Frank Zappa Conductor Score and Musical Problems
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- Опубликовано: 5 июл 2024
- A look at the conductor score for Frank Zappa's "Bob in Dacron and Sad Jane" and some of the perceived musical problems.
NOTE: At 01:32 in this video, I discuss 2 bars consisting of 11/16 and 15/16 and how these could be interpreted as substitutions for 11:4 and 15:4. Just to clarify, although these 2 bars could be interpreted as substitutions for facilitating the "economy of means", they do not share the same time space. The 11/16 will occupy less time than the 11:4 because in 11/16, the denominator is simply a division, and therefore the 11 semiquavers are just that, not actually 11 in the time of 16, which is why it occupies less time, because we are not getting the full 11 against 16, rather 11 against 11 in this context. Therefore, the 11:4 means the 11 is played in the time of 16, which is why it would occupy more time, this of course also applies to the 15/16 and 15:4 interpretations. 
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Having been a ZAPPA fanatic for 50 years, I am so pleased when someone with advanced musical knowledge examines Frank's music in a way that makes it even more interesting to me, and somehow more personal, at a level I could not have otherwise known. Thank you, Mr. Hanspal!
Spot on mate. You took the words right out of my mouth!
You're welcome and thank you for watching.
I love that phrase, about Zappa "never giving the audience exactly what they want". So true. Like you, I stick around, waiting for the magical moments of Zappa magic in even the most obscure of tracks or performances. When it strikes, nothing is more satisfying.
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I believe Frank would have considered your conclusion of "imbalance" to be high praise.
Sad Jane is one of FZ's greatest orchestral pieces for me, very beautiful which in places reminds me of Bernard Herrmann. Your analysis are incredible Chanan
Thank you Andy. Best wishes.
Absolutely fantastic! Thank you Hanspal for this analysis. I think Zappa compose his music for this century. He was really ahead of his time. It's a great pleasure to listen to someone who really understands Zappa's music making these analysis of his scores. Thank u
...so, @ChananHanspal, thank you so much for this. I'm listening to Sad Jane as I'm typing... haven't had it on the CD player for years, but I have always felt this was an incredibly moving piece and (for me at least) one of the easiest of his orchestral works (prior to Yellow Shark) to connect with.
I actually think that the title "Sad Jane" is a part of that for me: I think it immediaely disposed me to listen in a very sympathetic way and there are many points within it where I feel it shows great tenderness... not a word that often springs to mind with Zappa. As
@paulm7243 remarks, there are these moments in Zappa's music that are so rewarding and satisfying to the listener... but so rare! and therefore so precious. I think that's one of the things that elevates music from all other arts in its effect on us: music is an experience we must "go through"; if we try to stop it, it breaks. So a composition must be experienced as it is played, which means we are subject to a sequence of sounds and we must go on a journey with the composer and performers. I would love to know if Zappa deliberately buried treasures on the often difficuly journeys he takes us on... but that will remain a mystery, I guess. I'm so grateful to you as a musical explorer, adventurer, philosopher and talent for bringing us together to speculate on such matters.
I remember finding my first treasure when I began listening (soon, fanatically so) to Zappa in 1986. It was on a double cassette which included the Tinseltown Rebellion live version of Brown Shoes.
(BTW, as I've aged, I've come to feel really troubled by the content of this and many other of Zappa's songs which, as a teenager, I connected to with blithe ignorance of what their subject matter entailed. I'm very glad I got into Zappa before my frontal lobes had fully formed because that has enabled me to simultaneously love and hate different aspects of some of his works. Frankly (ha!), if I was listening for the first time to Brown Shoes or Magdelena as a 50-something-year-old, I'm not sure I could stomach the way Zappa used certain topics in an ostensibly humourous framing (even if those events had actually happened, as was the case with the Illinois bandit). I do wonder what his intentions were at the time he wrote those tunes, and whether they changed over time. And I also wonder about the extent to which this kind of material sat comfortably with his musicians (or "sits" in the case of son Dweezil and ensemble)... but that's a digression for later.)
Anyhow, I found treasure buried in the segue from Brown Shoes to Peaches III at 6:58 (music.ruclips.net/video/72G17JV0j2E/видео.html). I remember thinking "Why doesn't Frank write more music like that? It's such a straightforwardly lovely surprise." Maybe one answer is that it would have ruined the surprise?
Thank you very much for your kind comments and sharing your thoughts with us, much appreciated. Best wishes.
Thanks Chanan 😀 as always , your insight and understanding is educational and entertaining .More please .
I have heard a few mixed reviews on Bob in Dacron and Sad Jane from experts who study score and composition. Strangely it’s made me love these pieces more. I’d love to hear another video about Mo and Herbs vacation. This long piece has this tiny tranquil bit in the middle and I swear I would persevere an awful lot of the hard core turbulence of this piece just to experience this tiny beautiful bit!
Thank you Chanan. Clear and spot on explanation of those 2 scores and pointing out certain idiosyncrasies too. Really enjoyed it. You and Rick Beato are the Ken Burns of this current century AFAIC!
Thank you. Best wishes.
I've been performing Frank's music for well over fifty years. His odd time signatures have been challenging, but rewarding once you get it down. Not that many people , "Get it" unless you're a musician or know how to read his music. Long live the greatness of the maestro, Frank Zappa. "CRANK SOME FRANK.'
If I'm correct the only full score of Frank's thats avalible is sinister footwear. In pdf form. I had the whole thing printed out so I can atleast see it in physical form. I can't be more greatful that you were able to inform us with the few pages you were able to share! What a great find! Thanks for sharing! 😁
You're welcome and thank you for watching.
Enjoyed your analyzation and critique very much
Re FZ's comment on Sad Jane: "The last movement of "Sad Jane," kind of a marching thing, is actually a transcription of a guitar solo from the Shrine Auditorium, 1968, that Ian Underwood wrote out back then, and I came across one day in a pile of papers. I played it on the piano and liked the tune, and proceeded to orchestrate it." I always thought it would be interesting to 'reverse engineer' that part of the piece to hear what it sounds like on the guitar. Perhaps identifying the (no doubt modified for orchestra) chords of that section would lead to understanding during which song the guitar solo originally took place at the Shrine in '68. It's very likely beyond my skills though!
Sounded very much like an "Inca Roads" solo to me which is I believe was derived from early solos including Holiday in Berlin...
Terrific analysis, Chanan. I tend to have a dual relationship with FZ's music; I've adored his rock canon for close to 40 years, but his orchestral works leave me cold, and a little baffled. I always get that inference of "experimentation", as you've noted; like the orchestral canvas was his way of emptying his creative tank and throwing every conceivable idea on to the page, which sounds exciting in theory, but in practice often leads to an incoherent, unsatisfying listening experience. Yes, all composers inevitably bear the hallmarks of their influences, but in FZ's concert works it is all too easy to play "spot the influence"; a Bartok celestial string passage here, a Stravinsky hiccupping ostinato there, a Varese cacophony right around the bend. This is not to say that FZ didn't have his own voice; he certainly did. But that voice found its fullest annunciation within the rock song / rock ensemble paradigm, where structural articulation and narrative are aided with lyrical content. With purely instrumental music (concert music, specifically) the germinal ideas require deeper mining, and elements need to be balanced, regardless of tonal approach. Witness Lutoslawski's or Ligeti's most challenging (for the listener, I mean) works; there's always an architectural substrate that frames the work, allowing the listener to draw reasonable inferences in regards to the logic and sequence of the musical events comprised therein. But hey...few things are as beautiful as "Village of the Sun" or as exciting as the gtr solo section of "Packard Goose", so at the end of the day, who gives a f*ck. :)
I seem to recall (either from an interview I read, or perhaps in the The Real Frank Zappa Book (Frank Zappa/Peter Occhiogrosso) Zappa complaining bitterly about the LSO and repeated and untimely rehearsal breaks.
It may be (as you hypothesize) that for Bob in Dacron the orchestra was underrehearsed for the piece. If I am recalling what FZ said in one of the sources above accurately, that may be what it was. Maybe it's just asking too much of the players (???) Would have been nice to hear a rendering of "Bob ..." on the Synclavier.
BBC Radio 3's schedule for Wednesday March 27 2024 (1930 GMT) features the City of Birmingham Orchestra conducted by Ilan Volkov in concert in a programme that includes Frank Zappa's 'Bob in Dacron and Sad Jane'.
Excellent video
Sad Jane is my favorite of Zappa's orchestral works and his most beautiful... I believe there is a section of Sad Jane that was created from one of Zappa's guitar solos that was trancscribed and orchestrated...
Thanks so much. Always loved Sad Jane.
Yeah, there’s something incredibly moving about it… I am going to have to put it on right now!
Hang on a sec… now Channan is picking many of my favourite bits … such good taste 🤣
You're welcome and thank you for watching.
Great music . Genius . So much substance .
That was excellent, there’s plenty more material to look at 😉 😂👍
Great stuff. interesting that the passage you highlight at 10:55 is clearly marked pizz. in the score (and are those Bartók pizzicati too?) is arco in the recording - presumably FZ made the changes at the recording sessions (IIRC) some of the drum/percussion parts in the score (and in other works) don't match up with the LSO recordings
Incredible!!!!
WOW consider me green with envy. what an object to get to hold!
Fascinating. Would love if the sheet music on screen had a cursor or visual guide line since my ears and eyes just cannot connect the notation to the sounds in this advanced composer stuff. 🙂
"The first section, subtitled “Bob’s Clothes,” is a musical description of patterns which do not blend and textures only a ‘BOB’ could love" -FZ
Those things are great. I've got the conductor score for Bogus Pomp from back when Barfko sold them. They're fascinating to study!
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I conducted three of FZ's orchestral works back in the mid-90s: "Girl in the Magnesium Dress," "Be-Bop Tango," and "G-Spot Tornado." (I believe they were orchestrated by Ali N. Askin, not Zappa.) Only G-Spot was bound, the others were photocopies (which i still have around here...somewhere).
Had he only lived!
So the first few bars of Dacron, its a sailor stumbling around on deck after too much rum in heavy seas..
no, it's Bob dashing around his bedroom trying on different mismatched clothing ensembles
NEVER heard of this. Ever!!!
Another thoughtful analysis. Sad Jane is a personal favourite - Chanan, are you familiar with The Trio Cucamonga's version? A really beautiful take on the material. Thanks again for your output👌🏻
m.ruclips.net/video/2QMejf75deo/видео.html
Whatever happened to Zappa's "Barking Pumpkin" sheet music mail order? Years ago, I ordered The Black Page for drumset through Barking Pumpkin, but I understand the sheet music publishing went away after Frank's death.
4:34 has a Schoenberg feel to it. Which makes sense, as he named Schoenberg as a musical influence.
Thanks a lot!)
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Good evening, it is not surprising that F Zappa asked selected conductors to conduct his music. There is a video on which Pierre Boulez comments on one of his scores to Stravinsky. Master in this place do this it will go better..
I always felt that these two pieces have never really had a convincing performance that let the music come out clearly. Just performances where the notes were played as best they could. Though I also always felt maybe the music gets a bit lost in the orchestration and lushness rather than allowing for the rhythms and melodies to be more distinct if played in a much smaller ensemble. Even something like the "mystery rehearsal piece" melody took me ages to spot in Bob In Dacron even though I had learnt it and transcribed it and jammed it... it was just a bit lost in the lush. But.... great video!!!
Thank you.
I am no where near a musician but I notice there is "rock style" added to the performances. As Zappa is also a huge rock star, they may get influenced by his career. I wonder if today's crazy level technology along with AI can be experimented with these scores. By real musicians of course.
It's a long way from WPLJ. That's for sure!
Glad to see there’s a score of Zappa available. However, be aware his estate is litigious. Be sure that score is legal before displaying it publicly.
I'm a Frank Zappa Fanatic too
When/how/will this score ever be available?
Of the three orchestral albums I have owned, my two favorite are the Yellow Shark and the Perfect Stranger Boulez conducts Zappa. LSO is my least favorite of the three. One thing I like about Perfect Stranger is that Boulez didn't have an orchestra to accommodate some of these large older pieces and commissioned new pieces by Zappa. I think it brought out a side of Zappa I had never heard before. I am fond of the orchestration of the title piece The Perfect Stranger and Dupree's Paradise. I think we probably lost more great new pieces brought about by his premature death. I think the reception of the Yellow Shark would have brought about many more commissions and fresh pieces. I know Dupree's Paradise was an older rock/fusion work but the Boulez version has significant and pleasant differences.
is this score unavailable, these days?
They didn't have daws back then so he could not get a little sense of what it would sound like. It would have been different if he had a DAW to do a mock-up
Varese said: "Experimental? All my experiments go in the trash." I think FZ would have said the same.
where have you buy it?
I can’t believe frank wrote so much music
A serious musician with his own unique sense of humor.
Is there a backstory in the score? I always wondered why Jane is sad.
Jane is a bag lady
The noise gate you're using is SUPER distracting.
as to the (I never heard of the guy) academic's 'free succession of unrelated themes' criticism, this was precisely Varese's M.O.
I think FZ took a bit too much pleasure in trying to 'break' musicians. Auditions for his rock band were notoriously gruelling and challenging, but I suspect he met his match when he composed pieces for orchestra.
Unlike aspiring rock stars with a great deal of talent but not necessarily years and years of experience of musical theory, classical players have seen it all before. Orchestral auditions are pretty intimidating, so Mr Zed would have been dealing with people who could read and play anything on sight, and who'd simply raise an interested eyebrow when confronted by a 'difficult' modern score.
I hope Frank got satisfaction from his 'classical noodlings'. It'd be disappointing to find that he was motivated more by a need to test performers' abilities and assert his dominance as top dog than to create meaningful music.
Hee hee. Perhaps you get the sense that Zappa just wanted to write music and not really organise it so meticulously.
Notation is weird. What's written down on paper is no more than a way to suggest to the players how the song should go. I always say that's why we call notes "notes."
Sadly, much of Zappa's "orchestral" pieces were created by using machine generated algorithms ... software and hardware ... synclavier et al .
And this is reflected in the actual listening and sadly lacking emotional experience.
I greatly admire the genius of much of Zappa's work ... but the machine built orchestral stuff ... why Frank ... just WHY?
Bob in Dacron was written in the 70s. You mightn't like it, but it's nothing to do with it being written by machines.
Danny Elfman is ten times the composer Zappa ever was without all the self serving bullshit and unlistenable music. PEEIOD!
strange to juxtapose just them. they are from 2 completely different worlds
@@golafs Always found Zappa to be so full of himself and couldn’t stand his music. Pure masturbation to me.
Hi Chanan, Thanks for the, as always, awesome video and congratulations on receiving the score! About those bars you are discussing and mentioning in the description: I like your theory on it and "that" as a method could work as substitutions elsewhere. Some back story: Those bars are part of an early piece by Frank named "Wind Quintet". The score was available through Barfko Swill but it was never recorded yet later to be included in Bob In Dacron/ Sad Jane. However, I was lucky to recieve a copy of "Wind Quintet" and had the pleasure to type it into Sibelius.
Here´s the link: ruclips.net/video/vSdF7NpmeqQ/видео.html
sib. file that sucker!!!! (then send me it! lol)