Mosin-Nagant Factory Pressure Test Rifle
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
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How did people determine chamber pressure in the years before computers and fancy electronics? Well, by squishing a calibrated slug of copper. Factories would convert rifles specifically for pressure testing use by adding a pressure ring around the chamber, drilling a hole in it, and then threading in a gage to crush a block of copper. This Mosin Nagant is an excellent example of the system, complete with the all the testing apparatus!
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I would love to see one of these firing in slow motion and seeing the copper squish
It would be cool to see it fire,however the "squish" is probably measured in thousandths or hundredths of an inch and not as dramatic as one might imagine.
Quick let's get Talfledermaus on this project!
@@JohnLeePedimore Unlikely, since they could measure this before 1900, at a time when measuring thousandths or hundredths of an inch wasn't possible.
@@anzaca1 Micrometers have been around since the 1850's. thousands or ten thousandths of an inch can be measured that early
@@anzaca1 Joseph Whitworth was measuring thousandths of an inch back in 1857 and the micrometer is much older than that. I'm not sure if they even used CUP on black powder guns back then because the normal method was to "proof test" the barrels by loading a double charge and firing it. Proof testing is still in use in Italy today.
Props to Ian for speeding up the un-screwing of the piston unit.
Oh wow, this rifle was made in Imperial Russia. You can see on the markings it says "Imperial Tul's weapon factory". This rifle is literally more than 100 years old.
*Tula's
@@RonJohn63 And interestingly, the testing rig is dated 1914. Someone took a rifle from backstock to convert for cartridge development at Tula.
I have one that was made in 1898
Very technically speaking, a Mosin Nagant with a gas piston.
Taco press included
Fully automatic mosin
in a very specific sense, a firearm itself is just a type of heat driven piston engine. so this is a heat piston with another heat piston attatched to find the operating pressure of the first heat piston
Hahaha
Thanks! I've seen 'C.U.P.' for a long time, but never knew how it was actually derived.
I've seen U.P too ;)
It's expressed in PSI nowadays in ballistic and reloading information but they still call it CUP.
@@thetoecutter13 Yep. There are many cautions about getting them mixed up.
That's how copper money was made in imperial Russia
The kopyeyka minting machine
nice
CUP pressure test is no longer primary method in Russia.
Now, Putin puts his finger over a hole in chamber, and just writes down how much pressure he felt
Right,but "Putin" is wrong. Right is "Hyuilo"
From copper to Kopek.
Fun Fact: the receiver markings translate to "Emperor's Tula arms factory".
where im from, "tula" means dick. So this factory would be something like Emperor's dick factory, lmao
@@DekazetaDKZ Tula is a city in Russia where the oldest Russian firearms factory is located
@@alcedob.5850 tulammo #1
I always wondered how “CUPs” where calculated, and why they where called “Copper Units”.
Thank you.
It's a Pasta machine, but without the loose falling-of crank
Thank you very much for the channel! I knew almost nothing about firearms, and I would never had learned all that incredible secrets behind the science and history. And there you are, handling original prototypes and stuff...
One of the best youtubers I know, honestly. Keep it up! 👍👍👍
As a reloader I know what CUP is and have that info in some of my older manuals, but I've never seen a pressure test rifle . So this is a really cool video to watch . In recent reloading manuals PSI is used , and there is information stating the barrel used for load development of each cartridge before the various bullet weights and charges of powder used . Often times the barrel will be a certain manufacture , length and twist rate . But sometimes the barrel used is listed as "test barrel '. A knowledgeable shooter and reloader should inspect the fired brass for signs of overpressure . These are , but not limited to , primers showing signs of backing out of the pocket , primer cratering , primer flattening , excessive case stretch , and such . Interesting story , I was new to reloading and told a relative I could use the spent brass from his 30-30 to reload better than factory ammo . When I received some brass he had recently shot I gave them an inspection before depriming . The primers were set back from the pocket a few thousands of an inch were a bit flattened , and were starting to crater . I asked him how his rifle was shooting . He said as accurately as ever , but the recoil seemed harder . I told him his rifle was shooting too high a pressure . Over the years he cleaned the powder residue from his bore and chamber, but never cleaned for copper fouling . After a thorough cleaning of copper buildup the rifle shot factory ammo with no signs of overpressure , but accuracy was terrible . My handloads shot equally poor groups . Years of improper cleaning had damaged the the rifling just forward of the chamber . The fouling was allowing the bullet into the rifling straight but slowing it's release from the case . Y'all Take note . Clean your guns of powder residue and metal fouling . And if your spent brass , especially the primers , look wonky , have the gun checked out before shooting it anymore . Peace , Out !
I don’t even own a firearm and this was insanely interesting to read. Thank you!!!
The calculation is fairly easy to calculate chamber pressure via this method. Its always interesting to see the change in technology over the years for just taking measurements. Now days strain gauges or piezoelectric sensors are used.
+Mongo63a
It's not easy enough to do without a calculator, but yea. I'll bet gauges are better than having to keep track of copper pellets, for sure!
@@Thelothuo Yes... but nowhere near as cool!
Piezo electronics are also used for amplifying acoustic instruments! Things like guitars and ukeleles. Interesting how the same concepts carry over. In acoustic instruments, the crystal is placed underneath the bridge saddle (where all the downward pressure from the strings goes into the body) and turns the string vibrations into an electric signal and then into an amplifier.
I love this, it is so much more palpable and aesthetic than electronic measurement. Rule of thumb: Everything was cooler in the past except when you got sick or belonged to the lower class.
If somebody wonders that writings on the reciever in front of the test tube means. It is 'Emperor's/Imperial Munitions Plant of Tula'
i thought it was "Cheeki Breeki"
The cone on the end of the thread is also the sealing surface, to stop gas leaking up the threads.
Mosin man, take me by the hand. :D
Something something Oberman
March to the corner of Siberia is a real trip.
Obrez man
The voyage to beat the Hapsburgs and Huns is a real trip
As glad as I am to live in 2018, I have great respect for people of the past, given what they could achieve with the available resources.
I mean so long as you know the Young's modulus of the copper sample then you can calculate the force applied. The force applied divided by the surface area of the chamber should be your chamber pressure
What an incredibly cool look into how old school factory testing was done. I bet that rifle would have some stories if it could talk.
Thanks for another great video.
Would be really cool to shoot it to show us! If possible of course!
If the firing pin was not removed and/or barrel stopped, it should still theoretically work.
Nagants are notoriously tough rifles - my best friend has a Russian Armory Mosin-Nagant, which saw heavy use through both World Wars (paper trails and stampings say this) and only now after a century of hard use, is it starting to show it's age.
And let me tell you, despite to being more than 4x my age, it still kicks like a mule and will deafen anyone at the shooting range if they're not wearing protection lol
Ian, you've answered a question I've had for some time about CUP, copper units of pressure. Now I know where the term came from and why there's no direct conversion of CUP to PSI. Another day that I learned something. It's a good day, thanks.
Years ago when I was an inspector in a large manufacturing facility hardness was tested using CPU's also by measuring the squish of the copper pellet by smashing into a surface with a round anvil to create a dent to a certain depth. The latter tests used a direct pressure reading but the old charts still listed CPU's for comparison.
I would strongly suggest these for anyone just getting into hunting for the first time or into range shooting. Its a fantastic rifle that doesnt break the bank
A really interesting video, thanks for sharing the CUP process
CUP and psi have no direct conversion, but are of the same general magnitude; a cartridge developing about 50,000 CUP will develop pressures in psi about the same plus or minus a few thousand.
The pressure tables are drawn up with copper cylinders of the type described, which are subjected to known pressure impulses in a pile driver-type device.
This is actually kind of simplistically genius, I wouldnt have thought to measure it in such a crude way, but measuring the deformation there would be mathematically super easy
This is so cool! It’s basically a second year engineering strengths problem to test a useful application!
Every 7.62x54 realoader needs one of these
For some reason I'm much more drawn to the old school of engineering to the modern day CNC and 3d printing era, I could watch things like this all day
Great video! Also congratulations on being able to say “vent gas out of your open hole” not only with a straight face, but also in a legitimate use case!!
Very cool. These types of videos are great
4:13
heh
Was looking for a comment to let me know I'm not the only immature one.
i was immediately reminded of a certain bit in the simpsons..
In Imperial Russia, units of copper C U P outside of urinal.
Daily dose of gun jesus
Daily dose of needless internet toxicity.
@@Nathan-mg7ho daily dose of social justice...
i guess, im just tired of people being dicks to each other for no apparent reason, call it social justice if you will
@@Nathan-mg7ho
I get you, bud...
'Consult the book of armaments .."Monty Python and the holy grail
There are two pressure testing Mauser rifles on display in the Museo Historico Militar de Cartagena, Spain.
Now that's a rare one, it deserves to be well preserved IMO.
Amazing thanks Ian
it always amazes me how quickly that much pressure is built up when the powder by its self doesn't burn all that fast
Thank you unnamed soldier who had the foresight to "liberate" all the working parts to this weapon/tool. I would not have had the knowledge to find all the little accompanying parts, especially the copper slug.
I don't recall any US soldiers ever invading the Tula factory. I'd say this was given to Winchester or some such in WWI to help with ammo manufacture.
@@wingracer1614 Ohh, perhaps. My thoughts were possibly a German soldier and the kit was later sold on the open market.
Thank you ,Ian .
I saw a 1916 Spanish Mauser pressure test rifle for auction once. I should have bought it.
You are the Bob Ross of guns!
Very interesting.... I never really thought about exactly how they went about doing things like that.
You can compress that copper plug with any amount of pressure, as long as the surface aero of your piston is big enough.
This truly my fav channel super interesting I had no idea so much thought went in to gas pressure
Correction at 6:01 the bolt is clearly serialized with ㄥ6ㄥㄣ not 4797
Need to email Ian some pics of my 1918 303 british
I would love to know how this got out of Russia
Submarine
American manufactured nagants and ammo were tested by russian inspectors with Russian equipment....
Factory worker probably swiped it when Soviets switched over to AK production since the testing pieces still with the gun. Then probably hidden until the 90s then sold off.
Or submarine
I believe when American companies like Westinghouse went to Russia and probably brought one back to help them create mosins. It'd be the smart thing to do just in case something was funny with the Russian gauges and could help adjust the American ones.
@@christopherdwyer7570 That exact one was made in Tula, however.
Modern pressure sensors utilize smart devices which measure CUP; this is formally known as "iCUP."
Oooh, this tickles my science muscle just the right way...
Cool setup.
What I learned to reload with was old lyman manuals and they all used cup whats weird is 45/70 gov is 24k cup and 24k psi may be only place they match cool to see the rifle and tool that those tables were made with
Thats pretty cool. Way to blow my mind
Beautiful rifle.
Love these bolt action marathon weeks
very interesting part of gun history
You ought to be able to convert it over. You would need a stress/strain curve for compressive strength (most of the available graphs are for tension) but then it should be feasible to convert over to psi.
I'd read about crush gauges before, but until I looked closely at the thumbnail, I'd never seen one before. Don't think I've ever clicked faster than when I realized what I was looking at.
The so-called 'Paris Gun' used the same system to estimate range.
Technically fascinating but militarily ineffective - a bit like the later V2!
This was really interesting content. More of this would be appreciated.
Everyone seems interested in the prospect of seeing this rifle test fired and the copper gauge deformed. I'm simply interested to see how high the hammer price will be on such a rare item
CUP v PSI is like Brix v percentage solids in food processing. It means something consistently, but conversion to other units is futile.
This is very cool, thank you
This makes me think of an old gunsmith i knew. His method of making the hottest loads he could was to keep loading hotter and hotter till the primer would push then he just backed the load down slightly. I was always amazed he never fucked himself up. He may have loaded ammo like an idiot and looked like a troll but he was a good gunsmith.
Well, if something looks stupid but works, it's not stupid
Ian..the "copper crushers" method was always interesting to me.
I wonder how they determined max..by what number?
I don't know what I'm talking about, but that won't stop me from offering an opinion. It seems to me that the reason that you would not be able to convert directly from cup to kpsi isn't because the copper movement is an "indirect measure." After all, all measurements are "indirect" in some fashion or another. I think the issue is that the amount by which the copper moves will not be a function of peak pressure, but rather a function of the amount of time at pressure.
A ductile metal like copper will begin to deform when the stress exceeds a certain critical value called, if memory serves, the "yield stress." After that, it will basically move like a viscous fluid. The copper will continue to deform as long as the pressure remains above the yield stress, so you will get more deformation either by raising the pressure or by sustaining the pressure for longer.
Think about the difference between compressing a spring and squishing a piece of play-doh. Below the yield stress, the copper block acts like a (very stiff) spring. Above the yield stress, it acts like play-doh.
To get a true pressure measurement, you need a transducer that behaves like a spring over the entire pressure range.
EDIT: I was wrong here, but I'm leaving the original for future reference. I explained the error in a reply.
ORIGINAL COMMENT: I think the reason why there's no conversion factor between PSI and CUP was described a bit confusingly here. The actual reason is that CUP is not a linear unit of measure. If you double the pressure, you don't simply double the squish of the copper. It's a much more complicated curve.
There should be a conversion formula between the two, but it won't be a simple 'multiply by x' kind of thing
Would this be a table lookup occasion?
@@LadyAnuB It turns out I was wrong. The CUP _is_ calibrated to be linear, and hence should in theory be linearly related to PSI.
The problem is rather that a short burst of high PSI and a long burst of lower PSI can cause the same crushing effect, which means that the CUP method is based on a kind of 'averaging,' and will not tell you accurately what the true maximum PSI is during firing.
the whole rifle is a test pressure system, very interesting
Hi Ian out of curiosity what would the odds of a video on 22lr be? It’s been around longer then just about anything and has become the world standard for plinking / competition and small game, who made it , what was it originally for and such and of course all the variations-thanks
Doesnt really fit the topic of the channel, almost the opposite really...although I do think it's a good idea.
5:30 - императорский тульский оружейный завод (Imperial weapon factory, Tula).
Ooooo Young’s modulus of copper and deformation energy. Good Engineering topic!!
I realy whant you to visit izhevsk. There is a lot of wired guns
Yeah, Izhevsk or Moscow. There are lots of museums full of weird stuff - prototypes, makeshift firearms, etc
Алекс, так приезжайте, я повожу по музеям со странными пушками) Правда, на концерн Калашников нас не пустят, мы не Ларри Викерс, увы XD
@@OlegOfTheDead у меня друг там работает, так что)
ну алекс начинать
Блиин, тогда чур я с вами, если соберётесь ))
Very informative.
In the literature you often see pressure as in copper crush units. I disagree that it is not a direct method of reading pressure. Each disc I assume is good for only one test. Many people now use transducers and such I believe are still available for sales to individuals. You got me interested enough that I will probably do some research on it. By the way I had a job as part of an environmental team doing clean up work at a former arsenal on the charles river in Massachusetts. While we were there the workmen discovered a couple of rifles stored in some lockers. One was a springfield bolt action fitted with a huge ring of steel over the chamber area. I could not get close enough to see it very well. It went into an armory vault. I suspect it got destroyed and did not make it to a museum but I am not sure.
Hand loaders without pressure transducers frequently will check/measure the bases of fired cartridge cases for signs of pressure. If you get case head expansion and protruded primer cases one had better reduced the powder charge. Here is a brief discussion of rifle pressures: When you look at a loading manual with load data, you will usually see pressure ratings for stated load. Sometimes these are listed in PSI numbers, which most people correctly understand to be Pounds per Square Inch of pressure. However, powder-makers also commonly list pressure in CUP numbers. CUP stands for Copper Unit of Pressure. You may be asking - “What exactly is a CUP, and what is the origin of that unit of measurement?” You may also be wondering - “What’s the difference between CUP pressures and PSI pressures?” On Hodgdon’s Facebook Page, you’ll find answers to these questions. bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2015/04/copper-unit-pressure-defined-by-hodgdon/
Seriously?!?! NO DEMO? HOLY CRAP I kept waiting & waiting & dang it Ian you teaser! Very Cool anyways!
No direct pressure measurement but I bet with some careful preparation you can get a pretty good estimate of pressure.
Man, thats very cool.
Today felt like 6 cooper pressure units in the air
Very cool the unit of squish..... brilliant!!
No test fire ? No result compressed copper ? We'd like to see it in action and the result !
I'd honestly like to see a video about straight bolt vs crooked bolt.
Crooked bolts are a bit slower to use, but allow a scope to be added somewhat more easily. That's about it really.
So now I know thanks to you, sir.
And to measure lower shotgun pressure, they used; lead units of pressure, (LUP)
I haven’t watched the video yet but I know this is gonna be great.
A weaponized hydraulic press? Sign me in!
You mean a pneumatic press-ized weapon
So THAT'S what "CUP" means when I was looking in my uncles old reloading books. *mind blown*
This is going to have a crazy price
That's so cool.
Yeah, but what about the secondary measuring unit, Internal Copper Units of Pressure (I.C.U.P.)?
That’d make one hell of a nutcracker.
MOST INTERESTING !!
Fantastic Czarist engineering. Ivan used to be good at this shit pre1917.
Cant wait to see someone cut the barrel short, epoxy the pressure port closed and drop it in a tapco stock
I just came across your gun smithing channel how come you dont do those type videos anymore? We need more good gun smithing videos like mark from c&r
I wish I could afford this, so that I could design an attachment that uses the hot chamber gases to pop popcorn.
Soooooooo, how much did it sell for?
The bottom of the piston looks to be flat. How does it interface with the chamber and/or cartridge? Does the cartridge extrude itself into a hole? Burst? Be a PITA to extract?
The pressure generated by firing the round flows through the hole acting on the piston which pushes the copper. Nagant chamber pressure is 56,565 psi or 45,900 CUP.
@@rrkeyes3 I understand the concept, I'm curious about the interaction at the base of the piston. An airgap, or poor fit there could cause the case to burst, which would give an impact force on the piston rather than a pressure, skewing results. A case bulging (at least) into the hole could lock up the gun. Maybe I'm missing something - or maybe the piston is a replacement that hasn't been reamed to match the chamber yet - dunno. That's what I'm asking about
That's what I'm thinking as well. The hole would be immediately forward of the casing to avoid fire forming
These were commonly used with pre-drilled cases, very carefully loaded into the chamber so the holes line up. If you didn’t use a drilled case, the cartridge brass being blown up into the cylinder could potentially cause an erroneously low reading by obstructing gas flow.
That’s also a reason why it’s easy to unscrew the whole thing. Before use you must look down the hole to make sure the hole in the cartridge lines up with the hole in the chamber.
That's very interesting, honestly seems like you would get differing results from even just a slight misalignment but I have no experience with them.
Very cool.
And gun jesus did find the garbage rod pleasing and did declare it to be good and worthy, and the peoples of moisin did praise gun jesus for his kindness and they did produce the moisin multitude as a gift unto gun jesus.... Praise be!!!
Praise Be to Gun Jesus, our Lord and Saviour
They saddle taped it!
In addition to C.U.P. there was also L.U.P. (Lead Unit Pressure) for low-pressure cartridges. So, does the wall of the cartridge blow out into the test plug every time a load is tested?
Whoa, whoa, whoa! Take a bone, throw it into this Mosin, add some broth, a potato. Baby, you’ve got a stew going!