Your example of going to a low level local and doing well in the bracket only to lose to a wobbling icees player is literally what happened to me at 3 straight tourneys. I haven't gone back to a tourney in a year. It totally ruins the experience for mid to low level players.
most melee players can overcome this. thats why melee will never die. melee players have a natural born will to keep playing the game even if the experience sometimes sucks.
Requisite setup for the wobble: Get a grab Have Nana nearby Start the hits before they mash out Can be performed anywhere against all characters at any percent multiple times per game. Once it starts there's no escape and its not difficult to perform. IC grab is a low commitment move, and counters shielding which, in any other MU, is a necessary action to take to avoid taking direct damage from approaches. It's also boring to watch as a spectator and commentator, creates boring hyper-safe neutral between players where one is fishing for a 0-death grab and the other is avoiding it, and devalues all other punishment options to the point of obsoletion.
I agree with you, but this exact post 1 year ago would have been downvoted to oblivion followed by comments saying get gud. Axe says it, and all of a sudden its cool to want it banned.
@@PaxRT87 I've been playing since the first time there were many TOs banning wobbling. I don't know why we went from having it banned in many places to not at all, but the arguments are all the same just recycled a decade later. I don't think it's just because Axe or any other pro is saying it, I think it's just that after such a long time of people having to counterplay against it, there's really not much left to defend.
The Melee community is so weird. Literally any other game would ban an incredibly easy infinite the moment it was discovered. How are people arguing in favor of this?
I think a big aspect of this debate is that wobbling itself is completely non-interactive, i.e. it removes the other player from the situation entirely. Some of the things I've heard about existing counterplay to wobbling are fine arguments, but they seem to be considered in a vacuum which isn't entirely fair. While the setup for a wobble depends on a number of conditions being met, most of the points I've heard for "counterplay" to wobbling are a description of "not getting wobbled" as opposed to "what you can do during a wobble". There's plenty of ways to avoid a Wobble, but in terms of an actual defensive option once you've been grabbed, there are none other than an execution error by the player. That being said I totally agree with you about Ice Climbers as a character - I think they're an insanely fun character to play with a ton of potential and I would love to see them explored with more diversity. Thanks for sharing your thoughts Axe!
I agree that it's non-interactive, and that's why people play melee instead of other fighting games half the time. In most games, knockback is completely static, so combos are all static. Melee is unique in its DI system so you're still playing while getting combo'd. The reason wobbling hurts is because you're getting combo'd, with no flash, relatively no skill, and it takes longer than most combos as well. I'd imagine there are combos in other games, like dbfz, that take little skill, do 1/4 of your total game life, and take a while to complete like wobbling. It's just expected to not be playing for that duration, unlike in melee, where players have the privilege of still interacting and playing while getting combo'd.
wait people want puff to be banned?? wtf?! yes rest is strong but its high-risk high reward! miss a rest and you lose a stock. miss a wobble and you maybe get some percent. you can't compare these two
@@frankupham1214 they shouldn't ban aimbots, people should just get better at shooting than an aimbot. the "git good" argument is so fucking redundant.
@@prawngravy18 Take your false equivalency out of here. Aimbots damage the integrity of the game because now you don't know who is playing honestly. Puff is a defensive but beatable style of play that focuses on punishes and a slow neutral game.
As someone who doesn't have a local scene, and mainly watches the majors it feels easy to make the IC's aren't winning argument because you don't see them largely represented in the top levels and I don't have the frustration of losing to them as a player trying to push to higher levels of achievement and being beat by that guy who just knows who to wobble and shuts down my play (I hadn't thought of this angle so thank you Ae for making me think about it). Chu has had his ups and downs recently, Army and Bananas had decent run a few times but even so seem to see less of them now too. I find watching wobbling is interesting, there's a similar to tension to Puff's rest, although like noted there is less risk from an attempted grab vs an attempted rest. So would I be sorry to see it go, a little, in the long run would I mind, no. Wobbles is still my all time favourite IC player and I think in part because he knew he could wobble but chose the harder paths to do crazy IC combos that blew my mind. Should Puff be banned, no way. It seems like players can't solve HBox, and thats got to be frustrating but it doesn't mean it's not doable. Don't blame a character for a player you can't beat in the mental game. Feels like the melee community has built HBox to be the mental champ he is by being pretty toxic to him and he stuck through it. He stays fighting back and stays in his lane and stays resolute in it against all the F*@K Hbox chants and whatever. He's earned his place and theres got to be someone at the top, it seems to keep everyone else pushing to find a way past. M2K did that, Mango did that, Armada did that now it's HBox.
"hurr durr mental game" says the kid who thinks Hbox floating around and ledge stalling for 8 minutes after 1 lucky stock is what "The highest levels of play" should be. What a joke. Ban Jiggs.
@@JasonGodwin69 I don't think what you described equates to high level play, at least not from a technical point of view, but it's certainly a viable option to use to help a player win. Also I don't think it's something we see HBox doing regularly. Yes he's used this in the past, I believe it was WTF2 where it stood out the most as his tactic, and Armada used fox's down tilt to over come the ledge stall and force HBox to play more honestly you might say. Since then HBox play has developed a lot, of course he'll still use this tactic on occasion but it's not as often and it's not as needed as it was for his play to come out on top. As for calling me out as a kid, I'm curious as to why you'd think that I am? Other than I suppose I didn't proof read as well as I could have and I admit there are some sloppy typos in my first comment.
@@JasonGodwin69 If the stock is lucky, then how does he get it every time in tournament? You don't see him losing 50% of the time because he's consistent. And when he's consistent, he's not just lucky. He has skill at the game. No other Puffs perform at his level. Puff does not dominate the meta or anything
ICs still have an INSANE grab game without wobbling. And if the players had an incentive to actually LEARN those combos and different setups, they'd probably perform just as well. They're straight up ignoring huge portions of the character. Attempting a wobble and getting nothing should NEVER EVER happen, because they have other silly strong setups for almost every situation when they get a grab.
Not necessarily just as well, since by nature those combos aren't going to be as consistent as the 100% consistent wobble But there's definitely been some IC players who have nutty grab games. Fly Amanita and Wobbles come to mind, in that regard.
Top quality content. I'm glad you're able to word your views this well, lets hope everyone else will see it from this perspective too for just a second to open the debate in a healthier way.
Puff may be the best character, probably not, but it doesn't justify being banned. ICs may not be the best character, but wobbling is just degenerate. Smash is about neutral, punish game, movement, advantage/disadvantage, recovery, and outwitting your opponent. Wobbling throws a lot of this out the window. Like you said, wobbling isn't playing Melee normally. It's just a degenerate strategy
@@michaelvandevusse3728 Yeah but the outplay nets a guaranteed 250% like do you not see how one opening is not equivalent to another? Wes gets a shine on Yoshi's right? Thats a free triple shine firebird off the top oh wait they DI'd away so i guess i'll settle for 30% maybe.
@@michaelvandevusse3728 go watch the match again and see how many times wes wins neutral vs. how many times army wins neutral, I guarantee wes is winning more neutral interactions. that's the entire point behind the argument, your neutral does not have to be as good because you take games with four neutral wins.
@Stray Dog that’s a good point on pointing out the ridiculousness on the topic of neutral wins and the possibility of winning neutral 4 times and winning a game. However, I’m not sure why exactly that is grounds for banning, ya know? People keep saying it’s ridiculous, but a lot of melee is ridiculous. I’m just waiting for folks to step back and talk about why their whys are relevant. Floaty matchups in general require more neutral wins since they are less easy to combo than fast fallers. Why is this different than playing against floaty mains with great defense and monstrous combo/punish game like aMSa?
I agree with IC's having more potential. It's the same way you brought Pikachu up on the tier list along with Amsa with Yoshi. I think if people put more time to develop them outside of wobbling, they can push the character further. Also it doesn't help their punish game, if it's always relied upon getting a grab so they can wobble.
This logic is flawed. IC's have other unexplored options outside wobbling, but all these options are worse than wobbling. Therefore, even if other options are discovered, they will all be worse than wobbling, so IC's can't have their punish game pushed further by banning wobbling.
@@nathanielcox8684 They don't mean push further in terms of power. ICs punish game will become a more dynamic situation with many options to consider for both players, increasing the depth of the character and making them more fun to play, play against and spectate. Wobbling currently takes the form of the single most effective punish ICs have and it is simple to perform, making all other punishes completely untested because it's easier to just wobble and take the whole stock.
Two words, ban wobbling. And then my honest opinion on the puff ban discussion is a ban would be unnecessary. I can see the need for a ban of MK in brawl, and Bayo in 4, but puff isn’t in a league high enough above other characters that a flat out ban would be necessary. Yes puff does have utility that other characters don’t, like rest and her incredible air mobility, but I don’t thinks puffs utility is crazy enough to be banned. The only reason people are talking about a puff ban is because of HBox. There isn’t anyone else out there that is playing puff like he is. And he’s just playing his character to the strongest of his ability and he’s doing really well at it. Yeah, I’m tired of seeing HBox win everything, but when Armada was winning everything before HBox got crazy good with puff no one was talking about a fox ban. Just my personal opinion. Interested to hear what everyone else has to say.
Yea, a Puff ban would be hypocrisy right now. It does seem like she has the most potential to get a ban compared to other top tiers, or atleast a ledge grab limit should all the other top puffs or just Hbox start abusing the crap out ledge camping. It hasn't been fully explored. I've heard mixed opinions on this, M2k suggested that Hbox could win at will by ledge camping as soon as he gets the lead, but it would be clearly degenerate and he'd get boo'd so he tries not to. But M2k also said Puff ledgecamping can be countered (timed Fox downtilt). So as it stands a Puff ban or LGL would be purely based on theory and not based off degenerating gameplay like ICs have been doing.
The fact that no one was talking about a fox ban shows that people accept it him as a core component of 'melee.' The spacies embody why most people play melee to begin with (fast movement, DIY combos, style, feels good to play them). So when someone came along and dominated using the tools that most people use, there wasn't a question of legitimacy. But HBox's puff is cheese incarnate. Puff's moveset allows for an entirely different game to be played and as it unfortunately turns out, it's optimal for winning, but at the cost of what makes melee great. Now the top player isn't dominating with superior combo & punish game but with non-committal arials and barely any actual combat. It's not 'melee' anymore, it's all neutral game (pretty much Smash 4), and people don't spend hours practicing melee to have tournaments of "who can wear out the opponent in neutral the most."
Ok, so now as another idea, why don’t we just strike at the root of the problem. If we’re being honest, puff isn’t the problem. When we hear all of the top players like Plup, Mango, and all the other players that have said “I hate fighting puff” through some way or another, do we really think they’re talking about puff players like Prince Abu, or as a random fake example JohnnyCheeseFingers69 whose been playing puff since 2010? Of course not. When the top players make a tweet or say on stream that “I hate fighting puff” you know they’re just saying “I hate fighting HBox” indirectly. So, why is no one honestly talking about a “HBox ban”. XD Again, in my personal opinion, I feel that just because the guy at number 1 right now is abusing the character and playing a super “cheesy” play style to the extreme (which I 1000% agree is true and I’m getting tired of it as well), that doesn’t mean the fraction of the community that isn’t playing puff like a huge doofus should be punished as well. I don’t think it’s fair to Abu, or JohnnyCheeseFingers69 whose just wanting to play his favorite character Jigglypuff while he drowns in pools at The Big House 9. I again don’t think a flat out puff ban is necessary because I don’t feel that the character is carrying players into a skill level that they don’t deserve (except for one person), like I feel characters like MK and Bayo did in their games.
Viewers hate it Players hate fighting it Those who win with it are seen as cheesing or lucky rather than having earned it Know what viewers/players don't hate? Hand offs, or ICs jank in general. Showed Melee to a friend (after he bought Ultimate) and when he saw wobbling he was absolutely baffled/disgusted. "ICs aren't winning so we should ruin the fun/interesting aspects of the game for the vast majority of the community, and it prevents anyone new from wanting to give the game a try" Wobbling lovers hate Melee, plain and simple.
@Source90000same reason for performance enhancing drugs in sports - because some people like winning, no matter how they do it, sense of fair play & honour just isn't part of their ethics.
@Source90000 So by your logic, the freeze glitch should be legal too? As well as every stage? Standards are decided by the players & community, not the game itself. Not sure what else to tell you.
@@anthonybraun1021 I think some are saying that but even still, as Axe says here I just don't think that's actually true. I think like with any game some people might do better with a different character sure but mostly it comes down to that player. If Leffen started as a puff main I don't think he'd be any better than he is right now in the long run. I think this is true of pretty much everyone playing one of the top 8 or so characters.
@@TB317 But the thing is if you look at a lot of the matches that Leffen loses is because he's playing nowhere near his average level, playing fox without making mistakes in tournament over a long period of time is simply impossible. Hbox wins like 90% of last stock situations simply because his opponent makes misinputs. Playing puff allow the player to play at his near best 100% of the time with very little warm up.
wobbles himself popularized the technique because he thought it was funny and wanted it to get banned. the way i see it is even if the worst character has some bullshit easy infinite, it should be banned, regardless of the results that the character gets. It an unfair technique no matter by whom its used. although it should still def be legal in doubles thats always hype
Tbh I've been saying it. LOOK AT THE PERSON WHO CREATED WOBBLING. HE DOESNT EVEN LIKE WOBBLING AND HES MADE AN ENTIRE PLAUSTYLE BASED OFF OF NOT WOBBLING
It's utterly astounding that people haven't pushed for this sooner. Wobbling has the potential to ruin the tournament experience for the vast majority of players, who don't necessarily have the time/inclination to grind out every answer to every grab setup against ICs. I know for me personally, the prospect of coming up against an ICs player and getting wobbled over and over was a significant gatekeeper against attending more events, or even bothering to practice more. Why bother grinding tech for hours when someone can just slither in and grab/tap A at a certain rhythm and claim the W?
I think it's the biggest problem at low level locals where new players come in, and potentially get turned off from competitive scenes completely because they get wobbled.
I also think wobbling should be banned but this is a shitty argument. This same thought process could be applied to anything that makes new players lose.
Hey Axe, ultimate player checking in here. I have a very big interest in melee but I won't be playing it competitively at all because of wobbling. My little brother plays melee so I will play with him but tournament wise I'll be sticking to ultimate. I mean why would I ever want to play a game where I have to deal with that crap? And let's be honest, if this game we're new, no matter who the developers were, wobbling would be patched out asap. No sane developer creates a character with an infinite on purpose.
@@profoundproductionss there is like three good ones but there is a million bad ones. I'm not worried about the good ones as I won't be high enough level to compete with them for years. I'm more worried about losing to random bad players because I got grabbed once or twice. No thanks.
Here is the problem Axe, as it sits virtually every single character in the top 8 has true zero to deaths on every other character in the top 8. If you make the argument when you are in a wobble you aren’t playing melee since there is no meaningful interaction that can be done, than you must also assert that when you are in hitstun being juggled by Marth, or chaingrabbed by Shiek, or wombo’d by the Captain Falcon you are also not playing melee. In fact the answer players are given to not get put in the spin cycle that is melee combos is some variation of the following: 1.) Space better (aka don’t get hit)
2.) Di mixup (good players can simply read the DI, classic example is marth’s Chain grab) 3.) SDI to reduce time in the spin cycle (which good players can also react to) 4.) recovery mixup (which only fox and Falco can meaningfully do) The fact is, if you are stuck in a combo in melee, assuming it doesn’t get dropped, there is a good chance you are straight dead
Pretty much 100% agree with his points. Ice Climbers are still hella viable without wobbling, and Puff is a scarce character that only has one dominant player. If you're gonna ban Puff, ban every other character in the top 8 of the tierlist.
Its ironic how the player who discovered wobbling (Wobbles) doesn't even wobble and even recommends not using it. Wobbles is the only IC player that uses desync combos and god damn are those combos sick. But most of the time we get ChuDat with his douche bag smirk after every time he wins and Nintendude brings a sign to call people out for salt? Who wouldn't be salty after getting wobbled? Every time Army loses he shows his salt on stream and curses under his breath because he didn't get to cheese his opponent. They're creating a shitty stereotype for IC players when that doesn't have to be the case. If you are a wobbler, you are a lazy player. Wobbling needs to be banned.
100% agreed. There's loads of interesting IC play that doesn't get a look in due to wobbling. Another point on puff is that the only other person to get results with the character is one of the greatest players of all time even after having dropped puff for spacies.
That's person also droped puff to prove that he could win with other characters, and so people wouldn't call him out all the time for playing that character.
I mean lets compare this to what other people consider infinites in melee: -Fox Waveshines: Only a true infinite on Stadium during an appropriate transformation (which is random and not predictable since its a 1/3 chance that u get water). We do have waveshines on peach (+others) on stages like FD but those can be made much more difficult through DI (ie. counterplay) and goddamn is that shit technical as hell. Not comparable -Sheik techchase: I mean you have to be able to cover all potential options, and in every iteration of the techchase you can potentially get out. Techincally not even an infinite since you are essentially doing OKI (for those who dont play other fighting games its exploiting wakeup and tech mechanics) over and over again until you can confirm a kill. Skill barrier is lower than waveshines here, but there is much more counterplay possible. -Pikachu jab lel: Once again stage dependent like fox and very situational, the skill barrier is lower than waveshines but i think the stage exclusivity is fine enough to leave as is. You have to consider that the match has to play out in such a way that the proper transformation has to happen and you need to find an opening in a very specific area of said stage. -Meanwhile IC's get a grab ANYWHERE and continously press A (so tech, much buttons) and its a guaranteed kill with 0 counterplay, no DI no techchase, no potential stage transformation ending ur infinite. -Im 100% in favor of a wobbling ban, but i would still keep it in doubles, i think in a game where you can 2 man wobble with any character and also save a teammate from an ongoing wobble then this is enough counterplay for it to still be healthy and interesting in a match.
I think wobbling should remain legal, but all players should be permitted to bring a metronome on stage which can be set to a bpm that is out of sync with the wobble
I don't play Melee, so maybe don't listen to me, but I think a good idea might be to ban it on a case-by-case basis. Like, at a high-top level tournament, just let people do what they gotta do to win. But at a lower-mid level local tournament, maybe ban it as to not discourage newer players? I feel infinites are methodical/reflexive and therefore easy to pull off and can be rough for newbies to deal with. It's good to learn how to grow past these obstacles, but I think it can be turn some people off from the game.
If you want to ban wobbling you need to figure out where the line is between strong easy moves and actual game breaking bugs. Sheik chain grabs are also quite easy to perform but should they be banned? Fox has extremely useful tools that have almost no risk Jiggly can play very campy because of her horizontal mobility. Ness back throw. Marth combos. Why are you banning it? It can't be because it's strong, because we have other strong easy to perform moves. It can't be because it's unfun because we have other unfun easy playstyles. There needs to be a definite line between wobbling and the closest unfun easy safe move that makes them different. Make it clear why Banned - Wobbling Notbanned - Other infinites/chain grabs.
if you want to ban every strategy that you find boring or you think ruins the game for less experienced players where do you draw the line? are handoffs ok? is it all chaingrabs? is it ok in doubles? should we ban ledge stalling? I just feel like if we ban wobbling we will go down this route of banning everything and wont be able to develop strategies of our own because of a character not even dominating the meta.
Since a competitive match is 4 stocks, why not set a limit to it, like maybe 2 wobbles per game. A wobble would be grab infinite that goes above 3 hits(3 or less is a grab chain, 4 or more is a wobble). That would still give the kit to Ices, but not impossible to come back from it. If a person already did 2 wobbles and started a 3rd one would count as a 2 stock loss for the ices.
I feel like wobbling has kinda stunted Ice Climbers development. Dysincs look to have so much potential, but it seems like most other options are deemed pretty much useless by a lot of icies. I doubt they'll get better from a wobble ban, but mixing up your options is vital to your opponent not just applying the same counterplay and destroying you. So I do wonder if Icies might place better post ban, if they start utilizing their other options more often, I dunno.
I remember seeing a guy trying to argue saying that “100k people watched me play against Mango” and “80k people watched me play M2K”.. he seems to forget that Mango and M2K were in the title... ban wobbling!
I really like what KJH said about it. Just ban wobbling, only wobblers will complain or miss it, and we won't miss them. He said something like "we need to stop acting like ice climbers players are people" lmao
a lot of people with opinions are just spectators only and they don't go to locals or anything. so they only see the very top level play and think, oh it's not a big deal to have wobbling. that was a great point about it being so bad for the competitive health of the game at low-mid level play
Its not fun for the people watching nor for the person getting wobbled. Even if its not totally broken given their kit its still spreading a wave of distaste and corruption. Similar to bayo from smash4, all you can do is watch your character die from one mistake. well before the patch that is.
I wholeheartedly agree, ICs wobbles remind me so much of meta knight in brawl and bayo in sm4sh, it feels cheap, dirty, its a cancer to the community, and seeing as melee needs to keep as much traction as it can, wobbling needs to be gone. Wobbling is a surefire way to piss off multiple people, lose spectators, and lose viewers at events. It literally only harms everyone else in the community, including the events. The only person to benefit from such low and underhanded techniques like this is the ICs, who most likely didnt deserve to win in the first place. (I understand there are good ICs out there, but here im speaking specifically on wobbling.)
Huge problem too is that if they do the down throw --> dair set up into the wobble, it's practically impossible to do the SDI on the first one on reaction, if they were required to do the dthrow dair chaingrab over and over u can react.
Who wants to ban puff? Lol, are people really that sick of hungrybox?.. cause if we go by a viewer standpoint, I don't see him hurting viewership(I mean it's just one guy) and if we include the other puff players they all play somewhat differently(unlike ICs)
2:02 THIS! I’ve been saying this for years. Seriously go back and watch Wobbles’ Run at Battle of five gods. He did occasionally wobble there but he didn’t rely on it for every single stock. Even Chu when he wasn’t wobbling had an amazing neutral game. It isn’t the character it’s how they’re played.
Wobbling is a crutch. The Icies who don't use wobbling they play better as a result. Just look at Wobbles, he can do so many sick desync combos because he doesn't try to go for the wobble. The sooner it's banned, the healtier it will be for Melee as a whole. As for Puff, the problem isn't Puff, or hell even Hungrybox. The problem, is stalling. No one likes stalling. It encourages not playing the game, and is a tactic not exclusive to Puff. Don't ban Puff, ban stalling. Force those Puffs to get into the fight.
@@DrAnimePhD No, that would be absurd. Puff's aerial mobility is what makes her a viable character and if you try to implement a rule to limit that, she would just be an F-tier garbage character because her ground game is absolute garbage and that wouldn't be fair to all the puff mains as well. She shouldn't be forced to use garbage options because of some rule that limits her from playing how she is supposed to be played imo.
Love the video. I think another thing too is the MU knowledge too. Someone else in the comments said something about people knowing the Fox match up way more than the puff match up. And that could be because of a lot of different reasons. But like over the years that’s how this game goes. It happened way back in the day when basically isai was the best falcon and then others played falcon and then people figured out how to combo and play against falcon. It’s just now a lot of people are so young and this generation of people are babies.
if you admit that ice climbers are worse without wobbling, and are already not getting good tourney results at high level, then you admit that ices are not good without wobbling.
As someone who dosen't play melee, but loves watching it, Wobbling is boring af. Whenever someone picks ice climbers i just change the stream and don't come back. Youre right, when you wobble, it isnt melee :/
Wobbling is honestly what made me decide to quit competitive melee. I only played lower local tournaments but it was a blast until people started wobbling. For almost 5 or so of my last tournaments most matches would be close and exciting until you made it to quarter/semi-finals just to get wobbled. While I understand "just avoid it" you have to understand that even if you do the entire match, it's not as if IC's have only grab. Overall at this point with the "top" melee players treating IC's as garbage it's miserable to even play at low level since lower levels usually follow what's up at the top in terms of rules. This whole issue of wobbling really follows the problem with a lot of games out there who are unable to keep their "git gud" mentality under check. At some point once that mentality overtakes a game's community it becomes unenjoyable, so much so that I don't really care about melee not being at Evo, something I would have been extremely passionate about before, it just polarizes me that these top players don't seemingly care about the lower level, where the future of the game is, they only care about themselves and what is happening now with little regard for the future of melee. Also I think it's too early to ban Puff. I think the issue is the effort needed for the reward is lower than other characters, though how low is not yet known but I can understand why people would want to ban her for that and other reasons.
For Puff a simple rule that makes the rule of % advantage not count for that character is fair. If the Puff doesn't plays to kill just to rack up damage then play the stalling on the ledge game until the timer runs out then that Puff's % advantage should count & the time running out to 0 should mean a lost game for the Puff player. EXCEPT against Icies. Like Hbox smartly did against ChuDat.
Great points axe. I agree, that expecting a player to premash is definitely overcentralizing gameplay and is rediculous. And whats also rediculous is everyone wanting to ban puff. I have issued myself a challenge to get good with puff, and its really hard. I ask yall fox mains try the same
so i Have a general question for the community including you axe. Would pummeling mid handoff combo be considered as wobbling or pummels between handoffs? would it still be considered wobbling? how long before a pummel between each handoff is considered a wobble etc etc?
I get the reasons for banning wobbling really. It's poor for the lower tier tourneys, it's poor for growing the scene, and most importantly it's poor to watch. But don't sit there and pretend this won't gut Ice Climbers as a character. This is a character that has all the dumb broken things wobbling is, and is still not broken themselves. If/when they ban wobbling then IC will be gone from all major tourneys for good. It's worth it to the game as a whole, but look at the character you kill when you pull the trigger at least. Also anyone who wants to ban puff is salty. There's really nothing else to say there.
Ice climbers have really good hand off grab setups that do crazy damage and grab de-sync smash attack is a garunteed kill option. They also have one of the best wave dashes in the game and have crazy de-syncs combo's as well. The reason that you dont see *ANY* of this is because why the fuck would someone go for a sick de-sync combo that they might drop when they could instead get a garunteed infinite. Wobbles wrote an entire book long post about all of Icies crazy mechanics that go unused because of wobbling. Icies players could be so much better if they practiced these but they dont.
That's what refs are for in literally every other sport. But yeah, unless it's on stream you'd have to take peoples' word for it, and I can see how that can lead to intense altercations. BUT the honor code already exists when it comes to other things, like reporting who won, so it's not inconceivable that you'd extend it to wobbling, and for every streamed match the commentators could act as refs. It's not hard to spot a wobble, especially if the boundaries are made explicit (e.g. 5+ consecutive pummels or smt).
The freeze glitch (another iceclimbers specific 'tech') is also banned and monitored. It almost never shows up because performing the glitch is counted as a forfeit. I like to think about the argument 'wobbling would be banned within a month if it was discovered today.' Because I do believe it would. 'Free infinites' would be patched out in newer games, but melee simply isn't a new game, so we as the competitive community have to be able to discuss these topics to prolong the health of our game and it's competitiors.
From a spectator stand point, it's impossible to sit comfortably and watch a player who probably practiced for weeks or even months for a tournament get wobbled 6-7 times in a set and lose 0-2. It's not good for new players, not good for pro-players, not good for spectators. (ironically) Wobble's icies are a testament of how amazing the character can be to play and watch w/o the need of wobbling; a ban makes complete sense.
Wobbling deserves to be banned. A zero commitment, near-guaranteed infinite followed by a guaranteed stock? The fact that "wobbling above 300% is banned" had to be made a rule should tell you what Wobblers are like and why you don't want them ruining your Melee tournament for everyone else. As for Puff... Yeah, ban Puff. A moderately skilled Puff is just too good when compared to other characters. You don't need to be good at the game to win as Jiggs or use her to beat people better at the game than you. If I was a massive baby, I would go back into the Melee scene, drop Fox, use Jiggs, and win 90% of my games and tournaments for free. Look at the Professional Worlds Best Jiggs Player float around, stalling and ledge camping, timing players out because Jiggs players aren't Melee players. Ban Jiggs.
If melee came out in this day and age wobbling would have been PATCHED INSTANTLY There's no real reason to not ban wobbling, like you said an unlockable infinite is ridiculous
It's a really technical move, huh? I guess the argument for IC's would be that the setups themselves are difficult, but that's only in the rare case that they are playing against a Top 100 MIOM rated player, or just a player that lives in a region with top IC's players that knows the matchup from loads of experience.
LordofWolves word you can just waveshine every character to death with no risk. Not like it doesn’t work on most characters and you can just sdi out of it even if it does work
@@willscharnagl6909 Can mash out at 0, requires you to have nana in a near perfect place, and requires really good timing. Considering waveshining as won more games than wobbling, plus you can just infinite shine on Pokemon, it should still be banned if wobbling is.
If we are going to ban wobbling can we do so only in singles. There are plenty of clips of teams play where one person will grab and pommel and there are two made it to a lower hit move to keep the opponent in the grab. The same at 300% rule will apply but at least there will be more risk involved and go out for such a set up.
Wobbles in doubles is fun and lighthearted. Wobbles in singles is really scummy and disrespectful. Doubles wobbles always gets me hype, and on the other hand singles wobbles makes me lose respect for the player and makes me wanna go watch something else, aka getting bored.
If Wobbling isn't banned, why is the freeze glitch banned? - They both activate via grabbing - The opponent can't do anything about it - The player can continue attacking as long as they want
@@simpson6700 I suppose if you're doing the freeze glitch, you could just put the controller down and wait for the game to end. I think we're in agreement that wobbling should be banned.
Axe you should have mentioned the legend himself. Fly Amanita has almost no clips of him wobbling, always uses cool handoffs (including D-Throw Dair), and is sometimes even a bit extra. Look at the Apex 2014 pools match and you will see that.
At 5 percent it is very easy to mash out. An icys player would need to do some type of chain grab or damage on the other player though some type of chain grab first. If the player uses down throw down air you can do down and away and be able to tech out and thus prevent yourself from getting wobbled
Still Have not found a decent argument for banning wobbling. M2K says he doesn't like watching or playing against therefore it should be banned now axe cant even make up a reason. 3:554:154:455:466:308:008:19 Here are some time stamps showing how he doesnt really even have an argument against it. Its idk, i dont like it, or i think this way therefore it should be this way. This is a competitive game we shouldnt make rules that kill characters because we dont like playing against it. With this mind set we might as well ban jigs altogether, chain grabs,tech chases, and fox double laser camping. Among many other things we all dont like to play against in this game but have to overcome to get better. 8:47 now here is the only valid point that i think axe has on this subject. I agree with this, but as far as im concerned if we are going to be playing vanilla melee and not a modded version trying to buff low tiers and even out the meta i dont see a world where this a reason to ban wobbling. Its like telling a ufc fighter he is too good at the ground game and its now agaisnt the rules for him to play around that strength.
Summarization of Axe’s points on why to ban wobbling: 1. Wobbling should be banned because an unblockable infinite, it’s easy, low risk, anywhere on stage. 2. ice climber players are limited by having all of their punish options being worse than wobbling. 3. Ruins your mood when playing against. Axe’s counterpoint to “Banning will make ICs lose to more characters without wobbling”: - Axe says that the main cause of losses with wobbling is losing the neutral. This will be independent of wobbling ban.
The most hilarious part of this topic is Wobbles weighing in on the matter on Twitter, some rando trying to tell him that he's afraid he'll suck without wobbling, and pretty much every sensible person telling the guy that Wobbles is probably one of the few IC mains who would be totally fine without it (Fly, Chu, Bananas, and a few others as well).
I was also surprised when it got back and I'm very disappointed when a good player gets wobbled to death... so yeah ban pls, glad the discussion is happening
I mean wobbling yes but when did we ever hate Jiggly- oh wait never mind. Jokes aside no we shouldn't ban Jigglypuff. People hate playing against Fox sometimes but they were able to learn the matchup and now it's more even. Same goes for Puff, but we're still trying to work out the matchups currently so we're fine.
lol totally agree. It's so obviously something that should be banned and Im honestly surprised people have put up with it for so long. Literally one grab and you lose a stock, that's not a fight. And on top of that (though it doesnt matter for my argument) it's so incredibly easy to learn. I'm really only a melee beginner, I don't have much skill and I'm just bad, but I managed to learn it in like 2 hours. I can now beat players genuinely better than me with a single grab lol. Ridiculous.
I've wondered this myself, I guess I assumed handoffs were more technically challenging with a greater risk of dropping the combo, do you know if that's true?
Wobbling was banned. This has already been discussed. The community has agreed to keep wobbling. It sucks that it exists but chain grabbing also exists which is similar to Ice Climber hand offs which is just wobbling with extra steps. Even your Pikachu uses chain grabs.
@@Jardonius A situation that when it does happen is sick AF, one of the many reasons why Ice Climbers losing their most boring, overpowered exploit in favor of making the demand for the icies player themselves to be more technically/mechanically proficient at their character as well as at the game in general in order to continue to guarantee punishes (hand-off combos) on the same level as a wobble (just with much less consistency). At least Puff's upthrow-Rest has a degree of interactivity (DI, stages with low enough platforms, etc.), Wobbling should have been banned years ago when it became the primary reason Icies maintained their tier-list placing, if for nothing else than because it has NO interactivity.
@@DarkCyberElf This was a nice excerpt from your mind, and I would like to add that I also agree with it. I do believe wobbling *was* banned a long, long time ago, but it came unbanned for reasons I'm not certain of and now it's back to being barred (Or on the way? Not sure of the status anymore). Needless to say, it's going to be fun to see how the current IC's adapt. Jiggs tho... If I played enough melee to have an opinion on that then I would give one.
Respect your opinion but funny how you said “to me it’s like if I’m losing to a wobbler then I’m just not good enough” which has been the main counterargument against the ban lol
Nah, smash in general is a flow chart, if you take out part of the cycle then theres no complexity to the game, thats 1 dimensional and short sighted if you ask me.
![[SFM] Risky Recital](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/RzNkY1_Nk3o/mqdefault.jpg)
Your example of going to a low level local and doing well in the bracket only to lose to a wobbling icees player is literally what happened to me at 3 straight tourneys. I haven't gone back to a tourney in a year. It totally ruins the experience for mid to low level players.
I agree, it really hurts locals for low to mid level smashers. BTW that picture is great lol
First really tournament level competitive smasher I played against wobbled the life out of me, and it took me a while to care about practicing again.
YUP I THOUGHT OF THIS TOO
most melee players can overcome this. thats why melee will never die. melee players have a natural born will to keep playing the game even if the experience sometimes sucks.
Get better or just play ics
As a townsman watching this video, I declare that Axe is town.
He's town af
couldn’t’ve put it better 👍🏿
ChuDat is town, too. He's just dumb af like always.
Chu isn't actually stupid, his opinion is fine one to have.
Requisite setup for the wobble:
Get a grab
Have Nana nearby
Start the hits before they mash out
Can be performed anywhere against all characters at any percent multiple times per game. Once it starts there's no escape and its not difficult to perform. IC grab is a low commitment move, and counters shielding which, in any other MU, is a necessary action to take to avoid taking direct damage from approaches. It's also boring to watch as a spectator and commentator, creates boring hyper-safe neutral between players where one is fishing for a 0-death grab and the other is avoiding it, and devalues all other punishment options to the point of obsoletion.
I agree with you, but this exact post 1 year ago would have been downvoted to oblivion followed by comments saying get gud. Axe says it, and all of a sudden its cool to want it banned.
@@PaxRT87 I think people are gradually waking up to how bad it is, and not just because of any one person like Axe
@@PaxRT87 I've been playing since the first time there were many TOs banning wobbling. I don't know why we went from having it banned in many places to not at all, but the arguments are all the same just recycled a decade later.
I don't think it's just because Axe or any other pro is saying it, I think it's just that after such a long time of people having to counterplay against it, there's really not much left to defend.
@@Applesmaush I was being purposefully obtuse when I was saying it was just because axe is saying it.
Wobbling would be easier to deal with if melee had teachable grabs.
The Melee community is so weird. Literally any other game would ban an incredibly easy infinite the moment it was discovered. How are people arguing in favor of this?
Sterling it was banned very early on
@@mouselord4167 but it's not banned now lol
It's an infinite that doesn't give the user top tier status. It's a very conflicting subject
Another reason is that and infinite is as punishing because you have 4 lives. Idk for sure, just my perspective
Most people who argued against banning wobbling were smash 4/ultimate players, who don't even play melee.
I think a big aspect of this debate is that wobbling itself is completely non-interactive, i.e. it removes the other player from the situation entirely. Some of the things I've heard about existing counterplay to wobbling are fine arguments, but they seem to be considered in a vacuum which isn't entirely fair. While the setup for a wobble depends on a number of conditions being met, most of the points I've heard for "counterplay" to wobbling are a description of "not getting wobbled" as opposed to "what you can do during a wobble". There's plenty of ways to avoid a Wobble, but in terms of an actual defensive option once you've been grabbed, there are none other than an execution error by the player.
That being said I totally agree with you about Ice Climbers as a character - I think they're an insanely fun character to play with a ton of potential and I would love to see them explored with more diversity. Thanks for sharing your thoughts Axe!
I love your content even more now
I agree that it's non-interactive, and that's why people play melee instead of other fighting games half the time. In most games, knockback is completely static, so combos are all static. Melee is unique in its DI system so you're still playing while getting combo'd. The reason wobbling hurts is because you're getting combo'd, with no flash, relatively no skill, and it takes longer than most combos as well.
I'd imagine there are combos in other games, like dbfz, that take little skill, do 1/4 of your total game life, and take a while to complete like wobbling. It's just expected to not be playing for that duration, unlike in melee, where players have the privilege of still interacting and playing while getting combo'd.
I could just imagine mango saying Tell em Axe
Mang0 said he'd be fine with either of the outcomes
Tell 'em Axe!
I like that. "If you're being wobbled, you're not playing melee"
EXACTLY!!!
wait people want puff to be banned?? wtf?! yes rest is strong but its high-risk high reward! miss a rest and you lose a stock. miss a wobble and you maybe get some percent. you can't compare these two
It's not about Puff having rest. It's the Puff playstyle of getting a lead and camping.
@@OfficialNoCoast they just need to learn to chase better
@@frankupham1214 they shouldn't ban aimbots, people should just get better at shooting than an aimbot. the "git good" argument is so fucking redundant.
@@prawngravy18 my guy you are comparing one thing to a completely different thing all together
@@prawngravy18 Take your false equivalency out of here. Aimbots damage the integrity of the game because now you don't know who is playing honestly. Puff is a defensive but beatable style of play that focuses on punishes and a slow neutral game.
Don't worry, wobblings not gonna be at Evo this year!
Neither will puff. At least not the puff that kill at 40% at the middle of the stage.
@@Point5_ I don't know if this tweet aged poorly or incredibly well.
@@rtiq270 this is not Twitter bro
@@2036za Few months too late to correct me on that.
@@rtiq270 idrc
Props to you for being honest and staying above just complaining about wobbling/puff. Appreciate you and what you do Axe. Keep killin' it!
As someone who doesn't have a local scene, and mainly watches the majors it feels easy to make the IC's aren't winning argument because you don't see them largely represented in the top levels and I don't have the frustration of losing to them as a player trying to push to higher levels of achievement and being beat by that guy who just knows who to wobble and shuts down my play (I hadn't thought of this angle so thank you Ae for making me think about it). Chu has had his ups and downs recently, Army and Bananas had decent run a few times but even so seem to see less of them now too. I find watching wobbling is interesting, there's a similar to tension to Puff's rest, although like noted there is less risk from an attempted grab vs an attempted rest. So would I be sorry to see it go, a little, in the long run would I mind, no.
Wobbles is still my all time favourite IC player and I think in part because he knew he could wobble but chose the harder paths to do crazy IC combos that blew my mind.
Should Puff be banned, no way. It seems like players can't solve HBox, and thats got to be frustrating but it doesn't mean it's not doable. Don't blame a character for a player you can't beat in the mental game. Feels like the melee community has built HBox to be the mental champ he is by being pretty toxic to him and he stuck through it. He stays fighting back and stays in his lane and stays resolute in it against all the F*@K Hbox chants and whatever. He's earned his place and theres got to be someone at the top, it seems to keep everyone else pushing to find a way past. M2K did that, Mango did that, Armada did that now it's HBox.
"hurr durr mental game" says the kid who thinks Hbox floating around and ledge stalling for 8 minutes after 1 lucky stock is what "The highest levels of play" should be. What a joke. Ban Jiggs.
@@JasonGodwin69 I don't think what you described equates to high level play, at least not from a technical point of view, but it's certainly a viable option to use to help a player win. Also I don't think it's something we see HBox doing regularly. Yes he's used this in the past, I believe it was WTF2 where it stood out the most as his tactic, and Armada used fox's down tilt to over come the ledge stall and force HBox to play more honestly you might say. Since then HBox play has developed a lot, of course he'll still use this tactic on occasion but it's not as often and it's not as needed as it was for his play to come out on top.
As for calling me out as a kid, I'm curious as to why you'd think that I am? Other than I suppose I didn't proof read as well as I could have and I admit there are some sloppy typos in my first comment.
@@JasonGodwin69 If the stock is lucky, then how does he get it every time in tournament? You don't see him losing 50% of the time because he's consistent. And when he's consistent, he's not just lucky. He has skill at the game. No other Puffs perform at his level. Puff does not dominate the meta or anything
ICs still have an INSANE grab game without wobbling. And if the players had an incentive to actually LEARN those combos and different setups, they'd probably perform just as well. They're straight up ignoring huge portions of the character. Attempting a wobble and getting nothing should NEVER EVER happen, because they have other silly strong setups for almost every situation when they get a grab.
Not necessarily just as well, since by nature those combos aren't going to be as consistent as the 100% consistent wobble
But there's definitely been some IC players who have nutty grab games. Fly Amanita and Wobbles come to mind, in that regard.
Exactly Hand-offs are not only just as powerful, but they're flashier, require more skill, and don't slow the game to a crawl
Top quality content. I'm glad you're able to word your views this well, lets hope everyone else will see it from this perspective too for just a second to open the debate in a healthier way.
Puff may be the best character, probably not, but it doesn't justify being banned.
ICs may not be the best character, but wobbling is just degenerate. Smash is about neutral, punish game, movement, advantage/disadvantage, recovery, and outwitting your opponent. Wobbling throws a lot of this out the window. Like you said, wobbling isn't playing Melee normally. It's just a degenerate strategy
of course, Chudat, an Ice Climbers main, doesn't think wobbling should get banned. his logic works both ways
All you need to do is watch Westballz get wobbled (by Army, I believe) about a dozen times in one match. It shouldn't be allowed at all.
Westballz isn't out playing armies neutral then.
Michael VandeVusse jUsTdOnTgEtGrAbBeD
@@michaelvandevusse3728 Yeah but the outplay nets a guaranteed 250% like do you not see how one opening is not equivalent to another? Wes gets a shine on Yoshi's right? Thats a free triple shine firebird off the top oh wait they DI'd away so i guess i'll settle for 30% maybe.
@@michaelvandevusse3728 go watch the match again and see how many times wes wins neutral vs. how many times army wins neutral, I guarantee wes is winning more neutral interactions. that's the entire point behind the argument, your neutral does not have to be as good because you take games with four neutral wins.
@Stray Dog that’s a good point on pointing out the ridiculousness on the topic of neutral wins and the possibility of winning neutral 4 times and winning a game.
However, I’m not sure why exactly that is grounds for banning, ya know? People keep saying it’s ridiculous, but a lot of melee is ridiculous. I’m just waiting for folks to step back and talk about why their whys are relevant.
Floaty matchups in general require more neutral wins since they are less easy to combo than fast fallers. Why is this different than playing against floaty mains with great defense and monstrous combo/punish game like aMSa?
1 second in and its the greatest video on this topic.
I agree with IC's having more potential. It's the same way you brought Pikachu up on the tier list along with Amsa with Yoshi. I think if people put more time to develop them outside of wobbling, they can push the character further. Also it doesn't help their punish game, if it's always relied upon getting a grab so they can wobble.
This logic is flawed. IC's have other unexplored options outside wobbling, but all these options are worse than wobbling. Therefore, even if other options are discovered, they will all be worse than wobbling, so IC's can't have their punish game pushed further by banning wobbling.
@@nathanielcox8684 They don't mean push further in terms of power. ICs punish game will become a more dynamic situation with many options to consider for both players, increasing the depth of the character and making them more fun to play, play against and spectate. Wobbling currently takes the form of the single most effective punish ICs have and it is simple to perform, making all other punishes completely untested because it's easier to just wobble and take the whole stock.
Two words, ban wobbling.
And then my honest opinion on the puff ban discussion is a ban would be unnecessary. I can see the need for a ban of MK in brawl, and Bayo in 4, but puff isn’t in a league high enough above other characters that a flat out ban would be necessary. Yes puff does have utility that other characters don’t, like rest and her incredible air mobility, but I don’t thinks puffs utility is crazy enough to be banned. The only reason people are talking about a puff ban is because of HBox. There isn’t anyone else out there that is playing puff like he is. And he’s just playing his character to the strongest of his ability and he’s doing really well at it. Yeah, I’m tired of seeing HBox win everything, but when Armada was winning everything before HBox got crazy good with puff no one was talking about a fox ban.
Just my personal opinion. Interested to hear what everyone else has to say.
Yea, a Puff ban would be hypocrisy right now. It does seem like she has the most potential to get a ban compared to other top tiers, or atleast a ledge grab limit should all the other top puffs or just Hbox start abusing the crap out ledge camping. It hasn't been fully explored. I've heard mixed opinions on this, M2k suggested that Hbox could win at will by ledge camping as soon as he gets the lead, but it would be clearly degenerate and he'd get boo'd so he tries not to. But M2k also said Puff ledgecamping can be countered (timed Fox downtilt). So as it stands a Puff ban or LGL would be purely based on theory and not based off degenerating gameplay like ICs have been doing.
The fact that no one was talking about a fox ban shows that people accept it him as a core component of 'melee.' The spacies embody why most people play melee to begin with (fast movement, DIY combos, style, feels good to play them). So when someone came along and dominated using the tools that most people use, there wasn't a question of legitimacy.
But HBox's puff is cheese incarnate. Puff's moveset allows for an entirely different game to be played and as it unfortunately turns out, it's optimal for winning, but at the cost of what makes melee great. Now the top player isn't dominating with superior combo & punish game but with non-committal arials and barely any actual combat. It's not 'melee' anymore, it's all neutral game (pretty much Smash 4), and people don't spend hours practicing melee to have tournaments of "who can wear out the opponent in neutral the most."
Ok, so now as another idea, why don’t we just strike at the root of the problem. If we’re being honest, puff isn’t the problem. When we hear all of the top players like Plup, Mango, and all the other players that have said “I hate fighting puff” through some way or another, do we really think they’re talking about puff players like Prince Abu, or as a random fake example JohnnyCheeseFingers69 whose been playing puff since 2010? Of course not. When the top players make a tweet or say on stream that “I hate fighting puff” you know they’re just saying “I hate fighting HBox” indirectly. So, why is no one honestly talking about a “HBox ban”. XD Again, in my personal opinion, I feel that just because the guy at number 1 right now is abusing the character and playing a super “cheesy” play style to the extreme (which I 1000% agree is true and I’m getting tired of it as well), that doesn’t mean the fraction of the community that isn’t playing puff like a huge doofus should be punished as well. I don’t think it’s fair to Abu, or JohnnyCheeseFingers69 whose just wanting to play his favorite character Jigglypuff while he drowns in pools at The Big House 9. I again don’t think a flat out puff ban is necessary because I don’t feel that the character is carrying players into a skill level that they don’t deserve (except for one person), like I feel characters like MK and Bayo did in their games.
Viewers hate it
Players hate fighting it
Those who win with it are seen as cheesing or lucky rather than having earned it
Know what viewers/players don't hate? Hand offs, or ICs jank in general.
Showed Melee to a friend (after he bought Ultimate) and when he saw wobbling he was absolutely baffled/disgusted.
"ICs aren't winning so we should ruin the fun/interesting aspects of the game for the vast majority of the community, and it prevents anyone new from wanting to give the game a try"
Wobbling lovers hate Melee, plain and simple.
Literally the only people I see FOR wobbling are wobblers, it's so stupid
@Source90000same reason for performance enhancing drugs in sports - because some people like winning, no matter how they do it, sense of fair play & honour just isn't part of their ethics.
Source90000
Bad game design. That’s why Sakurai removed it in smash ult.
@Source90000 So by your logic, they should just unban the freeze glitch because even though it's a game breaking bug it's still part of the game?
@Source90000 So by your logic, the freeze glitch should be legal too? As well as every stage?
Standards are decided by the players & community, not the game itself. Not sure what else to tell you.
Imo puff shouldn't be banned at all but Jerry is a really good example of a fox who switched to puff and did better
But most people know the Fox MU way better than the Puff MU. So I'd say that's a factor as well
I think he's like the only example of that and even then, he wasn't able to perform at anywhere near the level that Hbox is at.
Yeah but people like lefffen are saying they could pick up puff and do better, they didn't say anyone could pick up puff and become hbox
@@anthonybraun1021 I think some are saying that but even still, as Axe says here I just don't think that's actually true. I think like with any game some people might do better with a different character sure but mostly it comes down to that player. If Leffen started as a puff main I don't think he'd be any better than he is right now in the long run. I think this is true of pretty much everyone playing one of the top 8 or so characters.
@@TB317 But the thing is if you look at a lot of the matches that Leffen loses is because he's playing nowhere near his average level, playing fox without making mistakes in tournament over a long period of time is simply impossible. Hbox wins like 90% of last stock situations simply because his opponent makes misinputs. Playing puff allow the player to play at his near best 100% of the time with very little warm up.
Axe spitting the truth!! The melee committee is so much better for having you in it
wait do people actually think-- OH MY GOD
IMAGINE THINKING PUFF IS AS BAD AS WOBBLING LMAO
Its just to distract from wobble ban i swear
its not as bad, its worse
wobbles himself popularized the technique because he thought it was funny and wanted it to get banned. the way i see it is even if the worst character has some bullshit easy infinite, it should be banned, regardless of the results that the character gets. It an unfair technique no matter by whom its used. although it should still def be legal in doubles thats always hype
Axe is the most genuine smasher, truly the coolest guy and gotta be my fav top player
Tbh I've been saying it. LOOK AT THE PERSON WHO CREATED WOBBLING. HE DOESNT EVEN LIKE WOBBLING AND HES MADE AN ENTIRE PLAUSTYLE BASED OFF OF NOT WOBBLING
Wobbling should be legal, but the person wobbling should have to do squats while executing it
Then no one would wobble, none of those fat fucks can squat once
The only people that play ICs and Wobble are skinny af who you watching that Wobbles and is a big chungus
Melee tournaments are about to get even smellier omg
Axe the real people’s champ.
It's utterly astounding that people haven't pushed for this sooner. Wobbling has the potential to ruin the tournament experience for the vast majority of players, who don't necessarily have the time/inclination to grind out every answer to every grab setup against ICs.
I know for me personally, the prospect of coming up against an ICs player and getting wobbled over and over was a significant gatekeeper against attending more events, or even bothering to practice more. Why bother grinding tech for hours when someone can just slither in and grab/tap A at a certain rhythm and claim the W?
I think it's the biggest problem at low level locals where new players come in, and potentially get turned off from competitive scenes completely because they get wobbled.
I also think wobbling should be banned but this is a shitty argument.
This same thought process could be applied to anything that makes new players lose.
@@WYalmicW It COULD but certain things are inherently and more universally tilting to play against, especially for new players.
I agree. Changed my mind, I want wobbling gone
Hey Axe, ultimate player checking in here. I have a very big interest in melee but I won't be playing it competitively at all because of wobbling. My little brother plays melee so I will play with him but tournament wise I'll be sticking to ultimate. I mean why would I ever want to play a game where I have to deal with that crap?
And let's be honest, if this game we're new, no matter who the developers were, wobbling would be patched out asap. No sane developer creates a character with an infinite on purpose.
>implying Sakurai is sane
Theres like three ice climber players in the world so you should be ok
@@profoundproductionss there is like three good ones but there is a million bad ones. I'm not worried about the good ones as I won't be high enough level to compete with them for years. I'm more worried about losing to random bad players because I got grabbed once or twice. No thanks.
@@OhSoSnake amazing comment
"No sane developer creates a character with an infinite."
SOMEONES never heard of Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3
Here is the problem Axe, as it sits virtually every single character in the top 8 has true zero to deaths on every other character in the top 8. If you make the argument when you are in a wobble you aren’t playing melee since there is no meaningful interaction that can be done, than you must also assert that when you are in hitstun being juggled by Marth, or chaingrabbed by Shiek, or wombo’d by the Captain Falcon you are also not playing melee. In fact the answer players are given to not get put in the spin cycle that is melee combos is some variation of the following:
1.) Space better (aka don’t get hit)
2.) Di mixup (good players can simply read the DI, classic example is marth’s Chain grab)
3.) SDI to reduce time in the spin cycle (which good players can also react to)
4.) recovery mixup (which only fox and Falco can meaningfully do)
The fact is, if you are stuck in a combo in melee, assuming it doesn’t get dropped, there is a good chance you are straight dead
Pretty much 100% agree with his points. Ice Climbers are still hella viable without wobbling, and Puff is a scarce character that only has one dominant player. If you're gonna ban Puff, ban every other character in the top 8 of the tierlist.
yeah anyone saying ban puff is completely off the rails but FUCK wobbling
Ace Senpai No one is saying Puff should be banned, it's literally just a meme
@@phongg_ho It really isn't
Its ironic how the player who discovered wobbling (Wobbles) doesn't even wobble and even recommends not using it. Wobbles is the only IC player that uses desync combos and god damn are those combos sick. But most of the time we get ChuDat with his douche bag smirk after every time he wins and Nintendude brings a sign to call people out for salt? Who wouldn't be salty after getting wobbled? Every time Army loses he shows his salt on stream and curses under his breath because he didn't get to cheese his opponent. They're creating a shitty stereotype for IC players when that doesn't have to be the case. If you are a wobbler, you are a lazy player. Wobbling needs to be banned.
100% agreed. There's loads of interesting IC play that doesn't get a look in due to wobbling. Another point on puff is that the only other person to get results with the character is one of the greatest players of all time even after having dropped puff for spacies.
That's person also droped puff to prove that he could win with other characters, and so people wouldn't call him out all the time for playing that character.
I mean lets compare this to what other people consider infinites in melee:
-Fox Waveshines: Only a true infinite on Stadium during an appropriate transformation (which is random and not predictable since its a 1/3 chance that u get water). We do have waveshines on peach (+others) on stages like FD but those can be made much more difficult through DI (ie. counterplay) and goddamn is that shit technical as hell. Not comparable
-Sheik techchase: I mean you have to be able to cover all potential options, and in every iteration of the techchase you can potentially get out. Techincally not even an infinite since you are essentially doing OKI (for those who dont play other fighting games its exploiting wakeup and tech mechanics) over and over again until you can confirm a kill. Skill barrier is lower than waveshines here, but there is much more counterplay possible.
-Pikachu jab lel: Once again stage dependent like fox and very situational, the skill barrier is lower than waveshines but i think the stage exclusivity is fine enough to leave as is. You have to consider that the match has to play out in such a way that the proper transformation has to happen and you need to find an opening in a very specific area of said stage.
-Meanwhile IC's get a grab ANYWHERE and continously press A (so tech, much buttons) and its a guaranteed kill with 0 counterplay, no DI no techchase, no potential stage transformation ending ur infinite.
-Im 100% in favor of a wobbling ban, but i would still keep it in doubles, i think in a game where you can 2 man wobble with any character and also save a teammate from an ongoing wobble then this is enough counterplay for it to still be healthy and interesting in a match.
I think wobbling should remain legal, but all players should be permitted to bring a metronome on stage which can be set to a bpm that is out of sync with the wobble
Lol has anyone ever tried this? That's actually a decent idea, unless they're wearing headphones
I don't play Melee, so maybe don't listen to me, but I think a good idea might be to ban it on a case-by-case basis. Like, at a high-top level tournament, just let people do what they gotta do to win. But at a lower-mid level local tournament, maybe ban it as to not discourage newer players? I feel infinites are methodical/reflexive and therefore easy to pull off and can be rough for newbies to deal with. It's good to learn how to grow past these obstacles, but I think it can be turn some people off from the game.
Axe should make a sub goal to go puff at his next major
If you want to ban wobbling you need to figure out where the line is between strong easy moves and actual game breaking bugs.
Sheik chain grabs are also quite easy to perform but should they be banned?
Fox has extremely useful tools that have almost no risk
Jiggly can play very campy because of her horizontal mobility.
Ness back throw.
Marth combos.
Why are you banning it?
It can't be because it's strong, because we have other strong easy to perform moves.
It can't be because it's unfun because we have other unfun easy playstyles.
There needs to be a definite line between wobbling and the closest unfun easy safe move that makes them different.
Make it clear why
Banned - Wobbling
Notbanned - Other infinites/chain grabs.
if you want to ban every strategy that you find boring or you think ruins the game for less experienced players where do you draw the line? are handoffs ok? is it all chaingrabs? is it ok in doubles? should we ban ledge stalling? I just feel like if we ban wobbling we will go down this route of banning everything and wont be able to develop strategies of our own because of a character not even dominating the meta.
If we don't ban wobbling we would only develop strategies against a character with only one strategy
Since a competitive match is 4 stocks, why not set a limit to it, like maybe 2 wobbles per game. A wobble would be grab infinite that goes above 3 hits(3 or less is a grab chain, 4 or more is a wobble). That would still give the kit to Ices, but not impossible to come back from it. If a person already did 2 wobbles and started a 3rd one would count as a 2 stock loss for the ices.
I feel like wobbling has kinda stunted Ice Climbers development. Dysincs look to have so much potential, but it seems like most other options are deemed pretty much useless by a lot of icies. I doubt they'll get better from a wobble ban, but mixing up your options is vital to your opponent not just applying the same counterplay and destroying you. So I do wonder if Icies might place better post ban, if they start utilizing their other options more often, I dunno.
So nice to see someone speaking clearly, fairly, and intelligently on this. So much nonsense is going on over this.
I remember seeing a guy trying to argue saying that “100k people watched me play against Mango” and “80k people watched me play M2K”.. he seems to forget that Mango and M2K were in the title... ban wobbling!
That was ChuDat
I really like what KJH said about it. Just ban wobbling, only wobblers will complain or miss it, and we won't miss them. He said something like "we need to stop acting like ice climbers players are people" lmao
a lot of people with opinions are just spectators only and they don't go to locals or anything. so they only see the very top level play and think, oh it's not a big deal to have wobbling. that was a great point about it being so bad for the competitive health of the game at low-mid level play
Its not fun for the people watching nor for the person getting wobbled. Even if its not totally broken given their kit its still spreading a wave of distaste and corruption. Similar to bayo from smash4, all you can do is watch your character die from one mistake. well before the patch that is.
I wholeheartedly agree, ICs wobbles remind me so much of meta knight in brawl and bayo in sm4sh, it feels cheap, dirty, its a cancer to the community, and seeing as melee needs to keep as much traction as it can, wobbling needs to be gone. Wobbling is a surefire way to piss off multiple people, lose spectators, and lose viewers at events. It literally only harms everyone else in the community, including the events. The only person to benefit from such low and underhanded techniques like this is the ICs, who most likely didnt deserve to win in the first place.
(I understand there are good ICs out there, but here im speaking specifically on wobbling.)
@@2BsWraith Agreed. On a side note, nice name haha.
@@celticwind4122 Oh wow, i didn't realize you had such a cool name also! lol.
it's great to explain your perspective thoroughly. i think infinites shouldn't be used personally
Huge problem too is that if they do the down throw --> dair set up into the wobble, it's practically impossible to do the SDI on the first one on reaction, if they were required to do the dthrow dair chaingrab over and over u can react.
Who wants to ban puff? Lol, are people really that sick of hungrybox?.. cause if we go by a viewer standpoint, I don't see him hurting viewership(I mean it's just one guy) and if we include the other puff players they all play somewhat differently(unlike ICs)
2:02 THIS! I’ve been saying this for years. Seriously go back and watch Wobbles’ Run at Battle of five gods. He did occasionally wobble there but he didn’t rely on it for every single stock. Even Chu when he wasn’t wobbling had an amazing neutral game. It isn’t the character it’s how they’re played.
Wobbling is a crutch. The Icies who don't use wobbling they play better as a result. Just look at Wobbles, he can do so many sick desync combos because he doesn't try to go for the wobble. The sooner it's banned, the healtier it will be for Melee as a whole.
As for Puff, the problem isn't Puff, or hell even Hungrybox. The problem, is stalling. No one likes stalling. It encourages not playing the game, and is a tactic not exclusive to Puff. Don't ban Puff, ban stalling. Force those Puffs to get into the fight.
Stalling is a playstyle though , can't ban the way someone plays. I don't agree with it, but you can't force someone to be more aggressive.
@@josiahvfx Yes they can ban that playstyle. Put a time limit on how long you can camp the air. Project M did, and it was better as a result.
@@DrAnimePhD No, that would be absurd. Puff's aerial mobility is what makes her a viable character and if you try to implement a rule to limit that, she would just be an F-tier garbage character because her ground game is absolute garbage and that wouldn't be fair to all the puff mains as well. She shouldn't be forced to use garbage options because of some rule that limits her from playing how she is supposed to be played imo.
Love the video. I think another thing too is the MU knowledge too. Someone else in the comments said something about people knowing the Fox match up way more than the puff match up. And that could be because of a lot of different reasons. But like over the years that’s how this game goes. It happened way back in the day when basically isai was the best falcon and then others played falcon and then people figured out how to combo and play against falcon. It’s just now a lot of people are so young and this generation of people are babies.
People: let's keep wobble. Axe: WHAT ARE YOU DOING
if you admit that ice climbers are worse without wobbling, and are already not getting good tourney results at high level, then you admit that ices are not good without wobbling.
Wobbles happen to have a good ice climber outside of wobbling
As someone who dosen't play melee, but loves watching it, Wobbling is boring af. Whenever someone picks ice climbers i just change the stream and don't come back.
Youre right, when you wobble, it isnt melee :/
Wobbling is honestly what made me decide to quit competitive melee. I only played lower local tournaments but it was a blast until people started wobbling. For almost 5 or so of my last tournaments most matches would be close and exciting until you made it to quarter/semi-finals just to get wobbled. While I understand "just avoid it" you have to understand that even if you do the entire match, it's not as if IC's have only grab. Overall at this point with the "top" melee players treating IC's as garbage it's miserable to even play at low level since lower levels usually follow what's up at the top in terms of rules.
This whole issue of wobbling really follows the problem with a lot of games out there who are unable to keep their "git gud" mentality under check. At some point once that mentality overtakes a game's community it becomes unenjoyable, so much so that I don't really care about melee not being at Evo, something I would have been extremely passionate about before, it just polarizes me that these top players don't seemingly care about the lower level, where the future of the game is, they only care about themselves and what is happening now with little regard for the future of melee.
Also I think it's too early to ban Puff. I think the issue is the effort needed for the reward is lower than other characters, though how low is not yet known but I can understand why people would want to ban her for that and other reasons.
I play IC's and couldn't agree more. Interesting watch, thanks Axe!
For Puff a simple rule that makes the rule of % advantage not count for that character is fair. If the Puff doesn't plays to kill just to rack up damage then play the stalling on the ledge game until the timer runs out then that Puff's % advantage should count & the time running out to 0 should mean a lost game for the Puff player.
EXCEPT against Icies. Like Hbox smartly did against ChuDat.
the others will just stall puff if that happens
Great points axe. I agree, that expecting a player to premash is definitely overcentralizing gameplay and is rediculous.
And whats also rediculous is everyone wanting to ban puff. I have issued myself a challenge to get good with puff, and its really hard. I ask yall fox mains try the same
camera blinked at 4:15
this video is exactly my opinion on the whole thing, I want to see sick IC plays and not just dang wobbling and Puff is absolutely fine
so i Have a general question for the community including you axe. Would pummeling mid handoff combo be considered as wobbling or pummels between handoffs? would it still be considered wobbling? how long before a pummel between each handoff is considered a wobble etc etc?
Literally said everything I was thinking about puff AND wobbling
I get the reasons for banning wobbling really. It's poor for the lower tier tourneys, it's poor for growing the scene, and most importantly it's poor to watch.
But don't sit there and pretend this won't gut Ice Climbers as a character. This is a character that has all the dumb broken things wobbling is, and is still not broken themselves. If/when they ban wobbling then IC will be gone from all major tourneys for good. It's worth it to the game as a whole, but look at the character you kill when you pull the trigger at least.
Also anyone who wants to ban puff is salty. There's really nothing else to say there.
Ice climbers have really good hand off grab setups that do crazy damage and grab de-sync smash attack is a garunteed kill option. They also have one of the best wave dashes in the game and have crazy de-syncs combo's as well. The reason that you dont see *ANY* of this is because why the fuck would someone go for a sick de-sync combo that they might drop when they could instead get a garunteed infinite. Wobbles wrote an entire book long post about all of Icies crazy mechanics that go unused because of wobbling. Icies players could be so much better if they practiced these but they dont.
My only question is how do you ban and monitor a mechanic? That just seems impossible to me
That's what refs are for in literally every other sport. But yeah, unless it's on stream you'd have to take peoples' word for it, and I can see how that can lead to intense altercations. BUT the honor code already exists when it comes to other things, like reporting who won, so it's not inconceivable that you'd extend it to wobbling, and for every streamed match the commentators could act as refs. It's not hard to spot a wobble, especially if the boundaries are made explicit (e.g. 5+ consecutive pummels or smt).
The freeze glitch (another iceclimbers specific 'tech') is also banned and monitored.
It almost never shows up because performing the glitch is counted as a forfeit.
I like to think about the argument 'wobbling would be banned within a month if it was discovered today.' Because I do believe it would. 'Free infinites' would be patched out in newer games, but melee simply isn't a new game, so we as the competitive community have to be able to discuss these topics to prolong the health of our game and it's competitiors.
From a spectator stand point, it's impossible to sit comfortably and watch a player who probably practiced for weeks or even months for a tournament get wobbled 6-7 times in a set and lose 0-2. It's not good for new players, not good for pro-players, not good for spectators. (ironically) Wobble's icies are a testament of how amazing the character can be to play and watch w/o the need of wobbling; a ban makes complete sense.
Wobbling deserves to be banned. A zero commitment, near-guaranteed infinite followed by a guaranteed stock? The fact that "wobbling above 300% is banned" had to be made a rule should tell you what Wobblers are like and why you don't want them ruining your Melee tournament for everyone else. As for Puff... Yeah, ban Puff. A moderately skilled Puff is just too good when compared to other characters. You don't need to be good at the game to win as Jiggs or use her to beat people better at the game than you. If I was a massive baby, I would go back into the Melee scene, drop Fox, use Jiggs, and win 90% of my games and tournaments for free. Look at the Professional Worlds Best Jiggs Player float around, stalling and ledge camping, timing players out because Jiggs players aren't Melee players. Ban Jiggs.
If melee came out in this day and age wobbling would have been PATCHED INSTANTLY
There's no real reason to not ban wobbling, like you said an unlockable infinite is ridiculous
ThatoneRandomJerk so would wavedashing.
@@jakefox0 Wavedashing confirmed kills your opponent 0-death and only one character can use it. /s
How is freeze glitch banned but wobbling not?
it's not a good look that ice climbers players want wobbling and players who get fucked by ice climbers don't want wobbling. But I agree with Axe.
I played this game for a week and I can wobble pretty consistently lmao
It's a really technical move, huh?
I guess the argument for IC's would be that the setups themselves are difficult, but that's only in the rare case that they are playing against a Top 100 MIOM rated player, or just a player that lives in a region with top IC's players that knows the matchup from loads of experience.
You think it's easy now? Just wait until you start running with an ipod full of 100bpm songs.
start playing IC's without wobbling and show the world why it should be banned, i want to see more sick IC combos in tournaments.
Would you ban wobbling straight up? Or would you say limit it to some defined damage value, then you have to end the wobble?
Axe. you might be my favorite player as of this video. So well made and fuckin respectable.
I took everytime you said "Ice Climbers" and switched it with "Fox" and "Wobbling" with "shine" and it made literally just as much sense.
“Shine is an infinite that can kill anywhere on stage” yeah checks out
Except waveshining actually takes skill
Waveshine across stage into stage spike
Waveshine into upsmash
Waveshine into ______ fill in the blank@@willscharnagl6909
LordofWolves word you can just waveshine every character to death with no risk. Not like it doesn’t work on most characters and you can just sdi out of it even if it does work
@@willscharnagl6909 Can mash out at 0, requires you to have nana in a near perfect place, and requires really good timing.
Considering waveshining as won more games than wobbling, plus you can just infinite shine on Pokemon, it should still be banned if wobbling is.
I only play smash casually and the only game I’ve ever got competitively invested in was Brood War. Isn’t it possible to break out of wobbling?
If we are going to ban wobbling can we do so only in singles. There are plenty of clips of teams play where one person will grab and pommel and there are two made it to a lower hit move to keep the opponent in the grab. The same at 300% rule will apply but at least there will be more risk involved and go out for such a set up.
Wobbles in doubles is fun and lighthearted. Wobbles in singles is really scummy and disrespectful.
Doubles wobbles always gets me hype, and on the other hand singles wobbles makes me lose respect for the player and makes me wanna go watch something else, aka getting bored.
You are such a clever person, by the way I can't wait to see you in the new Pikachu Detective movie :)
He’s not in detective pikachu what are you talking about
If Wobbling isn't banned, why is the freeze glitch banned?
- They both activate via grabbing
- The opponent can't do anything about it
- The player can continue attacking as long as they want
there already is a limit on wobbling, 300% i believe, while freeze glitch is truly infinite and ends the game. wobbling is still stupid though.
Even so that's already way past kill percent. They're basically the same thing.
@@Chronobus i guess the logic is that you can't just time your enemy out. don't get me wrong, i'm not in defense of wobbling, i hate it.
@@simpson6700 I suppose if you're doing the freeze glitch, you could just put the controller down and wait for the game to end. I think we're in agreement that wobbling should be banned.
Axe you should have mentioned the legend himself.
Fly Amanita has almost no clips of him wobbling, always uses cool handoffs (including D-Throw Dair), and is sometimes even a bit extra.
Look at the Apex 2014 pools match and you will see that.
The Jigglypuff being banned is literally just a meme, no one who has brain cells is actually saying it.
At 5 percent it is very easy to mash out. An icys player would need to do some type of chain grab or damage on the other player though some type of chain grab first. If the player uses down throw down air you can do down and away and be able to tech out and thus prevent yourself from getting wobbled
I 100% agree with you
i miss you
@@diego4lonso basta
face reveal when??
Still Have not found a decent argument for banning wobbling. M2K says he doesn't like watching or playing against therefore it should be banned now axe cant even make up a reason. 3:55 4:15 4:45 5:46 6:30 8:00 8:19 Here are some time stamps showing how he doesnt really even have an argument against it. Its idk, i dont like it, or i think this way therefore it should be this way. This is a competitive game we shouldnt make rules that kill characters because we dont like playing against it. With this mind set we might as well ban jigs altogether, chain grabs,tech chases, and fox double laser camping. Among many other things we all dont like to play against in this game but have to overcome to get better. 8:47 now here is the only valid point that i think axe has on this subject. I agree with this, but as far as im concerned if we are going to be playing vanilla melee and not a modded version trying to buff low tiers and even out the meta i dont see a world where this a reason to ban wobbling. Its like telling a ufc fighter he is too good at the ground game and its now agaisnt the rules for him to play around that strength.
Summarization of Axe’s points on why to ban wobbling:
1. Wobbling should be banned because an unblockable infinite, it’s easy, low risk, anywhere on stage.
2. ice climber players are limited by having all of their punish options being worse than wobbling.
3. Ruins your mood when playing against.
Axe’s counterpoint to “Banning will make ICs lose to more characters without wobbling”:
- Axe says that the main cause of losses with wobbling is losing the neutral. This will be independent of wobbling ban.
I just really want to know why these points are relevant. Why is it inherently bad that [insert point 1-3]?
The most hilarious part of this topic is Wobbles weighing in on the matter on Twitter, some rando trying to tell him that he's afraid he'll suck without wobbling, and pretty much every sensible person telling the guy that Wobbles is probably one of the few IC mains who would be totally fine without it (Fly, Chu, Bananas, and a few others as well).
I was also surprised when it got back and I'm very disappointed when a good player gets wobbled to death... so yeah ban pls, glad the discussion is happening
I mean wobbling yes but when did we ever hate Jiggly- oh wait never mind. Jokes aside no we shouldn't ban Jigglypuff. People hate playing against Fox sometimes but they were able to learn the matchup and now it's more even. Same goes for Puff, but we're still trying to work out the matchups currently so we're fine.
Attack the argument, not the person. Great vid Axe!!
lol totally agree. It's so obviously something that should be banned and Im honestly surprised people have put up with it for so long. Literally one grab and you lose a stock, that's not a fight. And on top of that (though it doesnt matter for my argument) it's so incredibly easy to learn. I'm really only a melee beginner, I don't have much skill and I'm just bad, but I managed to learn it in like 2 hours. I can now beat players genuinely better than me with a single grab lol. Ridiculous.
Preach it, Axe!
Handoffs are wobbles with extra steps
I've wondered this myself, I guess I assumed handoffs were more technically challenging with a greater risk of dropping the combo, do you know if that's true?
@@Arrisay they rely on nana rng so they're not at all consistent
In the corner they are, yeah. But they still take WAY more time to learn than wobbling, which can be picked up in 10 minutes
Wobbling was banned. This has already been discussed. The community has agreed to keep wobbling. It sucks that it exists but chain grabbing also exists which is similar to Ice Climber hand offs which is just wobbling with extra steps. Even your Pikachu uses chain grabs.
You can't get wobbled on Randall. Argument is invalid.
You can get handed off on Randall tho >.>
@@Jardonius A situation that when it does happen is sick AF, one of the many reasons why Ice Climbers losing their most boring, overpowered exploit in favor of making the demand for the icies player themselves to be more technically/mechanically proficient at their character as well as at the game in general in order to continue to guarantee punishes (hand-off combos) on the same level as a wobble (just with much less consistency).
At least Puff's upthrow-Rest has a degree of interactivity (DI, stages with low enough platforms, etc.), Wobbling should have been banned years ago when it became the primary reason Icies maintained their tier-list placing, if for nothing else than because it has NO interactivity.
@@DarkCyberElf This was a nice excerpt from your mind, and I would like to add that I also agree with it.
I do believe wobbling *was* banned a long, long time ago, but it came unbanned for reasons I'm not certain of and now it's back to being barred (Or on the way? Not sure of the status anymore).
Needless to say, it's going to be fun to see how the current IC's adapt. Jiggs tho... If I played enough melee to have an opinion on that then I would give one.
I'm in full agreement with you.
Respect your opinion but funny how you said “to me it’s like if I’m losing to a wobbler then I’m just not good enough” which has been the main counterargument against the ban lol
And the other thing
In my crew, we don't play with throws
N grabs
Throwing is cheap
Its the cheap way to start a combo
Nah, smash in general is a flow chart, if you take out part of the cycle then theres no complexity to the game, thats 1 dimensional and short sighted if you ask me.
That sounds fun, I’m gonna try this with my friends.