Great interview. I agree with much of the solution, but wish you had asked two questions: 1.) While we have definitely things to repent of as an evangelical movement, isn't it also true that our culture has been moving away from Christ? And this movement isn't just in reaction to our failure to love like Jesus, but for other reasons? Wouldn't then it not matter necessarily how others perceive us unless it was for areas where we were at fault in God's eyes? [In other words, how do we not aim for a "middle" but for the Biblical where yes, we want to be known for loving like Christ but knowing some may still hate us and malign us, etc. In this increasingly negative world (as Aaron Renn has noted), what are we called to do? 2.) Set aside the title of "rebranding." Much of what was in the interview was about what we can do -- about secular marketing. What about this is deeply rooted first in a theology from the Bible rather than marketing wisdom from lessons learned from Dominos or Tylenol? This is not a minor question. It is one thing if Johnson & Johnson realized they could just better seal the package but Tylenol was safe and effective. It is another if there is an effort to say Tylenol itself is harmful and should never be used. [That is where we are at today in some circles. The very message itself of the Gospel is seen as harmful. Yes, our treating others with love might help win some over, but if we avoid addressing the underlying message that the Gospel itself is harmful, we will see fewer results. It is both / and, not either / or, that I see us called to in the NT (such as Acts 4 and 5 where doing good -- healing the lame -- was not enough. They also proclaimed the truth boldly.)
Time to get back to authentically caring & feeding people as Jesus did with sermon on the mount ( truth about life issues) & then literally afterwards feeding 5,000!
Excellent stuff!!! Culture has to learn Christians aren't any different from them..Were all sinners saved by faith..God "chooses the weak and foolish"...
A great convo. I feel the argument made by some Christians that we are not being fairly portrayed or described by the culture is more complex than Jeff made it though. His prescriptions seem true, and were challenging for me. Let's not be victims. Let's own what is true, and work to more truly adorn the gospel with love and truth, not vitriol and culture warring. BUT, I wonder if this is an American regional issue. Are we mainly describing culture warring southern white evangelicals who have turned to Trump and MAGA to try to keep preeminence & influence rather than tribal decline in their society? To put it simply, perhaps a caricature, but true for some sadly: their faith is more in Trump for the future of the Church than it is in Christ. This Christian decline of influence has already happened on the coasts. I'm in California. Born and raised in the Bay Area, now live in LA, and have some experience in the Pacific Northwest too. I rarely feel or seem to be fairly portrayed by the blue state progressive liberals around me here on the west coast. The media, Hollywood, and university communities focus on Trumpian Christians, and Christian sexual ethics, and then vilify Christians. I don't see fair criticism, due diligence in research, nuance, and don't even identify with what they’re criticizing, except for the fact that I do hold to Christian/Biblical sexual ethics. Take Jeff's whole story with Dwight. That Marketer was from Seattle. He acknowledged that he was shocked and surprised at Jeff's character and contributions to society, and none of his progressive coastal colleagues even believe his description of kind, loving, humble Christians. And so we have coastal progressives who don't portray or view Christians in good faith and truthfully. And so, my main thoughts or points are: (1) it appears to me that it is the southern white evangelicals who are newly feeling the loss of influence that European evangelicals and coastal evangelicals have had to adapt to already, and who don't know how to live as exiles in America, and that they are the ones damaging "the brand" the most...maybe we need a regional approach...this is sure to offend my southern white evangelical brethren (2) many coastal progressives are not acting in good faith and fairly engaging with Christians and the Church, they go nut-picking...they want cultural preeminence, as most folks do, and will of course sinfully angle for it by spinning straw man portrayals of who they see as their ideological opponents. (3) Jeff may not see this because he is in Texas, the Bible Belt, where much of the "Brand damaging" is occurring, and so he is focused on that. I don't think Jeff's prescriptions are wrong. They ring true to me. But, I think the issue or concern that some Christians have that we are not being fairly portrayed is more true than is often given credence. And the issues facing red state evangelicals are different from blue state evangelicals, and perhaps we are speaking past one another.
As I listen I find myself asking whether there was a brand that would have made Christianity acceptable to Sodom and Gomorrah. Or to the first century religious leaders of the Judaeans who killed him.
ADVICE TO SO-CALLED CHRISTIANS: Stop being standoffish. Stop ignoring the suffering in the life of a repentant newcomer (help him when he asks for help instead of doing the non-costly "I'll pray for you" thing.). Listen to confessions of newcomers. Teach your congregants to obey everything he has commanded: content plus method (Great Commission. It's in the Bible!). And ... stop lying to people. .. stop the constant lying! Woe unto those who act like Pharisees.
Sadly the way that the name evangelical has become toxic is not just an American problem, because of the news and social media now in Europe among non evangelicals, in the general population and media, people now connect evangelical with a certain strain of American politics.
EVANLOGICAL C. S. Lewis was one. Christianity needs to find an entry point into the culture. Perhaps the “sacred cow” that needs to be let go of is Evangelism. Maybe the entry point into today’s culture is “Evanlogicalism” In the first century, people were so much less knowledgeable about things in general. We now think that we are far more knowledgeable about many more things. Modern man "knows" so much, that he is not afraid of God, while the ancients feared Him. Many today, would not even know to which meaning of the word “fear” that pertains. Thus, man uses his own logical powers to run his life and others. He sees little use for Christianity. Heaven is Perfect. We are not. Like a sports team that has lost even one game, we cannot make our own “record” perfect. A sports league commissioner, on appeal, can overturn that one lost game. Christ is the only one, who on appeal, provides us with an unblemished life. Other theologies state that all one needs to get to Heaven, is a “winning record,” more good deeds than bad. Such a record is not perfection. How could Heaven be perfect if imperfection is allowed to enter? If logic in humans begins where the mind connects with the heart, Christianity is the Logical Choice.
“Jesus had a wide welcome to a narrow path.”
That’s INCREDIBLE!!! 💥💥💥
Great interview. I agree with much of the solution, but wish you had asked two questions: 1.) While we have definitely things to repent of as an evangelical movement, isn't it also true that our culture has been moving away from Christ? And this movement isn't just in reaction to our failure to love like Jesus, but for other reasons? Wouldn't then it not matter necessarily how others perceive us unless it was for areas where we were at fault in God's eyes? [In other words, how do we not aim for a "middle" but for the Biblical where yes, we want to be known for loving like Christ but knowing some may still hate us and malign us, etc. In this increasingly negative world (as Aaron Renn has noted), what are we called to do? 2.) Set aside the title of "rebranding." Much of what was in the interview was about what we can do -- about secular marketing. What about this is deeply rooted first in a theology from the Bible rather than marketing wisdom from lessons learned from Dominos or Tylenol? This is not a minor question. It is one thing if Johnson & Johnson realized they could just better seal the package but Tylenol was safe and effective. It is another if there is an effort to say Tylenol itself is harmful and should never be used. [That is where we are at today in some circles. The very message itself of the Gospel is seen as harmful. Yes, our treating others with love might help win some over, but if we avoid addressing the underlying message that the Gospel itself is harmful, we will see fewer results. It is both / and, not either / or, that I see us called to in the NT (such as Acts 4 and 5 where doing good -- healing the lame -- was not enough. They also proclaimed the truth boldly.)
Time to get back to authentically caring & feeding people as Jesus did with sermon on the mount ( truth about life issues) & then literally afterwards feeding 5,000!
Excellent stuff!!! Culture has to learn Christians aren't any different from them..Were all sinners saved by faith..God "chooses the weak and foolish"...
« In an us versus them world we have to model for the people that we lead … We are an us for them world »
Beautifully said ❤
A great convo. I feel the argument made by some Christians that we are not being fairly portrayed or described by the culture is more complex than Jeff made it though. His prescriptions seem true, and were challenging for me. Let's not be victims. Let's own what is true, and work to more truly adorn the gospel with love and truth, not vitriol and culture warring.
BUT, I wonder if this is an American regional issue. Are we mainly describing culture warring southern white evangelicals who have turned to Trump and MAGA to try to keep preeminence & influence rather than tribal decline in their society? To put it simply, perhaps a caricature, but true for some sadly: their faith is more in Trump for the future of the Church than it is in Christ. This Christian decline of influence has already happened on the coasts. I'm in California. Born and raised in the Bay Area, now live in LA, and have some experience in the Pacific Northwest too. I rarely feel or seem to be fairly portrayed by the blue state progressive liberals around me here on the west coast. The media, Hollywood, and university communities focus on Trumpian Christians, and Christian sexual ethics, and then vilify Christians. I don't see fair criticism, due diligence in research, nuance, and don't even identify with what they’re criticizing, except for the fact that I do hold to Christian/Biblical sexual ethics.
Take Jeff's whole story with Dwight. That Marketer was from Seattle. He acknowledged that he was shocked and surprised at Jeff's character and contributions to society, and none of his progressive coastal colleagues even believe his description of kind, loving, humble Christians. And so we have coastal progressives who don't portray or view Christians in good faith and truthfully.
And so, my main thoughts or points are: (1) it appears to me that it is the southern white evangelicals who are newly feeling the loss of influence that European evangelicals and coastal evangelicals have had to adapt to already, and who don't know how to live as exiles in America, and that they are the ones damaging "the brand" the most...maybe we need a regional approach...this is sure to offend my southern white evangelical brethren (2) many coastal progressives are not acting in good faith and fairly engaging with Christians and the Church, they go nut-picking...they want cultural preeminence, as most folks do, and will of course sinfully angle for it by spinning straw man portrayals of who they see as their ideological opponents. (3) Jeff may not see this because he is in Texas, the Bible Belt, where much of the "Brand damaging" is occurring, and so he is focused on that.
I don't think Jeff's prescriptions are wrong. They ring true to me. But, I think the issue or concern that some Christians have that we are not being fairly portrayed is more true than is often given credence. And the issues facing red state evangelicals are different from blue state evangelicals, and perhaps we are speaking past one another.
Nailed it!
As I listen I find myself asking whether there was a brand that would have made Christianity acceptable to Sodom and Gomorrah. Or to the first century religious leaders of the Judaeans who killed him.
If people hate us because of Jesus, we should Biblically expect that.
But if they hate Jesus because of us, something is wrong.
The Great Commandment (agape) is the answer. Dumbass individualist "personal salvation" rhetoric is not the answer.
ADVICE TO SO-CALLED CHRISTIANS: Stop being standoffish. Stop ignoring the suffering in the life of a repentant newcomer (help him when he asks for help instead of doing the non-costly "I'll pray for you" thing.). Listen to confessions of newcomers. Teach your congregants to obey everything he has commanded: content plus method (Great Commission. It's in the Bible!). And ... stop lying to people. .. stop the constant lying! Woe unto those who act like Pharisees.
Sadly the way that the name evangelical has become toxic is not just an American problem, because of the news and social media now in Europe among non evangelicals, in the general population and media, people now connect evangelical with a certain strain of American politics.
EVANLOGICAL
C. S. Lewis was one.
Christianity needs to find an entry point into the culture. Perhaps the “sacred cow” that needs to be let go of is Evangelism. Maybe the entry point into today’s culture is “Evanlogicalism”
In the first century, people were so much less knowledgeable about things in general. We now think that we are far more knowledgeable about many more things.
Modern man "knows" so much, that he is not afraid of God, while the ancients feared Him. Many today, would not even know to which meaning of the word “fear” that pertains. Thus, man uses his own logical powers to run his life and others. He sees little use for Christianity.
Heaven is Perfect. We are not. Like a sports team that has lost even one game, we cannot make our own “record” perfect. A sports league commissioner, on appeal, can overturn that one lost game. Christ is the only one, who on appeal, provides us with an unblemished life.
Other theologies state that all one needs to get to Heaven, is a “winning record,” more good deeds than bad. Such a record is not perfection. How could Heaven be perfect if imperfection is allowed to enter?
If logic in humans begins where the mind connects with the heart, Christianity is the Logical Choice.
Thanks for sharing these thoughts Richard
Also suggest leading with John 12:47 and holding off on John 3:16 until there is some understanding of need by those who are approached.