Baseball Needs More Sidearm Pitchers
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- Опубликовано: 28 сен 2024
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Would be curious to see the history of sidearm pitchers who had to get tommy John surgery. Wonder if the torque is much different on the elbow or shoulder. Looks like they throw with their core much more compared to a traditional pitcher.
@@TrewlPatrol we mostly use more of the scapular back muscles, core(due to horizontal tilt and torque), and legs
@@shamusgallo3937 do you know if there’s a similar ratio of elbow/shoulder issues that sidearm pitchers experience that are consistent with traditional pitchers?
@@TrewlPatrol Sidearm offers less shoulder impingement because the shoulder tendons are not forcefully stretched (as severely) as with "traditional" pitching and the associated overhead motion.
@@TrewlPatrol I can't speak for everyone, but based on personal experience ik that when you lower your armslot, you are LESS likely to have arm injuries because you would utilize less arm(specifically shoulder muscles) muscles in comparison to an overhander. I have never pitched overhand in my life before and never had any arm problems. Before when I used to throw sidearm, I had a some shoulder soreness but nothing to serious. I am currently a submarine pitcher and never had any arm soreness(just a little bit of arm and scapular tightness right after I pitch). The only soreness I would get would be my legs and hips. Obviously everyone is different, but a big factor of preventing injuries is how you warm up and how hyperflexible an individual can be.
As a natural side armer myself, I never understood the pains of shoulder stuff. It was my elbow that might get sore though. Then later as got to my senior year of high school, I decided to teach myself to pitch a more over hand traditional pitch motion, and there came shoulder pains.
I threw 3/4 as a lefty I never threw hard I topped out upper 80’s, I never got any shoulder or elbow pains, my body was conditioned to throw 95 pitches in game every 3 days, I only got pain in my shoulder junior year because I tore my rotator cuff in the gym because someone hit me while I was doing shoulder press. I was always healthy, I had a great pregame and postgame routine to help. It’s all about getting your body use to throwing large amounts
Exactly what I was thinking. Side arm is a much more natural motion. I see no reason to go overhead other than a matter of style. All the cool kids do it, so that's what I'll go with.
I throw submarine/sidearm, only pain i feel near my elbow is my bicep tendon, most is in the shoulder🤷
I was a 3/4 left and got elbow pain no shoulder..
Yeah I find that I tend to like pull my elbown down as I throw sidearm, thats probably where the elbow/bicep pain is coming from.
side note; Quiz was a "visiting coach" for my college team. He would come during our fall "season". For such a small college (maybe 300 students) to have him volunteer to help us was crazy cool. This was in the early 80s while he was in the Royals system. What he taught us about hitting from a pitcher's perspective helped me graduate from small ball to a larger U team...When he blew up later on, we all could not believe a guy at that talent level was volunteering to help coach small school teams. I've always wondered how many big leaguers do that sort of thing.
we may not throw gas but we sure confuse tf out of hitters lol
Amen brother 😂
I would pull your shit 450ft deep 🤷🏼♂️
I never faced a sub pitcher in real life, but on the Show I'm pretty sure I have less than .100 batting average against them
@@Magucci13 lol
@@Magucci13 I fuck people up with my sidearm guys. You just can’t read them for shit.
I remember playing MVP Baseball 2004 as a kid and trading for Bradford, Kim, and Wakefield... because I didn't want to have to hit against them EVER again. The angle messed with me so badly.
In high school, I was an adequate pitcher, at best. After my junior year in HS, I went to BYU baseball camp. One of the pitching coaches, Rod Poteete watched me throw and said I had a natural sidearm-like approach with my mechanics. It didn’t come easy, but I eventually learned how to throw a really good slider to go with a fastball and a subpar change up. I never threw harder than 80mph, but my senior season was the most fun I ever had playing baseball. I was able to walk on to a juco (Dixie College) and then transferred to Southern Utah Univ, which was a D1 program. I got absolutely hammered at SUU, but I played :) This never would’ve happened if I hadn’t dropped down.
glad you made it work, good way to look back and tell yourself sacrifice pays off.
You threw all your pitches sidearm? Or you threw some regular? Is it possible to do both?
"Bye you baseball camp"
great story man and glad you appreciated it for what it was!
@@nofurtherwest3474 I pretty much always dropped down on everything unless it was a pick off, a pitch out or a grounding back to me and turning 2.
When I was a young ball player and was given the chance to pitch during a practice I automatically went to the mound and third base. I could throw sidearm and regular overhand. When I started throwing sidearm the next practice coach was like Hell No and my Dad stepped in and told him O Hell Yes, He’ll pitch any way he wants. I remember pitching against these other teams throwing sidearm and the batters stepping out of the box while the pitch was well on its way and their coach yelling at them to stay in the damn box! Lol,,,, those were the good ole days!
Did you throw both sidearm and overhand in the same at-bat?
As an A's fan I loved the early 2000's at one point there were 2 submariner pitchers on the roster at the same time.
Love watching those guys.
I made my college pitching debut yesterday after finally switching to side arm junior year. I’m glad this weird throwing style is getting the attention it deserves.
Can you pitch both overhand and side arm in the same at-bat/inning? why or why not?
@@nofurtherwest3474 I used to switch back and forth during an at bat. However, I started to have some serious arm problems while pitching overhand, so I went full sidearm. I also have more control, movement and surprisingly velocity from the side.
@@austint7675 Interesting thanks. But from a batter's perspective would that be harder to hit if a pitcher did both?
@@nofurtherwest3474 sidearm would induce a lot of ground balls if I would switch to it mid ab. It’s a good idea to have in your repertoire if you want to mess with the batter.
@@austint7675 thanks. i'm just wondering if it's something to have my kid learn.
There seems to be a trend that sidearmers make their debuts when they are in their late 20's. I wonder if the extra development time also puts teams off.
Often, these guys sit in the minors for ages and a lot of them were traditional pitchers who switched to side arm in an effort to have another shot at the bigs.
Eichorn was a sub-par pitcher before switching during his career, and so often these guys already seem like lost causes to scouts. It doesn’t help that none of them throw heat, and so scouts are basically banking on their control to get it by batters.
I’d like to know why this is too. Great thoughts
Of course the greatest side arm pitcher of all is the greatest pitcher of all-Walter Johnson. Johnson threw sidearm, but with speed. There is a film on RUclips of Johnson, post-playing career, as manager of the Senators, putting his pitchers through their paces, and you get to see his own delivery as well as that of Ad Liska, who was a pure submariner. The film is from around 1930.
Tim Hill? I know he doesn't go super low, but I love that leg kick at the end of his delivery
I think a big issue is that pitching coaches don't like people that they have little understanding of their mechanics or how to help them
Seemingly many of them need very little help though
You should imo make an overview video for pitchers,a meta video so to speak ,of tricks to stay in the league
Improve spin rate
Doc Wolforth teaching velocity seemingly
" Effective velocity "
Knuckleballs
Screwballs
Pitch sidearm/submarine
Sure I'm missing several
MVP machine by Sawchik is a great resource, Bauer is a butthead if a human ,but he was so unathletic as a young man him making MLB at all ,much less dominating it is an incredible feat , just a crazy longshot
Thanks again for the great content as of late
To be fair to Joe Smith his postseason ERA would be below 1.0 if not for one appearance where he got lit up. The other 13 games he was pretty much lights out.
Shunsuke Watanabe pitched from an angle so low he would drag his right knee on the ground during his delivery. He would keep a pad on his knee under his uniform to prevent it from bleeding.
It's such a cool throwing motion
Don't forget that guy who pitched with the Senators way back when. What was his name again? Oh yeah, Walter Johnson. His sidearm fastball was unhittable.
I'm a 3/4 - side arm pitcher. It's fun to watch people struggle with the change up! Make the righties golf and make the lefties swing high. It's an awesome strategy! My favorite to watch growing up in the 80's and 90's was my hometown team's Bob Tewksbury! He made batters look silly at the plate!
I use to throw upper 80's normally and did an arm injury. A coach recommended submarine and gave it a crack and had alot of success with it 10 years ago and it was fun!! My arm injury is now gone and have gone back to throwing conventional, I am old now so no longer throw hard and I get lit up like a Christmas tree. I am convinced to go back to submarine.
I modeled my delivery off of Walter Johnson after seeing him on HBO's "when it was a game." My left foot stepped out and my right foot came forward and carried the rest of my body with it in sequential motion, compounding the force. Was throwing 75 at 13 with pinpoint control. Never even had a sore arm. In HS my coaches made me throw overhand. I was below average, got benched, and quit baseball. I could have used a sidearm mentor back then.
Kent Tekulve was always a blast to watch!
Nice Video Even though sidearmers and submariners seem like a gimmick or fad you can say the same for knuckleballers or guys with a weird wind-up, they are an attraction until they are exposed and then become pigeon holed either for the good like any other player trying to make it or for the bad making them even more open for failure, this is why they are rare and cool
My 14yr old son faced a sidearm pitcher (HS Sr D1 commit) 85-87mph and that stuff was NASTY. It is a very good 16U team and we got no hit. My son almost got a bloop single to right and we had two hard contacts. His ball moved all over the place.
Brad Ziegler graduated from the same high school I graduated from! He was a good sidearm submarine style pitcher
O'Day should be a hall of famer. He dominated for a decade plus
A few years I started, did long relief, and short relief.
If I started I threw more overhand. If I short relieved I threw more side arm.
I’ve always thought this should be the default way to throw a pitch. Not only does it appear to rise before breaking but any break is gonna appear near when it naturally starts dropping
I switched to pitching sidearm and honestly I think it puts less stress on your arm than over the top. Look at Jamie Arnold at FSU baseball. ERA leader so far this year and is going 110 pitches into games
In high school I was a complete submarine pitcher. It was crazy how much guys were thrown off seeing Nestor Cortez moves with a weird angle
Kent was pitching when I was a kid and we wanted to mimic him. Our coaches said we cant practice that pitching at our age because we could get hurt so it was a no go trying to be like Kent
It was a great video but you gotta mention Jimmy Herget! He’s been a great closer for the Angels and he’s doing great as a sidearmer
a release angle at the knee or below is a submarine pitcher
Itd be cool and also terrifying to see a sidearmer/submarine pitcher that throws heat. Imagine trying to time up 98 from that release point lol
Fun fact over hand or as we call it now traditional pitching was actually banned until 1890 in baseball so until then everyone pitched like this
From an Orioles fan's perspective, Darren O'Day was a weapon outta the bullpen during our little run under Buck Showalter.
Dan Quisenberry was my childhood favorite player in the 80s
I loved Darren O'Day on the Rangers
I love submarine style aka shoe top style pitchers
100 saves and 100 complete games is just insane
Also a shout out to The Unit: Randy Johnson.Side arm pitcher. He had control issues over hand, went under hand in the minors and eventually had just shy of 5,000 strike outs lifetime.
Pat neshek??
Sidearms are great. Get a few to mix the speeds and versatile pitchers with fastball, change, curve.
Look up the stats of Kenny long. Former hurler in the Astros org. Damn shame he never got at lease a cup of tea.
I’d like to add Mychal Givens to the list although he was a converted infielder.
Has a major leaguer ever been a sidearm or submariner who threw knuckle balls? I can imagine that would be pretty interesting to see.
I throw sub and have tried. It doesn't get nearly enough velocity to break the way you want without spin. Side arms really really depend on spin, without it, it's just a slow pitch.
I tossed a submarine Forkball which mimicked a Knuckleball but it was a nightmare to control. When thrown right it was unhitable and I could still keep the velocity similar to a change up - problem is every coach had never seen anyone throw it and usually discouraged me using it for my arm's sake. (Also after I broke my Dad's toe with a particular nasty one while playing catch he wasn't a fan of me throwing it either😂)
I'm a casual, as casual as casual can be. I JUST found out about Shohei Ohtani in 2023 which is insane. Do the diehard fans think baseball would be watered down if it was promoted more aggressively? The sport has great talent but us outsiders rarely hear about them. I'm not trying to change baseball, but it's better than most people think, it's just not promoted like the UFC, NFL or NBA. Please don't shit on me, I don't know what I don't know, so I came here to learn from the experts. 👍🏾
Frankly, it's just poor marketing, but it seems (even through you seeing this video) that it's coming around a bit! Have a great day!
who cares
When i coached youth ball i always preached placement over power. i never cared how hard someone could throw if they could hit spots and tie up hitters with good placement and force hitters to swing id take that over gas.
Do not forget the ultimate side armed pitcher of all times.
WALTER JOHNSON -- AKA "big train"
The man was clocked in an army base, with an average speed at home plate of 83 MPH. If measured by modern Radar, the pitches would register at 94 to 95 MPH. He was throwing in a suit on flat ground with dress shoes.
Put that man on a mound with Cleats, and it's 97-99 MPH side armed !!!!! Now try hitting that!!!!
400+ wins and ERA's in the low 2's and middle 1's. Now you see why that guy dominated so much. Ty Cobb, the first man to 4000 hits, and with a lifetime BA of .366 said "I couldn't touch him, none of us could... The first time we faced him, we realized we'd witnessed the most dangerous arm ever unleashed on a baseball field"
How about a pitcher like Nestor Cortes where instead of altering the timing of his windup, he has a flexible windup that can be over, side, or under arm.
I once threw an inning overhand and my team made like 7 errors with 0 outs so I started throwing side arm and I struck out the following 3 batters in an immaculate 9 pitches
I’ve naturally thrown sidearm idk why or how but I js do and my coach calls me frisbee dan bc it’s hella noticeable but it gets the job done when I’m pitching, I confuse hitters all the time😂
when do we classify it as sidearm or submarine at what angle
Finally some love for joe Smith
I naturally throw sidearm but i (being a idiot) started forcing myself to throw overhand partially because I couldn’t find many videos for sidearm pitches but also because of the stigma that throwing sidearm is wrong and weird which is one of the stupidest mistakes I have ever made because I giving my self muscle cramp back pain and even tore a muscle. If anyone can suggest any videos I would appreciate that so I can not completely fuck up my arm and start pitching better
Overhand pitching was actually banned until 1890 so this used up to be the normal
There’s a SIGNIFICANT lack of Pat Neshek in this video.
no mention of Pat Neshek?
Love your channel
That true submarine release point is so hard to hit. And I truly believe some softball pitchers could learn to embarrass big league hitters. If they let them. Mike Eichorn was fun to watch. They were all fun to watch. Get low.
I was naturally one as a kid but had shit coaches that made me stop bc “it wasn’t natural”
I aspire to be a submarine pitcher because I’m not that athletic, I’m decent, more mediocre than bad, but I like underarm because it’s fun unique and decently easy. IM NOT saying it’s really easy but it’s easier to pitch underarm than overhand because nobody can read it
Dude I get your point but bro you need to watch more Giants games. Tyler Rogers is coming off of his worst year yet. He has absolutely zero placement control and every time he went in for us it would be a game where we were already up big, or down big and he would still manage to find a way to make it close if we were up. Just to be clear too, last year his era was 3.5, and his W/L rate was 3-4. From the 2021 season to the 2022 season damn near every single one of his stats got worse. He might have interesting mechanics but that dude is terrible. I hope he can make it work for us this year but last year was really, really bad.
You should put together a drop 3rd strike single compilation
Justin lawrence is throwing 100 from sidearm delivery. Suprised he didnt get a mention.
What I want to see is a submarine knuckleballer. Has there ever been one?
Where does Randy Johnson fit in this category?
Actually i like this pitching style cuz it's so unique and sometime it could confuse the batter.
Just read title already gave it a like and click I totally agree
No Neshek? Or Mike Myers, the rare lefty submariner?
Google AI generated shows “Kenta Colby”
I was like “who?!”
Blue Jays Adam Cimber is great at this.
Saberhagen was a beast
Part of the effectiveness comes from not that many pitchers throwing like this.....
I promise I’ll make it bro. I’ll make you proud. I throw sidearm because I broke my pinkie. Now you might think “how tf did a pinkie being broke cause this” well I broke it so bad I got a cast that went down to my elbow 😁. I’ve tried to throw normally but I can’t. And I throw it 80mph constantly and I’m only a freshman. The only bad thing about me is that I’m just now coming back from a 3 year break 💀. But I promise I’ll make it. Trust. But I might not be a pitcher. I’m a catcher. I switch around. It’s a 50/50 split. I like pitcher tho and there’s no knee pain. (My knees hurt so fucking bad as a catcher)
I threw a one hit 12k game the week after my uncle , said I look like an idiot throwing side arm .
My team metro energy hadn't won a game in 3 years , it was my first year in little league .
Then we recruited a 15 yo who hit everything, had like a .570 average , 22 hrs in 20 games
Video game numbers
No mention of the late Steve Olin?
Sidearm I call it submarine style it’s a very confusing for hitters
No Bret saberhagen? He had a submarine knuckler
I was never a good hitter but i faced 2 of these style pitchers in highschool. Had me looking stupid
My RTTS pitcher carries on the legacy
D Quiz baby! RIP
I have the worst arm pain in my 20s as a result of being taught to throw sidearm as a youth
If a guy who could throw 100 mph overhand, how fast could they throw side or under?
Left hand sidewinders, please
The thumbnail made me think it was a submarine pitcher
I don't think there's ever been a sidearm starting pitcher in MLB, I'm pretty sure they've all been relievers. The reason for this could be that the essence of the sidearm pitcher is deception, and if major league hitters faced a sidearm pitcher as a starter (more ABs against them I mean), then that deception would be gone and the sidearm pitcher would get hit harder.
Randy Johnson
O'Day was the man for the Orioles. Pure Cinderella story.
I mainly pitched over shoulder, but I would sometimes throw sidearm. I never threw at 3/4. I passed up college for the Army. I had a weird arsenal. Including a knuckler and screwball. My arsenal was a 2 seam, changeup, curve, knuckle and screwball. I learned to throw a slider, but never really used it.
The thumbnail is a submarine pitcher
Rogers is Nasty. You can't hit that rising slider.
These pitchers mess me up in road to the show 😂 they way the ball comes out and moves across the zone is bamboozle af
Wouldn't more sidearm pitchers just serve to give hitters more chances to see them and learn how to hit them?
Maybe I’m in the minority, but seeing a sidearmer come out of the pen and walk 3 guys on non competitive sliders outside of the zone is not my cup of tea.
More traditional relievers can have their problems too, but there’s something particularly ugly about a sidearm pitcher who can’t find the zone.
No Pat Neshek love?
Don’t worry I’ll be there in a few years
Starting off absolutely demolishing kent
I started throwing sidearm because i realized i could throw breaking balls in little league without the umps realizing it
there is limited space for such players and so there value is shown
One day we'll see a 95+ submariner n he's gonna be nasty
How in the world did you not include Mike Myers?