Regarding Tilda and Sobeck’s relationship, Tilda tells you they were together if you talk to her in the base before meeting at the rendezvous site. She says they broke up because Tilda wanted more while Sobeck wanted less/more independence. So her line at the end of loving Elisabet so much was in line with that previous, admittedly missable, conversation.
@@KeepingItFishy I just finished my playthrough and it clocked in at 90 hours. Most of them spent 25-35 hours to beat the game. No way they can't truly understand the game without 50-70 hours of playtime.
46:20 About the Tilda and Elizabet relationship. Them being lovers doesn’t necessarily come out of the blue, because there is dialogue you can have with Tilda at the base that expands upon her relationship with Liz. It’s a shame that this is only optional though, because it makes her comments at the end of the game make much more sense.
So many people seem to have completely missed or purposely ignored the companion talks you can have back at base. I must have spent hours going through these conversations. Those who ignored it all really missed out.
@@alternatelevi2099 agreed. Really enjoyed how each time you went back to the base each character had unique dialogue about how they’re training is going, how they’re getting used to their focuses, and how they’re getting along with the other companions. Not to mention there’s a few side quests you can miss if you don’t have these conversations.
Yeah that’s frustrating. I will say there is a golden path audio file as well where after aloy hears it she says “this sounded personal” but I forgot about that.
Yeah, it’s the first thing you ever hear of her, before you even know the zeniths are alive. Audio log makes it pretty clear they had a relationship of some kind.
Exactly. They never interacted with the companions in base after each mission , each companion missions to learn about them more , get more attached . Feel like they are your friends . A game gives you Mass effect styles companions and you do not engage with them and then blame the game for not holding your hands with every details when those were present there . Absolutely insane .
I swear, we played two entirely different games lol Aloy opens up way more and even comes to the realization herself on how important Rost really was to her. And how she shouldn't hold herself to Elisabet's standards. Especially seeing how Beta was raised and having that lack of connection to any one but Tilda (even that was limited). Also, thank you Janet for bringing up that point about Tilda's relationship with both Beta and Aloy! It also left me feeling gross and uneasy about what she was attempting to do.
That's because they all completed the game in 30/40hrs and missed 75% of the game. I've just finished at 110 hours, 82% completion and 96% trophies just missing winning one more machine strike game and missing one hunters trial. I'd love to see bless and janets map, completion stat.
@@sprinter1boy this is the first game where I would love to get 100% completed. Unfortunately I missed a scan on a key machine during the final mission so that messed that trophy up. I get that they were main lining the story and that's completely fine. They have a lot on the go with review season. But you do miss little details when you don't get to take your time with the game and explore those options.
@@thenerdynorth I missed it too, you can get it in the arena chsllanges and scan the "corrupter" it's during the 2nd arena challenge on expert (put it on story mode for that one lol)
@@sprinter1boy Good to know what to look forward to! Still trying to get to the Slitherfang for the first round in the arena. I'm missing the alpha prime machine that I thought I had scanned but must have gotten interrupted during the fight. Unfortunately I don't think you can get back to the Zenith camp to try and find it again.
@@thenerdynorth you'll be good to go in the arena challanges to scan it 😊 I can't believe the KFG team played the game in less than 40hrs ? I was at like 16% completion at 40hours gone. Listening to there comments on the game I believe they shouldn't be reviewing the game. Some of there complaints are simply changing things in settings and they must have missed so much story? There is 10 hour plus just in dialogue, reading things, exploring . The only things I didn't do was 2 black boxes, 2 drones,2 vista locations, jus tneed one more win at machine strike and need to 3 challenges in hunters trial but sold the bow I need and can't find it again lol. I need the shock bow if you know where that is and I can't remember which merchant or other character I sold it too 😔 Have fun
Yeah I did not talk to her before but I also think that’s sort of a narrative flaw if it doesn’t hit as much without it. Life is strange true colors had similar story issues with missable info.
@@Gameonysus Narrative flaw, yes. However, I felt that a lot of the conversation in this cast was said in the context of "it came out of nowhere and wasn't earned" which isn't entirely fair - provided you dove into all the extra dialogue bits. If you did, the story is much tighter and more well earned than you would think otherwise.
Did you guys ever go in to Aloy's room and talk to the trinkets? She has her own private conversations with Rost's spear or Elisabet's necklace. Aloy even has conversations with Varl about Rost.
I think that's the problem. It's understandable that as reviewers they didn't have time to pour 100 hours into the game, but it's like they have no cognisance of the fact that maybe if something didn't make sense, came out of nowhere, or felt cheap, maybe just maybe it's because you didn't actually get the full story because of the compressed timeline of your gameplay. This game, for better or worse, rewards you for taking your time with the world, the story isn't just a blockbuster film all revealed in cinematics, there's probably well over half the story buried in character dialogue interactions and things found out in the world.
@@chrisdpratt completely agree with your statement. And this game deserves to be delved in to and have all of the conversations listened to. I re-started the game this weekend and trying new things and actually getting rewarded with different interactions with the companions. I hope they can go back and really live in the world like you're supposed to. Even the interactions with the side quests were so well done and gives Aloy so much more personality than what they've seen. Those side quests alone make this game worth playing and I think there was just one NPC I didn't care for out of all the ones you interact with. Let alone loving each companion you have and just wanting more with them.
Man all of these “Suddenly the relationship turned” complaints stem from not talking to the characters more often. This game, maybe to its fault requires you to read the logs and from time to time go back to the base to talk to your companions. The Beta relationship developed slowly and incrementally over time until they had their fight, talked it out a few times until Aloy was able to look past her own prejudice and find some understanding for Betas situation. That wasn’t sudden AT ALL. But all of that was easily missable if you somewhat rushed through the game.
@@boochtron the reading was just necessary for context, the important one she read out loud. But talking to the companions and listening to her monologues in her room are important.
I was really looking forward to this spoilercast, but man did it miss the mark. I understand it's "review season" and you all have games falling out your butts, but it was obvious that you all ran through this game and seemed to pay little to no attention to your companions. Erand telling the story of his sister and Avad's escape to Aloy over a beer was fan-tas-tic! And I don't know how many people found it, but the secret memorial overlooking the ocean/ San Francisco was amazing. I love Kinda Funny and all it's content, and felt kinda bad that I wasn't enjoying this spoilercast, until I hopped in the comments and saw similar opinions. Maybe there will be more time to dive into it when y'all do the Forbidden West 2025 review. I do agree with the jenky movement at times, and weird clipping stuff like getting stuck inside a thunderjaw and having to reload a save to get out. And lastly, I can't count the amount of times I said aloud "shut up, Aloy!" because she would tell you how to solve everything before you even get a chance to think about it. It made me feel like I wasn't solving anything and was just doing what Aloy tells me instead. Anyway, no love lost, Kinda Funny is still the best there is. Thanks for taking the time to give your opinions. -PS, can we make it a late 2022 resolution to stop saying "I adored this game" lol.
It's just start it will be misunderstood and overlooked a lot at the end of the year. I love this game and it is my game of the generation, I hope that the third comes really soon.
Absolutely. Completely agree with you . I spent so many quality.oments with my companions and cared far more about them than I did in HZD . All of it will be missed if you don't regularly chat with them in the base . Or the characters even in open world . You can talk with them even after mission completion to get new updates . You can't enjoy something if you are not taking it properly . Don't drink milk with a spoon. Pour it in glass and take a nice sip .
It's easy to miss, but you can totally have a conversation with Tilda about her relationship with Elisabet. She even goes into why they broke up, you have to talk to her before heading off to the final island though! (It's still a bit out of nowhere and sounds like it was more of a fling, but guess 1,000 years can warp memories??)
I feel like there is more elaboration on Alloy's feelings if you went back and talked to Varl all the time, they talk about rost, sisters, etc. (same with Erend)
This is why I hate when people rush through open world games. You guys missed so much story development. There was so much relationship dialogue you missed. 😞
Sounds like you guys rushed through the game and missed conversations at the base n side missions n content that gives more context to everything n everyone.
I really feel like Barrett came in with preconcieved notions of Horizon and then just looked for more issues to back up his intial ideas, rather than stepping back and re-evaluating. Because most of his points are solved by just playing the game more, listening to the characters and story, or reading the logs.
I thought Aloy’s story was incredibly meaningful. She grows beyond trying to carry the weight of the world’s problems by herself, to not being afraid to ask others for help. I can relate to that in both my personal and professional life.
I also felt she changed from caring about people just because they're part of the world she's trying to save to actually caring about people on an individual level. It was kind of the lesson Rost tried to teach her in Zero Dawn taken to its natural conclusion. Sure, she had pre-existing relationships with Varl and Erend, but they became much deeper and personal.
@@chrisdpratt I loved both sequences of being reunited with Varl and Erend. Having them be involved made me so happy and I wanted more out of their companionship. With everyone really. I would have loved to see Erend and Kotallo go into a cauldron with Aloy like Zo and Varl did. Or getting a more obvious side story with Erend. It took me until almost the end of the game and seeing it on Tumblr that he got his own side missions from the rebel outposts missions. I was going to save those until after the game was done and had to do a U-turn to go back haha I see where they are going with the companions though and I can't wait until a DLC and third game for them to expand on it.
What a weird take by Janet with Varl being "another black character dying" in a game with plenty of other black characters. I personally didn't love it because the game moved on to Tilda right away which undercuts his death, but it makes sense for the closest character to Aloy to die and illicit an emotional response. Erend would not have worked at all, because he is just bland and wouldn't leave any impact. And I just don't share any of Barretts sentiments on anything it seems, which is fine. He makes some good points, but it just seems like he rushed through the game. A lot of optional content resolves some of his issues, e.g. Tilda and Elisabet being together is explained in optional dialogue in the base, Aloy's opening up is shown throughout some side quests as well and the open world design being a lot more detailed than the typical Ubisoft game. Going back to some places and talking to "finished" quest givers and NPCs can give you a second quest/direct continuation that you might miss otherwise or some towns changing thanks to you contribution in side quests.
Varl's death seemed very abrupt and turned into an afterthought way too quickly, was totally just unimpactful in my opinion and moved on way too quickly. Seemed weird and unnecessary.
Also I don’t even feel this fits into the trope they are talking about. First multiple characters of note die at the Embassy in the first part of the game that aren’t black, and this isn’t even the first part of this story. It’s the second game. He dies like 80+ hours into the overall storyline. This isn’t the old “horror movie where the black guy dies first” trope. There’s also so many strong POC characters in this world.
Yea when he died, him being black didn't even cross my mind. People bringing up skin color and trying to connect dots that aren't there is the reason so-called "racism" is still lingering around IMO.
Zo and Kotalla are everything. also I adored the sidequests in this game, really highlighted a sense of growth from aloy and connecting with characters for me. Slight spoilers below * * * Seeing the beginning shots of this game from Aloy being alone in her search to then go being with a group demonstrated (not through the narrative as much as I would've liked) environmental storytelling - by the end, she had a group of people she finds to really care for and want to protect and choosing not to go with Sylias - making her different from Elizabeth by the end of the game. can't wait to plat. this
@@LEdoubleX Yeah I completed it at around 70 hours as well and I didn’t even complete most of the side quests, just a few here and there. It’s definitely the kind of game that’s more enjoyable when you take your time and really get to know the world/characters.
@@mr88nyc I didnt complete most of the sidequests either but that's because I wanna save them for new game plus on ultra hard. That's when I'll really take my time in upgrading weapons, hunting, and doing the sidequests/activities. Are you going to comeback to the game later?
@@LEdoubleX Yeah, I’ve just been doing some side quests on my completed save. Haven’t started New Game plus yet. I’m big fan of Guerrilla’s work, especially with Horizon. For whatever reason I really identify with the main character in these games.
Did these three ever talk to the companions multiple times once you got to the base? While not perfect, I think that's where Aloy's character growth shows from "I need to do this alone" to more of a "I can't do this without you". Now, should this have been made unmissable by being on the golden path? Yes. But that doesn't mean it wasn't there. I don't think it's as one-note as the crew here think.
I was excited to listen this podcast and then I read the comments about how you guys basically B lined the main story and completely skipped all of the loyalty missions w companions + the conversations at the base…wow y’all basically missed half the game just by doing that, no wonder you thought it wasn’t great 🙃
like i kinda also feel you could skip all the side mission including loyalty mission. Just pay attention to main plot, golden pass audiolog (not text log), and all the base conversation. That should be enough. They don't give the respect GG deserves. if this was made by bioware, it would be treated the differently.
Prefectly said, they whine fucking to much of a goty game! Yes some parys could have been better, but watching this even with remembering there review, they feel like they hate it more. They sould shut the fuck up of this extreme complaining!!!
Yep, the same game that everyone gave a 5/5 to outside of Andy/Barrett? They must have really hated it! I did everything in the game and I agree with some of their criticisms.
I got the plat and finished the game this morning (I did all the side stuff required for the plat as I played and got the plat at 70 hours as I finished the story) and di every side mission and errand and zi gotta say, I am so much higher in this game then anyone I have heard so far. This was a masterpiece to me. Truly ex exceptional game and perhaps my favorite open world of all time. Only criticism I absolutely agree with is the lack of a Faro fight at the end of that mission in the tomb but other than that I love all the side characters (Varl and Alva especially) I actually really like the off brand Mario Kart gauntlets, strike is surprisingly engaging, every side mission actually affects the world and ppl in it and I actually like Aloy as well, what Ashley Burch does as 3 different versions of the same character is absolutely amazing and she deserves all the awards. And despite flying mounts being spoiled for me what a moment that was. My personal favorite moment has to be raising up from that cauldron on top of the tallneck though. Truly exceptional game, I think the 3rd best first party game after GoW and Tlou
Did you guys not talk to the companion characters throughout, or exhaust all the options when talking? Because seemingly most of the issues raised are addressed from talking to them. Also, Aloy is a character that for 19 years had no other conversations or relationships with people other than Rost. So the fact she's distant and feels like she has to do it alone, stay focussed is built from her upbringing. Especially when she feels like many others can't understand what needs to be done due to their lack of knowledge, but also their lack of desire to act. Personally, I think her character is extremely well written. I like that she isn't the "Really social, that's universally great character", she's just a few steps off Sylen's. She avoids talking about anything emotional because she feels like it makes her weaker by focussing on the negative. Also, Nemesis is hinted at throughout... you guys need to pay attention more. It just wasn't explicitly said until the end.
Just wanna point out Aloy straight up hated the Nora and their culture for abandoning her. In the Redmaw quest, she refers to herself as 'Aloy despite the Nora.' She didn't want to be a part of the tribe, she wanted to know why she was cast out. Her primary motivation for investigating the ruins was to learn who her mother was. She has a severe mommy complex due to abandonment and the cultural expectations of mother hood for the Nora.
Yep completely disagree with Barret as I knew I would. Love this game, for both its gameplay and story and the open world elements like the changed Tallnecks. Really like Aloy and have since the first she's really likeable to me and understandable as a person with her background.
I get the complaints that are brought up about the story, but literally every single one is resolved if you listen to the optional dialogue. But again not everyone is going to do that
I don't know if I consider it a troupe.... that usually applies when you have a horror film and they have one black character. And they kill him off. This you have multiple black characters that didn't die. I hate when you can't kill off people because they're gay or black. Death is a powerful motivator. I remember people complaining about this particular show because a gay character was a terrorist. Gay people were upset, even though the character was the most popular character on the show. You're actually taking away powerful characters and moments from black people.
Exactly. I don’t see it as a trope for 3 reasons. First, Varl was already an established character. Forbidden West isn’t his first game since he was in Zero Dawn. He’s not a character that shows up & gets killed in the same game. Second, he’s the only other Nora in the game besides Aloy. Because of this, his death is more impactful because he & Aloy have a history, especially when Aloy helped Varl avenge his sister’s death. Third, he went out like a hero protecting Beta. He got an honorable death, not a terrible one.
@@Phanthief95 It's something I didn't even think about until they brought it up. And i'm black. It feels like they're making an issue out of nothing. I don't think any other character would have been as impactful with there death as Varl.
@RevedUpTrev I feel more offended about people saying you can't kill off characters because they're black. On one hand she said it was a powerful death. Then she's saying it's a trope.
@@wkadalie Especially when Varl established himself as the heart of the group. He was able to curtail some of Aloy & Erend’s worse tendencies, he developed a flirtatious relationship with Zo, & he was the first person that Beta opened up to.
This man said Beta is a type B personality 🤦🏻♀️. She was isolated and only made to be used as an item, no interaction at all. How did you expect her to act like? This spoilercast was pretty bad and barely went through the story beat by beat. The Barret guy you could tell beelined everything and him blaming the gameplay for being bad at the game…
It's kind of funny how wrong everyone is about basically every story aspect in this. I think maybe it's actually highly important to take your time with this game, and as reviewers, you all just powered through it. Literally everything is explained and built up. Varl's character development through the arc of the story made his death not trope at all. It was deeply painful not just to Aloy and Zo but for the team as a whole. He was like the chaplain for a squad of soldiers. You guys just really missed everything, and all the complaints are so hollow to those of us who actually gave the story due time.
If I hear a reviewer say that Aloy is "dull, cold and had no development" I just turn it off because clearly they didn't play the game at all. Aloy is a complex character who is evolving throughout the entire game. Even when the credits rolled and you are left to explore, she is still given the opportunity to grow and trust in her companions which she didn't have before. Everyone wants a "cut and paste" protagonist who has all of this figured out and now you as the player just have to choose whether or not you want that character to be an a-hole or a "good guy". There is nothing wrong with Aloy being Lawfully good (I'd argue that she's chaotic good) and has that sense of right and wrong in this world.
@@thenerdynorth couldn't agree more. Aloy developed dramatically over the course of the story. I just saw someone complain on Reddit that Aloy doesn't change at all, and I was wondering what game they were playing, because it sure as heck wasn't Forbidden West.
@@chrisdpratt I had to stop watching someone's playthrough because they were main lining the game too and they weren't listening to all of the conversation options with the companions or refusing to do certain quests that gives you the best gear. I know RUclips isn't the best place for that because people want to get as many views as you can. But damn, give this story an actual chance. Elden Ring will still be there when you're done.
it doesn't even need to be that text log, the first mission the spokesperson said in hologram, their goal is "truest form of immortality". That was so direct. And the sylens secret weapon tech, the game just constantly telling you there is another tech force out there.
In regards to Aloy's stoic characterization, I read Elizabet Sobecks bio in the notebook section of the menu. To paraphrase, it said that she was a genius who went to college at the age of 13? and got a bachelor's in 2 science majors (physics and robitics or something?) then went on to get a PhD and soon became a chief scientist at faro industries by the age of 22 or whatever. My point being that she was incredibly gifted and smart. This is a broad generalization (possibly problematic), and trope-y I know, but we often see in the real world that these people, while academically brilliant, struggle socially to connect with others either because they're autistic or some other reason. Not saying that guerilla intended for Aloy to be autistic or whatever but maybe it is part of the formula that makes up who she is (including her being shunned by the Nora throughout her formative years, her hero complex syndrome, the stress and weight of her responsibility to save everyone, etc). It wouldn't be the best portrayal of autistic features in a video game character imo. There are lots of moments of high emotion displayed by Aloy though in both games so... idk. I do think guerilla should clarify who she is in a more concrete way without being on the nose about it. Apologies before hand if I unintentionally offended anyone. Edit: I think there was also some conversation aloy had with Gaia about the kind of person elizabet was, how she loved everyone and everything. Can't remember specifics.
Aloy’s definitely not autistic because her struggles with interacting with others comes from her being raised as an outcast as well as her wanting to distance herself from people to keep them safe. Boomer, who is a character from one of the side quests, definitely fits more on the autistic spectrum than Aloy does from her interactions with Aloy & her sister Delah.
Finished the Plat and the story yesterday (have put 105h in it and LOVED it) and was looking forward to this spoilercast.. but MAN, am I disappointed with it.. Seems like everyone just mainlined the story, leaving like HALF the details and conversations untouched and now are complaining that some thing don't add up for them.. well DUH! Invest the time the game really needs to understand it. Otherwise it's pointless. You should do better.
Tilda being in love with sobeck was not out of nowhere. I know who skipped the optional dialogues. Not sure it shouldn't have been handled in optional dialogues though.
That also shows me the people who haven’t played Mass Effect, because those games are heavy on optional dialogue & it’s important to hear it to get to know the characters more.
Completely disagree with the crew’s take on nemesis. At the very beginning of the game, the far zenith spokesman hologram cutscenes said they are chasing the “truest form of immortality” and heavily implied living forever is not the only goal they were after. Secondly, What I love about this franchise is every word matters the meticulousness dedicated to sci-fi. What is an opinion from a character, what is an educated speculation, and what is a fact, it all matters. Throughout the main quest, characters only speculated and felt absurd about that zenith just wants to reboot the earth for sake of it. Besides those, tilda is the only one saying that but I never trusted her. (The crew did not trust her but apparently trusted this). It is a very unreasonable motive. I always felt These rich assholes would rather live like gods above tribal people than the effort and time to rebuild earth so there just them… so I was waiting for the real motive or something else. Thirdly about the crew thinks guerrilla game has not thought this through. All three were surprised by odyssey and far zenith. (I don’t want nitpicking about your description of reported failure odyssey ship, people in Horizon did not know it exploded they think they know because a special engine explosion signature was detected, I think this detail matters because it is sci fi). Fans of the lore and the universe of horizon have been speculating two plot lines, Far zenith with odyssey in space colony and the first sentient rogue AI, Vastsilver. Because of HFW, I could not believe more that the story board of this franchise is done way earlier than. 4th, sylens’ weapon tech analysis from Gaia suggested there could be another force, the tech is similar to far zeniths tech but different 5th, the nature of nemesis. Back to the point of character’s opinion and existing fact, I don’t think nemesis is an evil entity, lying tilda let you believe (which the crew seems to agree she is lying obviously but took her words). The “extinction” signal was speculated targeting hades specifically by Gaia because she thinks zenith members sent it. That was an speculation not a fact. Let’s just also speculate that is a signal to free all sub functions (they were extremely powerful entity but without consciousness) not specific to hades. Overall I just am just grateful that guerrilla game created sequel to hzd, created this epic story with meticulousness dedicated to sci fi world building. Maybe I am cynical, but I can’t help thinking if BioWare made the horizon franchise, critics/reviewers would take the games more seriously and give it the attention it deserves.
I'm pretty sure that every character had a series of side quests that you can do where you partner with them. Zo trying to heal the land-gods. Kotallo making his metal arm. Alva searching for farming and irrigation data to send back to the Quen. Erend and the Sons of Prometheus. They even bring back Talanah to search for a missing lover of hers. I enjoyed all of it, although I would've loved there to be a Carja representative on the team as one was noticeably absent.
The climbing can be a little sticky. 90% of the time it worked for me, at moments it got a little annoying. Still an improvement over the original. Aloy being a non character I disagree with. Aloy is constantly talking about how she hopes to live up to Elisabet and what she wanted the world to be. The nature vs nurture debate is settled immediately when Aloy shows Beta Rost and says that is the missing element. Aloy is the genetic clone of Elisabet but the reason she is so much like Elisabet is because she was raised by a good man and treated like an outcast. She persevered in spite of everything against her. Varl's death I didn't see as a race trope. If they would've killed any of the new characters, I don't think it would've hit. Erend would've been the only other character they could kill, but I don't think his death would have the same impact Varl's had. The pregnancy was a little tropey but it was a beautiful scene. I think the biggest issue with the story is the rushed 3rd act. Surprise, Tilda wants to kidnap you? WTF. I get it. The relationship between her and Elisabet was obvious and talked about earlier as Greg stated. She clearly downplayed it since characters don't share feelings due to lack of trust. That is so creepy and weird. Tilda not getting last words was strange. You beat her and then nothing, then NEMESIS. Ummm, that should've been an after credit scene. The lack of Regalla in the story was disappointing. Her death was cool though. My favorite moment was when Beta was watching the "Happy Birthday Isaac" message that Aloy found as a 6 year old. Beautiful moment.
One minor growth I enjoyed was Aloy learning not to trust people helping her like she did with Sylens. Having her team find the truth on Tilda was her learning from last game mistake
I finally Platinumed the game so I can enjoy this spoilercast, I really enjoyed listening to everyone's perspectives. I didn't really connect much with Aloy in HZD but in this game I found her way more interesting. Her being a dick to pretty much everyone in the beginning because she has so much weight on her shoulders and is only focused on her goal. She won't let anyone else's BS intefere with her mission and I think that's refreshing considering female characters often have to be either super empathetic to others or a Mean Girl, whereas Aloy can flow somewhere in between. When she finally does connect with others it means something because you know how hard she is to win over and let her guard down. Be sure not to miss an optional convo with Erend right before the final mission, they have a drink together and for a moment Aloy can laugh and be a normal person (amazing job by Ashly Burch because laughing naturally in video games is rarely done well). Forbidden West did an infinitely better job at building up its side characters compared to the original. I was surprised how few of the returning characters I actually remembered after 5 years, only a handful like Erend and Talanah did I feel like I had a grasp on. There's no way I'll feel the same for Horizon 3 because the crew is far more memorable and I love how the game put such on emphasis on building them up. I'm far more interested in the sequel to see the team in action from the start, more than the threat of Red Blob 2.0. They definitely needed to build up the Nemesis reveal more than about 20 minutes before the end of the game. I'm sure Guerilla can pull it off but I'm not sure how you make Nemesis more interesting than the actual Zeniths it was created by. Tilda is a fascinating character, I loved every bit of time I spent with her. I see the comments are dragging Greg for saying the romantic aspect came out of nowhere. I did the optional dialogue at the base but that also felt like it came out of nowhere... just earlier. I very much read her initial description of meeting Elisabet like Janet, that she was a fan who was intimidated and awed by Elisabet's intellect. In hindsight, sure I can see what they were hinting at but to go from that to "oh we were lovers" felt like a leap. Also I'm pretty sure Tilda isn't dead, I assume they left enough room in case Moss can't commit to the 3rd game but we never saw her body besides a limp arm and that woman is a survivor. It wouldn't make much sense for Nemesis to unleash hell on Earth with none of the Zeniths there to suffer the consequences.
Ironically I don't think people who rush through the game for review are the best people to review it. I savoured it like a fine wine, and played it during my limited free time. Finally completed the main campaign last night and loved every moment of the story. I'm going to continue playing to mop up the rest of the side quests to get the Platinum which I'm only 3 trophies away from.
Had a feeling Varl would die when he never had a personal quest to do, like the rest of the crew. Also, when he said he'll give his life to protect Beta at Gemini, oof.
That first part can be argued that, that was because going with Aloy and helping her IS his personal quest. Therefore that first two hours is his personal quest from the get go.
I didn't think the romance was out of the blue. It seemed very obvious based on the data logs before you met her. Though I guess it depends on if you skipped those.
I would say that the first clash, where you pick up the Gia Kernal, seemed to of been a much better spot to serve as the justification for knocking your character back to level zero than the simple line of dialogue you get in the game.
I can totally relate to how everyone on the podcast felt about the game. I see a lot of people bringing up the fact that you could talk to all of the companions to help flesh out Aloy and the relationships, but even with doing that it didn't make me care about Aloy as a character more or about each companion more. Like it had potential to be an amazing game but I feel it gets drug down by being both overly ambitious with the narrative in some places and derivative with some of the gameplay. Feeling slightly above mid with this one
So these far zenith backed up their minds digitally and then that backup became sentient turned into any machine they wanted and destroyed the colony. Who else thinks they became an upgraded faro swarm with high level intelligence? Probably will fight a Horus with Erik’s digital consciousness driving it.
I actually would like it if it does that. These people left an earth that they had a part in destroying (not as much as faro of course) they do off and live in VR memories and recreations of their old lives. They don't learn from their mistakes because of their arrogance and recreate the problem from before and they flee again. I kinda like the symmetry there.
Damn they didn't talk about the "Wings of the Ten" mission and what it introduced. I also wanted to know what they thought about the Quen in general. Still enjoyed it overall.
I feel like carrie ann moss's character purposfully witholds how deep the relationship her and elizabet had so aloy would not get suspicious as to her true intentions
She doesn't hold back. She fully admits to it if you spend time speaking with her In the base before the final mission. People really need to take their time with these games instead of rushing through them, missing extra details and then bitching about 'sudden developments'.
I just realized a cool piece of imagery their too. When she invites Aloy over for breakfast and Aloy takes the apple....Eve, the apple and the serpent symbolism going on there.
I got the platinum before Greg?! Even taking fatherhood into account, I didn't think this was possible. I personally loved the game, I've played for 100 hours, listened to all of the dialogue and only have a handful of stuff left to do. While all criticisms I've heard are valid, I definitely think HFW is suffering from review deadlines and proximity to Elden Ring as much as HZD suffered from BOTW. I do think Forbidden West is better the more you take your time with it. That being said, playing in mission-recommended-level order exacerbates the Regalla and team building pacing issues. At a minimum, Regalla needed another big scene. On the flip side, Tilda/Elisabet is completely, directly explained before the final scene if you actually go talk to Tilda about it.
I don't think Tilda and Elisabet slept together. Tilda comes off as a psychotic possessive stalker, and Elisabet finally came to realize what she really was, thus her hard breakoff.
100% agree with Barrett about platforming. It is really bad. It's clunky and slow. alloy often doesn't go where I want her to go even if there is clearly a highlighted "x" right next to her; I have to back track to reapproach the spot I want her to traverse to next. I much prefer just spamming the jump button to an piece of geometry that she isn't supposed to be able to grab because it is so much faster to climb. The clunkiness of the traversal is even more painfully evident given the fact that alloy can slide 100 ft in 1 swoop and the dynamic nature of combat especially against the machines. I really don't like the platforming in it.
It’s so funny how we played the same game and all of them have different opinions about the game. I absolutely loved the game, sure the climbing was a little weird but that’s such a minor thing.
This shouldn't b a plotline,, we spent the WHOLE GAME getting him for that to happen JUST so you can have evil machines to fight in part 3. This didn't need a sequel they are forcing it.
I do not like Barret jumping in all the time, any kind of constructive discussion disappears when you hear his voice from the back just raging. I know he wants to give his opinions but then he should be the part of the podcast and not just a guy behind the scenes who stops the flow of the show because he is just talking shit in the back. Completely negative vibe.. Think about it KFG guys!
@Angel Perez There’s also the fact that Horizon hasn’t lost its original identity like Assassin’s Creed did. Still wondering when we’re going to play as a member of the Assassin Brotherhood again.
He clearly skipped any optional dialogue and story. He’s missing half the plot. He rushed through and ended up playing a different game than everyone else. This goes for the whole KF crew.
@samthishan24 I dunno how or what ur availability to play is, but I don't see that happening for me. I magine 50-60 hrs for me which will take some time. Maybe by easter
Outside of Varl. Story discussion was so frustrating lol. Y’all barely paid attention and it shows. Maybe don’t let the guy who bum rushed a 60 hour game in 30 go off on character development problems. Saying we didn’t get more on Aloys trust issue after Barrenlight when she literally sets up a base and gives all her friends the knowledge she was previously burdened with so they can learn and talk as equals.
I just finished HFW and enjoyed for the most part. I have to say that the way everyone was intimating I was expecting some big nonsensical twist, but the ending seem to be pretty logical escalation of the plot. I honestly thought that there were going to introduce aliens into the story! The Zeniths crossed the galaxy but never came across and other life form, I'm surprised. It would be cool to fight alien machine animals in H3!
Really enjoyed the game, and this was a good spoilercast. BIG gripe I had with it though, was that I felt like I was constantly being attacked or getting into fights with machines. I feel the same way Greg did with Far Cry 5. I felt like I couldn't move 100 feet without getting attacked or having to sneak and avoid them.
It was obvious that Tilda and Elisabet had relations from the first mission reach 4 the stars with the holo conversation about Apollo. Also y’all lack gaydar. Morlund does not like girls. How slow can u be?
Finally was allowed to listen to this after Platinuming the game this past weekend. And my main question to the crew here is... what difficulty did everyone play on? I was on Normal and at no time did I ever feel the game was too difficult or had to replay bosses multiple times or felt the combat was clunky and cumbersome. Dying on the Tremortusk? Missing the final scan due to dying via the end boss? Slaughterspine troubles? Never happened. I had MAJOR issues with the combat in HZD, as every battle was a challenge and I'd plan every encounter out with traps and tripwires and making sure I was fully stocked and plotting which machine I'd override to help out and cheesing the battles I could. In this game, I felt virtually invincible. Maybe it was because I did SO MANY side quests that by the time I returned to the Golden Path I was overleveled, but also, the weapons and weapon techniques in this game are just so much better in general. I took Erik out with 3 arrows and one valor move. So satisfying. Also, the correct answer to who should be the only romanceable NPC is, of course, Nil from HZD. Nobody else even comes close to being good enough for Aloy. Unless you killed him near the end.
I love this game, not as much as I do the first, but I still really enjoyed it. The characters are fleshed out, the music is incredible, the world is beautiful and the gameplay is enjoyable. The only reason I enjoyed zero dawn more is because we were unraveling the mystery behind how the world fell apart and I found that fascinating.
Climbing was definitely better in 2 than in 1. Horizon is a franchise where the concept and everything surrounding this idea is amazing. The execution is just slightly below being beyond amazing. Gameplay (fighting specifically) and graphics are are some of the best today though and it’s worth checking out if you have a ps4 or ps5. Cauldrons are some of my favorite little adventures in gaming haha. So fun and they can get crazy. Edit: Beta should’ve saved Varl 100% and given him her focus. Was very disappointing losing him.
54:34 coming back to this a year later before we hit the shores. As someone on the autism spectrum and identifying asexual part of what i enjoy about Aloy is I see someone who is kinda like me. Yes 100% Aloy is a tue nuetral wall of a person but i see that in me a lot. Both her and Sobeck have these moments of brushing pasty people with out the proper social grace and that I think that can be either summed up to tunnel vision focusing on an issue or not actually being aware of the social norm for that moment. I know I have certainly had moments where i brushed past things in conversation or been judged for it cause i didnt handle it perfectly and i see moments like that with aloy. for instance very early in the game when aloy catches up with erend and he is rather grumpy because of how she treats him. i think it would be nice for them to flesh out aloys personality abit more cause thats what we like to see in our stories but i also enjoy my own head canon of her being on the spectrum
Regarding Nemesis, it's not going to be a nublous ball. What they set up was that Nemesis was made so that the personalities stored within could be moved to new bodies. Essentially, all I heard was that the big bads of Horizon 3 will be robots possessed by the personalities of psychotic zeniths, a combination of the two enemy types so far. It sounds nuts, but so does everything in this franchise on paper, so I'm here for whatever form that concept takes.
are you aware of Vast Silver from Horizon universe? just speculation, i don't think Tilda actually knew what nemesis is. That was what she thought nemesis is
Firstly, really great episode, guys. This is the type of content we love from this show. My thoughts: HFW is very close to a 10/10, but the clunky platforming and melee combat have to bring it down to a 9. Platforming is still very linear and Uncharted-like, except it's not as smooth as Uncharted due to design decisions like pressing square to drop down, and circle to leap backwards, instead of using the camera and thumbstick to direct your jumps. Combat, they fleshed out a bit, but is still fundamentally clunky with how animation heavy it is, and how you lock onto enemies when you attack them to compensate for being locked to the animation. Story-wise, this game suffers from a lot of the same problems as Death Stranding did, where tons of key dialogue and lore are entirely optional to the player, and as a result, the main story suffers a bit or doesn't reach its potential. The story overall is extremely good, but if you don't do every side quest, talk to every NPC and companion between missions, read and listen to every piece of lore, then you're going to feel like characters arent fleshed out or the story doesnt make sense at times. Regalla especially is an example of this, like you guys mentioned. She's going to feel under-utilized and almost entirely inconsequential to the story if you don't do every side quest that show you how she's terrorizing every tribe. If you ignore all of the lore, you also wouldn't understand the entire Ted Faro's tomb mission and the huge reveal at the end of that mission. The story and world are really amazing, but like you guys said, there's a lot of nonsense in it too. Guerilla deserves a lot of credit for creating a world that is so detailed lore wise, and so unique and creative. But, Blessing's use of the word 'disposable' when describing Varl's death was perfect. It felt wildly cliche how he died, and it wasn't exactly respected enough with how quickly the companions move on. There's so many cliches and tropes like that throughout the plot of the story. Plus, literal cavemen of the future outsmarting the smartest and most elite people of the old world requires you to suspend a lot of logic and reason. So, macro-level wise, Guerilla crafted an incredible story, world, politics, and lore. But, on a micro-level, there's a lot of room for improvement in the actual plot, but its still mostly good to great. Aloy is a really great character imo. I don't think she's as Superman as you guys think. She shows off a lot of vulnerabilities when shes alone, but then tries to act tough around people, and the people closest to her like Varl see right through it. She reminds me a lot of Lara Croft from the new trilogy of Tomb Raider games, except she's more confident. Personally, I don't think she needed romance options or nonlinear development, I enjoyed how they made her "a hero in the making" who sortve accepted her destiny. It's cheesey, but it was still great.
Actually, how they beat Far Zenith is faitly easy to understand. Sylens was able to deactivate the Zenith’s shields from information that it got from HADES after he interrogated it, who got it from Nemesis. As well, just because you’re smart doesn’t make you immune to your own hubris. Just look at Ted Faro.
@@Phanthief95 yeah but it's still a pretty big leap. Even how you're going through that final mission taking out Specters one by one as you're approaching the base, and Far Zenith isn't alerted until the big battle between Specters and Machines was absurd lol. How do they have all this highend technology but no surveillance.
@@kyrosheel They probably thought the Specters would be enough to take them, especially when they had an army of them. They didn’t know that Beta freed HEPHAESTUS to create machines to take them out. As well, the Zeniths are incredibly arrogant & have a superiority complex, so they didn’t think these “primitive beings” would be a challenge for them.
@@Phanthief95 it doesn't make sense to be thinking that after the incident with beta escaping captivity. These "primitive people" ended up knocking out one of the Zenith's shields and killed one of them at that lab. It's also kinda silly that the Zeniths are so full of their superiority complex that they have all these obvious oversights. There's a lot of these moments in the story where you just need to suspend logic and reason and go with the flow. I love the story otherwise and found it absolutely amazing, but I hope in the next game Guerilla can tighten this up a little. This is really just me nitpicking tho.
@@kyrosheel I mostly agree with your take. To add to your point about suspending disbelief for the story to work is Tilda and her role. Literally one of their own betrays them, who has all the information about them, they lose beta for some time and dont know what happened in that time span and one of their own gets killed even though she wore that high tech armor. Way too many important problems for any organization to ignore. Especially after they already fucked up before by creating a sentient super being that chases them through the galaxy
Eh Janet I did most of the Regalla fight with ranged combat and it was easy to do that I guess at the start you have to do some melee but that was easy for me as someone who also didn't play melee much.
They should have let u choose romancing. Then killed them off. it would further developed Aloy and the reason she is such an introvert and doesn't want help.
Greg u are a real gamer . I’m amazed ur not into elden ring . Yes everyone has their own preference, but I think you should give it another shot because there are many other big titles that take the dark souls format and we all end up loving those but we choose to look at souls games in a certain light when many other big titles take inspiration from them. I hope u get a chance to read this and take a different approach on elden . Btw I completely respect if this isint ur jam (or anyone else’s) but I feel like u would love it. Bcs games u loved such as the recent Star Wars , god of war etc etc take inspiration from the souls games
Didn‘t he play Bloodborne fairly recently? If Souls games still aren‘t his thing after playing a lot of Bloodborne (I don‘t remember if he finished it), I don‘t think Elden Ring is going to change that honestly.
You talk alot about the story and I agreed in so many aspects. What really made the story intressting for me was the lore and the background stuff. The tribes, the side characters, everything in the world was put in it for a reason. For example the tribes based around "the ten" had made an entire culture around holograms from the past. They worshipped soldiers in a broken down museum like they where gods. Pretty fasinating stuff, imagine if our world would end and a new civaltion would examine our world, what would they think of it and how they base their culture upon it?? The main story would be alot better if there was alot more emotional stuff and character development. I think it is a stylistic choice of GG to make aloy a neutral character to give more space for the world, the lore, characters and tribes. There is so much stuff happening here and its all very intresting, but it just didnt delivered to be a 10/10 for the story more like an 8 because it lacked in some areas. Like the side characters having more character development or aloy or a more fleshed out story of the zeniths. But still all very intressting stuff. I really wanted to keep playing to get to know more about the Zenitsh, Beta or other important story elements. And as you played the game, you got to know more about it and in the end it all came together. The ending was not very satisfactionarry for me because it basically wasnt a reward more like 'hey the reall threat is still out there and the world isnt saved'. It would be much cooler if sylens would take of in the airship of the zeniths and that the whoman from the zenitsh would not have told you about nemisis. That way sylens would in fact be still a bit of a mysterious bad guy and he would had used aloy all along and not be this kind of good guy he now sudenly had become. Furthermore the nemesis thing would still be a mystery and something to look forward to instead of explaining everything right away about it near the end of the game. But thats just small things, overall this game is amazing. I didnt rushed trough the main quests and fully explored most of the world. The world, the huge machine fights, the lore, the graphics, everything is just breathtaking and the strongest point of the game for me is the combat (shooting not melee). This is one the best open world games, its so much fun to explore and do all this stuff in it. I hope in the sequel the work more on character development, the climbing stuff and melee stuff. Oh yeah and by the way GG, please slow down or stop time when scanning machines, thank you 😬 Def a 4 out of 5 for me. Best PS5 game so far.
I never really had a problem with aloy as a character. I feel like her feeling are expressed through her actions. Like I don't think they need to have her day it out loud because she let here friends in and went on their side quests. If you never did the side quests I could see her motivations being confusing. The moment I walked into the base i could see her making friends and hanging out and I feel like they delivered. Maybe I'm rambling but I didn't think she felt off.
I'm seeing a bunch of comments that are along with my thoughts. So I'm glad I'm not crazy. Lol. I felt like she opened up pretty well. The gameplay did feel clunky in the platforming and traversal. But I felt like they nailed everything else. Sometimes the machines in the arena felt like they could just knock you down forever at times, and I got glitched into a wall 2 or 3 times. And I thought the Varl death was a little unnecessary. I feel like they could have had him mortally wounded and just had him sit out the rest of the game instead of just killing him. I would have loved seeing him go back to the Nora with zo. But those are really my only two complaints. Varl felt cheap and there was some traversal jank. Otherwise well worth the 77 hours it took to platinum.
It’s a bummer that y’all clearly skipped a lot of optional conversations, that’s some of the best parts of the game. What Barrett said about Tilda and ourv Elizbet’s relationship was so dumb, there’s a great conversation you can have with Tilda about how close they got and how they drifted apart, so what you say is patently wrong. You also miss so much more personality from Aloy. Also how is Greg going to say Aloy does good things to be good, and act Vanilla ass Superman is a good character. He’s the epitome of that. Also I just don’t agree with them about Varl’s death. This game does such a great job for representation for POC, so it’s a bummer that Varl is being viewed as just a token black character killed in a game. His character was so much more than that and that moment was so meaningful and upsetting (I yelled “no” when it happens).
Just completed the game except the small bandit camps: Love it and love the story, but the ending didn't feel as emotional as Zero Dawn. REALLY LIKED: - the Beta/ Aloy connection - How Heph fought and escaped the zeniths and now is smarter, which means more advanced machines in the future -Varl dying meaning anything could happen -The conversations at the base giving important details about the story DIDN'T LIKED: - the metroidvania elements of the open world, which made me wait to explore everything - few missions in the best area of the game, island of San Francisco. -long time until the story gets really going in the Hades Lab - spoilers in the side missions descriptions about the flying mount
Why did you guys spare Regalia? She was a crazy murderer. She ruined a great chance for peace and killed a bunch of innocent and then you get to kill her and are like, no shes suffered enough
@@DarkElfPaladin ha ok I like those reasons.. still you get a bow if you kill her. You miss it if you don't. Or you need to loot it from her body? I'm not clear on that since I didn't spare her
@@markheath14 no bow, but I looked it up and no tear precision arrows on it so it wouldn't make it into my normal kit. So I'm ok missing it. Hekarro does give you some armor after. Not sure if he does that if you kill her. I think it was called Tenakth High Marshal
Should I point out the elephant in the room that Elisabet was a queer woman. So being her genetic clone, you’d think Aloy would be one as well? No offense to the MEN introduced so far (Varl came close but that only lasted a couple of hours), I just think that Aloy has yet met someone who is at her level. Maybe in the sequel, a sick-ass woman will come along and help her defeat Nemesis 🤓
I am skipping Baren's thoughts because he just dislikes it . Everything done there : that's bad for him . He doesn't feel hooked. Do the side quests . Talk with them regularly after each mission , companion missions . You will get attached . Have you visited the memorial of Varl and listened to aloy speaking with his late friend. You don't get the story or emotions because you didn't try . Absolutely incredible sci fiction story . Horizon Forbidden West is awesome.
I'm getting this, even though I still haven't finished Horizon 1. Horizon 1 had a problem dragging the plot across the finish line. Judgement had the same problem. It was like both games were longer than they needed to be for me to want to finish them.
after the first game i wanted to fight a horus so bad and im sad we didnt get to this time. if we dont fight one of those big ass bastards next time im gonna riot.
I feel like some of the fleshing out of the characters may be better if you talk to them every time you complete a main mission. There is a lot that you miss without talking to them all
Jesus, I had to stop listening to this. Everyone else in the comments already said it, but you guys REALLY missed a lot of great story beats because you obviously rushed thru this game. As a fan of yours, that really disappointing guys
I feel like Janet and Blessing, like myself, might bea little off base on our take about the token Black character dies trope in this game. I think it's been done so many times in other games that a death like that would trigger us. I haven't played this game yet but I immediately felt that, "not this sh** again" feeling in my gut when Varl's death was revealed in the show regardless of the game's great representation.
@@furrybproductions It definitely doesn’t feel tropey either because if it were anyone else from Aloy’s group that died, it wouldn’t have the same impact as Varl since he’s kinda the heart of the group. He was able to curtail Aloy & Erend’s worst tendencies (like Aloy always wanting to do everything by herself or Erend’s constant drinking), he developed a flirtatious relationship with Zo, & he was the first person that Beta opened up to. Anyone else & it wouldn’t have the same impact.
I agree completely with the clunkiness of movement and the story not being great so I'm not trying to blindly defend the game. But in terms of the map and open world design, I've found the options for HUD elements fixes this problem. I keep on main quest markers but turn off everything else. Makes the game feel a lot more about discovery rather than check marks. It actually changes the whole feel of the game.
I had this real weird thing for about 5 minutes (now mind you i've had a drink or two) wondering what happened to Janet. Then I went to kinda funny channel and used Find to see her on the last 2 PS I
Tilda wanted to take Aloy with her to get away from Nemesis because she saw her as her second chance with Elizabet Sobeck, who she loved. Aloy refused & Tilda wasn’t going to kill her but take her by force.
If you have an optional conversation with Tilda before the last mission she confesses that her and Elizabet were in a relationship, makes that last line not weird if you talk to her
I like the game but it's just ok to me not great by any means. Combat is still clunky imo, climbing and whatnot is infuriating at times and there's too much damn dialogue for side quests.
It's just start it will be misunderstood and overlooked a lot at the end of the year. I love this game and it is my game of the generation, I hope that the third one comes really soon.
Regarding Tilda and Sobeck’s relationship, Tilda tells you they were together if you talk to her in the base before meeting at the rendezvous site. She says they broke up because Tilda wanted more while Sobeck wanted less/more independence. So her line at the end of loving Elisabet so much was in line with that previous, admittedly missable, conversation.
That’s how you can tell they don’t fully play the games lol
Yap I was shocked they missed something so clear
@@KeepingItFishy I just finished my playthrough and it clocked in at 90 hours. Most of them spent 25-35 hours to beat the game. No way they can't truly understand the game without 50-70 hours of playtime.
@@Mr8T1 yeah I just finished the game and I’m shocked it was over 90 hours
46:20 About the Tilda and Elizabet relationship. Them being lovers doesn’t necessarily come out of the blue, because there is dialogue you can have with Tilda at the base that expands upon her relationship with Liz. It’s a shame that this is only optional though, because it makes her comments at the end of the game make much more sense.
So many people seem to have completely missed or purposely ignored the companion talks you can have back at base.
I must have spent hours going through these conversations.
Those who ignored it all really missed out.
@@alternatelevi2099 agreed. Really enjoyed how each time you went back to the base each character had unique dialogue about how they’re training is going, how they’re getting used to their focuses, and how they’re getting along with the other companions. Not to mention there’s a few side quests you can miss if you don’t have these conversations.
Yeah that’s frustrating. I will say there is a golden path audio file as well where after aloy hears it she says “this sounded personal” but I forgot about that.
Yeah, it’s the first thing you ever hear of her, before you even know the zeniths are alive. Audio log makes it pretty clear they had a relationship of some kind.
Exactly.
They never interacted with the companions in base after each mission , each companion missions to learn about them more , get more attached . Feel like they are your friends .
A game gives you Mass effect styles companions and you do not engage with them and then blame the game for not holding your hands with every details when those were present there .
Absolutely insane .
I swear, we played two entirely different games lol Aloy opens up way more and even comes to the realization herself on how important Rost really was to her. And how she shouldn't hold herself to Elisabet's standards. Especially seeing how Beta was raised and having that lack of connection to any one but Tilda (even that was limited). Also, thank you Janet for bringing up that point about Tilda's relationship with both Beta and Aloy! It also left me feeling gross and uneasy about what she was attempting to do.
That's because they all completed the game in 30/40hrs and missed 75% of the game. I've just finished at 110 hours, 82% completion and 96% trophies just missing winning one more machine strike game and missing one hunters trial.
I'd love to see bless and janets map, completion stat.
@@sprinter1boy this is the first game where I would love to get 100% completed. Unfortunately I missed a scan on a key machine during the final mission so that messed that trophy up. I get that they were main lining the story and that's completely fine. They have a lot on the go with review season. But you do miss little details when you don't get to take your time with the game and explore those options.
@@thenerdynorth I missed it too, you can get it in the arena chsllanges and scan the "corrupter" it's during the 2nd arena challenge on expert (put it on story mode for that one lol)
@@sprinter1boy Good to know what to look forward to! Still trying to get to the Slitherfang for the first round in the arena. I'm missing the alpha prime machine that I thought I had scanned but must have gotten interrupted during the fight. Unfortunately I don't think you can get back to the Zenith camp to try and find it again.
@@thenerdynorth you'll be good to go in the arena challanges to scan it 😊
I can't believe the KFG team played the game in less than 40hrs ? I was at like 16% completion at 40hours gone.
Listening to there comments on the game I believe they shouldn't be reviewing the game.
Some of there complaints are simply changing things in settings and they must have missed so much story? There is 10 hour plus just in dialogue, reading things, exploring .
The only things I didn't do was 2 black boxes, 2 drones,2 vista locations, jus tneed one more win at machine strike and need to 3 challenges in hunters trial but sold the bow I need and can't find it again lol.
I need the shock bow if you know where that is and I can't remember which merchant or other character I sold it too 😔
Have fun
If you talk to Tilda before the final mission she explicitly tells you about their relationship
I don't think they got all the data points and audio logs it unlocks a lot of dialogue when they're talking
Yeah I did not talk to her before but I also think that’s sort of a narrative flaw if it doesn’t hit as much without it. Life is strange true colors had similar story issues with missable info.
@@Gameonysus Narrative flaw, yes. However, I felt that a lot of the conversation in this cast was said in the context of "it came out of nowhere and wasn't earned" which isn't entirely fair - provided you dove into all the extra dialogue bits. If you did, the story is much tighter and more well earned than you would think otherwise.
Did you guys ever go in to Aloy's room and talk to the trinkets? She has her own private conversations with Rost's spear or Elisabet's necklace. Aloy even has conversations with Varl about Rost.
I think that's the problem. It's understandable that as reviewers they didn't have time to pour 100 hours into the game, but it's like they have no cognisance of the fact that maybe if something didn't make sense, came out of nowhere, or felt cheap, maybe just maybe it's because you didn't actually get the full story because of the compressed timeline of your gameplay. This game, for better or worse, rewards you for taking your time with the world, the story isn't just a blockbuster film all revealed in cinematics, there's probably well over half the story buried in character dialogue interactions and things found out in the world.
@@chrisdpratt completely agree with your statement. And this game deserves to be delved in to and have all of the conversations listened to. I re-started the game this weekend and trying new things and actually getting rewarded with different interactions with the companions. I hope they can go back and really live in the world like you're supposed to. Even the interactions with the side quests were so well done and gives Aloy so much more personality than what they've seen. Those side quests alone make this game worth playing and I think there was just one NPC I didn't care for out of all the ones you interact with. Let alone loving each companion you have and just wanting more with them.
They clearly did none of that. Which is sad.
@@joshuacameron5333 it is very sad.
Man all of these “Suddenly the relationship turned” complaints stem from not talking to the characters more often. This game, maybe to its fault requires you to read the logs and from time to time go back to the base to talk to your companions. The Beta relationship developed slowly and incrementally over time until they had their fight, talked it out a few times until Aloy was able to look past her own prejudice and find some understanding for Betas situation. That wasn’t sudden AT ALL. But all of that was easily missable if you somewhat rushed through the game.
It’s crazy that they’re reviewing a game but didn’t actually play it for all the nuggets that you can miss.
@@igotsomethingtosay4361 totally. This whole thing was the most useless spoilercast ever…
@@igotsomethingtosay4361 a lot of these podcast style reviewers rush games and ignore side/optional content to meet their deadlines. its sad
read the logs? who the fuck does that
@@boochtron the reading was just necessary for context, the important one she read out loud. But talking to the companions and listening to her monologues in her room are important.
I was really looking forward to this spoilercast, but man did it miss the mark. I understand it's "review season" and you all have games falling out your butts, but it was obvious that you all ran through this game and seemed to pay little to no attention to your companions. Erand telling the story of his sister and Avad's escape to Aloy over a beer was fan-tas-tic! And I don't know how many people found it, but the secret memorial overlooking the ocean/ San Francisco was amazing. I love Kinda Funny and all it's content, and felt kinda bad that I wasn't enjoying this spoilercast, until I hopped in the comments and saw similar opinions. Maybe there will be more time to dive into it when y'all do the Forbidden West 2025 review. I do agree with the jenky movement at times, and weird clipping stuff like getting stuck inside a thunderjaw and having to reload a save to get out. And lastly, I can't count the amount of times I said aloud "shut up, Aloy!" because she would tell you how to solve everything before you even get a chance to think about it. It made me feel like I wasn't solving anything and was just doing what Aloy tells me instead. Anyway, no love lost, Kinda Funny is still the best there is. Thanks for taking the time to give your opinions.
-PS, can we make it a late 2022 resolution to stop saying "I adored this game" lol.
I agree with this. 👍
It's just start it will be misunderstood and overlooked a lot at the end of the year. I love this game and it is my game of the generation, I hope that the third comes really soon.
Absolutely. Completely agree with you . I spent so many quality.oments with my companions and cared far more about them than I did in HZD .
All of it will be missed if you don't regularly chat with them in the base .
Or the characters even in open world . You can talk with them even after mission completion to get new updates .
You can't enjoy something if you are not taking it properly .
Don't drink milk with a spoon. Pour it in glass and take a nice sip .
It's easy to miss, but you can totally have a conversation with Tilda about her relationship with Elisabet. She even goes into why they broke up, you have to talk to her before heading off to the final island though! (It's still a bit out of nowhere and sounds like it was more of a fling, but guess 1,000 years can warp memories??)
I feel like there is more elaboration on Alloy's feelings if you went back and talked to Varl all the time, they talk about rost, sisters, etc. (same with Erend)
This is why I hate when people rush through open world games. You guys missed so much story development. There was so much relationship dialogue you missed. 😞
Tell me you didn’t really pay attention to the game without telling me you didn’t pay attention to the game
Sounds like you guys rushed through the game and missed conversations at the base n side missions n content that gives more context to everything n everyone.
I really feel like Barrett came in with preconcieved notions of Horizon and then just looked for more issues to back up his intial ideas, rather than stepping back and re-evaluating. Because most of his points are solved by just playing the game more, listening to the characters and story, or reading the logs.
Seriously, they missed so much, I had to stop listening. I’m just talking back against everything they say.
I thought Aloy’s story was incredibly meaningful. She grows beyond trying to carry the weight of the world’s problems by herself, to not being afraid to ask others for help. I can relate to that in both my personal and professional life.
This! 100%!
I also felt she changed from caring about people just because they're part of the world she's trying to save to actually caring about people on an individual level. It was kind of the lesson Rost tried to teach her in Zero Dawn taken to its natural conclusion. Sure, she had pre-existing relationships with Varl and Erend, but they became much deeper and personal.
@@chrisdpratt I loved both sequences of being reunited with Varl and Erend. Having them be involved made me so happy and I wanted more out of their companionship. With everyone really. I would have loved to see Erend and Kotallo go into a cauldron with Aloy like Zo and Varl did. Or getting a more obvious side story with Erend. It took me until almost the end of the game and seeing it on Tumblr that he got his own side missions from the rebel outposts missions. I was going to save those until after the game was done and had to do a U-turn to go back haha I see where they are going with the companions though and I can't wait until a DLC and third game for them to expand on it.
What a weird take by Janet with Varl being "another black character dying" in a game with plenty of other black characters. I personally didn't love it because the game moved on to Tilda right away which undercuts his death, but it makes sense for the closest character to Aloy to die and illicit an emotional response. Erend would not have worked at all, because he is just bland and wouldn't leave any impact.
And I just don't share any of Barretts sentiments on anything it seems, which is fine. He makes some good points, but it just seems like he rushed through the game. A lot of optional content resolves some of his issues, e.g. Tilda and Elisabet being together is explained in optional dialogue in the base, Aloy's opening up is shown throughout some side quests as well and the open world design being a lot more detailed than the typical Ubisoft game. Going back to some places and talking to "finished" quest givers and NPCs can give you a second quest/direct continuation that you might miss otherwise or some towns changing thanks to you contribution in side quests.
Varl's death seemed very abrupt and turned into an afterthought way too quickly, was totally just unimpactful in my opinion and moved on way too quickly. Seemed weird and unnecessary.
Also I don’t even feel this fits into the trope they are talking about. First multiple characters of note die at the Embassy in the first part of the game that aren’t black, and this isn’t even the first part of this story. It’s the second game. He dies like 80+ hours into the overall storyline. This isn’t the old “horror movie where the black guy dies first” trope. There’s also so many strong POC characters in this world.
Yea when he died, him being black didn't even cross my mind. People bringing up skin color and trying to connect dots that aren't there is the reason so-called "racism" is still lingering around IMO.
Zo and Kotalla are everything. also I adored the sidequests in this game, really highlighted a sense of growth from aloy and connecting with characters for me. Slight spoilers below
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Seeing the beginning shots of this game from Aloy being alone in her search to then go being with a group demonstrated (not through the narrative as much as I would've liked) environmental storytelling - by the end, she had a group of people she finds to really care for and want to protect and choosing not to go with Sylias - making her different from Elizabeth by the end of the game. can't wait to plat. this
I gotta say if you rolled credits at 36 hours then you definitely rushed through it.
For real
Facts! I just rolled credits last night at 72 hours and level 42.
@@LEdoubleX Yeah I completed it at around 70 hours as well and I didn’t even complete most of the side quests, just a few here and there.
It’s definitely the kind of game that’s more enjoyable when you take your time and really get to know the world/characters.
@@mr88nyc I didnt complete most of the sidequests either but that's because I wanna save them for new game plus on ultra hard. That's when I'll really take my time in upgrading weapons, hunting, and doing the sidequests/activities. Are you going to comeback to the game later?
@@LEdoubleX Yeah, I’ve just been doing some side quests on my completed save. Haven’t started New Game plus yet.
I’m big fan of Guerrilla’s work, especially with Horizon. For whatever reason I really identify with the main character in these games.
Did these three ever talk to the companions multiple times once you got to the base? While not perfect, I think that's where Aloy's character growth shows from "I need to do this alone" to more of a "I can't do this without you". Now, should this have been made unmissable by being on the golden path? Yes. But that doesn't mean it wasn't there. I don't think it's as one-note as the crew here think.
Greg,
Regalia is the car in FFXV.
Regalla is the Tenakth rebel leader in Horizon Forbidden West.
I was excited to listen this podcast and then I read the comments about how you guys basically B lined the main story and completely skipped all of the loyalty missions w companions + the conversations at the base…wow y’all basically missed half the game just by doing that, no wonder you thought it wasn’t great 🙃
Yeah this game definitely isn’t designed to be binged.
like i kinda also feel you could skip all the side mission including loyalty mission. Just pay attention to main plot, golden pass audiolog (not text log), and all the base conversation. That should be enough. They don't give the respect GG deserves. if this was made by bioware, it would be treated the differently.
Prefectly said, they whine fucking to much of a goty game! Yes some parys could have been better, but watching this even with remembering there review, they feel like they hate it more. They sould shut the fuck up of this extreme complaining!!!
Yep, the same game that everyone gave a 5/5 to outside of Andy/Barrett? They must have really hated it! I did everything in the game and I agree with some of their criticisms.
It makes it hard to listen to.
I got the plat and finished the game this morning (I did all the side stuff required for the plat as I played and got the plat at 70 hours as I finished the story) and di every side mission and errand and zi gotta say, I am so much higher in this game then anyone I have heard so far. This was a masterpiece to me. Truly ex exceptional game and perhaps my favorite open world of all time. Only criticism I absolutely agree with is the lack of a Faro fight at the end of that mission in the tomb but other than that I love all the side characters (Varl and Alva especially) I actually really like the off brand Mario Kart gauntlets, strike is surprisingly engaging, every side mission actually affects the world and ppl in it and I actually like Aloy as well, what Ashley Burch does as 3 different versions of the same character is absolutely amazing and she deserves all the awards. And despite flying mounts being spoiled for me what a moment that was. My personal favorite moment has to be raising up from that cauldron on top of the tallneck though. Truly exceptional game, I think the 3rd best first party game after GoW and Tlou
Did you guys not talk to the companion characters throughout, or exhaust all the options when talking? Because seemingly most of the issues raised are addressed from talking to them.
Also, Aloy is a character that for 19 years had no other conversations or relationships with people other than Rost. So the fact she's distant and feels like she has to do it alone, stay focussed is built from her upbringing. Especially when she feels like many others can't understand what needs to be done due to their lack of knowledge, but also their lack of desire to act.
Personally, I think her character is extremely well written. I like that she isn't the "Really social, that's universally great character", she's just a few steps off Sylen's. She avoids talking about anything emotional because she feels like it makes her weaker by focussing on the negative.
Also, Nemesis is hinted at throughout... you guys need to pay attention more. It just wasn't explicitly said until the end.
Just wanna point out Aloy straight up hated the Nora and their culture for abandoning her. In the Redmaw quest, she refers to herself as 'Aloy despite the Nora.' She didn't want to be a part of the tribe, she wanted to know why she was cast out. Her primary motivation for investigating the ruins was to learn who her mother was. She has a severe mommy complex due to abandonment and the cultural expectations of mother hood for the Nora.
Yep completely disagree with Barret as I knew I would. Love this game, for both its gameplay and story and the open world elements like the changed Tallnecks. Really like Aloy and have since the first she's really likeable to me and understandable as a person with her background.
I get the complaints that are brought up about the story, but literally every single one is resolved if you listen to the optional dialogue. But again not everyone is going to do that
I don't know if I consider it a troupe.... that usually applies when you have a horror film and they have one black character. And they kill him off. This you have multiple black characters that didn't die. I hate when you can't kill off people because they're gay or black. Death is a powerful motivator. I remember people complaining about this particular show because a gay character was a terrorist. Gay people were upset, even though the character was the most popular character on the show. You're actually taking away powerful characters and moments from black people.
Exactly. I don’t see it as a trope for 3 reasons.
First, Varl was already an established character. Forbidden West isn’t his first game since he was in Zero Dawn. He’s not a character that shows up & gets killed in the same game.
Second, he’s the only other Nora in the game besides Aloy. Because of this, his death is more impactful because he & Aloy have a history, especially when Aloy helped Varl avenge his sister’s death.
Third, he went out like a hero protecting Beta. He got an honorable death, not a terrible one.
@@Phanthief95 It's something I didn't even think about until they brought it up. And i'm black. It feels like they're making an issue out of nothing. I don't think any other character would have been as impactful with there death as Varl.
@RevedUpTrev I feel more offended about people saying you can't kill off characters because they're black. On one hand she said it was a powerful death. Then she's saying it's a trope.
@@wkadalie Especially when Varl established himself as the heart of the group. He was able to curtail some of Aloy & Erend’s worse tendencies, he developed a flirtatious relationship with Zo, & he was the first person that Beta opened up to.
THANK YOU
This man said Beta is a type B personality 🤦🏻♀️. She was isolated and only made to be used as an item, no interaction at all. How did you expect her to act like? This spoilercast was pretty bad and barely went through the story beat by beat. The Barret guy you could tell beelined everything and him blaming the gameplay for being bad at the game…
It's kind of funny how wrong everyone is about basically every story aspect in this. I think maybe it's actually highly important to take your time with this game, and as reviewers, you all just powered through it. Literally everything is explained and built up. Varl's character development through the arc of the story made his death not trope at all. It was deeply painful not just to Aloy and Zo but for the team as a whole. He was like the chaplain for a squad of soldiers. You guys just really missed everything, and all the complaints are so hollow to those of us who actually gave the story due time.
If I hear a reviewer say that Aloy is "dull, cold and had no development" I just turn it off because clearly they didn't play the game at all. Aloy is a complex character who is evolving throughout the entire game. Even when the credits rolled and you are left to explore, she is still given the opportunity to grow and trust in her companions which she didn't have before. Everyone wants a "cut and paste" protagonist who has all of this figured out and now you as the player just have to choose whether or not you want that character to be an a-hole or a "good guy". There is nothing wrong with Aloy being Lawfully good (I'd argue that she's chaotic good) and has that sense of right and wrong in this world.
@@thenerdynorth couldn't agree more. Aloy developed dramatically over the course of the story. I just saw someone complain on Reddit that Aloy doesn't change at all, and I was wondering what game they were playing, because it sure as heck wasn't Forbidden West.
@@chrisdpratt I had to stop watching someone's playthrough because they were main lining the game too and they weren't listening to all of the conversation options with the companions or refusing to do certain quests that gives you the best gear. I know RUclips isn't the best place for that because people want to get as many views as you can. But damn, give this story an actual chance. Elden Ring will still be there when you're done.
Exactly.
I was fine with Nemesis because they hinted at it in a data log you find in one of the old Zenith bases.
it doesn't even need to be that text log, the first mission the spokesperson said in hologram, their goal is "truest form of immortality". That was so direct. And the sylens secret weapon tech, the game just constantly telling you there is another tech force out there.
There no way they read any data logs lol. Though they should have.
In regards to Aloy's stoic characterization, I read Elizabet Sobecks bio in the notebook section of the menu. To paraphrase, it said that she was a genius who went to college at the age of 13? and got a bachelor's in 2 science majors (physics and robitics or something?) then went on to get a PhD and soon became a chief scientist at faro industries by the age of 22 or whatever. My point being that she was incredibly gifted and smart. This is a broad generalization (possibly problematic), and trope-y I know, but we often see in the real world that these people, while academically brilliant, struggle socially to connect with others either because they're autistic or some other reason. Not saying that guerilla intended for Aloy to be autistic or whatever but maybe it is part of the formula that makes up who she is (including her being shunned by the Nora throughout her formative years, her hero complex syndrome, the stress and weight of her responsibility to save everyone, etc). It wouldn't be the best portrayal of autistic features in a video game character imo. There are lots of moments of high emotion displayed by Aloy though in both games so... idk. I do think guerilla should clarify who she is in a more concrete way without being on the nose about it. Apologies before hand if I unintentionally offended anyone.
Edit: I think there was also some conversation aloy had with Gaia about the kind of person elizabet was, how she loved everyone and everything. Can't remember specifics.
Aloy’s definitely not autistic because her struggles with interacting with others comes from her being raised as an outcast as well as her wanting to distance herself from people to keep them safe.
Boomer, who is a character from one of the side quests, definitely fits more on the autistic spectrum than Aloy does from her interactions with Aloy & her sister Delah.
@@Phanthief95 I did see that and you're absolutely right! I noticed as well and really enjoyed that dialog exchange.
Finished the Plat and the story yesterday (have put 105h in it and LOVED it) and was looking forward to this spoilercast.. but MAN, am I disappointed with it.. Seems like everyone just mainlined the story, leaving like HALF the details and conversations untouched and now are complaining that some thing don't add up for them.. well DUH! Invest the time the game really needs to understand it. Otherwise it's pointless. You should do better.
Tilda being in love with sobeck was not out of nowhere. I know who skipped the optional dialogues. Not sure it shouldn't have been handled in optional dialogues though.
That also shows me the people who haven’t played Mass Effect, because those games are heavy on optional dialogue & it’s important to hear it to get to know the characters more.
The Barrett-heavy section ends around 20:00.
Completely disagree with the crew’s take on nemesis.
At the very beginning of the game, the far zenith spokesman hologram cutscenes said they are chasing the “truest form of immortality” and heavily implied living forever is not the only goal they were after.
Secondly, What I love about this franchise is every word matters the meticulousness dedicated to sci-fi. What is an opinion from a character, what is an educated speculation, and what is a fact, it all matters. Throughout the main quest, characters only speculated and felt absurd about that zenith just wants to reboot the earth for sake of it. Besides those, tilda is the only one saying that but I never trusted her. (The crew did not trust her but apparently trusted this). It is a very unreasonable motive. I always felt These rich assholes would rather live like gods above tribal people than the effort and time to rebuild earth so there just them… so I was waiting for the real motive or something else.
Thirdly about the crew thinks guerrilla game has not thought this through. All three were surprised by odyssey and far zenith. (I don’t want nitpicking about your description of reported failure odyssey ship, people in Horizon did not know it exploded they think they know because a special engine explosion signature was detected, I think this detail matters because it is sci fi). Fans of the lore and the universe of horizon have been speculating two plot lines, Far zenith with odyssey in space colony and the first sentient rogue AI, Vastsilver. Because of HFW, I could not believe more that the story board of this franchise is done way earlier than.
4th, sylens’ weapon tech analysis from Gaia suggested there could be another force, the tech is similar to far zeniths tech but different
5th, the nature of nemesis. Back to the point of character’s opinion and existing fact, I don’t think nemesis is an evil entity, lying tilda let you believe (which the crew seems to agree she is lying obviously but took her words). The “extinction” signal was speculated targeting hades specifically by Gaia because she thinks zenith members sent it. That was an speculation not a fact. Let’s just also speculate that is a signal to free all sub functions (they were extremely powerful entity but without consciousness) not specific to hades.
Overall I just am just grateful that guerrilla game created sequel to hzd, created this epic story with meticulousness dedicated to sci fi world building. Maybe I am cynical, but I can’t help thinking if BioWare made the horizon franchise, critics/reviewers would take the games more seriously and give it the attention it deserves.
The Eric fight was kinda funny for me. I played on normal, and did my valor move of slamming the ground and he died immediately.
Lmfao yeah I believe that. I got him down fairly quickly with the spear toss weapon thing.
I explosive-spike-throwered him like 5 times in the head and he died
Was easy but also satisfying
That’s why playing on the hardest levels makes it more realistic
@@igotsomethingtosay4361 I played on the hardest difficulty, and 1 Drill spear to the head, and 3 explosive ones after, finished him. lol
I'm pretty sure that every character had a series of side quests that you can do where you partner with them. Zo trying to heal the land-gods. Kotallo making his metal arm. Alva searching for farming and irrigation data to send back to the Quen. Erend and the Sons of Prometheus. They even bring back Talanah to search for a missing lover of hers. I enjoyed all of it, although I would've loved there to be a Carja representative on the team as one was noticeably absent.
The climbing can be a little sticky. 90% of the time it worked for me, at moments it got a little annoying. Still an improvement over the original. Aloy being a non character I disagree with. Aloy is constantly talking about how she hopes to live up to Elisabet and what she wanted the world to be. The nature vs nurture debate is settled immediately when Aloy shows Beta Rost and says that is the missing element. Aloy is the genetic clone of Elisabet but the reason she is so much like Elisabet is because she was raised by a good man and treated like an outcast. She persevered in spite of everything against her. Varl's death I didn't see as a race trope. If they would've killed any of the new characters, I don't think it would've hit. Erend would've been the only other character they could kill, but I don't think his death would have the same impact Varl's had. The pregnancy was a little tropey but it was a beautiful scene. I think the biggest issue with the story is the rushed 3rd act. Surprise, Tilda wants to kidnap you? WTF. I get it. The relationship between her and Elisabet was obvious and talked about earlier as Greg stated. She clearly downplayed it since characters don't share feelings due to lack of trust. That is so creepy and weird. Tilda not getting last words was strange. You beat her and then nothing, then NEMESIS. Ummm, that should've been an after credit scene. The lack of Regalla in the story was disappointing. Her death was cool though. My favorite moment was when Beta was watching the "Happy Birthday Isaac" message that Aloy found as a 6 year old. Beautiful moment.
One minor growth I enjoyed was Aloy learning not to trust people helping her like she did with Sylens. Having her team find the truth on Tilda was her learning from last game mistake
I finally Platinumed the game so I can enjoy this spoilercast, I really enjoyed listening to everyone's perspectives. I didn't really connect much with Aloy in HZD but in this game I found her way more interesting. Her being a dick to pretty much everyone in the beginning because she has so much weight on her shoulders and is only focused on her goal. She won't let anyone else's BS intefere with her mission and I think that's refreshing considering female characters often have to be either super empathetic to others or a Mean Girl, whereas Aloy can flow somewhere in between. When she finally does connect with others it means something because you know how hard she is to win over and let her guard down. Be sure not to miss an optional convo with Erend right before the final mission, they have a drink together and for a moment Aloy can laugh and be a normal person (amazing job by Ashly Burch because laughing naturally in video games is rarely done well).
Forbidden West did an infinitely better job at building up its side characters compared to the original. I was surprised how few of the returning characters I actually remembered after 5 years, only a handful like Erend and Talanah did I feel like I had a grasp on. There's no way I'll feel the same for Horizon 3 because the crew is far more memorable and I love how the game put such on emphasis on building them up. I'm far more interested in the sequel to see the team in action from the start, more than the threat of Red Blob 2.0. They definitely needed to build up the Nemesis reveal more than about 20 minutes before the end of the game. I'm sure Guerilla can pull it off but I'm not sure how you make Nemesis more interesting than the actual Zeniths it was created by.
Tilda is a fascinating character, I loved every bit of time I spent with her. I see the comments are dragging Greg for saying the romantic aspect came out of nowhere. I did the optional dialogue at the base but that also felt like it came out of nowhere... just earlier. I very much read her initial description of meeting Elisabet like Janet, that she was a fan who was intimidated and awed by Elisabet's intellect. In hindsight, sure I can see what they were hinting at but to go from that to "oh we were lovers" felt like a leap. Also I'm pretty sure Tilda isn't dead, I assume they left enough room in case Moss can't commit to the 3rd game but we never saw her body besides a limp arm and that woman is a survivor. It wouldn't make much sense for Nemesis to unleash hell on Earth with none of the Zeniths there to suffer the consequences.
Ironically I don't think people who rush through the game for review are the best people to review it. I savoured it like a fine wine, and played it during my limited free time. Finally completed the main campaign last night and loved every moment of the story. I'm going to continue playing to mop up the rest of the side quests to get the Platinum which I'm only 3 trophies away from.
Had a feeling Varl would die when he never had a personal quest to do, like the rest of the crew. Also, when he said he'll give his life to protect Beta at Gemini, oof.
That first part can be argued that, that was because going with Aloy and helping her IS his personal quest. Therefore that first two hours is his personal quest from the get go.
I didn't think the romance was out of the blue. It seemed very obvious based on the data logs before you met her. Though I guess it depends on if you skipped those.
I would say that the first clash, where you pick up the Gia Kernal, seemed to of been a much better spot to serve as the justification for knocking your character back to level zero than the simple line of dialogue you get in the game.
I can totally relate to how everyone on the podcast felt about the game. I see a lot of people bringing up the fact that you could talk to all of the companions to help flesh out Aloy and the relationships, but even with doing that it didn't make me care about Aloy as a character more or about each companion more. Like it had potential to be an amazing game but I feel it gets drug down by being both overly ambitious with the narrative in some places and derivative with some of the gameplay. Feeling slightly above mid with this one
So these far zenith backed up their minds digitally and then that backup became sentient turned into any machine they wanted and destroyed the colony. Who else thinks they became an upgraded faro swarm with high level intelligence?
Probably will fight a Horus with Erik’s digital consciousness driving it.
That’s what I was thinking to when I saw it “oh shit an even more horrible faro swarm how tf they gone stop that!!”
I actually would like it if it does that. These people left an earth that they had a part in destroying (not as much as faro of course) they do off and live in VR memories and recreations of their old lives. They don't learn from their mistakes because of their arrogance and recreate the problem from before and they flee again. I kinda like the symmetry there.
“Every playstation game is the same: it’s just dead dads, surprise pregnancies, and we’re getting on boats” 😂
Damn they didn't talk about the "Wings of the Ten" mission and what it introduced. I also wanted to know what they thought about the Quen in general. Still enjoyed it overall.
I loved this game! I had a few issues with mechanics and graphics but I think they did a great job with it.
I feel like carrie ann moss's character purposfully witholds how deep the relationship her and elizabet had so aloy would not get suspicious as to her true intentions
Aloy got suspicious the first time she got the audio log in hades proving lab
She doesn't hold back. She fully admits to it if you spend time speaking with her In the base before the final mission.
People really need to take their time with these games instead of rushing through them, missing extra details and then bitching about 'sudden developments'.
I just realized a cool piece of imagery their too. When she invites Aloy over for breakfast and Aloy takes the apple....Eve, the apple and the serpent symbolism going on there.
The only thing wrong with the climbing is id like it to be maybe a little bit faster otherwise it’s great.
I got the platinum before Greg?! Even taking fatherhood into account, I didn't think this was possible.
I personally loved the game, I've played for 100 hours, listened to all of the dialogue and only have a handful of stuff left to do. While all criticisms I've heard are valid, I definitely think HFW is suffering from review deadlines and proximity to Elden Ring as much as HZD suffered from BOTW. I do think Forbidden West is better the more you take your time with it.
That being said, playing in mission-recommended-level order exacerbates the Regalla and team building pacing issues. At a minimum, Regalla needed another big scene. On the flip side, Tilda/Elisabet is completely, directly explained before the final scene if you actually go talk to Tilda about it.
I don't think Tilda and Elisabet slept together. Tilda comes off as a psychotic possessive stalker, and Elisabet finally came to realize what she really was, thus her hard breakoff.
100% agree with Barrett about platforming. It is really bad. It's clunky and slow. alloy often doesn't go where I want her to go even if there is clearly a highlighted "x" right next to her; I have to back track to reapproach the spot I want her to traverse to next. I much prefer just spamming the jump button to an piece of geometry that she isn't supposed to be able to grab because it is so much faster to climb. The clunkiness of the traversal is even more painfully evident given the fact that alloy can slide 100 ft in 1 swoop and the dynamic nature of combat especially against the machines. I really don't like the platforming in it.
It’s so funny how we played the same game and all of them have different opinions about the game. I absolutely loved the game, sure the climbing was a little weird but that’s such a minor thing.
They have to make Nemesis take human form when it arrives and the form will be Ted Faro - final pay back
I feel like a big part of Horizon 3 will be finally getting Hephaestus back, to create the army capable of stopping Nemesis
This shouldn't b a plotline,, we spent the WHOLE GAME getting him for that to happen JUST so you can have evil machines to fight in part 3. This didn't need a sequel they are forcing it.
I do not like Barret jumping in all the time, any kind of constructive discussion disappears when you hear his voice from the back just raging. I know he wants to give his opinions but then he should be the part of the podcast and not just a guy behind the scenes who stops the flow of the show because he is just talking shit in the back. Completely negative vibe.. Think about it KFG guys!
Barrett hating this game seems weird. He loves assassins creed right? To me Horizon was like that but with better story and combat.
@Angel Perez There’s also the fact that Horizon hasn’t lost its original identity like Assassin’s Creed did.
Still wondering when we’re going to play as a member of the Assassin Brotherhood again.
He clearly skipped any optional dialogue and story. He’s missing half the plot. He rushed through and ended up playing a different game than everyone else. This goes for the whole KF crew.
I understand why this is so soon after release, but I really wish it wasn't. Sigh, save in the bank for a listen another day
@samthishan24 I dunno how or what ur availability to play is, but I don't see that happening for me. I magine 50-60 hrs for me which will take some time. Maybe by easter
Outside of Varl. Story discussion was so frustrating lol. Y’all barely paid attention and it shows. Maybe don’t let the guy who bum rushed a 60 hour game in 30 go off on character development problems. Saying we didn’t get more on Aloys trust issue after Barrenlight when she literally sets up a base and gives all her friends the knowledge she was previously burdened with so they can learn and talk as equals.
I just finished HFW and enjoyed for the most part. I have to say that the way everyone was intimating I was expecting some big nonsensical twist, but the ending seem to be pretty logical escalation of the plot. I honestly thought that there were going to introduce aliens into the story! The Zeniths crossed the galaxy but never came across and other life form, I'm surprised. It would be cool to fight alien machine animals in H3!
Really enjoyed the game, and this was a good spoilercast. BIG gripe I had with it though, was that I felt like I was constantly being attacked or getting into fights with machines. I feel the same way Greg did with Far Cry 5. I felt like I couldn't move 100 feet without getting attacked or having to sneak and avoid them.
It's a jungle out there lol jk.
It was obvious that Tilda and Elisabet had relations from the first mission reach 4 the stars with the holo conversation about Apollo. Also y’all lack gaydar. Morlund does not like girls. How slow can u be?
Testament to you guys I’m pretty sure I got an ad every 10 min and I still stuck around lol
I just finished HFW last night after 80 hours, perfect timing!!
Finally was allowed to listen to this after Platinuming the game this past weekend. And my main question to the crew here is... what difficulty did everyone play on? I was on Normal and at no time did I ever feel the game was too difficult or had to replay bosses multiple times or felt the combat was clunky and cumbersome. Dying on the Tremortusk? Missing the final scan due to dying via the end boss? Slaughterspine troubles? Never happened.
I had MAJOR issues with the combat in HZD, as every battle was a challenge and I'd plan every encounter out with traps and tripwires and making sure I was fully stocked and plotting which machine I'd override to help out and cheesing the battles I could. In this game, I felt virtually invincible. Maybe it was because I did SO MANY side quests that by the time I returned to the Golden Path I was overleveled, but also, the weapons and weapon techniques in this game are just so much better in general. I took Erik out with 3 arrows and one valor move. So satisfying.
Also, the correct answer to who should be the only romanceable NPC is, of course, Nil from HZD. Nobody else even comes close to being good enough for Aloy. Unless you killed him near the end.
I love this game, not as much as I do the first, but I still really enjoyed it. The characters are fleshed out, the music is incredible, the world is beautiful and the gameplay is enjoyable. The only reason I enjoyed zero dawn more is because we were unraveling the mystery behind how the world fell apart and I found that fascinating.
I usually hate water levels in games but HFW actually did a good job with it. It controlled well and it was gorgeous just swimming.
Climbing was definitely better in 2 than in 1. Horizon is a franchise where the concept and everything surrounding this idea is amazing. The execution is just slightly below being beyond amazing. Gameplay (fighting specifically) and graphics are are some of the best today though and it’s worth checking out if you have a ps4 or ps5. Cauldrons are some of my favorite little adventures in gaming haha. So fun and they can get crazy.
Edit: Beta should’ve saved Varl 100% and given him her focus. Was very disappointing losing him.
Barrett doesn’t seem to like this franchise that much, but he loves Assassins Creed lol WTF man.
54:34 coming back to this a year later before we hit the shores. As someone on the autism spectrum and identifying asexual part of what i enjoy about Aloy is I see someone who is kinda like me. Yes 100% Aloy is a tue nuetral wall of a person but i see that in me a lot. Both her and Sobeck have these moments of brushing pasty people with out the proper social grace and that I think that can be either summed up to tunnel vision focusing on an issue or not actually being aware of the social norm for that moment. I know I have certainly had moments where i brushed past things in conversation or been judged for it cause i didnt handle it perfectly and i see moments like that with aloy. for instance very early in the game when aloy catches up with erend and he is rather grumpy because of how she treats him. i think it would be nice for them to flesh out aloys personality abit more cause thats what we like to see in our stories but i also enjoy my own head canon of her being on the spectrum
Regarding Nemesis, it's not going to be a nublous ball. What they set up was that Nemesis was made so that the personalities stored within could be moved to new bodies.
Essentially, all I heard was that the big bads of Horizon 3 will be robots possessed by the personalities of psychotic zeniths, a combination of the two enemy types so far. It sounds nuts, but so does everything in this franchise on paper, so I'm here for whatever form that concept takes.
are you aware of Vast Silver from Horizon universe? just speculation, i don't think Tilda actually knew what nemesis is. That was what she thought nemesis is
Firstly, really great episode, guys. This is the type of content we love from this show.
My thoughts: HFW is very close to a 10/10, but the clunky platforming and melee combat have to bring it down to a 9.
Platforming is still very linear and Uncharted-like, except it's not as smooth as Uncharted due to design decisions like pressing square to drop down, and circle to leap backwards, instead of using the camera and thumbstick to direct your jumps. Combat, they fleshed out a bit, but is still fundamentally clunky with how animation heavy it is, and how you lock onto enemies when you attack them to compensate for being locked to the animation.
Story-wise, this game suffers from a lot of the same problems as Death Stranding did, where tons of key dialogue and lore are entirely optional to the player, and as a result, the main story suffers a bit or doesn't reach its potential. The story overall is extremely good, but if you don't do every side quest, talk to every NPC and companion between missions, read and listen to every piece of lore, then you're going to feel like characters arent fleshed out or the story doesnt make sense at times. Regalla especially is an example of this, like you guys mentioned. She's going to feel under-utilized and almost entirely inconsequential to the story if you don't do every side quest that show you how she's terrorizing every tribe. If you ignore all of the lore, you also wouldn't understand the entire Ted Faro's tomb mission and the huge reveal at the end of that mission.
The story and world are really amazing, but like you guys said, there's a lot of nonsense in it too. Guerilla deserves a lot of credit for creating a world that is so detailed lore wise, and so unique and creative. But, Blessing's use of the word 'disposable' when describing Varl's death was perfect. It felt wildly cliche how he died, and it wasn't exactly respected enough with how quickly the companions move on. There's so many cliches and tropes like that throughout the plot of the story. Plus, literal cavemen of the future outsmarting the smartest and most elite people of the old world requires you to suspend a lot of logic and reason. So, macro-level wise, Guerilla crafted an incredible story, world, politics, and lore. But, on a micro-level, there's a lot of room for improvement in the actual plot, but its still mostly good to great.
Aloy is a really great character imo. I don't think she's as Superman as you guys think. She shows off a lot of vulnerabilities when shes alone, but then tries to act tough around people, and the people closest to her like Varl see right through it. She reminds me a lot of Lara Croft from the new trilogy of Tomb Raider games, except she's more confident. Personally, I don't think she needed romance options or nonlinear development, I enjoyed how they made her "a hero in the making" who sortve accepted her destiny. It's cheesey, but it was still great.
Actually, how they beat Far Zenith is faitly easy to understand.
Sylens was able to deactivate the Zenith’s shields from information that it got from HADES after he interrogated it, who got it from Nemesis.
As well, just because you’re smart doesn’t make you immune to your own hubris. Just look at Ted Faro.
@@Phanthief95 yeah but it's still a pretty big leap. Even how you're going through that final mission taking out Specters one by one as you're approaching the base, and Far Zenith isn't alerted until the big battle between Specters and Machines was absurd lol. How do they have all this highend technology but no surveillance.
@@kyrosheel They probably thought the Specters would be enough to take them, especially when they had an army of them. They didn’t know that Beta freed HEPHAESTUS to create machines to take them out.
As well, the Zeniths are incredibly arrogant & have a superiority complex, so they didn’t think these “primitive beings” would be a challenge for them.
@@Phanthief95 it doesn't make sense to be thinking that after the incident with beta escaping captivity. These "primitive people" ended up knocking out one of the Zenith's shields and killed one of them at that lab. It's also kinda silly that the Zeniths are so full of their superiority complex that they have all these obvious oversights.
There's a lot of these moments in the story where you just need to suspend logic and reason and go with the flow. I love the story otherwise and found it absolutely amazing, but I hope in the next game Guerilla can tighten this up a little. This is really just me nitpicking tho.
@@kyrosheel I mostly agree with your take. To add to your point about suspending disbelief for the story to work is Tilda and her role. Literally one of their own betrays them, who has all the information about them, they lose beta for some time and dont know what happened in that time span and one of their own gets killed even though she wore that high tech armor. Way too many important problems for any organization to ignore. Especially after they already fucked up before by creating a sentient super being that chases them through the galaxy
Eh Janet I did most of the Regalla fight with ranged combat and it was easy to do that I guess at the start you have to do some melee but that was easy for me as someone who also didn't play melee much.
They should have let u choose romancing. Then killed them off. it would further developed Aloy and the reason she is such an introvert and doesn't want help.
Greg u are a real gamer . I’m amazed ur not into elden ring . Yes everyone has their own preference, but I think you should give it another shot because there are many other big titles that take the dark souls format and we all end up loving those but we choose to look at souls games in a certain light when many other big titles take inspiration from them. I hope u get a chance to read this and take a different approach on elden .
Btw I completely respect if this isint ur jam (or anyone else’s) but I feel like u would love it. Bcs games u loved such as the recent Star Wars , god of war etc etc take inspiration from the souls games
Didn‘t he play Bloodborne fairly recently? If Souls games still aren‘t his thing after playing a lot of Bloodborne (I don‘t remember if he finished it), I don‘t think Elden Ring is going to change that honestly.
You talk alot about the story and I agreed in so many aspects. What really made the story intressting for me was the lore and the background stuff. The tribes, the side characters, everything in the world was put in it for a reason. For example the tribes based around "the ten" had made an entire culture around holograms from the past. They worshipped soldiers in a broken down museum like they where gods. Pretty fasinating stuff, imagine if our world would end and a new civaltion would examine our world, what would they think of it and how they base their culture upon it??
The main story would be alot better if there was alot more emotional stuff and character development. I think it is a stylistic choice of GG to make aloy a neutral character to give more space for the world, the lore, characters and tribes. There is so much stuff happening here and its all very intresting, but it just didnt delivered to be a 10/10 for the story more like an 8 because it lacked in some areas. Like the side characters having more character development or aloy or a more fleshed out story of the zeniths. But still all very intressting stuff. I really wanted to keep playing to get to know more about the Zenitsh, Beta or other important story elements. And as you played the game, you got to know more about it and in the end it all came together.
The ending was not very satisfactionarry for me because it basically wasnt a reward more like 'hey the reall threat is still out there and the world isnt saved'. It would be much cooler if sylens would take of in the airship of the zeniths and that the whoman from the zenitsh would not have told you about nemisis. That way sylens would in fact be still a bit of a mysterious bad guy and he would had used aloy all along and not be this kind of good guy he now sudenly had become. Furthermore the nemesis thing would still be a mystery and something to look forward to instead of explaining everything right away about it near the end of the game.
But thats just small things, overall this game is amazing. I didnt rushed trough the main quests and fully explored most of the world. The world, the huge machine fights, the lore, the graphics, everything is just breathtaking and the strongest point of the game for me is the combat (shooting not melee). This is one the best open world games, its so much fun to explore and do all this stuff in it.
I hope in the sequel the work more on character development, the climbing stuff and melee stuff. Oh yeah and by the way GG, please slow down or stop time when scanning machines, thank you 😬
Def a 4 out of 5 for me. Best PS5 game so far.
I never really had a problem with aloy as a character. I feel like her feeling are expressed through her actions. Like I don't think they need to have her day it out loud because she let here friends in and went on their side quests. If you never did the side quests I could see her motivations being confusing. The moment I walked into the base i could see her making friends and hanging out and I feel like they delivered.
Maybe I'm rambling but I didn't think she felt off.
I'm seeing a bunch of comments that are along with my thoughts. So I'm glad I'm not crazy. Lol. I felt like she opened up pretty well. The gameplay did feel clunky in the platforming and traversal. But I felt like they nailed everything else. Sometimes the machines in the arena felt like they could just knock you down forever at times, and I got glitched into a wall 2 or 3 times.
And I thought the Varl death was a little unnecessary. I feel like they could have had him mortally wounded and just had him sit out the rest of the game instead of just killing him. I would have loved seeing him go back to the Nora with zo.
But those are really my only two complaints. Varl felt cheap and there was some traversal jank. Otherwise well worth the 77 hours it took to platinum.
It’s a bummer that y’all clearly skipped a lot of optional conversations, that’s some of the best parts of the game. What Barrett said about Tilda and ourv Elizbet’s relationship was so dumb, there’s a great conversation you can have with Tilda about how close they got and how they drifted apart, so what you say is patently wrong. You also miss so much more personality from Aloy. Also how is Greg going to say Aloy does good things to be good, and act Vanilla ass Superman is a good character. He’s the epitome of that.
Also I just don’t agree with them about Varl’s death. This game does such a great job for representation for POC, so it’s a bummer that Varl is being viewed as just a token black character killed in a game. His character was so much more than that and that moment was so meaningful and upsetting (I yelled “no” when it happens).
Just completed the game except the small bandit camps: Love it and love the story, but the ending didn't feel as emotional as Zero Dawn.
REALLY LIKED:
- the Beta/ Aloy connection
- How Heph fought and escaped the zeniths and now is smarter, which means more advanced machines in the future
-Varl dying meaning anything could happen
-The conversations at the base giving important details about the story
DIDN'T LIKED:
- the metroidvania elements of the open world, which made me wait to explore everything
- few missions in the best area of the game, island of San Francisco.
-long time until the story gets really going in the Hades Lab
- spoilers in the side missions descriptions about the flying mount
Why did you guys spare Regalia? She was a crazy murderer. She ruined a great chance for peace and killed a bunch of innocent and then you get to kill her and are like, no shes suffered enough
Yep I killed her in a second haha
I spared her so there was someone I didn't care about that I could throw at the zeniths and their robots. Also she wanted me to kill her
@@DarkElfPaladin ha ok I like those reasons.. still you get a bow if you kill her. You miss it if you don't. Or you need to loot it from her body? I'm not clear on that since I didn't spare her
@@markheath14 no bow, but I looked it up and no tear precision arrows on it so it wouldn't make it into my normal kit. So I'm ok missing it. Hekarro does give you some armor after. Not sure if he does that if you kill her. I think it was called Tenakth High Marshal
Anyone else thinks Ceo looks like Tim?
I thought he looked familiar and I couldn’t think of who he reminded me of until I just read this comment. He does look like Tim.
Should I point out the elephant in the room that Elisabet was a queer woman. So being her genetic clone, you’d think Aloy would be one as well? No offense to the MEN introduced so far (Varl came close but that only lasted a couple of hours), I just think that Aloy has yet met someone who is at her level. Maybe in the sequel, a sick-ass woman will come along and help her defeat Nemesis 🤓
Talanah, my guy. She was jealous AF when she found out Talanah was into some other guy.
I am skipping Baren's thoughts because he just dislikes it . Everything done there : that's bad for him .
He doesn't feel hooked. Do the side quests . Talk with them regularly after each mission , companion missions . You will get attached . Have you visited the memorial of Varl and listened to aloy speaking with his late friend.
You don't get the story or emotions because you didn't try .
Absolutely incredible sci fiction story .
Horizon Forbidden West is awesome.
I got to the last boss fight and ran out of berries, meds and effective ammo. I had to go back to an old save to upgrade my pouches.
I'm getting this, even though I still haven't finished Horizon 1. Horizon 1 had a problem dragging the plot across the finish line. Judgement had the same problem. It was like both games were longer than they needed to be for me to want to finish them.
don't have underwater enemies that you can't fight back while underwater
You can get the trophy if you scan the final boss and then die on final boss. My trophy poped as soon as i scanned it.
after the first game i wanted to fight a horus so bad and im sad we didnt get to this time. if we dont fight one of those big ass bastards next time im gonna riot.
Well even just one of this things reviving would probably end the world Because it would replicate
I feel like some of the fleshing out of the characters may be better if you talk to them every time you complete a main mission. There is a lot that you miss without talking to them all
Jesus, I had to stop listening to this. Everyone else in the comments already said it, but you guys REALLY missed a lot of great story beats because you obviously rushed thru this game. As a fan of yours, that really disappointing guys
I feel like Janet and Blessing, like myself, might bea little off base on our take about the token Black character dies trope in this game. I think it's been done so many times in other games that a death like that would trigger us. I haven't played this game yet but I immediately felt that, "not this sh** again" feeling in my gut when Varl's death was revealed in the show regardless of the game's great representation.
Then again, this isn’t Varl’s first game since he was in Zero Dawn & he ends up going out a hero trying to protect Beta.
@@Phanthief95 that's why I said it's not tropey, but it feels that way, if that makes sense.
@@furrybproductions It definitely doesn’t feel tropey either because if it were anyone else from Aloy’s group that died, it wouldn’t have the same impact as Varl since he’s kinda the heart of the group.
He was able to curtail Aloy & Erend’s worst tendencies (like Aloy always wanting to do everything by herself or Erend’s constant drinking), he developed a flirtatious relationship with Zo, & he was the first person that Beta opened up to.
Anyone else & it wouldn’t have the same impact.
I think you might be screwed on that trophy, Janet.
I agree completely with the clunkiness of movement and the story not being great so I'm not trying to blindly defend the game. But in terms of the map and open world design, I've found the options for HUD elements fixes this problem. I keep on main quest markers but turn off everything else. Makes the game feel a lot more about discovery rather than check marks. It actually changes the whole feel of the game.
I had this real weird thing for about 5 minutes (now mind you i've had a drink or two) wondering what happened to Janet. Then I went to kinda funny channel and used Find to see her on the last 2 PS I
Hi everyone!
I don’t understand why Tilda decides to fight and presumably attempt to kill Aloy at the end? maybe I missed something?
Tilda wanted to take Aloy with her to get away from Nemesis because she saw her as her second chance with Elizabet Sobeck, who she loved.
Aloy refused & Tilda wasn’t going to kill her but take her by force.
@@Phanthief95 ah that makes more sense, thanks!
Beat the game and got the platinum 2 days ago.
I killed Regalla, lol.
If you have an optional conversation with Tilda before the last mission she confesses that her and Elizabet were in a relationship, makes that last line not weird if you talk to her
I like the game but it's just ok to me not great by any means. Combat is still clunky imo, climbing and whatnot is infuriating at times and there's too much damn dialogue for side quests.
It's just start it will be misunderstood and overlooked a lot at the end of the year. I love this game and it is my game of the generation, I hope that the third one comes really soon.