I think this about Te being accurate and Ti being precise: Ti sacrifices what works now for the truth, because Ti knows that eventually, the truth will be better and more accurate than the current Te system, even if it means rebuilding it.
Haha true, that makes a lot of sense! I meant to say that Ti is looking for accurate axioms and Te is looking for precise outcomes as said by Binyamin (video linked in the description 🙂). I'm wondering if those two words can be used interchangeably. As it's hard to convey what you're actually saying due to the limits of language.
I think you're on the right path, but as a Ti dom, I context that use of "accuracy" for Te. My understanding of Te's main focus is "UTILITY", not accuracy. Precision and Accuracy are basically the same things to me, just to different degrees or "saturation" levels. (And Te falls well below the threshold for even "accurate" to me, haha. Just "what works, right now". Te is like the "minimum viable product" version of Ti. ) Ti doms like me and Binyamin argue that it's NEVER acceptable to be at "minimum viable logic" level, but in reality, I have to admit, there are LOTS of times where it's "fine". But there's also a TON of times where I think Se-levels of logic (inductive) are being used for very NOT FINE outcomes. My relevant to 2020 example: Trying to use Se to determine if racism exists when you live in a rural white area. (I was born into a conservative, white area like this btw, and am now a "principled" socialist so I think about this frequently.) If you use Te to analyze your environment, you'll say "Yes, racism may exist, but it's very minor in effect.", which is enough logic to "get you through", as long as you rarely interact with non-white folks. As soon as you zoom out or even adjust your view to different areas and demographics, it falls apart and even falls WELL below typical Te acceptance levels for "problem" solving. (Less than a minimum viable product in, for instance, an area where there's more parity in racial distribution like basically ANY city.) So, with that one example, I hope I've outlined the difference between inductive Te (That can be useful NOW, but almost never WIDELY applicable) VS deductive Ti. (The pursuit of a solution or idea that works equally well for EVERYONE or as well as physically possible within the limits of actual physics and reality. Note: NOT what's "doable" within arbitrary existing but malleable restraints, such as "what the majority of people will accept".) With that said, I think ISTPs have more of that "slave to truth" feeling that he's mentioning here, compared to INTPs. I think that's very likely due to his Ni vs my Ne (I nickname Ne "The lying function", lol.), I can choose to VIOLATE the truth and not really feel THAT bad about it as long as I feel like the impact is non-existent or minimal, OR, more likely, I'm still "shopping" for a solution. His vegetarian/vegan argument is a great example. I eat meat, but my Ni-dom wife is vegan. I know everything she does but can't bring myself to live that "truthfully". I admit I'm a shithead, morally, but it just doesn't... Bug me as much as it does her? I'd prefer to change our government and culture to de-emphasize meat and factory farming rather than decide to "live my truth" as the first step. Change the system, "personal responsiblitiy" is basically worthless on the sociatal level.
OMG, his "awkward Fe" at 25:00 was ADORABLE!! My ISTP brother is like that too. It's SOOOOOO WARM and SWEEEEET!!! As an INTJ, I really admire that. I could only DREAM of having Fe that good. 💖
Ironic that you see that as good Fe because it's so not intentional. If he could, he would not express the awkward Fe. It would be a smooth and effortless use of Fe. It's good to know that people view 'awkward' Fe positively. In the moment it feels like you're just messing up.
My advice re 26:15 (on the off chance that it's helpful) is that when you find yourself in that situation where there is "no reason to go or not to go", then use that as your opportunity to respect your Fi. You guys really NEED to do that more for your own well-being. If there is no reason to say yes and you don't want to go, then don't go. That's it. Just honor your feelings and don't go. Your feelings matter just as much as your reasons, even though you don't see that. They really do. You don't HAVE to let that Fe take over and do what the other people want. You can honor your boundaries. That's the healthy thing to do.
Holy crap! I literally had 2 hours wasted in a group assignment on friday. The other people in the group were planning out the assignment and I tried to tell them they got the assignment wrong. Then I tried telling them they were doing another part completely backwards and two of them (one in particular) got really upset and started arguing hard against me saying I was being disruptive and tried to make me feel bad for questioning everything. It was insane, but seeing this video really made me feel better about it. Good stuff! 🙏
probably he was not trying to make u feel bad but he was living up to what he values Fi the problem is ur Fe for making that momentary feeling blind u from The Fi value
For me as an intp it's funny what he says about Ti not being about logic, but about truth, because for me it's pretty different. Because he uses Se he's filtering though facts and figuring out what's true, but for me using Ne I'm filtering through concepts and possibilities and figuring out what's plausible or possible. To be able to do that I need to have consistent logic, but I can never find one objective truth, because that's not how I see the world. I think trying to find what's true is not inherent to Ti, but more a combination of Ti and Se, whereas the combination of Ti and Ne results more in looking for what's plausible. I have to constantly challenge my Ti thinking with new Ne perspectives, whereas Binyamin is likely challenging his Ti beliefs with Se facts. The only way to stop this Ti Ne thinking loop is to tell myself I still need to sleep I still need to brush my teeth I still need to eat. That gets me back into ''reality.'' If I don't do that I go on an endless loop where I question everything and it's mother and god and the universe itself and I just get completely disconnected.
INTJ here. When I was younger, in college, I often took notes, especially if the professor was prone to go went off on tangents that could not be easily found in the textbook but would likely be on the test. But now that I'm older, I never take notes anymore because it distracts me from really listening to the speaker. You can't truly multi-task (take notes AND integrate what someone is saying into your framework of understanding at the same time). If you want to really hear the person and integrate what they are saying, then you have to give them your full attention. I always understand better if I am listening actively. I will get the notes later to use if I need them.
I relate heavily with this. The past few semesters in college, note taking always felt like a distraction from understanding the material during the lecture. If I didn't understand it in the moment as I wrote it down, looking at it again later on with even less context wouldn't help at all with learning either. I felt myself doing better when I took less detailed notes and just listened during class. Very much a flow state during those times. I also never looked at old notes to study for a test because it felt like I should already know the essence by then, and scanning would only give a surface understanding. Maybe this kind of learning style was suited for the free response type problems on my engineering exams. The pure recall type questions would be the worst.
Very relatable. I was fortunate to have a History professor who would write notes, drawings, and diagrams for the first part of the lecture across all the blackboards, and we were to copy them down (leaving space between segments for our own notes) before he started his lecture. And I use the term lecture loosely here, because the man was a superb storyteller. There are things I will never forget from that class because of the way he brought them to life. Once the first board of notes was done, he'd erase and write/draw more as he spoke, giving us time to get it all down where there were natural breaks in the story. Made me wish more teachers in general could be as captivating!
I suck at taking notes. If I try to take notes I'll miss what they're saying, as you said it's too distracting. Then I won't understand what my "notes" mean.
I love that you (Binyamin) are using your Ti for OP good. My Ni tells me OP is legit and they are truly on to something; so I am grateful for your Ti critiques which will help OP become stronger. And yes, doing that for your integrity makes you more credible for those times when you would argue in their favor.
This is so good. I can feel my comment-typing fingers warming up. I'm only at 3:36 and am so piqued by what Binyamin is saying re Ti truth compared with Te's truth awareness. As an extroverted function, Te naturally sees and wants to absorb Ti. But Ti can't see Te. The same happens with Ne
I visibly cringed when Joyce mentioned criticism being a lack of respect. But I agree 100% with him as an INTP. If you get REAL constructive criticism from me, that's proof I am SERIOUSLY invested in you and/or your projects. "[blank] sucks" is the feedback I give people or things I don't respect. But trying to find a solution or at least identify exactly WHY I feel something is wrong or false or not the best approach is what I define as respect.
Very insightful and detailed interview! I wish I would have seen this sooner. I particularly liked the analogy about a predictive system and the results: well both would prefer truth and efficiency, a Te user would choose the model that produces the better predictive results even if based on erroneous data, whereas the Ti user prefers the model built on premises which are absolutely true, even if the results are less accurate than the other one. The most interesting everyday life example I could think of would be two friends both trying to lose weight and how and why they would choose their respective diets and workout programs. The Te user would choose the one that helps them lose weight even if it's based on eating crap and having an an odd workout routine "whatever works," whereas the TI user would stick to the science, even at the cost of some efficiency and time with regard to quick weight loss.
Essentially yeah. Funnily enough, the essence of Ni is the search for the single skeleton that everything in the world is built upon. Simplification is the key word.
Wow. This was such an interesting video guys. I use Ti as my third function and it was fascinating to hear this discussion. It articulated a lot of things that I knew on some level, but had never heard anyone speak about. This was really great!
Thanks for sharing the interview! What an in-depth dive to Ti from Binyamin and you asked all the pertinent questions. Well done! What was new to me was something I suspected but could never confirm from Ti users was when faced with a dilemma with no logical answer, their judgment freezes and they default to their Fe (Paraphrased). As a Fi Ne user, when faced with a situation where I feel the doors closing on every opportunity to resulting in severing a close relationship, I can freeze up and default to Te rage to lash out at close family members. Well, maybe I need to rewatch this to get more insights. Love the video!
It's always enjoyable to read your comments, Andrew! Yes when Ti is faced with a decision with no clear logical answer, they might default to Fe. Interesting to hear about the Fi-Te parallel to this. Thank you for sharing. :)
It is very fitting for the Decider (Binyamin) to refer more to the users of Ti and Te and the Observer (Joyce) referring to the functions as separate objects. Also: Binyamin gets bonus points for being vegetarian.
This is a fascinating discussion. This explains a lot of the conversations between me (INTJ) and my Mom (INFJ). In college, I would always talk about my science/math classes with her and she would always struggle to follow, not because she isn't smart (she's brilliant) but because she needed to follow all the logic with her Ti but didn't have the facts to do so, for example when I would talk about genetics or calculus or physics. One time when I was talking about calculus, she was telling me that she is good at lower math because she can see how it all connects but as soon as I would get into higher algebra, trig and calculus, I would lose her. She told me it was because the connections could no longer be seen. Whereas, me, with my Te and Ni, I was able to easily make As in calculus because of my intuitive leaps. I didn't even know how I knew the right answers in algebra and calculus but I just always did and I know it was very much because of my intuition. On the flip side, I was horrible in organic chemistry (I was just glad to make a C in that class) because it's SO TEDIOUS and detailed and not subject to the use of intuition as much as just rote memorization. My ISTJ roommate aced organic chemistry though. Oh, and it's so true about Te caring more about effectiveness than ultimate facts. As a grad student, I thought I was more of a Ti person (although I didn't know it by that name) because of my critical parent Ti but later realized that Te is much higher in the stack for me. I am mainly concerned that something WORKS.
Orgo chem isn't as rote as u think it is. At the beginning it feels like rote because each carbon group has its own properties, but when you dig deeper you find they're all based on the same fundamentals. The only rote stuff is the names for each group (oh and all the f*cking reagents, sometimes I forget some of them even exist).
@@bananewane1402 LOL, "f*cking reagents" YES!! I only took 2 semesters of organic chem and then moved on to other subjects so never got deep into it enough to see the patterns you mention although I would have had I gone into medicine or something. That's cool to know organic chem is like that too!
that is by far the best video on Ti cant agree more. this has actually made me accept my own dominant Ti. also I find it quite weird that i would want to have a long chat with benyamin and discuss about my own theories about cognitive functions but at the same time i would be quite reluctant to do so because i dont want to jeopardize my theoretical framework.
I find it extremely exhausting to discuss something with another Ti dom, even if we are not even disagreeing. I wonder why is that.. maybe 2 masculine Ti just clash idk. We like to tell ourselves how Ti is about "the truth", and yet this happens. Maybe it reveals how subjective or selfish Ti actually is (or maybe i'm just weird).
Here's what frustrates Ti about Te. Assume a square peg and a round hole. The square peg doesn't fit. Ti says, "Okay we need to find a round peg that has a diameter the same size of the inside edge. Te will be happy to find a triangular peg narrow enough to fit in the same hole and turn to Ti accusing it of wasting time, like it was obvious that the peg could have been any peg.
It would be SUPER FUN to see a panel with high-level thinkers (INTP, ISTP, INTJ, ISTJ, ENTP, ESTP, ENTJ and ESTJ) comparing and contrasting Te and Ti. Or maybe split it up between the N's and S's in one panel and then the doms and auxilliary's in another panel for the sake of not having too many people in one panel? I think that would be extremely elucidating.
Binyamin’s Ti categorizing classifications are so precise and in-depth that I’m starting to question if I’m ISTP or ESTP... Maybe it’s just my Ti lacking experience.
Age and life circumstances play a big part in it too; I hope you're able to figure out your type. Perhaps this series I'm creating will help you with that. :)
Trying typing yourself through your inferior function. Do you tend to struggle the most with social and emotional problems (Fe) or avoid thinking about the future and planning for it (Ni)?
@@JoyceMeng22 I love that! I wonder if she'd be an INFJ in OP. It seemed like she had a lot of big decider freakouts during her road to irrelevence, but I also feel that the T.Robbens human needs might not necessarily indicate someones dominant function 100% of the time. Or atleast OP types don't 100% translate to MBTI/Jungian types all the time. - I was wondering, Joyce, if you take notes? You're Ti saviour afterall. :) I never did either and now try to take notes to remember sensory stuff. (It doesn't work cause I don't check them, but atleast I can tell myself I tried)
@@NicStride True; Pucokie is an INFJ in my taxonomy so that's all I'm looking for. =] I don't strictly go by any theory, preferring to independently figure out the cognitive functions for myself. I normally take notes *after* lectures. Like Binyamin said, taking notes distracts Ti. I prefer to write down my own takeaways as well rather than just the lesson itself
@@JoyceMeng22 I think she's INFJ too, hence the ramble on systems not lining up. I assume you believe in shadow functions? I see an Fi in INFJs, which I find super fascinating, because it's a totally different expression of Fi than what I see in people who have that function in the first 4 slots. It could be Fe and Ti coming together to emulate Fi, but somehow it feels like a mature-er Fi than actual Fi users, somehow. I wish I could express what I'm seeing more eloquently and concisely. :)
@@JoyceMeng22 I've done what you described about making notes of my own takeaways after a lecture, and they're often so abstract that when I've moved on with my life, if I try to use them to revise, I'm desperately looking for the note to trigger an Si association, because they're written in a shorthand which is so idiomatic that even I can't comprehend parts of them. Complex ideas get condensed down into something so basic and abstract that it's really not even notes anymore. Literally the opposite of comprehensive. :D
Man, the more I hear y'all talk, the more I think I have pretty strong Ti. I probably can't stack it as high as an INTP or ENTP but I can and definitely need to do it. I TOTALLY have the exact same philosophy when it comes to taking notes. I can't absorb what the professor is saying if I'm writing it down. It's utterly distracting and ineffective. I'll just listen and ask questions if needed and study (including writing out my notes in MY OWN words later. The way Binyamin is describing Ti is something I fully relate to yet I am an INTJ. I recognize what he's saying about how it's annoying when other people don't respect and make space to hash out the Ti because I also crave that, but to me, those people are not manifesting Te (vs Ti) as he has concluded, when they use circular or irrelevant arguments or are just not listening or are glossing over the Ti user. Frankly, they are manifesting being dumb,stupid, impatient, overly confident, immature, etc. A healthy, mature Te user should hear out a Ti user and be swayed by the logic if it bears out. Period. When I see people building on false logic, I do NOT let that slide. I always stop them and clarify before moving on unless it's not important. It probably helps that I have Fi to be able to do that because I'm not so concerned that I'm offending them. ENTP and INTPs have Fe so they (especially the ENTPs) are more reluctant to cause that discomfort?
The more I try to truly understand what Ti is doing the more head scratching it is, same with Fe. I just don’t use those functions often so hearing them explained is like bizarro world. I’m a Te-Fi user so it’s about getting my ideas and tasks done as fast and efficient as possible. Skip all the nonsense and show me the quickest way from A-B so I can move on to what is next.
So insightful about the use of Ti, comming from a family of sibling Te users from what I've experienced of Te it is like the Te user is saying to the Ti user you have to accept the entire premise of an argument or you reject our thinking but I'm like NOOOO I am saying I agree with this part but this other part is swiss cheese and has holes and with poor Fe my rejection is to the point which causes a whole series of problems.SIGH On another note Ti also has a problem when you have many good ideas to move forward and all are equally valid, you can get very stuck because you have no emotional attachment to any, it is just valid not valid there is no Fi to say this means more to ME and you dont trust that the group even knows what it wants or more importantly why they want it.
I think you have touched upon some innate need in Ti lead to go back to originating axioms. Which are a kind of play thing or creative exploration for Ti.
“Attacking falsehood” is why I could not stomach CSJ because he was just triggering so many false alarms 🚨 “Colliding with society” is why I cannot get behind jury duty.
I used to take notes in the university. I think that it depends on the professor & the subject , your knowledge as well. I loved taking notes on Quantum chemistry, solid sate, only - I took them on my own way - I listened, understood, interpreted & then wrote. Then went to the library , read on it , pondered over it & so on.. I have never ever "mindlessly just copied" while taking notes, in my life. In fact my mind worked overtime actually during that short amount of time - I listed to the professor, understood what he/she wanted to say, tried to see the consistency in that theory, tried to see what could be the problem , application etc and then I was writing in my own version as well. I was a "busy" person.
Te MUST be accurate because we are busy and in a hurry when trying to get stuff done so we are relying on the process or system to work for us reliably, preferably like a well-oiled machine. If it's not reliable, then it wastes our time, holds us back and we do not accomplish our goals. That feels bad because we are trying to take care of things for people and if something interferes, then we can't do that.
I'm new here, also ~newby in MBTI world. Started to watch this playlist few days ago ⏯️ My friend from Discord recommend it 👍🏼 Great serial of interviews. I didn't started from E1 (episode 1) ahaha it's fine I guess 😁
26:26 STPs need to trust their Ni gut instinct in these cases. But it’s natural for masculine introverted deciders struggle with fear of being judged by the tribe.
Ti is inductive and deductive. It’s much more flexible than Ni, especially if it has an intuitive function following it to push it several directions. After that thinking and intuition pair is complete, Ti will then go back to build up as a final iteration
The issue I have with the contents of the comment attributed to Damon Gray about Te, is that when you compartmentalize logic like that (although Binyamin didn't mention it I'm sure he was aware of it), you are sure to run into contradictions down the road, to as fundamental principles which are true in one particular time and place, especially ones involving logic, should be applicable universally, And if they are not, Then one of the premises must have been false. I think the biggest example of this is Einstein's theory of relativity contradicting the contemporary models of quantum mechanics; these two laws contradict each other but scientists and technicians continue to use them both to achieve impressive feats. Either one of these theorys is ultimately wrong, or there is a grand theory beyond our current capacity to understand, that reconciles them.
Also, I think the nanobot analogy works to describe those of us who are working out the kinks in our understandings of the various personality typing systems. My own journey in this regard involves trying to build somewhat of a synthesis between these different systems to help alleviate, if not eliminate contradictory results in these respective systems (e.g. "she is an MBTI ENTJ, but an SLE in Model A Socionics, and an Se/Te (ESFP Jumper) in OPS.") I think such a project, although admittingly maybe overly optimistic or ambitious, could, and should be achieved, if we could establish agreement upon specific definitions of the eight functions. Until we are able to achieve this, we will always get people with differing typing results in different systems which, especially to the Te-dominated academic community, greatly diminishes the claims of each of these models both specifically, and collectively.
That anecdote at 17:50 is not a Ti thing I don't think. Te users easily have these understandings as well. For me that would be obvious. In fact I would quickly assume that you were scrolling backwards as soon as I read the second comment and realized the first one was after it in the logical progression. I think Te users build as well. I think the difference is that we interrupt that process if it goes on too long because we feel the pressure to bring an outcome to fruition. So we don't build up AS MUCH as a Ti user. But we can still stack upon premises. And to answer your question, Te (you said Ti but I thought you might have meant Te?) users DO correct each other's incorrect axioms/assumptions. Part of the collaboration process is discussing the correctness or truth, like you would with a Ti user. We also must stop and clarify along the way. To me this is just part of "thinking". You are correct that an Ni dom does not always want to reiterate all the steps. But that is not a good analogy to compare Ni and Te regarding just wanting to get to the point. Ni is WAY more eager to jump to the conclusion than Te in my experience. Remember, Te is RESPONSIBLE for ensuring something works so we are hesitant about any kind of shortcut that could sabotage our end goal. I think the difference is more in that we don't need to come to the conclusion independently. We trust our co-Te users. If we didn't we would not work with them (if we could avoid it). And that trust is given because it is earned in some way. We must be open to trusting each other (unless they give us a reason not to) because you can't reach a goal if you can't work together with others.
Loved this interview (ISTP), added many new insights, for me personally. The aspect I struggled with is with the Ti-Truth concept. Is there a 'truth' which is an actual, real truth being defended or is it a personal, subjective truth? The answer to that question seems to dictate (for me) how virtuous or selfish a Ti really is, the former leading to virtuosity the latter leading to selfishness. Not sure if I've explained it very well, would love some feedback.
Also with regards to Fi, I dislike the term prioritising my feelings, I prefer the lexical term assigning the value to a hierarchy of feelings, much like Ti is determining the truth from a hierarchy of thinking. I have a billion different feelings, some are more important than others, but all are important and have a different use in different situations. When I feel something, I can (unconsciously) assign a level of significance to that feeling, and thus know how important that feeling's value is when I experience it. Eg. Hope has high level importance, happy is medium, annoyance is low importance. Hope that helps explain what Fi and Ti is. I imagine Ti goes through a similar process?
@@Alazsel Good point Andrew, what about "Prioritizing and re-prioritizing priorities" as one of the things that Fi is responsible for? (In addition to the hierarchy of feelings/values you describe)
@@Binyamin.Tsadik Thank you Binyamin. I assume my feelings are in a constant state of flux, trying to gauge what is the feeling that inspires greater importance for the people around me. It's sort of like the Bayesian problem you mentioned, if there is new information to change my priors, then I may change my moral stance on the problem. For example, I previously didn't support gay marriage in Australia because of personal traditional views and the importance I attached to human reproduction as a value. However, my best friend came out as gay and would like to marry under the marriage amendment. I had to change my moral views or risk my friendship and his happiness which I prioritised as a higher importance value than the one of reproduction for the human race. If originally 80:20 importance for reproduction:gay marriage, now it changes to 1:99 for my gay friend. As Bayesian theorem states I should probably multiply the ratios with the actual respective population to calculate the total importance. However if newer information comes in saying human race is becoming extinct and we need to reproduce again, then I would change sides. I would sacrifice my friendship for the sake of the world reproduction.
I would agree that Fi is building beliefs from the ground up. But I have a question for other Fi users out there..."Where is the ground?" I defined my own value system as a teenager but it was not 100% from scratch. I used my own internal sense of empathy as a foundation but also, I did it after examining the fodder of religious, philosophical and spiritual teachings and I continue to adapt my value system as I gain new experiences and expand. With Ti and Fi, we talk about starting at the bottom, but really, NOTHING is original. We are all starting from some base assumption. So nothing is totally from the ground up. For example with logic, you must define your premises. I think we can agree that mathematics and physics for all intents and purposes do indeed start from as close to the ground as one can get but I think most all other things build on top of that.
Ti-Fe: Does the plan or do the newly discovered facts make sense to me and does everyone like it. I think because we want everyone to like our solution we are more thorough and precise as to make sure there is less room for it to not make sense to someone. Te-Fi: Does it make sense to everyone and do i like the result. They don't care if its deep. If the result they get is the result they want and everyone else is okay with the logic then they are fine to stop thinking.
As an ENTP you're probably not saying ''that is false,'' but rather ''that is not neccessarily true'' and then throw a different perspective at them to challenge their belief. Rather than throwing a different fact.
@@amidreaming333 that's rather a cultural nuance. I've heard also phrases "I wouldn't necessarily disagree..." which a way to not agree in an Fe way, whereas in my culture we'd be much more often straightforward.
I have a math riddle application in my phone, and I played it together with my friend that I identify as a Te user. He and I have pretty good skill playing this, but in the way he provided the way he solved it is way more pragmatic, I always kinda offended with that, even if the solution is the same, still I need to know how I know by the truthful method. Maybe now I nearly can see myself better of using Ti.
I was talking with a intj for a while, I was kinda put off by his view to how I have only 13 friends or low likes.. I just care about the friends as i only want those i value , i dont care about the number or how many likes.. its laughable really I love Binyamin, how he so gently guided you back when you were overwhelmed with yr alarm ..
I find it funny you said that Ti- doms don't take notes because they want to figure out their way of logic because I know a guy who I think is a Ti dom that takes notes during sermons of everything he disagrees with theologically aahahaha.
I seem to have this recurring Ti problem with "experts/professionals". When I notice an expert/professional in some field is being inconsistant with his logic, I find it hard to take him seriously from that moment on. So in order to not get tired of such people, I just avoid informing myself or asking questions about their things, so I can take at least them seriously. Do other Ti users have this problem too?
I think all Thinkers use logic. If/Then statements are completely normal and natural for me. I assume they are less natural for high-level feelers? From Joyce's reaction, it seems so.
At 38.20 this infj wanted to say to Binyamin, "welcome to the club" lol.. Fe and Ti do contradict eachother, it's very difficult for me having the 2 in the middle with lead Ni and my Se being sporadic and avoided like the plague much of the time..it's really good in some areas maybe but beginner level at highest in terms of an overall 'command'..
I believe I have two examples of Ti building, adjusting and taking responsibility for its framework. I am hoping you can tell me if these fit what you and Binyamin were discussing. 1) I do guardian ad litem work, and as part of that role I investigate cases and report to the court the facts I have found and my recommendations based on those facts. Assume that while I am testifying, an attorney asks me, "If you found out after you made your report that this new fact occurred, would that change your recommendation?" Because I am responsible for the framework regardless of the outcome, I would say, "With this new fact, my recommendation would change thus..." For me, my recommendations are based on the facts, so if the facts change in a substantive way, then my recommendation must change accordingly, or else my recommendation is useless. 2) In a presidential election year, I am "on the fence" about who is the better candidate. People from both camps try to convince me that if I am not "with them", I must be "against them." These people may be very close to me or complete strangers. But if I believe I don't have all the facts to determine which candidate is better, I won't make a decision even if people think I'm a traitor or wishy-washy. And for me, the "better" candidate is the one who is actually answering questions and not dodging them, whose platform aligns with what they're saying; and whose plan makes sense for the well-being of our citizens. Would both of these be instances of Ti building, adjusting and taking responsibility for its framework?
As an auxiliary Te user,, trained as a scientist who also learned a bit of logic in grad school. It was pretty obvious to me but nice to have the language to be able to articulate it with others. I really enjoy collaborating with other Te users. It's so fun. But I care DEEPLY about ultimate truth and I look at this on a massive scale, global, universal, etc.. I believe looking at objective data points gives me the most accurate measurement of a thing as well as its TRUTH. Regarding that statement he made about Te caring about performance metrics, if you are saying that you don't care about the analytics, but you just care if people are getting value from your videos, then that begs the question, how do you measure that value? In other words, how do you KNOW you actually are creating value? You don't. There is no way to actually know that all by yourself. You can ONLY estimate it and even that is done based off of feedback you are getting (which is nothing more than anecdotal data), which is small sample data. To get closer to ultimate truth, that is done by looking at the data. The best (and really the only VALID) data comes from very large sample sizes. If you are only assessing that value based off your introverted, subjective personal analysis, then no matter how well you've analyzed it, it's still subjective and therefore biased and therefore, potentially, only true to you and select others who share you base assumptions. Finding your own solution is admirable and I wish more people would START there but you can't stop there because there is simply more to it. You have to then take it to the collective, which is why it's been shown that you will always get the best answer when you put the question or problem out to the universe for mass collaboration (I urge you to read "Wikinomics" for a great explanation of this phenomenon). You can't escape the need for assessment/measuring of data and results if you truly want to know the ultimate truth of a thing. The only real way to know is through measuring the response you get which is truth reflecting back to you from the collective, which is infinitely more objective and possessing greater, broader perspective. Te is constantly doing that objective measurement and understanding the results....or at least that is what I do, so it may be combination of my Ni and Te/Ti (I have thinking as my creative function - the 2nd and 6th slots). But this I think is mostly Te, which is why so much of science is based on it. And if you want to go one step further, you have to admit that even objective truth is only valid to the extent that we agree on it because there is pretty good evidence that "reality" is actually an illusion based on the collective agreements of everyone, almost like a hologram we all buy into. Your Ti is only true to a certain degree within a given framework and beyond that, you really just don't know.
What I say needs to be understood by a wide range of people. The objectivity of my words matters more because I am controlling for the variable sensemaking from the tribe. I don't think Ti is obligated to finding words that have the best overall mileage when explaining something to a diverse group of people. Ti, much like Fi, seeks to project their inner thoughts and systems to their external world. This might be why Te rely on synthesizing and testing their knowledge, while Ti consume while critiquing themselves and others, sharpening their core understanding to a fine point.
Te is ALL about effectiveness given what is realistically possible. That's pretty much it at it's core. There are likely measurable difference in how Te manifests depending on whether it's in the 1st or 2nd slot. I would think 2nd slot is probably more perfectionistic since we have 6th slot Ti as well. But generally, if something does not work in any sense, Te has failed and we feel that failure. If something is inefficient in any sense, Te has failed and we feel that sense of failure. And you must define what it means to say "does it work". For most of us, at least the other Te users I've known across my life, we want to keep hashing out ALL aspects of a thing together (e.g. sales numbers, other metrics, marketing, design, user satisfaction, etc.) until we get it ALL as perfect as it can be given the circumstances. And the reason in part for doing that together, as a group, is partly because we need to bounce and test ideas with each other but also because we must have consensus if we can ever be ABLE to move forward. If people are not all on the same page, then you have people who are not on board and that causes constant arguments so you end up back to a failed outcome. The whole point is an effective, successful outcome. For SOME Te users, who are maybe less perfectionists OR who simply don't have the resources required, they will accept a result even if it's slightly less efficient, as long as it works. But that is never what we really want. For those of us who are perfectionists, will never be satisfied with that and we will keep reworking it IF POSSIBLE (the situation does not always allow us to do that due to lack of resources, people, financial, time constraints, etc.) until we get it as effective and efficient as possible.
Accuracy & Precision are NOT the same thing. They can't be used interchangeably, not always. These terms & their significances are taught in science. Those are invaluable. Accuracy is the correct result or how close it is to the correct result & precision is if you perform the experiment and if you are able to reproduce that result each time without exception that's precise.
Taking notes bothers the natural flow of ti. Ti needs to have a flow to build on. If you cut it in the middle with another cognitive focus of writing you ruin the flow and it's hard to understand.
I went with mum to get my cat put down and the vet said his spirit would live on/he would come back in another form and I -through the pain of loss- flatly corrected her and told her that his energy was stored in the chemical bonds in his body, which would degrade after he died.
Min 12:45 it's funny that I think I'm infp and I usually look at the number of likes on a photo to decide whether or not to give it a like: if it has too many or is too popular I don't do it, I prefer to support the unpopular 😆
That example about the guy thinking he was going down in the comments vs going up and instantly understanding once he knew he was scrolling up is not a difficult concept and may not be an example of Ti, or maybe it is. That is actually really obvious and easy though. It's an instant understanding for me. Maybe I am using Ti more than I realize, or maybe this is a function of Te and he is conflating Te and Ti? Also with regard to what he said about getting annoyed that someone who is building an increasingly unstable structure based off of an inaccurate foundation, that is totally something that happens to me all the time. It's really annoying to observe someone's false premise and not be allowed to get that stipulated and corrected before moving forward in the discussion. Again, as an INTJ, this is very common for me, so I may be using Ti more than I realized because I just thought of these as Te things. Not always, but I often do go ahead and interrupt them to make sure we both stay on the same page. Yes, sometimes they think I am rude but honestly, most of the time they understand and are perfectly willing to stop and re-assess their "facts" with me before moving forward.
I am an INTJ and my brother is an ISTP and he is a great electrician. He is also a HUGE Trump fan and we used to around and around with the logic behind his love of Trump and why it is based on false assumptions about the man. I never could follow his reasoning because not only do I have a strong background in psychology which gives me a framework for understanding Trump's dysfunctions at a very obvious level; but more importantly, I have personal experience with the ACTUAL truth of what it means to be someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). I have known a narcissist intimately for many years and was abused and traumatized by this person, who is just like Trump. And while my brother has dom Ti, he just does not have the personal experience I have with NPD and he really has no understanding whatsoever how it works, so he is not working with all the facts, not even close. But he is too arrogant to accept this. He calls me arrogant. Sigh....needless to say I do not allow him to lure me into political discussions anymore. I will tell him I'm not going there with him and I'll change the subject. Ti users must always take into account their level of experience on a matter. This is critical.
Hmm, guess that’s a Ti sensor issue or if he was hearing your logical argument as making anecdotal over generalizations I’m an INFJ and my brother is an INTP, both Ti-Fe intuitives. We’re super aware of where we’re having to make assumptions and will note when we’re guessing or going off our own personal experiences. We can be persuaded to different views with quality evidence that’s on par or better than what we had been working with. When it comes to trump, we saw the logical problems with the earlier versions of that movement when it took over our community when we were kids/teens in the 90s/00s
How could it work not be "true"? If it works there is an element of truth. It might be better to look at it less in the binary. Some things can be efficacious but morally questionable or true in some sense but not in others and the point of building frameworks of truth is that they elegantly connect (coherence) and are based on a more solid foundation of truth claims (empirically observable). And what my mind is thinking this whole time, is that you are not qualifying your statements with objectivity or standard definitions that would make your statements on Truth accessible. The idea of what is truthiness is, is located within your private understanding.
Re the reason to go or not go....okay, here is some logic for you. The REASON to NOT GO is BECAUSE you do not WANT to go, LOL. Your desires DO count as a factor to incorporate in your reasoning. I actually learned this in my twenties and it has made all the difference. Please read some philosophy books. Check out Cicero and Aristotle. I think you'll find a lot of value in those.
I think this about Te being accurate and Ti being precise: Ti sacrifices what works now for the truth, because Ti knows that eventually, the truth will be better and more accurate than the current Te system, even if it means rebuilding it.
Haha true, that makes a lot of sense! I meant to say that Ti is looking for accurate axioms and Te is looking for precise outcomes as said by Binyamin (video linked in the description 🙂). I'm wondering if those two words can be used interchangeably. As it's hard to convey what you're actually saying due to the limits of language.
@@Squidblimp ha! I love it. 💫
So
Te = it's good enough
Ti= i have to pin point the truth eventually
I think you're on the right path, but as a Ti dom, I context that use of "accuracy" for Te. My understanding of Te's main focus is "UTILITY", not accuracy. Precision and Accuracy are basically the same things to me, just to different degrees or "saturation" levels. (And Te falls well below the threshold for even "accurate" to me, haha. Just "what works, right now". Te is like the "minimum viable product" version of Ti. )
Ti doms like me and Binyamin argue that it's NEVER acceptable to be at "minimum viable logic" level, but in reality, I have to admit, there are LOTS of times where it's "fine". But there's also a TON of times where I think Se-levels of logic (inductive) are being used for very NOT FINE outcomes.
My relevant to 2020 example: Trying to use Se to determine if racism exists when you live in a rural white area. (I was born into a conservative, white area like this btw, and am now a "principled" socialist so I think about this frequently.) If you use Te to analyze your environment, you'll say "Yes, racism may exist, but it's very minor in effect.", which is enough logic to "get you through", as long as you rarely interact with non-white folks.
As soon as you zoom out or even adjust your view to different areas and demographics, it falls apart and even falls WELL below typical Te acceptance levels for "problem" solving. (Less than a minimum viable product in, for instance, an area where there's more parity in racial distribution like basically ANY city.)
So, with that one example, I hope I've outlined the difference between inductive Te (That can be useful NOW, but almost never WIDELY applicable) VS deductive Ti. (The pursuit of a solution or idea that works equally well for EVERYONE or as well as physically possible within the limits of actual physics and reality. Note: NOT what's "doable" within arbitrary existing but malleable restraints, such as "what the majority of people will accept".)
With that said, I think ISTPs have more of that "slave to truth" feeling that he's mentioning here, compared to INTPs. I think that's very likely due to his Ni vs my Ne (I nickname Ne "The lying function", lol.), I can choose to VIOLATE the truth and not really feel THAT bad about it as long as I feel like the impact is non-existent or minimal, OR, more likely, I'm still "shopping" for a solution. His vegetarian/vegan argument is a great example. I eat meat, but my Ni-dom wife is vegan. I know everything she does but can't bring myself to live that "truthfully". I admit I'm a shithead, morally, but it just doesn't... Bug me as much as it does her? I'd prefer to change our government and culture to de-emphasize meat and factory farming rather than decide to "live my truth" as the first step. Change the system, "personal responsiblitiy" is basically worthless on the sociatal level.
@@vazzaroth Amazing explanation of this! Also, it's possible our brains were siblings in a previous life...so...Hey, Buddy, how's tricks?!
Who else came here from objective personality ?
Welcome OPers :)
OMG, his "awkward Fe" at 25:00 was ADORABLE!! My ISTP brother is like that too. It's SOOOOOO WARM and SWEEEEET!!! As an INTJ, I really admire that. I could only DREAM of having Fe that good. 💖
Ironic that you see that as good Fe because it's so not intentional. If he could, he would not express the awkward Fe. It would be a smooth and effortless use of Fe. It's good to know that people view 'awkward' Fe positively. In the moment it feels like you're just messing up.
@@jack76787 Yep! At least we care haha there are another whole half of us that don't even intentionally use Fe at all.
My advice re 26:15 (on the off chance that it's helpful) is that when you find yourself in that situation where there is "no reason to go or not to go", then use that as your opportunity to respect your Fi. You guys really NEED to do that more for your own well-being. If there is no reason to say yes and you don't want to go, then don't go. That's it. Just honor your feelings and don't go. Your feelings matter just as much as your reasons, even though you don't see that. They really do. You don't HAVE to let that Fe take over and do what the other people want. You can honor your boundaries. That's the healthy thing to do.
Holy crap! I literally had 2 hours wasted in a group assignment on friday. The other people in the group were planning out the assignment and I tried to tell them they got the assignment wrong. Then I tried telling them they were doing another part completely backwards and two of them (one in particular) got really upset and started arguing hard against me saying I was being disruptive and tried to make me feel bad for questioning everything.
It was insane, but seeing this video really made me feel better about it.
Good stuff! 🙏
probably
he was not trying to make u feel bad
but he was living up to what he values Fi
the problem is ur Fe
for making that momentary feeling blind u from The Fi value
For me as an intp it's funny what he says about Ti not being about logic, but about truth, because for me it's pretty different.
Because he uses Se he's filtering though facts and figuring out what's true, but for me using Ne I'm filtering through concepts and possibilities and figuring out what's plausible or possible. To be able to do that I need to have consistent logic, but I can never find one objective truth, because that's not how I see the world.
I think trying to find what's true is not inherent to Ti, but more a combination of Ti and Se, whereas the combination of Ti and Ne results more in looking for what's plausible.
I have to constantly challenge my Ti thinking with new Ne perspectives, whereas Binyamin is likely challenging his Ti beliefs with Se facts.
The only way to stop this Ti Ne thinking loop is to tell myself I still need to sleep I still need to brush my teeth I still need to eat. That gets me back into ''reality.'' If I don't do that I go on an endless loop where I question everything and it's mother and god and the universe itself and I just get completely disconnected.
Thanks for this Joyce.
Thanks a lot for having me.
A pleasure as always.
It was so great talking to you! Thank you so much for coming on the show. You and your typology insights are fantastic, Binyamin.
This much Ti in one social interchange is very exciting/arousing. Literally dopamine.
INTJ here. When I was younger, in college, I often took notes, especially if the professor was prone to go went off on tangents that could not be easily found in the textbook but would likely be on the test. But now that I'm older, I never take notes anymore because it distracts me from really listening to the speaker. You can't truly multi-task (take notes AND integrate what someone is saying into your framework of understanding at the same time). If you want to really hear the person and integrate what they are saying, then you have to give them your full attention. I always understand better if I am listening actively. I will get the notes later to use if I need them.
I relate heavily with this. The past few semesters in college, note taking always felt like a distraction from understanding the material during the lecture. If I didn't understand it in the moment as I wrote it down, looking at it again later on with even less context wouldn't help at all with learning either. I felt myself doing better when I took less detailed notes and just listened during class. Very much a flow state during those times.
I also never looked at old notes to study for a test because it felt like I should already know the essence by then, and scanning would only give a surface understanding. Maybe this kind of learning style was suited for the free response type problems on my engineering exams. The pure recall type questions would be the worst.
Very relatable. I was fortunate to have a History professor who would write notes, drawings, and diagrams for the first part of the lecture across all the blackboards, and we were to copy them down (leaving space between segments for our own notes) before he started his lecture. And I use the term lecture loosely here, because the man was a superb storyteller. There are things I will never forget from that class because of the way he brought them to life. Once the first board of notes was done, he'd erase and write/draw more as he spoke, giving us time to get it all down where there were natural breaks in the story. Made me wish more teachers in general could be as captivating!
I suck at taking notes. If I try to take notes I'll miss what they're saying, as you said it's too distracting. Then I won't understand what my "notes" mean.
I love that you (Binyamin) are using your Ti for OP good. My Ni tells me OP is legit and they are truly on to something; so I am grateful for your Ti critiques which will help OP become stronger. And yes, doing that for your integrity makes you more credible for those times when you would argue in their favor.
This is so good. I can feel my comment-typing fingers warming up. I'm only at 3:36 and am so piqued by what Binyamin is saying re Ti truth compared with Te's truth awareness. As an extroverted function, Te naturally sees and wants to absorb Ti. But Ti can't see Te. The same happens with Ne
I visibly cringed when Joyce mentioned criticism being a lack of respect. But I agree 100% with him as an INTP. If you get REAL constructive criticism from me, that's proof I am SERIOUSLY invested in you and/or your projects. "[blank] sucks" is the feedback I give people or things I don't respect. But trying to find a solution or at least identify exactly WHY I feel something is wrong or false or not the best approach is what I define as respect.
Very insightful and detailed interview! I wish I would have seen this sooner. I particularly liked the analogy about a predictive system and the results: well both would prefer truth and efficiency, a Te user would choose the model that produces the better predictive results even if based on erroneous data, whereas the Ti user prefers the model built on premises which are absolutely true, even if the results are less accurate than the other one. The most interesting everyday life example I could think of would be two friends both trying to lose weight and how and why they would choose their respective diets and workout programs. The Te user would choose the one that helps them lose weight even if it's based on eating crap and having an an odd workout routine "whatever works," whereas the TI user would stick to the science, even at the cost of some efficiency and time with regard to quick weight loss.
🤗
I feel as if Ni is always searching for the ESSENCE of a thing.
Essentially yeah. Funnily enough, the essence of Ni is the search for the single skeleton that everything in the world is built upon. Simplification is the key word.
Wow. This was such an interesting video guys. I use Ti as my third function and it was fascinating to hear this discussion. It articulated a lot of things that I knew on some level, but had never heard anyone speak about. This was really great!
Thank you Maria! I'm glad this episode helped articulate your experience with Ti in the third position. :)
Thanks for sharing the interview! What an in-depth dive to Ti from Binyamin and you asked all the pertinent questions. Well done! What was new to me was something I suspected but could never confirm from Ti users was when faced with a dilemma with no logical answer, their judgment freezes and they default to their Fe (Paraphrased). As a Fi Ne user, when faced with a situation where I feel the doors closing on every opportunity to resulting in severing a close relationship, I can freeze up and default to Te rage to lash out at close family members. Well, maybe I need to rewatch this to get more insights. Love the video!
It's always enjoyable to read your comments, Andrew! Yes when Ti is faced with a decision with no clear logical answer, they might default to Fe. Interesting to hear about the Fi-Te parallel to this. Thank you for sharing. :)
It is very fitting for the Decider (Binyamin) to refer more to the users of Ti and Te and the Observer (Joyce) referring to the functions as separate objects.
Also: Binyamin gets bonus points for being vegetarian.
Yes! Binyamin going back and forth with the information is super Double Observer of him.
& yea those bonus points are well deserved, kudos to Binny!
I found this really thought provoking.
:) Happy to hear.
This is a fascinating discussion. This explains a lot of the conversations between me (INTJ) and my Mom (INFJ). In college, I would always talk about my science/math classes with her and she would always struggle to follow, not because she isn't smart (she's brilliant) but because she needed to follow all the logic with her Ti but didn't have the facts to do so, for example when I would talk about genetics or calculus or physics. One time when I was talking about calculus, she was telling me that she is good at lower math because she can see how it all connects but as soon as I would get into higher algebra, trig and calculus, I would lose her. She told me it was because the connections could no longer be seen. Whereas, me, with my Te and Ni, I was able to easily make As in calculus because of my intuitive leaps.
I didn't even know how I knew the right answers in algebra and calculus but I just always did and I know it was very much because of my intuition. On the flip side, I was horrible in organic chemistry (I was just glad to make a C in that class) because it's SO TEDIOUS and detailed and not subject to the use of intuition as much as just rote memorization. My ISTJ roommate aced organic chemistry though. Oh, and it's so true about Te caring more about effectiveness than ultimate facts. As a grad student, I thought I was more of a Ti person (although I didn't know it by that name) because of my critical parent Ti but later realized that Te is much higher in the stack for me. I am mainly concerned that something WORKS.
Orgo chem isn't as rote as u think it is. At the beginning it feels like rote because each carbon group has its own properties, but when you dig deeper you find they're all based on the same fundamentals. The only rote stuff is the names for each group (oh and all the f*cking reagents, sometimes I forget some of them even exist).
@@bananewane1402 LOL, "f*cking reagents" YES!! I only took 2 semesters of organic chem and then moved on to other subjects so never got deep into it enough to see the patterns you mention although I would have had I gone into medicine or something. That's cool to know organic chem is like that too!
that is by far the best video on Ti cant agree more. this has actually made me accept my own dominant Ti.
also I find it quite weird that i would want to have a long chat with benyamin and discuss about my own theories about cognitive functions but at the same time i would be quite reluctant to do so because i dont want to jeopardize my theoretical framework.
Thank you, Hamza!! 🙂 What a compliment. You Ti doms are amazing.
@@JoyceMeng22 youre welcome, and no you Ni doms are amazing.
I find it extremely exhausting to discuss something with another Ti dom, even if we are not even disagreeing. I wonder why is that.. maybe 2 masculine Ti just clash idk. We like to tell ourselves how Ti is about "the truth", and yet this happens. Maybe it reveals how subjective or selfish Ti actually is (or maybe i'm just weird).
@@timo4258 would you like to have a deep conversation
27:03 I agree. This makes it hard to finish a book sometimes. You can't correct the book on it's incorrect logic.
Yes precisely. You can't correct the logic, so I'd assume the rest of the book is cringe depending on how unsound it is
I mean I read the foundation circle , and I got into the logic of : this is 50' sci-fi obiusly there's FTL , ESP and atomic everything ...
Here's what frustrates Ti about Te. Assume a square peg and a round hole. The square peg doesn't fit. Ti says, "Okay we need to find a round peg that has a diameter the same size of the inside edge. Te will be happy to find a triangular peg narrow enough to fit in the same hole and turn to Ti accusing it of wasting time, like it was obvious that the peg could have been any peg.
It would be SUPER FUN to see a panel with high-level thinkers (INTP, ISTP, INTJ, ISTJ, ENTP, ESTP, ENTJ and ESTJ) comparing and contrasting Te and Ti. Or maybe split it up between the N's and S's in one panel and then the doms and auxilliary's in another panel for the sake of not having too many people in one panel? I think that would be extremely elucidating.
THIS IS SUCH A GOOD IDEA. Definitely doing a panel like that in the future.
I really, really appreciate both of your channels. I love the format. We get a lot of insights from these interviews.
Glad you like them, @Cricket Rodeo!
I loved this episode by the way! :)
Binyamin’s Ti categorizing classifications are so precise and in-depth that I’m starting to question if I’m ISTP or ESTP... Maybe it’s just my Ti lacking experience.
Age and life circumstances play a big part in it too; I hope you're able to figure out your type. Perhaps this series I'm creating will help you with that. :)
Ya, I’m pretty sure istp is what I am, but I do resonate with both types quite a bit...
Trying typing yourself through your inferior function. Do you tend to struggle the most with social and emotional problems (Fe) or avoid thinking about the future and planning for it (Ni)?
Yaaaay, Binyamin
Ikr?? Yayy. Pucokie's going to be on one day as well :) (I saw your comment on her recent video so I thought I'd let you know!)
@@JoyceMeng22 I love that! I wonder if she'd be an INFJ in OP.
It seemed like she had a lot of big decider freakouts during her road to irrelevence, but I also feel that the T.Robbens human needs might not necessarily indicate someones dominant function 100% of the time. Or atleast OP types don't 100% translate to MBTI/Jungian types all the time.
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I was wondering, Joyce, if you take notes? You're Ti saviour afterall. :)
I never did either and now try to take notes to remember sensory stuff. (It doesn't work cause I don't check them, but atleast I can tell myself I tried)
@@NicStride True; Pucokie is an INFJ in my taxonomy so that's all I'm looking for. =]
I don't strictly go by any theory, preferring to independently figure out the cognitive functions for myself.
I normally take notes *after* lectures. Like Binyamin said, taking notes distracts Ti. I prefer to write down my own takeaways as well rather than just the lesson itself
@@JoyceMeng22 I think she's INFJ too, hence the ramble on systems not lining up.
I assume you believe in shadow functions?
I see an Fi in INFJs, which I find super fascinating, because it's a totally different expression of Fi than what I see in people who have that function in the first 4 slots.
It could be Fe and Ti coming together to emulate Fi, but somehow it feels like a mature-er Fi than actual Fi users, somehow.
I wish I could express what I'm seeing more eloquently and concisely. :)
@@JoyceMeng22 I've done what you described about making notes of my own takeaways after a lecture, and they're often so abstract that when I've moved on with my life, if I try to use them to revise, I'm desperately looking for the note to trigger an Si association, because they're written in a shorthand which is so idiomatic that even I can't comprehend parts of them.
Complex ideas get condensed down into something so basic and abstract that it's really not even notes anymore.
Literally the opposite of comprehensive. :D
I love that Ti nanobot analogy!!
Lot of Ti truth in this one, thanks you two!
:) An oldie but a goodie. Thanks for watching the video, Drew!
@@JoyceMeng22 My pleasure, Joyce! Sometimes the classics are hard to beat.😉
Man, the more I hear y'all talk, the more I think I have pretty strong Ti. I probably can't stack it as high as an INTP or ENTP but I can and definitely need to do it. I TOTALLY have the exact same philosophy when it comes to taking notes. I can't absorb what the professor is saying if I'm writing it down. It's utterly distracting and ineffective. I'll just listen and ask questions if needed and study (including writing out my notes in MY OWN words later.
The way Binyamin is describing Ti is something I fully relate to yet I am an INTJ. I recognize what he's saying about how it's annoying when other people don't respect and make space to hash out the Ti because I also crave that, but to me, those people are not manifesting Te (vs Ti) as he has concluded, when they use circular or irrelevant arguments or are just not listening or are glossing over the Ti user. Frankly, they are manifesting being dumb,stupid, impatient, overly confident, immature, etc. A healthy, mature Te user should hear out a Ti user and be swayed by the logic if it bears out. Period. When I see people building on false logic, I do NOT let that slide. I always stop them and clarify before moving on unless it's not important. It probably helps that I have Fi to be able to do that because I'm not so concerned that I'm offending them. ENTP and INTPs have Fe so they (especially the ENTPs) are more reluctant to cause that discomfort?
The more I try to truly understand what Ti is doing the more head scratching it is, same with Fe. I just don’t use those functions often so hearing them explained is like bizarro world. I’m a Te-Fi user so it’s about getting my ideas and tasks done as fast and efficient as possible. Skip all the nonsense and show me the quickest way from A-B so I can move on to what is next.
So insightful about the use of Ti, comming from a family of sibling Te users from what I've experienced of Te it is like the Te user is saying to the Ti user you have to accept the entire premise of an argument or you reject our thinking but I'm like NOOOO I am saying I agree with this part but this other part is swiss cheese and has holes and with poor Fe my rejection is to the point which causes a whole series of problems.SIGH
On another note Ti also has a problem when you have many good ideas to move forward and all are equally valid, you can get very stuck because you have no emotional attachment to any, it is just valid not valid there is no Fi to say this means more to ME and you dont trust that the group even knows what it wants or more importantly why they want it.
I think you have touched upon some innate need in Ti lead to go back to originating axioms. Which are a kind of play thing or creative exploration for Ti.
Beautifully said, Retrogamer71! What's your type btw if you don't mind me asking?
Mostly a drunken witty type. But for your question an INTP.
“Attacking falsehood” is why I could not stomach CSJ because he was just triggering so many false alarms 🚨
“Colliding with society” is why I cannot get behind jury duty.
Drink a shot every time one of them says "true". LOL (jk - I don't even drink)
true
Joyce, if only you could get a series of guests who could express with loquacity their lead functions of the eight.
Trying to do that atm ^-^, planning to invite MANY guests one day to give you a feel of every type & how each person sees their cognitive functions.
I used to take notes in the university. I think that it depends on the professor & the subject , your knowledge as well. I loved taking notes on Quantum chemistry, solid sate, only - I took them on my own way - I listened, understood, interpreted & then wrote. Then went to the library , read on it , pondered over it & so on.. I have never ever "mindlessly just copied" while taking notes, in my life. In fact my mind worked overtime actually during that short amount of time - I listed to the professor, understood what he/she wanted to say, tried to see the consistency in that theory, tried to see what could be the problem , application etc and then I was writing in my own version as well. I was a "busy" person.
Te MUST be accurate because we are busy and in a hurry when trying to get stuff done so we are relying on the process or system to work for us reliably, preferably like a well-oiled machine. If it's not reliable, then it wastes our time, holds us back and we do not accomplish our goals. That feels bad because we are trying to take care of things for people and if something interferes, then we can't do that.
I'm new here, also ~newby in MBTI world. Started to watch this playlist few days ago ⏯️
My friend from Discord recommend it 👍🏼
Great serial of interviews.
I didn't started from E1 (episode 1) ahaha it's fine I guess 😁
26:26 STPs need to trust their Ni gut instinct in these cases. But it’s natural for masculine introverted deciders struggle with fear of being judged by the tribe.
Ti is inductive and deductive. It’s much more flexible than Ni, especially if it has an intuitive function following it to push it several directions. After that thinking and intuition pair is complete, Ti will then go back to build up as a final iteration
The issue I have with the contents of the comment attributed to Damon Gray about Te, is that when you compartmentalize logic like that (although Binyamin didn't mention it I'm sure he was aware of it), you are sure to run into contradictions down the road, to as fundamental principles which are true in one particular time and place, especially ones involving logic, should be applicable universally, And if they are not, Then one of the premises must have been false. I think the biggest example of this is Einstein's theory of relativity contradicting the contemporary models of quantum mechanics; these two laws contradict each other but scientists and technicians continue to use them both to achieve impressive feats. Either one of these theorys is ultimately wrong, or there is a grand theory beyond our current capacity to understand, that reconciles them.
Also, I think the nanobot analogy works to describe those of us who are working out the kinks in our understandings of the various personality typing systems. My own journey in this regard involves trying to build somewhat of a synthesis between these different systems to help alleviate, if not eliminate contradictory results in these respective systems (e.g. "she is an MBTI ENTJ, but an SLE in Model A Socionics, and an Se/Te (ESFP Jumper) in OPS.") I think such a project, although admittingly maybe overly optimistic or ambitious, could, and should be achieved, if we could establish agreement upon specific definitions of the eight functions. Until we are able to achieve this, we will always get people with differing typing results in different systems which, especially to the Te-dominated academic community, greatly diminishes the claims of each of these models both specifically, and collectively.
That anecdote at 17:50 is not a Ti thing I don't think. Te users easily have these understandings as well. For me that would be obvious. In fact I would quickly assume that you were scrolling backwards as soon as I read the second comment and realized the first one was after it in the logical progression. I think Te users build as well. I think the difference is that we interrupt that process if it goes on too long because we feel the pressure to bring an outcome to fruition. So we don't build up AS MUCH as a Ti user. But we can still stack upon premises. And to answer your question, Te (you said Ti but I thought you might have meant Te?) users DO correct each other's incorrect axioms/assumptions. Part of the collaboration process is discussing the correctness or truth, like you would with a Ti user. We also must stop and clarify along the way. To me this is just part of "thinking".
You are correct that an Ni dom does not always want to reiterate all the steps. But that is not a good analogy to compare Ni and Te regarding just wanting to get to the point. Ni is WAY more eager to jump to the conclusion than Te in my experience. Remember, Te is RESPONSIBLE for ensuring something works so we are hesitant about any kind of shortcut that could sabotage our end goal. I think the difference is more in that we don't need to come to the conclusion independently. We trust our co-Te users. If we didn't we would not work with them (if we could avoid it). And that trust is given because it is earned in some way. We must be open to trusting each other (unless they give us a reason not to) because you can't reach a goal if you can't work together with others.
Loved this interview (ISTP), added many new insights, for me personally. The aspect I struggled with is with the Ti-Truth concept. Is there a 'truth' which is an actual, real truth being defended or is it a personal, subjective truth? The answer to that question seems to dictate (for me) how virtuous or selfish a Ti really is, the former leading to virtuosity the latter leading to selfishness. Not sure if I've explained it very well, would love some feedback.
Also with regards to Fi, I dislike the term prioritising my feelings, I prefer the lexical term assigning the value to a hierarchy of feelings, much like Ti is determining the truth from a hierarchy of thinking. I have a billion different feelings, some are more important than others, but all are important and have a different use in different situations. When I feel something, I can (unconsciously) assign a level of significance to that feeling, and thus know how important that feeling's value is when I experience it. Eg. Hope has high level importance, happy is medium, annoyance is low importance. Hope that helps explain what Fi and Ti is. I imagine Ti goes through a similar process?
An interesting tidbit about Fi! Yess. Ti examines the nuance in logic like Fi examines the nuances in feeling.
@@JoyceMeng22 Yeah, another way of thinking about Fi is not "values for self", but "self for values" just like Ti is "self for truth".
@@Alazsel Yep precisely!! 🙂💯👏
@@Alazsel Good point Andrew, what about "Prioritizing and re-prioritizing priorities" as one of the things that Fi is responsible for? (In addition to the hierarchy of feelings/values you describe)
@@Binyamin.Tsadik Thank you Binyamin. I assume my feelings are in a constant state of flux, trying to gauge what is the feeling that inspires greater importance for the people around me. It's sort of like the Bayesian problem you mentioned, if there is new information to change my priors, then I may change my moral stance on the problem. For example, I previously didn't support gay marriage in Australia because of personal traditional views and the importance I attached to human reproduction as a value. However, my best friend came out as gay and would like to marry under the marriage amendment. I had to change my moral views or risk my friendship and his happiness which I prioritised as a higher importance value than the one of reproduction for the human race. If originally 80:20 importance for reproduction:gay marriage, now it changes to 1:99 for my gay friend. As Bayesian theorem states I should probably multiply the ratios with the actual respective population to calculate the total importance. However if newer information comes in saying human race is becoming extinct and we need to reproduce again, then I would change sides. I would sacrifice my friendship for the sake of the world reproduction.
I would agree that Fi is building beliefs from the ground up. But I have a question for other Fi users out there..."Where is the ground?" I defined my own value system as a teenager but it was not 100% from scratch. I used my own internal sense of empathy as a foundation but also, I did it after examining the fodder of religious, philosophical and spiritual teachings and I continue to adapt my value system as I gain new experiences and expand. With Ti and Fi, we talk about starting at the bottom, but really, NOTHING is original. We are all starting from some base assumption. So nothing is totally from the ground up. For example with logic, you must define your premises. I think we can agree that mathematics and physics for all intents and purposes do indeed start from as close to the ground as one can get but I think most all other things build on top of that.
Ti-Fe: Does the plan or do the newly discovered facts make sense to me and does everyone like it. I think because we want everyone to like our solution we are more thorough and precise as to make sure there is less room for it to not make sense to someone.
Te-Fi: Does it make sense to everyone and do i like the result. They don't care if its deep. If the result they get is the result they want and everyone else is okay with the logic then they are fine to stop thinking.
"I'm attacking false wherever it is" LMAO the problem of my life. There you have why people say how "argumentative" we ENTPs are
Yess. Ti is extinguishing falsehood left and right. True facts, Pumpkin Soup.
As an ENTP you're probably not saying ''that is false,'' but rather ''that is not neccessarily true'' and then throw a different perspective at them to challenge their belief. Rather than throwing a different fact.
@@amidreaming333 that's rather a cultural nuance. I've heard also phrases "I wouldn't necessarily disagree..." which a way to not agree in an Fe way, whereas in my culture we'd be much more often straightforward.
I have a math riddle application in my phone, and I played it together with my friend that I identify as a Te user. He and I have pretty good skill playing this, but in the way he provided the way he solved it is way more pragmatic, I always kinda offended with that, even if the solution is the same, still I need to know how I know by the truthful method. Maybe now I nearly can see myself better of using Ti.
I never took notes either, for the same reason. I can't process the incoming info properly if I'm trying to write at the same time.
Would it be possible for a non-Ti to also have this default--of seeking out inconsistencies and sorting stuff into true/false?
I was talking with a intj for a while, I was kinda put off by his view to how I have only 13 friends or low likes.. I just care about the friends as i only want those i value , i dont care about the number or how many likes.. its laughable really
I love Binyamin, how he so gently guided you back when you were overwhelmed with yr alarm ..
I find it funny you said that Ti- doms don't take notes because they want to figure out their way of logic because I know a guy who I think is a Ti dom that takes notes during sermons of everything he disagrees with theologically aahahaha.
I seem to have this recurring Ti problem with "experts/professionals". When I notice an expert/professional in some field is being inconsistant with his logic, I find it hard to take him seriously from that moment on. So in order to not get tired of such people, I just avoid informing myself or asking questions about their things, so I can take at least them seriously. Do other Ti users have this problem too?
Yeah, I'll avoid asking particular questions so I can still respect the opinion / logical process of the other person.
Ti: precise method or process
Te: precise outcome or result
I think all Thinkers use logic. If/Then statements are completely normal and natural for me. I assume they are less natural for high-level feelers? From Joyce's reaction, it seems so.
Min 14:51 I’m so bad at logic 😞 (infp I think)
I think Binyamin is my new favourite ISTP 😂😂😂
Is it just me or is Biny describing Fi when defining how he sees Ti?
At 38.20 this infj wanted to say to Binyamin, "welcome to the club" lol.. Fe and Ti do contradict eachother, it's very difficult for me having the 2 in the middle with lead Ni and my Se being sporadic and avoided like the plague much of the time..it's really good in some areas maybe but beginner level at highest in terms of an overall 'command'..
I believe I have two examples of Ti building, adjusting and taking responsibility for its framework. I am hoping you can tell me if these fit what you and Binyamin were discussing. 1) I do guardian ad litem work, and as part of that role I investigate cases and report to the court the facts I have found and my recommendations based on those facts. Assume that while I am testifying, an attorney asks me, "If you found out after you made your report that this new fact occurred, would that change your recommendation?" Because I am responsible for the framework regardless of the outcome, I would say, "With this new fact, my recommendation would change thus..." For me, my recommendations are based on the facts, so if the facts change in a substantive way, then my recommendation must change accordingly, or else my recommendation is useless. 2) In a presidential election year, I am "on the fence" about who is the better candidate. People from both camps try to convince me that if I am not "with them", I must be "against them." These people may be very close to me or complete strangers. But if I believe I don't have all the facts to determine which candidate is better, I won't make a decision even if people think I'm a traitor or wishy-washy. And for me, the "better" candidate is the one who is actually answering questions and not dodging them, whose platform aligns with what they're saying; and whose plan makes sense for the well-being of our citizens. Would both of these be instances of Ti building, adjusting and taking responsibility for its framework?
32:00 paladin oath of Ti
You betcha 😂
I love success matrix’s
As an auxiliary Te user,, trained as a scientist who also learned a bit of logic in grad school. It was pretty obvious to me but nice to have the language to be able to articulate it with others. I really enjoy collaborating with other Te users. It's so fun. But I care DEEPLY about ultimate truth and I look at this on a massive scale, global, universal, etc.. I believe looking at objective data points gives me the most accurate measurement of a thing as well as its TRUTH.
Regarding that statement he made about Te caring about performance metrics, if you are saying that you don't care about the analytics, but you just care if people are getting value from your videos, then that begs the question, how do you measure that value? In other words, how do you KNOW you actually are creating value? You don't. There is no way to actually know that all by yourself. You can ONLY estimate it and even that is done based off of feedback you are getting (which is nothing more than anecdotal data), which is small sample data. To get closer to ultimate truth, that is done by looking at the data. The best (and really the only VALID) data comes from very large sample sizes.
If you are only assessing that value based off your introverted, subjective personal analysis, then no matter how well you've analyzed it, it's still subjective and therefore biased and therefore, potentially, only true to you and select others who share you base assumptions. Finding your own solution is admirable and I wish more people would START there but you can't stop there because there is simply more to it. You have to then take it to the collective, which is why it's been shown that you will always get the best answer when you put the question or problem out to the universe for mass collaboration (I urge you to read "Wikinomics" for a great explanation of this phenomenon).
You can't escape the need for assessment/measuring of data and results if you truly want to know the ultimate truth of a thing. The only real way to know is through measuring the response you get which is truth reflecting back to you from the collective, which is infinitely more objective and possessing greater, broader perspective. Te is constantly doing that objective measurement and understanding the results....or at least that is what I do, so it may be combination of my Ni and Te/Ti (I have thinking as my creative function - the 2nd and 6th slots). But this I think is mostly Te, which is why so much of science is based on it.
And if you want to go one step further, you have to admit that even objective truth is only valid to the extent that we agree on it because there is pretty good evidence that "reality" is actually an illusion based on the collective agreements of everyone, almost like a hologram we all buy into. Your Ti is only true to a certain degree within a given framework and beyond that, you really just don't know.
7:29 🤔
The most embarrassing moment of my life 😂 I swear it was by accident, it's pretty hilarious (& cringey).
What I say needs to be understood by a wide range of people. The objectivity of my words matters more because I am controlling for the variable sensemaking from the tribe.
I don't think Ti is obligated to finding words that have the best overall mileage when explaining something to a diverse group of people.
Ti, much like Fi, seeks to project their inner thoughts and systems to their external world.
This might be why Te rely on synthesizing and testing their knowledge, while Ti consume while critiquing themselves and others, sharpening their core understanding to a fine point.
Ti - reasons
Fi - values
Ti : it makes sense because it makes sense to me
Te : it doesn't make sense because it doesn't make sense to me
Te is ALL about effectiveness given what is realistically possible. That's pretty much it at it's core. There are likely measurable difference in how Te manifests depending on whether it's in the 1st or 2nd slot. I would think 2nd slot is probably more perfectionistic since we have 6th slot Ti as well. But generally, if something does not work in any sense, Te has failed and we feel that failure. If something is inefficient in any sense, Te has failed and we feel that sense of failure. And you must define what it means to say "does it work". For most of us, at least the other Te users I've known across my life, we want to keep hashing out ALL aspects of a thing together (e.g. sales numbers, other metrics, marketing, design, user satisfaction, etc.) until we get it ALL as perfect as it can be given the circumstances. And the reason in part for doing that together, as a group, is partly because we need to bounce and test ideas with each other but also because we must have consensus if we can ever be ABLE to move forward. If people are not all on the same page, then you have people who are not on board and that causes constant arguments so you end up back to a failed outcome. The whole point is an effective, successful outcome.
For SOME Te users, who are maybe less perfectionists OR who simply don't have the resources required, they will accept a result even if it's slightly less efficient, as long as it works. But that is never what we really want. For those of us who are perfectionists, will never be satisfied with that and we will keep reworking it IF POSSIBLE (the situation does not always allow us to do that due to lack of resources, people, financial, time constraints, etc.) until we get it as effective and efficient as possible.
Accuracy & Precision are NOT the same thing. They can't be used interchangeably, not always. These terms & their significances are taught in science. Those are invaluable. Accuracy is the correct result or how close it is to the correct result & precision is if you perform the experiment and if you are able to reproduce that result each time without exception that's precise.
He looks so much like my former supervisor - an INTP.
Taking notes bothers the natural flow of ti. Ti needs to have a flow to build on. If you cut it in the middle with another cognitive focus of writing you ruin the flow and it's hard to understand.
The truth dosnt care how i feel about it 😊
Tale a sip everytime they say true.
I went with mum to get my cat put down and the vet said his spirit would live on/he would come back in another form and I -through the pain of loss- flatly corrected her and told her that his energy was stored in the chemical bonds in his body, which would degrade after he died.
Respectfully be accommodating to the existential needs of the emerging situation by the re-registration of the machinations of the logician.
😁
Handle the situation with honour by reiterating the Ti dominant's schemes?
Min 12:45 it's funny that I think I'm infp and I usually look at the number of likes on a photo to decide whether or not to give it a like: if it has too many or is too popular I don't do it, I prefer to support the unpopular 😆
That's very Fi of you, @leonor GRM! Haha.
@@JoyceMeng22 😆
💕
That example about the guy thinking he was going down in the comments vs going up and instantly understanding once he knew he was scrolling up is not a difficult concept and may not be an example of Ti, or maybe it is. That is actually really obvious and easy though. It's an instant understanding for me. Maybe I am using Ti more than I realize, or maybe this is a function of Te and he is conflating Te and Ti?
Also with regard to what he said about getting annoyed that someone who is building an increasingly unstable structure based off of an inaccurate foundation, that is totally something that happens to me all the time. It's really annoying to observe someone's false premise and not be allowed to get that stipulated and corrected before moving forward in the discussion. Again, as an INTJ, this is very common for me, so I may be using Ti more than I realized because I just thought of these as Te things. Not always, but I often do go ahead and interrupt them to make sure we both stay on the same page. Yes, sometimes they think I am rude but honestly, most of the time they understand and are perfectly willing to stop and re-assess their "facts" with me before moving forward.
I am an INTJ and my brother is an ISTP and he is a great electrician. He is also a HUGE Trump fan and we used to around and around with the logic behind his love of Trump and why it is based on false assumptions about the man. I never could follow his reasoning because not only do I have a strong background in psychology which gives me a framework for understanding Trump's dysfunctions at a very obvious level; but more importantly, I have personal experience with the ACTUAL truth of what it means to be someone with Narcissistic Personality Disorder (NPD). I have known a narcissist intimately for many years and was abused and traumatized by this person, who is just like Trump. And while my brother has dom Ti, he just does not have the personal experience I have with NPD and he really has no understanding whatsoever how it works, so he is not working with all the facts, not even close. But he is too arrogant to accept this. He calls me arrogant. Sigh....needless to say I do not allow him to lure me into political discussions anymore. I will tell him I'm not going there with him and I'll change the subject. Ti users must always take into account their level of experience on a matter. This is critical.
Hmm, guess that’s a Ti sensor issue or if he was hearing your logical argument as making anecdotal over generalizations
I’m an INFJ and my brother is an INTP, both Ti-Fe intuitives. We’re super aware of where we’re having to make assumptions and will note when we’re guessing or going off our own personal experiences. We can be persuaded to different views with quality evidence that’s on par or better than what we had been working with. When it comes to trump, we saw the logical problems with the earlier versions of that movement when it took over our community when we were kids/teens in the 90s/00s
How could it work not be "true"? If it works there is an element of truth. It might be better to look at it less in the binary. Some things can be efficacious but morally questionable or true in some sense but not in others and the point of building frameworks of truth is that they elegantly connect (coherence) and are based on a more solid foundation of truth claims (empirically observable).
And what my mind is thinking this whole time, is that you are not qualifying your statements with objectivity or standard definitions that would make your statements on Truth accessible. The idea of what is truthiness is, is located within your private understanding.
Re the reason to go or not go....okay, here is some logic for you. The REASON to NOT GO is BECAUSE you do not WANT to go, LOL. Your desires DO count as a factor to incorporate in your reasoning. I actually learned this in my twenties and it has made all the difference. Please read some philosophy books. Check out Cicero and Aristotle. I think you'll find a lot of value in those.
TI = True False True False FI = Right Wrong Right Wrong 😊