Marlin Microgroove Test - I Was Shocked ! ! !
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- Results of the Marlin Microgroove test surprised me. The .35 Remington Model 336 had shown promise. But I had never shot on paper to see how good or bad it was. I was shocked ! ! !
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My 336-RC (35 Rem.) was born in'59 as well.
My father bought it new and then I was born in '62 and I can remember being fascinated by it as far back as 1965.
It is my most special Marlin of all. It has taken a few nice whitetails over the years.
That's a great story. I have said several times in this format that firearms with family history are priceless. And yours sure fits that bill. Congrats!
'Here's to yesterday'...When people were proud to be Marlin owners. So much has changed :(
Hopefully, Ruger will return Marlin to the glory days!
You can buy an old Marlin dating back to those times. Just look for the "JM" stamping.
My JM 35 departs the fix only when I depart.
Not surprising to me. Over the years, I have found most Marlin Model 60s to be tighter shooters than other rimfires and every 336 I have owned has been significantly more accurate than my Winchester or Rossi lever guns and, for that matter, more accurate than most of the AK/SKS rifles I have owned!
Thanks for another cool video sir and be safe.
Thanks. And I concur about the Model 60. The one I bought my wife for Christmas last year shoots way better than any stock 10/22 I have seen.
Douglas J - While any particular individual rifle might perform head and shoulders above others, I have to say that "brand for brand" the Stevens brand 22's of days gone by, were the "hands down" most accurate 22's I've ever shot. And in college I used Winchester target 22's to get my college sports letter. I competed against Anschutz 22's which were (at that time) considered to be the Rolls Royce of target 22's.
Point being, don't look at the brand name of a rifle - look at what it is individually capable of.
At my age 67 its best to use a scope. I love the astetics of lever guns without scopes but my eyes don't. I think you debunked the myth of lever guns not grouping well enough. Much of today's interest is hyping extreme distance which I don't really have an interest in, ok for those who's interest lies there. There's just something about lever guns like old cars and trucks. I like quick follow up shot advantages of lever and pump action guns over bolt guns. Thank you for a very well done video. I hope you can keep up the good work.
I can relate...it’s hard to see both sights clearly. I use my 336 when I know my shots won’t go much beyond 150 yards. My 760 Gamemaster still reaches out a ways.
I hit 65 this coming July. My eyes just won’t play along. But I’m not gonna put a scope on a 1951 waffle top! I’m looking into the Williams Peep sight.
@@dr.froghopper6711 it is certainly worth a try. I hope it works might be perfect.
@ Bill Donnelly. I started this Target Suite project 13 years ago with long range precision in mind. But after achieving relative "success" with that endeavor I kind of lost interest and well, you see where I have wound up. Right where my heart is . . . with old blued steel and walnut, and mostly lever guns! I hope to keep up with this part of the "project" for as long as the Lord allows. Thanks again!
@@dr.froghopper6711 I had Williams peep sights on a 70s model 94. When I sighted it in I walked the bullets up the inch and a half wide board the target was on at 100 yds. I was shooting Winchester 150 gr silver tip bullets.
Impressive. I’m anxious to see the cast performance. Those older Marlins sure are beautiful.
Amen on the good looks. I'm pulling together components now in anticipation of that video. Good to hear from you, as always!
Many years ago I got my Marlin336/30-30 for Christmas, my first deer rifle. We were allowed to show at a shooting club with range officers. He told me don’t expect my gun to group very well…typical 30-30 opinion…I shot a 1 inch group at 100yd. He was totally surprised. People establish their opinions, without first hand experience.
I had a Model 336, in 30-30, that would shoot 1" groups, with factory ammo, all day. It was a early 70'S model, way before the cross-bolt safety. The new Marlins, after Remington bought the company, are crap. I was at a gun shop a couple of years ago. We were talking about guns and I told one f the owners, that I had a early 70's Marlin Model 39A Golden .22 and wouldn't trade it for 2 new ones. She asked me why. I told her the safety was one reason and quality was another. She said they'd never had any quality problems with the ones they sold and handed me one, from their display. I looked at it and showed her where the tang/wood fit was crappy. Then I held it up, between us and the window, and told her that, on mine, you couldn't see any daylight, between the stock and the receiver, like the large gap, on the lever side of her new one.
Gosh I hope that changes when Ruger's production of Marlin Firearms hits the shelves later this year. Fingers crossed 🤞
Oh great!🐮...got my 1894 45 colt in 1980 but it's nice. Just can't shoot lead cast bullets. Wood is real nice, wood to metal finish is great and with the right jacketed bullet it's accurate out to about 125 yards even with my old eyes! Maybe my friends saw your rifle or another Marlin with same type workmanship as yours has....that might explain why they're always asking if I'll sell them mine.
I had 8 or 10 of the 336 in 30/30 all was around 1.5 to 2" the last one i bought shot sub moa its in the 80's i kept it...
Interesting video, thanks for sharing. Got my attention because Marlin has been using that "Micro Groove" thing since I was a boy (I'm 56)
Not taking anything away from Marlin but I always thought that it was just a sales gimmick that their advertising sales team dreamed up.
I think it was a manufacturing "short cut" that the marketing team just made hay with😄
No, it was a great idea that Remington came up with, used on the nylon 66/77 series guns, and released to the public without aquiring a patent, copyright, or any other document declaring ownership. So when Marlin saw it in action and discovered there was nothing stopping them, they snagged it. I guess Remington has always had issues regarding management.
I don't know what my grouping is , but I do know my 336 Marlin in . 35 Remington drops deer where they stand. And that's good enough for me !
Yep, we get hung up on fine details sometimes with a hunting setup, when what matters is does it put meat in the freezer.
I found with my 2 late model 336Ws in 30 30 (one manufactured in 2017 the other early 2018) that they had very specific preferences of ammo, both factory and a years worth of experimenting with reloads. They both shot federal fusion 150 grain very well and Winchester Supreme 150s. For my reloads I was looking for a good load with 170 grain bullets for deer hunting so that is what I concentrated on. I finally found an excellent load with 34.5 grains of CFE223 and the Speer 170 grain bullet giving me an average velocity of 2140 fps. I too found that neither gun Liked maximum loads with any powder I used and that included Win. 748, BLC2, H4895 and LeverEvolution. I did find that both rifles shot everything better after I had put a couple hundred rounds through them. My conclusion is these rifles are capable of excellent accuracy. You just have to find the right load.
Great story Craig. Sounds like you are a shooting engineer as well. I wish components were a little easier to come by, and CHEAPER! Then I could really widen my "experiments".
Hornady's Leverevolution ammo (in the 30.30) was designed to work with marlin 336's. That's all I use in mine and it shoots one inch bulls eyes. It's my favourite deer rifle for the bush.
Same here. Leverevolution ammo is incredibly accurate and so is the Marlin 336!
My Marlin 30-30 with microgrooving drives tracks sub MOA with Winchester silver tips. Tried a dozen different brands and weights, and did the same with my reloads, and that Winchester Ammo was the clear winner in various climates. Every gun is different, even among same brand and model of gun. It's up to the shooter to figure out the harmonics of they're particular firearm, and then ultimately the firearms accuracy. But as far as my own experience with my Marlin in my environment...its a reliable gun that I love to take out.
Amen. Now I'm working on cast bullet accuracy in this same rifle. Most people don't reload, but with the ammo shortage, it's worth considering. And I have less trouble getting good cast bullets than I do with traditional jacketed ones.
@@TargetSuite Where there is a will, there's a way.
I've been shooting a Marlin 336 in
.35 Rem since I bought it new in 1977. I've always shot the Rem Core Loct 200 gr. soft points. It's never let me down. Thank you for this video highlighting an old classic that has sort of fallen out of the mainstream. It is still a wonderful, well preforming cartridge for hunting in thick cover where shots will usually be taken at 100 yards or less. Again, thanks for the video!
You are welcome! Thank you for your comment! You should check out my most recent video on why I hunt with the 35 remington.
My Marlin .22 LR bolt action sporting rifles shot fine with their microgroove barrels. The complaints that I have heard are related to lead bullet centerfire caliber handloads having poor accuracy. This had not often been an issue because few people were shooting lead bullet reloads. The microgroove barrels always shot fine using jacketed bullets. Marlin converted all their rifles to Ballard rifling in 1968, except for their rimfire rifles. The lead bullet issue started to become a problem when their 45-70 rifles became popular and 45-70 shooters more frequently use cast bullets. Cowboy action shooting also had become popular using pistol caliber rifles which use lead bullets.
I think you nailed it John. And I am going to try and solve that cast in m-groove mystery. At least for the .35 Remington.
Just finished looking at a website suggested by another RUclipsr regarding handloading the 44-40. It was stated that between the originals and the reproductions, barrel diameter can fluctuate enough to effect accuracy and was suggesting that any barrel should be slugged if using lead cast bullets to determine proper diameter. Sound advice.
My 1969 Marlin 336, 35 Rem, shoots 1 inch 5 shot groups at 100 yards, using 39 grs of Win. 748 powder with Hornady 200 gr round nose bullets. Can’t find a better load…nice video too….
Thanks Larry. I've thought about trying the W748 powder but just never "pulled the trigger" and bought any. Maybe it's time ;-)
I've noted similar results with the Hornady LeverEvolution in my Glenfield Model#30 in 30-30Win. Point of impact is approximtely 1ft higher at 100yds than than more traditional ammunition. No worries, sights and scopes can easily be adjusted.
Yep, I just wish I had more of that ammo to retest group size. Maybe I'll throw that into a future video. Thanks for watching!
I have bad groups with hornady
@@TargetSuite Would like to see how the Horandy shoots
The Hornady ammo shoots great, problem is I can't find any anywhere. It's like Hornady has out this ammo on the back burner for now.
Being 74 and Raised in the San Fernando Valley on a farm since I was 3 years old , my parents brought one of the first homes built in 1953 and worked in the Valley until 1998 when I finally got the job I wanted, the Owen’s Valley at the Control Gorge Power Plants.
The Marlin 39A is one of the Oldest 22 rifles still produced. I also have the Marlin in 45-70 one I inherited and another one in the stainless steel configuration, were I keep it in Homer Alaska. The TV series of Big Valley used Marlins while others used Winchesters .
You're seeing why I so love Remington ammo with good old CoreLokt bullets. Here's hoping Federal/CCI etal, the new owners, don't screw a good thing up!🙃🌵
I'll bet they leave well enough alone!
You never can tell what will happen when the resident beancounters get their hands on something. That's why the resident shooters should always have the last say!
@@thehoneybadger8089 And very little to say as well.
My .444, made in 1980, has MG rifling, and my 70 yr old eyes, with a peep sight, can shoot 2-2.5 groups at 100 yds, except with LeveRevolution ammo. Hornady says not to expect groups less than 4 inches with LE ammo in the .444. Ballard rifling shoots it well
Interesting comment about the LevRev ammo in the 444. That's a new one for me.
I want to start loading for my 336SC, a 30-30, 1959 manufacture as well. You answered my questions about crimping. Great video
Thanks Michael! Glad to help.
My dad's 100th anniversary 30-30 shoots that way all the time. My new 35 Remington is not to far behind. I love the content and older style rifles. Thanks
Thank you for watching . . . and commenting!
I used to use Speer's 180 grain flat point spitzer in my ,35 and IMR-3031 powder. It'll shoot 3 shot groups under an inch at 100 yards. It's a 1971 vintage model 336.
After a early .35 Remington video I bought a box of those Speer 180's. I'll probably feature them in an upcoming video.
@@TargetSuite I deer hunted in the mountains of NC for many years using a .35 Rem. Marlin 336. With the Speer handload it would rival or beat most bolt rifles during the annual deer rifle sight in with friends. Really made them scratch their heads. Once my cousin shot a 3 shot group off sandbags with it at 150 yards, under an inch!!!!!!!!! Some of those Marlins are tack drivers. For fun, I loaded some 125 grain hollow points .357 diameter. They'd shoot one hole at 50 yards! Also using IMR-3031 powder. A hefty dose at that.
My 1977 vintage 336 .35 will shoot sub MOA groups of 180 grain Speer bullets pushed by IMR 3031. NB: the carbine will start to string vertically after a few rounds as the heat and the barrel bands tend to flex the barrel. I shoot 3-4 rounds then must let the carbine cool. So your 3 shot groups are optimal for accuracy
Your first dings with Core-Lokt bullets is the same as mine except that I hand load the Core-Lokts. The only factory load its ever digested since I've owned it has been Federal 200gr Hi-Shocks that would group under an inch when the shooter could do his best. When I first got my 35Rem. I purchased a bunch of the component 200gr Core-Lokts and have bought more of them when I could find them. The problem being that Remington quit selling them a a reloading component so you have to be ready to shell out the cash when you find them. If I do my part my hand load that's pushing the Core-Lokts pretty hard will shoot under an inch to just over an inch consistently with a descent velocity increase of about 100fps over factory claims. I've never lost an animal shot with it nor have I been able to stop one in a whitetail deer. If I ever should run out of those Core-Lokts I'll buy factory ammo, pull the bullets and use them in my handloads. I'm that dedicated to that bullet in the 35Remingtin!!!
If all goes well I will take my 35 Rem chambered Marlin 336 to Alberta to hunt bear in the Spring of 2026. I have complete confidence that if I put the bullet where it belongs I will have a dead bear close to where it was when I squeezed the trigger. I will also take its big brother the 35Whelen to kill my second bear since I'm going to a two tag area.
I've been reloading since 1982, find the load your gun likes and shoot it,
the game won't know the difference between fast or slow......
George, keep it up !!
Yep, I agree. Proper placement is more important than power. And my willingness to back away from maximum has only come with age.
Most AR-15's at the $1000 range have a hard time holding 1 MOA. Much is the shooter, but so is it with that Marlin. I am happily surprised. Thank you!
Yep, my experience with AR's has been that they are great at slinging lead. Just not great at slinging it in a small area.
@@TargetSuite One of mine , looked like I was trying to pattern buckshot, have one now a bit better
The 336 in .35 Rem is one of my favorite. I'm old school and the lever action never gets old.
Me too John!
@@TargetSuite My Uncle let me use His for Deer Hunting throughout the 70's, I wish I could have kept that one. I do have a newer version in my collection and my Grandson can't wait to call it His own, :).
That's awesome. It will be a family treasure over time.
I have a Marlin 336 in 30-30 I used in Cowboy Action long range matches. It's micro-grooved and the Lee cast 150 gn. Lead Flat Nose Gas Checked bullets would skid down the barrel. I recovered several from the berm and saw the lack of clear refiling grooves. I finally found a load that worked. A5744 at 15.0 grains, gave me a velocity, 10 feet from barrel, of 1300 fps, and good accuracy at 100 yards. It also works well on small game and varmints.
I don't reload 30-30 or 35 but use Remington 150gr Core-Lokts in the 30-30 Marlin and 200gr Remington Core-Lokts in the 35 Marlin. 1 MOA groups were shot with a 3x9 power scope. I bought a used Marlin 30-30 a few months back which was probably made 3yrs ago. Since my 62yr old eyes don't do to well with iron sights any more I had an Aimpoint red dot I wasn't using so I put it on this newer Marlin. Today I sighted it in with 150gr Core-Lokts about 2" high at 100yds and it shot 1.5 to 2 MOA. I then took it out to 200yds and it shot (3 shot groups) a 6" group which is 3 MOA. At 200yds it shot 7" low which is right where it should be for being dead on at 150yds. The red dot made it so easy and quick to hit targets.
thats insane accuracy ..for ANY lever gun..much less a short barrel carbine..I once was the roud onwer of a 336c...and later purchased a 444sporter...and now , years later, I miss them from my 20 some gun rack...great video..like to see you do one one a M44 mosin 762x54r or even a 742 remington in my fav..the 30-06.....just purchased a 1978 model 742 in 06....I have heard folks tell me they were junk...not sure yet, but so far, I am not dissapointed...thanks for the great casts...
Steve, I was surprised as well. Lots of folks "claimed" that kind of accuracy, but I was respectfully skeptical. I'm working on cast bullet accuracy video now. Should post next Tuesday. So far, it's looking . . . 😉 I hope to see you next Tuesday in the comments. Thanks for watching!
My experience with micro groove barrels and lead is to load two thousand over with a gas check and medium hard alloy. That’s what worked for me looking forward to your next video.
Thanks! Do you know a source for .360" hard cast gas check bullets? I can't find any.
The thirty five loves the middle weight middle velocity loads, I tried the lead cast bullets in the micro groove rifle you'll need a gas check to control lead fouling.justvmy experiences . Great video of a old venerable cartridge.thank you for sharing
Thank you. And thanks for watching!
I love my "old" Marlins even though they all have Microgroove rifling. They easily shoot Minute of Deer or Hog at 100 and beyond. My .444 Marlin does very well at 200 yards or so with Hornady 260 grain RNJSPs. All of them are currently fed factory ammo ranging from 150 to 170 grain RNJSPs in the Waffle Top .30-30 (my pre-safety U.S. made Winchester '94 does the same by the way), while my .35 Remington, with Hornady "plastic pointed" bullets, shoots just a bit high but still gets the job done....But when it comes to "real pointy bullets" and I have reason to believe I may need to reach out just a wee bit beyond the 200 yard range I break out one of my Savage '99s with their rotary magazines and factory ammo (.250-3000 and .308 respectively). Excellent video as usual. Enjoyable AND educational!!!
Thanks! Great info. I love the Savage 99 and may be looking at a .308 in a few days. I haven't seen it yet so I don't know what kind of shape it's in at whether I will "pull the trigger" .
There were two versions that I know of in the Savage 99 in terms of the magazine. The version I have, and prefer, is of course the classic rotary verity (in numerous centerfire calibers) and the somewhat "infamous" later/last..."For Gods sake DON'T loose the box magazine because you won't find a replacement for it" variety which also allowed the '99 to handle pointy bullets. If Savage were to start producing, in modern steels and with nice wood, a 21st century version of the '99 In a deer and hog caliber or calibers I'd be all over it.
Model 1894 44 mag microgroove here. Mfg. 1972.
Most manufactured cartridges are minute of barn. Hand loads are 1"-1.5" @100yds using Nosler 230gr handgunner bullets. 44 mag was what started my adventure in reloading.
I never had any luck with the Hornady flex tip bullets. At best around 6"-8" groups. The last 3-4 rounds in the tube, the tips were mushroomed out and deformed by recoil. The flex tip bullets did perform satisfactorily in my revolver.
Nothing beats the consistency of carefully assembled handloads.
I like the convenience of factory ammo occasionally, but as you can tell, I'm all about handloads. Btw, I'm not an FTX fan either. Thanks for watching!
Thanks for taking on the issue of M-Groove/Ballard and Cast/Jacketed, it should be fun and informative. And by the way George, I am SMILING.
Awesome! Then I have been successful! Thanks!
My Marlin's in 35 and 30-30 all shoot 1 moa. I have never had one that didn't. Micro groove seems to work. Maybe they should try it in bolt guns.
👍
They did, my marlin model 81 has micro groove rifling
Klum kn
..
When you compare velocity variances to the grouping, it makes sense. Remington core lock is what i normally shoot before this ammo shortage. Now i save my Remingtons just for hunting. Casually shooting is whatever i may find at the time.
Yes sir, and you are very observant. Thanks!
"We got a bunch of ammo to shoot." Caught me. You and many of the commenters are very knowledgeable. I have owned a bunch of lever guns in my time but have sold them off due to profit and loss of interest. The most accurate(and best imho) was a steel BLR in .308. It just checked every box. Soft spot for older JM Marlins of all actions. Generally very accurate...Remlins=zero interest. Hey ,the good news is ....Maybe Ruger will straighten them out. Cheers.
Well, it wasn't actually "click bait" 😄 But it turned out I didn't have enough of the LeveRevolution stuff after all. And I am with you in anticipation of Ruger's handling of Marlin Firearms. I am optimistic.
That was my very first deer gun back in 1972. Couldn't keep 5 shots on a paper plate from a rest at 100 yards. Don't know if it was the ammo, seems Remington was all I could find. Kept it a few years, tried different ammo, etc, but it just wasn't any fun to shoot. No internet back then with all the good info either. When I transferred out west, I traded it in on a Remington .243. The .35 wasn't going to be much of an antelope gun. But, I sure grew to love those Marlins. Awesome gun to carry in the woods and fast to shoulder plus the cowboy lever action style I grew up with watching westerns. Just plain fun guns! I now own at least 8, all of them accurate including one 30-30 microgroove I re-barreled to a .458 SOCOM just for fun. My first major gunsmith project. Haven't shot it yet, the COVID has got in the way and the ammo has dried up. But, I will never have another .35 rem from this town, it might be the one I used to own!!!
Great story. I had an 1894 that just wouldn't shoot either. I'd like to know how that SOCOM conversion works out. My email address is at the top of my page.
@@TargetSuite I just got my second COVID shot, so in two weeks I will feel safe enough to venture out amongst other folks. I did score some 458 SOCOM ammo last year so I hope to give it a try soon.
As a teenager I owned a Marlin Model 70 that had micro grooved barrel. I was hitting gophers well past the capacity of .22LR where the hit didn't kill them but sure stung them. ;)
Awesome! Angry gophers no doubt!
Nice presentation, Sir.
Thanks Pat!
The complaint of the micro groove rifling is with cast lead bullets , you end up with leading problems if you push the bullet much over 1600 fps. With the Marlin Ballard rifling it works better with cast bullets even pushing them faster to the 1800 fps. That’s the real differences between them. So in truth both types are very accurate given the right types of bullets.
👍
Spot on
Yeah, there wasn't a lot of complaining about Micro-Groove until Cowboy Action Shooting became popular.
@@funkla65 not true first off the 30-30 started with lead bullets and both the 38-55 and 45-70 always had lead bullets. Micro groove came way after the Ballard rifling which had been used for a long time. Marlin 1894 ‘s in 45 Colt also had Ballard rifling because all of these cartridges were lead. It wasn’t until the 70’s that micro groove came out and in truth it still works with lead just fine as long as you don’t push the bullet to fast. This is because of mostly the increased twist rate. But with gas checks and hard cast bullets micro groove rifling does fine.
In my opinion. A good rifle should be able to shoot most ammunition reliable reloaded or commercial, just the point of impact may change a bit. Microgroove can be a bit finicky. Not bad just picky.
I have a Marlin 1895G in 450 Marlin and it shoots 1" groups all day long with my handloads. Considering the limited effective range of the cartridge, it is way better than required! Enjoy your videos!
I have a Marlin 1893 with a octagon 26 inch barrel in 30-30 an original iron sights Ballard rifling made in 1896 which made a trip to the Alaska an Yukon goldfields in 1898 that still shoots 1.5 inch groups my father purchased it from the original owner in the Early 1940s it was my dads deer rifle until 1956 when he bought a 336 Texan an handed the 1893 down to my older brother until 1964 when he bought 336 saddle ring Texan then I got it as my deer rifle it has accounted for a large pile of whitetails!!!! Now that’s Old Marlin quality!!!!!!
That's a great rifle with family history. Priceless!
Great video and all your other videos on the 35 Rem in the Marlin 336. They have resolved similar problems I have been having with mine that I bought on Gunbroker. It gotten very good with your info regarding this rifle. Thanks again, Great presentation of information.
Glad to help because those GB "gems" can be a challenge at times ;-) And thanks for the encouraging words!
@@TargetSuite a couple more tweeks and it'll be a coyote killer thanks again the info you presented is great. My local gunsmith was getting stumped with some of the issues especially the light primer strikes problem.
Hard cast lead works well in my 336/.35. Soft lead seems to just slide down the tube without turning leaving a layer of lead.
What I have found out about microgrove rifling is it's fine for jacketed bullets but not cast bullets...even the hardest cast. I stick with regular rifling!
Hi Gary. We'll see what I come up with. My results may duplicate your experience. Maybe not. I won't know until the shots are fired and the data reviewed. Stay tuned.
@@TargetSuite I used a Marlin 1894-s in 45 colt for Cowboy Action Shooting. My hand loads for my 45 colt Rugar Vaqueros and the Marlin. My hand loads were a two hundred grain hand cast lead flat nose bullet of hard lead. Load was, w-w large primer, 5.9 grains of Hodgdon HP 38 and a heavy crimp. Had no leading in the six guns or the Marlin...so I thought! After each match I cleaned my guns. Checked and loved them. After a couple of matches I noticed the Marlin was not shooting accurately, " Not as accurately as it first did", so I did a real good cleaning job on it and a detailed inspection. Everything look good till I used a bore light and wasn't able to see much of the microgrove rifling. IT took hours of scrubbing to get the lead out. Next month shot another match and the Marlin shot fine. Took it home and cleaned it up as normal. Checked the barrel which looked ok....so I thought! Then remembered I had bought a good bore light. On using the light I noticed some small smears of lead in some parts of the microgrove. So bore brushed again and again till all SIGNS of lead was gone. After several months of this I cleaned it up and took it to a gun Smith along with some of my reloads and had him check why it was leading so bad. A week or so later he called me and said the microgrove rifling just doesn't like lead bullets. I asked if my alloy was too soft and or powder charge to heavy or too light. He said everything was fine and he suspected the microgroveing itself as it did not like lead. Hope this helps. I still have the Marlin and it still shoots good with jacket bullets. I used a Winchester for the Cowboy Matches. The six guns and Winchester has never leaded... same load too.
@@garyfoltzer6618 I have never yet found a microgrove marlin that would shoot lead bullet's! a microgrove barrel is just a cheap way of making a barrel and normally only shoot copper bullets,, and they dont shoot them all that good!
I don’t know why all the Marlin hate. I get that Remington kind of messed em up there for a little while, I have a newer 1895 SBL that I bought last year and I can hit a 10 inch steel plate at 300 yards pretty consistently with it. Id honestly love to get another one but people are selling them for crackhead prices now on GunBroker, and for the kind of money they want I ended up ordering a shiloh.
Sweet! I'm holding out for the new Marlins manufactured under Ruger ownership, to come out later this year. I'm pretty pumped about what is in store for us Marlin fans.
@@TargetSuite oh yeah for sure. I cant wait to see what they put out
Some gun stores are being ridiculous on marlin prices too. I had a local gun store that had a 1895sbl with a tag for $999 which I was ready to purchase. He told me no because he was holding them till Christmas because he can get 3 times as much on gun broker. Pissed me off. I hope he hasn’t sold them but I’m sure some idiot paid the price he wanted
Yeahs its insane, i thought about selling my sbl, but then I realized i wouldnt be helping the situation by doing so
Love my 35 kick it's dead on every shot haven't missed a dear in 30+ years!!! A little hint use a small shag rug to hold your spent Shell's
Great idea about the carpet. Thanks!
My 336 Marlin and 35 Remington was a real tack driver, but sadly it had the infamous marlin jam, and I didn’t know how to fix it back when I was a teenager
Someone is probably loving that tack driver these days, along with its replaced or repaired carrier😉 Btw, I've really enjoyed your videos busting those 5 gallon blocks of ice. Great stuff!
I enjoy both of you guys videos!
My Marlin 336 in 30-30 with micro groove rifling is really accurate.
That's awesome. I'm hearing lots of testimonies like yours.
One factor you didn't talk about was how a barrel's accuracy can change as it heats up and the bore diameter increases. It seems to me that this might be even more affected with microgroove rifling than with deeper rifling. An interesting experiment might be to run 5 rounds through the gun at one target, then run 20 rounds through it immediately after, and finally another 5 rounds on a second target, all using the same ammunition, and compare the groups between a cold barrel and a hot barrel.
Great stuff to think about in a future vid. Thanks!
Microgroove rifling bad? Somebody should have told my old Glenfield 30A. Damned thing is a tack driver.
My marlin .30-.30 336c that my dad bought for me when I was 12 for $70 ...I'm now 57 shot Remington core locks very accurately. I shot the bullseye out at 75 yards with open sights at 12.
Oh, you have to love those young eyes. I hope you still have that rifle!
@@TargetSuite yes I sure we do!
I have several Marlin's and love them.
I just bought a Marlin in .35 Rem. It was made in 1975. I mounted a vintage 4X Redfield Wideview on it with see-thru rings. Can't wait to shoot it.
Awesome! Sounds like a winner. Good luck!
I have never seen consistency go up when velocity went up. In any caliber. Maybe just my experience
Some of that has to do with powder choice. Some powder/cartridge combinations work best at higher pressures. But with this .35 Remington, and ACC 2015 powder, that doesn't seem to be the case.
@@TargetSuite In my limited experience I find I get better groups with 38 spcl over 357 magnum, 170 grain 30.30 over 150 grain, etc. And it is not just because of recoil. I am talking offhand AND benching it. I realize there is a wide variety of powders and loads, and different calibers will act differently, but that is my experience. As long is the range is not TOO far away, even lobbing them in is better than flatter shooting hotter rounds. Even with my muzzle loader (50 Cal) I get great accuracy with as low as 65 grains of FFG. 110 grains has it all over the place. (and I have put down a few deer, and won a few local shoots with the low charge)
I agree.
Thanks George. That answers my crimping question. Both my 357 (1894) and the 444 (1895) are from the early 80's with microgroove. The new 44 and 45-70 are the latest rifling. I had to by a crimping tool for both the 444 and 45-70 as the Lee dies don't come with one, which came as a surprise to me. Going to try both with the new reloads later today. Jealous of your weather. I'm driving up towards the Whistler Ski Resort to do my shooting and if it isn't snowing, it's raining cats and dogs.
Do you shoot mostly jacketed bullets in your .357 and 444 Marlin?
@@TargetSuite For the most part, yes. I tested my reloads today and was very happy with the results. Although I discovered that I need to seat the Hornady XTP's a little deeper for the 45-70. Maybe a millimeter too long so I just shot them one at a time. All in all a good day that started with heavy rain and ended with sunshine and I had the range all to myself.
@@TargetSuite So, here's a question. My 444 casings are 2.05 inches long after one firing and even the new unfired casings are 2.06. The Lyman book says they should 2.14". What's up with that?
What surprised me is the relatively big difference in V0 speed between the Remington shots, but #1 and #2 ended up touching and the 3 shot group is excellent.
I'm not sure what this means, but V0 on the LabRadar is a calculated or interpolated number. It really receives the first dopler signal at about 6 feet and then calculates what it likely was at the muzzle. It's probably pretty close, but regardless, I did notice some of the "tightest" groups had pretty extreme spread.
@@TargetSuite Ah, I'm not familiar with the LabRadar myself so I didn't know the starting velocity was calculated. Even so, the numbers show quite a large extreme spread, and as you say the groups were still (relatively) good. Nice gun, good shooting, fantastic range. Enjoy and treasure your outings there, and thanks for sharing them! (You have one additional new sub now :)
Great video, great shooting, and great gun!
Thanks! Amen on the gun part ;-)
I know a guy with a 1970 anniversery mod. .444 that shoots an inch with 265 gr. Hornady's, I elk hunt with him and it sure did the job on two different elk. I was amazed at how well that rifle shoots!
And a beautiful rifle that is. I'd love to have that anniversary model myself.
Hey George, l wish I knew more about handloads and reloading, but thanks to you I'm leaning. Been shooting for a long time but never got into the reloading. No waiting for things to settle down some. And George being from Tennessee I like that name "BIG ORANGE" for the labradar. LoL. GO BIG ORANGE
Yep I can understand that, but I thought it was more burnt orange if you get my drift 😉
@@TargetSuite yes Sir I think I do know what ya mean 😂
Interesting results. I have owned several Marlin lever guns. Mostly 45/70's. They all have been accurate rifles much more so than the writers in slick magazines give them credit for. Which leaves me to think a lot of their shooting is done with a typewriter or keyboard.
It has also been my experience that faster loads such as the Hornady shoot much higher and tend to get off the paper easily. At least in the lever guns I have shot that type ammo in. Somewhere in my shooting book collection I have a book where the gunsmith/writer describes the subMOA accuracy he got in a lever Marlin 30/30 and how easy it achieved this. A good tight lever gun is very capable.
Yes, They are very capable. And I wish I had more of that Hornady ammo to retest, but in today's environment, it's just hard to come by.
I recall that you can't exceed a certain velocity with micro-groove rifling . I can't remember if it's 1600 or 1800fps, but it think the bullet stops engaging the rifling and starts sliding over it, if you will, when that velocity is exceeded. I think if you look at your chrono data vs. group size, it will correlate. I thing I read that in the 49th edition in the text that gives history on the caliber.
I have heard that MG rifling is sensitive to velocity, but I don't think that is true, unless your bullets are undersized. But as I get more "intimate" with this 336 I'll keep an eye out for that. Thanks!
@@TargetSuite That's been a concern for cast lead boolits, and has some validity. Jacketed ones are fine, regardless.
You didn't catch it but you had two one hole shots, maybe more. But when you shot the max power loads the first time you had a one holer, which was your second one holer. Signed, Doug.
Thanks Doug. I did see one pair go into one hole.
Looking forward to the cast bullet results because that is where the real question of Microgroove rifling accuracy lies. I believe you'll find it works just fine at black powder velocities (
I'll definitely be using hard cast bullets, some with gas checks for that test. Black powder velocities just wouldn't interest many 336 .35 Remington fans.
As for the hornady lever Evolution ammo , both my marlins shoot it extremely well, I have a thirty thirty that shoots a inch at 100, and a 444 that shoots 1.25 inch groups at a hundred, my thirty five is a mossberg lever gun.
The .444 MicroGroove is awesome! Tack hammer at 75 yards!
Tack sledge hammer!
They will shoot. Try the Speer 180gr. F.N. With IMR 3031. Faster and flatter shooting than the 200's and those bullets are awesome on whitetail. Super accurate too!
I bought a Box just for that purpose. Thanks!
Hello, I do have a marlin 336 with a four power scope, and it is micro grooved. Occasionally, I do shoot hand cast bullets that are extra hard Lino type lead and I do Gas check them. I don’t drive them faster than 2200 ft./s as that is all one should expect from cast bullets. I find that I am quite capable of keeping them in the x-ring at 100 yards. 24 years ago I invested in 330 pounds of printers lead and I have yet to shoot 100 pounds of it😅
Thanks Ralph, I like cast bullets also. I've been leary of micro groove rifles, but maybe I've been to fussy.
The Hornady line of ammo has a reputation for running hot and near maximum. It is thought that maximum loads tend to be most accurate and consistent and my own reloading has borne that out. Individual rifles may vary from that however. It's why you test your loads. The plastic tip on the Hornady Lever Revolution may be a factor as well. I always tested on a large sheet to catch any off target loads.
Yep, I should have had a larger backing to catch those off target shots. That was a painful oversight!
I run the Hornady 160gr revlowevolow,,,liversolution,,, whatever to frig they call em in a “56” Win94 .30 30 loves them. Did well w/the Remington 150gr also. So far the “54” 336 prefers the Remington 150gr. A late model Mini14 does real well (inside 3”) with the Federal Fusion 62gr. It’s getting harder and harder to beat factory ammo.
Haha! I think I said it three or four different ways! Factory ammo has gotten hard to beat. It's just harder to find these days than reloading components (except for primers of course).
@@TargetSuite that’s exactly what my son says. He reloads 9mm.
Thanks! Would love to see more about reloading with cast bullets. Beautiful rifle
Thanks John. I plan to share details of the cast bullet project for this rifle. Stay tuned, as they say.
Suggestion: Lay a towel down onto the bench. As long as it's not laid too flat, it'll stop the empties from rolling off the bench. A cardboard box placed where the empties land works just as well. BT,DT ( Been There, Done That ) ...
Great idea! Thanks!
Growing up I had many a 22 rifle but I always keep coming back to the marlin model 60 because everyone I have ever had has shot very well.....And fast forward to today the only 22 rifle I have left in my arsenal is a 2001 stainless Marlin model 60 22" barrel with some upgrades (Stock,barrel crown,scope & custom trigger)and it is one very accurate rifle.
Great testimony about the the Marlin Model 60! Thanks!
I have a 795 Appleseed, and I just shot Rifleman this summer! I'm just over 40, but it is still awesome to attend a clinic like Project Appleseed. I wish they had the 795 with a longer barrel, because it shot great. At 25 meters, I can make a quarter sized hole with 10 rounds. CCI SV, and Aguila Super Extra CPRN are what it likes best. Micro Groove ran great! I put a Boyd's Spike Camp on it, and it got better. I'm thinking that a good target crown should be next. What trigger do you have?
Great video friend! Your also showing how a person needs to learn their firearm. The next marlin made after this one may perform differently. Thanks for sharing!
God bless all here.
Yes! I see men and women who only fire a few shots a year and I understand different people have different likes and time constraints. But I always think how much more they could enjoy the shooting sports if they would, as you said, learn their firearms. Thanks! And God bless you!
Excellent work. Hornady shoots high in my Win 94 too but groups well.
I'm sure you thanked your wife and son lots for that 336, what a nice shooter. I think you found your hog medicine.
Thanks! And I did thank them as well . . . several times. And yes, for daytime hog and deer work, this will be my go-to rifle. I hope to generate a few tales with it ;-)
My Marlin 336SC dates back to '52 which is slightly before the advent of Microgroove. It is so accurate that that Microgroove can not be much of an improvement over it. However, I deduce that Microgroove must have something going for it for Marlin to have been using it for such a long time.
Hi Mark. Micro-groove rifling was implemented to make manufacturing faster. And it does yield a very smooth rifled barrel. But it's not really better in any other way. And for cast bullets to perform well, they have to be sized appropriately. I'll cover more of that in the next installment.
Entertaining and informative George. Thanks.
Thanks! I appreciate that!
Sorry I forgot to say thank you in my post for your time to make this very informative video.
You are welcome! It's a labor of love as they say.
From my research amd experience the micro Grove has the same problem as large pistol bore lever guns like 44mag with slow twist. They work ok on factory loads but as soon as you increase bullet weight or charge the they go down hill
My 1977 444S has the microgrove and it does pretty well with the Remington 444 Core-Lokt 240 grain soft point bullets. It does have it's range limits. It performs nominal on deer sized game at 100 yards or less, performance gets real good at 75 yards or under. When they introduced the Hornady LeveRevolution 444 Marlin in 265 Grain, I was extremely excited. Unfortunately, that microgrove barrel doesn't like them at all. While I could consistently hit paper targets at bulleyes 100 yards with the soft points, I was lucky if I could hit the long side of a barn with the LeveRevolution ammo. All my shooting was factory ammo for this caliber/rifle combination. I've heard from fellow 444 owners, that the new non-microgroved rifles with the slower 1:20 inch twist will handle the heavier 265 grain LeveRevolution ammo with excellent accuracy. But I'll hang onto my rifle.
I too have had spotty success with the LevRev ammo. Maybe it is because of the MG rifling. Hmm!🤔
When Hornady came out with then LE ammo, I tried some in my 444 with micro-groove. A rifle that regularly shot 1.5 in groups with a Williams peep sight, grouped the LE at minute of dinner plate. I shot both boxes I purchased, some 3 rd groups, some 5 rd groups, no difference. I contacted Hornady, and the e-mail I received in reply stated that micro groove rifling would be less accurate than Ballard style. Asked me to submit my receipt for the ammo, and they graciously refunded my cost. My Cowboy LTD in 45-70 loves the LE ammo. It groups under 1.5 inch with peep sight regulary. Even my wife can shoot tight groups, despit the recoil
I'm still trying to figure out where people learned that there was a long e in the word lever?
Considering the engineering behind it, I would expect it to be more durable and more accurate in almost every situation.
A 1-inch group out of any levergun, is superb accuracy.
Back off the shoulder setback a little bit. If you can get that within just a few thou of the actual shoulder, the tighter you make that specific setting, the less you're going to get inconsistencies between shot to shot at least as far as the orientation in the chamber goes.
Clean that rifle very well. Spray some dry Teflon Lube don't it, shoot about 5 rounds, do that application a second time, and then do an accuracy test.
Folks in many parts of the country use the long E. That's how I said it up until I started youtube. I got beat up in the comments so bad I learned to say "leh-ver"😀
That’s how they pronounce it in the South
My 3030 Marlin makes very consistent shots. With a 32X scope (Yes, 32 power target scope) and Caldwell's rifle rest, I put the cross hairs on a 1/8" bullseye at 100 meters. Usually achieving < one inch groups with what ever is on sale ammunition. I hunt with a 2-7X Bushnell scope.
My marlin 30/30 had no issue putting 3 bullets in a 50cent size circle at 100 yards that was a 170gr flat-nose. I bought that rifle 40plus years ago it did not drop the deer the way my 243 does so it stayed out of the woods more then it should have. I have a friend his favorite is win 94 in 30/30 still does a lot of open sight hunting but he said I should use 150gr round nose. I just need to get back into shooting, but until said time love the videos
Hey George, excellent video. I am not shocked at those group sizes. Every 336 I've ever owned (man that sounds bad doesn't it lol) has shot just as well. I would have to say that the 336XLR I presently own is even better. What a joy it is to cycle an old Marlin Lever action. It just makes that perfect smooth sound of worn metal against metal. What a treasure you have there. Outstanding !!
Thanks Max. Sounds like you still have a great one in that XLR! And yes, the old guns define SMOOTH :-)
I used to own a Marlin 336 in 30-30 that had the Microgroove rifling. It was capable of MOA accuracy at 100 yards. Using a 150 gr Sierra flatnose pushed by IMR 3031 powder produced the most consistent accuracy. Consult a loading manual for charge weight and primer. In my opinion I couldn't improve on that, so that was the load I always stuck with.
I'm with you. Once a good load is "found" there is no need to chase the golden fleece.
I have a Marlin 336 in 44 magnum . Got it as a Christmas gift in the 1970s. It out shoots my Ballard rifled Marlin 1894 any day.
I have a JR 1895 45-70, with micro groove rifling. I shot a group with 400gr. bullets that was 3/4". I then shot another group with 350 gr. bullets - also 3/4" All six shots together went into 1 1/4. I am impressed with this rifle!
Awesome. The whole point of the series was to show that there is nothing wrong with micro Groove rifling. And your experience further validates it.
@@TargetSuite Yes. I am enjoying this rifle a lot. It was given(!) to me by a friend, Including the Leupold scope, and handloads he worked up. It was his handloads that shot the groups 51.5 gr. of 3031 for the 400 gr. bullets, and 53 gr. of 3031 for the 350 gr. bullets. I have taken it hunting, and got a nice 4 point mule deer. Been chasing elk around too, with no luck there.
I am fooling around with some lead bullets too, so I find your experiences in this line very interesting.
Morning George, enjoy watching some old iron being used as intended. The 35 just never got the respect it deserves. Looking forward to more videos on this old gal as she looks to be a shooter.
Yep, I was surprised, and pleased, at those groups! So the scope is staying on this one, and I'll be thinking of more projects that require "her" participation😉
The marlin 336cs in .35 I have that was made in 1986 shoots like a dream and all I have shot is been 200gr factory ammo
Thanks, a need to know and proving Maximum Loads. Always not the best load. Mid range or a idle group well usually. I do like the Micro Grove 👌 👍👍
Great input. Thanks!
Had a Marlin 44 magnum with Micro Grove rifling. Did well with jacketed bullets, but was abysmal with factory cast bullets in my reloads. At the time, the factory offered free replacement for any dissatisfied with MG barrels performance with standard rifleed barrels. I had mine replaced. Substantial improvement in accuracy noted.
Interesting. I never knew Marlin had a swap out offer. I would probably have taken them up on that as well.
I have a friend waaaay Back in high school who had a Marlin 357 mag micro groove.. He could take a deers cap off or direct eyeball shot at 100yards every single time. It was scary accurate.
Thanks for that. Yes they can be very accurate.
(looks left) (looks right) Boy some PETA chump is going to be triggered tonight. I got a friend lives close by he hunts with 22mag and gets his every year. Not that i personally condone such things but long as he dont loose sleep over it i wont cause them deers keep f'n up peoples cars and eating all the beans n corn someone gotta regulate that population. People cry about coyote, bears, and bobcats but not enough crying about deer and them insurance company never writing a check big enough to replace the car ya lost go from driving a 50k nice car with 60K miles on it that ya bought new and 6 deer later you buying a 4-5K car so janky you turn a corner and the glove box pop open.
Thank you for measuring your groups to a two place decimal,not three place which is impossible to justify when groups are just one hole. Good definition of accuracy v.s. precision!
Thanks!
Why is the definition of *precision* different in shooting vs any other endeavor?
Math and EVERY other science, Accuracy = how close to target / goal / desired attainment / Precision = how many decimal places used to measure or describe the data ... ????
You seem to be using *precision* when you seem to mean consistency or something else ...???
Thoughts ???
That old Marline sure loves that Remington ammo...which has good velocity too. With cast bullets in that rifling I'd guess you'll need a very hard alloy or gas checks to avoid stripping in the rifling if driven hard..
Modern shooter are often surprised at how accurate a good lever rifle can be.... within the ballistic capabilities of their rounds they are more than accurate enough....
I posted the cast bullet version of this video today. Check it out.
about 15 years ago I took my childhood remington 512 .22LR with weaver B4 scope to the local 100 yard range. loaded it with 11 rounds and put all 11 in a group the size of a Quarter. the big gun guys were amazed and said great shooting. My winchester super X ammo was from 1957. I said not bad for an old may who has not shot this gun for over 20 years. some old guns will surprise people.
I had a Winchester model 52 target rifle manufactured in 1919 with a Unertl exterior adjustment scope. Using CCI green tag ammunition it would reliably shoot one inch 10 shot groups at 100 yards.
@NebukedNezzer My first rifle was a Remington 510 Targetmaster. It shot great. I've been buying all of my grandkids Remington 510s when they reach about 9 years old. But I've been thinking about getting my grandson and old 512. I saw one on GB the other day. It looked sweet!
Overpowering the rifling is a thing. I've seen some high speed film of bullets wobbling because they came out of the barrel too hot for the rifling to spin them. I believe micro-grooves are more prone to this phenomena than deeper groves.
It's particularly true in Micro-Groove barrels because the grooves are so shallow. So sizing cast bullets correctly is crucial to good performance.
@@TargetSuite I have experienced this myself, when loading too hot and ended up with tumbling bullets.
you must put in a lot of time producing your videos, we appreciate it.
I appreciate that!