Why the Racquet Face Closes on the Federer Forehand
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- Опубликовано: 3 ноя 2024
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A question I frequently get asked by my students is why the racquet face closes on the Federer forehand. This mysterious occurrence is due to Roger’s contact point. Find out why this is taking place and how it can improve your game.
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Find out why there's no such thing as the unit turn on the forehand: bit.ly/3esJ6UO
Hey man I would love to see what you mean by no unit turn... pick your brain!
Riiiightttt... Again this is disingenuous. Do you always have time to do a unit turn? No, sometimes you hit on the run or have to shank it. Are you always trying to get into a position where you can unit turn for maximum power and control? Yes. What even is this channel?
best channel for those working on their tennis technique!
Wow! Another great video. Before I saw this, I was watching slow-mo of my (Eastern grip) forehand and noticing the racquet face closing sometimes (and opening sometimes) after contact and wondering why that was happening. I went back, and sure enough, when contact was low on the strings, my racquet face closed after contact, and when it was high, it opened temporarily. It always stayed neutral when I fed the ball (probably because I hit it flat, as you pointed out in your flat forehand video). Brilliant observation!
Knowledge doesn’t fade by time, old video still learn. Thank you. Personal thought. Roger forehand is difficult to use in the run with heavy incoming ball, it’s error intolerances, everything have to be in perfect position, well, that’s why he is roger.
Ahhhhhh huh!!. Very insightful analysis. I use an eastern grip. The racquet face on certain shots after contact always goes horizontal. Especially the ones that have power and pace. I call it my “Elbow” shot because, just before I make contact with the ball, I pull my upper right arm/shoulder into my chin which causes the arm to wrap around my chest .... And I push the right elbow for emphasis. It’s one of those “power shots” I use to surprise my opponent (LOL). And whenever I break the strings, I always wondered why the centered strings weren’t the ones broken but the ones that were closer to one side of the racquet. In 40 years of playing, no one has ever given a correct answer until you came along. All they would say is, I needed to hit more on the center of the racquet face and I won’t miss hit the ball...🤣🤣 Thanks Niko!
🙏🙏
Federer strikes the ball below the sweetspot for the same reason he, and others, close the racket face (~5°) at contact: to increase topspin. I have read forum discussions between pro-level players about deliberately taking the ball below the sweetspot for increased topspin. There is a South Korean study on the subject that identified two factors of stroke production that contributed significantly to topspin intensity (> RPM), upward racket path and *closed racket face at contact.*
And while I defer to your expertise and cannot fault your logic, the ball does not, in fact, always travel to where the racket face is pointing. Factors that can cause the ball to deviate from the expected direction (in increasing relevance): the ball's angle of incidence to the stringbed, the racket's path prior through contact, the ball's interaction with the strings, i.e. friction, launch angle, stretch & snap-back.
I can't pretend to be anything other than a student of the subject, but may I refer you to the original research collected and "reprinted" on the Tennis Warehouse University website. As a master educator and student of the game, I am certain you will find it interesting if not indisputable, compelling if not conclusive, and hopefully as fascinating as I did and still do.
We love the tips you produce!! We would be so grateful if you could help us improve our tennis!!
I'm confused about starting the upward part of the swing earlier. How is that different from a typical low to high swing path!?
As a player with a semi eastern grip what he means is that there is two parts on the swing. (I really dont think about it to much) Basically there is the horizontal motion (generated by the coiling of the non hitting *rest of the body follows) arm and vertical motion. The vertical motion starts happening a tad bit after and is mostly created by (I'm not 100 percent sure but that's how it feels when I hit) forearm (wrist is passive) and shoulder rotation. So basically what the video says is when us easterners or semi eastern want to hit topspin (on flat shots you do not really need this trick) we consciously (until intuitively) initiate this vertical motion a little earlier.
I hope this helped!
It is obvious that Deen has an intuitive grasp of what happens on the topspin forehand, which is what the rest of us (chumps) should be striving for. But even such kinesthetic learners as Deen _DO_ (briefly) pass through a conscious phase where they have to think about what they're doing. That said, for a thoroughly detailed description of what he is alluding to above, I recommend RacquetFlex's excellent treatise on the modern forehand:
ruclips.net/video/k_iLAQnOsRY/видео.html
[Note that I'm not steering you away from Intuitive Tennis! No one in the YouTubiverse can match Nic's direct experience of playing tennis at an elite level, nor his exhaustive collection of video tutorials from the most essential fundamentals to the most subtle nuances encountered in high caliber tennis.]
The racket face closing was part of his swing. There is slowmo footage of him mis-hitting high on the string bed, causing the racket face to open substantially, then closing the racket face.
When he mis-hitted low, that only accentuated his closing the racket face action.
The racquet really got on edge (noticeably windshield wiper) when he emphasized topspin.
Also, when he drove the ball more with a flatter swing and really let his wrist flex through contact, it looked like he was pointing at the other end with the tip of the racquet.
Well that happens because of the grip, with the Eastern grip the racquet face after contact will tend to close naturally due to the path of the racquet angle, It doesn't affect the shot.
Yes, i Have often wondered about that aspect of Roger's forehand,
Watched hours of slow motion of his forehand
interesting video
One comment about the emulation of his stroke on this video is that Roger's trajectory of the racket is more parallel to the ground
And he usually finished the stroke half way on his upper arm and not on his shoulder...
I also think that, the fact that Roger has his arm completely straight at contact (not many other players have) that has something to do with the racket face closing
Good point about the lower point of contact closing the racquet face. What about the rotation of the dominant arm just before ball contact? This seems to both result in a windshield wiper movement and to close the racquet face.
My first thought when I noticed that it was how his arm and wrist are loose, how lightly he holding the racket. Should that be mentioned, is that a factor?
Good deep lesson 👍
I have to thank your insights as it has solved the mystery of my backhand. I am a single-hand backhander and I used eastern grip. For years I was puzzled why at times that I intend to hit a topspin backhand but I ended up having my racquet stuck UNDER the ball with the racquet face open. Now I realized the ball had obviously struck the top half of the racquet face and my "weak" eastern grip allows the racquet to flip open. Now I am gradually shifting my grip towards semi-western in hope to avoid it. Would welcome any suggestion of other means to avoid it. Thanks.
I hit my forehand like Federer and close my racquet face at contact. The reason is due to the heavy topspin I generate which requires the face of racquet to close and extreme racquet head acceleration.. So long as you brush up and through the ball rapidly then the ball will go over the net. If you swing through the ball with a closed face without brushing it up then it will go into the net.
When the ball bounces up from the group, it has angle not horizontal, therefore, in order for the racket face to be perpendicular to the coming ball that's bouncing from the ground to the racket, the racket face at the contact point does not have to be vertical. It should be adjusted a bit to be in close position to make it perpendicular to the coming ball's direction.
i wonder with people who wonder about obscure things like how certain people hit or grips they use if they mastered the basics to the t. thanks for the video
Always a great video! Thank you :)
Thank you Cody
Roger doesn't even know what forehand grip he uses, much less the spot on the racket or angle he hits it with lol. I'm not kidding, there's an interview online where someone tried to end the controversy over whether Roger hits with "extreme eastern" or the traditional one and Roger straight up said he didn't know what grip he uses.
Interview link: ruclips.net/video/I18w2xGkoMo/видео.html
Sir are you sure that racket must be neutral at contact ? I read that a small inclination (few grades) is acceptable
Fed learned the game with an eastern grip and the sport evolved during his formative development years. He developed his personal swing as a way to create enough topspin and control to compete against similar level elite players with more efficient forehand grips. The semi western forehand grip is by far the most efficient forehand grip for modern tennis. No one is commenting on the obvious deficiencies of the eastern grip at high ball and racquet speeds. It is no accident that the eastern and continental forehand grips vanished like the dinosaurs as the ball speed increased over the decades. More ball speed means more momentum means more force acting on the racquet head as the ball hits the ground and angles up into the racquet face. Players in the game developed semi western grips to effectively cover the ball easily without having to physically cover the ball by using forearm and wrist as Fed does. It is only because Fed has supernatural timing skills that he can make this work, otherwise you would see many more eastern forehands at the world class. I would estimate over 80% of modern players have some form of semi to full western forehand grip. Federer's personal forehand style only looks good because he is so incredibly graceful and a creative shotmaker as a player, with genius hands and timing.
Do I get this right? The goal of this early upswing is to deliberately hit off center, which in turn closes the racket face, which maximizes spin/control?
Otherwise I wouldn't understand why one would not want to hit in the center with that same early upswing.
Hi Thanks for your great videos. I have been wondering why many pros contact point is below centre. The deeper question is "why have many pros' settled on a forehand where this happens?" (ie is there an advantage Vs hitting in the centre, which is the point of max power?). My current theory is consistency of swing motion and reduction in muscle stress, as follows. If your 'normal contact point' is below centre then when you contact 'too high' the racket will remain neutral - or 'too low' the racket will close, so the arm is always doing the same closing motion; whereas if your normal point is the centre, then if 'too high' the racket will deflect open, and 'too low' will close, with this additional twist stressing the arm more. Another possible reason would be if the racket deflection (twist) altered the ball path, but I have seen a video which suggests that the contact is too short for this to happen. Let me know what you think.
It stems from the vertical swing path ie topspin that’s at times initiated prior to contact
Yes the racket comes up from below the ball and contacts under the centre...But if it was better to hit in the middle (not below sweetspot) then pros' swings would have developed to simply start lower so as to allow for the movement and still contact the centre. There must be a reason why they find it better. Do you agree?
Jim, the racquet doesn’t always come underneath the ball. The vertical swing path is initiated prior to contact bc the intention of players is topspin. Players are not manufacturing any of this consciously. It’s the result of modern ATP tennis where topspin forehands are indispensable. It is because of the topspin that players are able to hit so hard without sacrificing control. Where on the frame the contact occurs is not important bc of modern racquet and string technology.
Nik can you look at face angle of one handed backhand in regards to the going into the slot position as it looks open and see it on your one handed backhand. Is that right or should face be neutral
Neutral. Don’t look at my 1-h. I have 2-hb
This is very interesting! I had no idea this whole time that I am doing the same with my forehands. I recorded myself recently and went back to my video after watching this. Also, my arms are very straight at the point of contact when hitting the ball like this hmm 🤔 .
Sorry, but your observation is not correct. It may be true that Roger hits a little bit off center, however this isn't why his racket face closes. It is all about eastern grip, racket-path and relaxed wrist. (By racket-path, I mean that Roger "usually" uses more of a linear racket path instead of an aggrassive heavy top-spin. Also when he hits a heavy top spin, one can see that his racket does not close after the contact)
Proof:
ruclips.net/video/KLzaaln6Rf0/видео.html
if you pay attention to contact point at 05:14, it is clearly "above" the center of the strings, but still the racket face closes after the contact.
Also if you watch the entire video, when Roger gets a low ball, naturally he brushes up the ball, and his racket does not close.
edit: I have realized that I wrote semi-western instead of eastern and corrected it.
@maccajoe I don't understand why you use such offensive words(like stupid) but I don't think you understand what I meant.
First of all sorry about my confusion. I have realized that I wrote semi-western instead of eastern. So I edited it.
This video suggests that the reason behind closed racket face after the contact is "being the contact point is below the center of the strings". The video that I addressed has a full of examples of this king of shots. However, the one forehand that I linked, shows that even if the contact point is "above" the center of the strings, the racket face still closes. So, the contact point can not be the case. Because no matter what the contact point is, his racket face closes(Except he miss hits via upper frame or something like that)
Also, when I say Roger uses a more linear racket path, I don't mean he hits completely flat. He is flatter comparing to other ATP players. Of course, sometimes, he hits heavy topspin shots, and when he does that, his racket doesn't close ;)
For example: if you watch the forehand of Andy ruclips.net/video/1uPetW4Uuig/видео.html
you may see that his racket path "more" upwards than Roger's. Also he uses semi-western grip. And these two prevents the racket face to close.
So, the reason of closed racket face after the contact is all about the racket path, the eastern grip and the relaxed wrist combined. And I bet, his racket would close even if he does a shadow swing.
Kerim Bal I agree with you that Roger's post contact closed face is not due to hitting below center BUT rather because it is necessary to keep the ball from flying. Proof of this can be understood by trying to hit topspin with a Continental grip. You MUST come thru the ball closing the face to keep it from flying, especially when hitting it out in front of the body. Also look at the RUclips video of "ATP Forehands". Nearly every player is closing his face to some extent after contact.
I have a problem with racket face, a lot of time i hit with a face open, im using a sw grip can i fix changing grip? Ty
I always close de racquet face after contact because I've figured out that I have more power and control when I pronate my forearm earlier. Something like Jack Sock. Sadly my elbow doesn't think the same...
But you dont only have to use an eastern forehand grip to achieve that, you can achieve that with a semi-western forehand grip too.
Fed's knuckle is on bevel 3.5 not estearn, when u hit the ball with ur knuckle on bevel 3.5, u can do exactly the same racquet's movement like him, but the problem is his timing is so precisely otherwise the ball will hit the net, that's why no one can hit a perfect forehand like fed with knuckle on bevel 3.5
Someone made a video on this topic, claiming that the power comes from the edge of the racquet string wich induces that the players are hitting the ball in this area on purpose.
i thought it was caused by a really relaxed grip
It is essential that he has a relaxed grip otherwise the racquet face wouldnt close after contact
The guy is so good that he has 3 shadows
Does it work on backhand?
I disagree with that, the racquet phase closes almost on every flatter stroke, it's very natural. Hitting flat stroke through the ball and not "breaking" the wrist is very awkward. However when you are lifting the ball to create top spin and hit less through the ball the racquet might not close when doing the windshield wiper, it will stay neutral, just depends on the stroke.
I also heard that it is because of his windshield wiper motion
I see a lot of Oscar Wagner influences in Nick’s stroke. Neck wrap finish and pulling across the ball concepts.
My dad taught me how to play. Oscar did spend time in Germany teaching but my dad doesn’t know him. Around the neck I’ve always done since juniors.
@@IntuitiveTennis Thanks Nic, was curious about how you came across those concepts.
Can you clarify the pulling across the ball movement at contact, doesn't that pull the racket off the ball and direct energy away from the target? Nadal and Federer extend towards the target, drive racket into ball for leverage.
Nadal and Federer don’t extend towards the target, they extend in the racquet drop. They, just like everyone else have a circular swing path. Oscar discovered this many years ago. The difference in my methodology is that (we) players are not consciously hitting through or across the ball. In fact, we have no idea what is happening shortly before or after contact. This is also why hitting through/across is an endless debate. It just happens to quickly.
What my research has shown is that the circular swing path is a direct result of ubiquitous fundamentals elements plus the the correct sequencing of the torso rotation.
ruclips.net/video/LbFEmpfYMhA/видео.html
When this technique is executed correctly the swingpath is circular without us ever being conscious of it.
I discovered this through 5 years of research prior to starting my RUclips channel.
Btw, all this information is in my bio, but since I value your comments I responded directly.
Take care Poida
Intuitive Tennis Thanks Nic for your reply and followup. Agree that contact happens too quick for players to be conscious or in control of what is happening in .004 seconds. People unfortunately look at still photos of contact or slow motion video and then try to micromanage the ubiquitous swing elements. If you ask any high level players what they think is going on in any given part of their swing they struggle with an answer because it’s so intuitive for them vs analytical and academic. They get the timing and syncing and sequencing optimized because of thousands of reps in practice and competitive situations, things most REC player just don’t do. And starting at an early age with an experienced and accomplished coach and player accelerates the learning curve.
The intuitive mental aspect of hitting the ball well is something that is very underestimated and unfortunately misunderstood in coaching. Great that your bringing more awareness to its importance.
Thank you Poida, I always appreciate your input. Your tennis knowledge is superb.
From what i studied RF FH He Often hits with closed racket face when attacking a rising ball. I recently done some tests and if you swing with enough speed and closed face(to a certain degree) you can hit a laser FH, but its very tricky and hard. Yet if you hit this correctly my opponent was commenting that he wasnt able even take the racket back even tho it was a rally in the middle of court.
Every pro closes the racket at contact...it is called covering the ball
other really plausible videos show that you actually need a closed (!) racket face on contact when you're hitting a top spin. I think it's even done by the pros of top tennis training... So now we have conflicting information
The purpose of this is confusing
Ok Roger.
Like others here I disagree with this explanation. You can see plenty of other pros who do this and even practice this position of the racket when swinging. My personal experience is that it is something that can be purposely “done” as you feel that you are “coming over” the ball in some situations. It is not used in all shots by anyone. It brings the ball down and makes a flat shot stay in the court. In effect there is torque that you create by twisting slightly the hand forward as it hits the ball that creates topspin. If it is not timed correctly it will lead to a mis-hit. But it is a part of the natural stroke of a high level player I believe. I am a USTA 5.0 type player.
Im hitting often balls with closed racket face my self. This way im getting nice top sping and lower trajectory with fast paced ball. But only when attacking, easy to miss hit
c est faux roger frappe bien avec sont tamis non fermé et apres il fait la rotation de sont poignet.
This is really disingenuous. Watch Federer's forehand in slow motion and you will see this happens maybe 10% of the time and it is a mis-hit. You will lose power and control if you do this. Obviously this is not a real problem for someone like Federer but club players are not going to get away with it. If you hit with the top or bottom you will probably return a short weak ball that your opponent can easily kill. The aim is to hit in the racket's sweet spot to get maximum control and power.
Hmm...
Ur face is right. But wrong grip
No. Just: no.