You're absolutely right. I'm a die-hard Zep fan since I discovered them at age 13 in the mid 70s...but they should have given credit where credit was due.
It helps to keep in mind that these negative comments come from those projecting their own unhappiness onto everything and everyone else. If a person puts a nasty comment, in every single case, they are really saying 'I am inadequate'. Or to put it more fully 'I am trying to upset you because I am inadequate'. It helps to stand back and observe this behaviour from the perspective of an outsider, because the spectator sees more of the game, and it becomes very clear that the nastiness is merely a reflection of them, and not you.
TJR you crack me up. I love when you said that some people don't pay attention. A lot of people are not trying to pay attention. Some people will see your thumbnail in the title of your video they will leave a comment without even watching the video sometimes. I saw this a few weeks ago a guy posted a video was 30 minutes long a person left a comment literally right after the video was posted telling him he was wrong so there's absolutely no way they actually watch the video.
I see that a lot. Someone will leave a comment "informing" the person in the video of something that they plainly covered in said video. Also...very few people read comments. Often, that's why there are 75 comments all saying the same thing. People like to talk and not listen.
Bravo TJR, well stated and succinctly argued. I think these Zeppelin apologists are STILL full of crap--and we've heard it from members of the rock "journalism" class, all the way up to industry folk like Ahmet Ertegun, who I've heard make comments to the same effect as many of those you highlighted. Only Page can answer as to why he did not properly acknowledge his sources. Growing up in the 70s, I experienced this music without the knowledge of what came before it, and even to this end find myself stunned when I realize where this material came from. I only recently listened to Jake Holmes' Dazed and Confused, and don't know how Page could give himself a songwriting credit on their debut album for that title. I think Zeppelin is very much a "modern" artist in the sense that they did what essentially all great modern art does--they 'made it new'. The apologists who site listening to Zep's version and listening to the 'original' version and how drastically different they are, do not get the point. The idea of 'making it new' isn't some rock music thing, but, to my knowledge, goes back to early 20th century literary arts, poet Ezra Pound, in particularly. Pound popularized the aesthetic that modern writing, really all modern art, is about 'making it new'--in other words, you are not going to say or create anything that hasn't been done before, but you need to make it new. There are countless examples in all art forms where this is the case. As for music, and for those who think Zeppelin deserves a pass for the stunning re-imagining they did of other people's work, there are COUNTLESS examples of the same thing happening in other music genres, particularly jazz. Two quick examples come to mind: take a listen to John Coltrane's My Favorite Things, or Out of This World--neither of which would EVER be confused with the original pop tunes of Rodgers-Hammerstein and Johnny Mercer, respectively....but both composers were properly credited when Trane recorded and released his landmark versions of them. That being said, when I was a kid, I never understood the "Trad arrangement by....." on songwriting credits, and I still don't. I mean, I recall my original vinyl copy of Zep I crediting "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" as 'Traditional arrangement Jimmy Page'...which means what? That the version he plays is his own arrangement, but the song is actually someone else's? Thus he'd receive songwriting royalties for it?? The same thing was the case with Love in Vain by the Stones...on Get Yer Ya Ya's Out, it is credited to "Traditional arrangement Jagger/Richards", but I don't recall if the version on Let It Bleed was properly credited to Robert Johnson. The Stones, as we know, were hardly reluctant to credit their blues sources, though. I don't know if the issue of 'public domain' factored into any of this as well...that being said, if any of these tunes were simply in the public domain, and not subject to copyright issues. Either way, didn't another English folk dude have some issue with Page??? Davey Graham?? Was he the guy that did White Summer??
The credit of "Traditional" refers to a song wherein the name of the original songwriter is no longer known (and is in the public domain by default). They are often referred to more commonly as a traditional folk song, or a traditional country western song etc. These are songs that got passed down from generation to generation long before there was a way to copyright the ownership of song and the name of the original author(s) has been lost to time.
Sometimes adoration puts the blinkers to reality on. I was shocked, and to be honest a bit disappointed and didn't want to believe it when I first heard that LZ music was not all their own. But as a aged I learned that all our heros have flaws and I am content with recognizing the craft and brilliance of Page and Co, while also understanding they, at times, failed to pay due respects.
Plant nicked far more lyrics than Page lifted guitar parts BUT both were guilty of the practice. Listening to 'You Need Love' decades after 'Whole Lotta Love' I almost doubled over laughing. I was buying albums long before Led Zeppelin debuted after changing their New Yardbirds moniker---I never heard the Small Faces' 'You Need Love' on American radio however it must've been blatantly familiar to British listeners as it had only been released three years earlier. The way Richard Cole told the story in his 'Stairway to Heaven' book was that Plant had recorded a great vocal and the musicians created parts around it to complement his caterwauling; on 'Whole Lotta Love' Plant always sounded (to me) like some kid in a studio hollering a bunch of phrases through echo and delay units just for grins. I can just imagine Peter Grant listening to the finished product approvingly and saying "let the Faces sue us for thousands, we'll make millions," but I wasn't there to overhear anything, just elaborating on Cole's observation. There's no excuse for 'Dazed & Confused' and 'Black Mountainside' although both soothed my ears vastly more than Jake Holmes or Bert Jansch (whom Page greatly admired). As far as song titles go THOSE cannot be copyrighted the way I understand it, i.e. between 1969 and 1973 Grand Funk, Zep and the Stones all recorded songs called Heartbreaker. By early 1972 all the kids were talking about Spirit's 'Taurus' in the same breath as 'Stairway To Heaven.' At the same time Randy California, the author, knew it too but never raised hell about it, only his heirs seeking a vulgar payday for themselves took it to court and were legally slapped down. I hope it cost them in lawyer fees, that was petty. 'Nobody's Fault But Mine' and 'The Lemon Song' are two of my all-time favorite Zep tunes. The first time I saw Zep in concert in August 1969 they'd already recorded Lemon but Plant introduced it as 'Killing Floor.' Again the hulking thug Peter Grant MIGHT have intervened and said "retitle it and take credit for it, we'll still make money on it if it goes to court." I repeat I didn't overhear a word of what went on behind the scenes, I'm merely speculating. Everything the Zeppelin borrowed and committed to vinyl was an improvement on the original because none of the originals had John Bonham playing the drums on the track. In the case of the drum-free 'Black Waterside' Bert Jansch was singing as well as playing the guitar at the same time.
@@bossfan49 That's harsh, but 44 years after LZ broke up a younger generation who never saw them live became fanatical. RUclips has 'You Need Love' by the Small Faces; it's that easy to listen to, and free. Anyone whose never heard it before will be amused---or astounded, angry, outraged, in denial, etc. For the same reaction listen to 'Ooh! My Head' by Richie Valens which sounds exactly like 'Boogie With Stu.' At least Zep credited Mrs. Valens so she could get some royalties from a song Richie never got any for. Yet the credits read: Bonham, Jones, Page, Plant, Ian Stewart, Mrs. Valens (in that order). For those who don't know, pianist extraordinaire Ian (Stu) Stewart was the sixth member of the Stones until their first manager told the Stones that Stu could play all he wanted on Stones' albums but could NOT appear on album covers or when the band was on TV (for the sin of not looking like a Rolling Stone). Stewart drove the Rolling Stones Mobile Truck to Headley Grange for the LZ4 1970 sessions. As a longtime acquaintance of Jimmy Page, it's easy to understand that while Stu was hanging around that Zep and he might jam on some old rock favorites they loved from the 50s. 'Boogie With Stu' must've been the best of the lot because it wound up on Physical Graffiti. Who filled out the credit sheet on that album had to be Page (and Grant?).
I received a lecture the other day in the comment section of a music reaction channel for mentioning that "Whole Lotta Love" was an adaptation of a 1962 Willie Dixon/Muddy Waters song "You Need Love"... and that Zeppelin drew inspiration from The Small Faces 1966 cover "You Need Lovin'", esp Mariott's vocals. The reply: ********The music has nothing to do with Dixon. Apart from a few lyrics, the song is a Zeppelin original. The only bit where Plant 'mimics' Marriotts line is "woman, you need it" but Plant is far higher in pitch and more powerful. He doesn't mimic Marriott anywhere else in the song******** Yeah, that's why I called it an adaptation and not a straight up cover.
@@bossfan49 If you listen to the Small Faces song and then to the Led Zep song, no one can ignore that Plant and Page heard the Small Faces song and added the riff and their own style. Jimmy Page himself one day said, when he was questioned about "WHOLE LOTTA LOVE", "...well, they didn't have the riff." For me it's obvious that he admitted that they took the Small Faces song and they should have given a credit to Willie Dixon.
@@georgeickhoff3646 Exactly. And I'm wasn't discounting Zeppelin's creativity either. That riff is how we know that song now, because it changed the whole groove. The SmFaces version is more pure blues (with the usual English twist), that riff being more similar to John Lee Hooker's "Boom Boom" which came out the same year as the original.
@@badgeholderdave Later they or the record company did. By the way that not the matter of the short discussion. And my last word about that is that I still love Led Zep and what Page and Plant or Page and especially Plant did later. A whole lot of love from Germany
Yes...... I just discovered you, and I'm very impressed with the way you handled the touchy subject of led Zeppelin stealing music.... I am looking forward to binge watching some of your other work.... I started writing this comment about an hour ago and turned into this huge essay on music and history and what defines us as artists supposed to consumers etc etc etc. However I deleted it because it's just me going off on a tangent again. For me music is as important as breathing eating drinking sleeping and defecating. I'm not a crazy person.... Just someone who's grateful that we have the technology we have today.... That allow us to consume whatever type of music we want, whenever we want, wherever we are. We are lucky. I am looking forward to watching more of your videos and to see what you come up with in the future. Thank you for getting my mind flowing a little bit as I am kind of a major mental slump musically financially emotionally spiritually et cetera et cetera et cetera. I'm looking at my guitars right now thinking I should plug all those things into those amps and just start playing..... .... I'll let you know how it goes. 😊 "Rock and roll ain't noise pollution... It just makes good good sense...." -ACDC ( See.....i credited the band for that quote.... Even though I probably got the quote wrong ... I've learned from my forefathers in the music world. 😊) "Humans make mistakes ...mistakes are made to be made.... and if we don't make mistakes.... An acknowledged that we were wrong....we will never learn ...." -C Schweizer Respect to you sir for clearing up your mistake in the title.... And for that cool shirt you're wearing. Rock on....😊😊😊😊
I was just listening to Bert Jansch’s Jack Orion album. At least three of the tracks on there were ripped off by Jimmy. I’m a huge Zeppelin fan, but c’mon??? It is such blatant plagiarism. I’m a musician/songwriter myself and I’m very careful to use the influence of my favorite artists but not to rip them off where anyone would accuse me of theft
The other argument I hear is that all the old blues and folk musicians would "steal" each other songs, etc and no one said anything back then. There were no lawsuits. Well, I don't know what to say except their recordings didn't get any/much radio airplay, and/or they weren't releasing them on major labels (Atlantic). Or maybe those situations were handled under the table, or by other means.
I have been formulating a possible thesis about the whole Led Zeppelin plagiarism debate. Nothing professional, just my own personal hypothesis. Here me out: Back in the early sixties a lot of record producers in England, such as Bert Berns, Mickie Most, Shel Talmy, Don Arden and Andrew Oldham often would think of old, "obscure" folk and blues songs that their clients could record during sessions. For example, when The Kinks were making their first album and they had run through all of their original songs, Shel Talmy had the band record an old traditional blues song called, "Bald Headed Woman". At the least, the very attempt at playing this song could use up the last few minutes of studio time. The song was recorded and included on The Kinks' self-titled debut album. One of the studio musicians helping The Kinks out on that day was...Jimmy Page. A few months later, when Mr. Talmy produced The Who's first recording session, he has them record "Bald Headed Woman", which was later released as the B-side to "I Can't Explain". Yet again, Jimmy Page was on hand as a studio musician to help on rhythm guitar (or, as John Entwistle later wrote in the liner notes of Two's Missing, Page was the only guitar player in London at that time who had a fuzz box). If you look at the writing credits on both records, you'll notice that it's credited as being written by Shel Talmy. Or, since the example of "Whole Lotta Love" was discussed, when The Small Faces were making their first self-titled album, Don Arden had them record their version of "You Need Love", which they then retitled as "You Need Loving". Again, if you look at the writing credits for that song, it's credited to Steve Marriott & Ronnie Lane (whether or not Jimmy Page was hired for that session, I really don't know). My point is this, Page was frequently hired by Talmy, Berns, Most, et al. to play on these recording sessions, so he more than likely learned that whole think-of-an-"obscure"-song-and-claim-credit-for-it trick from these producers as a means to get an extra buck/quid. I love Led Zeppelin, they're one of my favorite bands, as well. I think Page is very talented and one of the best producers in the music biz. However, I'm not trying to be an apologist nor am I saying that it was right for him to try to pull that off. He might have been well aware of the moral, legal and financial indictments of such an act; I don't really know. He might have had the thought of, "Everyone else is doing it, so why can't we?" Again, I have no idea. The point to my hypothesis is, this was a very common practice, unfortunately, which Jimmy Page more than likely learned while at the feet of these record producers early in his career. Again, not making excuses, just saying, that was what a lot of producers did. Zeppelin should have known better and they should have given credit to Willie Dixon, Memphis Minnie and Howlin' Wolf.
Thanks for setting me straight, TJR. I'm sorry if my last comment was taken as "mean and nasty." I'm not married to Led Zeppelin, defending an abusive spouse here. I'm actually married to The Beatles, and I occasionally cheat on them with my illicit Led Zeppelin getaways!
The term "Mean & Nasty" was really just meant to be taken as toungue in cheek LOL...but I honestly respect and admire your response. PS: I feel similarly about The Beatles too.
STOP IT! 😂😂You almost made me choke on my cookie when you mentioned that “Hendrix hated The Beatles” mistake 😂😂😂 I don’t know why that struck me so funny…
my mom raised me on Zep, Im not die in the wool fan and I like them... but yeah they ripped those artists off big time. You shouldn't get flack for pointing this out, but sadly we live in the social media age, where people get offended if you dont like your favorite colour and have to bully relentlessly for it. Being a growing up is learning to disagree but still have respect for each other. we're not talking genocide here, were talking fucking music !
My only question is why did Ahmet Ertegun, knowing what he knew about Blues and who did what and wrote what, allow the songs to go uncredited to the original artists in the first place? After all it was his studio.
I understand what plant was saying the stuff he wrote and sang when he was a young man doesn’t mean anything to him now that he’s older he can’t relate to it anymore which I understand and people who are young probably don’t understand but they will when they get older you change what you thought was cool when you were young isn’t so much cool when you’re older and I’m so glad he went and carved his own path doing his solo stuff
Babe I’m going to leave you is a cover of a song covered by Joan Baez. Why did Page and Plant add their names to the credits? They didn’t write one word of that song but collected Royalties anyway! So I’m going to cover some Zep tunes and add my name to the Credits too! 😂 Then Since I’ve been loving you is a Moby Grape song. They lifted the lyrics entirely and just changed the name of the song! Then collected the Royalties again. The family of Moby Grape should sue!
Great video TJR... First let me say that this is your channel, you have a right to say whatever you like, and if anyone doesn't like what you say, then they should respond to you in a nice way because we all have opinions, and unlike what some believe, sometimes we make mistakes... I enjoy your channel, I enjoy when Robert is on with you too... I do have a beef with you though, how can you mention Taylor Swift in the same sentence with The Beatles...LOL, just kidding
LOL. It says something for the Beatles, that they can still help make record store day, successful, and that the only other artist they can do the same is the “current” biggest artist in the world. I’ve never connected with Taylor‘s music in a big way, but there are a few songs of hers that I really liked. I really enjoyed the video and song for “shake it off”.
You have to choose your words carefully because anything you say on the internet lives forever. I did not here anything you said that deserved a angry. comment
Not an angry comment, and I'm not singling you out because I hear other youtubers doing this as well: Is RUclips requiring hosts to say "Welcome back to my channel, and if you're new here- Welcome!" It's becoming more common and I'm wondering about the reason for it. The two separate 'welcomes" just sound awkward and unnecessary. I feel one welcome covers everybody. I won't feel slighted if I don't get a separate "welcome back" acknowledging that I'm a repeat viewer or subscriber. Nor do I feel excluded if they say "welcome back", and I'm a first-time viewer. It's akin to going through the checkout at the store, or a drive-thru and they say "Have a good REST OF YOUR DAY". Very awkward sounding (and poor grammar). I realize a portion of the day has expired- no need to point it out. A simple "Have a good day" is fine...also, that covers me for 24 hours...not just until midnight. 😀Anyways thanks for listening.
I don’t post videos and I get mean and nasty replies to my comments. Not a big deal. It’s all a part of being on RUclips. If you think you’re going to get only the comments you want, then you might not want to post any more videos. If you’re going to have a channel that posts videos you’re going to have to not worry about. Antagonizing people is not going to get you more subscribers. Comments are meant to have different opinions. Not just the ones you want them to have. By the way I enjoy your videos when they just stick to the information. I read the comments for fun and a good laugh
@@TJRtheOriginal I said I get mean and nasty replies to my comments which was tongue in cheek. You must have taken my comment seriously. Love your channel
I used to be a Zeppelin fan until the late 80s or early 90s, when we all thought Zeppelin was getting back together. I watched an interview were Robert Plant said in front of Jimmy Page "everything we've done before now is crap". I hear that comment every time I hear anything with Plants voice on it, and it infuriates me. Is that bad on my part?
@@MIKECNW I'm talking about Plants comment. It hit me the wrong way. Plus as far as I'm concerned, Plant and Page were just setting us up for disappointment. Just stringing us on.
@@josephblue4135 Lennon attacked everyone and everything when he was in one of those moods, including himself and his own work. I guess that was just John being John.
I do agree page did steal most those songs he should of gotten permission of gave credit and payed dues its like htaking a famous book like orient express for exaple and you rewite the book and say you wrote it i agree
I still don't understand the big brou-ha-ha wailed over Led Zeppelin's 'Whole Lotta Love' 'swipe' of Muddy Waters' 'You Need Love'. Okay, most of the lyrics are the same, but honestly, if you were to play the two tracks back to back, would you really hear them as the same piece of music? Performance-wise, arrangement-wise, mood-wise, they sound so different and therefore cancel any accusation of theft.
If you missed out on royalties as a result of a song you wrote being plagiarized, you might feel differently. I heard “You Need Love” before I ever heard “Whole Lotta Love” and it was obvious immediately that the lyrics were identical. Even the vocal melody and inflection was similar. It’s disingenuous to do that without giving credit. The issue isn’t with it being covered, but with the neglect of crediting the song appropriately.
As far as Zeppelin, its 7 songs, and most of you never the same ones right. All musicians borrow. And further more, no one really cares, except for the losers who never made it in the business. Boring. LedHed Pb 207.20 🎶 🎸 🎹
Hey genius, Led Zeppelin didn't "borrow", they literally stole other people's songs! Look at the songwriting credits on Led Zeppelin's original albums and compare them to the songwriting credits on Led Zeppelin's re-issued albums ! NOTICE ANY FUCKING DIFFERENCE ????? Led Zeppelin are proven plagiarists who gave credit where credit was due only when serious litigation was coming their way !
While I acknowledge the influence Led Zep have had on many bands that came after, and I like contemporaries like Black Sabbath and Deep Purple I've never liked them because I don't really like blues music, and I loathe folk music and they are big and integral parts of Led Zeps music I don't like Pages guitar tone, its thin cold and scratchy sounding to me. Is playing is frequently quite sloppy too, not my style Plant's voice gets hoarse and strained just a few years into their career. They were only a good live for a a few short years in their early days. After 1972 or so they're just boring. Also hard core Zep fans are some of most obnoxious and narrow minded fandoms you'll ever encounter.
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You're absolutely right. I'm a die-hard Zep fan since I discovered them at age 13 in the mid 70s...but they should have given credit where credit was due.
👍
It helps to keep in mind that these negative comments come from those projecting their own unhappiness onto everything and everyone else.
If a person puts a nasty comment, in every single case, they are really saying 'I am inadequate'.
Or to put it more fully 'I am trying to upset you because I am inadequate'.
It helps to stand back and observe this behaviour from the perspective of an outsider, because the spectator sees more of the game, and it becomes very clear that the nastiness is merely a reflection of them, and not you.
Thank you., I must keep that in mind.
TJR you crack me up. I love when you said that some people don't pay attention. A lot of people are not trying to pay attention. Some people will see your thumbnail in the title of your video they will leave a comment without even watching the video sometimes. I saw this a few weeks ago a guy posted a video was 30 minutes long a person left a comment literally right after the video was posted telling him he was wrong so there's absolutely no way they actually watch the video.
lol. You are probably right. The Internet is notorious for Leap before it looks.
I see that a lot. Someone will leave a comment "informing" the person in the video of something that they plainly covered in said video. Also...very few people read comments. Often, that's why there are 75 comments all saying the same thing. People like to talk and not listen.
Bravo TJR, well stated and succinctly argued. I think these Zeppelin apologists are STILL full of crap--and we've heard it from members of the rock "journalism" class, all the way up to industry folk like Ahmet Ertegun, who I've heard make comments to the same effect as many of those you highlighted. Only Page can answer as to why he did not properly acknowledge his sources. Growing up in the 70s, I experienced this music without the knowledge of what came before it, and even to this end find myself stunned when I realize where this material came from. I only recently listened to Jake Holmes' Dazed and Confused, and don't know how Page could give himself a songwriting credit on their debut album for that title.
I think Zeppelin is very much a "modern" artist in the sense that they did what essentially all great modern art does--they 'made it new'. The apologists who site listening to Zep's version and listening to the 'original' version and how drastically different they are, do not get the point. The idea of 'making it new' isn't some rock music thing, but, to my knowledge, goes back to early 20th century literary arts, poet Ezra Pound, in particularly. Pound popularized the aesthetic that modern writing, really all modern art, is about 'making it new'--in other words, you are not going to say or create anything that hasn't been done before, but you need to make it new. There are countless examples in all art forms where this is the case.
As for music, and for those who think Zeppelin deserves a pass for the stunning re-imagining they did of other people's work, there are COUNTLESS examples of the same thing happening in other music genres, particularly jazz. Two quick examples come to mind: take a listen to John Coltrane's My Favorite Things, or Out of This World--neither of which would EVER be confused with the original pop tunes of Rodgers-Hammerstein and Johnny Mercer, respectively....but both composers were properly credited when Trane recorded and released his landmark versions of them.
That being said, when I was a kid, I never understood the "Trad arrangement by....." on songwriting credits, and I still don't. I mean, I recall my original vinyl copy of Zep I crediting "Babe I'm Gonna Leave You" as 'Traditional arrangement Jimmy Page'...which means what? That the version he plays is his own arrangement, but the song is actually someone else's? Thus he'd receive songwriting royalties for it?? The same thing was the case with Love in Vain by the Stones...on Get Yer Ya Ya's Out, it is credited to "Traditional arrangement Jagger/Richards", but I don't recall if the version on Let It Bleed was properly credited to Robert Johnson. The Stones, as we know, were hardly reluctant to credit their blues sources, though.
I don't know if the issue of 'public domain' factored into any of this as well...that being said, if any of these tunes were simply in the public domain, and not subject to copyright issues. Either way, didn't another English folk dude have some issue with Page??? Davey Graham?? Was he the guy that did White Summer??
The credit of "Traditional" refers to a song wherein the name of the original songwriter is no longer known (and is in the public domain by default).
They are often referred to more commonly as a traditional folk song, or a traditional country western song etc.
These are songs that got passed down from generation to generation long before there was a way to copyright the ownership of song and the name of the original author(s) has been lost to time.
Sometimes adoration puts the blinkers to reality on. I was shocked, and to be honest a bit disappointed and didn't want to believe it when I first heard that LZ music was not all their own. But as a aged I learned that all our heros have flaws and I am content with recognizing the craft and brilliance of Page and Co, while also understanding they, at times, failed to pay due respects.
Plant nicked far more lyrics than Page lifted guitar parts BUT both were guilty of the practice. Listening to 'You Need Love' decades after 'Whole Lotta Love' I almost doubled over laughing. I was buying albums long before Led Zeppelin debuted after changing their New Yardbirds moniker---I never heard the Small Faces' 'You Need Love' on American radio however it must've been blatantly familiar to British listeners as it had only been released three years earlier. The way Richard Cole told the story in his 'Stairway to Heaven' book was that Plant had recorded a great vocal and the musicians created parts around it to complement his caterwauling; on 'Whole Lotta Love' Plant always sounded (to me) like some kid in a studio hollering a bunch of phrases through echo and delay units just for grins. I can just imagine Peter Grant listening to the finished product approvingly and saying "let the Faces sue us for thousands, we'll make millions," but I wasn't there to overhear anything, just elaborating on Cole's observation. There's no excuse for 'Dazed & Confused' and 'Black Mountainside' although both soothed my ears vastly more than Jake Holmes or Bert Jansch (whom Page greatly admired). As far as song titles go THOSE cannot be copyrighted the way I understand it, i.e. between 1969 and 1973 Grand Funk, Zep and the Stones all recorded songs called Heartbreaker. By early 1972 all the kids were talking about Spirit's 'Taurus' in the same breath as 'Stairway To Heaven.' At the same time Randy California, the author, knew it too but never raised hell about it, only his heirs seeking a vulgar payday for themselves took it to court and were legally slapped down. I hope it cost them in lawyer fees, that was petty. 'Nobody's Fault But Mine' and 'The Lemon Song' are two of my all-time favorite Zep tunes. The first time I saw Zep in concert in August 1969 they'd already recorded Lemon but Plant introduced it as 'Killing Floor.' Again the hulking thug Peter Grant MIGHT have intervened and said "retitle it and take credit for it, we'll still make money on it if it goes to court." I repeat I didn't overhear a word of what went on behind the scenes, I'm merely speculating. Everything the Zeppelin borrowed and committed to vinyl was an improvement on the original because none of the originals had John Bonham playing the drums on the track. In the case of the drum-free 'Black Waterside' Bert Jansch was singing as well as playing the guitar at the same time.
I made a similar comment the other day about "Whole Lotta Love" and got an earful from a Zep fanatic.
@@bossfan49 That's harsh, but 44 years after LZ broke up a younger generation who never saw them live became fanatical. RUclips has 'You Need Love' by the Small Faces; it's that easy to listen to, and free. Anyone whose never heard it before will be amused---or astounded, angry, outraged, in denial, etc. For the same reaction listen to 'Ooh! My Head' by Richie Valens which sounds exactly like 'Boogie With Stu.' At least Zep credited Mrs. Valens so she could get some royalties from a song Richie never got any for. Yet the credits read: Bonham, Jones, Page, Plant, Ian Stewart, Mrs. Valens (in that order). For those who don't know, pianist extraordinaire Ian (Stu) Stewart was the sixth member of the Stones until their first manager told the Stones that Stu could play all he wanted on Stones' albums but could NOT appear on album covers or when the band was on TV (for the sin of not looking like a Rolling Stone). Stewart drove the Rolling Stones Mobile Truck to Headley Grange for the LZ4 1970 sessions. As a longtime acquaintance of Jimmy Page, it's easy to understand that while Stu was hanging around that Zep and he might jam on some old rock favorites they loved from the 50s. 'Boogie With Stu' must've been the best of the lot because it wound up on Physical Graffiti. Who filled out the credit sheet on that album had to be Page (and Grant?).
@@bossfan49 Zep and, even worse, Les Beatles have attracted innumerable fanatics. I can't even listen to either any more.
I received a lecture the other day in the comment section of a music reaction channel for mentioning that "Whole Lotta Love" was an adaptation of a 1962 Willie Dixon/Muddy Waters song "You Need Love"... and that Zeppelin drew inspiration from The Small Faces 1966 cover "You Need Lovin'", esp Mariott's vocals.
The reply:
********The music has nothing to do with Dixon. Apart from a few lyrics, the song is a Zeppelin original.
The only bit where Plant 'mimics' Marriotts line is "woman, you need it" but Plant is far higher in pitch and more powerful. He doesn't mimic Marriott anywhere else in the song********
Yeah, that's why I called it an adaptation and not a straight up cover.
@@bossfan49 If you listen to the Small Faces song and then to the Led Zep song, no one can ignore that Plant and Page heard the Small Faces song and added the riff and their own style. Jimmy Page himself one day said, when he was questioned about "WHOLE LOTTA LOVE", "...well, they didn't have the riff." For me it's obvious that he admitted that they took the Small Faces song and they should have given a credit to Willie Dixon.
@@georgeickhoff3646 Exactly. And I'm wasn't discounting Zeppelin's creativity either. That riff is how we know that song now, because it changed the whole groove. The SmFaces version is more pure blues (with the usual English twist), that riff being more similar to John Lee Hooker's "Boom Boom" which came out the same year as the original.
@@georgeickhoff3646 When originally released The Small Faces did not credit Dixon either.
@@badgeholderdave Later they or the record company did. By the way that not the matter of the short discussion. And my last word about that is that I still love Led Zep and what Page and Plant or Page and especially Plant did later. A whole lot of love from Germany
The riff to Whole Lotta Love is taken from Hendrix's version of Hey Joe, it's the short turnaround that comes after each verse.
I think they missed it by not releasing A Hard Day’s Night on Black & White vinyl to match their black and white film. ❤
🤣
@@TJRtheOriginalVery good coverage of Zeppelin’s culpability btw!
The nice think about this video is... It shows that TJR is reading our comments so thank you.
You're welcome.
Yes...... I just discovered you, and I'm very impressed with the way you handled the touchy subject of led Zeppelin stealing music.... I am looking forward to binge watching some of your other work.... I started writing this comment about an hour ago and turned into this huge essay on music and history and what defines us as artists supposed to consumers etc etc etc.
However I deleted it because it's just me going off on a tangent again.
For me music is as important as breathing eating drinking sleeping and defecating.
I'm not a crazy person.... Just someone who's grateful that we have the technology we have today.... That allow us to consume whatever type of music we want, whenever we want, wherever we are.
We are lucky.
I am looking forward to watching more of your videos and to see what you come up with in the future.
Thank you for getting my mind flowing a little bit as I am kind of a major mental slump musically financially emotionally spiritually et cetera et cetera et cetera.
I'm looking at my guitars right now thinking I should plug all those things into those amps and just start playing.....
.... I'll let you know how it goes. 😊
"Rock and roll ain't noise pollution... It just makes good good sense...." -ACDC
( See.....i credited the band for that quote.... Even though I probably got the quote wrong ... I've learned from my forefathers in the music world. 😊)
"Humans make mistakes ...mistakes are made to be made.... and if we don't make mistakes.... An acknowledged that we were wrong....we will never learn ...." -C Schweizer
Respect to you sir for clearing up your mistake in the title.... And for that cool shirt you're wearing.
Rock on....😊😊😊😊
Please forgive my typos.
no worries
Thank you for mentioning me on your Channel. I've been a subscriber for several years. It's a great honor!
You are so welcome. Thanks for the comment.
I was just listening to Bert Jansch’s Jack Orion album. At least three of the tracks on there were ripped off by Jimmy. I’m a huge Zeppelin fan, but c’mon??? It is such blatant plagiarism. I’m a musician/songwriter myself and I’m very careful to use the influence of my favorite artists but not to rip them off where anyone would accuse me of theft
Who cares?
The other argument I hear is that all the old blues and folk musicians would "steal" each other songs, etc and no one said anything back then. There were no lawsuits. Well, I don't know what to say except their recordings didn't get any/much radio airplay, and/or they weren't releasing them on major labels (Atlantic). Or maybe those situations were handled under the table, or by other means.
I have been formulating a possible thesis about the whole Led Zeppelin plagiarism debate. Nothing professional, just my own personal hypothesis. Here me out:
Back in the early sixties a lot of record producers in England, such as Bert Berns, Mickie Most, Shel Talmy, Don Arden and Andrew Oldham often would think of old, "obscure" folk and blues songs that their clients could record during sessions. For example, when The Kinks were making their first album and they had run through all of their original songs, Shel Talmy had the band record an old traditional blues song called, "Bald Headed Woman". At the least, the very attempt at playing this song could use up the last few minutes of studio time. The song was recorded and included on The Kinks' self-titled debut album. One of the studio musicians helping The Kinks out on that day was...Jimmy Page. A few months later, when Mr. Talmy produced The Who's first recording session, he has them record "Bald Headed Woman", which was later released as the B-side to "I Can't Explain". Yet again, Jimmy Page was on hand as a studio musician to help on rhythm guitar (or, as John Entwistle later wrote in the liner notes of Two's Missing, Page was the only guitar player in London at that time who had a fuzz box). If you look at the writing credits on both records, you'll notice that it's credited as being written by Shel Talmy. Or, since the example of "Whole Lotta Love" was discussed, when The Small Faces were making their first self-titled album, Don Arden had them record their version of "You Need Love", which they then retitled as "You Need Loving". Again, if you look at the writing credits for that song, it's credited to Steve Marriott & Ronnie Lane (whether or not Jimmy Page was hired for that session, I really don't know).
My point is this, Page was frequently hired by Talmy, Berns, Most, et al. to play on these recording sessions, so he more than likely learned that whole think-of-an-"obscure"-song-and-claim-credit-for-it trick from these producers as a means to get an extra buck/quid.
I love Led Zeppelin, they're one of my favorite bands, as well. I think Page is very talented and one of the best producers in the music biz. However, I'm not trying to be an apologist nor am I saying that it was right for him to try to pull that off. He might have been well aware of the moral, legal and financial indictments of such an act; I don't really know. He might have had the thought of, "Everyone else is doing it, so why can't we?" Again, I have no idea.
The point to my hypothesis is, this was a very common practice, unfortunately, which Jimmy Page more than likely learned while at the feet of these record producers early in his career. Again, not making excuses, just saying, that was what a lot of producers did.
Zeppelin should have known better and they should have given credit to Willie Dixon, Memphis Minnie and Howlin' Wolf.
Very interesting. Thanks for sharing.
Thanks for setting me straight, TJR. I'm sorry if my last comment was taken as "mean and nasty." I'm not married to Led Zeppelin, defending an abusive spouse here. I'm actually married to The Beatles, and I occasionally cheat on them with my illicit Led Zeppelin getaways!
The term "Mean & Nasty" was really just meant to be taken as toungue in cheek LOL...but I honestly respect and admire your response.
PS: I feel similarly about The Beatles too.
STOP IT! 😂😂You almost made me choke on my cookie when you mentioned that “Hendrix hated The Beatles” mistake 😂😂😂
I don’t know why that struck me so funny…
my mom raised me on Zep, Im not die in the wool fan and I like them... but yeah they ripped those artists off big time. You shouldn't get flack for pointing this out, but sadly we live in the social media age, where people get offended if you dont like your favorite colour and have to bully relentlessly for it. Being a growing up is learning to disagree but still have respect for each other. we're not talking genocide here, were talking fucking music !
My only question is why did Ahmet Ertegun, knowing what he knew about Blues and who did what and wrote what, allow the songs to go uncredited to the original artists in the first place? After all it was his studio.
That is an interesting question. I think I might go into research mode.
I understand what plant was saying the stuff he wrote and sang when he was a young man doesn’t mean anything to him now that he’s older he can’t relate to it anymore which I understand and people who are young probably don’t understand but they will when they get older you change what you thought was cool when you were young isn’t so much cool when you’re older and I’m so glad he went and carved his own path doing his solo stuff
Part of the blame of zeppelin’s plagiarism could be placed upon their hard-nosed manager, Peter Grant.
Babe I’m going to leave you is a cover of a song covered by Joan Baez. Why did Page and Plant add their names to the credits? They didn’t write one word of that song but collected Royalties anyway! So I’m going to cover some Zep tunes and add my name to the Credits too! 😂
Then Since I’ve been loving you is a Moby Grape song. They lifted the lyrics entirely and just changed the name of the song! Then collected the Royalties again. The family of Moby Grape should sue!
Great video TJR... First let me say that this is your channel, you have a right to say whatever you like, and if anyone doesn't like what you say, then they should respond to you in a nice way because we all have opinions, and unlike what some believe, sometimes we make mistakes... I enjoy your channel, I enjoy when Robert is on with you too... I do have a beef with you though, how can you mention Taylor Swift in the same sentence with The Beatles...LOL, just kidding
LOL. It says something for the Beatles, that they can still help make record store day, successful, and that the only other artist they can do the same is the “current” biggest artist in the world.
I’ve never connected with Taylor‘s music in a big way, but there are a few songs of hers that I really liked. I really enjoyed the video and song for “shake it off”.
She has talent, I like a few of her Christmas songs, but I'm a fan of Classic Rock, not Pop and Hip hop. You're right, it says a lot for The Beatles.
You have to choose your words carefully because anything you say on the internet lives forever. I did not here anything you said that deserved a angry. comment
Always thought Yes was better than Led Zeppelin because as musicians and crafted songs, they were just so much better
Not an angry comment, and I'm not singling you out because I hear other youtubers doing this as well: Is RUclips requiring hosts to say "Welcome back to my channel, and if you're new here- Welcome!" It's becoming more common and I'm wondering about the reason for it. The two separate 'welcomes" just sound awkward and unnecessary. I feel one welcome covers everybody. I won't feel slighted if I don't get a separate "welcome back" acknowledging that I'm a repeat viewer or subscriber. Nor do I feel excluded if they say "welcome back", and I'm a first-time viewer.
It's akin to going through the checkout at the store, or a drive-thru and they say "Have a good REST OF YOUR DAY". Very awkward sounding (and poor grammar). I realize a portion of the day has expired- no need to point it out. A simple "Have a good day" is fine...also, that covers me for 24 hours...not just until midnight. 😀Anyways thanks for listening.
You're welcome. RUclips is not requiring we say this. I just think it's a good courtesy.
Hoss style, dog style, any style.
I don’t post videos and I get mean and nasty replies to my comments. Not a big deal. It’s all a part of being on RUclips. If you think you’re going to get only the comments you want, then you might not want to post any more videos. If you’re going to have a channel that posts videos you’re going to have to not worry about. Antagonizing people is not going to get you more subscribers. Comments are meant to have different opinions. Not just the ones you want them to have. By the way I enjoy your videos when they just stick to the information. I read the comments for fun and a good laugh
The term "Mean and Nasty Comments" was, and is meant tougue in cheek....If you interpreted it any other way, you took it way too seriously.
@@TJRtheOriginal I said I get mean and nasty replies to my comments which was tongue in cheek. You must have taken my comment seriously. Love your channel
I used to be a Zeppelin fan until the late 80s or early 90s, when we all thought Zeppelin was getting back together. I watched an interview were Robert Plant said in front of Jimmy Page "everything we've done before now is crap". I hear that comment every time I hear anything with Plants voice on it, and it infuriates me. Is that bad on my part?
Why would you allow them not getting back together not to be a fan of them anymore? That's stupid.
@@MIKECNW I'm talking about Plants comment. It hit me the wrong way. Plus as far as I'm concerned, Plant and Page were just setting us up for disappointment. Just stringing us on.
@@StuffILearnedFromRUclips-wn1pf whatever.
@@StuffILearnedFromRUclips-wn1pf - John Lennon was notorious for not liking many of The Beatles' songs, but I love them.
@@josephblue4135 Lennon attacked everyone and everything when he was in one of those moods, including himself and his own work. I guess that was just John being John.
All what you're saying has gone out the window with mass ups that are being thrown out now.
Seems to me that headlines should be handled more carefully or without trying to get more clicks.
Yes, there's way too many 'baiting' video titles like "The one thing everybody gets wrong about...." or "5 things you never knew about...."
Anyone who makes videos called “Answering Your Mean & Nasty Comments” is hard to take seriously 😂
Good.
I may not be the first or the last comment, but usually I'm closer to the mean - somewhere in the middle. Thus, I provide only mean comments.
Thank you. We appreciate that 😝
I do agree page did steal most those songs he should of gotten permission of gave credit and payed dues its like htaking a famous book like orient express for exaple and you rewite the book and say you wrote it i agree
Is Led Zeppelin the only band out there that has committed this terrible crime in all of music history ?
No. They all do it.
LedHed Pb 207.20 🎶 🎸 🎹
I still don't understand the big brou-ha-ha wailed over Led Zeppelin's 'Whole Lotta Love' 'swipe' of Muddy Waters' 'You Need Love'. Okay, most of the lyrics are the same, but honestly, if you were to play the two tracks back to back, would you really hear them as the same piece of music? Performance-wise, arrangement-wise, mood-wise, they sound so different and therefore cancel any accusation of theft.
If you missed out on royalties as a result of a song you wrote being plagiarized, you might feel differently. I heard “You Need Love” before I ever heard “Whole Lotta Love” and it was obvious immediately that the lyrics were identical. Even the vocal melody and inflection was similar.
It’s disingenuous to do that without giving credit. The issue isn’t with it being covered, but with the neglect of crediting the song appropriately.
As far as Zeppelin, its 7 songs, and most of you never the same ones right. All musicians borrow. And further more, no one really cares, except for the losers who never made it in the business. Boring.
LedHed Pb 207.20 🎶 🎸 🎹
Hey genius, Led Zeppelin didn't "borrow", they literally stole other people's songs!
Look at the songwriting credits on Led Zeppelin's original albums and compare them to the songwriting credits on Led Zeppelin's re-issued albums !
NOTICE ANY FUCKING DIFFERENCE ?????
Led Zeppelin are proven plagiarists who gave credit where credit was due only when serious litigation was coming their way !
While I acknowledge the influence Led Zep have had on many bands that came after, and I like contemporaries like Black Sabbath and Deep Purple I've never liked them because
I don't really like blues music, and I loathe folk music and they are big and integral parts of Led Zeps music
I don't like Pages guitar tone, its thin cold and scratchy sounding to me. Is playing is frequently quite sloppy too, not my style
Plant's voice gets hoarse and strained just a few years into their career.
They were only a good live for a a few short years in their early days. After 1972 or so they're just boring.
Also hard core Zep fans are some of most obnoxious and narrow minded fandoms you'll ever encounter.
I completely agree with you. The worst fanbase ever.