't care about the future of f1 anymore. WEC and IMSA are thriving right now and that's where I'm getting my motorsport fix from these days.
The biggest thing (other than turbos) holding back the noise is the fuel-flow limit - it means that revving the engines out doesn't bring any benefit. So, if we get to fully sustainable fuels, then just REMOVE THE FUEL FLOW LIMIT - more revs, more noise, sorted. No, it's not a return to glorious NA V10s, but it would be more likely than ditching an entire advanced engine formula after only 4 years.
Give me back the V12 Monsters !!!!!!!!
I want 4 figure Hp figures!!!!!
I want the Engine noise to be so loud that they rattle my fillings
A grid full of DFV's would do nicely. To use a quote from Clarkson, they make a dirty dirty noise.
@@JohnSmithShields He was so right..
The v12s never hit 1k
Make the hybrid system work more like a regular street car. Have it charge the battery (of fixed capacity) all the time until it's "full". Then when they get on the throttle have the electric power add on at a rate set by the team and not adjustable during the race. No charging up and using it when needed to prevent an overtake - the push to pass type thing. Wouldn't hurt to re-think the DRS stuff too.
I remember the latest V8 F1 era which ended by Renault lobbying their V6 turbo engine formula and they, irinically, failing to achieve any great results with it. Everyone screamed "bring back 80s turbo power!" but it turned out to be more boring than looking at V8s racing. So, I totally agree with FOM: it's nice to add good sound. And, as for me, the principle of F1 regulations should be changed so it will have less technical restrictions, but more financial (if possible)
They should star first with the cars dimensions. They are way to big for most tracks, and heavy. Specially street circuits. First, smaller cars, then get back refueling with a smaller fuel tank. They can keep the mgu but we would love to have at least a v8 sound back ( pls bring v10s back ). After that they can decide what to to do next. I know that the aero regs right now should benefit racing and also in 2026, but we are not getting that many great news about it so far. I hope they fix the issues.
I would love to have a mix of 2002-2005 cars ( v10 engines, less weight, refueling) with todays aeroregulations, modern and more efficient engines.
City races means negotiating sound levels with locals. If F1 wants to keep those, quiet engines prevail. No one longs for ear pain. But they do want the cars to sound ‘extra’. So just do that. Reasonably.
4:34 My spooder sense is telling that image is, in fact, NOT Derek Warwick at the 1989 Belgian GP.
Mechanics should be allowed onto the podium
V10!!!!! Here WE COME!!!!!
Awesome idea to potentially open up the engine regulations. If they do open up, we would definitely be interested in making F1 engines!
The distinctive engine sound was a big part of the F1 experience and it was a given. No matter what happened in the race there was something impressive to talk about. Nowadays that isn't the case anymore and there is no valid reason for it. F1 engines weren't that much road relevant anyways so dropping the MGU-H and the turbo for more cylinders won't matter to the industry. As for batteries being the future, it's not going to be the case unless some revolutionary discovery happens in the field which is quite unlikely. Consumers and especially companies started to realize this and that's why these kind of talks started.
I've been saying since Liberty Media took over that they needed to change up how things are shown in a F1 race. It needs to have a certain emphasis on the spectacle that is the cars. They should have some more camera angles that show the incredible cornering speed. Have the engine noise return, and be something people can't hear anywhere else. Of course the racing should be the priority, but if you know anything about F1 history, it's often about domination. Or at least one, maybe 2 teams getting things rigtht, and then the rest fighting for scraps.
5:51 personally I dont see sn issue with power unit. To me it feels like an extension of automotive terminology alreafy in use. Power unit + drivetrain = powertrain. But I know you spent yesrs watching clarkson yell about speed and power, so I can understand why it would feel cringe