Nice input Raoul - I feel this is a very fair view. I was at the 2018 debut at Eurobike and spoke with Arevo and the bike designer. In comparison to traditional carbon fiber layup, the 3D printed format allows finer control over wall-thickness and tension / stress. Also spoke with Emery - a US based enterprise who were seeking to launch... but appear to still be TBD. I think this can be a game changer but you raise a lot of valid comments. One of their initial challenges was to resolve the build-plate and during production, they lay in a plate to do the second seat/chain stay. This means they are not doing the 'hooping' for tubes and is perhaps one of the most important observations because it would mean that they have to compensate otherwise in the print-pattern to control strength / tension throughout the frame. With the build-plate and insert - they could do the two parts of the fork though it doesn't resolve this 'continuous off-axis fiber' so is an interesting question. Compensating for no seat-post should be feasible however a real ride will really show how well this goes... for example if the frame has some flex (normal) would it also then be susceptible to twisting so the front and rear twist in opposite directions. On the surface printing, I saw a finished frame with a great finish but it must have been sanded. I also saw a rough frame but it was a bit like 3D printing with the steps and would have to be sanded. -- Onto Vietnamese production - yes, frame production is market independent but I think it is because they can setup a production facility (or have one with current Arevo production) and have to factor in all of the finishing and assembly which is still human powered. They have a production (partner) facility in Germany so can produce there but bikes are still a spin-off / showcase for the technology. One of the things not touched on in the Superstrata messaging is that (technically) it is recyclable so in theory can be broken back down unlike regular carbon fiber production. -- The Superstrata messaging is all over the place - for example a Shimano groupset was mentioned but details were not provided (what level) and it was asked whether a crowdfunding backer just gets a frame and has to put the components on themself. Not clarified. But this mixed messaging also explains the wheel design... while a machine production is clever compared to laying up carbon fiber rims by hand (and they are not the only ones who can do it), the design appears to be about design and not about function or performance.
They're going to run into the inevitable production hassles, have to change the design slightly to meet strength requirements by adding a seat tube, wont be able to make a fork so they'll outsource the fork, the wheels wont meet production schedules so they'll switch to a traditional spoked wheel with alloy rims, etc etc, and. Y 2025 they'll have ridable prototypes that look just like a normal bike from 2004 and weigh 34 lbs.
by far the best analysis of the Superstrata I've watched so far. really appreciate the technical 'deep dive' into structural mechanics and manufacturing. thumbs up and subscribed.
Dont't know where you saw his quote, but Sky Christopherson was the official alternate or backup in 1996 and 2000, does that count as an olympian? He never actually raced in the olympics. I would assume bikes have gotten better in 20+ years. I would doubt he could break any bikes nowadays. Makes his quote a bit less relevant. And his record is a 35+ 200m time trial, which isn't quite as impressive as "world record holder for the velodrome sprint". And the "velodrome sprint" (technically called the individual sprint) is a race and an individual sprint world record would imply the WR time for the fastest final 200m in the race against a competitor, but a 200m time trial record is a qualifying event to seed the races. It seems a weird bike. It isnt UCI legal so can't be raced (and is very heavy anyway and no front derailleur, unlikely to be aero, the geometry looks weird but it is a render I guess), it isn't a great commuter because it doesn't look to have mounts for a rack or mudguards and will be expensive. The parent company arevo don't seem to be updating their social media pages or website either. And the main guy doesn't consider himself a bike guy. The 500,000 combinations doesn't sound like it's just geometry combinations, it looks like that includes all the different options for different size tyres, different wheels, or handlebars etc. I don't know why you'd ever back such an ambitious first project from a company. You get no guarantee on Indiegogo you'll actually ever get the item (and they've hidden that relatively well on their faq section). What's the point? There's better bikes out there right now from well established brands and you can get one today with a guarantee for the same or less than a superstrata.
The fact that they used the metrea crank (shimano tried to establish a hipster/urban groupset market and failed), which has a chain protection ring, comes with a 42t chainring and weighs more than 900g says it all.
Why? It's made to be an entry-mid market e-bike (1900$). I would not expect high end specs for it. Beside they seems to propose a lot of upgrade for people that has the money
@@JeremyMARQUES 1900? No. 4000$ for the E-version. 2800 for the normal version. And why upgrade a crank that costs 160€? They should have bought a proper one for that money in the first place. But no, they had to buy the hipster crap. edit: Oh, and they are not using this crank. For 2800$, you don't even get a groupset from either Shimano, nor Campagnolo, nor SRAM, you'll get Andel Components, whatever that is.
Thank you for a very good assessment. I watched their promotional video and most if not all of the bikes actually being ridden as opposed to wheeled around had regular wire wheels.
Definitely a proof of concept. Highly doubt this will change the cycling world in the next few years. Could also be that the company choose a bike as their 'halo effect' product for their tech. I remain skeptical until the final product is tested by a well established bike reviewer.
More questions: why does the fork curve backwards? Looks like they want a twitchy ride over a stable one. That's great for experienced riders who race or need fast reactions, but for a novice, who this bike is clearly aimed at, that makes you less predictable to surrounding traffic. Much like their promotion video with the short guy, he twitches to the left while he rides, supposedly casually, showing a lack of Rider ability or a lack of bike stability. How will people be able to select the right seatpost? Will there be 500,000 options for that too? Why the extreme set back? Why do all the angles look strange? What I mean is the seatpost comes out at a different angle than the frame it's set in, the head tube looks shallow but the fork curves in making the effective angle more aggressive. I don't know, it just seems like they spent more time at a drafting table trying to make it look cool than they did making it make sense.
in the strata youtube video, you can sees that they dont sit on the bike seat.... for the video clips where the cyclist is sitting on the bike, they are using a different bike.... one with seat tube without seat stays.... so i do not think that they have the design structurally sorted out.....
3D printing is slow, no good for mass manufacturing. They're using it as a marketing tool, because it sounds fancy and gets attention from people who are uneducated or unaware and think somehow it's high tech. These "designers", usually students who have no understanding of bicycles, almost always use mag wheels and crazy frame shapes. I'm surprised the e-bike isn't belt driven with an internal geared hub, because designers get attention from the "derailers suck" people who had one bad experience with a derailer and concluded that every other less efficient mechanism has to be better.
And 3D printing is expensive. It's great for prototyping but that's about it. But I will say that belt drive does make sense for a lot of people. It's not because of the derailleurs but because of the low maintenance.
Noticed in the promo vid the only ones riding the bike seated have some sort of seat tube support behind the saddle not shown in the press pics. Guarantee this will be SpeedX all over again
The first bikes are being delivered to actual customers, and the quality is downright scary. They are cutting holes in standard ControlTech mountain bike handlebars for “internal cable routing”. The front and rear lights are loosely glued in place and falling off. The seatposts are being cut short to fit in the frame design. Your concerns about paint are spot on, customers are complaining that the paint scratches right off with the lightest touch. The weight is laughably heavy. No carbon wheels have been delivered, and they have downgraded drivetrain components to off-brand Ali Express Chinese specials. Worse still, the finishing process involves heavy sanding of the printed surface, going right through the carbon fibers, which are short and not continuous to begin with.
At 1.3 kg a frame that's as heavy as the most basic titanium bike we sell in our shop... and the titanium bike is actually real and doesn't go soft in UV? Oh and it costs about the same and it's hand made in America not made by a robot in Asia... and if you spend more some of the titanium frames are only 950g. I agree with some of the other comments, it's a money grab and will probably never come to the market. If we are investing in 3D printing I personally am most interested in titanium printing. That's a game changer.
Here in Europe and even more in Down Under, where Raul is, those beefy meatbeaters are not so favored. And printing titanium is not a game changer, sicnce it already exists for quite a time and the rules of this game have been adjusted.
So many things here don't make sense. Anyway, if 3d printing were ready for prime time, I'd expect first products to come from established companies, either big bike companies or other with process expertise (I've seen some saddles). Btw, there was a US company (Diamondback or GT?) that made a thermoplastic/carbon mountain bike, maybe early 90's. Front derailleur, cable guides, etc., had to be clamped on since glue didn't work on thermoplastics. It looked kind of crude, unpainted, and would probably be a tough sell today.
Since this is on Indiegogo, there's a significant chance that this bike will be a no-show and someone will just run off with the money. It's also unrealistically cheap for something that is custom-printed to size. Better stay away.
Stupied people dont know that. Ich lache über solche Ideoten nur. Ich wünsche denen das sie nicht nur 2000$ verlieren sondern auch das sie auf ihre Fresse fallen.
So what is really new? I have had 3 Kestrel’s back when I raced tri’s. KM40 x2 and an airfoil pro. I still have a Airfoil Pro I ride occasionally. I love the ride. Not as stiff for sure, but very comfortable with great road vibration absorbing ride.
It's for the cool and trendy with excess cash. I like people trying new things, it gives other people ideas and so it goes on. I`m already growing a man bun to be ready for it`s release.
I've done a bit of research on that matter. The bike is 3D printed with continuous carbon fiber by a company called "arevo". In fact superstrata is not the first company to print bikes in collaboration with them (it's Emery Bikes). Therefore it's actually quite probable, that the product will be delivered to backers. After printing the bike is postprocessed by polishing and painting to get a uniform surface. I welcome this innovative product. But one has to be aware of manufacturing limitations. Since the bike is printed in layers and the bike is composed of hollow tubes the fibers can only be arranged in one direction and therefore the one needs more matrix material bear loads in other directions.
63x stronger than steel so it can fit a maximum rider weight 58583821 lbs. You don't need a seat tube if the seat post can go through the bottom of the top 'tube' but they should have some kind of braces in that frame for it to be rideable.
@@LuescherTeknik Also I don't think you discussed that 3D printing excels at low-volume production. So why do they need a lot of backers? They could start out printing a few bikes a day, and then ramp up as demand increased.
Did they forget to print the seat tube? Should press ‘Print All’ on the print home page.......😏😏😁😁😁 You would need a bike fit first, as you won’t get much adjustment on the seat post. 🤔
Their promo video is so full of BS it is laughable, what's even more laughable is that it works and they are raising a ton of money... The strength numbers make no sense... they probably used the tension strength of unidirectional carbon fibers divided by the density to get those numbers (which have no connection to any real composite property of a final frame)... The guys talking about making 350 grams graphene frames were almost as credible (and have since disappeared)... At one point these guys have a bike set-up as a single speed with no derailleur but a full cassette, at another point they have a guy looking very seriously at the crankset and turning the pedals on a bike stand (looking like a mechanic tuning the bike), except a derailleur is installed and the chain does not go through the pulleys... Seems like nobody on that team has ever assembled a full bicycle in his life... None of the models riding the bikes, look like they actually have been riding a bicycle since they were 8 years old... None of them sit on the saddle on the frame without a seat post at any time except at one point where miraculously appears a bike with a seat tube... The bike seems to have a huge wheelbase and therefore probably rides like a tank... They are raising good money from gullible people...
I guess human error will be in the design instead of the manufacturing, and in buying one, and of course crowdfunding it. That makes three human errors already, and it's still just a dream and a drawing.
I almost had the same exact set of questions (20:20) after watching their videos. It is apparent that a 3D printing process can only lay fibres in-plane. All fibres which need to be applied circumferentially around the tubes cannot be not laid via a 3D printing process as shown by the company. Their design is essentially a UD-layup oriented in the tube directions, which is really great for axial stiffness and strength but horrendous for any torsional loading. I guess the frame would simply delaminate upon torsional impact loading. From what I have observed, their prototype frames look moulded and the whole project is a hoax. I guess in the end they will establish a manufacturing plant in vietnam to produce bikes from thermoset prepreg. Sad to see that a lot of people will get scammed/or already have been scammed, only because they do not have a deeper understanding of composites manufacturing techniques.
There is so much wrong with this design. The same problem you mention with the forks holds for the seat stays and chainstays; maybe they need to build a frame with the chainstay and seat stay on one side only and produce a lefty type fork. If the print head can only lay down 100mm per second, what is going to stop the material from cooling, creating a cold weld when the next layer is deposited.
The frame shape appears to have some planned failure points engineered in to it. Apparently someone wants to know precisely in advance where his product will fail. Torsional bending according to the drive direction axis of the crank mechanism seems to be a deliberate mechanism here. I guess they will apply for a patent on that.
It would be interesting to hear your perspective a year on. Based on Superstrata's updates, delivery is delayed although they appear almost ready to ship in volume. The main complaint from backers is that the final design is different from the early renderings - round seat tube, generally thicker tube shapes, no surprise there. Also they backed off one of the carbon wheel designs as it was proving difficult to make. Superstrata has not published any frame, fork or wheel weights as well. Campaign updates: www.indiegogo.com/projects/superstrata-bike#/updates/all
This looks like an ordinary scam. However, I trying to think about the possible audience. It may possibly appeal to some hipsters but one will be better off with a cool looking fixie build for a fraction of the price of this thing. Raoul, thanks for in-depth analysis and for raising all those questions.
"Attention, cyclists - Is it time for your bike to have an update? Worn tires, tired seat, and old-fashioned alloy tubing or pre-preg can make any bike seem drab. You needn't ride this way, though, when a visit to our on-line consumer direct store can lift your spirits and show you how to freshen up just about everything you can think of. Our helpful sales associates will guide you to whatever you need - and make sure that it all works with your pocketbook, too! So why not stop by today, and be amazed by bikes of the future!" Yes you too in the future your e-bike will have with nuclear reactor, energy so cheap it won't need to be metered!
Yeah why anyone would back this is beyond me. It seems like such a scam. Plus if they ever do actually get made/delivered, the resale on a "completely custom made to measure" bike from a unheard of brand would be pretty low.
@@htdtr Yep. I saw this on FB and commented the same about resale. Given how little space there is to hold the seatpost in place, it would be completely unadjustable. But there are dumb people on FB who think it's great. Obviously, there are enough dumb people that they have $2 million raised.
It has no added features over a normal bike, unless it is really cheap, and i would imagine no. Steel bikes can be made really cheap and work fine. Always seems to be more gimmicks in the bike industry. Example that ceramic speed transmission. It will never come to market
Looking at their promo video there are some good ideas. It uses continuous carbon fibers being laid down and fused together over a structured bed. This is not new technology: Markforged and others use that for their industrial 3d printers and the parts are extremely strong. Unlike standard filament printing with that type of strand you can actually print pretty fast, so I would disregard the thoughts of the 3d printing hobbyists here who have experience with consumer-grade FFM machines only. Where I have some serious doubts is how they will achieve to bridge these curves and close them out without having to lay down internal support structures which add weight; the alternative would be to use a rhombus shape for the internal core but then you also add a lot of material and weight if you seek to have an ovaloid shape on the outside. The only way I can see their claims making sense is if they use a meltable or dissolvable material for the core supports.
when I saw this project I actually found it interesting, it made me wonder what bikes would look like if there were no UCI rules. It’s still a relevant question but I guess any interest in this product is misplaced...
Same old crowd funding game- hype up an ‘innovative’ design that will never make it into production, get paid to make promotional video’s promising the moon on a stick. Then, production delays, take the money and run. Rinse and repeat.
Top Tube, Seat Tube, Seat Stays (in order of importance) are not essential stress parts of the bike frame. BUT frame MUST HAVE THEM! In order to have the best possible performing system for given material and geometry.
...when something looks too good to be true, it is probably because it isn't. Now then, i am going to pop off to the gym on my new landspeeder that I got for a bargain from some dude called Skywalker...
This was an obvious scam. If they HAD devellopped a material this strong and light they could make the lightest and strongest bike ever. But they havent and they cant. Every video they have shown of people riding these have been tensed up people not putting any weight on the seat.
Look at their recent bikes that they've shipped, they're posted on instagram, indiegogo, and facebook. They're getting panned because they look like crap, worse than their renders and mock ups.
To comment on one of your questions: I think, that the frame actually is pretty lightweight, because, you said it yourself, it is NOT a roadbike but a commuter or an ATB, for which the frame isn't heavy. Anyways, I don't think that the bike is a game changer. It think, that somebody, who has experience in marketing tries to find a niche, where he or she gets much money out of in a short period of time and the product won't be available for long...
The question was more about why if the claimed strength to weight is 60 times that of steel, why isn't it significantly lighter? Even if a steel commuter bike frame weighs 2kg the maths claimed doesn't add up.
3D printing right now, is great for mould inserts, dissoluble additions to the bladders or small metal parts... Not the bikes. The "printers" used for aerospace parts uses titanium compounds that go through long high temp cooking processes, and are not used to make the parts lighter but rather reduce their expense/make impossible to CNC parts. So yeah, it will take minute for the one off tech used to make multimillion dollar SpaceX parts to replace a 600€ (cost to manufacture) top end carbon bike sold at 5000€ to punters.
Interesting idea but until there's a bike rt this is going to be questionable. 3D printed bike parts exist -- Pinarello has been involved in their design and production for SKY. But this is a much bigger project.
You don’t need a degree in structural engineering to see that the flat top tube will never provide sufficient vertical stiffness in the absence of a seat tube. It is pure hyped up scamming...... no doubt there will be ‘delays’ due to ‘design constraints’ or ‘manufacturing issues’..... There is a very good reason that the basic double triangle frame design persists.....it works! Can anyone give me a sensible reason for the absence of a seat tube, aside from wanting to look different, along with the ‘3D printed’ bollocks? It won’t work, it will flex and snap! What do they state on the Indiegogo page? “The project team has a working demo, not the final product. Their ability to begin production may be affected by product development or financial challenges” ie ‘product development’.......the pointless design doesn’t work. ‘Financial challenges’......it costs way too much to produce each 3D printed frame that is structurally compromised and unsafe. edit: check out the ‘promotional/ delusional/ misleading video.... None of the frames without seat tubes show a seated rider, they’re all standing on the pedals. A couple of shots of seated riders are on a different frame without seat stays. Utter utter scam. ruclips.net/video/PxRa0JyILQE/видео.html
It's a scam. Look at their comparison to "comparable" road bikes. Based on the prices, they're comparing their bike, with bottom-end components, to top-end bikes with Dura Ace or SRAM Red. If they had compared it to carbon bikes that are in a more commuter-type range, then I'd be less suspicious of their intent. The bikes would be impossible to resell, too. The seat post will have zero adjustability.
it just give me worries, somehow i think it's looks out of place to be a commuter bike in most places. and i won't use it as a sprinting partner until i know that it meets the safety standards for racing.
Whenever you see a "revolutionary" new bike design based on diamond frame but omitting the seat tube, you know: it's shit, and the designers have no clue whatsoever. Just designed for looks without any sort of technical understanding. Always annoys the hell out of me. Also: designs which omit one side of the fork and rear triangle.
It's a fully automated process other than the paint and assembly then why on earth is it going to be made in Vietnam? They have better 3d printing there?
Trillions likes and best comments for you because you are the best in the world but Please we ask you to create an super active account on TikTok and Likee because they are very fast and post videos in Full HD 60fps quality clarity or more , soon please
If they have such an amazing material why is a bike frame the best they can do. Surely this would have much more lucrative applications in aerospace/defense.
Should rename it the "eFlop". Financially and ride quality alike. I can imagine the seat post wobbling around all over the place especially in relation to the bottom bracket. And with the top tube being so compressed as per a normal carbon bike, the head tube will be rotating under load.. Between 15-19 seconds on the product video, watch how the saddle is wobbling around. ruclips.net/video/PxRa0JyILQE/видео.html
Missing seatpost must make the frame flex? I like the design, but it does not look good :D Its like Sbarros old cars with rimless wheels etc. Cool, but in reality nothing you would ever want to ride on. btw.have a $10k 3d printer at work, and I would never bet my life on anything 3d printed....
Nice input Raoul - I feel this is a very fair view.
I was at the 2018 debut at Eurobike and spoke with Arevo and the bike designer. In comparison to traditional carbon fiber layup, the 3D printed format allows finer control over wall-thickness and tension / stress. Also spoke with Emery - a US based enterprise who were seeking to launch... but appear to still be TBD. I think this can be a game changer but you raise a lot of valid comments.
One of their initial challenges was to resolve the build-plate and during production, they lay in a plate to do the second seat/chain stay. This means they are not doing the 'hooping' for tubes and is perhaps one of the most important observations because it would mean that they have to compensate otherwise in the print-pattern to control strength / tension throughout the frame.
With the build-plate and insert - they could do the two parts of the fork though it doesn't resolve this 'continuous off-axis fiber' so is an interesting question. Compensating for no seat-post should be feasible however a real ride will really show how well this goes... for example if the frame has some flex (normal) would it also then be susceptible to twisting so the front and rear twist in opposite directions.
On the surface printing, I saw a finished frame with a great finish but it must have been sanded. I also saw a rough frame but it was a bit like 3D printing with the steps and would have to be sanded.
--
Onto Vietnamese production - yes, frame production is market independent but I think it is because they can setup a production facility (or have one with current Arevo production) and have to factor in all of the finishing and assembly which is still human powered. They have a production (partner) facility in Germany so can produce there but bikes are still a spin-off / showcase for the technology.
One of the things not touched on in the Superstrata messaging is that (technically) it is recyclable so in theory can be broken back down unlike regular carbon fiber production.
--
The Superstrata messaging is all over the place - for example a Shimano groupset was mentioned but details were not provided (what level) and it was asked whether a crowdfunding backer just gets a frame and has to put the components on themself. Not clarified.
But this mixed messaging also explains the wheel design... while a machine production is clever compared to laying up carbon fiber rims by hand (and they are not the only ones who can do it), the design appears to be about design and not about function or performance.
Raoul is far too polite in his review IMO. I give him credit for not laughing uncontrollably throughout.
I want the Hambini review
They're going to run into the inevitable production hassles, have to change the design slightly to meet strength requirements by adding a seat tube, wont be able to make a fork so they'll outsource the fork, the wheels wont meet production schedules so they'll switch to a traditional spoked wheel with alloy rims, etc etc, and. Y 2025 they'll have ridable prototypes that look just like a normal bike from 2004 and weigh 34 lbs.
there wont be any production problems because it will never go into production, there is no plans of making anything except a fancy website.
@@kammui1961 I ordered one and I'm expected to get it in August. 👀
@@spindleblood did you get it?
It's a money grab. This bike will never hit the market.
I was intrigued/excited for all of 10 seconds, then I heard him say "crowdfund campaign".
Ho, with the money they just got, I'm sure it will be released. It just won't look like pictured. I guess the seat tube will make a return 😅
Could be correct. There is a 3D Printed bike already in production though using this process called the Emery One I believe.
as expected from any Indiegogo projects really. I'm not surprised at all
Near all crowdfunded are money grabs !!
Looks like a great idea. You see all those open diamond trusses used everywhere else, railroad bridges, cranes, stadium ceilings...
Seth Jayson 😂
And that concrete footbridge that had a terminal gravity related event.
by far the best analysis of the Superstrata I've watched so far. really appreciate the technical 'deep dive' into structural mechanics and manufacturing. thumbs up and subscribed.
Dont't know where you saw his quote, but Sky Christopherson was the official alternate or backup in 1996 and 2000, does that count as an olympian? He never actually raced in the olympics. I would assume bikes have gotten better in 20+ years. I would doubt he could break any bikes nowadays. Makes his quote a bit less relevant.
And his record is a 35+ 200m time trial, which isn't quite as impressive as "world record holder for the velodrome sprint". And the "velodrome sprint" (technically called the individual sprint) is a race and an individual sprint world record would imply the WR time for the fastest final 200m in the race against a competitor, but a 200m time trial record is a qualifying event to seed the races.
It seems a weird bike. It isnt UCI legal so can't be raced (and is very heavy anyway and no front derailleur, unlikely to be aero, the geometry looks weird but it is a render I guess), it isn't a great commuter because it doesn't look to have mounts for a rack or mudguards and will be expensive. The parent company arevo don't seem to be updating their social media pages or website either. And the main guy doesn't consider himself a bike guy.
The 500,000 combinations doesn't sound like it's just geometry combinations, it looks like that includes all the different options for different size tyres, different wheels, or handlebars etc.
I don't know why you'd ever back such an ambitious first project from a company. You get no guarantee on Indiegogo you'll actually ever get the item (and they've hidden that relatively well on their faq section).
What's the point? There's better bikes out there right now from well established brands and you can get one today with a guarantee for the same or less than a superstrata.
The fact that they used the metrea crank (shimano tried to establish a hipster/urban groupset market and failed), which has a chain protection ring, comes with a 42t chainring and weighs more than 900g says it all.
Yeah and the excuse that it is a render doesn't really work, because if the designer knew bikes they'd put on a high end crankset.
Why? It's made to be an entry-mid market e-bike (1900$). I would not expect high end specs for it. Beside they seems to propose a lot of upgrade for people that has the money
@@JeremyMARQUES 1900? No. 4000$ for the E-version. 2800 for the normal version. And why upgrade a crank that costs 160€? They should have bought a proper one for that money in the first place. But no, they had to buy the hipster crap. edit: Oh, and they are not using this crank. For 2800$, you don't even get a groupset from either Shimano, nor Campagnolo, nor SRAM, you'll get Andel Components, whatever that is.
No human error - apart from the humans that designed it in the first place.
Thank you. Exactly.
Still, it removes one source of uncertainty from the manufacturing process.
Thank you for a very good assessment. I watched their promotional video and most if not all of the bikes actually being ridden as opposed to wheeled around had regular wire wheels.
I'm not an experienced biker, engineer or anything in that topic - And I gotta admit they almost got me with this ^^'
Can relate totally
Definitely a proof of concept. Highly doubt this will change the cycling world in the next few years. Could also be that the company choose a bike as their 'halo effect' product for their tech.
I remain skeptical until the final product is tested by a well established bike reviewer.
I'd highly doubt any of these will even get delivered or that a reviewer will get to ride one.
Another measured and quality video, really informative thank you
I'd love to see it implode when bunny-hopping the rumble strips, awful design, classic geometry is always a winner, but I'm old school :)
More questions: why does the fork curve backwards? Looks like they want a twitchy ride over a stable one. That's great for experienced riders who race or need fast reactions, but for a novice, who this bike is clearly aimed at, that makes you less predictable to surrounding traffic. Much like their promotion video with the short guy, he twitches to the left while he rides, supposedly casually, showing a lack of Rider ability or a lack of bike stability.
How will people be able to select the right seatpost? Will there be 500,000 options for that too? Why the extreme set back? Why do all the angles look strange? What I mean is the seatpost comes out at a different angle than the frame it's set in, the head tube looks shallow but the fork curves in making the effective angle more aggressive.
I don't know, it just seems like they spent more time at a drafting table trying to make it look cool than they did making it make sense.
in the strata youtube video, you can sees that they dont sit on the bike seat.... for the video clips where the cyclist is sitting on the bike, they are using a different bike.... one with seat tube without seat stays.... so i do not think that they have the design structurally sorted out.....
3D printing is slow, no good for mass manufacturing. They're using it as a marketing tool, because it sounds fancy and gets attention from people who are uneducated or unaware and think somehow it's high tech.
These "designers", usually students who have no understanding of bicycles, almost always use mag wheels and crazy frame shapes. I'm surprised the e-bike isn't belt driven with an internal geared hub, because designers get attention from the "derailers suck" people who had one bad experience with a derailer and concluded that every other less efficient mechanism has to be better.
*cough* ceramic speed *cough*
looks like Bill Stephens is one of their designer. ruclips.net/video/W1gOq9CL9CU/видео.html
And 3D printing is expensive. It's great for prototyping but that's about it. But I will say that belt drive does make sense for a lot of people. It's not because of the derailleurs but because of the low maintenance.
Love hearing you talk!
That frame was already bending on my iPad screen
Noticed in the promo vid the only ones riding the bike seated have some sort of seat tube support behind the saddle not shown in the press pics. Guarantee this will be SpeedX all over again
The first bikes are being delivered to actual customers, and the quality is downright scary. They are cutting holes in standard ControlTech mountain bike handlebars for “internal cable routing”. The front and rear lights are loosely glued in place and falling off. The seatposts are being cut short to fit in the frame design. Your concerns about paint are spot on, customers are complaining that the paint scratches right off with the lightest touch. The weight is laughably heavy.
No carbon wheels have been delivered, and they have downgraded drivetrain components to off-brand Ali Express Chinese specials.
Worse still, the finishing process involves heavy sanding of the printed surface, going right through the carbon fibers, which are short and not continuous to begin with.
Yikes!!
@@LuescherTeknik the paint shop ruclips.net/video/4ioTP2BJ9_k/видео.html
At 1.3 kg a frame that's as heavy as the most basic titanium bike we sell in our shop... and the titanium bike is actually real and doesn't go soft in UV? Oh and it costs about the same and it's hand made in America not made by a robot in Asia... and if you spend more some of the titanium frames are only 950g.
I agree with some of the other comments, it's a money grab and will probably never come to the market. If we are investing in 3D printing I personally am most interested in titanium printing. That's a game changer.
Here in Europe and even more in Down Under, where Raul is, those beefy meatbeaters are not so favored. And printing titanium is not a game changer, sicnce it already exists for quite a time and the rules of this game have been adjusted.
What titanium brands do you sell in your shop? The lightest TI frames I have seen are around 1.3kgs. Didn't know sub 1000g was possible.
Andrew G 1.3 are the norm but many Brand's make 1.1kg Titanium frames now. However Litespeed hold the record with the T1SL at 950g.
cyclingtips.com/2020/08/the-titanium-bike-that-thinks-its-a-carbon-aero-bike-bossis-strada-ss/
Check this out...
So many things here don't make sense. Anyway, if 3d printing were ready for prime time, I'd expect first products to come from established companies, either big bike companies or other with process expertise (I've seen some saddles). Btw, there was a US company (Diamondback or GT?) that made a thermoplastic/carbon mountain bike, maybe early 90's. Front derailleur, cable guides, etc., had to be clamped on since glue didn't work on thermoplastics. It looked kind of crude, unpainted, and would probably be a tough sell today.
the clearance between the front wheel and the down tube is massive!
Darkmann - fork may be raked more,
thanks for the video! they should hire you as their consultant!
It’s a scam.
Since this is on Indiegogo, there's a significant chance that this bike will be a no-show and someone will just run off with the money. It's also unrealistically cheap for something that is custom-printed to size. Better stay away.
Stupied people dont know that. Ich lache über solche Ideoten nur. Ich wünsche denen das sie nicht nur 2000$ verlieren sondern auch das sie auf ihre Fresse fallen.
When I saw this, this question popped into my mind and now I can't stop thinking about Laurence Olivier performing dental torture on Dustin Hoffman.
I would think about the dental torture on the designers to get the answer to that question
lots of technical challenges ahead for them with over 2M on indiegogo. Hopefully those backers get their bikes.
So what is really new?
I have had 3 Kestrel’s back when I raced tri’s. KM40 x2 and an airfoil pro. I still have a Airfoil Pro I ride occasionally. I love the ride. Not as stiff for sure, but very comfortable with great road vibration absorbing ride.
That bike is going to flex like a wet noodle
At least they will be able to say that the next version is stiffer! ;)
@@LuescherTeknik Yet more compliant
Ack... thbbft......
@@LuescherTeknik Exactly. LOL
Not necessarily. Can’t go by looks.
The derailler seems to be Shimano Metrea. RD U5000. Shifted by standard gear cable.
@@samhe1521 how do you find them? I've heard some criticism about the ergonomics.
I am waiting for a full transparent aluminum bike!! LOL
It's for the cool and trendy with excess cash. I like people trying new things, it gives other people ideas and so it goes on.
I`m already growing a man bun to be ready for it`s release.
I've done a bit of research on that matter. The bike is 3D printed with continuous carbon fiber by a company called "arevo". In fact superstrata is not the first company to print bikes in collaboration with them (it's Emery Bikes). Therefore it's actually quite probable, that the product will be delivered to backers. After printing the bike is postprocessed by polishing and painting to get a uniform surface. I welcome this innovative product. But one has to be aware of manufacturing limitations. Since the bike is printed in layers and the bike is composed of hollow tubes the fibers can only be arranged in one direction and therefore the one needs more matrix material bear loads in other directions.
here is a video, where can be seen that some part of the bike is being polished (at 2:46): ruclips.net/video/PxRa0JyILQE/видео.html
With the DED robotic arm it *may* not necessarily be thr case that the fibre can only be laid in one direction.
63x stronger than steel so it can fit a maximum rider weight 58583821 lbs. You don't need a seat tube if the seat post can go through the bottom of the top 'tube' but they should have some kind of braces in that frame for it to be rideable.
All that attention to detail and then they ruin it with those innertube valves
I think you forgot the biggest question which is "Why aren't they funding this themselves?" or "Why haven't they found investors to fund this?"
Yes, from a business perspective this is a big unanswered question.
@@LuescherTeknik Also I don't think you discussed that 3D printing excels at low-volume production. So why do they need a lot of backers? They could start out printing a few bikes a day, and then ramp up as demand increased.
Did they forget to print the seat tube? Should press ‘Print All’ on the print home page.......😏😏😁😁😁
You would need a bike fit first, as you won’t get much adjustment on the seat post. 🤔
Yeah. It’d have zero adjustment. The seatpost needs some length inside the frame or the frame won’t hold it.
Their promo video is so full of BS it is laughable, what's even more laughable is that it works and they are raising a ton of money... The strength numbers make no sense... they probably used the tension strength of unidirectional carbon fibers divided by the density to get those numbers (which have no connection to any real composite property of a final frame)... The guys talking about making 350 grams graphene frames were almost as credible (and have since disappeared)... At one point these guys have a bike set-up as a single speed with no derailleur but a full cassette, at another point they have a guy looking very seriously at the crankset and turning the pedals on a bike stand (looking like a mechanic tuning the bike), except a derailleur is installed and the chain does not go through the pulleys... Seems like nobody on that team has ever assembled a full bicycle in his life... None of the models riding the bikes, look like they actually have been riding a bicycle since they were 8 years old... None of them sit on the saddle on the frame without a seat post at any time except at one point where miraculously appears a bike with a seat tube... The bike seems to have a huge wheelbase and therefore probably rides like a tank... They are raising good money from gullible people...
Great point about the labour.
I guess human error will be in the design instead of the manufacturing, and in buying one, and of course crowdfunding it. That makes three human errors already, and it's still just a dream and a drawing.
I almost had the same exact set of questions (20:20) after watching their videos. It is apparent that a 3D printing process can only lay fibres in-plane. All fibres which need to be applied circumferentially around the tubes cannot be not laid via a 3D printing process as shown by the company. Their design is essentially a UD-layup oriented in the tube directions, which is really great for axial stiffness and strength but horrendous for any torsional loading. I guess the frame would simply delaminate upon torsional impact loading. From what I have observed, their prototype frames look moulded and the whole project is a hoax. I guess in the end they will establish a manufacturing plant in vietnam to produce bikes from thermoset prepreg.
Sad to see that a lot of people will get scammed/or already have been scammed, only because they do not have a deeper understanding of composites manufacturing techniques.
There is so much wrong with this design. The same problem you mention with the forks holds for the seat stays and chainstays; maybe they need to build a frame with the chainstay and seat stay on one side only and produce a lefty type fork. If the print head can only lay down 100mm per second, what is going to stop the material from cooling, creating a cold weld when the next layer is deposited.
And it's good value. Very reasonably priced. Yeah right!
The frame shape appears to have some planned failure points engineered in to it. Apparently someone wants to know precisely in advance where his product will fail.
Torsional bending according to the drive direction axis of the crank mechanism seems to be a deliberate mechanism here. I guess they will apply for a patent on that.
Great video !
It would be interesting to hear your perspective a year on. Based on Superstrata's updates, delivery is delayed although they appear almost ready to ship in volume. The main complaint from backers is that the final design is different from the early renderings - round seat tube, generally thicker tube shapes, no surprise there. Also they backed off one of the carbon wheel designs as it was proving difficult to make. Superstrata has not published any frame, fork or wheel weights as well. Campaign updates: www.indiegogo.com/projects/superstrata-bike#/updates/all
What a Joke , as an Engineer myself I would Like to invite The designers to Statics101 and Dynamics 101...
where are the triangles!! lol
Man, you have to believe the triangles, live the triangles, buy a salt lamp and let it flow, maaaan
This looks like an ordinary scam. However, I trying to think about the possible audience. It may possibly appeal to some hipsters but one will be better off with a cool looking fixie build for a fraction of the price of this thing. Raoul, thanks for in-depth analysis and for raising all those questions.
I would never ride a carbon bike without a seat tube
There are many beam bikes that work perfectly well (and are very fast at the same time).
@@_FrankMatthews_ yup but....this is a big but....the chainstays are huge box section and the same with the main frame .
"Attention, cyclists - Is it time for your bike to have an update? Worn tires, tired seat, and old-fashioned alloy tubing or pre-preg can make any bike seem drab. You needn't ride this way, though, when a visit to our on-line consumer direct store can lift your spirits and show you how to freshen up just about everything you can think of. Our helpful sales associates will guide you to whatever you need - and make sure that it all works with your pocketbook, too! So why not stop by today, and be amazed by bikes of the future!"
Yes you too in the future your e-bike will have with nuclear reactor, energy so cheap it won't need to be metered!
This is a Scam to take money.
Yeah why anyone would back this is beyond me. It seems like such a scam. Plus if they ever do actually get made/delivered, the resale on a "completely custom made to measure" bike from a unheard of brand would be pretty low.
@@htdtr Yep. I saw this on FB and commented the same about resale. Given how little space there is to hold the seatpost in place, it would be completely unadjustable. But there are dumb people on FB who think it's great. Obviously, there are enough dumb people that they have $2 million raised.
the valvestems are printet to... a little bit longer and they will touch the hubs.
The valvestems will completely change the game.
They are saying that the weight limit is 400 pounds... Hmmm. No word on the screws for water bottle though.
We need now a levitation bike!🤓🙄
I can only envisage a hipster's chai-bidon coated in doggie dung flung from the back wheel.
It has no added features over a normal bike, unless it is really cheap, and i would imagine no. Steel bikes can be made really cheap and work fine. Always seems to be more gimmicks in the bike industry. Example that ceramic speed transmission. It will never come to market
Looking at their promo video there are some good ideas. It uses continuous carbon fibers being laid down and fused together over a structured bed. This is not new technology: Markforged and others use that for their industrial 3d printers and the parts are extremely strong. Unlike standard filament printing with that type of strand you can actually print pretty fast, so I would disregard the thoughts of the 3d printing hobbyists here who have experience with consumer-grade FFM machines only.
Where I have some serious doubts is how they will achieve to bridge these curves and close them out without having to lay down internal support structures which add weight; the alternative would be to use a rhombus shape for the internal core but then you also add a lot of material and weight if you seek to have an ovaloid shape on the outside. The only way I can see their claims making sense is if they use a meltable or dissolvable material for the core supports.
Also: carbon fiber going in only one direction on a bike is not an advantage at all.
when I saw this project I actually found it interesting, it made me wonder what bikes would look like if there were no UCI rules. It’s still a relevant question but I guess any interest in this product is misplaced...
Why would you put a factory in Vietnam if all the fabrication process is automated? Does not make any sense
Same old crowd funding game- hype up an ‘innovative’ design that will never make it into production, get paid to make promotional video’s promising the moon on a stick. Then, production delays, take the money and run. Rinse and repeat.
Not. My guess is it that would/will either ride like a noodle, or so stiff it will snap. Interested to see if they respond to the questions.
Top Tube, Seat Tube, Seat Stays (in order of importance) are not essential stress parts of the bike frame. BUT frame MUST HAVE THEM! In order to have the best possible performing system for given material and geometry.
step thru bikes do not have a top tube
@@JogBird Do women race on those? Like Tour de France? Nope. Why is that?
Beam bikes have no seat tube, no seat stays. Not really top tube either with only one connection for the beam at the head tube.
...when something looks too good to be true, it is probably because it isn't. Now then, i am going to pop off to the gym on my new landspeeder that I got for a bargain from some dude called Skywalker...
This was an obvious scam.
If they HAD devellopped a material this strong and light they could make the lightest and strongest bike ever.
But they havent and they cant.
Every video they have shown of people riding these have been tensed up people not putting any weight on the seat.
Look at their recent bikes that they've shipped, they're posted on instagram, indiegogo, and facebook. They're getting panned because they look like crap, worse than their renders and mock ups.
You can have a BB mounted derailleurs..
Kestrel produced a carbon bike without a seat tube, back in the early 90s.
Google "beam bikes". They're still around and more advanced than ever before.
Still do
Roy Darnell - my understanding both Kestrel and Fuji last owned by ASA went under, no more production.
Kestrel released several models over the years and produced them until recently. Some of the models were theTalon, Arrow, Airfoil, 4000.
true but this is 3d printing, way diff dude.
To comment on one of your questions: I think, that the frame actually is pretty lightweight, because, you said it yourself, it is NOT a roadbike but a commuter or an ATB, for which the frame isn't heavy. Anyways, I don't think that the bike is a game changer. It think, that somebody, who has experience in marketing tries to find a niche, where he or she gets much money out of in a short period of time and the product won't be available for long...
The question was more about why if the claimed strength to weight is 60 times that of steel, why isn't it significantly lighter? Even if a steel commuter bike frame weighs 2kg the maths claimed doesn't add up.
Structurally a non-starter. Ridiculous. Can't beat the diamond frame for rigidity.
3D printing right now, is great for mould inserts, dissoluble additions to the bladders or small metal parts... Not the bikes. The "printers" used for aerospace parts uses titanium compounds that go through long high temp cooking processes, and are not used to make the parts lighter but rather reduce their expense/make impossible to CNC parts. So yeah, it will take minute for the one off tech used to make multimillion dollar SpaceX parts to replace a 600€ (cost to manufacture) top end carbon bike sold at 5000€ to punters.
Interesting idea but until there's a bike rt this is going to be questionable. 3D printed bike parts exist -- Pinarello has been involved in their design and production for SKY. But this is a much bigger project.
You don’t need a degree in structural engineering to see that the flat top tube will never provide sufficient vertical stiffness in the absence of a seat tube. It is pure hyped up scamming...... no doubt there will be ‘delays’ due to ‘design constraints’ or ‘manufacturing issues’.....
There is a very good reason that the basic double triangle frame design persists.....it works!
Can anyone give me a sensible reason for the absence of a seat tube, aside from wanting to look different, along with the ‘3D printed’ bollocks? It won’t work, it will flex and snap!
What do they state on the Indiegogo page?
“The project team has a working demo, not the final product. Their ability to begin production may be affected by product development or financial challenges”
ie ‘product development’.......the pointless design doesn’t work.
‘Financial challenges’......it costs way too much to produce each 3D printed frame that is structurally compromised and unsafe.
edit: check out the ‘promotional/ delusional/ misleading video....
None of the frames without seat tubes show a seated rider, they’re all standing on the pedals.
A couple of shots of seated riders are on a different frame without seat stays.
Utter utter scam.
ruclips.net/video/PxRa0JyILQE/видео.html
It's a scam. Look at their comparison to "comparable" road bikes. Based on the prices, they're comparing their bike, with bottom-end components, to top-end bikes with Dura Ace or SRAM Red. If they had compared it to carbon bikes that are in a more commuter-type range, then I'd be less suspicious of their intent. The bikes would be impossible to resell, too. The seat post will have zero adjustability.
That's why it's recyclable ;)
it just give me worries, somehow i think it's looks out of place to be a commuter bike in most places.
and i won't use it as a sprinting partner until i know that it meets the safety standards for racing.
It doesn't, the UCI would not approve that firstly due to a lack of seat tube.
Whenever you see a "revolutionary" new bike design based on diamond frame but omitting the seat tube, you know: it's shit, and the designers have no clue whatsoever. Just designed for looks without any sort of technical understanding. Always annoys the hell out of me. Also: designs which omit one side of the fork and rear triangle.
Without a seat tube I can see the top tube and seat stay put under too much pressure. . . . . . Just a computer concept not a real option
They should have said 3-D printed, Bock Chain safe, and Artificial Intelligence designed, and that would have been enough.
Worlds most expensive spring!
It's a fully automated process other than the paint and assembly then why on earth is it going to be made in Vietnam? They have better 3d printing there?
Agreed!
The 3d printer is from a compamy called arevo- not many of these out there at the moment.
Only 1x drivetrain… 🥴 they screwed the design.
Trillions likes and best comments for you because you are the best in the world but Please we ask you to create an super active account on TikTok and Likee because they are very fast and post videos in Full HD 60fps quality clarity or more , soon please
If they have such an amazing material why is a bike frame the best they can do. Surely this would have much more lucrative applications in aerospace/defense.
Cause in aerospace they actually fact-check the marketing claims.
Other than Raul and Hambini :)
Galen Kehler Raul knows his shit, Hambini makes up shit (like his qualifications)
@@dafj5618 How do you know? Or did you just make that up?
Chris Ko he got exposed on 4chan, his real name is Sanjeev Varah not Sachin Hambini
The wheels look like my old Bmx had i think they were kashimax or Kuwahara brand.
3d printing seems to be the next thing. Mountain bikes are 3D printing lugs, and automotive is printing rims. I wonder...
No, it doesn't seem to be the next thing.
3D printing only makes sense for prototyping and extremely small batches.
Should rename it the "eFlop". Financially and ride quality alike. I can imagine the seat post wobbling around all over the place especially in relation to the bottom bracket. And with the top tube being so compressed as per a normal carbon bike, the head tube will be rotating under load.. Between 15-19 seconds on the product video, watch how the saddle is wobbling around. ruclips.net/video/PxRa0JyILQE/видео.html
I noticed that the demo shows very few people pedalling while sitting down. In situations where you would definitely be sitting down.
They will never use PEEK as the matrix since it would be prohibitively expensive compared to nylon.
Yes, the Arevo white paper used PEEK, the Superstrata bike only talks about polyamide
@@LuescherTeknik ruh roh
I'm going with vaporware
You're way too nice, that things is a sh*& sandwich
Itera bike reborn?
Missing seatpost must make the frame flex? I like the design, but it does not look good :D Its like Sbarros old cars with rimless wheels etc. Cool, but in reality nothing you would ever want to ride on. btw.have a $10k 3d printer at work, and I would never bet my life on anything 3d printed....
You're discussing something that doesn't exist
At this point the bikes and the whole exercise seem “fold”able.
The max rider weight will be about 20 kilos.
Crowd funded and tech integrated bikes are all trash. Speedx* was pretty normal for a bike and it still ended up being trash.
Zero frame stiffness
Scam can’t be gamechanger :)
It doesn't have bottle cage mounts!!!! Ridiculous
Seat not horizontal. For that reason I'm out.
Marketing stunt. Heavy and likely ordinary bike