The saddest thing about DX is that you have to fight JC to hear his best line in this game. "You want to plunge the world into chaos? Come take it from me."
I got Paul once in that fight, but I never could kill JC... Despite its flaws, I did enjoy it. Not a worthy successor to the first game, but how could any game possibly be?
How about a soda? You can have this candy bar. Or this GEP gun. The 10mm ammo. Maybe the pistol and the electric prod. This LAM. The EMP grenades. Tear gas? A "smart" lockpick's always handy. Nanotech tech tool? You can have this scope. I have some bad news.I got into a firefight with some MJ12 troops.I'm now dead. *deusex_maledeathscream.ogg*
It's kind of jarring to see JC Denton without his sunglasses. I realize that he's computer-generated now, and would have no need for them but I'm accustomed to seeing JC with his shades.
I think that was an intentional change. In the first game, he has to play his cards close to his chest, keep his alliances to himself. Here, he's ready to be completely transparent, and for humanity to be transparent with him.
Yeah it kinda puts me off. Even if he looks better-rendered, the Invisible War animation style looks like Max Steel or some such 90's CG cartoon. The shades gave him an iconic, if not ironic impression that at least blended with the theme.
_"If you start with minds that are lucid, knowledgeable and emotionally sound, the needs of government change dramatically."_ This is why governments prefer citizens who are uninformed, weak-willed and easily dominated.
eomdri It's not in the government's interests to have a population that is educated and capable of critical thinking. Those kind of people undermine its efforts and interfere with its ability to carry out wars and concentrate the countrys wealth and power in the small number of families and corporations who actually run things. A population that is uneducated can always be tricked or frightened into acting against their own interests. (Of course, in totalitarian regimes, you don't even have to pretend to need the support of the people. You can start wars, you can prolong them, you can put anyone in uniform for any length of time without ever having to worry about the slightest political backlash.)
Catzilla I think Denton means well, but he is not even a normal human to begin with, he was manufactured like his brothers. he only knows humans in theory.
I like the Helios ending and for this reason. "Helios will communicate not assimilate. Life will go on as usual." Helios - "You will be who you will be. We are our choices." Helios will bring people and ideas together and find a way to satisfy every one. That's way I like the Helios ending. P.S. Of course i would be sceptical of making such a choice
The only reasonable thing to do was to send the whole facility back to the hell, where it belonged. Canon ending has no sense also, blowing it up with merging is beyond retarded.
At a glance, the Helios ending seems perfect. But there are some potential red flags: - When Alex suggests people would be administered with antidepressants regardless of their will as a means of behavioral control, JC doesn't deny it - In Helios' speech, Helios sounds like he's rather disappointed that after 125 years, people still don't want to entirely open themselves up to each other's thoughts. Helios communicates rather than assimilates, so he apparently can't forcibly transfer thoughts between people unless those people agree to it. He thinks this is stupid and that "the self" is a frontier that should be overcome. Indeed, that would be kind of like telepathy and let people truly understand each other at a glance (like Helios understands them individually), but it's a vast underestimation of human need for privacy. Seems like the communication between Helios and every person is a single, direct line between him and that person, and the consent is contingent on other people not having access to these thoughts, which Helios doesn't like very much. - In one of the cancelled sequels to Invisible War, apparently Paul Denton was supposed to be leading a disconnected resistance to the Helios utopia. Paul was one of the biggest proponents of the merger and one of JC's biggest supporters, so he must have seen some really serious problems with the arrangements if he chose to rebel.
@@SaturnineXTS That’s really interesting to hear, I think without the context of the potential sequels it’s still the best ending though, as it’s kind of the final chapter of everything that was accomplished in the first game, and every other ending is even more deeply flawed than the issues presented in the Helios ending. I also think it’s important to note the amount of deception and context surrounding the Helios route that makes it far more interesting: - Many of the other characters tell the player that Helios will be just like the Omar and that JC is both totally crazy and no longer existent, that the Helios AI absorbed him. This is in fact a lie being told to Alex and is proven to be so when the player defeats Denton, after the AI is destroyed and JC is “no longer a god”, he doesn’t just stop living, he is in fact fully cognizant and himself, showcasing that the Helios AI does in fact just integrate, and not assimilate. - JCs plan however is certainly flawed due to its centralization, if the Helios ai goes down or is destroyed (just like in all other endings and in the collapse that preceded invisible war), society will completely collapse again due to over reliance on its technology. Sure, people will still exist, but communications and lines of thought will break down. A singular integrated system always will have the flaw of a single point of failure. “Too big to fail” does not mean incapable of failing, but instead that when it does fail total collapse occurs. Helios and the Omar may allow for a collective consciousness, but any weapon or problem that directly attacks the conscious of that singular mind would lead to cascading failures Every other ending however has bigger problems or the same exact problem, under the Illuminati nothing changes, and people needlessly suffer, and I would assume that the Omar would become an even bigger threat. Under the Omar, the real humanity dies to make way for an entirely new post-human species, and under the Templar ending its a hateful, medically suppressed, fearful, antiquated society that just shuffles the deck until the problem eventually circles back around again.
@@courier6960 Yeah, it's still the best ending by far. The Illuminati are just conservative right-wingers wanting to emphasize and exploit the fact that some people are better than others, rather than making people truly equal. That's nothing more than selfishness and thirst for power talking. The ending has the world in a peaceful and prosperous state (pretty much linear continuation of today's trajectories), but it's accomplished with the help of cynically pushed religion and ubiquitous surveillance.
It’s a combination of a few things. Time, setting a higher standard for yourself, reading books, and experience. ‘Want’ it to happen and you’ll eventually get there.
"Wisdom must first be human. You must start with what a human sees and feels. But wisdom must also be knowledgeable, logical, and fair to billions of other beings." Deus Ex is such a quotable series, I love it!
@@monolyth421 That actually works, as the only trigger for Paul dying is you jumping out the back window. If you do literally anything else (including getting your ass kicked in the raid) EXCEPT jump through the window, he'll live Even if you kill all of the UNATCO goons, if you turn around and jump out the window he'll spontaneously die anyway since the game assumes that by going out the back you took the stealth option.
@@doonglerules According to the Deus Ex Wiki, you can even hide inside the wardrobe in the bedroom (you'd have to destroy the hanging clothes first, however) or even inside the secret compartment behind the bookshelves, and Paul will instantly turn into God Mode Incarnate and kill all of the MJ-12 troops and MIBs himself, and you won't even have to lift a finger. Pretty deceptive for a guy who's supposedly on the verge of dying from UNATCO's killswitch. I have yet to test this out myself, as I didn't even find out about it until after I finished that part. Now I'll have to test it out my next playthrough of the game. I just now beat it again after not having played it for years, so I'll want to go through Invisible War again (was my introduction to the series, so naturally, despite its shortcomings and technical wonkiness, it'll always have a special place in my heart).
I like how Metal Gear Solid 4's Patriot AI is basically the counter-argument to why a government run by a computer system might be efficient, but immoral. Regardless, I supported this ending for Deus Ex.
The point of the merge with JC and Helios was so that Helios can see the world through a humans mind, and understand how a human feels and why that is.
The patriots AI was created by a group of influencers who held the philosophers legacy. They were effectively the illuminati and controlled all the worlds wealth and governments from the shadows post-soviet union collapse. The patriots are effectively an extension of Zero's will, whereas Helios is an benevolent being using his power to control humanity as one, and to remove the conflict of interests shared by human beings and their government.
(I have a philosophy PhD and my day job is being a philosopher for real. Unfortunately, Deus Ex's philosophical depth is quite shallow. But it does manage to reflect a zeitgeist of a certain computer culture at the turn of the millennium, the same milieu that spawned The Matrix and its search for 'authenticity'. It's an interesting relic of the past, I guess)
JC:Oh my God Alex, a bomb ! Alex:A bomb ? JC:A bomb ! Alex:I already have some explosives...Get out of there ! JC: Wait..relax..I pulled out the REMOTE CONTROL ! .. Alex: A bomb is bad choice for a close rage combat :D The mix idea came from the Bomb-compilation from a very creative guy, thanks for him :)
The part about Helios being so advanced that general concepts were obsolete to it, that was pretty cool. A bit of a shame Invisible War didn't have more JC Denton, like Yakuza 5 where Majima barely shows up at the end.
Great to find others who are familiar with both Deus Ex and Yakuza. Wonder if the folks who worked on the Yakuza games also borrowed from Deus Ex when they designed the Amons. Also, JC Denton and Kiryu went into exile and isolation after their story arcs ended, so there.
Even in the Black Sheep of the franchise, JC Denton is still a badass that does not change. Still, I'm annoyed at how much the prequels have so drastically made the past so ridiculously Sci-Fi and "Ghost in the Shell/Blade Runner" that it pretty much makes Deus Ex and Invisible War seem to take place in an alternative time-line. While Human Revolution and Mankind Divided are good games, you can tell that Eidos did NOT want to make a Deus Ex game with what they did.
So true. I guess they felt that if they didn't "future it up," it wouldn't appeal to newcomers/younger gamers that would compare it to everything else, like the futurized direction Call of Duty was being taken.
+KushAstronaut Then why does Gunther look like someone smashed his face into a table multiple times/incredibly cumbersome and Jensen looks like 100 times more advanced even though it’s the other way around
@@kylemason2836 I recommend downloading a mod called Helios Texture Overhaul mod for Deus Ex. There are two versions of the mod, there are the default package with better textures and the other is the Human Revolution-styled textures. It's way better than the HDTP character models...
These conversations are highlights of the Deus Ex series. Not many games have discussions on politics, philosophy, and government. In my humble opinion, colleges and universities should recommend these underrated classics to students. They can play them or simply RUclips them, but they should learn from them.
kristopherm3 How fortunate that I never owned the franchise in my home because I was too cheap to afford any of the titles. You're free to call my statement BS if you want. Anyway, how has "Deus Ex" changed your life?
Tony Chang Deus Ex is arguably my favourite game ever, it's so thought provoking and I see many areas of today's world which look like the start of 'cyberpunk'.
All the philosophies, ideologies, plots, sub-plots, and game play in this game I love soooo much I still think about this game and it's conversations a lot still till this day. I wish there more more games like this out to fill that cyber-punk hole in the video game industry
+Elround4 I believe their making another Deus Ex and there is another game called Cyberpunk 2077 being made by the same people who made The Witcher so we'll get our Cyberpunk fix soon
A small concern I have with JC's plan for elevation is that, in doing this, individual identities are somewhat lost. We are defined through our flaws and strengths, our struggles, and through them we can grow. Though, there are still plenty of trials and difficulties to grow from even without some disadvantages. On top of that, if the society were structured like JC's proposal, that level of growth might be rendered obsolete. Most humans no longer have to build up the mental resistance to seeing gore, as we don't have to slaughter our own meat. We don't have to cope with the intense fear and anger in combat with a predator, and I think it's benefited us by giving us time to reflect on other matters like philosophy. There's a richness of experience that we can't have if everyone's minds are exactly the same, but willful ignorance, dogmatism, and stubbornness are the prime causes of things like war and bigotry, and are also why it's so hard to honestly discuss the different ideas we have of the world. The elimination of these traits doesn't sound so bad, so long as a human's flawed perspective isn't used as a basis for what constitutes these things. And in the end, considering how it is modeled to work with human desires, I imagine Helios would give enough room for neurological variation to give us a sense of individuality, but with the elimination of more serious flaws. Not just the traits listed earlier that cause so many problems, but things like schizophrenia, severe autism, PTSD, depression, and Alzheimer's disease. Plus, many people actively want to change their personalities but struggle to do so. If we could have some measure of control over how our own minds are melded, asking the Helios AI to repress our anger or irrational fear, then individuality is maintained while people can still strive to improve themselves. Say what you want about the gameplay of Invisible War, the philosophy of Helios and post-merger JC Denton is amazing, and it grabbed me the instant I played the original. It's the best proposal for a utopia I have ever heard. I genuinely think it would work, and if I had the opportunity to implement it, I would do so gladly. I'd even be happy to be Helios' host, regardless of what it does to my identity; this level of freedom from the flaws of human nature is something I can only dream of.
It only communicates not assimilates, after playing this game an following dc ending i trully think it would be the only way to unify all humanity, understanding one another
The dialogue here is great. You realize Denton is like the other tyrants: "Upon consideration, you'll see that this arrangement is for the best." Essentially saying the exact same thing any other dictator would say, that if you just agree with them then everything will be fine. There's no way to completely calculate, perfect, and refine the needs of every individual to make a magically perfect society. Helios thought it would bring order, but the universe doesn't work on total order. And notice he doesn't answer the question of whether or not he would be a god in this new society.
Solomon Kane >smug anime girl as an avatar >Robert E. Howard character username >"The Pity Repose" (cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/ob//internet_graphic1.jpg) Boy, you've sure convinced me that you're not mad right now.
JC ending reminds me of this anime episode which I cant remember by name; A stranger enters a town that seems very quiet and any people he faces gets out of his sight. Later he is told that the inhabitants gained the ability to communicate and understand everyone through telepathy. This however meant that every bad thought or characteristic of any individual would be noticed and soon the village fell into chaos until everyone went hiding in their own houses. Thus robots did all the daily tasks.
Alex: "What if I don't want someone peeking into my mind?" While I appreciate that JC brought up de Tocqueville, whom which I am now adding to my reading list, his response of "Trust me, lol, this is for the best" is pretty weak. Narratively speaking, I think it would have been best for him to mirror Morpheus: "Human beings feel pleasure when they are watched. I have recorded their smiles as I tell them who they are.", it would've been much more impactful. I don't necessarily agree with it, but goddamn, would it have been powerful character development.
It’s true, but it’s deliberate. Every side has an obvious weakness in their argument. Remember when Alex is talking to Nicolette DuClare: Alex: “You want to maintain disparity?” Nicolette: “Not disparity; difference.” I always took that as a dismissal of his question.
@@Rashaed It's also not *necessarily* a weakness, as much as a spot JC wanted to pivot away from because he believed it was a rabbit hole of unproductive conversation. He is trying to get Alex to do what he wants, which is a kind of manipulation, but arguably everyone does that. I couldn't, I want to argue every point and discuss every part of the morality and philosophy of things. Frankly I'd enjoy a long philosophical debate that goes into that matter but, most people wouldn't, and JC knows he needs to move quickly. He's also a bit dismissive because Alex isn't *really* providing an argument. He's saying "that makes me uncomfortable". We accept a lot of uncomfortable ideas in government, begrudgingly, knowingly, or ignorantly. This would be another one. What he's not saying but implying is effectively this: The reasons we're uncomfortable with someone looking into our mind, and more broadly why we desire and need privacy, is because constant judgement is highly uncomfortable. We desire judgement to a point, but we need to be able to keep our secrets from one another in case someone will interpret it ignorantly, use it to hurt us, judge us unfairly, and so on. Our need for privacy evolved as a consequence of human social structure. Helios isn't that, he's a fundamentally different kind of entity. His judgement would be as informed and unbiased as the entire body of human knowledge can make it. His intentions are (hopefully), fair and benevolent. Its purpose isn't to hold opinions about that person, but rather to inform what to do next in reaction to the person's thoughts and desires, as well as those of everyone else. It's trying to figure out what humanity wants, genuinely interested in making people safe, prosperous, and happy. In the same way that you have to open up to a therapist or other professionals about your feelings to get treatment, you have to open up about your *true* desires for Helios to help people. If everyone limits their desires through the lens of conventionality and judgement, the result is heavily skewed towards mainstream thought. This makes a lot of assumptions about the AI being benevolent but, if it IS? Then, JC is right. General ideas like privacy and discomfort in the face of surveillance, aren't absolute. I actually think Helios could achieve roughly the same result without privacy invasion but, I don't know what issues that solution would have.
@@YukonHexsun "He's also a bit dismissive because Alex isn't really providing an argument. He's saying "that makes me uncomfortable". " Which begs the question on Helios's influence on JC, because Alex referred it "anti-depressants for the masses". I know of another, "opiate for the masses". Alex is right to question if it sees itself as god, which is also blown past.
If I was in Jc and DX invisible wars protagonist shoes i would choose the New god. There is more than enough proof that the flaw is in human Nature itself, we are reaching a point that we need to evolve to something more, and honestly the mere presence of someone to hear you, your struggles, pain and frustrations, and that same omnipotent entity being capable of guiding you to become a better self is something that we already express in our societies, we struggle for direction and a sense of belonging in a huge world, anxiety depression and isolation are the main drives of many errant behaviours so why not give it a chance? If the world is going to end anyway why not give it its best chance to suceed
A benevolent being free of human ambitions and motivations that is solely interested in establishing a post-scarcity world democracy where every voice is heard and nobody is born in poverty or oppression? Hell yeah
This seems similar to the system of government that the Geth Collective has in Mass Effect 2 and 3; every single Geth program in the network actively participates in the process of making decisions, and they build a consensus based on the views and inputs of every Geth program. This process of decision-making would be impossibly slow for organic beings, but the Geth collective can think and communicate at such speeds that they can come to a decision within minutes.
It's funny to read the concerns people have about Helios and JC Denton because much of those concerns have already occurred. Like privacy. These days its getting easier to track the actions of an individual back to him/her. Not only that, everyone already "spies" on each other. In fact, they already embrace putting their own information online, and it would be hyprocritical of us to argue for privacy in the first place. People are also willingly forming a larger, creative, collective, without the need or even the needs of assimilation. All of these actions are done by the people, and in DX:IW, it's no different, you just have an AI to supplement these efforts instead. As Morpheus said in the first Deus Ex, "I was made to assist you". Helios is no different, in thr sense that it is acting as an assistant for JC Denton.
The problem is that this information is being used in service of those truly in power, which is a bunch of wealthy plutocrats. Unless you live in China, then it's an oppressive state with facial recognition. This is the key reason why privacy is important; being 100% private is not important on its own, but in the context where anyone is trying to screw you over, it's vital. You need privacy to be able to fight the systems that oppress you, because without the potential for improving or overthrowing them, progress is impossible. A benevolent AI "god", makes that idea a lot more complicated. An AI could be like Helios in this game, or it could be a perfected version of the Chinese facial recognition and social standing programs. People will sacrifice privacy out of a desire to feel connected to others, as we are social animals. They will open themselves up to others, though many find this upsetting because they know there are bad people out there who will take advantage of that information. It's always about the threat of being screwed with, that's what comes to mind. I don't think most people see privacy as an end, in and of itself.
The people who are too easily swayed by the Helios ending choice likely have not grown up or suffered under communism. There will always be those in power that will manipulate the system. The idea of a 100% fair and balanced AI that is incorruptible for is a fantasy, in the end of the day someone has to program it, there will always be flaws. We are already essentially freely giving up away all of our privacy today in the name of convenience, we don't even need an AI to force us. In history this type of (communist) utopia has never worked. This AI idea is really digital communism. Transhumanism will be exploited as slavery, digitizing yourself and incorporating parts that you don't own takes away from your freedom and control (as shown in Human Revolution and Mankind Divided). We are already seeing the effects of this today.
@@someguy43210 You really need to examine this more, or at least listen to what JC is saying here - theres no corruptible human element present, in this dialogue it talks about how the middle man with his own motivations is entirely gone from the equation, as are the motivations of the people at the top. The first game goes to great length to make it abundantly clear that Helios whole motivation is helping humanity and also controlling it, with either Bob Page or JC at the helm to give it a look at what humans actually want. Theres no corruption, no programmer, it's just the living, breathing manifestation of conscience. People buy into it for the fact that Helios simply isn't wrong in any way, shape or form - even the matter of "taking control away from humanity" is solved because JC is still a human being at the same time as being a machine, and just like what governments are technically supposed to be routes the voice of what equates to every human being through his mind. Saying anything against that would invalidate any argument because the whole idea is that it's supposed to be flawless. The only thing I can think of that would, in a real-life scenario be able to go wrong is people going off the grid, which is just stupid but understandable given that if you don't, like us from behind the screen, know that Helios' sole motivation is aiding humanity. Theres also the logistical side of things of having a computer with enough processing power to literally process every single thought, period. And maybe internet speeds, but I'd guess in 2071 they'd be at terrabyte speed even in africa.
Privacy is an issue of greedy individuals and corporations, not of a benevolent overseer. Helios+JC represents a mediator that would oversee and prevent those piracy issues from getting out of hand like they are in reality. We are no being overseen by benevolent AI, but rather by greedy people being greedy and selling our personal data for about $3 per quarter. We are living in the Illuminati timeline or perhaps one where the Majestic 12 won.
All of politics can be seen by the two kinds of people who listen to this plan. Those that think it would be heaven, and those that think it would be horrifying
With the last ones telling the truth. We already had this thing, it is called communism and it never worked. Had a few million people living in hell or being killed in the process.
An actually conceivable way to achieve a true utopia. Where all human needs are met, and every individual are neither abandoned, nor put in power to oppress others. All are equal, all voices are heard, and none are oppressed. Resource destribution are completely automated, so all individual needs are met completely. Instantaneous, and direct democracy. No poverty. No homelessness. No crime. No war. No racial, gender, racial, or national tension, since none of that would ever be needed anymore. Its f**king wonderful.
***** Nearly the total of our species can agree on some things. We want to be appreciated. We want our voices/opinions to be heard. We want our basic needs to be met, food, water, a home. And we want other needs to be met, like job safety, education, healthcare, child care, safety, a just law system, all provided in some form or another, without corruption getting in the way. You now agree 100% with 99.9% of humanity. This is literally a solution that would try to find the best possible answer to meet literally everyone's needs, without harming the needs of any other individual. It is literally its sole function. It can calculate over a hundred ways to give you a balanced diet tomorrow, with only things you like to be delivered to your door, in a nano second. It can figure out how to plan road building, without harming the health of nearby residents, wildlife, or travel time. It can switch all of earth's energy to green energy in less than a decade. An actually manageable, and smoothly run bureaucracy. No more waiting in line, no more bad service, no more sub par safety checks, no more faulty equipment. All production and transport could be 100% automatized. Meaning all resources could be gathered and distributed so none would ever even know what the word "poor" would mean other than in theory. No one will ever be homeless again. No one will ever starve again. No one, will ever be unheard or abandoned ever again. Its a utopia. Could be brighter, but it has the potential to be a pretty freaking bright one. (I'm sorry for the wall of text, I really just love... well humanity. So any seemingly functional utopia gets me in all sorts of fan-boying)
But don't you think that having different opinions will always lead to disagreement and complaints and eventually people would start fighting with each other? since it's the nature of humanity? i just cannot see when this kind of society would make it alive.
I gave up and wanted to see the story. But I'm just so bored with the game itself, it's physically painful to keep trying. I've played 50 hours of the extreme boredom of Witcher 1 and I don't want to do it again. Plus, it's messing consistently with my display.
I believe losing his shades is suppose to be symbolic that he is finally able to see clearly about what the future should bring to better mankind. In the first Deus Ex, he was mostly blinded and doing other people's bidding before finding his own voice after merging w/ Helios.
You mean the endings? Deus Ex: JC Denton merging with Helios, because it's a canon ending and I like it, the perfect mix of man and machine: JC-Helios Denton. Invisible War: JC Denton Ending, also because it's canon and I believe in a next-gen civilization, as said by him, in RL I ain't afraid to try new stuff either.
Not at all. JC's merging with Helios and subsequent Singularity after the events of IW are exactly in line with my beliefs in transhumanism; which HR expounded upon in length. By itself, augmentation is not the problem for human and societal ills. The problem lies in administration and distribution, something that Helios is capable of solving. It's also something of a misnomer, this plan. Helios and JC are not trying to assimilate, individuality is not to be extinguished, that's why they seek to understand all minds, so it can act on all individual needs, tastes, and ambitions. Maybe it's just my nature as a God fearing man, but the idea of a benevolent all knowing super intelligence is the one the most appeals to me.
Anthony Clay As a fellow Transhumanist I agree. ^^ I'd like to add that the David Sarif ending slightly foreshadows/leans into the JC/Helios ending of both Dues Ex and IW. I'm in the process of playing IW and then later replaying both DE and HR to eventually but together an analysis on that perspective. : ) As for the last point, I fall in line with the stereotype most Transhumanist being non-theistic. However, I none-the-less hold fascination in the non-theistic (note that I am using that specific word choice) aspects of Buddhist thought. Likewise, my limited research on Taoism gives said supper intelligence and connecting one's mind to it some intrigue if not appeal. Do you also see an appeal to hypothetical brain-to-brain connections where people retain their individuality? Examples of this can be found in the following works of science fiction: the Conjoiners in Alastair Reynolds novel "Galactic North" and the Synergists and Neo-Synergists in the transhumanist scifi horror game "Eclipse Phase?"
Make that two of us. I always felt the Denton boys had the noblest, or at least the most well-meaning, intentions, so it made sense for me to side with them throughout the game and ultimately choose their ending.
My feeling is that they (whoever the devs would be) would change it too much and the things that make it so special (in a good way) would be nearly - if not - completely lost. Don't get me wrong, this hypothetical game would probably play really well and have a couple of new phrases like "I didn't ask for this" but they would at best be empty or at worst be twisted in a way that feed into the technophobia of recent years (I'm not saying this would be a bad thing to do in general - this is how a lot of great SF came about - only that IF this is what they did to IW instead of making a new franchise THEN that would not be to my liking). (And one of the pilots would be DLC 🤗). If instead they ended up doing a great remake then that would be awesome and I would stand corrected 😃 And everything would be totally awesome! 🤗
There is no possible way to ever achieve a true utopia. The best we can do is balance freedom and control to a point where we as a civilization are at our highest productivity and quality of life.
Its not fair that people hate this Game so much.. Its still one of my favourites oldscool Games, i loved the amazing atmosphere and soundtrack, the Omar and the freedom to do what you want. I also loved to modify my body with legal and illegal Biomods. Proud that i have the first pc edition with a booklet.. Games like this will never come back, but who i am...
The most major weakness of this game is the strength of its predecessor. Its makers have once said, that they listened to much to those, who didn't like the original game, when they made their decisions on what to change. But I guess, the game was then judged by those DID like the original game. Of course they noticed mostly, what was lacking when compared to Deus Ex 1. I'm pretty sure, the game would have been remembered quite favorably, if it wasn't a sequel to Deus Ex.
I played it and thought it was still Deus Ex, I mean I can’t begin to explain how hard it is to make a game sequel that’s better than the original in a lot of cases.
Well of course JC doesn't sound the same. He spent the last two decades merged with an ultra-advanced AI construct. Add to that the fact that he'd also been contemplating how best to essentially save humanity at the same time, and you can understand why he changed so profoundly. As for just his VOICE sounding differently, I guess Eidos just felt it was more fitting he had this strange, mechanical voice since he's cybernetic. DX1 beats the crap outta this, but it could've been more polished.
The writing in this scene is so good. In 4 minutes it covers theology, philosophy, politics and the human nature and communicates its ideas well enough to be understood. There's even another layer of irony to it, this 4 minute speech is a generality in light of just how deep these topics can go.
It was because he was going on missions all the time. Now that he has Helios' levels of processing power, he has more than enough time for book-reading
Could Ava Johnson be named named after Adam Jensen? Both are AJ, Jensen is a different spelling of Johnson. Adam was created before Eve (Ava). Co'incidence?
@@ARN012 Depends on your perspective but JC in the first game literally said to the Morpheus AI “Some people just don’t realise the dangers of indiscriminate surveillance.” JC became a very different person after merging with Icarus. Then again I played the version of Denton that blows up Area 51.
@@mikeylitchfield4651 There's a difference between indiscriminate surveillance by humans and by AI. JC-Helios understood that letting people go unchecked with the current state of technology will eventually lead to another MJ12 scenario, thus a different solution was concluded.
@@ARN012 it was pretty clear to me that he was talking about any kind of indiscriminate surveillance being dangerous as the context of the conversation in that moment of the game was morpheues and Denton debating the merits and dangers of replacing god with AI.
Say what you want about this game, when I got to this part when I was 16, I had a fricken nerd gasm. I love the philosophy and political intrigue of the series. DX HR was a masterpiece, but I wish it had a scene like this
I never saw the other endings. I didn't care. When it came time to pick between making a choice for everyone simultaneously (for some almost certainly against their "will".) or trusting in some organization with no clear workable goal It didn't even take a second. Reaching for true equality was really the only choice between "Trust me, no really, I'll be nice to everybody and help them this time." or truly giving everyone the power help themselves. It's an Easy moral choice. Do the most good.
His intentions are benign, wanting all to be equal in all ways. I just don't like the idea of people losing privacy by having their minds connected. I lose myself in my thoughts every single day, and would never want anyone peeking into what I think about.
Helios communicates with everyone but keeps peoples thoughts private from other people. Atleast i think it went like this in Deus ex. Ai is not actually someone in a sense, so no privacy is lost, no one looks what information helios has, except jc denton, but he already merged with helios.
How things are now, sure. In the context of this however, a collective effort of all humanity under an AI like Helios can achieve unimaginable things, including addressing education for all people.
- My god, JC! What happened to you?? Remember when we used to fight against the system..now you've gone completely mad. Helios really changed you brother...really changed you!
If you succeed in your fight against the system then you either become the system or move into the woods or mountains or a one bedroom apartment (and isn't this the same as being a part of the system). JC (at the time he is making his little speech here) still hasn't succeeded so he is in fact still fighting the system at this point - but now he(lios) has a plan.
That besides eliminating tech would require a KKV to annihilate the planet and thereby destroy any possibility of any organism developing a sufficient level of tech to augment themselves. In short Tracer "idea" would have been nothing more than a temporary road bump.
The idea was that by disabling all electronics across the world, it would mean that governments would scale back on a scale comprehensible to the citizens. Problem with that is, we had big government even before electronics existed. Like... waaaay before.
HQDefault correct. The idea is actually quite noble, but there are merciless conquerors in every age and scope. Maybe cutting out electronics would remove issues such as banking cartels, debt, and proxy armies, but the hands would almost definitely be changed to more barbaric forms of conquer based on who has the most goods. Potentially some isolated societies may be able to sort their shit out, but that just makes this a deck shuffle at best.
Basically his plan was to reboot civilization hoping that a better one would emerge, as the path humanity had gone down up to that point was irredeemable.
All of this shit is great. This is on par with talking with Morpheus in the first game. Great writing and ideas, as far as their being extensions from the three disparate endings of DX1. Human Revolution did the right thing and set itself before the others. There isn't a bad game in this series. As far as Invisible War, well, it's a unique protagonist with a new set of skills, travelling the globe and fighting shadows. Mankind Divided has mostly same skills, a retread of a protagonist, and virtually one city. Invisible War is a better Deus Ex game than Mankind Divided, though the mechanic / playing MD feels the most refined. Rating: GOTY, Human Revolution, Invisible War, Mankind Divided. Again, not a bad game in the series.
@DestructoMonkey "Mankind cannot be equalized in mind and body simply by uplinking to the great interwebs that is Helios." Yep, and that's why the plan *wasn't* just to uplink with helios. At 1:45 in the vid: "Address the flaws in human nature. Make all beings truly equal in both body and mind". The augs required to uplink to helios also included the kinds of physical and mental augs that JC had, eliminating or at least massively reducing the stratification in society.
JC is the one charater in Invisible War that speaks like a Deus Ex character. It's like he was written by someone who wrote the previous game, and everyone else was by a different guy.
I would say only the first Deus ex was official. IW was a catastrophe and should be made scraped from the franchise for good or remade with a whole new story/altered story. HR did good with going back to the original and paying more attention to the first game, though it will never reach the first game.
The problem with JC's plan is that it simply leaves humanity in complete stagnation, and the concept of what is knowledgeable, logical, and fair change frequently, again, Helios requires aid in understanding the human condition, and there's certainly no guarantee it will succeed.
Original had great gameplay and talked about conspiracies in great detail. Invisible War talked about other factions which was interesting like the knights and the omar and hr and mankind divided had much better voice acting and a more interesting world to roam around in. They should have taken these traits and combine them to make the perfect deus ex game.
The problem with his plan is he is still embracing democracy. Even if their minds are "enhanced", can the majority be expected to always vote fairly? And if they could, then why would their vote even be needed? Helios could govern on the concept of fairness alone.
That’s a good question. I think it’s answered by how you play the game. Do you go lethal or non-lethal? Do you use stealth or engage in combat? Do you help innocent people when possible? That may give you the answer. But Helios needs the people to vote. Or you fall back in to one of the flaws of democracy JC Denton was talking about. You would be ruling based on generalities again. Helios needs to communicate with everyone in order to make sound policy.
Don't mind me, the election results made me think of this conversation and the companion ending. I remember picking it the very first time I played back in high school because I wanted to believe in what JC was talking about. And then the ending came along and listening to Helios' monologue left a terrible taste in my mouth. Went back and went with the Omar ending over all others. That was back when I was in high school. Now that I'm older, I think I'd go with Helios instead.
Oh, the pretentiousness of leftists knows no bounds. We, the American people, do humbly beg the international left's forgiveness for acting in our national self-interests. Outside of that, I find transcendentalism to be a pipe dream at best and a Singularoty-related danger at worst.
The inadequacies of a few may lead to war and strife in our world but the responsibility for following others or not in their inadequacies is a decision left entirely up to the individual. That option must always be left open regardless of the nature of the solution. Which is why I always preferred the Renegade ending where the strong willed and single minded create a new super race of humans, each taking ultimate rsponsibility for their actions. Each human a nation unto themselves.
@DorianMichaelsIII J.C. and Helios are merged, one conciousness born of a combination of two. While Helios may have a greater influence due to it being a powerful A.I., it lacked crucial factors, such as humanity, in it. That was why it needed J.C., and J.C. needed it to come up with a better solution for controlling the world, as he stated; 'I needed the Helios merger in order to contemplate the problem effectively.'
The flaw that I see with this is the idea that lucid, knowledgeable, emotionally sound individuals would come to the same perspective as each other. "I understand but I don't agree." Unless Helios forces everyone to share in the same perspective, which would switch it from communicating to assimilating, people will never agree on everything. Eventually those disagreements will lead to friction, defiance, and even possibly war. I want the sequel to this game to address the inherent necessity of a system that allows for conflict.
Helios isn't just a superior Skype call. It's a telepathic neural network that allows everyone to read each other's minds. Everyone would understand why everyone Elise believes in different ideals, since we would all share a brain.
so the people looked up to God for help, and God answered them, in his most commanding voice : "maybe you should try getting a job"
okay, where?
@JC Glen Benton maybe you should join majestic 12, in a body bag!
@JC Glen Benton okay? And?
@JC Glen Benton ...Just another parasite.
Can God at least look at my resume and serve as a reference when the employer calls?
I like how everyone else in the game says a sentence at a time whereas JC Denton talks in complete paragraphs.
more like JC Helios
His eloquence is augmented.
Jesus Christ Denton
@@Alkair7 another from sseth i see...
You have good taste X)
My favorites from him are heh-heh and *lip smack*
The saddest thing about DX is that you have to fight JC to hear his best line in this game. "You want to plunge the world into chaos? Come take it from me."
I've always thought his best line was: "Bravery is not a function of firepower."
"I have no enemies, merely topographies of ignorance."
Strangelove *mouth smack* “What a rotten way to die.”
I got Paul once in that fight, but I never could kill JC...
Despite its flaws, I did enjoy it. Not a worthy successor to the first game, but how could any game possibly be?
Dang That's Deep bruh
"You can have this soy food."
"You have 10 seconds to have this soy food before I add you to the list of NSF casualties."
How about a soda?
You can have this candy bar.
Or this GEP gun.
The 10mm ammo.
Maybe the pistol and the electric prod.
This LAM.
The EMP grenades.
Tear gas?
A "smart" lockpick's always handy.
Nanotech tech tool?
You can have this scope.
I have some bad news.I got into a firefight with some MJ12 troops.I'm now dead. *deusex_maledeathscream.ogg*
@@TheSupremeSussy Welcome to the Coalition,brain contamination.
@@antalgergo2699 Just tea thank you
You don't look that hungry. Tell me where the future is going.
It's kind of jarring to see JC Denton without his sunglasses. I realize that he's computer-generated now, and would have no need for them but I'm accustomed to seeing JC with his shades.
I think that was an intentional change. In the first game, he has to play his cards close to his chest, keep his alliances to himself. Here, he's ready to be completely transparent, and for humanity to be transparent with him.
But... his vision is augmented.
His vision is no longer augmented.
Yeah it kinda puts me off. Even if he looks better-rendered, the Invisible War animation style looks like Max Steel or some such 90's CG cartoon. The shades gave him an iconic, if not ironic impression that at least blended with the theme.
It seems his vision is no longer AUGMENTED
What a shame.
He was a good man
@@JAKX091 *smacks lip* What a rotten way to die
Sign me up JC
*you were a good man*
who will help the widow's son?
"Alex, I....I....
I thought you were a GEP gun."
"Unatico hurt my weenie"
@Chowzan "... There's been some activity at sea. I'm gonna go check it out."
So for all of those years JC has been synthesized with Helios, not once has he ever bothered to change his clothes other than his sunglasses?
He's been in a coma since shortly after the merge.
His clothes are augumented
all ive seen from gameplay screenshots is that he took them off
Um, he he is a walking universal constructor??
Cleaner nanites...
JC's famous line "My vision is augmented" takes a whole new meaning.
_"If you start with minds that are lucid, knowledgeable and emotionally sound, the needs of government change dramatically."_
This is why governments prefer citizens who are uninformed, weak-willed and easily dominated.
Catzilla That makes no sense.
eomdri
It's not in the government's interests to have a population that is educated and capable of critical thinking. Those kind of people undermine its efforts and interfere with its ability to carry out wars and concentrate the countrys wealth and power in the small number of families and corporations who actually run things. A population that is uneducated can always be tricked or frightened into acting against their own interests.
(Of course, in totalitarian regimes, you don't even have to pretend to need the support of the people. You can start wars, you can prolong them, you can put anyone in uniform for any length of time without ever having to worry about the slightest political backlash.)
Catzilla You make it sound like we're all mind slaves to the Illuminati or something,
Catzilla
I think Denton means well, but he is not even a normal human to begin with, he was manufactured like his brothers. he only knows humans in theory.
eomdri
with the concentration of wealth in this world, that does not seem all that far fetched.
I like the Helios ending and for this reason. "Helios will communicate not assimilate. Life will go on as usual." Helios - "You will be who you will be. We are our choices."
Helios will bring people and ideas together and find a way to satisfy every one. That's way I like the Helios ending.
P.S. Of course i would be sceptical of making such a choice
The only reasonable thing to do was to send the whole facility back to the hell, where it belonged. Canon ending has no sense also, blowing it up with merging is beyond retarded.
At a glance, the Helios ending seems perfect. But there are some potential red flags:
- When Alex suggests people would be administered with antidepressants regardless of their will as a means of behavioral control, JC doesn't deny it
- In Helios' speech, Helios sounds like he's rather disappointed that after 125 years, people still don't want to entirely open themselves up to each other's thoughts. Helios communicates rather than assimilates, so he apparently can't forcibly transfer thoughts between people unless those people agree to it. He thinks this is stupid and that "the self" is a frontier that should be overcome. Indeed, that would be kind of like telepathy and let people truly understand each other at a glance (like Helios understands them individually), but it's a vast underestimation of human need for privacy. Seems like the communication between Helios and every person is a single, direct line between him and that person, and the consent is contingent on other people not having access to these thoughts, which Helios doesn't like very much.
- In one of the cancelled sequels to Invisible War, apparently Paul Denton was supposed to be leading a disconnected resistance to the Helios utopia. Paul was one of the biggest proponents of the merger and one of JC's biggest supporters, so he must have seen some really serious problems with the arrangements if he chose to rebel.
@@SaturnineXTS
That’s really interesting to hear, I think without the context of the potential sequels it’s still the best ending though, as it’s kind of the final chapter of everything that was accomplished in the first game, and every other ending is even more deeply flawed than the issues presented in the Helios ending. I also think it’s important to note the amount of deception and context surrounding the Helios route that makes it far more interesting:
- Many of the other characters tell the player that Helios will be just like the Omar and that JC is both totally crazy and no longer existent, that the Helios AI absorbed him. This is in fact a lie being told to Alex and is proven to be so when the player defeats Denton, after the AI is destroyed and JC is “no longer a god”, he doesn’t just stop living, he is in fact fully cognizant and himself, showcasing that the Helios AI does in fact just integrate, and not assimilate.
- JCs plan however is certainly flawed due to its centralization, if the Helios ai goes down or is destroyed (just like in all other endings and in the collapse that preceded invisible war), society will completely collapse again due to over reliance on its technology. Sure, people will still exist, but communications and lines of thought will break down. A singular integrated system always will have the flaw of a single point of failure. “Too big to fail” does not mean incapable of failing, but instead that when it does fail total collapse occurs. Helios and the Omar may allow for a collective consciousness, but any weapon or problem that directly attacks the conscious of that singular mind would lead to cascading failures
Every other ending however has bigger problems or the same exact problem, under the Illuminati nothing changes, and people needlessly suffer, and I would assume that the Omar would become an even bigger threat. Under the Omar, the real humanity dies to make way for an entirely new post-human species, and under the Templar ending its a hateful, medically suppressed, fearful, antiquated society that just shuffles the deck until the problem eventually circles back around again.
@@courier6960 Yeah, it's still the best ending by far. The Illuminati are just conservative right-wingers wanting to emphasize and exploit the fact that some people are better than others, rather than making people truly equal. That's nothing more than selfishness and thirst for power talking. The ending has the world in a peaceful and prosperous state (pretty much linear continuation of today's trajectories), but it's accomplished with the help of cynically pushed religion and ubiquitous surveillance.
@SaturnineXTS that makes me wish we got sequels to Infinite War instead of the prequels
I wish I could talk like JC Denton. I'm not smart enough.
What a shame
Ian Crawford shure
You need augmented sunglasses first.
It’s a combination of a few things. Time, setting a higher standard for yourself, reading books, and experience. ‘Want’ it to happen and you’ll eventually get there.
Start by reading plato
"Wisdom must first be human. You must start with what a human sees and feels. But wisdom must also be knowledgeable, logical, and fair to billions of other beings."
Deus Ex is such a quotable series, I love it!
lol
A wild autogynephile
Respect to the voice actor, who could make "nanotechnologically" not sound dumb, when said.
As bad as IW was technically I like how Paul surviving was canon given how most players had no idea you could save him.
My first playthrough I died honestly to the UNATCO raid and found him alive in the MJ12 medical area.
@@monolyth421 That actually works, as the only trigger for Paul dying is you jumping out the back window. If you do literally anything else (including getting your ass kicked in the raid) EXCEPT jump through the window, he'll live
Even if you kill all of the UNATCO goons, if you turn around and jump out the window he'll spontaneously die anyway since the game assumes that by going out the back you took the stealth option.
@Nikola me too. Feels bad now
@@monolyth421 same lol
@@doonglerules According to the Deus Ex Wiki, you can even hide inside the wardrobe in the bedroom (you'd have to destroy the hanging clothes first, however) or even inside the secret compartment behind the bookshelves, and Paul will instantly turn into God Mode Incarnate and kill all of the MJ-12 troops and MIBs himself, and you won't even have to lift a finger.
Pretty deceptive for a guy who's supposedly on the verge of dying from UNATCO's killswitch. I have yet to test this out myself, as I didn't even find out about it until after I finished that part.
Now I'll have to test it out my next playthrough of the game. I just now beat it again after not having played it for years, so I'll want to go through Invisible War again (was my introduction to the series, so naturally, despite its shortcomings and technical wonkiness, it'll always have a special place in my heart).
I can listen to JC talk all day.
Hahahah i agree. Although this is not his original voice right?
Bob VII IMHO should be the same voice actor
JC Denton explaining his plan faster than the Micro Machines guy.
I like how Metal Gear Solid 4's Patriot AI is basically the counter-argument to why a government run by a computer system might be efficient, but immoral. Regardless, I supported this ending for Deus Ex.
true but the AI is also part of JC so its a bit different than the AI and functions differently from the Patriot AI
The point of the merge with JC and Helios was so that Helios can see the world through a humans mind, and understand how a human feels and why that is.
The patriots AI was created by a group of influencers who held the philosophers legacy. They were effectively the illuminati and controlled all the worlds wealth and governments from the shadows post-soviet union collapse. The patriots are effectively an extension of Zero's will, whereas Helios is an benevolent being using his power to control humanity as one, and to remove the conflict of interests shared by human beings and their government.
Yeah but in the end they are all run by computers in Revengence.
LAA LII LUU LEE LOO
Jesus I didn't realize just how deep philosophical this series used to be
It's really a crime that Human Revolution dropped all of the exquisite nuance of the series in favor of "DURR RACISM ALLEGORY"
@@Thatoneassclown Well, was Ubisoft behind it. You can't expect much from them already during that time
@@xLeandroIX Square Enix actually, not Ubisoft.
(I have a philosophy PhD and my day job is being a philosopher for real. Unfortunately, Deus Ex's philosophical depth is quite shallow. But it does manage to reflect a zeitgeist of a certain computer culture at the turn of the millennium, the same milieu that spawned The Matrix and its search for 'authenticity'. It's an interesting relic of the past, I guess)
JC: Oh, and Alex?
Alex: Yes? Oh my God, a bomb!
JC: A BOMB.
*boom*
JC:Oh my God Alex, a bomb !
Alex:A bomb ?
JC:A bomb !
Alex:I already have some explosives...Get out of there !
JC: Wait..relax..I pulled out the REMOTE CONTROL ! ..
Alex: A bomb is bad choice for a close rage combat :D
The mix idea came from the Bomb-compilation from a very creative guy, thanks for him :)
The part about Helios being so advanced that general concepts were obsolete to it, that was pretty cool. A bit of a shame Invisible War didn't have more JC Denton, like Yakuza 5 where Majima barely shows up at the end.
Great to find others who are familiar with both Deus Ex and Yakuza. Wonder if the folks who worked on the Yakuza games also borrowed from Deus Ex when they designed the Amons. Also, JC Denton and Kiryu went into exile and isolation after their story arcs ended, so there.
@@tonyc.0451 Never noticed that about Kiryu and JC, appreciate you pointing it out. :)
@@MyGovernmentNameIsJames You're welcome. Now you're free to point out any comparisons or similarities that I missed.
@@tonyc.0451issue is the amons were made by retexturing annoying dual pistols guy
@@PhartingFeeting You mean Kazuto Arase from Yakuza/Yakuza Kiwami? A shame that he fell off the grid for a while after the events of the first game.
Even in the Black Sheep of the franchise, JC Denton is still a badass that does not change.
Still, I'm annoyed at how much the prequels have so drastically made the past so ridiculously Sci-Fi and "Ghost in the Shell/Blade Runner" that it pretty much makes Deus Ex and Invisible War seem to take place in an alternative time-line.
While Human Revolution and Mankind Divided are good games, you can tell that Eidos did NOT want to make a Deus Ex game with what they did.
So true. I guess they felt that if they didn't "future it up," it wouldn't appeal to newcomers/younger gamers that would compare it to everything else, like the futurized direction Call of Duty was being taken.
This is bullshit. DX1 is just as futuristic as the prequels but with worse graphics, you are just looking at the past with rose colored glasses.
+KushAstronaut Then why does Gunther look like someone smashed his face into a table multiple times/incredibly cumbersome and Jensen looks like 100 times more advanced even though it’s the other way around
@@kylemason2836 I recommend downloading a mod called Helios Texture Overhaul mod for Deus Ex. There are two versions of the mod, there are the default package with better textures and the other is the Human Revolution-styled textures.
It's way better than the HDTP character models...
@@KushAstronaut This. I believe its purely due to the limitations at the time.
These conversations are highlights of the Deus Ex series. Not many games have discussions on politics, philosophy, and government.
In my humble opinion, colleges and universities should recommend these underrated classics to students. They can play them or simply RUclips them, but they should learn from them.
I concur.
Thanks for agreeing with me. Imagine what today's youth could be capable of if they discovered games like "Deus Ex."
Tony Chang Instead, Call of Duty Modern Regurgitatefare is the kind of 'game' many people love today.
kristopherm3 How fortunate that I never owned the franchise in my home because I was too cheap to afford any of the titles. You're free to call my statement BS if you want.
Anyway, how has "Deus Ex" changed your life?
Tony Chang Deus Ex is arguably my favourite game ever, it's so thought provoking and I see many areas of today's world which look like the start of 'cyberpunk'.
All the philosophies, ideologies, plots, sub-plots, and game play in this game I love soooo much I still think about this game and it's conversations a lot still till this day. I wish there more more games like this out to fill that cyber-punk hole in the video game industry
+Ninja-x1 Well said. I'd also love to see more post-cyberpunk as well.
+Elround4 I believe their making another Deus Ex and there is another game called Cyberpunk 2077 being made by the same people who made The Witcher so we'll get our Cyberpunk fix soon
@@itsdaoreo I'm curious about your thoughts on Mankind Divided.
@@cyphaborg6598 I'm downloading it now. It's on sale with every other Deus Ex game on Steam. I'll see how this one is
@@itsdaoreo well...
A small concern I have with JC's plan for elevation is that, in doing this, individual identities are somewhat lost. We are defined through our flaws and strengths, our struggles, and through them we can grow. Though, there are still plenty of trials and difficulties to grow from even without some disadvantages. On top of that, if the society were structured like JC's proposal, that level of growth might be rendered obsolete. Most humans no longer have to build up the mental resistance to seeing gore, as we don't have to slaughter our own meat. We don't have to cope with the intense fear and anger in combat with a predator, and I think it's benefited us by giving us time to reflect on other matters like philosophy. There's a richness of experience that we can't have if everyone's minds are exactly the same, but willful ignorance, dogmatism, and stubbornness are the prime causes of things like war and bigotry, and are also why it's so hard to honestly discuss the different ideas we have of the world. The elimination of these traits doesn't sound so bad, so long as a human's flawed perspective isn't used as a basis for what constitutes these things.
And in the end, considering how it is modeled to work with human desires, I imagine Helios would give enough room for neurological variation to give us a sense of individuality, but with the elimination of more serious flaws. Not just the traits listed earlier that cause so many problems, but things like schizophrenia, severe autism, PTSD, depression, and Alzheimer's disease. Plus, many people actively want to change their personalities but struggle to do so. If we could have some measure of control over how our own minds are melded, asking the Helios AI to repress our anger or irrational fear, then individuality is maintained while people can still strive to improve themselves.
Say what you want about the gameplay of Invisible War, the philosophy of Helios and post-merger JC Denton is amazing, and it grabbed me the instant I played the original. It's the best proposal for a utopia I have ever heard. I genuinely think it would work, and if I had the opportunity to implement it, I would do so gladly. I'd even be happy to be Helios' host, regardless of what it does to my identity; this level of freedom from the flaws of human nature is something I can only dream of.
TheGreatYukon This idea basically formed my current philosophical and political attitudes and beliefs.
"Helios communicatea, not assimilates"
I would need that distinction carefully and clearly spelled out before i tried this method.
JC forgot what the french woman told him about the EU.
It only communicates not assimilates, after playing this game an following dc ending i trully think it would be the only way to unify all humanity, understanding one another
What it means, at least I think, is that it will know your thoughts, your psychology, etc. Yet, you will not be changed mentally from this process.
Can’t imagine the amount of books on political philosophy Warren Spector has had to read in order to write these complex dialogues!
The dialogue here is great. You realize Denton is like the other tyrants: "Upon consideration, you'll see that this arrangement is for the best." Essentially saying the exact same thing any other dictator would say, that if you just agree with them then everything will be fine. There's no way to completely calculate, perfect, and refine the needs of every individual to make a magically perfect society. Helios thought it would bring order, but the universe doesn't work on total order. And notice he doesn't answer the question of whether or not he would be a god in this new society.
Ezra Silvershekelstein At least you don't expect to be taken seriously. Thank God.
Solomon Kane Go back to /lit/, pinko
Ezra Silvershekelstein oh god you're so excruciatingly bad at this it's painful.
Solomon Kane >smug anime girl as an avatar
>Robert E. Howard character username
>"The Pity Repose" (cdn-www.cracked.com/articleimages/ob//internet_graphic1.jpg)
Boy, you've sure convinced me that you're not mad right now.
Solomon Kane excellent retort, m'lady **tips fedora**
JC ending reminds me of this anime episode which I cant remember by name; A stranger enters a town that seems very quiet and any people he faces gets out of his sight. Later he is told that the inhabitants gained the ability to communicate and understand everyone through telepathy. This however meant that every bad thought or characteristic of any individual would be noticed and soon the village fell into chaos until everyone went hiding in their own houses. Thus robots did all the daily tasks.
Kino Journey
A town with no name
His merge with Helios took away all need for his augmentations, including his vision ones.
Dear lord...I was way too young to understand this game in any real depth however I always got Helios ending.
cringe
When your pharmacist misreads the prescription and gives you 20 megagram red-pill instead of a 20 milligram one...
I love Jc Denton.
Alviscerator The Ultimate jc is daddy
Alex: "What if I don't want someone peeking into my mind?"
While I appreciate that JC brought up de Tocqueville, whom which I am now adding to my reading list, his response of "Trust me, lol, this is for the best" is pretty weak. Narratively speaking, I think it would have been best for him to mirror Morpheus: "Human beings feel pleasure when they are watched. I have recorded their smiles as I tell them who they are.", it would've been much more impactful. I don't necessarily agree with it, but goddamn, would it have been powerful character development.
It’s true, but it’s deliberate. Every side has an obvious weakness in their argument. Remember when Alex is talking to Nicolette DuClare:
Alex: “You want to maintain disparity?”
Nicolette: “Not disparity; difference.”
I always took that as a dismissal of his question.
@@Rashaed It's also not *necessarily* a weakness, as much as a spot JC wanted to pivot away from because he believed it was a rabbit hole of unproductive conversation. He is trying to get Alex to do what he wants, which is a kind of manipulation, but arguably everyone does that. I couldn't, I want to argue every point and discuss every part of the morality and philosophy of things. Frankly I'd enjoy a long philosophical debate that goes into that matter but, most people wouldn't, and JC knows he needs to move quickly.
He's also a bit dismissive because Alex isn't *really* providing an argument. He's saying "that makes me uncomfortable". We accept a lot of uncomfortable ideas in government, begrudgingly, knowingly, or ignorantly. This would be another one. What he's not saying but implying is effectively this:
The reasons we're uncomfortable with someone looking into our mind, and more broadly why we desire and need privacy, is because constant judgement is highly uncomfortable. We desire judgement to a point, but we need to be able to keep our secrets from one another in case someone will interpret it ignorantly, use it to hurt us, judge us unfairly, and so on. Our need for privacy evolved as a consequence of human social structure. Helios isn't that, he's a fundamentally different kind of entity. His judgement would be as informed and unbiased as the entire body of human knowledge can make it. His intentions are (hopefully), fair and benevolent. Its purpose isn't to hold opinions about that person, but rather to inform what to do next in reaction to the person's thoughts and desires, as well as those of everyone else. It's trying to figure out what humanity wants, genuinely interested in making people safe, prosperous, and happy. In the same way that you have to open up to a therapist or other professionals about your feelings to get treatment, you have to open up about your *true* desires for Helios to help people. If everyone limits their desires through the lens of conventionality and judgement, the result is heavily skewed towards mainstream thought.
This makes a lot of assumptions about the AI being benevolent but, if it IS? Then, JC is right. General ideas like privacy and discomfort in the face of surveillance, aren't absolute. I actually think Helios could achieve roughly the same result without privacy invasion but, I don't know what issues that solution would have.
@@YukonHexsunI really liked your reply here. Writing this comment so I can hopefully find it again :)
@@YukonHexsun "He's also a bit dismissive because Alex isn't really providing an argument. He's saying "that makes me uncomfortable". "
Which begs the question on Helios's influence on JC, because Alex referred it "anti-depressants for the masses". I know of another, "opiate for the masses". Alex is right to question if it sees itself as god, which is also blown past.
If I was in Jc and DX invisible wars protagonist shoes i would choose the New god. There is more than enough proof that the flaw is in human Nature itself, we are reaching a point that we need to evolve to something more, and honestly the mere presence of someone to hear you, your struggles, pain and frustrations, and that same omnipotent entity being capable of guiding you to become a better self is something that we already express in our societies, we struggle for direction and a sense of belonging in a huge world, anxiety depression and isolation are the main drives of many errant behaviours so why not give it a chance? If the world is going to end anyway why not give it its best chance to suceed
Invisible War may not have been as good as the first game, but I did have some interesting ideas.
Still a better option for a candidate then the ones we have now. lol
Denton-Helios 2020: Augment fucking everything.
@@KnoxCarbon Wow, genuine LOL on that one. :D
A benevolent being free of human ambitions and motivations that is solely interested in establishing a post-scarcity world democracy where every voice is heard and nobody is born in poverty or oppression? Hell yeah
@Yo Momma At least DX and IW had some endings unlike HR and MD
This seems similar to the system of government that the Geth Collective has in Mass Effect 2 and 3; every single Geth program in the network actively participates in the process of making decisions, and they build a consensus based on the views and inputs of every Geth program. This process of decision-making would be impossibly slow for organic beings, but the Geth collective can think and communicate at such speeds that they can come to a decision within minutes.
This is some pretty deep shit. Making my head spin.
It's funny to read the concerns people have about Helios and JC Denton because much of those concerns have already occurred. Like privacy. These days its getting easier to track the actions of an individual back to him/her. Not only that, everyone already "spies" on each other. In fact, they already embrace putting their own information online, and it would be hyprocritical of us to argue for privacy in the first place. People are also willingly forming a larger, creative, collective, without the need or even the needs of assimilation. All of these actions are done by the people, and in DX:IW, it's no different, you just have an AI to supplement these efforts instead. As Morpheus said in the first Deus Ex, "I was made to assist you". Helios is no different, in thr sense that it is acting as an assistant for JC Denton.
Right? The very reason for this course is the need the human nature expresses... the need to create god in our own image
The problem is that this information is being used in service of those truly in power, which is a bunch of wealthy plutocrats. Unless you live in China, then it's an oppressive state with facial recognition. This is the key reason why privacy is important; being 100% private is not important on its own, but in the context where anyone is trying to screw you over, it's vital. You need privacy to be able to fight the systems that oppress you, because without the potential for improving or overthrowing them, progress is impossible. A benevolent AI "god", makes that idea a lot more complicated. An AI could be like Helios in this game, or it could be a perfected version of the Chinese facial recognition and social standing programs.
People will sacrifice privacy out of a desire to feel connected to others, as we are social animals. They will open themselves up to others, though many find this upsetting because they know there are bad people out there who will take advantage of that information. It's always about the threat of being screwed with, that's what comes to mind. I don't think most people see privacy as an end, in and of itself.
The people who are too easily swayed by the Helios ending choice likely have not grown up or suffered under communism. There will always be those in power that will manipulate the system. The idea of a 100% fair and balanced AI that is incorruptible for is a fantasy, in the end of the day someone has to program it, there will always be flaws.
We are already essentially freely giving up away all of our privacy today in the name of convenience, we don't even need an AI to force us. In history this type of (communist) utopia has never worked. This AI idea is really digital communism.
Transhumanism will be exploited as slavery, digitizing yourself and incorporating parts that you don't own takes away from your freedom and control (as shown in Human Revolution and Mankind Divided). We are already seeing the effects of this today.
@@someguy43210 You really need to examine this more, or at least listen to what JC is saying here - theres no corruptible human element present, in this dialogue it talks about how the middle man with his own motivations is entirely gone from the equation, as are the motivations of the people at the top. The first game goes to great length to make it abundantly clear that Helios whole motivation is helping humanity and also controlling it, with either Bob Page or JC at the helm to give it a look at what humans actually want. Theres no corruption, no programmer, it's just the living, breathing manifestation of conscience.
People buy into it for the fact that Helios simply isn't wrong in any way, shape or form - even the matter of "taking control away from humanity" is solved because JC is still a human being at the same time as being a machine, and just like what governments are technically supposed to be routes the voice of what equates to every human being through his mind. Saying anything against that would invalidate any argument because the whole idea is that it's supposed to be flawless. The only thing I can think of that would, in a real-life scenario be able to go wrong is people going off the grid, which is just stupid but understandable given that if you don't, like us from behind the screen, know that Helios' sole motivation is aiding humanity. Theres also the logistical side of things of having a computer with enough processing power to literally process every single thought, period. And maybe internet speeds, but I'd guess in 2071 they'd be at terrabyte speed even in africa.
Privacy is an issue of greedy individuals and corporations, not of a benevolent overseer. Helios+JC represents a mediator that would oversee and prevent those piracy issues from getting out of hand like they are in reality. We are no being overseen by benevolent AI, but rather by greedy people being greedy and selling our personal data for about $3 per quarter. We are living in the Illuminati timeline or perhaps one where the Majestic 12 won.
All of politics can be seen by the two kinds of people who listen to this plan. Those that think it would be heaven, and those that think it would be horrifying
With the last ones telling the truth. We already had this thing, it is called communism and it never worked. Had a few million people living in hell or being killed in the process.
I very much like the scientific approach of building a model first .. and watch if it will fsck itself up.
It could be both honestly. If it is 100% the case that Helios won't abuse his power, then his world would indeed be heaven.
This cutscene was probably more deep and stimulating than all other video game cutscenes I've ever seen put together.
It feels weird seeing him without glasses
4:29 Jock : Am I a joke to you?
I miss when games had such good plots.
the best plan in this game
An actually conceivable way to achieve a true utopia. Where all human needs are met, and every individual are neither abandoned, nor put in power to oppress others. All are equal, all voices are heard, and none are oppressed. Resource destribution are completely automated, so all individual needs are met completely. Instantaneous, and direct democracy. No poverty. No homelessness. No crime. No war. No racial, gender, racial, or national tension, since none of that would ever be needed anymore. Its f**king wonderful.
psycho-pass would like to have a word with you
John P What about?
It's scary. When would humans be ready for this?
***** Nearly the total of our species can agree on some things. We want to be appreciated. We want our voices/opinions to be heard. We want our basic needs to be met, food, water, a home. And we want other needs to be met, like job safety, education, healthcare, child care, safety, a just law system, all provided in some form or another, without corruption getting in the way. You now agree 100% with 99.9% of humanity.
This is literally a solution that would try to find the best possible answer to meet literally everyone's needs, without harming the needs of any other individual. It is literally its sole function. It can calculate over a hundred ways to give you a balanced diet tomorrow, with only things you like to be delivered to your door, in a nano second. It can figure out how to plan road building, without harming the health of nearby residents, wildlife, or travel time. It can switch all of earth's energy to green energy in less than a decade. An actually manageable, and smoothly run bureaucracy. No more waiting in line, no more bad service, no more sub par safety checks, no more faulty equipment. All production and transport could be 100% automatized. Meaning all resources could be gathered and distributed so none would ever even know what the word "poor" would mean other than in theory. No one will ever be homeless again. No one will ever starve again. No one, will ever be unheard or abandoned ever again. Its a utopia. Could be brighter, but it has the potential to be a pretty freaking bright one.
(I'm sorry for the wall of text, I really just love... well humanity. So any seemingly functional utopia gets me in all sorts of fan-boying)
But don't you think that having different opinions will always lead to disagreement and complaints and eventually people would start fighting with each other? since it's the nature of humanity?
i just cannot see when this kind of society would make it alive.
I love the background music in this level.
Whenever someone says that DE:IW is a bad game i show them this.
The gameplay still blows.
If the story was the same but everything else like the original one...oh man this game would have been perfect!
I gave up and wanted to see the story. But I'm just so bored with the game itself, it's physically painful to keep trying. I've played 50 hours of the extreme boredom of Witcher 1 and I don't want to do it again. Plus, it's messing consistently with my display.
@@Hirnlego999 The gameplay in DX1 is much shittier than in IW though.. IW is like identical only improved.
@@KushAstronaut No idea which IW version you have gotten your hands on because IW is a lot simplified even when it comes to its combat.
I believe losing his shades is suppose to be symbolic that he is finally able to see clearly about what the future should bring to better mankind. In the first Deus Ex, he was mostly blinded and doing other people's bidding before finding his own voice after merging w/ Helios.
New question: Do the events of Human Revolution change your outlook on events in Deus Ex and Deus Ex: Invisible War?
No, and I played HR first.
WittgensteinSergeant Well what factions would you pick in the other 2 games?
You mean the endings?
Deus Ex: JC Denton merging with Helios, because it's a canon ending and I like it, the perfect mix of man and machine: JC-Helios Denton.
Invisible War: JC Denton Ending, also because it's canon and I believe in a next-gen civilization, as said by him, in RL I ain't afraid to try new stuff either.
Not at all. JC's merging with Helios and subsequent Singularity after the events of IW are exactly in line with my beliefs in transhumanism; which HR expounded upon in length. By itself, augmentation is not the problem for human and societal ills. The problem lies in administration and distribution, something that Helios is capable of solving.
It's also something of a misnomer, this plan. Helios and JC are not trying to assimilate, individuality is not to be extinguished, that's why they seek to understand all minds, so it can act on all individual needs, tastes, and ambitions.
Maybe it's just my nature as a God fearing man, but the idea of a benevolent all knowing super intelligence is the one the most appeals to me.
Anthony Clay As a fellow Transhumanist I agree. ^^ I'd like to add that the David Sarif ending slightly foreshadows/leans into the JC/Helios ending of both Dues Ex and IW. I'm in the process of playing IW and then later replaying both DE and HR to eventually but together an analysis on that perspective. : )
As for the last point, I fall in line with the stereotype most Transhumanist being non-theistic. However, I none-the-less hold fascination in the non-theistic (note that I am using that specific word choice) aspects of Buddhist thought. Likewise, my limited research on Taoism gives said supper intelligence and connecting one's mind to it some intrigue if not appeal. Do you also see an appeal to hypothetical brain-to-brain connections where people retain their individuality? Examples of this can be found in the following works of science fiction: the Conjoiners in Alastair Reynolds novel "Galactic North" and the Synergists and Neo-Synergists in the transhumanist scifi horror game "Eclipse Phase?"
I always picked this ending because I can't bring myself to kill JC and Paul.
Make that two of us. I always felt the Denton boys had the noblest, or at least the most well-meaning, intentions, so it made sense for me to side with them throughout the game and ultimately choose their ending.
Invisible War needs a do over, there are too many gems in it to discount it completely.
My feeling is that they (whoever the devs would be) would change it too much and the things that make it so special (in a good way) would be nearly - if not - completely lost. Don't get me wrong, this hypothetical game would probably play really well and have a couple of new phrases like "I didn't ask for this" but they would at best be empty or at worst be twisted in a way that feed into the technophobia of recent years (I'm not saying this would be a bad thing to do in general - this is how a lot of great SF came about - only that IF this is what they did to IW instead of making a new franchise THEN that would not be to my liking). (And one of the pilots would be DLC 🤗). If instead they ended up doing a great remake then that would be awesome and I would stand corrected 😃 And everything would be totally awesome! 🤗
Ive been thinking about making a mod that remakes IW in the DX1 engine
There is no possible way to ever achieve a true utopia.
The best we can do is balance freedom and control to a point where we as a civilization are at our highest productivity and quality of life.
"our highest productivity and quality of life" classic boomer moment
2:20 this line sounds like what Human Revolution tried to say but failed to
"Is human nature perfect? No. Therefore, improvements are to be welcomed."
And not annihilated in Templar programs.
We regard the present human norm as a transitional state. We will not give up our humanity, but we will perfect it in a thousand diverse ways.
perverse, not diverse.
Its not fair that people hate this Game so much.. Its still one of my favourites oldscool Games, i loved the amazing atmosphere and soundtrack, the Omar and the freedom to do what you want. I also loved to modify my body with legal and illegal Biomods. Proud that i have the first pc edition with a booklet.. Games like this will never come back, but who i am...
The most major weakness of this game is the strength of its predecessor. Its makers have once said, that they listened to much to those, who didn't like the original game, when they made their decisions on what to change. But I guess, the game was then judged by those DID like the original game. Of course they noticed mostly, what was lacking when compared to Deus Ex 1. I'm pretty sure, the game would have been remembered quite favorably, if it wasn't a sequel to Deus Ex.
My only gripe is that this game is ugly
I played it and thought it was still Deus Ex, I mean I can’t begin to explain how hard it is to make a game sequel that’s better than the original in a lot of cases.
This seen alone is reason enough to play invisible war
Well of course JC doesn't sound the same. He spent the last two decades merged with an ultra-advanced AI construct. Add to that the fact that he'd also been contemplating how best to essentially save humanity at the same time, and you can understand why he changed so profoundly.
As for just his VOICE sounding differently, I guess Eidos just felt it was more fitting he had this strange, mechanical voice since he's cybernetic. DX1 beats the crap outta this, but it could've been more polished.
seeing jc and the sanctuary level was like seeing an old friend
Amazing writing, great voice acting, awesome story.
JC Denton gonna build greatest democracy the world has ever known
The writing in this scene is so good. In 4 minutes it covers theology, philosophy, politics and the human nature and communicates its ideas well enough to be understood.
There's even another layer of irony to it, this 4 minute speech is a generality in light of just how deep these topics can go.
Theology? It makes 1 or 2 generally anti-theistic comments and then discusses political organization.
Me: Uh huh... Yep.
1:06
Denton: ... siezed by the templars-
Me: SHIT GOT REAL.
Yo comment so old, the timestamp don work
@@CS-si4nn damn
Denton in DE: I'm not big into books.
Denton in IW: _Casually quotes de Tocqueville to justify establishing post-humanism on a global scale_
It was because he was going on missions all the time. Now that he has Helios' levels of processing power, he has more than enough time for book-reading
Yes. Yeeeees. Y-y-y-eeee-e-s.
I remember laughing my ass off when I found out Ava was an AI, because that same voice actress gave us SHODAN's memorable performances.
This is really like the plot of ghost in the shell
Could Ava Johnson be named named after Adam Jensen? Both are AJ,
Jensen is a different spelling of Johnson.
Adam was created before Eve (Ava).
Co'incidence?
Adam Jensen is a character that was made up AFTER Ava Johnson.
JC Denton really went to the dark side. Helious pretty much destroyed his mind.
Why is it "dark"?
@@ARN012 Depends on your perspective but JC in the first game literally said to the Morpheus AI “Some people just don’t realise the dangers of indiscriminate surveillance.” JC became a very different person after merging with Icarus. Then again I played the version of Denton that blows up Area 51.
@@mikeylitchfield4651 There's a difference between indiscriminate surveillance by humans and by AI. JC-Helios understood that letting people go unchecked with the current state of technology will eventually lead to another MJ12 scenario, thus a different solution was concluded.
@@ARN012 it was pretty clear to me that he was talking about any kind of indiscriminate surveillance being dangerous as the context of the conversation in that moment of the game was morpheues and Denton debating the merits and dangers of replacing god with AI.
Say what you want about this game, when I got to this part when I was 16, I had a fricken nerd gasm. I love the philosophy and political intrigue of the series. DX HR was a masterpiece, but I wish it had a scene like this
DEAR GOD... This voice acting is sooooooooo amazing...
I never saw the other endings. I didn't care. When it came time to pick between making a choice for everyone simultaneously (for some almost certainly against their "will".) or trusting in some organization with no clear workable goal It didn't even take a second. Reaching for true equality was really the only choice between "Trust me, no really, I'll be nice to everybody and help them this time." or truly giving everyone the power help themselves. It's an Easy moral choice. Do the most good.
His intentions are benign, wanting all to be equal in all ways. I just don't like the idea of people losing privacy by having their minds connected. I lose myself in my thoughts every single day, and would never want anyone peeking into what I think about.
It goes both ways you know.
You see into everyone's mind, they see into yours.
Yo Momma I do care, i dont want peoples to know about my feticisms.
Helios communicates with everyone but keeps peoples thoughts private from other people. Atleast i think it went like this in Deus ex. Ai is not actually someone in a sense, so no privacy is lost, no one looks what information helios has, except jc denton, but he already merged with helios.
It wouldn't matter anyway because we'd all understand each other since we would all be connected to each other. There would be no judgement.
TMW you realize Alex D is voiced by none other than Vegeta himself
not everyone can be equal to their dictator in such a large society. thats the economic reality. there are costs to education...
How things are now, sure. In the context of this however, a collective effort of all humanity under an AI like Helios can achieve unimaginable things, including addressing education for all people.
- My god, JC! What happened to you??
Remember when we used to fight against the system..now you've gone completely mad.
Helios really changed you brother...really changed you!
If you succeed in your fight against the system then you either become the system or move into the woods or mountains or a one bedroom apartment (and isn't this the same as being a part of the system). JC (at the time he is making his little speech here) still hasn't succeeded so he is in fact still fighting the system at this point - but now he(lios) has a plan.
Tracer Tong was such such a god damn idiot in Deus Ex.
Destroying all our tech? Sounds brilliant dude.
That besides eliminating tech would require a KKV to annihilate the planet and thereby destroy any possibility of any organism developing a sufficient level of tech to augment themselves. In short Tracer "idea" would have been nothing more than a temporary road bump.
The idea was that by disabling all electronics across the world, it would mean that governments would scale back on a scale comprehensible to the citizens.
Problem with that is, we had big government even before electronics existed. Like... waaaay before.
HQDefault correct. The idea is actually quite noble, but there are merciless conquerors in every age and scope. Maybe cutting out electronics would remove issues such as banking cartels, debt, and proxy armies, but the hands would almost definitely be changed to more barbaric forms of conquer based on who has the most goods. Potentially some isolated societies may be able to sort their shit out, but that just makes this a deck shuffle at best.
Basically his plan was to reboot civilization hoping that a better one would emerge, as the path humanity had gone down up to that point was irredeemable.
He liked Escape from L.A. a bit too much.
All of this shit is great. This is on par with talking with Morpheus in the first game. Great writing and ideas, as far as their being extensions from the three disparate endings of DX1. Human Revolution did the right thing and set itself before the others. There isn't a bad game in this series.
As far as Invisible War, well, it's a unique protagonist with a new set of skills, travelling the globe and fighting shadows. Mankind Divided has mostly same skills, a retread of a protagonist, and virtually one city. Invisible War is a better Deus Ex game than Mankind Divided, though the mechanic / playing MD feels the most refined.
Rating: GOTY, Human Revolution, Invisible War, Mankind Divided. Again, not a bad game in the series.
I agree. And I had to write this. Because I'm so happy to see a comment like this.
@DestructoMonkey "Mankind cannot be equalized in mind and body simply by uplinking to the great interwebs that is Helios."
Yep, and that's why the plan *wasn't* just to uplink with helios. At 1:45 in the vid: "Address the flaws in human nature. Make all beings truly equal in both body and mind".
The augs required to uplink to helios also included the kinds of physical and mental augs that JC had, eliminating or at least massively reducing the stratification in society.
I can listen to JC-Helios speak all day
JC Denton's meaning really meant to end the war with benevolence and prosperity, he's asking all individual to understand one another.
JC is the one charater in Invisible War that speaks like a Deus Ex character. It's like he was written by someone who wrote the previous game, and everyone else was by a different guy.
In my sad opinion, this was the last official Deus Ex game.
Yup.
I would say only the first Deus ex was official. IW was a catastrophe and should be made scraped from the franchise for good or remade with a whole new story/altered story. HR did good with going back to the original and paying more attention to the first game, though it will never reach the first game.
You had to skim through a game just to see the REAL *Deus Ex 2*
i love how the music suddenly transitions!
"man first of all exists, encounters himself, surges up in the world - and defines himself afterwards."
The problem with JC's plan is that it simply leaves humanity in complete stagnation, and the concept of what is knowledgeable, logical, and fair change frequently, again, Helios requires aid in understanding the human condition, and there's certainly no guarantee it will succeed.
Original had great gameplay and talked about conspiracies in great detail. Invisible War talked about other factions which was interesting like the knights and the omar and hr and mankind divided had much better voice acting and a more interesting world to roam around in. They should have taken these traits and combine them to make the perfect deus ex game.
I thought his vision was Augmented
The problem with his plan is he is still embracing democracy. Even if their minds are "enhanced", can the majority be expected to always vote fairly? And if they could, then why would their vote even be needed? Helios could govern on the concept of fairness alone.
That’s a good question. I think it’s answered by how you play the game. Do you go lethal or non-lethal? Do you use stealth or engage in combat? Do you help innocent people when possible? That may give you the answer.
But Helios needs the people to vote. Or you fall back in to one of the flaws of democracy JC Denton was talking about. You would be ruling based on generalities again. Helios needs to communicate with everyone in order to make sound policy.
Somebody didn't check out Everett's mechanic. RIP Jock
Yea rip
Don't mind me, the election results made me think of this conversation and the companion ending. I remember picking it the very first time I played back in high school because I wanted to believe in what JC was talking about. And then the ending came along and listening to Helios' monologue left a terrible taste in my mouth. Went back and went with the Omar ending over all others. That was back when I was in high school. Now that I'm older, I think I'd go with Helios instead.
Oh, the pretentiousness of leftists knows no bounds. We, the American people, do humbly beg the international left's forgiveness for acting in our national self-interests.
Outside of that, I find transcendentalism to be a pipe dream at best and a Singularoty-related danger at worst.
@@reidparker1848 Shut the fuck up asswipe.
This and mgs has so many similarities i can relate
It breaks my heart this game runs so poorly on modern PCs. It was truly something special.
The inadequacies of a few may lead to war and strife in our world but the responsibility for following others or not in their inadequacies is a decision left entirely up to the individual. That option must always be left open regardless of the nature of the solution. Which is why I always preferred the Renegade ending where the strong willed and single minded create a new super race of humans, each taking ultimate rsponsibility for their actions. Each human a nation unto themselves.
Again the first sentence:
Borg and The Invasion have nothing common with JC/Helios.
Based, sign me up for this shit
@DorianMichaelsIII
J.C. and Helios are merged, one conciousness born of a combination of two. While Helios may have a greater influence due to it being a powerful A.I., it lacked crucial factors, such as humanity, in it. That was why it needed J.C., and J.C. needed it to come up with a better solution for controlling the world, as he stated; 'I needed the Helios merger in order to contemplate the problem effectively.'
What part of "communicate not assimilate" do you not get?
The flaw that I see with this is the idea that lucid, knowledgeable, emotionally sound individuals would come to the same perspective as each other. "I understand but I don't agree." Unless Helios forces everyone to share in the same perspective, which would switch it from communicating to assimilating, people will never agree on everything. Eventually those disagreements will lead to friction, defiance, and even possibly war. I want the sequel to this game to address the inherent necessity of a system that allows for conflict.
Helios isn't just a superior Skype call. It's a telepathic neural network that allows everyone to read each other's minds.
Everyone would understand why everyone Elise believes in different ideals, since we would all share a brain.