READ ME: It's okay to argue with me, I want you to give me all your takes, whether you love or hate these changes. Plus watch the whole video first, I thoroughly explain my points and give a recap at the end. Definitely helps to see the first video too. I'm an Ace Attorney fan, so I strongly believe it's important for people to argue opposite sides to come to a better conclusion. For example, I used to be pro "Ice is weak to Rock." Lastly, I'm definitely in the camp of testing out every suggestion and labbing things out. For example, I loved trying out Overwatch experimental reworks. They weren't in the real game, so I'm not sure why people were treating experiments and proposals like life or death situations. As an IT Director/software engineer, some of the best solutions and my best successes came from turning my way of thinking around and trying wild things. Also, y'all really love Mamoswine, huh? I do too. 130 Base Attack and Ice Shard + Earthquake + Stealth Rock is all you need. Ice vs Water: I've only played Final Fantasy IV, and there is no water element in the original version. There are spells that totally should be Water, and Water was introduced in the 3D version of Final Fantasy IV. But in the original version, Tidal Wave and Tsunami are non-elemental, while Flood is Ice elemental. The point is that, Ice and Water were the same in at least 1 game, so it counts. As for Genshin, that is an error, never played it. When I was getting feedback on the script, someone suggested adding Genshin as an example of Water and Ice being the same element, and now they feel bad about letting me think only Cryo existed. Regarding Electricity: Regarding Ice's conductivity, I said something incorrect for the sake of brevity. I said something like "cold things are less conductive" which is inaccurate. Conductives like metals are the opposite, they are more conductive when cool. Ice as it's found in nature is not a conductor or superconductor. Semiconductors and insulators are what I was talking about. I won't be oversimplifying to the level I did in the future, as I've misrepresented the logic that Ice conducts worse than Water because of matter state and temperature. Thank you for your understanding. TL;DR: Yes, super conductors are chilled for better conductivity, BUT Ice is not a superconductor. You would have to ADD heat to make Ice more conductive compared to Water. atlas-scientific.com/blog/why-does-conductivity-increase-with-temperature-in-semiconductors/#:~:text=Electrical%20conductivity%20increases%20in%20semiconductors,%2C%20thus%2C%20increasing%20the%20conductivity. pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/1957/tf/tf9575300687
I think the rock weakness should stay. Part of Ice's identity is that it is fragile, but powerful, by hitting super effectively the "strongest" type in Dragon, and neutrally many other targets. Of course, 9 gens later, the types are all much more equal now, so the weaknesses really do pile up for ice, and I think all the resistances you proposed are good, but that's because they still keep it being a niche type with some specific advantages. Resisting earthquake is super useful, and a good opportunity to switch in, and that alone massively improves its usefulness. But rock neutrality is harder to justify: you don't need to talk about salt, or glaciers, or whatever, just throw a rock at an ice sheet and see what happens. The real problem with ice being weak to rock is Stealth Rock, but that's because the move is too busted. They should have made it electric type or something like that, where it doesn't hit many things super effectively, instead of using the type with bad resistances and bad moves but great type effectiveness Anyways great video!! Always love to see people analysing the pokemon mechanics, and trying some good ol' game design on it :p
I liked you changes and i too get to the more resistences to balace ice, in my mind my diference was that instead of resist eletric i made it resist poison and on the same time i made poison be super effect on water. The poison would act more slow because of the cold or someting like that.
Regarding Ice's conductivity, I said something incorrect for the sake of brevity. I said something like "cold things are less conductive" which is inaccurate. Conductives like metals are the opposite, they are more conductive when cool. Semiconductors and insulators are what I was talking about. I won't be oversimplifying to the level I did in the future, as I've misrepresented the logic that Ice conducts worse than Water because of matter state and temperature. Thank you for your understanding. TL;DR: Yes, super conductors are chilled for better conductivity, BUT Ice is not a superconductor. You would have to ADD heat to make Ice more conductive compared to Water. atlas-scientific.com/blog/why-does-conductivity-increase-with-temperature-in-semiconductors/#:~:text=Electrical%20conductivity%20increases%20in%20semiconductors,%2C%20thus%2C%20increasing%20the%20conductivity. pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/1957/tf/tf9575300687
I reckon they should've carried over the frostbite condition from legends arceus considering that I feel like there should be a status condition that halves the special attack of a pokemon. You could therefore make a move called permafrost to give pokemon that status.
Yea the more i think about it, the more I like frostbite over freezing. Freezing something is just too broken and Sleep already exists that prevents pokemon from moving for a couple turns so frostbite i think just works better.
@@supersaiyaneevee1573 Yea I didn’t like Legends as a game at all but frostbite is so much better then freeze. At least with something like sleep which also prevents u from moving it has a way to get around that in sleep talk (they do need to buff sleep talk so it can’t get rest tho cause that’s just annoying unless they already did that idk). And with sleep you’ll guaranteed to wake up after 2-3 turns (2 with rest). Freeze could literally last forever which is so stupid. Yes theirs no way to guarantee freeze something like with sleep but getting frozen is just so annoyingly stressful especially after a few turns of it and even worse if it’s your heal bell mon. I remember when I was little and first getting frozen and was so confused on what it was and at the time I guess I didn’t think of using an item to unthaw (if I even had one). Instead I just kept trying to attack and if my Pokémon got low I healed it with a potion. After like 10 turns I immediately exited the game and reset the battle (I saved right before the battle). And was like if that crap happens again I’m done playing this. Luckily it didn’t happen again.
I like Frozen thematically. Bc it sounds more cool to be frozen then have a cold from a Frostbite. But mechanically Frostbite would defenetly be superior and would be very appreciated to both give Ice types another neace and make another counter to sp attacker witch don't have as many counter as Physical Attackers have. It should have been the sp burn long time ago. But if thet want to make a inbetween with the 2. They should make it like a sp burn without the damage. So if you have Frostbite you have like a 20/30% to be frozen. So it isent a complete replica of burn but special. It would make it different from burn and not completely ditching its previous effect. It just wouldn't take damage but have its sp attack dropped by 50% and have a 20/30% to Freeze every turn. That's just a idé though. Having it as a special burn works fine with me. It would also make Frostlass more viable with Willow wisp and Frostbite. Will be a fun menace. I love Frostlass. Hopefully Frostbite will be implemented eventually. As I really enjoyed it in Legends Arceus and it would be a welcoming change to the Ice types😄
@Liam Skarhed so kinda mixing burn and paralysis together? But with a Sp Atk drop rather than a Phys Atk or Speed drop. And there being a 1/3 chance to be completely frozen like being paralyzed does. (Idr the fully paralyzed chances, 1/3 just as an example). I honestly think that would work REALLY well! My only gripe is that it kinda makes paralysis feel less special but just a small little nitpick.
i think another nice change would be if they changed the frozen status, because it's too inconsistent to reliably use, even though it's really powerful
I think a guaranteed 3 turns, but with more counter-play could work. Maybe make the Magmarizer cure Freeze at the end of each turn when held, and do the same with the Electirizer and Sleep. This means that you can basically turn a Freeze and Sleep into Flinches at the cost of your item. Maybe buff a few abilities the same way (Flame Body is end of turn, Thick Fat, Ice Body, Slush Rush, and Snow Cloak are end of next turn, I'm sure there's a few others that could work too). Also just distribute some more thawing moves and add a couple that thaw the target but gain 20% extra damage (maybe just add that to some fighting moves or something) (And may as well just make the Protector act as a P. Def Assault Vest while wear buffing some evolution items.)
Legends Arceus changed Freeze to Frostbite which acts like a Burn and reduces the afflicted Pokemon's Special Attack. Really wish they had that in Scarlet/Violet.
@@EinSilverRosethat it's not changing it, is removing it outright. Personally i'd just do what most sane games do and have contact moves fo extra damage and remove it.
I would give Ice a resistance to Flying, Ground, and Ice. Ground and ice are already weak to Ice, so it makes sense. Ghost because the Ghost type is currently broken offensively with only dark resisting it. That would give Ice a special role in resisting the type.
Personally, I think the Change to rock was a bit much. It DOES makes sense thematically I agree with you on that, but rock is already a pretty awkward type as is. If stealth rock didnt exist, this change would genuinely be unnecessary in my opinion. Rock is a solid offensive typing but the rock type itself is already a somewhat weak type defensively so rock usually comes into play in coverage moves and obviously stealth rocks. I get the idea behind it but I personally wouldnt have made that call. On the other side, I love your idea for electric. I legit never thought of a possiblity like that to nerf boltbeam so that was fun to see.
I would keep Rock's supereffectiveness to Ice. With all the new resistances, no need for further buffs, specially a big one like Stealth Rock neutrality; and Rock doesn't need an offensive nerf. Since Ice will be more used defensively, Rock will get more value being a good answer to it.
I feel like Ice should resist Fairy. The Fae typically are not found in winter; only spring and summer when it's warm as many Fae have fragile, insectoid wings. So Ice resists Fairy as fairies do not like being around the cold, and Fairy needs some kind of doorstop because their weaknesses are from bad offensive types.
I agree with the ice and water concept . The same way freeze dry is super effective against water , chilling water/ scald should be super effective against ice types in the hypothetical scenario that ice did resist water .
I agree but the problem is that freeze dry should have the condition to either burn or (me personally I think being frozen for an unpredictable amount of time even after switch in is stupid BUT…) frozen (like rest for 1-2 turns) The reason i say that is scald still to this day has no punish and is easily the most spammable move next to a choice specs Boomburst exploud. Even on resist getting a burn off on anything that either doenst have an ability status-negate or set up safeguard, you aren’t safe from spam
I think the resist each other should be ice/ground. In therms os physics, ground it good to retain heat from nature ( thata why's some animals live grounded in winter, and ground don't melt ice) and ABSOLUTELY ICE SHOULD damage eletric because bad conduct,
Ive always believed that Ice and Water should be resistant to one another, but have a very limited set of moves that are super effective to eachother (Freeze Dry, Scald, and physical variants of these)
My personal changes: - Ice now resists Water and Electric - Snow gives Ice Types a 1.2x accuracy buff on all of their moves - Under Snow, Ice Types will be cured from the Burn status effect at the end of each turn - Frostbite is back, and now there's a Wil-O Wisp clone that induces Frostbite that is mostly exclusive to Ice Types - More non-Ice Types get Hail related abilities, that way it's easier to build Snow teams with better synergies (think how historically the best Sun and Sand abusers have rarely been Fire or Rock Type) - New Move: An Ice-Type Magma Storm clone that only Ice Types learn.
Pokémon Cloud and Soil buffed the Ice-Type by making it resist water, reintroducing frostbite and adding a Frostbite Will-o-Wisp called “Cold Wave”. They also implemented Snow to further help them out. Cold Wave is almost exclusively learned by Ice-Types. Snow, Aurora Veil and Cold Wave give defensive Ice-Types plenty of staying power. They also added some Ice-Types with abilities that further improve their staying power. Fur Coat, Paw Pads (Boots as an ability) and Mountaineer (gives immunity to Stealth Rock and Rock moves on switch-in) They also buffed the Bug-Type by reversing its relationship with Fairy and giving it a immunity to confusion.
I really like that idea a lot. I've always thought the Fairy and Bug match up was so dumb. Bug's immunity to confusion would be so cool because Bugs can't get disoriented easily. Think of flies and their hyper perception. Mountaineer is a cool ability, it's like that Create-A-Pokemon. I think it's called Syclant? It's an Ice/Bug type.
@@CammyMeeleTeaYeah, they took that exact ability and put it into the game on an Ice/Flying type called Colbird. Colbird has high HP, Def SpA and Spe with low Atk and SpD. It has good boosting options and utility. I hear they might be buffing Mountaineer to block Rock moves even after switching in so Colbird would be immune to the EdgeQuake combo. Paw Pads belongs to Tempdua, Alolan Ninetales and a new Ice-Type Lycanroc form. Tempdua is an Ice/Fire type that’s an absolutely insane offensive threat with base 137 speed and access to Triple Axel, Flare Blitz and Extreme Speed and more
Good rework I guess, but I'm fine with water resisting ice. People always want ice to be good against water, but it really shouldn't. Maybe it should be neutral, nothing less. Water in liquid form is warmer than ice. Ice types could also suck defensively because it's molecules expanded, causing it to be a bigger target and a weaker one.
Pragmatically, I like all of these proposals, and I think they would improve the ice type and likely bring more balance to the types. That said, on the ice-rock relationship as it stands, I don't think it is without logic. Rather than relying on the salt idea, I think it has to do with the sort of "hardness scale" that pokemon built into the "solid material" types: rock is harder than ice and is thus super effective. Steel is harder than ice and rock, and is thus super effective. Fighting is super effective against all the material types, I guess because skilled martial artists could break these or all these materials are weaker than the fighting spirit, enough force will break anything, similar nonsense etc etc
Very detailed and well thought out strategy to salvage the Ice type from the recurring glass cannon meme they are stuck in. One thing I don't understand is the erasure of Hail as a chip damaging move. Snowscape serves as a buffering tool for the frailty of Ice types. Hail needs a comeback.
If they actually implemented my changes, I'd be cool with chip, but given how in the real game you need so much non-Ice support, I'm glad the chip is gone.
I think snow is a phenomenal change purely because you can still use ice types without having to nerf other pokemon. Sand still gets variety from rock ground and steel types, but ice is the only type to not take hail chip so if you have any non ice type pokemon your just making them worse on your hail team with only one set of goggles to go around
i never saw hail as useful and it only ever seemed to discourage from using non-ice-types on your team. this way, snow gives ice types a benefit while not hurting its teammates
The problem with hail its very difficult to build a team around it. Unlike sandstorm where you can justify making a team of mostly ground, rock, and steel types, nobody is going to build a team of ice types to make use of it. It ends up being more of a burden than a benefit.
I don't understand since sandstorm deals chip damage while ALSO boosting Rock Type's spdef. Maybe because Hail was too niche (only Ice types resist it compared to Rock, Steel and Ground)?
Finally somebody that understands that Water and Ice are similar with certain differences (also there's a good reason Water mons uses ice moves) Still i think the Electric resistance will be good enough (since poison has the same amount of resistances until fairires came on)
Poison also has only 2 weaknesses, to psychic (not a common offensive threat anymore) and ground. It also has one of the best status for a bulky pokemon, with toxic.
I think a good rework is to not think of Ice like frozen water type, but more the concept of cold in general. With that rework in mind, a lot can change. Cold could sometimes be supereffective against fire types if you used moves like Blizzard, it would definitely be super effective against Bug, neutral to Water, resistant against electricity. The list goes on.
I was coming to say this as well! On top of this, Cryo and Hydro have different reactions with different properties (Superconduct and Melt vs Electro-Charged and Vaporize), have a reaction between each other (Frozen), and Hydro even reacts with an element that Cryo doesn't (having Bloom with Dendro).
@@aeiouna Yeah - I think it works because Cryo isn't necessarily an ice equivalent, but a cold equivalent (at least in reactions if not moves), it's very cool
@@Castersvarog Yeah, I was on the Final Fantasy wiki and some games it's different elements and some games it's the same. Like Ice Storm in on game does Water and Ice damage. In some games, the party can only use Ice element moves, but enemies get water element moves.
I’ve been thinking about an Ice Type rework for a while and honestly, I agree with all the changes made in this video. Especially that regarding the Electric Type. I really that believe changing the offensive profile of Electric Types is one of the best ways to balance the game. Ice and Rock could be buffed by becoming resistant to it while Steel could be nerfed by becoming vulnerable to it. Just by changing those three interactions, so many issues with in the type chart are resolved.
So many Gen 1 Rock types are part Ground, it's really easy to think Rock resists Electricity. Heavens forbid you grew up watching the anime like me. I was lied to. Agility isn't a Psychic type Quick Attack.
@@CammyMeeleTea yeah, I was surprised when I got older and realized Electricity was actually neutral to it. Becoming resistant really fits a ton of Rock Types thematically and competitively.
To me I feel that Fighting should lose the super effective instead of Rock. If for nothing else Rock is already a type that is partial to half the game already & tossing a good rock could break ice, but anytime I see someone punch or kick ice it just works as well as you’d expect.
One thing I'd like them to do is make Bug neutral to Ghost or at least make one Bug type move that is super effective againt Ghost types. There are a lot of concepts mixed in the Ghost type in Pokemon, most of them being related to spirit possession on objects/spirit powers on living creatures, but there are also those Pokemon that are related to a dead/decaying corpse and who ir our world are excellent at decomposing organic matter? Exactly, bugs. So to avoid having some extremely specific interaction like Bug doing super effective damage against say Houndstone (which is one of said dead/decaying corpse mons I mentioned) or still doing resisted damage against something like a Mismagius (a more traditional Ghost type), I think it should be neutral to all or keep the Ghost resistance with at least one specific Bug move that is super effective against it, like there already is with Freeze-Dry and Water types or most recently Salt Cure's damage over time against Water and Steel types.
Electric resistance alone would be a good enough change, though the resistance to Water would be a cool addition as well. Making the type resist both Electric and Water might lead to the Ice-types completely outclassing the grass-type though, since it would pack similar resistances while being significantly better offensively and not weak to common moves like U-Turn. The other changes seem unnecessary.
Though at least Grass is one of the three types resisting or being immune to Ground moves (the others being Bug and Flying, which are weak to the Rock coverage they often carry)
Yea, I thought the same thing. The video could have ended at the electric resistance, and then maybe something else as an additional suggestion, but by the end of the video it kinda felt like something that would overhaul the whole meta.
One type i think Ice could resist and make sense is Ghost. Ghosts are often associated with a chill in a place they're haunting, which Ice wouldn't be affected by. Also, Ghost could use the nerf.
I'm no science expert electric is the only believable new ice resistance. Water I don't know seeing ice cubes melt in my sparkling water. Make ice a lesser rock I guess. Add flying, normal and venom to its resume. Thing is ice kinda stands in between rock and steel as seen in the Regi trio. Regice is second in power to Registeel and Regirock at the bottom.
The idea behind Ice and Water resisting each other is like, putting ice in water just ends up with more water, and putting water on top of ice will just end up with more ice
The point behind water and ice mutually resisting each other is that neither water nor ice automatically beats out the other. Which one wins depends on quantity. Dumping some ice cubes into a lake will melt the ice cubes, but pour a cup of water onto a glacier will freeze the water. We can assume that the pokemon itself counts as "more quantity" than the attack, so using an ice move on a water type is equivalent to the former but using a water move on an ice type is equivalent to the latter.
Ice resisting flying, dragon, ground, and grass would be massive. The weakness could stay, but having no resistance is too much in a switch heavy game.
As you mentioned buffing ice's offense would prolly not be a good buff, but simmilarly to your proposed water resist (that I completely agree with btw) I think it would make a lot of thematic sense to have ice and fire be super effective against each other, because again they are two sides of the same coin. As you mentioned cold is the absense of heat energy and what "overpowers" the other is pretty much down to volume.
That's a good point. I've seen people throw around the idea of Ice and Fire interactions. In Pokémon, Fire is both heat and literal Fire (sometimes magma even though it's molten rock). Water smothers Fire, but not necessarily heat. Ice can smother heat, but not necessarily the Fire. It could really go either way. It's funny how Fire has so many resistances.
I feel like if you do make ice and water resistant to each other then water needs to have a move how's only effect is to be super effective against ice. Considering that ice already have a move that does the same with Freeze dry.
6:13 ???? I’m not sure about the other 3 games here but Cryo and Hydro have been different elements since Genshin launched Minor inaccuracy aside, I really like these changes. They’re relatively minor and take the competitive scene into mind better than many other type reworks have. When most people attempt to rebalance the type chart they only keep the type interactions in mind, when there are other things like status, weather, or non type-based move immunities (Prankster, Spore moves, etc) that effect a type’s strength. Or even just little things like how rock types almost always have coverage for flying types in rock type moves so they aren’t in dire need of a buff to compensate for the immunity. I also really like Crabominable getting 5 weaknesses and 5 resistances, its so goofy which fits the energy of the pokemon perfectly Ice is one of my favourite types, so its nice to see it done justice (My other favourites are rock and poison, so I am forced to live in disappointment more often than not)
its also funny when u actually read cryowhopper flower desc n find out the "mist" it sprays isnt actually mist but pure leyline particles lol . I think ice is more of a cold/ low temp type then actual type.Kinda like in re zero where emilia has fire affinity but is named ice witch bcuz she manipulates temp off air around her to create ice. Compared to genshin where fire characters either use fire themself or make stuff out off it like pheonix , chains , shields etc
Let it resist Water Types Let Hail/Snow heal all Ice types in play for 1/16th of it’s max hp at the end of each turn. Water & Ice resisting each other seems fair.
I also think the resistance to Electric is the only believable change proposed. Still not convinced about resisting Water.. water has a higher heat capacity if I'm not mistaken, so I don't think that thematically it would make sense for it to be resisted by Ice. I believe Ice, being one of the "hard" types, should be resistant to Normal, which is also resisted by the other "hard" types (which are all also weak to Fighting). Normal wouldn't be nerfed much by this chance, as most Normal Pokemon can use a plethora of attack types, but would buff Ice given how many Pokemon can use Normal-type attacks. Would it fix everything in the type chart? No, but I think it would make more sense thematically than resisting Ground or being neutral to Rock.
I see, I can see what you're saying about Normal. It makes thematic sense, but from an overall balance sense, resisting Normal still leave Ice outclassed by Steel. Ice vs Water is mentioned, it's all about total volume.
And another thing worth noting that if Ice just gets it's 3 ideal resistances, Abomasnow would have 3 4x resistances to Electric, Water, and Ground (thanks to it's /Grass typing)
Love how you brought up how most other games or even monster collectors just streamline their elemental system by grouping Ice and Water under one element. Even the Pokemon TCG does this. Less need to make all these complex interactions that lead to balance issues. Good on ya for putting in the effort to explain a better way to go about this.
I'm glad, that's exactly what I was going for. My balance philosophy is similar for other games too. I want every character to at least have 1 thing it can do.
@@CammyMeeleTea One thing to note is out of the many monster collectors I have played, Yo-Kai Watch is the only other game I know of that separates Water and Ice but the elemental matchup system is super streamlined so there are a HUGE number of Ice monsters that are viable in the competitive format.
The rock and fighting weakness never made any sense to me. Especially fighting. I guess you can chip ice with a rock, but I’m sure as heck not going to punch a block of ice.
Regarding ice's weakness, im more in favor of eliminating its weakness to steel since many stories, fictional or otherwise, often show steel tools failing in in harsh cold and thus a specialized tool from a specialized metal combination is needed to withstand the cold. Granted, in my hypothetical, steel still resists ice, its just not super effective. I get the logic for rock weakness being gone, but rock struggles the same issues ice types have of many weaknesses but a lot of super effective hits. Moreover, steel is already the best type in the game, losing super effective damage against a type shouldn't harm them as badly as rock losing that. Stab, as little as it matters in this context, should be important to consider because steel strengths isnt in its offenses but that is definitely the case for rock due to 5 weakness but 4 super effective hits.
@CammyMeeleTea same, but as it stands there isn't a lot we can do to buff rock directly, we need to buff the Stab of poison and bug, thus giving more value to rock's resistance to those types. Like a lot of us, fairy shouldn't resistant bug, yet it does. Not sure who else shares this sentiment, but it should alao be weak to bug, purely for balance and give more incentive to use bug moves other than uturn. There's also ghosts and fighting resistance to bug which I don't understand either so in this case, I feel you can either choose one or both. I suspect the reason why bug is resisted by 7 types is to emulate its inherent weakness due to small size, but I think game freak went overboard and bug is the type they use when they want to give a type resistance when they can't think of one. I feel these nerfs would good because all three types are already good and need something to dial them down while also give the types still resistant to bug more value defensively. As for poison, I think it's pretty good as is, but giving water a weakness to poison with water pollution as the explanation. In relation to rock, all those water rock types get some more mileage out of the dual typing by being some of the few water types to not be hurt by poison.
I'm kind of late to comment so not sure if you will see this, but I think that both thematically and mechanically, it would make sense for ice to resist fairy. In a lot of fiction/folklore, fairies are tied to nature, plant life, life force, etc. Ice is, in a sense, the lack of that life force. Think White Walkers vs Children of the forest in game of thrones, or the Faewild in D&D. In that sense, thematically it tracks. As for mechanically, fairy type moves are already extremely spamable (play rough and moonblast) so another resist would be great. The best part is that all 3 current fairy resists are weak to ground, so Ice would have a niche as a fairy resist that isn't ground weak.
Great video, but wanted to point out in Genshin Impact, the ice and water element are in fact completely different elements. They are called Cryo and Hydro specifically.
Again, I really like your takes. I agree with the whole video tbh, I'm sad Rock loses something, but since you plan on reworking it I'm fine with it, and can't wait for your next video. I hope other people will sub as well and that you'll have fun making nee interesting videos!
a lot of the resistances presented here are ones that it would now share with the grass type, meaning it might be competing with that type in terms of team roles. the two types overall are different enough that it probably wouldn't be a problem in most examples, but it means some defensive ice types might still not be able to stand out as much depending on their niche still, it makes thinking about pokemon like abomasnow more fun, so i'd be happy at least lol
I like the idea to make ICE more defensively viable, not too fond of changing GROUND and ROCK in relation to ICE but I dig the other two that you suggested. Also, thoughts on Aurora Veil in the Snow since the new weather boosts physical defense of ICE?
I think it's really interesting. Aurora Veil is more consistent on the rare Snow Warning Pokémon. And at the moment the best Snow setter is Chilly Reception Slowking. I'm curious to see what a good manual Hail/Snow setter looks like. I feel like I've really only seen Rain and Sun manually set for the damage boosts.
I like you changes to the type, it feels very similar to grass resitences but with diferent set of weakness (still feel worst than grass in the defensive department but way stronger in the offensive one)
Ice the red headed stepchild of Game freak. Ice type is beautiful and should resist Poison, Bug, Grass, Normal and Flying. What damage could insects toxins normal hits or wind blowing do to solid ice or fresh pliable snow? Fighting is a cringe weakness but if Steel and Rock break by fisticuffs so be it. It doesn't help that there are so few Ice Pokémon and the regional forms as repaints are insult to injury.
Why do people keep adding Bug and Grass to lists of resistances for any type. I see this all the time but does anyone know Bug and Grass are the most resisted types in the game? Almost half the types in the game resist Bug and Grass. Bug has been pretty bad for a while now, but Grass is mostly carried by Pokémon with amazing movepools. We shouldn’t be tearing down weaker types to try to build up other weaker ones.
Bug added as Ice resistance is logical. You can't have solid types like Rock and Steel resist Bug and not extra hard Ice. The Bug type has been powered up generation after generation since so much so bugs have become a menace in the games (Infestation, First Impression, U-turn, X scissor, Pounce, Bug Buzz, Leech Life, Bug Bite, Megahorn, Pollen Puff, Quiver Dance).
To buff the Bug type, I'd drop its weakness to Flying type. This was originally because most Flying types were birds and birds eat bugs, but since then Flying types have become a lot more diverse and the match up no longer makes much sense. I'd also make it so Flying, Fairy and Ghost no longer resist Bug. Flying for the reason stated above, and Fairy and Ghost because it doesn't make much thematic sense. Why does Ghost resist Bug? If it's because Ghosts are incorporeal then shouldn't it resist Rock and Steel as well? And Fairy for balance reasons because Fairy is uber strong.
I would keep electric neutral v ice, make rock neutral v ice, but then rock resist electric. Then I would make fire and ice x2 against each other. I would have ice resist flying, bug, and water. Bug would become neutral against poison, ghost, flying and fire, but 1/2 against ice and rock. Bug would now resist psychic. This makes bug more offensive, but worse against the 'hard' types ice, rock, and steel. Ice becomes more defensive, almost the same as in the video, but now hot and cold cancel out. Rock gains two new resistances, making it more defensive, and loses its effectiveness against ice. As some people are saying, they should have kept the frostbite condition. I think it would work if you could only freeze a pokemon that was already frost bitten. Same with sleep and drowsiness. Edit: More radically, I would remove levitate and flying ground immunity. Instead each species can be either aerial or non aerial. This way many bug types with wings either gain a new second type, or gain ground immunity.
Love how you explained the relationship between Ice and Water. If any two types should be consolidated into one, it should be Ground and Rock (Earth type?), not Water and Ice since they are much more distinct from one another.
Finally, someone who gets how the interaction between ice and water should work. I agree with this reasoning completely. I like that you included electric type in resistances. Another thing why ice could resist electric type is that ice does not conduct electricity in any form. Ice cannot carry electricity because it lacks mobile ions and electrons. Which... makes me question why this interaction is not present in the first place. Ice resisting ground may have the weakest arguments out of these three, but it's still valid. Now, while I like rock change, I'm not sure if that's a good idea. I mean, the reasoning sounds fine. However, the above buffs are massive. Ground, water and electric are important types in competitive for a good reason. Now by removing rock type weakness, ice type could be a bit too strong. Oh, and one more funny thing: with these changes, we also give fire, steel and fighting types a massive buff. When we remove one weakness, other weaknesses are gaining more importance. Not to mention, by nerfing electric, ground and water, they gained another bit of importance as ice killers. Funny how that works, huh? In particular, that makes fire type more important than it already is. Fire type is already a strong, common type in competitive, so it doesn't need help. Steel deserves only nerfs, it's absurd how strong it is. Only fighting getting better is fine. It was one of the best types in generation 5. But when fairy arrived, it became just okay. ... By the way. Why is steel type supereffective against ice type, again? Yes, we do use various metals to destroy ice and such, but steel and many other metals grow more and more brittle as temperature decreases. In fact, it's not very difficult to make iron break in cold temperatures. Now imagine what could happen to pokemon that is literally metal.
I personally think ice should not resist ground, it already hits it with super effective which does make sense, but resisting it doesn't have any logic reasoning. Bug and grass should be not very effective as most insects and plants have a hard time surviving in cold places, this would give Pokemons like abomasnow a new chance to shine. Ice resisting Electric is pretty nice and does make sense, it would help out a lot the combination of water ice typying. And rock should remain super effective on ice and also should remain neutral defense on ice, rock is in most cases way harder than ice, I can keep throwing one on ice and the rock will not break, now imagine I'm a rock type, I can keep doing it forever.
Love the physics but iirc it's actually the opposite --- lower temperatures make substances conduct more electricity aka lower the resistance aka they'd be better conductors. And since Pokemon logic says that Water conducts Electricity so it's weak to it, it'd make it so Ice is even weaker no?
In regards to Bug, I stand by my view that defensively it’s fine. It’s real problem is that it can’t hit anything very well because 7 types resist it and the types it does hit have types that do that better than bugs. In a sense, it has the opposite problem to Ice. I 100% agree that at minimum Bug should be neutral to fairy.
My view on rock and ice interaction mainly had to do with hardness vs thin layer of ice. Which is why the logic appears to be Fighting > Steel > Rock > Ice in terms of “solid being able to break less solid”.
Happy I found a kindred spirit who loves the Ice type. Always felt they hold a regal air. After Gen 1 developers sought to nerf them and succeeded. Honestly Water and Ice are better to resist each other for the reasons mentioned. Electric also to be resisted by Ice in order to highlight the molecular difference between Ice and Water. This way gamers will stop viewing Ice as a Water type derivative and more something of its own league. Other good resistances are Normal, Poison, Flying and Dragon. Normal is the type least affected by such change given it damages all types equally with the exception of Steel and Rock. Ice added creates inconsequential shift in the chart. Same with Poison which is resisted by Rock, Bug, Ghost and Ground. Poison is extra bulky and lethal with corrosion and toxic spikes therefore it doesn't feel threatened by another resistance like Ice. Flying also has the potential to deal minimal damage to Ice because violent wind currents tend to be cool so Ice isn't phased. Quite the opposite Ice is strengthened by winds to retain its low temperature and solid form. Dragon could be ineffective on grounds that its typing hates low temperatures making dragons go into dormancy losing their power to deal effective hits on Ice.
The reason fighting is strong against ice is a direct result of Daniel Larusso breaking those ice slates in karate kid 2 and I refuse to hear any arguments to the contrary lmao.
I watched this video awhile ago and I really loved the changes you suggested,- so much so that I wanted to implement them in a fan game project I started working on. But upon looking the changes over I realized something very unfortunate. There is one other type in the game that resists water, ground and electric - the grass type. The only differences in their defensive profiles would be their resistances to themselves (grass resists grass - ice resists ice) which arguably gives the ice type the defensive edge on grass- even considering grass's immunity to spore and powder moves. The final nail in the coffin is that grass's offensive coverage PALES in comparison to Ice's coverage- it is no contest. I will say that grass type has a lot of unique moves to tech in like the myriad of status moves and healing moves, but I don't think that distinguishes the grass type enough from the ice type. With that I concluded that while your changes are a great approach to buffing the ice type, it would be to the detriment of an already struggling type with 5 weaknesses and 7 types resisting it offensively. I am not saying all of this to bash on you,- I hope I'm not coming off as rude. But from my perspective this could completely kill the viability of the grass type competitively.
It's not at all rude. Grass has offensive and defensive issues. Bug has offensive issues. And Rock has defensive issues. The series was first designed mostly with single player and trading in mind. Rocks were the early game tanky enemies that were meant to be difficult until you got "magic" like in other RPGs, but they've been a defensive joke since Steel existed. Bug was the early game power house "class" and now it can't hit anything. Grass was also an early game and specialist class, but also can't hit stuff and is weak to a lot. When you look at how old Pokémon is, and how things were designed compared to other RPGs, you'll see the similarity. They've gradually started designing a lot of Pokémon much more differently than how they acted in the early games, and so a lot of these typing roles have become obsolete, especially if it limits their Pokémon design. I haven't gotten to Grass yet. But off the top of my head there are a few ways I'd change Grass. It's hard to justify taking away weaknesses or hitting more things because it's one of those types that conceptually loses to so much. Of the weaknesses you can take away, you nerf bad types. So it's one of those types you have to rearrange at the same time as other types. There is opportunity for Grass to resist Fairy, (part of why I didn't want to give the Fairy resist to Ice). Taking the Fairy's resistance to Bug and turning that into Bug resisting Fairy. Or even some wild experiments like Poison and Grass being neutral because of all the Poison plants. Poison being super effective on Flyin or Water because of pollution, and other tests. Absolutely, keep testing out stuff in mods! I have 0 ability to mod without a guide, so I'm pleased that you were able to test it out. It doesnt bother me to be wrong, or need to keep working on an idea. It's fun to try things until it works. That's how it works in my real job. I'm an IT Director (to put it simply to avoid doxxing myself) and part of that is Engineering solutions for my organization. They'll come to me with a problem, a goal, or even advice and then I see what kinds of programs or policies we can add to adjust things. Sometimes I look at systems they work with, try to improve them, and some changes they totally hate, so I improve it again. I don't have a degree or any certifications by the way. I got into IT because i was proposing solutions to a system they had that could be more efficient and consistent. The IT there liked my ideas and plans. I switched departments and shot my way up in just 3 years because I'm willing to try, learn, and try again so fast, that it doesn't matter how much I failed. So the cycle of ideation and implementation is supposed to be like this. It's nice to get it right first try, but it's not always that clean. That freedom to propose something and fail also extends to commenters on this channel. Sometimes people have the seed of a good idea, and just don't know what to do with it. Feedback, especially raw testing like that, is completely welcome. I'm actually learning to code in my free time because I ultimately want to be able to implement changes/mods to other games, or even help work on a game. Keep up what you're doing too. That's a great skill and the world really needs more programmers. Even if you're just into modding, there's tons of RUclipsrs and Streamers who just want someone else to implement the silly mods they come up with. Thanks again though, I now know what else to consider if I eventually get to a Grass rework. And that really helps because my Stealth Rock video is off schedule because of the recent Pokémon HOME changes.
@@CammyMeeleTea Wow! I didn't expect such a detailed and thoughtful reply! I'm really stoked! If I'm being honest I'm pretty new to coding myself and I'm only on my second Pokemon Essentials fan game project. I am making my current project into an 18 gym leader game (one for each type) so I wanted to look at many ways to make every type shine. Beyond just experimenting with type matchups I have also looked at a battlefield system that effects types, moves and abilities on battlefield by battlefield basis. (If you've heard of Pokemon Reborn, Rejuvenation, and/or Desolation then its directly inspired from those games.) I have settled on making fairy weak to bug and bug resist fairy. Also bug type pokemon being immune to confusion. (thanks to 9Destra's comment on your video) With the ice type I will have it resist water for now. But, I'm willing to change those for a long while now,- I'm pretty early into development. Who knows? Maybe I'll include even more of your type changes ideas :) I appreciate your story too, I'm fired up after hearing it! I'll look forward to your future videos! Thank you!
@@DuelingSteel The battlefield thing sounds cool, it's a lot like how in the Pokémon anime there were "unofficial" fields for different Pokémon types. A gym for each type also sounds cool. It's why I liked that Scarlet and Violet had a gym, titan, or base for each type.
I really like the idea of an electric resistance since the unique ability to resist bolt-beam is one hell of a useful niche. However, I'm not quite so sold on the other changes. Maybe an additional resistance would be nice, but I feel like changing the interaction with 4 types is a major over-correction.
You’re making the rock thing much more complex than it is. Ice is brittle and weak. What happens when you chuck a rock at ice? It breaks. It’s literally that simple, and is seen literally all the time. I’d argue it makes much more sense logically and gameplay wise to remove the steel weakness
Please explain your reasoning for Steel being weak to Ice. After all, Ice is brittle and weak. What happens when you chuck Steel at Ice? It breaks. It's literally that simple, and is seen literally all the time.
Fire and Ice should be super effective against the other . Given most r extrime types . Also make ice resist ghost and dark types and so should those twos as well .
Well, you know what I said last video. But, Ice resisting: Dragon, Fairy, Psychic, Ice, Flying & remove the Rock weakness in exchange for also resisting fairy and beating Ghost could always go the Gen 1/Final Fantasy route and make Ice super effective on Fire again. {poor, Charizard, Ho-oh, Moltres, Magcargo, Camerupt and Groudon} How about a Frosty/Frigid Terrain and let that take care of some of the more technical suggestions/changes {eg - swapping the Flying resist for a Water resist; and making Ice resist Rock, Ground, Grass, Bug, Electric, Fighting ???} {Increase frostbite chance by x%}
Dude, you’re completely wrong about cold objects being worse conductors for electricity. The less heat is present in an object, the BETTER it is as a conductor. That’s how semi-conductors work. It’s also why you want to keep a CPU as cold as possible.
Personally, in my own 3DS hacks, I change the type chart to make Ice resist Water, Grass and Normal (and to bring back Steel's resistances to Ghost and Dark, for that matter). Then I buff each Ice-type Pokemon individually, like giving Weavile Technician, or increasing Cloyster's base HP or making Glaceon faster, making Beartic Ice/Fighting, and the like.
I always thought the same, Ice and Water should resist each other, and the moves like Freeze dry being super effective against water and Scald super effective to Ice, that way they both have a move to counter each other, also buffing Freeze dry to 80, so is the same as Scald
I think Ice also should hit Steel type hard, as being exposed to low temperatures can break strong metals (like what happened to the Titanic). It would be interesting to see two types actually hit each other hard...
3:50 aren’t super conductors insanely cold to optimize conduction? I’m not a physics expert but I’m pretty sure heat energy gets in the way of electrical conduction
Super conductors conduct electricity, and because they conduct well, they heat up more, and risk denaturing, and becoming less conductive. Frozen water specifically, isn't a conductor or a super conductor. An Ice-Steel type should actually get bodied by Electricity for that reason. 😆
Unrelated, but I've always felt like Normal needed to resist one type. It has an immunity to ghost, but that's kind of it. I'd make Normal resist dark in order to make up steel (thankfully) losing a dark resist. Also, Normal was actually planned to be good against the dark type in the gen 2 spaceworld 97 demo.
Where I thought you were going with the ice and water type interaction was that they should be weak to each other like adding more water melts the ice, and adding more ice power freezes the water.
I don't agree with the ice-rock mutual neutrality: You smash a pebble and an ice cube of similar size together, the ice cube shatters. You throw a boulder at a glacier and it's gonna leave a dent. But then glaciers will tore through whole continents overtime. The bit about glaciers tearing through land... That's more of an argument for ground, not rock. But even if we apply it to rock, if anything that sounds like the two types should be mutually super-effective, not neutral. Also, you refused to give ice a flying res because flying was already a balanced type. But... Electric is a fair amount worse than flying, is it not? In raw numbers it seems balanced, but the problem is that the one type with an electric immunity happens to also be one of the best and most common types in the game in ground. It doesn't help that everything and their mother also carries earthquake coverage, so electric isn't that great defensively either. Flying doesn't have to deal with immunities. Steel is very common like ground, but it's not necessarily a hard counter to flying. There's also the moveset to keep in mind: Flying's best offensive moves are Hurricane and Brave Bird. Electric's are Thunder, which is very comparable to Hurricane, and Wild Charge which sucks. Most flying types also get near-exclusive access to Roost and Tailwind, a priviledge unmatched by electrics since their only relevant status move in t-wave has a wider distribution. The only thing you could argue in favor of electric is the stealth rocks neutrality, but then again flying has an immunity to spikes and t-spikes to compensate. Considering the pokemon that have been good and relevant historically even in singles, I think flying is the clear winner. Lastly, I would limit ice to only two extra resistances. It was clearly created as a glass-cannon type and I'd rather conserve _some_ of that spirit. So I'd either give it water+ground or water+flying resistances.
The heat of fusion is useful for determining the amount of energy transfer required to freeze water or to melt ice. Most Pokémon battles are thematically very dynamic, so we should consider more than masses and hydrostatic systems. As a liquid, water can undergo deformation easily. I can stir one liter of water or transfer it to a different container, and it'll still be liquid water. I can restore it to its previous shape by returning it to its previous container. If I have a one kilogram cube of ice, I can smash it and it'll still be one kilogram of ice, but I can't restore it to its previous shape. A small volume of flowing cold water can melt ice easily via convection. It can even crack the ice via thermal shock. Water doesn't need to rely on sheer mass to disrupt the structural integrity of a mass of ice, but ice needs enough mass to absorb energy from water in order to freeze it. Ice should absolutely not resist Water. I can see the argument for Rock being super-effective against Ice, because like with Fighting and Steel, "Hard thing smash brittle thing!" I like the idea of making Ice super-effective against Rock because freeze-thaw cycles are good at cracking rocks, as illustrated by your potholes example. You're right that making such a change would just nerf Rock even harder, so I wouldn't exactly be cheering for that. My choices for new resistances are Electric and Ground. The electrical properties of ice depend on the crystal structure. I'd be happy with hand-waving that one to make Ice resist Electric. Making Ice resist Ground also sounds fair since throwing dirt at ice doesn't really do anything to it. Making Ice resist Flying would be nice, but I don't have any thematic justifications for that proposal. Hot take: Make Ice normally-effective against Fire like it was in Gen I, since the ice will melt and turn into water. I'm looking forward to your future videos on buffing Grass, Bug, and Rock! I think it would be cool if Bug were super-effective against Ground. A lot of insects burrow in the ground. Ants are probably the best example.
In my ROM hack, Ice resists Ground Flying and Dragon (dragon is huge since dragon moves are very strong in the hack now and it allows ice types to check them even better) but I’ve never thought about electric before. I don’t mind it. I’m indifferent to ice resisting water though. I agree about bug and grass not needing the nerf. Speaking of bug, bug is now neutral on fairy ghost and fighting in my hack and bug types in general are massively buffed with much better stats very powerful buffed moves including new ones and a massively distributed first impression as well, bug deserves it. Another one of the stinkier types is buffed indirectly with black sludge healing double but that would be absurd in a competitive sense- this is a hack though so it’s strictly in game and makes poison types amazing defensive mons moreso than they already were. Rock is indirectly buffed from all the incredible new move buffs they’ve gotten and the fact that sand stream is much more widely distributed and they all get a move called Sedimend for the most part which is a reskinned Shore Up. Tons of other crappy types got huge buffs so it’s a fun time
Psychic could use one more resist and Normal should gain a resist and a super-effective. While thematically I can imagine Normal being this to Fairy (a Normal being be unaware of magic) it’s hard to imagine this for Psychic. Maybe Psychic resists Poison. Rock and Ground not resisting themselves is weird but it may be a good thematic difference with Dragon and Ghost be super-effective against themselves. If I want to make the type chart, more “normal” then Rock and Ground should resist themselves. Bug should resist Ground. I used to think that either Grass and Bug (leaning more to Bug) should resist and be super-effective against Fairy, but only if Normal doesn’t.
Maybe make Dragon super-effective against Electric so at least one type is hit super-effectively for Dragon. Thematically? Dunno, maybe Dragons harness “pure energy” and so know how to channel electricity.
Okay those rock vs ice arguments all make way more sense than the one I thought about, which is just. If you throw a rock at ice (like a frozen lake) the ice breaks but the rock doesnt lol that is probably the dumbest explanation compared to all the other actual ones
Exactly. Because the normal trait of a rock isn't being thrown. In nature, rocks don't fly around at high speed on their own. So if we used that logic, Steel should be super effective on more. Because of a certain type of metal projectile that is very super effective on living things.
@@CammyMeeleTea yeah lol i just think it's funny how people actually have some slightly logical explanations for it and then we have mine which is just throw a rock at ice xD
@@Bonkpunktexe No, it's fine look at the other comments, you're not alone. It doesn't make you dumb or anything. It's just something that wasn't worth thinking about until now. For example, I felt stupid because I know nothing about weddings despite the fact that I'm going to be getting married. But it's not really my fault, school doesn't teach it, and a lot of men aren't socialized to talk about or read about wedding stuff. Wedding planning is a skill and a passion that is learned like cooking, weightlifting, or playing an instrument. We can't know everything, so it's fine to have a bad argument about something. It's not like you or study rocks and glaciers for work.
Some ideas for ice pokemon. A fire/ice pokemon with an ability called Heatpump, makes the Pokemon immune to ice and fire moves and raises SpAtk when hit by them. An ability or hold item called Shatterproof (Ice), removes their weakness to steel rock and fighting. Or an ability called Absolute Zero that makes it immune to ice and fire moves and causes opponent to lose 1/8th HP or 30% to freeze on contact. Sidenote, they should add a move called hypothermia, a damaging move that may cause sleep (30%)
I've always said that there's definitely a case for Ice losing its Rock weakness. Living in Canada, I can tell you that there's a point where ice cannot be broken by just throwing a rock at it and, if anything, ice ACTIVELY destroys rock! So many buildings here end up suffering severe structural damage because water got inside of cracks or gaps in the foundation and frozen, pushing the concrete apart, cracking it, and ultimately making it crumble.
making ice resist electric, nerfs electric alot because there is a good bit of ice types that are also water types and removing the most reliable method of dealing with them makes water stronger and electric weaker. dealing with lapras or cloyster who is only weak to rock and fighting sounds abysmal. a much more reasonable thing to do is to make ice resist water, like you mentioned. ice should also resist fairy for gameplay balance. its a good type to resis to give it a better defensive profile. while rock might make more sense to remove as a weakness, it nerfs rock alot to lose one of the few good types its good against. it would only be strong to flying and fire at that point. rock is already very mid defensively, taking away its offensive profile is just going to hurt rock more than help ice. fighting is obviously the better choice because fighting is already great agaisnt 4 other types. it doesnt need to have ice as well.
I don't fully agree with rock no longer 2X to ice change since it chips away the one thing that rocks have going for it and that's being a solid offensive type. if anything, which is something I still feel they need to rework a bit, is stealth rock. other than that, Definitely agree with the changes; especially with making water and ice not very effective to each other. One buff that's been on my mind for ice type is to improve hail even further by making it that non-ice types other than fire would have their speed drop by one or two stages when it's active. thematically, it would make sense since you tend to move slower in colder climate if you're body is not used to it.
The Rock vs Ice argument is a bit of a crab bucket. Everyone is telling me that it shouldn't be done because it makes Rock worse, but why not fix both types? If two people are hanging from a cliff, I'm not going to leave them both there because it's unfair to pull up one first.
@@CammyMeeleTea I'm on board with rock also getting a bit of a tweak. Was under the impression that you were mainly focused on fixing ice type only and I didn't want another type that is somewhat struggling to be made worse.
@@CryoDagger No, it's fine sometimes people click off before the end or comment while the video is going, and I talk fast, so you might have missed it. I said: "This video is already too long, and that process made me realize that I want to rework some other weaker types like Grass, Bug, and Rock first."
To me, I would make Ice resist Dragon, Water, and (maybe) Fairy but in exchange dragon would now be super effective vs Electric (so as to give dragon type moves a reason to be used as a form of coverage as well as compensation) I would also make it so that Fighting is no longer super effective vs Ice, in no small part to allow steel to distinguish itself more from Fighting aside from how it deals with fairy (formerly it was redundant) Outside of the Ice type, I'd also make it so fairy no longer resists bug, and Change up poison's offensive matchups aside from fairy.
One interesting Mon that would change a lot with this imo is Hisuian Avalugg. It no longer has so many weaknesses, losing weakness to Rock, Ground, Water, can switch in on electric moves, but still keeps painful 4x Steel and Fighting weaknesses. But they both are mainly physical types, so MAYBE with its insane defensive bulk and Snow it can survive a non-stab coverage move with these types? Idk.
It can yeah. Max Def Hisui Avalugg guarentee survives +Speed Weavile’s Life Orb Low Kick (120BP) without Snow. Though I imagine Hisui wouldn’t go all out in def investment given it wants to do damage with that big attack stat.
Quite honestly I think ice is fine the way it is, yes it has no defensive value but it has insane offensive value, it’s a trade off and giving it more resistances is bordering on the edge of being too strong in a meta game
The problem I point out many times in the video is that Ice MOVES have good offensive value, but Ice POKÉMON do not. Everyone wants to run Ice Beam, Ice Punch, and Hidden Power Ice, right? Do you have to use an Ice type to do that? No, it's better to teach those moves to something else, like a Water type. Now what about all the defensive Ice types Game Freak pumps out? Do you want to use those defensively? Are you incentivized to use a defensive Ice-type? This is the specific issue I'm talking about. Slow, defensive Ice-types are part of Game Freaks vision for some reason. Everyone wants to use an Ice move, no one wants to BE an Ice type. For comparison, if Ice hits 4 things and is weak to 3 thing, then resisting 4 things isn't too crazy. 3 good types and one mid type resists Ice too (Fire, Steel, Water, Ice) Now look at Ground. Ground hits 5 things. It's the only thing to hit Electric hard, one of the rare things Steel doesn't resist and is weak to, hits Fire (a deceptively resistant type) and hits Poison (alright defensive type) and Rock (not the best defnsive type). The only things Ground can't hit are flying (mid), Grass and Bug (they suck). In exchange Ground only has 3 weaknesses (the same as what I propose for Ice). Ice is still just as boom or bust. But now you actually have to worry about defensive Ice types hitting back. I strongly encourage you to go through each type pairing with Ice and look at how many easily exploitable x2 and x4 weaknesses Ice still has with all the changes I propose. Then keep in mind how slow most of them are. They're still mid. The ones that were oneshotting your team were always going to one-shot before these changes. Bundle, Chien-pao and other offense Ice types were banned, and the Ice walls are rotting in bottom tiers. All that changes is that Ice walls make it to uu/ru, and who knows, maybe BL. But that's my prediction, let's talk about specific Ice-types that you think would be problematic in standard play, OU/UU.
@@CammyMeeleTea I feel like that’s more of a problem of how ice type Pokémon are designed not necessarily the type itself though, it’s like how you don’t really use bug types or normal types for defensive properties, or poison or grass offensive properties, the best Pokémon of those types play into the best properties of their respective types, the best ice types lean into their offensive capabilities, because it’s really strong, defensive ones always suck because they aren’t playing into what makes ice an amazing offensive typing, it’s more so game freak’s insistence on making slow defensive ice types
@@leftistdegeneratejs Then we agree. That's exactly what my two videos explain. I talked about why Ice is failing. Mainly the contradiction of Ice the type being designed as an offensive glass cannon, but Game Freak fetishizing slow, defensive Ice types. In the last video I cite how Steel's identity is to be defensive, and so most are slow and defensive, but it's nice that Steel can still get fast offensive Pokémon like Lucario. Bugs are fragile and fast, but we get Escavalier, Forretress, Bulky mega Scizor. (Notice how bugs resistances despite being a fragile thing is synergistic to other types). Grass has walls, fast support, fast offense and all roles have success. Amoongus, Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, Whimsicott, Bulu, Kartana, Shaymin. Variance is nice. Variety and diversity is good. If the Ice is meant to be a glass cannon and nothing else, I don't like that. If most are glass cannons but we get 5 viable tanks, cool. Some of the coolest and most notable Pokémon are the ones that don't follow the stereotype of their type. Even if every Ice type was fast and hit hard like Weavile and was successful, that would be boring. They'd be no different than Dragons. Water can be Bulky, can have swim swim sweepers, can have raindish or hydration. Has physical and special walls. Has CroCune. Has so many options. I want Ice to have variety like other types. Doesn't need to be perfectly equal variety. Just 2 good Ice walls. 3 good Ice bruisers. And so if 5/6ths of the Ice roster is gonna be tanks, I may as well fix the existing ones like Avalugg in Game Freak's Ice wall vision. I have a future video planned where I make Ice types that can thrive as Ice is now. But obviously doing Game Freak's job and making Ice types that do stuff without just giving broken stats takes time.
Another possibly good way to buff Ice types is to make them immune to burns. In exchange, all Fire types will be immune to freezing, thus possibly forcing the game developers to get rid of Magma Armor, as only Fire Pokémon have that ability, AFAIK. 11:25: So THAT'S what happened to the Rock Mushroom after Super Mario Galaxy 2... 11:55: "Donkey Kong trapped in a pyramid" (insert Kroc from DK64 saying "GET OUT!!!" here) Jump to 13:22 for ***JOHN CENA!!!*** (insert his theme here)
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READ ME:
It's okay to argue with me, I want you to give me all your takes, whether you love or hate these changes. Plus watch the whole video first, I thoroughly explain my points and give a recap at the end. Definitely helps to see the first video too.
I'm an Ace Attorney fan, so I strongly believe it's important for people to argue opposite sides to come to a better conclusion. For example, I used to be pro "Ice is weak to Rock."
Lastly, I'm definitely in the camp of testing out every suggestion and labbing things out. For example, I loved trying out Overwatch experimental reworks. They weren't in the real game, so I'm not sure why people were treating experiments and proposals like life or death situations.
As an IT Director/software engineer, some of the best solutions and my best successes came from turning my way of thinking around and trying wild things.
Also, y'all really love Mamoswine, huh? I do too. 130 Base Attack and Ice Shard + Earthquake + Stealth Rock is all you need.
Ice vs Water:
I've only played Final Fantasy IV, and there is no water element in the original version. There are spells that totally should be Water, and Water was introduced in the 3D version of Final Fantasy IV. But in the original version, Tidal Wave and Tsunami are non-elemental, while Flood is Ice elemental. The point is that, Ice and Water were the same in at least 1 game, so it counts.
As for Genshin, that is an error, never played it. When I was getting feedback on the script, someone suggested adding Genshin as an example of Water and Ice being the same element, and now they feel bad about letting me think only Cryo existed.
Regarding Electricity:
Regarding Ice's conductivity, I said something incorrect for the sake of brevity. I said something like "cold things are less conductive" which is inaccurate. Conductives like metals are the opposite, they are more conductive when cool. Ice as it's found in nature is not a conductor or superconductor. Semiconductors and insulators are what I was talking about.
I won't be oversimplifying to the level I did in the future, as I've misrepresented the logic that Ice conducts worse than Water because of matter state and temperature. Thank you for your understanding.
TL;DR:
Yes, super conductors are chilled for better conductivity, BUT Ice is not a superconductor. You would have to ADD heat to make Ice more conductive compared to Water.
atlas-scientific.com/blog/why-does-conductivity-increase-with-temperature-in-semiconductors/#:~:text=Electrical%20conductivity%20increases%20in%20semiconductors,%2C%20thus%2C%20increasing%20the%20conductivity.
pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/1957/tf/tf9575300687
I think the rock weakness should stay.
Part of Ice's identity is that it is fragile, but powerful, by hitting super effectively the "strongest" type in Dragon, and neutrally many other targets. Of course, 9 gens later, the types are all much more equal now, so the weaknesses really do pile up for ice, and I think all the resistances you proposed are good, but that's because they still keep it being a niche type with some specific advantages.
Resisting earthquake is super useful, and a good opportunity to switch in, and that alone massively improves its usefulness. But rock neutrality is harder to justify: you don't need to talk about salt, or glaciers, or whatever, just throw a rock at an ice sheet and see what happens. The real problem with ice being weak to rock is Stealth Rock, but that's because the move is too busted. They should have made it electric type or something like that, where it doesn't hit many things super effectively, instead of using the type with bad resistances and bad moves but great type effectiveness
Anyways great video!! Always love to see people analysing the pokemon mechanics, and trying some good ol' game design on it :p
This was my thought too, but more practically, if you throw a rock hard enough at an ice cube, that ice cube will break.
I liked you changes and i too get to the more resistences to balace ice, in my mind my diference was that instead of resist eletric i made it resist poison and on the same time i made poison be super effect on water. The poison would act more slow because of the cold or someting like that.
Regarding Ice's conductivity, I said something incorrect for the sake of brevity. I said something like "cold things are less conductive" which is inaccurate. Conductives like metals are the opposite, they are more conductive when cool. Semiconductors and insulators are what I was talking about.
I won't be oversimplifying to the level I did in the future, as I've misrepresented the logic that Ice conducts worse than Water because of matter state and temperature. Thank you for your understanding.
TL;DR:
Yes, super conductors are chilled for better conductivity, BUT Ice is not a superconductor. You would have to ADD heat to make Ice more conductive compared to Water.
atlas-scientific.com/blog/why-does-conductivity-increase-with-temperature-in-semiconductors/#:~:text=Electrical%20conductivity%20increases%20in%20semiconductors,%2C%20thus%2C%20increasing%20the%20conductivity.
pubs.rsc.org/en/content/articlelanding/1957/tf/tf9575300687
My Main reason against the rock argument is that rock type isnt that great aswell, so the given bone isnt enough imo
I reckon they should've carried over the frostbite condition from legends arceus considering that I feel like there should be a status condition that halves the special attack of a pokemon. You could therefore make a move called permafrost to give pokemon that status.
Yea the more i think about it, the more I like frostbite over freezing. Freezing something is just too broken and Sleep already exists that prevents pokemon from moving for a couple turns so frostbite i think just works better.
@@supersaiyaneevee1573 I don't think anyone likes freeze too.
@@supersaiyaneevee1573 Yea I didn’t like Legends as a game at all but frostbite is so much better then freeze. At least with something like sleep which also prevents u from moving it has a way to get around that in sleep talk (they do need to buff sleep talk so it can’t get rest tho cause that’s just annoying unless they already did that idk).
And with sleep you’ll guaranteed to wake up after 2-3 turns (2 with rest). Freeze could literally last forever which is so stupid. Yes theirs no way to guarantee freeze something like with sleep but getting frozen is just so annoyingly stressful especially after a few turns of it and even worse if it’s your heal bell mon. I remember when I was little and first getting frozen and was so confused on what it was and at the time I guess I didn’t think of using an item to unthaw (if I even had one). Instead I just kept trying to attack and if my Pokémon got low I healed it with a potion. After like 10 turns I immediately exited the game and reset the battle (I saved right before the battle). And was like if that crap happens again I’m done playing this. Luckily it didn’t happen again.
I like Frozen thematically. Bc it sounds more cool to be frozen then have a cold from a Frostbite.
But mechanically Frostbite would defenetly be superior and would be very appreciated to both give Ice types another neace and make another counter to sp attacker witch don't have as many counter as Physical Attackers have.
It should have been the sp burn long time ago. But if thet want to make a inbetween with the 2. They should make it like a sp burn without the damage. So if you have Frostbite you have like a 20/30% to be frozen. So it isent a complete replica of burn but special. It would make it different from burn and not completely ditching its previous effect. It just wouldn't take damage but have its sp attack dropped by 50% and have a 20/30% to Freeze every turn. That's just a idé though.
Having it as a special burn works fine with me. It would also make Frostlass more viable with Willow wisp and Frostbite. Will be a fun menace. I love Frostlass. Hopefully Frostbite will be implemented eventually. As I really enjoyed it in Legends Arceus and it would be a welcoming change to the Ice types😄
@Liam Skarhed so kinda mixing burn and paralysis together? But with a Sp Atk drop rather than a Phys Atk or Speed drop. And there being a 1/3 chance to be completely frozen like being paralyzed does. (Idr the fully paralyzed chances, 1/3 just as an example).
I honestly think that would work REALLY well! My only gripe is that it kinda makes paralysis feel less special but just a small little nitpick.
i think another nice change would be if they changed the frozen status, because it's too inconsistent to reliably use, even though it's really powerful
I think a guaranteed 3 turns, but with more counter-play could work. Maybe make the Magmarizer cure Freeze at the end of each turn when held, and do the same with the Electirizer and Sleep. This means that you can basically turn a Freeze and Sleep into Flinches at the cost of your item. Maybe buff a few abilities the same way (Flame Body is end of turn, Thick Fat, Ice Body, Slush Rush, and Snow Cloak are end of next turn, I'm sure there's a few others that could work too). Also just distribute some more thawing moves and add a couple that thaw the target but gain 20% extra damage (maybe just add that to some fighting moves or something)
(And may as well just make the Protector act as a P. Def Assault Vest while wear buffing some evolution items.)
Legends Arceus changed Freeze to Frostbite which acts like a Burn and reduces the afflicted Pokemon's Special Attack. Really wish they had that in Scarlet/Violet.
@@EinSilverRosethat it's not changing it, is removing it outright. Personally i'd just do what most sane games do and have contact moves fo extra damage and remove it.
You just taught me how Long Island was formed lol. Never knew the place I’m from was that cool
I would give Ice a resistance to Flying, Ground, and Ice.
Ground and ice are already weak to Ice, so it makes sense. Ghost because the Ghost type is currently broken offensively with only dark resisting it. That would give Ice a special role in resisting the type.
Personally, I think the Change to rock was a bit much. It DOES makes sense thematically I agree with you on that, but rock is already a pretty awkward type as is. If stealth rock didnt exist, this change would genuinely be unnecessary in my opinion. Rock is a solid offensive typing but the rock type itself is already a somewhat weak type defensively so rock usually comes into play in coverage moves and obviously stealth rocks. I get the idea behind it but I personally wouldnt have made that call.
On the other side, I love your idea for electric. I legit never thought of a possiblity like that to nerf boltbeam so that was fun to see.
I would keep Rock's supereffectiveness to Ice. With all the new resistances, no need for further buffs, specially a big one like Stealth Rock neutrality; and Rock doesn't need an offensive nerf. Since Ice will be more used defensively, Rock will get more value being a good answer to it.
I feel like Ice should resist Fairy. The Fae typically are not found in winter; only spring and summer when it's warm as many Fae have fragile, insectoid wings. So Ice resists Fairy as fairies do not like being around the cold, and Fairy needs some kind of doorstop because their weaknesses are from bad offensive types.
I agree with the ice and water concept . The same way freeze dry is super effective against water , chilling water/ scald should be super effective against ice types in the hypothetical scenario that ice did resist water .
Actually, a commenter said something similar so I made a different video about Scald acting like Freeze-Dry.
I agree but the problem is that freeze dry should have the condition to either burn or (me personally I think being frozen for an unpredictable amount of time even after switch in is stupid BUT…) frozen (like rest for 1-2 turns) The reason i say that is scald still to this day has no punish and is easily the most spammable move next to a choice specs Boomburst exploud. Even on resist getting a burn off on anything that either doenst have an ability status-negate or set up safeguard, you aren’t safe from spam
@@CammyMeeleTea it would be a good change now that scald is an exclusive move to volcanian
I think the resist each other should be ice/ground. In therms os physics, ground it good to retain heat from nature ( thata why's some animals live grounded in winter, and ground don't melt ice) and ABSOLUTELY ICE SHOULD damage eletric because bad conduct,
I like the idea of these two moves being designed specifically to turn the tables on each other
6:12 just a quick note, Genshin treat Hydro (water) and Cryo (ice) as different entities and are separate elements. Great video regardless!
Not only that, but Final Fantasy treats ice and water as seperate elements as well!
@@OG-Cyan I was actually going to comment this as well lol.
Ive always believed that Ice and Water should be resistant to one another, but have a very limited set of moves that are super effective to eachother (Freeze Dry, Scald, and physical variants of these)
Check my video on scald.
My personal changes:
- Ice now resists Water and Electric
- Snow gives Ice Types a 1.2x accuracy buff on all of their moves
- Under Snow, Ice Types will be cured from the Burn status effect at the end of each turn
- Frostbite is back, and now there's a Wil-O Wisp clone that induces Frostbite that is mostly exclusive to Ice Types
- More non-Ice Types get Hail related abilities, that way it's easier to build Snow teams with better synergies (think how historically the best Sun and Sand abusers have rarely been Fire or Rock Type)
- New Move: An Ice-Type Magma Storm clone that only Ice Types learn.
How does Magma Storm work?
@@leebulger7112it's like fire spin on steroids, signature move for Heatran
@@andrewzorpas234 I heard of the move but I wasn't sure how it worked.
It's just fire spin with the strength and accuracy of iron tail
Ice should resist Ground to balance Ice's defensiveness and Ground's offenses
Pokémon Cloud and Soil buffed the Ice-Type by making it resist water, reintroducing frostbite and adding a Frostbite Will-o-Wisp called “Cold Wave”. They also implemented Snow to further help them out.
Cold Wave is almost exclusively learned by Ice-Types. Snow, Aurora Veil and Cold Wave give defensive Ice-Types plenty of staying power. They also added some Ice-Types with abilities that further improve their staying power. Fur Coat, Paw Pads (Boots as an ability) and Mountaineer (gives immunity to Stealth Rock and Rock moves on switch-in)
They also buffed the Bug-Type by reversing its relationship with Fairy and giving it a immunity to confusion.
I really like that idea a lot. I've always thought the Fairy and Bug match up was so dumb. Bug's immunity to confusion would be so cool because Bugs can't get disoriented easily. Think of flies and their hyper perception.
Mountaineer is a cool ability, it's like that Create-A-Pokemon. I think it's called Syclant? It's an Ice/Bug type.
@@CammyMeeleTeaYeah, they took that exact ability and put it into the game on an Ice/Flying type called Colbird.
Colbird has high HP, Def SpA and Spe with low Atk and SpD. It has good boosting options and utility. I hear they might be buffing Mountaineer to block Rock moves even after switching in so Colbird would be immune to the EdgeQuake combo.
Paw Pads belongs to Tempdua, Alolan Ninetales and a new Ice-Type Lycanroc form. Tempdua is an Ice/Fire type that’s an absolutely insane offensive threat with base 137 speed and access to Triple Axel, Flare Blitz and Extreme Speed and more
@@CammyMeeleTea bugs confuse super easily, all you need as a light and they freak out
Good rework I guess, but I'm fine with water resisting ice. People always want ice to be good against water, but it really shouldn't. Maybe it should be neutral, nothing less. Water in liquid form is warmer than ice. Ice types could also suck defensively because it's molecules expanded, causing it to be a bigger target and a weaker one.
@@zacmayes2802 In Cl/So, Water and Ice resist each other
Pragmatically, I like all of these proposals, and I think they would improve the ice type and likely bring more balance to the types. That said, on the ice-rock relationship as it stands, I don't think it is without logic. Rather than relying on the salt idea, I think it has to do with the sort of "hardness scale" that pokemon built into the "solid material" types: rock is harder than ice and is thus super effective. Steel is harder than ice and rock, and is thus super effective. Fighting is super effective against all the material types, I guess because skilled martial artists could break these or all these materials are weaker than the fighting spirit, enough force will break anything, similar nonsense etc etc
Very detailed and well thought out strategy to salvage the Ice type from the recurring glass cannon meme they are stuck in. One thing I don't understand is the erasure of Hail as a chip damaging move. Snowscape serves as a buffering tool for the frailty of Ice types. Hail needs a comeback.
If they actually implemented my changes, I'd be cool with chip, but given how in the real game you need so much non-Ice support, I'm glad the chip is gone.
I think snow is a phenomenal change purely because you can still use ice types without having to nerf other pokemon. Sand still gets variety from rock ground and steel types, but ice is the only type to not take hail chip so if you have any non ice type pokemon your just making them worse on your hail team with only one set of goggles to go around
i never saw hail as useful and it only ever seemed to discourage from using non-ice-types on your team. this way, snow gives ice types a benefit while not hurting its teammates
The problem with hail its very difficult to build a team around it. Unlike sandstorm where you can justify making a team of mostly ground, rock, and steel types, nobody is going to build a team of ice types to make use of it. It ends up being more of a burden than a benefit.
I don't understand since sandstorm deals chip damage while ALSO boosting Rock Type's spdef. Maybe because Hail was too niche (only Ice types resist it compared to Rock, Steel and Ground)?
Finally somebody that understands that Water and Ice are similar with certain differences (also there's a good reason Water mons uses ice moves)
Still i think the Electric resistance will be good enough (since poison has the same amount of resistances until fairires came on)
Poison also has only 2 weaknesses, to psychic (not a common offensive threat anymore) and ground. It also has one of the best status for a bulky pokemon, with toxic.
I think a good rework is to not think of Ice like frozen water type, but more the concept of cold in general. With that rework in mind, a lot can change. Cold could sometimes be supereffective against fire types if you used moves like Blizzard, it would definitely be super effective against Bug, neutral to Water, resistant against electricity. The list goes on.
69th like
Making Ice resist electric makes opposite sense if you look at the physics.
Quick correction but Ice and Water (Cryo and Hydro) ARE two different elements in Genshin Impact. With Cryo being strong against Hydro.
I was coming to say this as well! On top of this, Cryo and Hydro have different reactions with different properties (Superconduct and Melt vs Electro-Charged and Vaporize), have a reaction between each other (Frozen), and Hydro even reacts with an element that Cryo doesn't (having Bloom with Dendro).
@@aeiouna Yeah - I think it works because Cryo isn't necessarily an ice equivalent, but a cold equivalent (at least in reactions if not moves), it's very cool
6:12 Genshin literally has Hydro and Cryo as separate elements ever since before Dendro
Heck Final fantasy does the same, Ice and Water pretty often end up being completely different
I don't play that game at all, I asked my friend who plays the game and he failed me completely, lol.
@@Castersvarog Yeah, I was on the Final Fantasy wiki and some games it's different elements and some games it's the same. Like Ice Storm in on game does Water and Ice damage. In some games, the party can only use Ice element moves, but enemies get water element moves.
@@CammyMeeleTea Bruh how did he do you like that, one of the first things you get introduced is the basic 4 elements
@@kaiky_3821 I wasn't even gonna bring up Genshin because I didn't play it past Amber.
I’ve been thinking about an Ice Type rework for a while and honestly, I agree with all the changes made in this video. Especially that regarding the Electric Type.
I really that believe changing the offensive profile of Electric Types is one of the best ways to balance the game. Ice and Rock could be buffed by becoming resistant to it while Steel could be nerfed by becoming vulnerable to it. Just by changing those three interactions, so many issues with in the type chart are resolved.
So many Gen 1 Rock types are part Ground, it's really easy to think Rock resists Electricity. Heavens forbid you grew up watching the anime like me. I was lied to. Agility isn't a Psychic type Quick Attack.
@@CammyMeeleTea yeah, I was surprised when I got older and realized Electricity was actually neutral to it. Becoming resistant really fits a ton of Rock Types thematically and competitively.
@@CammyMeeleTeaPikachu go for the horn!
@@leebulger7112 Good ol' ring target Rhydon. Absolute staple of the Gen 1 Meta...
@@CammyMeeleTea A psychic type priority attacking move does actually go kinda hard tho
To me I feel that Fighting should lose the super effective instead of Rock. If for nothing else Rock is already a type that is partial to half the game already & tossing a good rock could break ice, but anytime I see someone punch or kick ice it just works as well as you’d expect.
Have you seen a Martial Artist do it?
well thats why rock resists normal
I look forward to seeing your suggestions to buff the bug type. I hope we can spread the word to help bugs and ice in Pokémon.
Frosmoth subscribed.
I think But should resist Psychic and Dark.
@@leebulger7112 Maybe not Psychic, but I definetely agree it should resist Dark.
One thing I'd like them to do is make Bug neutral to Ghost or at least make one Bug type move that is super effective againt Ghost types. There are a lot of concepts mixed in the Ghost type in Pokemon, most of them being related to spirit possession on objects/spirit powers on living creatures, but there are also those Pokemon that are related to a dead/decaying corpse and who ir our world are excellent at decomposing organic matter? Exactly, bugs. So to avoid having some extremely specific interaction like Bug doing super effective damage against say Houndstone (which is one of said dead/decaying corpse mons I mentioned) or still doing resisted damage against something like a Mismagius (a more traditional Ghost type), I think it should be neutral to all or keep the Ghost resistance with at least one specific Bug move that is super effective against it, like there already is with Freeze-Dry and Water types or most recently Salt Cure's damage over time against Water and Steel types.
@@tezminator I said Psychic because Types on average are resisted by 4 other Types and just think there is a opening.
Electric resistance alone would be a good enough change, though the resistance to Water would be a cool addition as well. Making the type resist both Electric and Water might lead to the Ice-types completely outclassing the grass-type though, since it would pack similar resistances while being significantly better offensively and not weak to common moves like U-Turn. The other changes seem unnecessary.
Though at least Grass is one of the three types resisting or being immune to Ground moves (the others being Bug and Flying, which are weak to the Rock coverage they often carry)
Yea, I thought the same thing. The video could have ended at the electric resistance, and then maybe something else as an additional suggestion, but by the end of the video it kinda felt like something that would overhaul the whole meta.
The “last bit of rubbish that escapes the dust pan” is the best description of Long Island I’ve ever heard.
One type i think Ice could resist and make sense is Ghost. Ghosts are often associated with a chill in a place they're haunting, which Ice wouldn't be affected by. Also, Ghost could use the nerf.
I'm no science expert electric is the only believable new ice resistance. Water I don't know seeing ice cubes melt in my sparkling water. Make ice a lesser rock I guess. Add flying, normal and venom to its resume. Thing is ice kinda stands in between rock and steel as seen in the Regi trio. Regice is second in power to Registeel and Regirock at the bottom.
The idea behind Ice and Water resisting each other is like, putting ice in water just ends up with more water, and putting water on top of ice will just end up with more ice
The point behind water and ice mutually resisting each other is that neither water nor ice automatically beats out the other. Which one wins depends on quantity. Dumping some ice cubes into a lake will melt the ice cubes, but pour a cup of water onto a glacier will freeze the water. We can assume that the pokemon itself counts as "more quantity" than the attack, so using an ice move on a water type is equivalent to the former but using a water move on an ice type is equivalent to the latter.
You gotta get to the Water section where I explain this scenario exactly.
Ice resisting flying, dragon, ground, and grass would be massive. The weakness could stay, but having no resistance is too much in a switch heavy game.
As you mentioned buffing ice's offense would prolly not be a good buff, but simmilarly to your proposed water resist (that I completely agree with btw) I think it would make a lot of thematic sense to have ice and fire be super effective against each other, because again they are two sides of the same coin. As you mentioned cold is the absense of heat energy and what "overpowers" the other is pretty much down to volume.
That's a good point. I've seen people throw around the idea of Ice and Fire interactions. In Pokémon, Fire is both heat and literal Fire (sometimes magma even though it's molten rock). Water smothers Fire, but not necessarily heat. Ice can smother heat, but not necessarily the Fire.
It could really go either way. It's funny how Fire has so many resistances.
I feel like if you do make ice and water resistant to each other then water needs to have a move how's only effect is to be super effective against ice. Considering that ice already have a move that does the same with Freeze dry.
Check my most recent video about Scald's rework.
6:13 ???? I’m not sure about the other 3 games here but Cryo and Hydro have been different elements since Genshin launched
Minor inaccuracy aside, I really like these changes. They’re relatively minor and take the competitive scene into mind better than many other type reworks have. When most people attempt to rebalance the type chart they only keep the type interactions in mind, when there are other things like status, weather, or non type-based move immunities (Prankster, Spore moves, etc) that effect a type’s strength. Or even just little things like how rock types almost always have coverage for flying types in rock type moves so they aren’t in dire need of a buff to compensate for the immunity.
I also really like Crabominable getting 5 weaknesses and 5 resistances, its so goofy which fits the energy of the pokemon perfectly
Ice is one of my favourite types, so its nice to see it done justice (My other favourites are rock and poison, so I am forced to live in disappointment more often than not)
its also funny when u actually read cryowhopper flower desc n find out the "mist" it sprays isnt actually mist but pure leyline particles lol . I think ice is more of a cold/ low temp type then actual type.Kinda like in re zero where emilia has fire affinity but is named ice witch bcuz she manipulates temp off air around her to create ice. Compared to genshin where fire characters either use fire themself or make stuff out off it like pheonix , chains , shields etc
Let it resist Water Types
Let Hail/Snow heal all Ice types in play for 1/16th of it’s max hp at the end of each turn.
Water & Ice resisting each other seems fair.
I feel like ice should resist fairy since fimble winter in Ragnarok weakens magic. Fairy also bind gaining too much recanition in competitive.
Imagine if Bug and Grass resisted Faury because Fairies don't want to hurt nature, or something. And for balance.
I mean I feel like ice being immune to fairy would be better but sure
Jack Frost is also the enemy of the fairys in fairyland and in other stories is the king of fairys
@@windwaker0rules Jack Frost is an adorable little cutie-ho, and I always add him to my team in Shin Megami Tensei, hee-HO.
@@exaunitive4948 Nah an infinity would be too much
I also think the resistance to Electric is the only believable change proposed. Still not convinced about resisting Water.. water has a higher heat capacity if I'm not mistaken, so I don't think that thematically it would make sense for it to be resisted by Ice. I believe Ice, being one of the "hard" types, should be resistant to Normal, which is also resisted by the other "hard" types (which are all also weak to Fighting).
Normal wouldn't be nerfed much by this chance, as most Normal Pokemon can use a plethora of attack types, but would buff Ice given how many Pokemon can use Normal-type attacks. Would it fix everything in the type chart? No, but I think it would make more sense thematically than resisting Ground or being neutral to Rock.
I see, I can see what you're saying about Normal. It makes thematic sense, but from an overall balance sense, resisting Normal still leave Ice outclassed by Steel.
Ice vs Water is mentioned, it's all about total volume.
I’d honestly make Ice completely immune to Electric
And another thing worth noting that if Ice just gets it's 3 ideal resistances, Abomasnow would have 3 4x resistances to Electric, Water, and Ground (thanks to it's /Grass typing)
Yeah, there's a lot of interesting double resists!
The ideal Kyogre counter :)
Love how you brought up how most other games or even monster collectors just streamline their elemental system by grouping Ice and Water under one element. Even the Pokemon TCG does this. Less need to make all these complex interactions that lead to balance issues. Good on ya for putting in the effort to explain a better way to go about this.
I'm glad, that's exactly what I was going for. My balance philosophy is similar for other games too. I want every character to at least have 1 thing it can do.
@@CammyMeeleTea One thing to note is out of the many monster collectors I have played, Yo-Kai Watch is the only other game I know of that separates Water and Ice but the elemental matchup system is super streamlined so there are a HUGE number of Ice monsters that are viable in the competitive format.
Ice and water are separate elements in genshin, small nitpick sorry
@@nightcorelucario2218 As well as it's on FF, Shiva and Leviathan anyone?
The rock and fighting weakness never made any sense to me. Especially fighting. I guess you can chip ice with a rock, but I’m sure as heck not going to punch a block of ice.
Regarding ice's weakness, im more in favor of eliminating its weakness to steel since many stories, fictional or otherwise, often show steel tools failing in in harsh cold and thus a specialized tool from a specialized metal combination is needed to withstand the cold. Granted, in my hypothetical, steel still resists ice, its just not super effective.
I get the logic for rock weakness being gone, but rock struggles the same issues ice types have of many weaknesses but a lot of super effective hits.
Moreover, steel is already the best type in the game, losing super effective damage against a type shouldn't harm them as badly as rock losing that. Stab, as little as it matters in this context, should be important to consider because steel strengths isnt in its offenses but that is definitely the case for rock due to 5 weakness but 4 super effective hits.
I wish Rock had resistances that matter other than Fire.
@CammyMeeleTea same, but as it stands there isn't a lot we can do to buff rock directly, we need to buff the Stab of poison and bug, thus giving more value to rock's resistance to those types.
Like a lot of us, fairy shouldn't resistant bug, yet it does. Not sure who else shares this sentiment, but it should alao be weak to bug, purely for balance and give more incentive to use bug moves other than uturn.
There's also ghosts and fighting resistance to bug which I don't understand either so in this case, I feel you can either choose one or both.
I suspect the reason why bug is resisted by 7 types is to emulate its inherent weakness due to small size, but I think game freak went overboard and bug is the type they use when they want to give a type resistance when they can't think of one. I feel these nerfs would good because all three types are already good and need something to dial them down while also give the types still resistant to bug more value defensively.
As for poison, I think it's pretty good as is, but giving water a weakness to poison with water pollution as the explanation. In relation to rock, all those water rock types get some more mileage out of the dual typing by being some of the few water types to not be hurt by poison.
I'm kind of late to comment so not sure if you will see this, but I think that both thematically and mechanically, it would make sense for ice to resist fairy.
In a lot of fiction/folklore, fairies are tied to nature, plant life, life force, etc. Ice is, in a sense, the lack of that life force. Think White Walkers vs Children of the forest in game of thrones, or the Faewild in D&D. In that sense, thematically it tracks.
As for mechanically, fairy type moves are already extremely spamable (play rough and moonblast) so another resist would be great. The best part is that all 3 current fairy resists are weak to ground, so Ice would have a niche as a fairy resist that isn't ground weak.
just make it resist water and dragon that's it
Great video, but wanted to point out in Genshin Impact, the ice and water element are in fact completely different elements. They are called Cryo and Hydro specifically.
Yeah, I don't play Genshin. I just never got an ad for a Hydro hero.
Again, I really like your takes. I agree with the whole video tbh, I'm sad Rock loses something, but since you plan on reworking it I'm fine with it, and can't wait for your next video.
I hope other people will sub as well and that you'll have fun making nee interesting videos!
a lot of the resistances presented here are ones that it would now share with the grass type, meaning it might be competing with that type in terms of team roles. the two types overall are different enough that it probably wouldn't be a problem in most examples, but it means some defensive ice types might still not be able to stand out as much depending on their niche
still, it makes thinking about pokemon like abomasnow more fun, so i'd be happy at least lol
I always felt like Ice should just be immune to itself. You can fight fire with fire or wash away water, but freezing an ice cube does nothing.
What about smashing ice into each other?
I like the idea to make ICE more defensively viable, not too fond of changing GROUND and ROCK in relation to ICE but I dig the other two that you suggested. Also, thoughts on Aurora Veil in the Snow since the new weather boosts physical defense of ICE?
I think it's really interesting. Aurora Veil is more consistent on the rare Snow Warning Pokémon. And at the moment the best Snow setter is Chilly Reception Slowking.
I'm curious to see what a good manual Hail/Snow setter looks like. I feel like I've really only seen Rain and Sun manually set for the damage boosts.
My guy why are you capitalizing the types. Are you a Game Boy? Are you BMO from Adventure Time? What is this?
I like you changes to the type, it feels very similar to grass resitences but with diferent set of weakness (still feel worst than grass in the defensive department but way stronger in the offensive one)
Ice the red headed stepchild of Game freak. Ice type is beautiful and should resist Poison, Bug, Grass, Normal and Flying. What damage could insects toxins normal hits or wind blowing do to solid ice or fresh pliable snow? Fighting is a cringe weakness but if Steel and Rock break by fisticuffs so be it. It doesn't help that there are so few Ice Pokémon and the regional forms as repaints are insult to injury.
Why do people keep adding Bug and Grass to lists of resistances for any type. I see this all the time but does anyone know Bug and Grass are the most resisted types in the game? Almost half the types in the game resist Bug and Grass.
Bug has been pretty bad for a while now, but Grass is mostly carried by Pokémon with amazing movepools. We shouldn’t be tearing down weaker types to try to build up other weaker ones.
Bug added as Ice resistance is logical. You can't have solid types like Rock and Steel resist Bug and not extra hard Ice. The Bug type has been powered up generation after generation since so much so bugs have become a menace in the games (Infestation, First Impression, U-turn, X scissor, Pounce, Bug Buzz, Leech Life, Bug Bite, Megahorn, Pollen Puff, Quiver Dance).
Genshin Impact treats Water and Ice as different elements.
To buff the Bug type, I'd drop its weakness to Flying type. This was originally because most Flying types were birds and birds eat bugs, but since then Flying types have become a lot more diverse and the match up no longer makes much sense. I'd also make it so Flying, Fairy and Ghost no longer resist Bug. Flying for the reason stated above, and Fairy and Ghost because it doesn't make much thematic sense. Why does Ghost resist Bug? If it's because Ghosts are incorporeal then shouldn't it resist Rock and Steel as well? And Fairy for balance reasons because Fairy is uber strong.
I would keep electric neutral v ice, make rock neutral v ice, but then rock resist electric. Then I would make fire and ice x2 against each other. I would have ice resist flying, bug, and water. Bug would become neutral against poison, ghost, flying and fire, but 1/2 against ice and rock. Bug would now resist psychic.
This makes bug more offensive, but worse against the 'hard' types ice, rock, and steel.
Ice becomes more defensive, almost the same as in the video, but now hot and cold cancel out.
Rock gains two new resistances, making it more defensive, and loses its effectiveness against ice.
As some people are saying, they should have kept the frostbite condition. I think it would work if you could only freeze a pokemon that was already frost bitten. Same with sleep and drowsiness.
Edit:
More radically, I would remove levitate and flying ground immunity. Instead each species can be either aerial or non aerial. This way many bug types with wings either gain a new second type, or gain ground immunity.
Love how you explained the relationship between Ice and Water. If any two types should be consolidated into one, it should be Ground and Rock (Earth type?), not Water and Ice since they are much more distinct from one another.
Finally, someone who gets how the interaction between ice and water should work. I agree with this reasoning completely.
I like that you included electric type in resistances. Another thing why ice could resist electric type is that ice does not conduct electricity in any form. Ice cannot carry electricity because it lacks mobile ions and electrons. Which... makes me question why this interaction is not present in the first place.
Ice resisting ground may have the weakest arguments out of these three, but it's still valid.
Now, while I like rock change, I'm not sure if that's a good idea. I mean, the reasoning sounds fine. However, the above buffs are massive. Ground, water and electric are important types in competitive for a good reason. Now by removing rock type weakness, ice type could be a bit too strong.
Oh, and one more funny thing: with these changes, we also give fire, steel and fighting types a massive buff. When we remove one weakness, other weaknesses are gaining more importance. Not to mention, by nerfing electric, ground and water, they gained another bit of importance as ice killers. Funny how that works, huh? In particular, that makes fire type more important than it already is. Fire type is already a strong, common type in competitive, so it doesn't need help. Steel deserves only nerfs, it's absurd how strong it is. Only fighting getting better is fine. It was one of the best types in generation 5. But when fairy arrived, it became just okay.
...
By the way. Why is steel type supereffective against ice type, again? Yes, we do use various metals to destroy ice and such, but steel and many other metals grow more and more brittle as temperature decreases. In fact, it's not very difficult to make iron break in cold temperatures. Now imagine what could happen to pokemon that is literally metal.
I personally think ice should not resist ground, it already hits it with super effective which does make sense, but resisting it doesn't have any logic reasoning.
Bug and grass should be not very effective as most insects and plants have a hard time surviving in cold places, this would give Pokemons like abomasnow a new chance to shine.
Ice resisting Electric is pretty nice and does make sense, it would help out a lot the combination of water ice typying.
And rock should remain super effective on ice and also should remain neutral defense on ice, rock is in most cases way harder than ice, I can keep throwing one on ice and the rock will not break, now imagine I'm a rock type, I can keep doing it forever.
Love the physics but iirc it's actually the opposite --- lower temperatures make substances conduct more electricity aka lower the resistance aka they'd be better conductors. And since Pokemon logic says that Water conducts Electricity so it's weak to it, it'd make it so Ice is even weaker no?
In regards to Bug, I stand by my view that defensively it’s fine. It’s real problem is that it can’t hit anything very well because 7 types resist it and the types it does hit have types that do that better than bugs. In a sense, it has the opposite problem to Ice.
I 100% agree that at minimum Bug should be neutral to fairy.
You know cold makes better conductors, right? There's a reason super conductors need cryogenics.
My view on rock and ice interaction mainly had to do with hardness vs thin layer of ice. Which is why the logic appears to be Fighting > Steel > Rock > Ice in terms of “solid being able to break less solid”.
Happy I found a kindred spirit who loves the Ice type. Always felt they hold a regal air. After Gen 1 developers sought to nerf them and succeeded.
Honestly Water and Ice are better to resist each other for the reasons mentioned.
Electric also to be resisted by Ice in order to highlight the molecular difference between Ice and Water. This way gamers will stop viewing Ice as a Water type derivative and more something of its own league.
Other good resistances are Normal, Poison, Flying and Dragon.
Normal is the type least affected by such change given it damages all types equally with the exception of Steel and Rock. Ice added creates inconsequential shift in the chart.
Same with Poison which is resisted by Rock, Bug, Ghost and Ground. Poison is extra bulky and lethal with corrosion and toxic spikes therefore it doesn't feel threatened by another resistance like Ice.
Flying also has the potential to deal minimal damage to Ice because violent wind currents tend to be cool so Ice isn't phased. Quite the opposite Ice is strengthened by winds to retain its low temperature and solid form.
Dragon could be ineffective on grounds that its typing hates low temperatures making dragons go into dormancy losing their power to deal effective hits on Ice.
The reason fighting is strong against ice is a direct result of Daniel Larusso breaking those ice slates in karate kid 2 and I refuse to hear any arguments to the contrary lmao.
I watched this video awhile ago and I really loved the changes you suggested,- so much so that I wanted to implement them in a fan game project I started working on. But upon looking the changes over I realized something very unfortunate.
There is one other type in the game that resists water, ground and electric - the grass type. The only differences in their defensive profiles would be their resistances to themselves (grass resists grass - ice resists ice) which arguably gives the ice type the defensive edge on grass- even considering grass's immunity to spore and powder moves. The final nail in the coffin is that grass's offensive coverage PALES in comparison to Ice's coverage- it is no contest. I will say that grass type has a lot of unique moves to tech in like the myriad of status moves and healing moves, but I don't think that distinguishes the grass type enough from the ice type.
With that I concluded that while your changes are a great approach to buffing the ice type, it would be to the detriment of an already struggling type with 5 weaknesses and 7 types resisting it offensively. I am not saying all of this to bash on you,- I hope I'm not coming off as rude. But from my perspective this could completely kill the viability of the grass type competitively.
It's not at all rude. Grass has offensive and defensive issues. Bug has offensive issues. And Rock has defensive issues.
The series was first designed mostly with single player and trading in mind. Rocks were the early game tanky enemies that were meant to be difficult until you got "magic" like in other RPGs, but they've been a defensive joke since Steel existed. Bug was the early game power house "class" and now it can't hit anything. Grass was also an early game and specialist class, but also can't hit stuff and is weak to a lot.
When you look at how old Pokémon is, and how things were designed compared to other RPGs, you'll see the similarity. They've gradually started designing a lot of Pokémon much more differently than how they acted in the early games, and so a lot of these typing roles have become obsolete, especially if it limits their Pokémon design.
I haven't gotten to Grass yet. But off the top of my head there are a few ways I'd change Grass. It's hard to justify taking away weaknesses or hitting more things because it's one of those types that conceptually loses to so much. Of the weaknesses you can take away, you nerf bad types. So it's one of those types you have to rearrange at the same time as other types. There is opportunity for Grass to resist Fairy, (part of why I didn't want to give the Fairy resist to Ice). Taking the Fairy's resistance to Bug and turning that into Bug resisting Fairy.
Or even some wild experiments like Poison and Grass being neutral because of all the Poison plants. Poison being super effective on Flyin or Water because of pollution, and other tests.
Absolutely, keep testing out stuff in mods! I have 0 ability to mod without a guide, so I'm pleased that you were able to test it out. It doesnt bother me to be wrong, or need to keep working on an idea. It's fun to try things until it works. That's how it works in my real job.
I'm an IT Director (to put it simply to avoid doxxing myself) and part of that is Engineering solutions for my organization. They'll come to me with a problem, a goal, or even advice and then I see what kinds of programs or policies we can add to adjust things. Sometimes I look at systems they work with, try to improve them, and some changes they totally hate, so I improve it again. I don't have a degree or any certifications by the way. I got into IT because i was proposing solutions to a system they had that could be more efficient and consistent. The IT there liked my ideas and plans. I switched departments and shot my way up in just 3 years because I'm willing to try, learn, and try again so fast, that it doesn't matter how much I failed.
So the cycle of ideation and implementation is supposed to be like this. It's nice to get it right first try, but it's not always that clean.
That freedom to propose something and fail also extends to commenters on this channel. Sometimes people have the seed of a good idea, and just don't know what to do with it.
Feedback, especially raw testing like that, is completely welcome. I'm actually learning to code in my free time because I ultimately want to be able to implement changes/mods to other games, or even help work on a game.
Keep up what you're doing too. That's a great skill and the world really needs more programmers. Even if you're just into modding, there's tons of RUclipsrs and Streamers who just want someone else to implement the silly mods they come up with.
Thanks again though, I now know what else to consider if I eventually get to a Grass rework. And that really helps because my Stealth Rock video is off schedule because of the recent Pokémon HOME changes.
@@CammyMeeleTea Wow! I didn't expect such a detailed and thoughtful reply! I'm really stoked! If I'm being honest I'm pretty new to coding myself and I'm only on my second Pokemon Essentials fan game project. I am making my current project into an 18 gym leader game (one for each type) so I wanted to look at many ways to make every type shine. Beyond just experimenting with type matchups I have also looked at a battlefield system that effects types, moves and abilities on battlefield by battlefield basis. (If you've heard of Pokemon Reborn, Rejuvenation, and/or Desolation then its directly inspired from those games.)
I have settled on making fairy weak to bug and bug resist fairy. Also bug type pokemon being immune to confusion. (thanks to 9Destra's comment on your video)
With the ice type I will have it resist water for now. But, I'm willing to change those for a long while now,- I'm pretty early into development. Who knows? Maybe I'll include even more of your type changes ideas :)
I appreciate your story too, I'm fired up after hearing it! I'll look forward to your future videos! Thank you!
@@DuelingSteel The battlefield thing sounds cool, it's a lot like how in the Pokémon anime there were "unofficial" fields for different Pokémon types.
A gym for each type also sounds cool. It's why I liked that Scarlet and Violet had a gym, titan, or base for each type.
I really like the idea of an electric resistance since the unique ability to resist bolt-beam is one hell of a useful niche. However, I'm not quite so sold on the other changes. Maybe an additional resistance would be nice, but I feel like changing the interaction with 4 types is a major over-correction.
You’re making the rock thing much more complex than it is. Ice is brittle and weak. What happens when you chuck a rock at ice? It breaks. It’s literally that simple, and is seen literally all the time.
I’d argue it makes much more sense logically and gameplay wise to remove the steel weakness
Please explain your reasoning for Steel being weak to Ice.
After all, Ice is brittle and weak. What happens when you chuck Steel at Ice? It breaks. It's literally that simple, and is seen literally all the time.
Imagine iron bundle and chien pao with this buffs 💀
Fire and Ice should be super effective against the other . Given most r extrime types . Also make ice resist ghost and dark types and so should those twos as well .
Well, you know what I said last video.
But, Ice resisting: Dragon, Fairy, Psychic, Ice, Flying & remove the Rock weakness in exchange for also resisting fairy and beating Ghost
could always go the Gen 1/Final Fantasy route and make Ice super effective on Fire again.
{poor, Charizard, Ho-oh, Moltres, Magcargo, Camerupt and Groudon}
How about a Frosty/Frigid Terrain and let that take care of some of the more technical suggestions/changes
{eg - swapping the Flying resist for a Water resist; and making Ice resist Rock, Ground, Grass, Bug, Electric,
Fighting ???} {Increase frostbite chance by x%}
Ice was never Super effective against fire like a lot of RPGS only Neutral.
Fighting is strong against ice because of the second karate kid movie
Genshin impact says ice and water are the same element??? Huh???
Dude, you’re completely wrong about cold objects being worse conductors for electricity. The less heat is present in an object, the BETTER it is as a conductor. That’s how semi-conductors work. It’s also why you want to keep a CPU as cold as possible.
A CPU isn't made of Ice, it's about frozen water.
Personally, in my own 3DS hacks, I change the type chart to make Ice resist Water, Grass and Normal (and to bring back Steel's resistances to Ghost and Dark, for that matter).
Then I buff each Ice-type Pokemon individually, like giving Weavile Technician, or increasing Cloyster's base HP or making Glaceon faster, making Beartic Ice/Fighting, and the like.
Back asswards on the heat/conductivity thing. Colder materials conduct better because the atoms are closer together.
Ice, as in frozen water, what the video is about, conducts electricity worse.
The fact that they took away frostbite in sv really sucks.
I really wish Frostbite was still a thing.
*IF ONLY GAME "FREAK" IS LISTENING*
Superconductors used with liquid nitrogen to transfer electricity Better:
Frozen water not being made out of metal:
I loved this video but it sounds like you’re chewing pop rocks
I was.
Genshin was a mistake hydro (water) and cryo (ice) are diferent elements
Genshin definitely was a mistake.
very cool video! love the ideas and presentation. I disagree with ice resisting ground. everything else is perfect 👌
I always thought the same, Ice and Water should resist each other, and the moves like Freeze dry being super effective against water and Scald super effective to Ice, that way they both have a move to counter each other, also buffing Freeze dry to 80, so is the same as Scald
Check my video about Scald.
This was better than other videos I've seen regarding ice type.
Thanks. Wanted to make them viable, not broken. Amd boy have they still got a lot of weaknesses.
I think Ice also should hit Steel type hard, as being exposed to low temperatures can break strong metals (like what happened to the Titanic). It would be interesting to see two types actually hit each other hard...
3:50 aren’t super conductors insanely cold to optimize conduction? I’m not a physics expert but I’m pretty sure heat energy gets in the way of electrical conduction
Super conductors conduct electricity, and because they conduct well, they heat up more, and risk denaturing, and becoming less conductive.
Frozen water specifically, isn't a conductor or a super conductor.
An Ice-Steel type should actually get bodied by Electricity for that reason. 😆
Yeah -- good science but they got it backwards 😢
Unrelated, but I've always felt like Normal needed to resist one type. It has an immunity to ghost, but that's kind of it. I'd make Normal resist dark in order to make up steel (thankfully) losing a dark resist. Also, Normal was actually planned to be good against the dark type in the gen 2 spaceworld 97 demo.
Just an fyi but fairy's dark resist is the one that makes up the loss of steel's dark resist, adding that would be an increase in dark resists.
@@satoutakamachi7186 I know. I just wanted more types to resist dark and ghost since they're kinda overpowered rn.
In genshin ice and water are seperate, minor mistake
Pinned comment.
Where I thought you were going with the ice and water type interaction was that they should be weak to each other like adding more water melts the ice, and adding more ice power freezes the water.
Ice really doesn't need another weakness tbf.
I don't agree with the ice-rock mutual neutrality:
You smash a pebble and an ice cube of similar size together, the ice cube shatters. You throw a boulder at a glacier and it's gonna leave a dent. But then glaciers will tore through whole continents overtime. The bit about glaciers tearing through land... That's more of an argument for ground, not rock. But even if we apply it to rock, if anything that sounds like the two types should be mutually super-effective, not neutral.
Also, you refused to give ice a flying res because flying was already a balanced type. But... Electric is a fair amount worse than flying, is it not? In raw numbers it seems balanced, but the problem is that the one type with an electric immunity happens to also be one of the best and most common types in the game in ground. It doesn't help that everything and their mother also carries earthquake coverage, so electric isn't that great defensively either.
Flying doesn't have to deal with immunities. Steel is very common like ground, but it's not necessarily a hard counter to flying.
There's also the moveset to keep in mind: Flying's best offensive moves are Hurricane and Brave Bird. Electric's are Thunder, which is very comparable to Hurricane, and Wild Charge which sucks. Most flying types also get near-exclusive access to Roost and Tailwind, a priviledge unmatched by electrics since their only relevant status move in t-wave has a wider distribution.
The only thing you could argue in favor of electric is the stealth rocks neutrality, but then again flying has an immunity to spikes and t-spikes to compensate. Considering the pokemon that have been good and relevant historically even in singles, I think flying is the clear winner.
Lastly, I would limit ice to only two extra resistances. It was clearly created as a glass-cannon type and I'd rather conserve _some_ of that spirit. So I'd either give it water+ground or water+flying resistances.
The heat of fusion is useful for determining the amount of energy transfer required to freeze water or to melt ice. Most Pokémon battles are thematically very dynamic, so we should consider more than masses and hydrostatic systems.
As a liquid, water can undergo deformation easily. I can stir one liter of water or transfer it to a different container, and it'll still be liquid water. I can restore it to its previous shape by returning it to its previous container. If I have a one kilogram cube of ice, I can smash it and it'll still be one kilogram of ice, but I can't restore it to its previous shape.
A small volume of flowing cold water can melt ice easily via convection. It can even crack the ice via thermal shock. Water doesn't need to rely on sheer mass to disrupt the structural integrity of a mass of ice, but ice needs enough mass to absorb energy from water in order to freeze it.
Ice should absolutely not resist Water.
I can see the argument for Rock being super-effective against Ice, because like with Fighting and Steel, "Hard thing smash brittle thing!" I like the idea of making Ice super-effective against Rock because freeze-thaw cycles are good at cracking rocks, as illustrated by your potholes example. You're right that making such a change would just nerf Rock even harder, so I wouldn't exactly be cheering for that.
My choices for new resistances are Electric and Ground. The electrical properties of ice depend on the crystal structure. I'd be happy with hand-waving that one to make Ice resist Electric. Making Ice resist Ground also sounds fair since throwing dirt at ice doesn't really do anything to it. Making Ice resist Flying would be nice, but I don't have any thematic justifications for that proposal.
Hot take: Make Ice normally-effective against Fire like it was in Gen I, since the ice will melt and turn into water.
I'm looking forward to your future videos on buffing Grass, Bug, and Rock! I think it would be cool if Bug were super-effective against Ground. A lot of insects burrow in the ground. Ants are probably the best example.
In my ROM hack, Ice resists Ground Flying and Dragon (dragon is huge since dragon moves are very strong in the hack now and it allows ice types to check them even better) but I’ve never thought about electric before. I don’t mind it. I’m indifferent to ice resisting water though. I agree about bug and grass not needing the nerf. Speaking of bug, bug is now neutral on fairy ghost and fighting in my hack and bug types in general are massively buffed with much better stats very powerful buffed moves including new ones and a massively distributed first impression as well, bug deserves it. Another one of the stinkier types is buffed indirectly with black sludge healing double but that would be absurd in a competitive sense- this is a hack though so it’s strictly in game and makes poison types amazing defensive mons moreso than they already were. Rock is indirectly buffed from all the incredible new move buffs they’ve gotten and the fact that sand stream is much more widely distributed and they all get a move called Sedimend for the most part which is a reskinned Shore Up. Tons of other crappy types got huge buffs so it’s a fun time
Psychic could use one more resist and Normal should gain a resist and a super-effective. While thematically I can imagine Normal being this to Fairy (a Normal being be unaware of magic) it’s hard to imagine this for Psychic. Maybe Psychic resists Poison. Rock and Ground not resisting themselves is weird but it may be a good thematic difference with Dragon and Ghost be super-effective against themselves. If I want to make the type chart, more “normal” then Rock and Ground should resist themselves. Bug should resist Ground. I used to think that either Grass and Bug (leaning more to Bug) should resist and be super-effective against Fairy, but only if Normal doesn’t.
I would remove STEEL from being super effective against ICE
STEEL is already the best type in the entire game
Maybe make Dragon super-effective against Electric so at least one type is hit super-effectively for Dragon. Thematically? Dunno, maybe Dragons harness “pure energy” and so know how to channel electricity.
Okay those rock vs ice arguments all make way more sense than the one I thought about, which is just. If you throw a rock at ice (like a frozen lake) the ice breaks but the rock doesnt lol that is probably the dumbest explanation compared to all the other actual ones
Exactly. Because the normal trait of a rock isn't being thrown. In nature, rocks don't fly around at high speed on their own.
So if we used that logic, Steel should be super effective on more. Because of a certain type of metal projectile that is very super effective on living things.
@@CammyMeeleTea yeah lol i just think it's funny how people actually have some slightly logical explanations for it and then we have mine which is just throw a rock at ice xD
@@Bonkpunktexe No, it's fine look at the other comments, you're not alone. It doesn't make you dumb or anything.
It's just something that wasn't worth thinking about until now.
For example, I felt stupid because I know nothing about weddings despite the fact that I'm going to be getting married. But it's not really my fault, school doesn't teach it, and a lot of men aren't socialized to talk about or read about wedding stuff. Wedding planning is a skill and a passion that is learned like cooking, weightlifting, or playing an instrument. We can't know everything, so it's fine to have a bad argument about something.
It's not like you or study rocks and glaciers for work.
Dope vid
Some ideas for ice pokemon. A fire/ice pokemon with an ability called Heatpump, makes the Pokemon immune to ice and fire moves and raises SpAtk when hit by them. An ability or hold item called Shatterproof (Ice), removes their weakness to steel rock and fighting. Or an ability called Absolute Zero that makes it immune to ice and fire moves and causes opponent to lose 1/8th HP or 30% to freeze on contact.
Sidenote, they should add a move called hypothermia, a damaging move that may cause sleep (30%)
I've always said that there's definitely a case for Ice losing its Rock weakness. Living in Canada, I can tell you that there's a point where ice cannot be broken by just throwing a rock at it and, if anything, ice ACTIVELY destroys rock! So many buildings here end up suffering severe structural damage because water got inside of cracks or gaps in the foundation and frozen, pushing the concrete apart, cracking it, and ultimately making it crumble.
making ice resist electric, nerfs electric alot because there is a good bit of ice types that are also water types and removing the most reliable method of dealing with them makes water stronger and electric weaker. dealing with lapras or cloyster who is only weak to rock and fighting sounds abysmal. a much more reasonable thing to do is to make ice resist water, like you mentioned. ice should also resist fairy for gameplay balance. its a good type to resis to give it a better defensive profile. while rock might make more sense to remove as a weakness, it nerfs rock alot to lose one of the few good types its good against. it would only be strong to flying and fire at that point. rock is already very mid defensively, taking away its offensive profile is just going to hurt rock more than help ice. fighting is obviously the better choice because fighting is already great agaisnt 4 other types. it doesnt need to have ice as well.
I don't fully agree with rock no longer 2X to ice change since it chips away the one thing that rocks have going for it and that's being a solid offensive type. if anything, which is something I still feel they need to rework a bit, is stealth rock. other than that, Definitely agree with the changes; especially with making water and ice not very effective to each other. One buff that's been on my mind for ice type is to improve hail even further by making it that non-ice types other than fire would have their speed drop by one or two stages when it's active. thematically, it would make sense since you tend to move slower in colder climate if you're body is not used to it.
The Rock vs Ice argument is a bit of a crab bucket. Everyone is telling me that it shouldn't be done because it makes Rock worse, but why not fix both types? If two people are hanging from a cliff, I'm not going to leave them both there because it's unfair to pull up one first.
@@CammyMeeleTea I'm on board with rock also getting a bit of a tweak. Was under the impression that you were mainly focused on fixing ice type only and I didn't want another type that is somewhat struggling to be made worse.
@@CryoDagger No, it's fine sometimes people click off before the end or comment while the video is going, and I talk fast, so you might have missed it.
I said: "This video is already too long, and that process made me realize that I want to rework some other weaker types like Grass, Bug, and Rock first."
To me, I would make Ice resist Dragon, Water, and (maybe) Fairy but in exchange dragon would now be super effective vs Electric (so as to give dragon type moves a reason to be used as a form of coverage as well as compensation)
I would also make it so that Fighting is no longer super effective vs Ice, in no small part to allow steel to distinguish itself more from Fighting aside from how it deals with fairy (formerly it was redundant)
Outside of the Ice type, I'd also make it so fairy no longer resists bug, and Change up poison's offensive matchups aside from fairy.
One interesting Mon that would change a lot with this imo is Hisuian Avalugg. It no longer has so many weaknesses, losing weakness to Rock, Ground, Water, can switch in on electric moves, but still keeps painful 4x Steel and Fighting weaknesses. But they both are mainly physical types, so MAYBE with its insane defensive bulk and Snow it can survive a non-stab coverage move with these types? Idk.
It can yeah. Max Def Hisui Avalugg guarentee survives +Speed Weavile’s Life Orb Low Kick (120BP) without Snow. Though I imagine Hisui wouldn’t go all out in def investment given it wants to do damage with that big attack stat.
Ice should be super effective against water and resistannt against ground and rock instead of being weak to rock.
Disagree about the super effective on Water, agree with Ground. Rock makes sense, but unless we give Rock some buffs, I have to disagree for now.
@@CammyMeeleTea well rock will have to be changed as well. I was just giving ice as an example.
Okay what the heck? I just started rendering my video about this and this shows up?
Quite honestly I think ice is fine the way it is, yes it has no defensive value but it has insane offensive value, it’s a trade off and giving it more resistances is bordering on the edge of being too strong in a meta game
The problem I point out many times in the video is that Ice MOVES have good offensive value, but Ice POKÉMON do not. Everyone wants to run Ice Beam, Ice Punch, and Hidden Power Ice, right? Do you have to use an Ice type to do that? No, it's better to teach those moves to something else, like a Water type. Now what about all the defensive Ice types Game Freak pumps out? Do you want to use those defensively? Are you incentivized to use a defensive Ice-type? This is the specific issue I'm talking about. Slow, defensive Ice-types are part of Game Freaks vision for some reason.
Everyone wants to use an Ice move, no one wants to BE an Ice type.
For comparison, if Ice hits 4 things and is weak to 3 thing, then resisting 4 things isn't too crazy. 3 good types and one mid type resists Ice too (Fire, Steel, Water, Ice)
Now look at Ground. Ground hits 5 things. It's the only thing to hit Electric hard, one of the rare things Steel doesn't resist and is weak to, hits Fire (a deceptively resistant type) and hits Poison (alright defensive type) and Rock (not the best defnsive type). The only things Ground can't hit are flying (mid), Grass and Bug (they suck). In exchange Ground only has 3 weaknesses (the same as what I propose for Ice).
Ice is still just as boom or bust. But now you actually have to worry about defensive Ice types hitting back.
I strongly encourage you to go through each type pairing with Ice and look at how many easily exploitable x2 and x4 weaknesses Ice still has with all the changes I propose. Then keep in mind how slow most of them are. They're still mid. The ones that were oneshotting your team were always going to one-shot before these changes. Bundle, Chien-pao and other offense Ice types were banned, and the Ice walls are rotting in bottom tiers. All that changes is that Ice walls make it to uu/ru, and who knows, maybe BL.
But that's my prediction, let's talk about specific Ice-types that you think would be problematic in standard play, OU/UU.
@@CammyMeeleTea I feel like that’s more of a problem of how ice type Pokémon are designed not necessarily the type itself though, it’s like how you don’t really use bug types or normal types for defensive properties, or poison or grass offensive properties, the best Pokémon of those types play into the best properties of their respective types, the best ice types lean into their offensive capabilities, because it’s really strong, defensive ones always suck because they aren’t playing into what makes ice an amazing offensive typing, it’s more so game freak’s insistence on making slow defensive ice types
@@leftistdegeneratejs Then we agree. That's exactly what my two videos explain. I talked about why Ice is failing. Mainly the contradiction of Ice the type being designed as an offensive glass cannon, but Game Freak fetishizing slow, defensive Ice types.
In the last video I cite how Steel's identity is to be defensive, and so most are slow and defensive, but it's nice that Steel can still get fast offensive Pokémon like Lucario.
Bugs are fragile and fast, but we get Escavalier, Forretress, Bulky mega Scizor. (Notice how bugs resistances despite being a fragile thing is synergistic to other types).
Grass has walls, fast support, fast offense and all roles have success. Amoongus, Ferrothorn, Mega Venusaur, Whimsicott, Bulu, Kartana, Shaymin.
Variance is nice. Variety and diversity is good. If the Ice is meant to be a glass cannon and nothing else, I don't like that. If most are glass cannons but we get 5 viable tanks, cool. Some of the coolest and most notable Pokémon are the ones that don't follow the stereotype of their type. Even if every Ice type was fast and hit hard like Weavile and was successful, that would be boring. They'd be no different than Dragons.
Water can be Bulky, can have swim swim sweepers, can have raindish or hydration. Has physical and special walls. Has CroCune. Has so many options.
I want Ice to have variety like other types. Doesn't need to be perfectly equal variety. Just 2 good Ice walls. 3 good Ice bruisers.
And so if 5/6ths of the Ice roster is gonna be tanks, I may as well fix the existing ones like Avalugg in Game Freak's Ice wall vision.
I have a future video planned where I make Ice types that can thrive as Ice is now. But obviously doing Game Freak's job and making Ice types that do stuff without just giving broken stats takes time.
The glass canon archetype in Pokémon is defined to failure
Another possibly good way to buff Ice types is to make them immune to burns. In exchange, all Fire types will be immune to freezing, thus possibly forcing the game developers to get rid of Magma Armor, as only Fire Pokémon have that ability, AFAIK.
11:25: So THAT'S what happened to the Rock Mushroom after Super Mario Galaxy 2...
11:55: "Donkey Kong trapped in a pyramid" (insert Kroc from DK64 saying "GET OUT!!!" here)
Jump to 13:22 for ***JOHN CENA!!!*** (insert his theme here)