Highest of the top tier players don't want to rely on healers Average dps players don't want to worry about rotating defensives as if they're playing a damn tank and prefer to just defer to healers Healers shouldnt be dps DPS shouldn't be tanks And tanks shouldn't be gods
I think people have forgotten the REASON for healers optimizing damage. In Mythic/Time Trialed content the DPS/Healing checks are so tight that EVEN the Healers need to contribute in order to reach the required numbers in time. This stays true in M+ throughout the tier as keys get higher. Mythic raid on the other hand falls off in this regard as people gear up and blizzard nerfs the raid. If you're a casual healer no ones asking you to do 100k+ every pull while orange parsing HPS.... People need to chill out. Healers already have barebones DPS kits as is what exactly are people hoping for? To remove all damage abilities? x'D
@burgers5675 "Average dps players don't want to worry about rotating defensives as if they're playing a damn tank and prefer to just defer to healers" "Healers shouldnt be dps" If you don't want healers to dps, then there will be constant incoming damage, keeping healers busy, which means the DPS and tanks will rely on the healers completly to stay alive. If you get a healer that's sub-par? Too bad, your key is depleted. You're just switching the responsibility of staying alive from "yourself + healer" to "just the healer". If anything, this will make the experience even more frustrating.
Healers shouldnt be dps DPS shouldn't be tanks And tanks shouldn't be gods None of those are requirements. You can easily do heroic dungeons without ever having to press a defensive as a DPS, or without ever having to DPS as a healer. They do, however, show mastery over your spec. And if a player isnt willing to press an extra button to circumvent mechanics - then maybe this isnt the game for them.
As a multiclass healer since TBC I personally despise having to dps. It was fun having “tank healers” and “raid healers” roles, strategizing and switching between different fights and different phases.
You're right about people wanting to be carried. I've joined keys where people wouldn't select the people who could do the key and needed the gear, but they would select the people that massively out gear the key. Personally, I try and pick people who have a similar gear score to myself so that the group is somewhat equal when it comes to gear score. For me there is no fun in being carried.
That’s not a blizzard problem it’s a community problem. I blast keys, I don’t really care what IO I invite because I can carry an 8 whenever I wanted. That being said if I join a key and see the entire group completely ignores mechanics. I just leave. I don’t have time for doing every mechanic and doing all of the work. I can carry the key 90% of the time. But if I don’t time, only getting 5 aspects sucks. So I just leave. Easy solution is to just make sure you still get loot & aspects at the end, and not deplete the key. This would stop people like me from doing this, and make it easier for people to get into +. These two dudes talking have no idea what they’re really talking about tbh tho.
^This. Stop trying to make healing a gimmicky mini-game. I just want to target someone and heal them or apply an AOE heal, etc. Oh and give me plenty of mana. There are enough things generally that I need to worry about. Not standing in fire, etc. 😂
Its not just a healer problem. WOW as a whole has a problem that player characters were robbed of agency and interaction with encounter design, to be replaced with extra action buttons and generic boss mechanics. The healer issue stems from the fact that encounter design is no longer about survival and character synergy, but rather not standing in instant death 1 shot void zones while an immortal tank generates infinite threat while taking zero damage from anything that isn't designed to kill tanks, while DPS either takes zero damage or gets one shot by a mechanic that was likely 100% avoidable by not standing in the wrong place at the wrong time. Because of this healers are designed around mechanics made to make healers mandatory, just like how the only reason tanks are a role is because non-tanks get oneshot by any mob designated as a 'boss' monster's basic attack, while tanks just brush it off because they have a spec that has a blue shield instead of a red sword, not because of actual class mechanics that engage with the boss's design, such as using shield block on a warrior to get over 100% avoidance to negate debuff based auto attack mechanics like illidans shear in TBC or bear tanks stacking insane stamina to soak a mechanic that would otherwise oneshot another class including other tanks
Just nerf defensives and DPS healing by 75% across the board then remove certain abilities later if necessary, then nerf enemy damage greatly. Everything on Beta is wrecking people. I'm a DPS and doing a defensive rotation on a TANK (I'm not even good at) is less stressful in the same content. It feels like a survival game and the focus is on living more than anything. Defensive usage used to be really rewarding and the payoff was the healer got to do damage or triage other players better who didn't have a defensive up or weren't tanky defensively. Now it's you're just not killed if you execute your defensive rotation well. They took the reward of using defensives well and flipped it on it's head. I'm tired of the next mechanic killing me even through defensives if I'm not 100% hp.
It’s new content, it’s supposed to be challenging. Enjoy it while it lasts because the WAs and the pathing will take all the excitement and wanderlust away by week 2.
@@Mmrraazz Ive gotten KSM in Shadowlands and DF as a tank, and only healer/dps in BFA. DF has had the best iteration of M+ and its only looking better. Youre asking for a nerf of defensives for 75%, that is a wild take. Why even have defensives then? People cant be pressed to push an extra button to circumvent a mechanic? Or utilize stomps/interrupt rotations? If you dont want to push keys, play at the level appropriate for you, no one is pressuring you to climb higher than your skill matches.
When mana levels were normalized, Healing in Wow became less fun. The old mana system allowed for increasing/scaling mana costs, now they have to balance it around the mana cap, and it makes it rough without punishing some healers.
@@arcadema Yeah, I had a healer in a dungeon once in FF14 so stuck in the mindset that healers should DPS, that he refused to heal at all. Even though our tank couldn't handle it, and we wiped. And still he refused to heal. We ended up kicking him lol. You can't apply this kind of thinking to a beginner tank, or a casual player.
XIV needs more consistent damage. Too much of the regular damage is wrapped up in the AoEs and Tankbusters. There needs to be more chip damage so healers actually have to heal people so they can be ready for the chunk damage.
@@frostmagemarii FFXIV's cardinal issue is that the encounters are fully scripted and predictable from start to finish which will always render healing in that game unfun (to me, at least) no amount of consistent damage can change the fact that the encounter design is so predictable that you can literally memorise which healing abilities to use at which point and it will ALWAYS work with 100% certainty.
And then you have the other cases, the people who call out healers to do more and DPS and literally call healers lazy if they don't manage do x amount of DPS, it's like, in M+ especially S3 and S4 people need to be constantly topped up otherwise they are will very likely be dead even especially if they don't use their defensive CDs, most don't, even at 14 (DF S4s) key level. When that happens you take avoidable damage, you are forcing the healer to basically heal more than they would otherwise, you are causing them to waste time which is crucial to the following things: not be able to DPS AT ALL in that time window which they need to save you, waste mana and threaten another player's life which might also be needed from taking unavoidable damage healing as well (including theirs) or they might die as well and then you probably all wipe so this is the stupid part which if i am a healer and you want me to DPS you must expect me to have less chance to react to clutch healing requirements because 1 their randomness due to skill issues of other players which is tied to and design around personal defensives to survive and 2 because f'ing GCD is a think you keep forgetting that it exists most often because what you are so used to do around it is your own thing/class, tanking or DPS, which is almost never related to a person dying directly or even as much as a healers heal is and even a healer who can do both things at the same time (for a limiter time), like MW and Disc Priest via their "maintenance" (through dealing damage) type of healing, can keep people alive simply because it's just designed to not be enough to do so (kinda feels pointless now that i say it like this because mostly, it is and a lot of it is overhealing especially for MW can mean at times, wasted GCDs), so it's either healing or DPS that you will be f'ing getting and if you don't like it either l2p under the rules of the current design or go play something else because the healers are not at fault for this type of design, Blizzard is, so if you have a problem with that, ask them why they are using the current design which is fundamentally, flawed, in the sense that it only works for the top % as this is what it is designed to target for and the looseness in between is what muddies the waters and it's what is allowed from scaling, there to fill the gaps for less skilled players until they get out-scaled by the level of M+ difficulty they are targeting compared to their ilvl and personal performance via it, same is for a healer and that's the main problem not the healers or their amount of DPS.
It's an annoying topic per se. Where am I atm? I'm at the eff PvE stage. The player base that's not healer is starting to look at your healer as a pain in the ass, we get no love and all the blame. I switched to FF 14 a few years back and saw how it goes down there. Healers DPS which I do anyway so that seemed to go down well and WoW irritates me already on the PvE side because if that weekly pops up for 4 mythic dungs nobody even wants a healer. Soooo what have I done , in essence I have withdrawn my labour and wrote off PvE. Class changes are annoying but it's everyone who gets it..This is different, we have a huge part of the base that in essence is trying to write us out. Or, yeah we want you now because we need you to win but will force you to play your game the way we like it. You're messing with the whole synergy of the game here. Tanks tank, dps dps..yeah but you healers are letting us down. What? Okay do the dung on your own or use NPC party and before you know it half the base is playing an MMO alone and may even not want to go back to a traditional party set up because the other 4 expect them to save their lives WHEN THEY MESS UP but also do a triple salchow double toe loop on damage and force them into a DPS role and not even the fundamentals of their class anymore.. Making your standard healer who wants to just play their natural role become disassociated from the rest of the player base and surplus except in special cases There won't be much laughing when Healers are like no , f the rest of the base I'm playing my OWN GAME from now on and not their stupid hybrid beat me in DPS dick waving party runs. Which will equate to long wait times for when a true healer spec is really required.
Look even if my team doesn't take dmg I WON'T do dps. Isn't there enough dps to complete the key on time? Not my problem, that's the main dps responsibility, not mine so I'll continue watching a movie, anime or something else in the meantime.
The easy fix is more slow drain damage that can't be reduced by cds to challenge healers, and the spike damage that exists should be less frequent, telegraphed (or avoidable by stops), and susceptible to cd damage reduction for skill expression by players.
People in general don't know what they want... so this is why game designers should know what they are doing based on experience.... but in this world, where HR thinks everyone can be anything everyone is just clueless what to do....
Been healing since wrath and my preferred style of healing was the end of BFA and shadowlands. Dragonflight was pretty horrendous as far as healing goes. Season 1 made me feel pretty weak. There were points where a tanks off heals were more powerful and capable of topping people easier than the strongest heals a dedicated healer could muster, this was not good. I don’t particularly like weak feeling healing where it takes ages to top people. I’d prefer just having a fun dps rotation with healing when required and supporting the team in other ways than just slowly trickle healing the group..
The timer is cancer and as long as Titan Rune: Whatever doesn't add timers to Cata classic, I'll most likely be fine with whatever they come up with. I also don't know for sure they're doing alphas at all again; we'll see.
Since like Wrath, I've been playing Warlock. As a Warlock I have a lot of self-healing or damage mitigation. I try to be the one that needs to get healed the least by the Healers, So they can pay attention to the Tanks and other people more than me. When I use to raid more often, I was almost always the least healed person in the raid, largely because by damage mitigation was good enough so the Healers would either only need to throw a HoT on me every once in a while, or I knew well enough to step into a healing circle when needed. Healthstone helps a little as well if there is a heavy raid wide hit so the Healer can get the Tanks. Tanks die, we all die. I die, well maybe the rest of them can dps the thing down. (I've emergency tanked if the boss is like at 1% with Voidwalker. I don't work all the time, but every once in a while we down the Boss even if we have a Voidwalker tank for 20 seconds).
our Demo stands in all the mechanics, claiming that he doesnt need to avoid damage bc of his massive HP pool. we rag on him for making our healers have heart attacks lol
I've been healing since the original SSC, and for boss encounters especially, variety is the flesh and blood of enjoying healing. I think pulling out at least two or three different healing 'issues' per fight isn't too much to ask for these days. Triage healing, heavy DoTs, throughput pumping, etc; there's plenty that game developers can throw into an 8-14 minute encounter to make it engaging for healers and not completely fatal when defensives are on CD. Fights like Tsulong from MoP or Hydross the Unstable from BC were a good start. DPS and Healers had to coordinate with eachother to make it happen and not just whine that one side or the other wasn't doing enough or felt useless. How about making it so a players damage in an encounter could get buffed the higher their % of hp was above a certain % but they keep taking damage while rolling through gcds? Or Overhealing charged other player's defensives in positive ways? It's not just that there's a perceived notion that healing isn't needed/wanted, but a hard fact that other than keeping green bars green or removing debuffs there's not enough synergy between the classes.
I only wanna do dps as a dps player and have 1 defensive at most for mechanics that are designed around needing defensive. I absolutely want healers because I don't ever wanna worry about surviving.
I miss having to cc certain mobs and had to kinda think about what was happening. Also what happend to certain dps being super squishy cuz they had the best dps
There is 10x more CC in M+ than any dungeon in the past. The difference is you are cc'ing the mobs with kicks and stops, not standing around for 3 minutes marking what to sheep.
@keithb6344 yea that's not cc that's just running a rotation with kicks and stuns..my point I'd people had roles and specialities.. now it's just an aoe shit fest
@keithb6344 everyone does every thing... imagine not wanting or needing a healer.. ripping the soul right out of the game. Is wow an arpg.. because the more time goes on it seems to be assuming that roll
What if you make class defensives cost more damage time(like having to bandage) so the loss of dps will make teams rely more on the healer instead. Idk 🤷🏼♂️
Dangerous waters here. What we have is a major section of players ie DPS thinking they should have a loud voice in how healers play and are made to play. If all the healers start piping up and saying remove DPS defensive CD's that will of course be outrageous.
I've always been puzzled that they don't take more specs in the damage-to-heal direction like they established in disc and post-Cata paladin. Maybe (definitely) I'm biased as that's a play pattern I actually enjoy more than the raid frame whack-a-mole, but aligning the support and DPS would seem to make more sense and be more fun. There are a few nods to this in other specs- acid rain on shaman, bouncing living flames, etc- but it's a direction I wish they'd push more.
So if it's too hard to rebalance everything to remove all the multitude of defenses. Wouldn't it be worth considering just reducing the effective windows for the active defenses. I mean something as simple as for example astral shift has a 12 second effectiveness. Reduce it to say 8. That or just reduce the effectiveness but keep the duration. I like that people have buttons to press, but 12 seconds seems like a long time for active Dr on top of all the passive Dr
It's easy to do, scale defensives like they do for healer cooldowns in different settings. Solo content, delves, etc keep them as they are. Raids, m+, etc make them scale down. Instead of a 20% DR make it 5% or something where it's a nice little bonus, but that's it
What if they took tank defensives and changed them from reducing damage, to something like -- for the next 12 seconds, 50% of direct damage is taken over 3 seconds. Which does reduce damage, while also giving the healers time to heal.
Easy solution, Nerf tanks self healing and make it the job of the healer to help keep the tank up. Tank self sustain is way too high right now. Shift some of the tank survivability to actually needing heals from healers and re balance the dungeon around that.
I tanked a s4 m+2 on my Pally. Healer died to trash and was dead for every boss fight. I self healed the entire dungeon. I can see groups wanting 4 dps and no healer. it's doable but shouldn't be.
There's a reason The Raging Tempest in Nok was my favourite dungeon boss to heal in DF. The storm mechanic succeeds at doing exactly what blizzard needs to do IMO to fix the issue. You prepare for the damage, you take several smaller chunks of damage, you play arond an interesting arena that presents positioning as an important factor. I play pres. I have to run loops to reach everyone OR the group has to be well coordinated enough to all stand on the same side for the storm then move back. IT IS FUN. The bosses in revamped DF Uldaman weren't as fun to me, but they were also successful at bridging the gap imo.
Blizzard just needs to have the balls to something different about healers, which is, if they don't want to fundamentally change the top % design, just reward the DPS with short lasting damage bonus IF they use a defensive tools at the right time, virtually every min-maxer or even the most fake macho attitude like DPS will wanna press their defensive when they should and will learn to do so just so they can brag about their DPS meters, one stone, two birds solution, AND it also solves the possible issue of pressing it whenever just to get bonus damage, simply because, you, as Blizzard can code it to tie the effect of the damage reduction to triggered the damage bonus so they only get it when they use it properly, and if you wanna scale it up, connect the rations of the damage reduced plus or minus whatever you wanna balance that value around in relationship to the bonus gained, you can still do that as well, you just have to have the balls to do it, don't make healers weaker, we hate being weak, we don't like it if we can't save lives, we don't play the game otherwise, it's that high of how binary it is on the scale. Edit and by the way this doesn't even affect the top % design at all, it actually improves it, if done right.
What if it was like 2 separate games? Picture this there are the DPS and they have their defensives (Except druids...) and they get to press them to stop damage and mitigate but they add Heal absorb mechanic and or more "stagger mechs" or bleeds and if I don't heal off the absorb shield enough it will damage them or damage them and nearby players? maybe its caster mobs in dungeons do it now or maybe it's a Key thing.... and you have 2-3 absorbs rolling and 1 bleed you heal 1 of the absorbs and 1/2 of the other and the whole bleed. If the absorb expires damage split around players in 5 yards if the bleed isn't healed it drops a pool that can heal 5% of one monsters HP.
Thing is, I don't see anything wrong with having the defensives it shows skill and if by using them it means you survive, then great! Reduce the spike damage and slow the pace of damage, i.e. remove alot of the "extra" damage that comes from bosses to slow the pace down
I think every class has a way of getting their health back during solo play but when it comes to group content we seem to rely on 1 extra person to heal all of us. What if you have a group of hybrids doing some content like m+ where it's no ones job to heal but then every now and then you're throwing out some heal to yourself or another person on your team. The upside to this is more damage done by the group but a downside could be where 2 players then go to heal the same person.
In the current state, DPS and healer needs more love in defense, not damage/HPS. DPS shouldn’t be punished with death for not having a defense CD on every single mechanic.
All of these problems are caused by one game mode: M+ , all the other modes work. Blizzard should not change their entire game because of high M+ keys (which 95% of players don't do). You get to a point, in higher keys- that you almost can't heal because mobs are hitting so hard. If you try to heal through it- they will burn you. You need to burn them, before they burn you. So more dps is the answer. That is part of strategizing higher keys- healing, and the game aren't broken. It is just one fraction of a single game mode.
My English is very decent, but often I Just don't understand a whole sentence of Matt. I know he is smart and has a lot to say but if you can improve one thing, it's that for me. Else good content and talks ❤
People who call themselves healers, doesn't use monk as a fistweaver and also love to do dmg: you're not a healer, you're a frustrated dps who's a wanna-be healer. People complaining about class fantasy and throwing all the blame to a "lack of talent trees" when in reality this problem is the main reason that "class fantasy" has been eroded. WoW foundations were the holy triforce of tank, dps and healer and that's how it should have stayed, you feel bored healing cus the tip of your fingers itches? Then healer is mostly not a role for you, plain and simple. Raiding was more enjoyable when you actually planned which healer to bring based on what each one had to offer, it was a more strategic activity than just "which one is the broken one atm". Wanna have massive shielding? Bring a pally, wanna have raw healing? Bring an hpriest, your tank is like wet paper and struggles to survive a fight? Bring a dpriest, want something to fill in the gaps the hpriest can't heal? Bring a druid or a shamy.
If you’re not planning your healer groups in today’s content you’re not playing the game correctly. Did you also forget to mention disc priest? Or paladin? There are plenty of healers aside from monk who dps as part of their healing.
"WoW foundations were the holy triforce of tank, dps and healer and that's how it should have stayed" Uh no? WoW's foundation was that your role would be dictated by your class. Like older MMOs, you had tank, secondary tank, target dps, AoE dps, healer, shielder, controller, kiter, support, buffers, debuffers, jack-of-all-trade, combinations of all that, etc, and it's only in 40-man raids that some of these roles were broken. The reason why people are frustrated nowadays is because they know in their heart that this is what they wanted out of the game. Not everyone wants to play Mercy. Some want to play Zenyatta.
Easy: stop focusing everything on damage. Healers should *not* be forced to do damage, they should be focused on healing, on mitigating damage, on purging, dispelling and other utilities needed. The existence of some sort of a self heal on literary every class and every spec is not IMHO viable. A dps should not have so many abilities that mitigate damage. Warriors should have only victory rush, and that's a strong maybe. Mages have conjure food/water, which are insanely underused in open world. Classes that do have abilities to self heal should still have them, but potentially their self heals, when doing roles that aren't healing, should be toned down. The only exception are DKs due to their class fantasy. Paladins have a myriad of self healing spells that they can utilize, but they are a holy class. Druids have a resto spec and have healing spell in their toolkit. There is absolutely no reason why DHs have a self healing spell, they use fel magic which is antithetical to healing. Etc. These should all be tuned, healers should matter but not in a way where they're forced out of their primary role. I stopped healing after BfA because of the insane pressure of doing constant DPS in addition to healing the group.
Honestly, they need to punch open their game design and this whole "holy trinity" thing. THere are games that are not so hard core about the whole healing thing that do great. Tanks can be supplemented or enhanced by controller specific players, DPS the same from augmenting classes, Healers need defensive support. The dev team in the past is so scared to break up that "holy trinity". Imagine a Disc priest throwing a round almost no heals and instead bubbling to give even bigger effective health. Monks being able to increase resistances dramatically of their team mates so they can just pop a self heal to be fine. Hell, Shadow priests can reduce the accuracy of enemies. Even bosses.
@@wynnefox I dunno about the breakup of the "holy trinity", that would go against what I said in my post because you don't have specialists, and anyone could do anything then. I don't see it, I don't see a world where a clothie can tank a hard hitting melee boss, if armor matters. Furthermore, I think they screwed themselves up with removing a bunch of secondary stats that were connected to mitigation, instead creating artificial links between stats that are not really compatible. Example: parry comes from critical strike. You essentially get two stats for one, for most tanks. That should be reversed, block, parry and dodge should be reintroduced so that tanks can focus more on that instead of having insane amounts of damage and insane amounts of self healing at the same time. I agree with the other things. I find it very strange that a lot of your offensive spells is useless against trash, unless these are dispells (or steal magic spells). Lowering hit chance? That would be a great mechanic, on trash and bosses.
I started playing Cata classic recently and I find it to have a better healing environment due to the fact of classes having no defensive CDs and or low self healing aside from dk, Shadow priests and shamans have constant heals on the grp but they're so low they only matter if the whole raid is dying from rot dmg, druids have one tranq per fight where they help if needed and thats it. Warriors have no def cds and no self healing at all during fights unless they kill something, mages only have one ice block and their barriers. What I'm saying is how can cata classic have a more healing oriented role than retail? how did we end up in a place where healing is painful and the same goes for tanking, I'll say this over and over making the game challenging for the very top is the reason behind all of this.
@@codycurtin2295 The problem is these two viewpoints are kinda mutually exclusive. Either you have healers doing their job along with other specs, or everyone's hybrid. I prefer to heal when I'm healing. I don't want to DPS. I agree this may be pretty selfish from me, which is why I stopped playing healers in modern WoW.
No ones asking casual healers to do mythic DPS numbers, but the least *YOU* can do as a *SUPPORTING* Role is do damage to kill mobs faster in downtime. Damage patterns exist. Mobs dying faster means less healing and less time spent overall in dungeon/boss fight. It also means less mana spent and less brain damage from stress. Less time in dungeon/raid means more dungeons/raids. More Loot. More efficient. Better people will want to play with you. Healing is a thinking mans role, "I dont want to do DPS" isnt thinking...
"I don't want to do DPS isn't thinking" because if not then I'll be another braindead unga bunga caveman like you. I'll keep watching anime in my downtimes, you're welcome.
I mean healers being forced to learn how to maximize damage output while healing while having the reputation of being the most miserable role to be in whatsoever led to this. Imho there should generally be more self-healing skills. Takes off some burden especially in PvE.
Final Fantasy XI got it right: As a White Mage, your job wasn't just to heal. It was to rotate Haste (DPS Buff) on your party members (while knowing which classes benefit the most from your Haste Buff), seeing enemy attacks coming in and reacting by throwing a 1-hit shield up, crowd control, silencing casters, etc. The only thing I didn't like about it is resource management was so difficult that I never found myself prioritizing DPS. Instead I'd have to prioritize meditating to gain mana back. That part sucked, I'd rather DPS. But all in all the idea was to keep your party alive AND efficient.
I've been saying this for a long time, take away dpss defensives save for one or 2 at most, give them all to healers and support specs, make tanks relly completely on the healers abilities, make us THINK through our resources and face starvation, when we gear we will feel progressively more powerfull and be able to CARRY the dpss and tanks. It is super fucking annoying that all, everything in the game is always "how much dmg can you do", tanks healers and dpss are all measured by this, so honestly why even have diferent roles? If they are all measured the same. Tanks should do close to no dmg, their role should be how much they can soak shit, imagine how epic it would be if like the boss had this beam and the tank needs to get in front of it to save the team, THAT is a tank. I came back to wow in the start of shadowlands, it's been like this ever since I came back, it is 100% absolutely a design choice, I have friends that are now playing cataclism classic and come back to me and say "hey this is really way more fun than retail", ofc it is, you are a dps, you do dmg. case and point. there is no fight that requires you to be on your toes for 100% of the time or you would wipe the whole raid for 1 sec of not paying attention. Wow's dificulty goes like this: LFR: No mechanics no stakes. Normal: Easy mechanics, very very very low stakes. Heroic: some mechanics, obsolete after 1-2 cooldowns. Mythic: All the mechanics, basically impossible for months if you are not echo or liquid, and mostly impossible for anyone ever.
These are the reasons I avoid pugging content raid or M+ and hate that M+ did the one thing you should never do in whats supposed to be core content put a timer on it, at least with my guildies they get it(plus they raid Mythic so they understand the underlying problem). I realize I'm probably an outlier I enjoy healing and tanking there is something about the controlling the battlefield aspect of those roles I enjoy, big number go up does nothing for me.
Do you wanna know a joke about Guardian Spirit for Holy Priests in M+ specifically? Because they have to pick the talent called Guardian Angel in M+, when the buff does not expire, you have a clear indicator if Guardian Spirit worked at least once (it doesn't say it in the Guardian Angel talent but it has an internal CD so it can only save a person once per GS at least which is 60 secs at best IF it doesn't save anyone due to the second passive effect of Guardian Angel talent), so if you put GS on a person and you think they will be saved and they keep getting hammered hard, you will have that person die and you will wonder why they died, they had GS on them. The buff is coded in such way that when it saves the target the damage basically gets clipped and it wont allow the target to die but also because the buff just remains, you cannot tell if it has saved the person once and cannot do again yet the buff is still on them because GS's healing bonus has to go on for its full duration and you end up with a false sense of security. Ask me how i discovered this, the answer is the very hard way, and more than once and tested and confirmed and also reported it to Blizzard, who so far has done nothing about it, even though it's 100% reproducable " bug", that was last year and you expect them to have TWW talents and classes ready at launch date? HA-HA-HA is all i have to say about that.
@@RockR277 Exactly, 100% correct and there isn't any other visual indicator as well, like the vfx of the wings going away or fade or change shape or something.
I mean, they’re already nerfing leech to combat this. They need to dial back Defensive necessity as well. Using a Defensive should be REWARDED, not mandatory.
Havent tanked since getting KSM in S1 DF, but I even as a BrM Monk - I dont think I ever truly needed a healer. Healers in m+ are triage for the group when they inevitably fail at mechanics. Other then that, they should be squeezing DPS into every open global. Gone are the days of jumping around and waiting to press a heal. Honestly cant believe people are complaining that they have to press a Lava Burst every few globals while our druids cant be fucked to press a hot because theyre too busy cat weaving saying shit like "if you stand in bad, thats your problem, you dont deserve my healing." 😂
They should just redo the whole taking damage system where the healers need to heal almost constantly with lower healing needed most of the fight and certain mechanics needing healing cd's. Healing required should scale at about the same level as dps/3 required in m+
Ok so they could add attacks that have armor pen that is flat damage weather or not you pop a defensive if they pop a defensive they don’t take crazy damage but still some good chunk and the people who didn’t pop it don’t get one shot but are going to have a tough time this means healers will still have to heal even when people are popping defenses. Also making more dots that last longer then the defensive or modify. Zdps is fun sometimes but not all the time but they could build a class like a bloodmancer were you take health from the enemy buff it and give it to allies. But they could also just trim some defensives down off dps and make them pvp talents
There really is something twisted about people going out of their way to not play solo player games but multiplayer ones and expecting the entire fucking universe of that game to revolve around them as if it were still a solo game. It’s like people that hate children still wanting to become parents or get a job as a teacher.
That could work. Or implement some sort of mechanic where if you take dmg it "shocks" you for a bit which decrease the dmg you can dish out. Effectively, if a dps wants to do top dmg they also need to try and avoid taking dmg.
Good classes have too many defensives, bad ones have one like balance and shamans while mages have layers and layers of cds to help them survive anything.
Every expansion since WotLK Blizzard has said, "we're going to slow down combat and make healing fun by lowering incoming damage and making healing spell choice matter." Literally, they have said this over and over, and it's never happened.
I'm playing on EU from Canada cause my account was in EU for years(and blizz wants me to buy everything again and pay another sub for NA LOL good luck with that). I have minimum 150ms and in DF I could not heal people in raids, ever. Because healing was so OP, other healers were just out-sniping me with their giga heals(Rdruids, Paladins and ofc EVOKERS) as a Shaman. Before I can finish a Chain Heal people would get full and I would just heal a full hp target.
I don't know if it would work for WoW, but I feel like a good way to make healers less binary would be to scale damage based on health percentage. Example: if you're at 50% health, you do 50% damage, or maybe have 50% reduced haste. Then healing wouldn't have to be the whack-a-mole live/die binary for a healer to feel like they're contributing, and you could design a whole new facet of the whole trinity around healers that are good at preventing death vs healers that are good at keeping dps topped off so they can do max dps. I.e. a shaman would be a safer option for particularly deadly pulls, but a druid would be better at efficiency, and a fistweaver would provide both efficiency and their own supplementary dps.
Maybe Defense Abilities can have an aura applied to them in group content where they get effects reduced to limit the amount they make Healers redundant, but still allow for the benefits of defensive for skill and outdoor solo content?
Remove defensive CDs and suddenly the whole game is balanced around no one having them and healing having to heal, having multiple layers of defensives is why dmg is so spiky.
if healers have to do damage, the game is built wrong and in turn the overall damage output of the DPS classes should be increased to make up for the DPS lost by having healers focus on healing.
_Oh no_ are you telling me balancing a game around the desires of _DPS_ players and a, "the best cc is death," design philosophy creates a toxic and impossible to balance gameplay environment? _Who could have guessed?_ No really, who would have guessed appeasing people who cannot _not_ stand in danger zones, cannot help but pull leagues of mobs, cannot help but complain when they are told to hold off on their burst combo, might fail to create a sustainable gameplay loop for people who enjoy _teamwork_ and class diversity beyond thw roles of "tank, dps, healer". By the way, you can't get those players back - people who chose to play tank and healer. Once you, as a designer, prove that you have a favorite child (DPS) with no sidebar praise for your other children, those other children _leave_ for good. They might come back because of friends, but they won't come back to buy bits and pieces or show any loyalty to your game. Left WoW for that reason before the broken stories. Left Overwatch for the same. I don't play on the Rift for the exact reason that being a tank, a support, or a jungler means having to perform at 110% or being abused for not "just doing damage." I don't play team games for some stupid idiot that I keep alive to tell me I need to be higher on _their_ damage charts.
likely need to rebalance each classes self healing and mitigation skills by changing the percentages or cooldown timers. for classes with multiple role options the self healing and mitigation skills valves could very depending on which role they are filling in the group. while also making enemies do more of a mix between burst damage and overtime effects. to give healers something to do more often and making mana efficiency more important.
This isn't a thing I came up with but I recall a discussion during the break in an old raid guild where healing came up as the topic. I was just listening but what the person said always intrigued me and always caused me to make a healer I would play to act the way that person suggested. So he said that instead of the "heal spam" as he called it, the healer should be a dps, and their "healer aura" (i.e. the spells, utilities, stats, etc) should be a bonus stat applied to everyone in a dungeon or raid, and that during such a situation their healing spells convert into spells to do dps. He suggested it should be a like the way the then-PVP gear was where the stats for PVE swap out for PVP-related stats and such.The way he explained it if for example a druid had the Grove Guardians active then like with certain trinkets that activate a "helper" (a cannon, a dragon or whatever) during the dungeon or raid it activates a Grove Guardian that acts as a healer for a tank, a tank or dps for a healer, and a tank or dps for a dps (depending for the latter two which is their core spells) and that's the example he gave. Actually, there's an irony because when the Dungeon Followers arrived and I decided to do some dungeons I realised they acted exactly as that person had described during the raid break. I hope the individual in question is still playing and happy that an idea of his arrived into the game in one way. BUT that individual stated that the idea was for organised dungeon and raid groups of players and not NPCs that help us, but I think that applying the foundation of the Dungeon Follower to how healing is applied as a bonus stat would allow for that player's original idea to make healing a more proactive endeavour, and rather than having to watch for healing to throw out at others they can concentrate on building a core healing stat in gear to bring into a dungeon and raid and therefore make them another dps there. My own idea for raids is one I've suggested on another channel which is where people can be active and non-active participants, and that could bring in an element of puzzle solving. So while this group of a tank and dps and healer begin the work on defeating the boss, that other group can go around and solve puzzles that exist in this version of the raid. In fact, the fact that mobs get defeated so fast in the Pandaria Remix gave me this idea. Yeah, so not everyone is top notch with their dps, but instead of them being underused they play another role. You can select to lead a group so why not have the option as the "Supplement Role" and this would be a role in raids, and in a 10-man it will be three such roles that can be filled, and in a 25-man ten such roles can be filled (supplement = a thing added to something else in order to complete or enhance it). Their role is to go around and solve puzzles, kill surrounding weaker mobs, to find and click on objects, and as the dictionary term suggest, they do things to "enhance"... and what you ask? The more they solve, kill, find and click etc (all this comes from the islands, the remix, the upcoming delves as I've seen explained - NOT done TWW content as I want to go in cold) is going to improve the quality of the loot from the boss. We ALREADY got this mechanism in the game... ahum... in the northern Dire Maul with King Gordok where, if you avoid killing any bosses prior of him, you get the best loot from his kill. This might also make the Delves way more interesting because people would use them as a place to hone their Supplement Role, just same way as Duels tend to be used to hone skills for PVP... Blame Blizzard and them doing Pandaria Remix for this idea, okay. LOL
No Healers being turned into DPS with random full heals needed cause DPS can't be bothered to learn mechanics is just a punch in the face to healers. Get healing DPS out of the game altogether except maybe holy paladin who should use melee damage to buff heals or disc priest who can do smaller heals with smite. This is philosophy is what is killing the game as we speak. You wait 30 minutes for healers because no one wants to do it because they want you to do everything instead of what your class is designed to do which is heal.
Yeah, blizzard was stupid and made everyone a dps. Instead good role management to make healers and tanks more fun. Also making everything a competition and not just fun you get this kind of attitude more often.
cut defensives % down, add +healing taken by others in that defensive, maybe a really slow HoT that heals % of healing taken with a cap on % Max HP. Useful enough for solo content while still dependent on healers in group content and enemies don't have to do so much burst to down people that don't properly pop defensives.
Most of the time the healers don't do any healing, even when we need it. They're too busy pretending to be DPS and were on our own for surviving. So at this point yeah I'd just rather take in another real DPS in place if a so-called healer.
There's legitmately a video essay that does a perfect deep dive into why the trend of the "Trinity" (DPS, Healer, Tank) is the worst set of archetypes for any game, let alone an MMO, to have. Blizzard's focus on streamlining their games to centre on this exact Trinity is why Overwatch failed because key characters, with abilities designed to negate different aspects of gameplay to provide challenge, like Mei when she was first introduced, got completely scrapped. You cannot provide players' RPG levels of choice (think Grim Dawn, Outward) while forcing players' to subscribe to a specific archetype because no matter what changes are made to the classes, those archetypes are still forcing players' to think of gameplay in a specific way, with specific outcomes and thus, because this was backed into WoW since beginning, because Blizzard can't design good combat games that aren't RTS, the trinity is now foundational to the core of WoW as a whole.
Also, WoW is, without a question, the BEST mmo for pve AND pvp GAMEPLAY ever. Period. To say that Blizz cant design good combat is such a dumbass take.
want to see a world without healers? ESO healing is so back that most dungeons beside end-end game raids has healers, all end-game dungeons and lower dificulties raids like wow-normals people dont carry heals, All classes has some sort of self-heals and defensives and Tanks carry an off-hand weapon to be a healing staff for supportive aoe heals os ice staff for a defensive buff For me, i like dedicated healer gameplay, but wow need to make healer-life easier, no need for addons
The game has flat out gone downhill for healers the second they removed the mana management out of the game. It made gearing more boring because you're not choosing between throughput vs income, which also makes it harder to get things like trinkets tailor made for healers only. It gave us less choices in our specs as well, as you ONLY want throughput now. A FFXIV system CAN work, but they're also now hitting the problem of making healing dps too easy. People meme'd about frost mages in classic WoW, and yet that's basically what they've done to healers now in FFXIV. Give more healing buttons, bring back spirit and the 5 second rule(while making dps spells cost 0 mana with talents if need be) so they can regen while dps'ing, and now you create a system where healers use mana only for healing and aren't penalized by squeezing dps in. ABC = Always Be Casting. This works when dps is mana free and mana matters in combat. Enable healers to fully regen their mana naturally between combat and remove downtime between pulls so healers can also relax between pulls like dps/tanks, hell do what FFXIV and enable all healers to combat res, but it costs a full quarter of your mana bar.
FFXIV healers: Hey hey ho ho! BS Healing has got to go! WoW healers: Hey look, we're simpatico! FFXIV healers: We're on strike! WoW healers: Hold on hold on... we don't do that here.
"More defensive and self healing tools for DPS that may be part of hybrid classes in particular"...which hybrid classes, mage? rogue? warrior? Hybrid classes have the worst defensives and sustained healing of all classes in the game right now. Sure you can cast regrowth as druid for 10-15 seconds and heal to full if thats what they mean :D
I can see solutions that could be applied to single fights but not overall. Instead of single hits, bosses do 3-4 ticks of damage where defensives can only cover 1-2. Raid-wide heal absorb debuffs combined with ticking damage, that sort of thing.
I'll repeat this in every reply, remove defensives and the problem is solved for all of the game, healing will be less intensive and more focused on the healing role, class balance will be easier to apply in terms of classes surviving stuff like in m+ where the meta has been all about surviving.
@@JustAnotherGuy1991 Tanks will need some defensives, but not as many as they have now. Possibly a regularly used one and one or two big ones for situations.
No. Because you as a DPS are trying to alter the role of one person in the group who also wants to play their role, not the one you want them to. We get to keep our array of defensive CD's and get out of jail cards but that dude over there must be forced into a fundamental change of their role to healer dps hybrid who we can then blame them for TWO THINGS. How does it feel when I say from the perspective of my Mw. That Tanks should have CD's for defence, and all DPS ones should be removed..Not so nice is it when someone starts talking about fundamentally altering your game?
@@musicilike69 If that was aimed at me, I think you fundamentally misunderstood my post. I'm trying to look for ways to keep defensives somewhat relevant but make them less useful in raid settings by designing fights that make defensives useful but not mandatory. And for the second part, that's exactly what @JustAnotherGuy1991 suggested. I'm not a high end raider so it doesn't matter that much to me either way, but I do hate to see Blizzard balance the game around the tenth of a percent that actually do +15s and mythic raids.
Healers are kind of the reason PvP in the game is shit too imo. Would be a fun experiment to see what the game is like if all damage is avoidable, and there are no pure healers.
Main Pala heal 15y here: it started slow. use crusader strike when not spamming heals, use Jugment use this and that. 1 addon ago i realised i´m just a DD in heal spec for bad/under tuned tanks or failed movement. i guess now i´m a dd that just does damage and if there is a single missstep we just yell at each other how bad everyone else plays. times change man, times change. i played cata the other day - it feels soo much slower. i was just fun instead of spammy timelimited content.
I don't want to dps as healer. If I wanted to dps, I'd play dps. Also, the problem is just encounter design. Stop making all the incoming damage do so much instantly and stop making it all avoidable damage.
Just nerf healing and maybe some of the defensives than they'll have gameplay and they won't be so bored. Instead of doing more damage and all that other shit. They could just fix the problem head on rate in front of them not all the other people and things that don't have nothing to do with the healing problem except for defensives minor nerfs for those.
Mythics just need to be shortened to 2 bosses, and require hard CC on packs, it slows down the clears, but with less bosses it can be done in the same time. Pulling 10+ mobs at a time every pull or not getting the timer is why healers are pushed to do damage, would be more fun for healers if the job was to lock down an enemy and heal the team. Its immersion breaking to be a holy priest out DPSing your DPS team members...
Highest of the top tier players don't want to rely on healers
Average dps players don't want to worry about rotating defensives as if they're playing a damn tank and prefer to just defer to healers
Healers shouldnt be dps
DPS shouldn't be tanks
And tanks shouldn't be gods
Yes I remember Corruption gear on my Blood DK doing twilight devastation and top DPS in AOE.
I think people have forgotten the REASON for healers optimizing damage.
In Mythic/Time Trialed content the DPS/Healing checks are so tight that EVEN the Healers need to contribute in order to reach the required numbers in time.
This stays true in M+ throughout the tier as keys get higher. Mythic raid on the other hand falls off in this regard as people gear up and blizzard nerfs the raid.
If you're a casual healer no ones asking you to do 100k+ every pull while orange parsing HPS....
People need to chill out. Healers already have barebones DPS kits as is what exactly are people hoping for? To remove all damage abilities? x'D
@burgers5675
"Average dps players don't want to worry about rotating defensives as if they're playing a damn tank and prefer to just defer to healers"
"Healers shouldnt be dps"
If you don't want healers to dps, then there will be constant incoming damage, keeping healers busy, which means the DPS and tanks will rely on the healers completly to stay alive. If you get a healer that's sub-par? Too bad, your key is depleted.
You're just switching the responsibility of staying alive from "yourself + healer" to "just the healer". If anything, this will make the experience even more frustrating.
Completely agreed. As a healer I actually wouldn’t be opposed to having no dps at all 😂
Healers shouldnt be dps
DPS shouldn't be tanks
And tanks shouldn't be gods
None of those are requirements. You can easily do heroic dungeons without ever having to press a defensive as a DPS, or without ever having to DPS as a healer.
They do, however, show mastery over your spec. And if a player isnt willing to press an extra button to circumvent mechanics - then maybe this isnt the game for them.
As a multiclass healer since TBC I personally despise having to dps. It was fun having “tank healers” and “raid healers” roles, strategizing and switching between different fights and different phases.
FF14 players: You guys too, huh?
cringe clickbait title sadly
You're right about people wanting to be carried. I've joined keys where people wouldn't select the people who could do the key and needed the gear, but they would select the people that massively out gear the key. Personally, I try and pick people who have a similar gear score to myself so that the group is somewhat equal when it comes to gear score. For me there is no fun in being carried.
Yeah its like people i have seen asking for AOTC for NORMAL pug runs for the raids
@@brunohommerding3416 What??? It's called NORMAL. Who are you even ahead of? lmao
That’s not a blizzard problem it’s a community problem. I blast keys, I don’t really care what IO I invite because I can carry an 8 whenever I wanted.
That being said if I join a key and see the entire group completely ignores mechanics. I just leave. I don’t have time for doing every mechanic and doing all of the work.
I can carry the key 90% of the time. But if I don’t time, only getting 5 aspects sucks. So I just leave. Easy solution is to just make sure you still get loot & aspects at the end, and not deplete the key.
This would stop people like me from doing this, and make it easier for people to get into +.
These two dudes talking have no idea what they’re really talking about tbh tho.
As someone who loves to play healers , stop trying to make healing hard. Just consistent
^This. Stop trying to make healing a gimmicky mini-game. I just want to target someone and heal them or apply an AOE heal, etc. Oh and give me plenty of mana. There are enough things generally that I need to worry about. Not standing in fire, etc. 😂
Its not just a healer problem. WOW as a whole has a problem that player characters were robbed of agency and interaction with encounter design, to be replaced with extra action buttons and generic boss mechanics.
The healer issue stems from the fact that encounter design is no longer about survival and character synergy, but rather not standing in instant death 1 shot void zones while an immortal tank generates infinite threat while taking zero damage from anything that isn't designed to kill tanks, while DPS either takes zero damage or gets one shot by a mechanic that was likely 100% avoidable by not standing in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Because of this healers are designed around mechanics made to make healers mandatory, just like how the only reason tanks are a role is because non-tanks get oneshot by any mob designated as a 'boss' monster's basic attack, while tanks just brush it off because they have a spec that has a blue shield instead of a red sword, not because of actual class mechanics that engage with the boss's design, such as using shield block on a warrior to get over 100% avoidance to negate debuff based auto attack mechanics like illidans shear in TBC or bear tanks stacking insane stamina to soak a mechanic that would otherwise oneshot another class including other tanks
Yeah it's been a slow and gradual downward spiral over many expensionsand now we are in the end stadium.
What game are you actually playing?
WoW is pretty much don't stand in the fire, don't stand on the tank.
@@amartian2 I've been playing this game for 20 years and it wasn't always this way.
Exactly
Just nerf defensives and DPS healing by 75% across the board then remove certain abilities later if necessary, then nerf enemy damage greatly. Everything on Beta is wrecking people. I'm a DPS and doing a defensive rotation on a TANK (I'm not even good at) is less stressful in the same content. It feels like a survival game and the focus is on living more than anything. Defensive usage used to be really rewarding and the payoff was the healer got to do damage or triage other players better who didn't have a defensive up or weren't tanky defensively. Now it's you're just not killed if you execute your defensive rotation well. They took the reward of using defensives well and flipped it on it's head. I'm tired of the next mechanic killing me even through defensives if I'm not 100% hp.
It’s new content, it’s supposed to be challenging. Enjoy it while it lasts because the WAs and the pathing will take all the excitement and wanderlust away by week 2.
@@TheArmouryOfficial So you didn't play M+ before DF, got it. You can challenge players without consistently having them on the brink of death.
@@Mmrraazz Ive gotten KSM in Shadowlands and DF as a tank, and only healer/dps in BFA. DF has had the best iteration of M+ and its only looking better. Youre asking for a nerf of defensives for 75%, that is a wild take. Why even have defensives then?
People cant be pressed to push an extra button to circumvent a mechanic? Or utilize stomps/interrupt rotations? If you dont want to push keys, play at the level appropriate for you, no one is pressuring you to climb higher than your skill matches.
@@TheArmouryOfficial KSM means nothing. That's almost always week 1 rating. You don't understand the problem, and that's okay.
@@MmrraazzKSM week 1 is only for a very small % of the player base
When mana levels were normalized, Healing in Wow became less fun. The old mana system allowed for increasing/scaling mana costs, now they have to balance it around the mana cap, and it makes it rough without punishing some healers.
Yep, I HATE the mana cap. It's another stupid decision to simplify the game to just throughput and nothing else.
Lol, this is hilarious with the exact same controversy in FF14 right now.
yeah, though to be fair this has been an off and on again problem since before the first ff14 expansion. Each xpac though seems to make it worse.
@@serillen1904 This problem is also significantly, and I mean SIGNIFICANTLY worse in 14 than in WoW
@@arcadema Yeah, I had a healer in a dungeon once in FF14 so stuck in the mindset that healers should DPS, that he refused to heal at all. Even though our tank couldn't handle it, and we wiped. And still he refused to heal. We ended up kicking him lol. You can't apply this kind of thinking to a beginner tank, or a casual player.
XIV needs more consistent damage. Too much of the regular damage is wrapped up in the AoEs and Tankbusters. There needs to be more chip damage so healers actually have to heal people so they can be ready for the chunk damage.
@@frostmagemarii FFXIV's cardinal issue is that the encounters are fully scripted and predictable from start to finish which will always render healing in that game unfun (to me, at least) no amount of consistent damage can change the fact that the encounter design is so predictable that you can literally memorise which healing abilities to use at which point and it will ALWAYS work with 100% certainty.
What I don't understand is why this can't be solved reducing the spike in damage and increasing the rot damage.
And then you have the other cases, the people who call out healers to do more and DPS and literally call healers lazy if they don't manage do x amount of DPS, it's like, in M+ especially S3 and S4 people need to be constantly topped up otherwise they are will very likely be dead even especially if they don't use their defensive CDs, most don't, even at 14 (DF S4s) key level.
When that happens you take avoidable damage, you are forcing the healer to basically heal more than they would otherwise, you are causing them to waste time which is crucial to the following things: not be able to DPS AT ALL in that time window which they need to save you, waste mana and threaten another player's life which might also be needed from taking unavoidable damage healing as well (including theirs) or they might die as well and then you probably all wipe so this is the stupid part which if i am a healer and you want me to DPS you must expect me to have less chance to react to clutch healing requirements because 1 their randomness due to skill issues of other players which is tied to and design around personal defensives to survive and 2 because f'ing GCD is a think you keep forgetting that it exists most often because what you are so used to do around it is your own thing/class, tanking or DPS, which is almost never related to a person dying directly or even as much as a healers heal is and even a healer who can do both things at the same time (for a limiter time), like MW and Disc Priest via their "maintenance" (through dealing damage) type of healing, can keep people alive simply because it's just designed to not be enough to do so (kinda feels pointless now that i say it like this because mostly, it is and a lot of it is overhealing especially for MW can mean at times, wasted GCDs), so it's either healing or DPS that you will be f'ing getting and if you don't like it either l2p under the rules of the current design or go play something else because the healers are not at fault for this type of design, Blizzard is, so if you have a problem with that, ask them why they are using the current design which is fundamentally, flawed, in the sense that it only works for the top % as this is what it is designed to target for and the looseness in between is what muddies the waters and it's what is allowed from scaling, there to fill the gaps for less skilled players until they get out-scaled by the level of M+ difficulty they are targeting compared to their ilvl and personal performance via it, same is for a healer and that's the main problem not the healers or their amount of DPS.
It's an annoying topic per se. Where am I atm? I'm at the eff PvE stage. The player base that's not healer is starting to look at your healer as a pain in the ass, we get no love and all the blame. I switched to FF 14 a few years back and saw how it goes down there. Healers DPS which I do anyway so that seemed to go down well and WoW irritates me already on the PvE side because if that weekly pops up for 4 mythic dungs nobody even wants a healer. Soooo what have I done , in essence I have withdrawn my labour and wrote off PvE. Class changes are annoying but it's everyone who gets it..This is different, we have a huge part of the base that in essence is trying to write us out. Or, yeah we want you now because we need you to win but will force you to play your game the way we like it.
You're messing with the whole synergy of the game here. Tanks tank, dps dps..yeah but you healers are letting us down. What? Okay do the dung on your own or use NPC party and before you know it half the base is playing an MMO alone and may even not want to go back to a traditional party set up because the other 4 expect them to save their lives WHEN THEY MESS UP but also do a triple salchow double toe loop on damage and force them into a DPS role and not even the fundamentals of their class anymore.. Making your standard healer who wants to just play their natural role become disassociated from the rest of the player base and surplus except in special cases
There won't be much laughing when Healers are like no , f the rest of the base I'm playing my OWN GAME from now on and not their stupid hybrid beat me in DPS dick waving party runs. Which will equate to long wait times for when a true healer spec is really required.
Look even if my team doesn't take dmg I WON'T do dps. Isn't there enough dps to complete the key on time? Not my problem, that's the main dps responsibility, not mine so I'll continue watching a movie, anime or something else in the meantime.
More DoTs less spiky damage, that'll do it.
The easy fix is more slow drain damage that can't be reduced by cds to challenge healers, and the spike damage that exists should be less frequent, telegraphed (or avoidable by stops), and susceptible to cd damage reduction for skill expression by players.
People in general don't know what they want... so this is why game designers should know what they are doing based on experience.... but in this world, where HR thinks everyone can be anything everyone is just clueless what to do....
Healer here. Not many healers want DPS in their dungeons either. They are the root of most feck wit moments ever.
Been healing since wrath and my preferred style of healing was the end of BFA and shadowlands.
Dragonflight was pretty horrendous as far as healing goes. Season 1 made me feel pretty weak. There were points where a tanks off heals were more powerful and capable of topping people easier than the strongest heals a dedicated healer could muster, this was not good. I don’t particularly like weak feeling healing where it takes ages to top people.
I’d prefer just having a fun dps rotation with healing when required and supporting the team in other ways than just slowly trickle healing the group..
Seems like the timer is one of the major reasons this happens. If only someone had pointed this out as early as legio-oh wait.
The timer is cancer and as long as Titan Rune: Whatever doesn't add timers to Cata classic, I'll most likely be fine with whatever they come up with. I also don't know for sure they're doing alphas at all again; we'll see.
i knew i would quit WoW one day the first time i saw someone say, "healer" in a dungeon instead of taking the time to type their name.
Since like Wrath, I've been playing Warlock. As a Warlock I have a lot of self-healing or damage mitigation. I try to be the one that needs to get healed the least by the Healers, So they can pay attention to the Tanks and other people more than me. When I use to raid more often, I was almost always the least healed person in the raid, largely because by damage mitigation was good enough so the Healers would either only need to throw a HoT on me every once in a while, or I knew well enough to step into a healing circle when needed. Healthstone helps a little as well if there is a heavy raid wide hit so the Healer can get the Tanks. Tanks die, we all die. I die, well maybe the rest of them can dps the thing down. (I've emergency tanked if the boss is like at 1% with Voidwalker. I don't work all the time, but every once in a while we down the Boss even if we have a Voidwalker tank for 20 seconds).
Just so you know we appreciate people like you more than we realize and yes we notice when you're doing youre best not to take dmg
our Demo stands in all the mechanics, claiming that he doesnt need to avoid damage bc of his massive HP pool. we rag on him for making our healers have heart attacks lol
I've been healing since the original SSC, and for boss encounters especially, variety is the flesh and blood of enjoying healing. I think pulling out at least two or three different healing 'issues' per fight isn't too much to ask for these days. Triage healing, heavy DoTs, throughput pumping, etc; there's plenty that game developers can throw into an 8-14 minute encounter to make it engaging for healers and not completely fatal when defensives are on CD. Fights like Tsulong from MoP or Hydross the Unstable from BC were a good start. DPS and Healers had to coordinate with eachother to make it happen and not just whine that one side or the other wasn't doing enough or felt useless.
How about making it so a players damage in an encounter could get buffed the higher their % of hp was above a certain % but they keep taking damage while rolling through gcds? Or Overhealing charged other player's defensives in positive ways? It's not just that there's a perceived notion that healing isn't needed/wanted, but a hard fact that other than keeping green bars green or removing debuffs there's not enough synergy between the classes.
Same conversation that's been going for years lol
Every class can do everything.
Worrying about mana is waay less fun to me than playing whack a mole.
I only wanna do dps as a dps player and have 1 defensive at most for mechanics that are designed around needing defensive. I absolutely want healers because I don't ever wanna worry about surviving.
I miss having to cc certain mobs and had to kinda think about what was happening. Also what happend to certain dps being super squishy cuz they had the best dps
There is 10x more CC in M+ than any dungeon in the past. The difference is you are cc'ing the mobs with kicks and stops, not standing around for 3 minutes marking what to sheep.
@keithb6344 yea that's not cc that's just running a rotation with kicks and stuns..my point I'd people had roles and specialities.. now it's just an aoe shit fest
@keithb6344 everyone does every thing... imagine not wanting or needing a healer.. ripping the soul right out of the game. Is wow an arpg.. because the more time goes on it seems to be assuming that roll
What if you make class defensives cost more damage time(like having to bandage) so the loss of dps will make teams rely more on the healer instead. Idk 🤷🏼♂️
Dangerous waters here. What we have is a major section of players ie DPS thinking they should have a loud voice in how healers play and are made to play. If all the healers start piping up and saying remove DPS defensive CD's that will of course be outrageous.
I've always been puzzled that they don't take more specs in the damage-to-heal direction like they established in disc and post-Cata paladin. Maybe (definitely) I'm biased as that's a play pattern I actually enjoy more than the raid frame whack-a-mole, but aligning the support and DPS would seem to make more sense and be more fun. There are a few nods to this in other specs- acid rain on shaman, bouncing living flames, etc- but it's a direction I wish they'd push more.
So if it's too hard to rebalance everything to remove all the multitude of defenses. Wouldn't it be worth considering just reducing the effective windows for the active defenses.
I mean something as simple as for example astral shift has a 12 second effectiveness. Reduce it to say 8.
That or just reduce the effectiveness but keep the duration.
I like that people have buttons to press, but 12 seconds seems like a long time for active Dr on top of all the passive Dr
It's easy to do, scale defensives like they do for healer cooldowns in different settings. Solo content, delves, etc keep them as they are.
Raids, m+, etc make them scale down. Instead of a 20% DR make it 5% or something where it's a nice little bonus, but that's it
What if they took tank defensives and changed them from reducing damage, to something like -- for the next 12 seconds, 50% of direct damage is taken over 3 seconds. Which does reduce damage, while also giving the healers time to heal.
Easy solution, Nerf tanks self healing and make it the job of the healer to help keep the tank up. Tank self sustain is way too high right now. Shift some of the tank survivability to actually needing heals from healers and re balance the dungeon around that.
I tanked a s4 m+2 on my Pally. Healer died to trash and was dead for every boss fight. I self healed the entire dungeon. I can see groups wanting 4 dps and no healer. it's doable but shouldn't be.
There's a reason The Raging Tempest in Nok was my favourite dungeon boss to heal in DF. The storm mechanic succeeds at doing exactly what blizzard needs to do IMO to fix the issue.
You prepare for the damage, you take several smaller chunks of damage, you play arond an interesting arena that presents positioning as an important factor. I play pres. I have to run loops to reach everyone OR the group has to be well coordinated enough to all stand on the same side for the storm then move back.
IT IS FUN. The bosses in revamped DF Uldaman weren't as fun to me, but they were also successful at bridging the gap imo.
Blizzard just needs to have the balls to something different about healers, which is, if they don't want to fundamentally change the top % design, just reward the DPS with short lasting damage bonus IF they use a defensive tools at the right time, virtually every min-maxer or even the most fake macho attitude like DPS will wanna press their defensive when they should and will learn to do so just so they can brag about their DPS meters, one stone, two birds solution, AND it also solves the possible issue of pressing it whenever just to get bonus damage, simply because, you, as Blizzard can code it to tie the effect of the damage reduction to triggered the damage bonus so they only get it when they use it properly, and if you wanna scale it up, connect the rations of the damage reduced plus or minus whatever you wanna balance that value around in relationship to the bonus gained, you can still do that as well, you just have to have the balls to do it, don't make healers weaker, we hate being weak, we don't like it if we can't save lives, we don't play the game otherwise, it's that high of how binary it is on the scale.
Edit and by the way this doesn't even affect the top % design at all, it actually improves it, if done right.
What if it was like 2 separate games? Picture this there are the DPS and they have their defensives (Except druids...) and they get to press them to stop damage and mitigate but they add Heal absorb mechanic and or more "stagger mechs" or bleeds and if I don't heal off the absorb shield enough it will damage them or damage them and nearby players? maybe its caster mobs in dungeons do it now or maybe it's a Key thing.... and you have 2-3 absorbs rolling and 1 bleed you heal 1 of the absorbs and 1/2 of the other and the whole bleed. If the absorb expires damage split around players in 5 yards if the bleed isn't healed it drops a pool that can heal 5% of one monsters HP.
Thing is, I don't see anything wrong with having the defensives it shows skill and if by using them it means you survive, then great!
Reduce the spike damage and slow the pace of damage, i.e. remove alot of the "extra" damage that comes from bosses to slow the pace down
I think every class has a way of getting their health back during solo play but when it comes to group content we seem to rely on 1 extra person to heal all of us. What if you have a group of hybrids doing some content like m+ where it's no ones job to heal but then every now and then you're throwing out some heal to yourself or another person on your team. The upside to this is more damage done by the group but a downside could be where 2 players then go to heal the same person.
In the current state, DPS and healer needs more love in defense, not damage/HPS. DPS shouldn’t be punished with death for not having a defense CD on every single mechanic.
All of these problems are caused by one game mode: M+ , all the other modes work. Blizzard should not change their entire game because of high M+ keys (which 95% of players don't do). You get to a point, in higher keys- that you almost can't heal because mobs are hitting so hard. If you try to heal through it- they will burn you. You need to burn them, before they burn you. So more dps is the answer. That is part of strategizing higher keys- healing, and the game aren't broken. It is just one fraction of a single game mode.
It's a simple solution, you just have damage going out more often than defensives are up, so you just can't defensive most of the damage
My English is very decent, but often I Just don't understand a whole sentence of Matt. I know he is smart and has a lot to say but if you can improve one thing, it's that for me. Else good content and talks ❤
its because hes welch
People who call themselves healers, doesn't use monk as a fistweaver and also love to do dmg: you're not a healer, you're a frustrated dps who's a wanna-be healer.
People complaining about class fantasy and throwing all the blame to a "lack of talent trees" when in reality this problem is the main reason that "class fantasy" has been eroded. WoW foundations were the holy triforce of tank, dps and healer and that's how it should have stayed, you feel bored healing cus the tip of your fingers itches? Then healer is mostly not a role for you, plain and simple.
Raiding was more enjoyable when you actually planned which healer to bring based on what each one had to offer, it was a more strategic activity than just "which one is the broken one atm". Wanna have massive shielding? Bring a pally, wanna have raw healing? Bring an hpriest, your tank is like wet paper and struggles to survive a fight? Bring a dpriest, want something to fill in the gaps the hpriest can't heal? Bring a druid or a shamy.
If you’re not planning your healer groups in today’s content you’re not playing the game correctly.
Did you also forget to mention disc priest? Or paladin? There are plenty of healers aside from monk who dps as part of their healing.
"WoW foundations were the holy triforce of tank, dps and healer and that's how it should have stayed" Uh no? WoW's foundation was that your role would be dictated by your class. Like older MMOs, you had tank, secondary tank, target dps, AoE dps, healer, shielder, controller, kiter, support, buffers, debuffers, jack-of-all-trade, combinations of all that, etc, and it's only in 40-man raids that some of these roles were broken. The reason why people are frustrated nowadays is because they know in their heart that this is what they wanted out of the game. Not everyone wants to play Mercy. Some want to play Zenyatta.
Easy: stop focusing everything on damage. Healers should *not* be forced to do damage, they should be focused on healing, on mitigating damage, on purging, dispelling and other utilities needed. The existence of some sort of a self heal on literary every class and every spec is not IMHO viable. A dps should not have so many abilities that mitigate damage. Warriors should have only victory rush, and that's a strong maybe. Mages have conjure food/water, which are insanely underused in open world. Classes that do have abilities to self heal should still have them, but potentially their self heals, when doing roles that aren't healing, should be toned down. The only exception are DKs due to their class fantasy. Paladins have a myriad of self healing spells that they can utilize, but they are a holy class. Druids have a resto spec and have healing spell in their toolkit. There is absolutely no reason why DHs have a self healing spell, they use fel magic which is antithetical to healing. Etc. These should all be tuned, healers should matter but not in a way where they're forced out of their primary role. I stopped healing after BfA because of the insane pressure of doing constant DPS in addition to healing the group.
Honestly, they need to punch open their game design and this whole "holy trinity" thing. THere are games that are not so hard core about the whole healing thing that do great. Tanks can be supplemented or enhanced by controller specific players, DPS the same from augmenting classes, Healers need defensive support.
The dev team in the past is so scared to break up that "holy trinity". Imagine a Disc priest throwing a round almost no heals and instead bubbling to give even bigger effective health. Monks being able to increase resistances dramatically of their team mates so they can just pop a self heal to be fine. Hell, Shadow priests can reduce the accuracy of enemies. Even bosses.
@@wynnefox I dunno about the breakup of the "holy trinity", that would go against what I said in my post because you don't have specialists, and anyone could do anything then. I don't see it, I don't see a world where a clothie can tank a hard hitting melee boss, if armor matters. Furthermore, I think they screwed themselves up with removing a bunch of secondary stats that were connected to mitigation, instead creating artificial links between stats that are not really compatible. Example: parry comes from critical strike. You essentially get two stats for one, for most tanks. That should be reversed, block, parry and dodge should be reintroduced so that tanks can focus more on that instead of having insane amounts of damage and insane amounts of self healing at the same time.
I agree with the other things. I find it very strange that a lot of your offensive spells is useless against trash, unless these are dispells (or steal magic spells). Lowering hit chance? That would be a great mechanic, on trash and bosses.
No. Discipline and fistweaver are the most fun specs in the game. Having everyone just be basic healers is boring. Give us options
I started playing Cata classic recently and I find it to have a better healing environment due to the fact of classes having no defensive CDs and or low self healing aside from dk, Shadow priests and shamans have constant heals on the grp but they're so low they only matter if the whole raid is dying from rot dmg, druids have one tranq per fight where they help if needed and thats it.
Warriors have no def cds and no self healing at all during fights unless they kill something, mages only have one ice block and their barriers. What I'm saying is how can cata classic have a more healing oriented role than retail? how did we end up in a place where healing is painful and the same goes for tanking, I'll say this over and over making the game challenging for the very top is the reason behind all of this.
@@codycurtin2295 The problem is these two viewpoints are kinda mutually exclusive. Either you have healers doing their job along with other specs, or everyone's hybrid. I prefer to heal when I'm healing. I don't want to DPS. I agree this may be pretty selfish from me, which is why I stopped playing healers in modern WoW.
Where is the part where they talk about wow players not wanting healers in their dungeon and why?
No ones asking casual healers to do mythic DPS numbers, but the least *YOU* can do as a *SUPPORTING* Role is do damage to kill mobs faster in downtime. Damage patterns exist.
Mobs dying faster means less healing and less time spent overall in dungeon/boss fight. It also means less mana spent and less brain damage from stress.
Less time in dungeon/raid means more dungeons/raids. More Loot. More efficient. Better people will want to play with you.
Healing is a thinking mans role, "I dont want to do DPS" isnt thinking...
"I don't want to do DPS isn't thinking" because if not then I'll be another braindead unga bunga caveman like you.
I'll keep watching anime in my downtimes, you're welcome.
I mean healers being forced to learn how to maximize damage output while healing while having the reputation of being the most miserable role to be in whatsoever led to this.
Imho there should generally be more self-healing skills. Takes off some burden especially in PvE.
Final Fantasy XI got it right: As a White Mage, your job wasn't just to heal. It was to rotate Haste (DPS Buff) on your party members (while knowing which classes benefit the most from your Haste Buff), seeing enemy attacks coming in and reacting by throwing a 1-hit shield up, crowd control, silencing casters, etc.
The only thing I didn't like about it is resource management was so difficult that I never found myself prioritizing DPS. Instead I'd have to prioritize meditating to gain mana back. That part sucked, I'd rather DPS.
But all in all the idea was to keep your party alive AND efficient.
That’s called augmentation and prettt much every healer hates augmentation evokers
If you kill the adds before they do dmg there is no need for healers. Wotlk dungeons were like that in the end.
I've been saying this for a long time, take away dpss defensives save for one or 2 at most, give them all to healers and support specs, make tanks relly completely on the healers abilities, make us THINK through our resources and face starvation, when we gear we will feel progressively more powerfull and be able to CARRY the dpss and tanks. It is super fucking annoying that all, everything in the game is always "how much dmg can you do", tanks healers and dpss are all measured by this, so honestly why even have diferent roles? If they are all measured the same.
Tanks should do close to no dmg, their role should be how much they can soak shit, imagine how epic it would be if like the boss had this beam and the tank needs to get in front of it to save the team, THAT is a tank.
I came back to wow in the start of shadowlands, it's been like this ever since I came back, it is 100% absolutely a design choice, I have friends that are now playing cataclism classic and come back to me and say "hey this is really way more fun than retail", ofc it is, you are a dps, you do dmg. case and point. there is no fight that requires you to be on your toes for 100% of the time or you would wipe the whole raid for 1 sec of not paying attention.
Wow's dificulty goes like this:
LFR: No mechanics no stakes.
Normal: Easy mechanics, very very very low stakes.
Heroic: some mechanics, obsolete after 1-2 cooldowns.
Mythic: All the mechanics, basically impossible for months if you are not echo or liquid, and mostly impossible for anyone ever.
These are the reasons I avoid pugging content raid or M+ and hate that M+ did the one thing you should never do in whats supposed to be core content put a timer on it, at least with my guildies they get it(plus they raid Mythic so they understand the underlying problem). I realize I'm probably an outlier I enjoy healing and tanking there is something about the controlling the battlefield aspect of those roles I enjoy, big number go up does nothing for me.
Do you wanna know a joke about Guardian Spirit for Holy Priests in M+ specifically?
Because they have to pick the talent called Guardian Angel in M+, when the buff does not expire, you have a clear indicator if Guardian Spirit worked at least once (it doesn't say it in the Guardian Angel talent but it has an internal CD so it can only save a person once per GS at least which is 60 secs at best IF it doesn't save anyone due to the second passive effect of Guardian Angel talent), so if you put GS on a person and you think they will be saved and they keep getting hammered hard, you will have that person die and you will wonder why they died, they had GS on them.
The buff is coded in such way that when it saves the target the damage basically gets clipped and it wont allow the target to die but also because the buff just remains, you cannot tell if it has saved the person once and cannot do again yet the buff is still on them because GS's healing bonus has to go on for its full duration and you end up with a false sense of security.
Ask me how i discovered this, the answer is the very hard way, and more than once and tested and confirmed and also reported it to Blizzard, who so far has done nothing about it, even though it's 100% reproducable " bug", that was last year and you expect them to have TWW talents and classes ready at launch date?
HA-HA-HA is all i have to say about that.
That sounds real dumb. Could easily make a new buff that's a color shifted version for clarity.
@@RockR277 Exactly, 100% correct and there isn't any other visual indicator as well, like the vfx of the wings going away or fade or change shape or something.
I mean, they’re already nerfing leech to combat this. They need to dial back Defensive necessity as well. Using a Defensive should be REWARDED, not mandatory.
as a blood dk; we need healers sometimes, as a tank; we need healers
Havent tanked since getting KSM in S1 DF, but I even as a BrM Monk - I dont think I ever truly needed a healer. Healers in m+ are triage for the group when they inevitably fail at mechanics. Other then that, they should be squeezing DPS into every open global.
Gone are the days of jumping around and waiting to press a heal.
Honestly cant believe people are complaining that they have to press a Lava Burst every few globals while our druids cant be fucked to press a hot because theyre too busy cat weaving saying shit like "if you stand in bad, thats your problem, you dont deserve my healing." 😂
They should just redo the whole taking damage system where the healers need to heal almost constantly with lower healing needed most of the fight and certain mechanics needing healing cd's. Healing required should scale at about the same level as dps/3 required in m+
Ok so they could add attacks that have armor pen that is flat damage weather or not you pop a defensive if they pop a defensive they don’t take crazy damage but still some good chunk and the people who didn’t pop it don’t get one shot but are going to have a tough time this means healers will still have to heal even when people are popping defenses. Also making more dots that last longer then the defensive or modify. Zdps is fun sometimes but not all the time but they could build a class like a bloodmancer were you take health from the enemy buff it and give it to allies. But they could also just trim some defensives down off dps and make them pvp talents
*They can only ever balance their pay cheque.*
All of my healers do dps when not healing. I personally enjoy doing dps as healer. Healing comes first but most of time I’m bored if I just heal
There really is something twisted about people going out of their way to not play solo player games but multiplayer ones and expecting the entire fucking universe of that game to revolve around them as if it were still a solo game. It’s like people that hate children still wanting to become parents or get a job as a teacher.
how many more clips we got coming from mic molestation 2024 stream??
Reduce healing by X, reduce mob damage by X, tie player damage to how much health they have
That could work. Or implement some sort of mechanic where if you take dmg it "shocks" you for a bit which decrease the dmg you can dish out.
Effectively, if a dps wants to do top dmg they also need to try and avoid taking dmg.
@@alonbinyamin you cannot fail at any mechanic at the high end, there is no try and avoid damage. There is avoid, or die.
Good classes have too many defensives, bad ones have one like balance and shamans while mages have layers and layers of cds to help them survive anything.
Give all players the brewmaster thing, that makes lets day 50% of damage be over time instead
Every expansion since WotLK Blizzard has said, "we're going to slow down combat and make healing fun by lowering incoming damage and making healing spell choice matter." Literally, they have said this over and over, and it's never happened.
That's why they added cast time to Prayer of Mending
I'm playing on EU from Canada cause my account was in EU for years(and blizz wants me to buy everything again and pay another sub for NA LOL good luck with that). I have minimum 150ms and in DF I could not heal people in raids, ever. Because healing was so OP, other healers were just out-sniping me with their giga heals(Rdruids, Paladins and ofc EVOKERS) as a Shaman. Before I can finish a Chain Heal people would get full and I would just heal a full hp target.
I don't know if it would work for WoW, but I feel like a good way to make healers less binary would be to scale damage based on health percentage. Example: if you're at 50% health, you do 50% damage, or maybe have 50% reduced haste. Then healing wouldn't have to be the whack-a-mole live/die binary for a healer to feel like they're contributing, and you could design a whole new facet of the whole trinity around healers that are good at preventing death vs healers that are good at keeping dps topped off so they can do max dps. I.e. a shaman would be a safer option for particularly deadly pulls, but a druid would be better at efficiency, and a fistweaver would provide both efficiency and their own supplementary dps.
Maybe Defense Abilities can have an aura applied to them in group content where they get effects reduced to limit the amount they make Healers redundant, but still allow for the benefits of defensive for skill and outdoor solo content?
Remove defensive CDs and suddenly the whole game is balanced around no one having them and healing having to heal, having multiple layers of defensives is why dmg is so spiky.
Its almost like a game like WoW should never have timers.
if healers have to do damage, the game is built wrong and in turn the overall damage output of the DPS classes should be increased to make up for the DPS lost by having healers focus on healing.
gotta go zoom zoom zoomer spergs are the ones who don't want healers. You get moonfire, sunfire, and wrath spam and you'll enjoy it.
_Oh no_ are you telling me balancing a game around the desires of _DPS_ players and a, "the best cc is death," design philosophy creates a toxic and impossible to balance gameplay environment?
_Who could have guessed?_
No really, who would have guessed appeasing people who cannot _not_ stand in danger zones, cannot help but pull leagues of mobs, cannot help but complain when they are told to hold off on their burst combo, might fail to create a sustainable gameplay loop for people who enjoy _teamwork_ and class diversity beyond thw roles of "tank, dps, healer".
By the way, you can't get those players back - people who chose to play tank and healer. Once you, as a designer, prove that you have a favorite child (DPS) with no sidebar praise for your other children, those other children _leave_ for good. They might come back because of friends, but they won't come back to buy bits and pieces or show any loyalty to your game. Left WoW for that reason before the broken stories. Left Overwatch for the same. I don't play on the Rift for the exact reason that being a tank, a support, or a jungler means having to perform at 110% or being abused for not "just doing damage."
I don't play team games for some stupid idiot that I keep alive to tell me I need to be higher on _their_ damage charts.
A tragic consequence of MMOs increasingly becoming solo-friendly.
Also, more steady, significant damage and less 1 shot mechanics
likely need to rebalance each classes self healing and mitigation skills by changing the percentages or cooldown timers. for classes with multiple role options the self healing and mitigation skills valves could very depending on which role they are filling in the group. while also making enemies do more of a mix between burst damage and overtime effects. to give healers something to do more often and making mana efficiency more important.
This isn't a thing I came up with but I recall a discussion during the break in an old raid guild where healing came up as the topic. I was just listening but what the person said always intrigued me and always caused me to make a healer I would play to act the way that person suggested. So he said that instead of the "heal spam" as he called it, the healer should be a dps, and their "healer aura" (i.e. the spells, utilities, stats, etc) should be a bonus stat applied to everyone in a dungeon or raid, and that during such a situation their healing spells convert into spells to do dps. He suggested it should be a like the way the then-PVP gear was where the stats for PVE swap out for PVP-related stats and such.The way he explained it if for example a druid had the Grove Guardians active then like with certain trinkets that activate a "helper" (a cannon, a dragon or whatever) during the dungeon or raid it activates a Grove Guardian that acts as a healer for a tank, a tank or dps for a healer, and a tank or dps for a dps (depending for the latter two which is their core spells) and that's the example he gave.
Actually, there's an irony because when the Dungeon Followers arrived and I decided to do some dungeons I realised they acted exactly as that person had described during the raid break. I hope the individual in question is still playing and happy that an idea of his arrived into the game in one way. BUT that individual stated that the idea was for organised dungeon and raid groups of players and not NPCs that help us, but I think that applying the foundation of the Dungeon Follower to how healing is applied as a bonus stat would allow for that player's original idea to make healing a more proactive endeavour, and rather than having to watch for healing to throw out at others they can concentrate on building a core healing stat in gear to bring into a dungeon and raid and therefore make them another dps there.
My own idea for raids is one I've suggested on another channel which is where people can be active and non-active participants, and that could bring in an element of puzzle solving. So while this group of a tank and dps and healer begin the work on defeating the boss, that other group can go around and solve puzzles that exist in this version of the raid. In fact, the fact that mobs get defeated so fast in the Pandaria Remix gave me this idea. Yeah, so not everyone is top notch with their dps, but instead of them being underused they play another role. You can select to lead a group so why not have the option as the "Supplement Role" and this would be a role in raids, and in a 10-man it will be three such roles that can be filled, and in a 25-man ten such roles can be filled (supplement = a thing added to something else in order to complete or enhance it). Their role is to go around and solve puzzles, kill surrounding weaker mobs, to find and click on objects, and as the dictionary term suggest, they do things to "enhance"... and what you ask? The more they solve, kill, find and click etc (all this comes from the islands, the remix, the upcoming delves as I've seen explained - NOT done TWW content as I want to go in cold) is going to improve the quality of the loot from the boss. We ALREADY got this mechanism in the game... ahum... in the northern Dire Maul with King Gordok where, if you avoid killing any bosses prior of him, you get the best loot from his kill. This might also make the Delves way more interesting because people would use them as a place to hone their Supplement Role, just same way as Duels tend to be used to hone skills for PVP... Blame Blizzard and them doing Pandaria Remix for this idea, okay. LOL
No Healers being turned into DPS with random full heals needed cause DPS can't be bothered to learn mechanics is just a punch in the face to healers. Get healing DPS out of the game altogether except maybe holy paladin who should use melee damage to buff heals or disc priest who can do smaller heals with smite. This is philosophy is what is killing the game as we speak. You wait 30 minutes for healers because no one wants to do it because they want you to do everything instead of what your class is designed to do which is heal.
Yeah, blizzard was stupid and made everyone a dps. Instead good role management to make healers and tanks more fun. Also making everything a competition and not just fun you get this kind of attitude more often.
cut defensives % down, add +healing taken by others in that defensive, maybe a really slow HoT that heals % of healing taken with a cap on % Max HP. Useful enough for solo content while still dependent on healers in group content and enemies don't have to do so much burst to down people that don't properly pop defensives.
Remove self healing from tanks and dps ( our massively reduce it ). Like back in the day. You're dying ? Tough shit you need a healer.
Most of the time the healers don't do any healing, even when we need it. They're too busy pretending to be DPS and were on our own for surviving. So at this point yeah I'd just rather take in another real DPS in place if a so-called healer.
There's legitmately a video essay that does a perfect deep dive into why the trend of the "Trinity" (DPS, Healer, Tank) is the worst set of archetypes for any game, let alone an MMO, to have. Blizzard's focus on streamlining their games to centre on this exact Trinity is why Overwatch failed because key characters, with abilities designed to negate different aspects of gameplay to provide challenge, like Mei when she was first introduced, got completely scrapped. You cannot provide players' RPG levels of choice (think Grim Dawn, Outward) while forcing players' to subscribe to a specific archetype because no matter what changes are made to the classes, those archetypes are still forcing players' to think of gameplay in a specific way, with specific outcomes and thus, because this was backed into WoW since beginning, because Blizzard can't design good combat games that aren't RTS, the trinity is now foundational to the core of WoW as a whole.
What’s the alternative? GW2 which doesn’t have a trinity, is a complete shit show.
Also, WoW is, without a question, the BEST mmo for pve AND pvp GAMEPLAY ever. Period. To say that Blizz cant design good combat is such a dumbass take.
want to see a world without healers?
ESO healing is so back that most dungeons beside end-end game raids has healers, all end-game dungeons and lower dificulties raids like wow-normals people dont carry heals,
All classes has some sort of self-heals and defensives and Tanks carry an off-hand weapon to be a healing staff for supportive aoe heals os ice staff for a defensive buff
For me, i like dedicated healer gameplay, but wow need to make healer-life easier, no need for addons
Sounds like the problem is DPS players not healers.
Dps-mains who complain about tanks and healers should lose their right to use defensiv cooldowns and self healing 🧐
The game has flat out gone downhill for healers the second they removed the mana management out of the game. It made gearing more boring because you're not choosing between throughput vs income, which also makes it harder to get things like trinkets tailor made for healers only. It gave us less choices in our specs as well, as you ONLY want throughput now.
A FFXIV system CAN work, but they're also now hitting the problem of making healing dps too easy. People meme'd about frost mages in classic WoW, and yet that's basically what they've done to healers now in FFXIV. Give more healing buttons, bring back spirit and the 5 second rule(while making dps spells cost 0 mana with talents if need be) so they can regen while dps'ing, and now you create a system where healers use mana only for healing and aren't penalized by squeezing dps in.
ABC = Always Be Casting. This works when dps is mana free and mana matters in combat. Enable healers to fully regen their mana naturally between combat and remove downtime between pulls so healers can also relax between pulls like dps/tanks, hell do what FFXIV and enable all healers to combat res, but it costs a full quarter of your mana bar.
Make people in dungeons/raids do less dps the more hp the have lost, then you would hear every dps call for more heals
FFXIV healers: Hey hey ho ho! BS Healing has got to go!
WoW healers: Hey look, we're simpatico!
FFXIV healers: We're on strike!
WoW healers: Hold on hold on... we don't do that here.
I just want to say, "Damn! Look at that glorious beard!" That is all. Have a nice day.
"More defensive and self healing tools for DPS that may be part of hybrid classes in particular"...which hybrid classes, mage? rogue? warrior? Hybrid classes have the worst defensives and sustained healing of all classes in the game right now. Sure you can cast regrowth as druid for 10-15 seconds and heal to full if thats what they mean :D
I can see solutions that could be applied to single fights but not overall. Instead of single hits, bosses do 3-4 ticks of damage where defensives can only cover 1-2. Raid-wide heal absorb debuffs combined with ticking damage, that sort of thing.
I'll repeat this in every reply, remove defensives and the problem is solved for all of the game, healing will be less intensive and more focused on the healing role, class balance will be easier to apply in terms of classes surviving stuff like in m+ where the meta has been all about surviving.
@@JustAnotherGuy1991 Tanks will need some defensives, but not as many as they have now. Possibly a regularly used one and one or two big ones for situations.
No. Because you as a DPS are trying to alter the role of one person in the group who also wants to play their role, not the one you want them to. We get to keep our array of defensive CD's and get out of jail cards but that dude over there must be forced into a fundamental change of their role to healer dps hybrid who we can then blame them for TWO THINGS.
How does it feel when I say from the perspective of my Mw. That Tanks should have CD's for defence, and all DPS ones should be removed..Not so nice is it when someone starts talking about fundamentally altering your game?
@@musicilike69 If that was aimed at me, I think you fundamentally misunderstood my post. I'm trying to look for ways to keep defensives somewhat relevant but make them less useful in raid settings by designing fights that make defensives useful but not mandatory.
And for the second part, that's exactly what @JustAnotherGuy1991 suggested. I'm not a high end raider so it doesn't matter that much to me either way, but I do hate to see Blizzard balance the game around the tenth of a percent that actually do +15s and mythic raids.
@@willythemailboy2 Noo, not aimed at you at all mate. More at what seems a growing body of opinion that healers are not doing enough.
Healers are kind of the reason PvP in the game is shit too imo. Would be a fun experiment to see what the game is like if all damage is avoidable, and there are no pure healers.
The holy trinity should just go away. GW2 had the right idea.
Main Pala heal 15y here:
it started slow. use crusader strike when not spamming heals, use Jugment use this and that.
1 addon ago i realised i´m just a DD in heal spec for bad/under tuned tanks or failed movement.
i guess now i´m a dd that just does damage and if there is a single missstep we just yell at each other how bad everyone else plays.
times change man, times change.
i played cata the other day - it feels soo much slower. i was just fun instead of spammy timelimited content.
I don't want to dps as healer. If I wanted to dps, I'd play dps. Also, the problem is just encounter design. Stop making all the incoming damage do so much instantly and stop making it all avoidable damage.
Nerf defensives. Add items with defensive abilities in solo content. Healing used to be fun.
I'm a healer and I want to do a shitload of dps. Holy priest right now is so fun but they gotta bring back old shockadin and healing will be perfect
If DPS wants "more damage" and less heals they should just go play FFXIV.
TLDR pve players are never happy
Just make the target dummies drop Mythic loot already and be done with it. Thats what the people want
Sounds like this expansion will have ALOT of gameplay drama, and that's BAD
this game has been out for four hundred thousuand years why is this only a problem now?
Just nerf healing and maybe some of the defensives than they'll have gameplay and they won't be so bored. Instead of doing more damage and all that other shit. They could just fix the problem head on rate in front of them not all the other people and things that don't have nothing to do with the healing problem except for defensives minor nerfs for those.
Mythics just need to be shortened to 2 bosses, and require hard CC on packs, it slows down the clears, but with less bosses it can be done in the same time. Pulling 10+ mobs at a time every pull or not getting the timer is why healers are pushed to do damage, would be more fun for healers if the job was to lock down an enemy and heal the team. Its immersion breaking to be a holy priest out DPSing your DPS team members...