By the way this was a more like rushed breakdown, if you would like to see me redo it I'll put more time into editing it so it could look good and I have a few more things to say about this game, this video was just some of the main things that killed it off hard
I'll be honest with you most of the reason the game is dying is because the initial creator of the game (Stefan Knorr) has left the project, then after this happened a global working for Graal named Xor came along and deleted THOUSANDS of accounts of anyone mentioning Stefan or unixmad's name in-game, granted no one authorized him to do this but he took it upon himself to do it anyways. These days Stefan seems pretty happy running Corleone/iAppBeats, and Graal is still just bleeding to its death, it's unfortunate things had to be this way because of petty adults acting worse than children.
The nostalgia is unreal. I remember back when the game was still popular and young I would play all the time. I played the game completely wrong and barely progressed but I didnt care. i was a little kid having the time of my life and looking back at it, I wish I could turn back time but all good things have to end and it brings a tear to my eye. Graal will forever be remembered as one of the greatest games of all time.
2013 Player here! Its crazy how much the game has not changed. I stopped playing for about 4 years and came back and everything is almost the same. I agree with the towering, miss york tower too. They need more shops with more variety and price ranges. Its crazy how dead the game is now, you see the same 3 guilds with the towers everyday. Insane to think its now to under 1000 people online consistently and under 500 at some times.
i miss this game, i first played it in 2013 when i was like 9. I'm 17 now. I'm probably gonna get this game again soon i miss it, its a shame that its dead
broo I remember those times😔 and I just can't understand why they didn't put more effort into making the game they already created better and better instead of creating graal 3D for example
Making gralats not farmable for other players is one of the developer's worst decision till this day. Yeah it's all back now, but the dmg has been done... All those mini game houses are all gone and dead
Used to be a player back in 2000-2003; it's crazy to see Graal Online Bank, Angel's Place, and the burger shop still in the same place. Graal wasn't huge, but it had a following back in those days, peaking at 300~350 players. What I really enjoyed about Graal back then was the community. You had hackers, cool kids, nerds, nighttime players, and people from different countries; everybody knew everybody. Quests back then were to upgrade your sword from Lv1 to Lv3 (Dealing .5, 1.0, or 1.5 damage). Hearts went from 12~15 (If you had 15, you were considered a Legacy player due to the quests being removed). There were no raids, no new quests. Getting everything could take a week, depending on how often you skipped school ( I think it took me like 4 months because my Computer only had 265Mhz and 2RAM). In end game, you played to chat with other players. Show them around, or PK them. If you got to know the right people you could get on staff, and getting to the staff level was pretty fun. I made it to a Game Coordinator (GC) and Graal Police (GP); maybe one of my favorite times in my life was being a GC; being allowed to host games with creative ideas was fun af, and maybe the biggest reason why I got into RPG Maker during the era too. I think the biggest setback to Graal was when it became "too big"., when I finally quit Graal in 2003, it was mainly due to getting my first job, getting out of high school, and newer, better games coming out in 3D, to be exact, one being FFXI, an MMO with kind of the same concept, building on Community, but having Levels, more quests, etc. In the end, Graal Online was my first MMO, and I made some friends that I still have today after 20 years; it also gave me a lot of internet terms and Lango that I still use today cause I'm a loser. Also, shout out to anybody who played during this time. Shizty, Rhea, Jokerswild (Biggest heist I've ever pulled off that backfired), DaDude (Sorry for the prank I played on you, and your Sister snitching out you - you were a nice dude), Terzel (You were the GC admin, can't remember your screen name - but you joined the army when you retired from GC Admin), Darkdragon (First Graal Friend), Tim (the hacker guy), Greg (Your screen name changed so many times, so I just call you by your real name), Minamoto, and I'm sure there's others that I've not listed. Still, if I heard your name, I'd tell you everything about you (I have a decent long-term memory). Oh, my name, was HolyDragoon (GC) - former Game Coordinator
Man I grew up with this game back in 2010, I had the guild exclusive hat for Magic which was the cool ass toaster. I guess makes sense why it died down the way it did because it doesn't look like they added much content after I quit which was like 2014-2015. There were people glitching out of the map and finding hidden new maps but looks like they never released them after all this time.
I remember finding this game in its prime i loved it alot played it alot up until 3 years ago when i fell off the game on for the fourth time. So many people were in the school before i left
Played iClassic a lot back in 2010. Same with iEra and iZone. I stopped playing around the time iZone came out and just got on every couple of years or so to see how it's doing. Good times, I wish I could go back.
TSOPP THIS GAME BRINGS BACK SO MANY MEMORIES 😭 I miss playin it and talkin with random people, it was so fun to playing family that shiii hit different!! 😼
This game was something else back then. I remember always starting over and trying to get the mouse or having clan battles and creating characters. It comes back to memory every once in awhile
@@InfinitePixelsinfinitepixels i am doing well, now on Y8 website on their have a little ploblem to reset my password. When i go to their graal site and add my email it says error submission, like my account dosent even exist even if i get login requests when i do *identify* in-game!
THANKS TO TWO TURKISH ADMINS, EVERYONE GOT BORED AND TIRED OF THE GAME, THEY QUIT IT BECAUSE THEY REFLECTED THE THINGS THAT HAPPEN IN REAL LIFE IN THE GAME, BECAUSE THEY BAN ON THE SMALLEST THINGS ALL THE TIME.
Bruh while I’m studying for my high school finals I might have just pondered too much 😭 I randomly thought of this game and how I used to play it back in 4th to 6th grade :(
I literally been saying that the game dying af, and I had to make a wholeass community post barrage on the game bruh. Admins won’t be listening to save their life dawg.
@@InfinitePixelsinfinitepixels Yeah, and check my latest community post. The mfs are so hypocritical, they make rules they don’t even follow by default.
I remember at one point there was around 6k people on line years ago. I played this game as a kid when I was around 9-10 years old. I’m 20 and so sad they barley do anything that the community asks for
this game was the peak of my highschool, yes i am pathetic. i still remember I do al the events and loots and have like a wife? guilds? i dont remember hahaha but still great game. i remember all the paths and maps
I started playing graal in 2001 or 2002 back when there was only a PC version. Best game of my life, even though servers peaked at like 200 max online players in its golden age lol. There were so many different playerworlds (servers, like Classic, Era, etc) with different systems. So much fun.
It’s sad seeing this game die , but I see why it did and why it still is, they haven’t made any major updates or changes , new features , or something interesting , I wish some new version of this game came out or something , cause the admins already killed this game enough , glad to see it’s hitting 1k player base though , I’d be sad though if they shut the servers down one day , hopefully not soon
i had around 8k hours in this game from 2011-2015 during the golden age of this game but after 2016 something idk what it was it was just dying it felt so dead and was not going the right way
For me one of the great reasons why the game is losing its fanbase is that the prises are unbelievably expensive i mean why would they charge 2500 gralats for a hoodie ?
it works for me cus I'm fuckin obsessive and I remember how I used to spend hours and hours just getting to those high prices lmao what I think it's actually bad is how the developers didn't add any new ways of getting gralats, more missions and stuff, the fishing thing would be fire but wtf are they even doing😔 (sorry for bad english)
Seriously. People in here saying it was good in 2011. They have no idea how incredible the game was before they completely redid it in 2009. Played since 1999. One of the best MMOs of all time
Yeah, I don't think this game is going to get popular again. I remember when there were over 6-8k players on average. A lot of people were staying inside the school but now it's deserted. You just see people around Burger Refuge now. Main problem for me is, the admins or developers really want people to buy gralats. Back then, there was no limit for the number of loot or bugs you acquired. Now, it's really restrictive with them limiting the number. I believe there's going to be a bit of a surge in popularity again when it is available on Steam, but I'm sure it's going to die down anyway. If they really wanna save this game, they should actually listen to what the players want.
Was such a good game i absolutely loved it but i quit as soon as they added bees, i had just made a farm too which sucked because i farmed up in somebody's house and then i spent all that hard work on a farm that i couldnt even use
Me already Quit the game on 15 march 2022 ago….5months already! After 7 years i playing this game! 2015-2022….but I believe 1day maybe I’ll be back again…..cuz i maybe quit the game but my status i just wanna hiatus’s for long time 2-3 years
Honestly i played back in facebook times and then came back on mobile but fr classic is not the same its just not fun for me anymore also its also kinda the fact that when you start new on the game you feel like a kackboon you habe nothing and all those ogs with the (good) rares and the new items are more or less such bad imo. Same for era its corrupted asf i was banned for briefing staff (permanent) cuz i made jokes about it. Zone is hella dead like 200 players but also it always was some kind of dead it only had 2k back when i played it compared to era or classic thats nothing and about the new ol‘west and delteria i cant tell much. Overall the game was more likely killed by time/age and shitty decision or new content from developers/manager (sorry for bad english i just wrote down my thoughts 1:1 without thinking about grammar)
This game has so much potential, they did some updates nobody wanted/we didn't need which made it die but if this game releases on steam maybe that'll boost up the audience...hopefully
The game has been taken over by Brazil idk why I miss when it was na and eu now it’s just 12 yr old toxic Brazilian kids who u can’t even pvp because their lag is horrible
By the way this was a more like rushed breakdown, if you would like to see me redo it I'll put more time into editing it so it could look good and I have a few more things to say about this game, this video was just some of the main things that killed it off hard
The morph that you mentioned for graaloween was actually from 2016 not 2015 XD just thought i'd correct that for ya XD
I'll be honest with you most of the reason the game is dying is because the initial creator of the game (Stefan Knorr) has left the project, then after this happened a global working for Graal named Xor came along and deleted THOUSANDS of accounts of anyone mentioning Stefan or unixmad's name in-game, granted no one authorized him to do this but he took it upon himself to do it anyways. These days Stefan seems pretty happy running Corleone/iAppBeats, and Graal is still just bleeding to its death, it's unfortunate things had to be this way because of petty adults acting worse than children.
The nostalgia is unreal. I remember back when the game was still popular and young I would play all the time. I played the game completely wrong and barely progressed but I didnt care. i was a little kid having the time of my life and looking back at it, I wish I could turn back time but all good things have to end and it brings a tear to my eye. Graal will forever be remembered as one of the greatest games of all time.
thats so real
THIS.
Me too, had no idea what I was doing but I was just having fun
Bro your saying nothing but facts right now....
same, I didn't know what i was doing loll but it was sooooooooooooo much fun!!!!!! and I started when back in like 2001 or something like that
This game was the peak of my childhood now I don’t know what happened to it, played since 2011-2016 the highlight of my younger days
A lot of dumb decisions honestly, they ruined it but they're slowly tryna fix that
are they really tryna fix it??? I don't follow any page of what's going on with graal so
2013 Player here! Its crazy how much the game has not changed. I stopped playing for about 4 years and came back and everything is almost the same. I agree with the towering, miss york tower too. They need more shops with more variety and price ranges. Its crazy how dead the game is now, you see the same 3 guilds with the towers everyday. Insane to think its now to under 1000 people online consistently and under 500 at some times.
i miss this game, i first played it in 2013 when i was like 9. I'm 17 now. I'm probably gonna get this game again soon i miss it, its a shame that its dead
Yeah hopefully when they release it on steam they advertise it a little
Literally just like me, played it in 2013 and now im 17
@@tennoo160 omg ur just like me fr
No way same here dude
Played around 2013 or so!
It's so sad man, classic used to have 4k+ people online at one point
Same for my graal olwest 500 to 50 :''c
More and more games keep overshadowing these simple and great games. But it wouldn't be too bad to still play it from time to time.
broo I remember those times😔 and I just can't understand why they didn't put more effort into making the game they already created better and better instead of creating graal 3D for example
Making gralats not farmable for other players is one of the developer's worst decision till this day. Yeah it's all back now, but the dmg has been done... All those mini game houses are all gone and dead
Yeah sadly 😔 idk what they were thinking
Not only farmable houses , they also destroy the looting. At year 2013 to 2015, I can loot 1k loots. But now, developer make it 200 limit.
@@Pix_an Completely forgot about this one, but yeah i agree. The Loot limit update is where it all started then it gets worst...
Yeah they keep tryna make ppl buy gralats 💀
I re-met my oldest graal friends and made a ton of new awesome friends during the covid graal period and now they have all disappeared again 🙃
Relatable 🤣 hopefully people start becoming more active soon.
Goku solos chopper btw ☝️🤓
haven’t played in 7 years
Idk what the devs were thinking with half of the updates they put out they made so many people quit bruh
Fr 💀
Used to be a player back in 2000-2003; it's crazy to see Graal Online Bank, Angel's Place, and the burger shop still in the same place. Graal wasn't huge, but it had a following back in those days, peaking at 300~350 players. What I really enjoyed about Graal back then was the community. You had hackers, cool kids, nerds, nighttime players, and people from different countries; everybody knew everybody. Quests back then were to upgrade your sword from Lv1 to Lv3 (Dealing .5, 1.0, or 1.5 damage). Hearts went from 12~15 (If you had 15, you were considered a Legacy player due to the quests being removed). There were no raids, no new quests. Getting everything could take a week, depending on how often you skipped school ( I think it took me like 4 months because my Computer only had 265Mhz and 2RAM). In end game, you played to chat with other players. Show them around, or PK them. If you got to know the right people you could get on staff, and getting to the staff level was pretty fun. I made it to a Game Coordinator (GC) and Graal Police (GP); maybe one of my favorite times in my life was being a GC; being allowed to host games with creative ideas was fun af, and maybe the biggest reason why I got into RPG Maker during the era too. I think the biggest setback to Graal was when it became "too big"., when I finally quit Graal in 2003, it was mainly due to getting my first job, getting out of high school, and newer, better games coming out in 3D, to be exact, one being FFXI, an MMO with kind of the same concept, building on Community, but having Levels, more quests, etc. In the end, Graal Online was my first MMO, and I made some friends that I still have today after 20 years; it also gave me a lot of internet terms and Lango that I still use today cause I'm a loser. Also, shout out to anybody who played during this time.
Shizty, Rhea, Jokerswild (Biggest heist I've ever pulled off that backfired), DaDude (Sorry for the prank I played on you, and your Sister snitching out you - you were a nice dude), Terzel (You were the GC admin, can't remember your screen name - but you joined the army when you retired from GC Admin), Darkdragon (First Graal Friend), Tim (the hacker guy), Greg (Your screen name changed so many times, so I just call you by your real name), Minamoto, and I'm sure there's others that I've not listed. Still, if I heard your name, I'd tell you everything about you (I have a decent long-term memory). Oh, my name, was HolyDragoon (GC) - former Game Coordinator
I grew up with this game never knew how to play but i enjoyed it so much,downloaded it again for nostalgia and now i just see brazilians playing
Man i played this game in 2013 and now i’m in the fucking Marines, this video reminds me of my childhood
Damn 😳 well I hope everything is going well good ♥️😁
I was hanging out with a guy on a bench back in 2013 2014 or 2015, just sharing my memories with this game!
Man I grew up with this game back in 2010, I had the guild exclusive hat for Magic which was the cool ass toaster. I guess makes sense why it died down the way it did because it doesn't look like they added much content after I quit which was like 2014-2015. There were people glitching out of the map and finding hidden new maps but looks like they never released them after all this time.
Finding out that they limited the gralats you can farm in your home is also kinda dumb too, what are they doing mann
I remember finding this game in its prime i loved it alot played it alot up until 3 years ago when i fell off the game on for the fourth time. So many people were in the school before i left
Played iClassic a lot back in 2010. Same with iEra and iZone. I stopped playing around the time iZone came out and just got on every couple of years or so to see how it's doing. Good times, I wish I could go back.
Yeah nobody plays now 😞 sad to see
Just hopped on recently after 6 years and it’s so nostalgic and sad
Yeah it feels so empty 😭
TSOPP THIS GAME BRINGS BACK SO MANY MEMORIES 😭 I miss playin it and talkin with random people, it was so fun to playing family that shiii hit different!! 😼
Sadly I quit playing game idk why but they kinda ruined the game making it more dry and grindy
Yeah I thought about quitting a lot, nothing to do especially with the low amount of players on now
Fr
8.5k loot before the update
Had a 10k goal
Damn bro 😳
This game was something else back then. I remember always starting over and trying to get the mouse or having clan battles and creating characters. It comes back to memory every once in awhile
Back in 2015-2016 i hanged out with a guy on a bench. I wonder what haplened to him! Its been so long!
Hopefully you both are doing well 😎
@@InfinitePixelsinfinitepixels i am doing well, now on Y8 website on their have a little ploblem to reset my password. When i go to their graal site and add my email it says error submission, like my account dosent even exist even if i get login requests when i do *identify* in-game!
Why don't u play on the official website?
@@InfinitePixelsinfinitepixels idk because i thought the official game was on Y8 site, lol! 😂
Nah 🤭 it's classic .graalonline .com
THANKS TO TWO TURKISH ADMINS, EVERYONE GOT BORED AND TIRED OF THE GAME, THEY QUIT IT BECAUSE THEY REFLECTED THE THINGS THAT HAPPEN IN REAL LIFE IN THE GAME, BECAUSE THEY BAN ON THE SMALLEST THINGS ALL THE TIME.
I would literally develop the game better than the admins bro
Lol 🤣
man I remember playing this game heaps on my iPod touch when I was 8, seeing the game again and hearing the music is soooo nostalgic
Bruh while I’m studying for my high school finals I might have just pondered too much 😭 I randomly thought of this game and how I used to play it back in 4th to 6th grade :(
Focus on your finals 🔥 you better do good my G
@@InfinitePixelsinfinitepixels thank u ma g ❤️
This was my favorite game ever. I'm 25 atm, but I'd play a game like it if someone carried the torch.
i just logged in yesterday after a year or so and the game is dead af smth must be done bro
I will take this game by storm
hopefully they never shutdown the game, i love coming back to play it, hopefully again there’ll be a rise of players active
The game is slowly coming back. There is over 1k people everyday now
Does it have over 1k even when it's late? 😳
2024 now and everything's still the same, but my delusional ass still thinks the game will be saved and we will have the updates we are dying for
I literally been saying that the game dying af, and I had to make a wholeass community post barrage on the game bruh.
Admins won’t be listening to save their life dawg.
Yeah it's so sad, this game could be good but classic doesn't rlly listen to the community...well not that much
@@InfinitePixelsinfinitepixels
Yeah, and check my latest community post.
The mfs are so hypocritical, they make rules they don’t even follow by default.
Because admins now is totally TEENS. and that it's not a joke.
I remember at one point there was around 6k people on line years ago. I played this game as a kid when I was around 9-10 years old. I’m 20 and so sad they barley do anything that the community asks for
Game is so dead now 😞 sad
this game was the peak of my highschool, yes i am pathetic. i still remember I do al the events and loots and have like a wife? guilds? i dont remember hahaha but still great game. i remember all the paths and maps
I started playing graal in 2001 or 2002 back when there was only a PC version. Best game of my life, even though servers peaked at like 200 max online players in its golden age lol. There were so many different playerworlds (servers, like Classic, Era, etc) with different systems. So much fun.
It’s sad seeing this game die , but I see why it did and why it still is, they haven’t made any major updates or changes , new features , or something interesting , I wish some new version of this game came out or something , cause the admins already killed this game enough , glad to see it’s hitting 1k player base though , I’d be sad though if they shut the servers down one day , hopefully not soon
i had around 8k hours in this game from 2011-2015 during the golden age of this game but after 2016 something idk what it was it was just dying it felt so dead and was not going the right way
the golden age was 2011-2015? lmao
no
golden age was around 2002
once they added player worlds and bomy's and crap like that the game died
For me one of the great reasons why the game is losing its fanbase is that the prises are unbelievably expensive i mean why would they charge 2500 gralats for a hoodie ?
it works for me cus I'm fuckin obsessive and I remember how I used to spend hours and hours just getting to those high prices lmao what I think it's actually bad is how the developers didn't add any new ways of getting gralats, more missions and stuff, the fishing thing would be fire but wtf are they even doing😔 (sorry for bad english)
I played this in 2001, older than you think. AND THE GAME ;-;;;;;;;;;;;;
Damn 🤭
Seriously. People in here saying it was good in 2011. They have no idea how incredible the game was before they completely redid it in 2009. Played since 1999. One of the best MMOs of all time
Yeah, I don't think this game is going to get popular again.
I remember when there were over 6-8k players on average. A lot of people were staying inside the school but now it's deserted. You just see people around Burger Refuge now.
Main problem for me is, the admins or developers really want people to buy gralats. Back then, there was no limit for the number of loot or bugs you acquired. Now, it's really restrictive with them limiting the number.
I believe there's going to be a bit of a surge in popularity again when it is available on Steam, but I'm sure it's going to die down anyway.
If they really wanna save this game, they should actually listen to what the players want.
I agree with everything you said 💯
Was such a good game i absolutely loved it but i quit as soon as they added bees, i had just made a farm too which sucked because i farmed up in somebody's house and then i spent all that hard work on a farm that i couldnt even use
What happens when you ban everybody for the smallest things or just because one person reported u for pettiness.
Omg this game was me and my brother’s childhood and I honestly think it was my first MMO
Me already Quit the game on 15 march 2022 ago….5months already! After 7 years i playing this game! 2015-2022….but I believe 1day maybe I’ll be back again…..cuz i maybe quit the game but my status i just wanna hiatus’s for long time 2-3 years
Played this game 2012 - 2015. Towering in snowtown with Sense.
Wish they'd become popular again like mine craft or roblox did
I don't think the servers can support that many players XD but same I really want this game to become popular
@@InfinitePixelsinfinitepixels if they put the all graal games on steam high change to be popular
Yeah they just gotta promote it on there when they or if they ever drop it on steam, been like more then a year now since they announced it
@@InfinitePixelsinfinitepixels yee sadly but who knows maybe they announce it one day xd
Rip swamp 😩
Ahh good memories and my mom’s credit card
I first started playing in 2011, mostly played for the Spar Arena.
Honestly i played back in facebook times and then came back on mobile but fr classic is not the same its just not fun for me anymore also its also kinda the fact that when you start new on the game you feel like a kackboon you habe nothing and all those ogs with the (good) rares and the new items are more or less such bad imo. Same for era its corrupted asf i was banned for briefing staff (permanent) cuz i made jokes about it. Zone is hella dead like 200 players but also it always was some kind of dead it only had 2k back when i played it compared to era or classic thats nothing and about the new ol‘west and delteria i cant tell much. Overall the game was more likely killed by time/age and shitty decision or new content from developers/manager (sorry for bad english i just wrote down my thoughts 1:1 without thinking about grammar)
Yeah it's honestly sad to witness it slowly falling off 😓
what is a kackboon
@@ravionjohnson8852 its an older german slang for calling someone „kack noob“ which basically turns into „shitty noob“.
ty@@Patrick-gd3zu
i wonder where all my friends are :( and how they’re doing
EDIT: oh my god i forgot i had a husband
Poor guy 😞
Etherion Online is the new 2D future game it’s coming out on march 11
I'll check it out maybe thanks for letting me know 🤔🐱
This game still alive ? I quit this game since this game not available to play on Facebook
Well it's dying pretty fast now 😓
@@InfinitePixelsinfinitepixels this make me sad 😭 Im really miss all my friends in this game.
This game has so much potential, they did some updates nobody wanted/we didn't need which made it die but if this game releases on steam maybe that'll boost up the audience...hopefully
@@InfinitePixelsinfinitepixels I hope so. If they make this game free to play and no need to pay like gralat. I'm sure they will comeback
@@putrapro6554 you can play on pc like go find grall online clasic and you will find
For me the game is just so buggy. If you leave the app for a single second you need to restart it. Not sure if everyone experiences that but I do
Ay if anyone remembers Pum Pum
That may or may not be me
(I doubt anyone would remember that)
A men you said it graaloween sucks now due to u can buy my angel statue morph and they made bazaar hats to mad hatter store and that ruined it
I used to play this game without knowing what i'm doing hahaha
Honestly I don't think anyone knows what they're doing 😂
because of admins
Actual facts being spit
2015 2014 2016 was it's prime
My account is almost 10 years old I stopped at the peak
I left solely because of the bee
What bee 🤯🐝
@@InfinitePixelsinfinitepixels the farm bee, the annoying one
Oh yeah that sucks, hate that and how they limited the amount of gralats u can farm in your house now 😔
I never play graal again cuz im bored
Graal is so boring now😭
Fr it sucks 😔 game has some good potential
geiles video brudi
🥰
2018 have 5234online in graal classic but uptade new lmite de farm and hor and unlock for gratis this si for all players gine with graal classic 🤔🤔
chad
True RAAAAAH
Come era bro sm more going on
I'll check it out 😳
The game has been taken over by Brazil idk why I miss when it was na and eu now it’s just 12 yr old toxic Brazilian kids who u can’t even pvp because their lag is horrible
Real
I was in the Fire Nation guild but I got done up by some tricks where I lost my account
Fire nation 😼🔥🤞
Ay if anyone remembers Pum Pum
That may or may not be me
(I doubt anyone would remember that)