It's easy to critique a video, but it seems many people don't bother to leave positive input. I noticed immediately while watching this that you make claims, and then right away provide examples that are indisputable and make one go "oh yea, that's very true and a huge issue". Very logical mind, and I really appreciate the informative WoW content.
Not my job to leave positive input. I am the consumer that paid to play a game to have fun. If the designers make objectively bad content it's their problem entirely. They need to fire the designers and get more qualified employees.
I had a frost dk in mists 8, who cried for the whole dungeon about my dps as augmentation evoker. There are still people, who do not know the augmentations gimmick😂
We DPS love you Augmentation Evokers! Your role is literally in your spec name and that is make us DPS kick ass. That Frost DK is most likely self loathing that they didn't know how to press their buttons and take advantage of Augs. Keep doing what you are doing Mates
You should tell them next time “Do you not know your own DPS numbers well enough to tell that your numbers are up?” I’m a fan of Augmentation Evokers, keep at it, king!
5:30 Encapsulates why this season feels so much harder. The healer has more kicks than the entire group combined. In the past, the dps were used to getting carried by the tank and healer and now the dungeons require the majority of the group to actually use their entire tool set. I've gone entire runs with a dps who doesn't use a single defensive cooldown.
what i hate about mythic plus is the MDI mindset, that Mplus players have. my io is 2417 ilvl 620 ( I have all keys timed @ 9 and a 10 ) i play MM hunter and i sit in the que for hours getting decline ..even grps with much lower io will decline me
Idk what blizzard is thinking with m+ right now, making dying even more punishing than it was with it having been -5 seconds, losing damage, having to run back. That ontop of having both fortified and tyrannical and making stuns etc not actually interrupt a cast anymore as emphasized in the vid. Affixes also just feel completely useless, the orb one was alright, the emmisary was just a chore and it felt like it lost you more time having to occasionally wait for it to spawn and kill it alone cause it spawned after a pack or a boss. The current affix is also extremely easy to negate and just feels like one more thing you have to deal with but really making an affix that certain classes can instantly remove each time while the others can´t? The crit is nice but that's about it. Also god forbid someone dies while having one pixel of the debuff left cause then they instantly start healing every single enemy/boss you're currently fighting. Then there are 12 keys which remove the unique thing about keys and just buff every single enemy in a dungeon, who honestly thought that removing the very thing that makes each week unique is a good idea.
@@marton_horvath a lot of affixes had to be removed due to the direction m+ went, like imagine necrotic/sanguine affix today would be a no key week or bdk only week. Also as stated before they're removing the affixes that make each week unique in a 12 while going the "more health/dmg = good difficulty". Some of the previous affixes should definitely have been kept like explosive and just not have it scale with enemies.
@@gMars299 Nothing "had to" be removed, they have infinite options to change affixes. You now say that explo could've stayed. Other people hated it. Others hate what we have now. There are always complaining and no real discussion. The only real complaint I saw in DF was what Ellesmere said: people were nowhere near their dps or healing potential when oneshot mechanics already started bricking keys, but even this only really affected the top players. _My_ only problem was how you were locked into doing 2 instances tops for bis gear for 99% of your characters.
All the things mentioned are valid but the gearing progression system is 90% of the reason it feels harder. In season 4 DF you needed to do an 8 to get myth track gear in your vault, now it's 10. Aspect crests could be obtained in a 6, now you need to do a 9 to get gilded. We are doing 2-4 key levels higher for the same rewards so the jumps are much harder to achieve.
My problem is that there's TOO much going on. Too many trash packs with abilities and mechanics that you have to know. If it was just the bosses (like it is in Lost Ark) it would be more fun and beginner-friendly, imo. Right now if I want to start doing M+ I need to learn countless spells and tactics for EIGHT dungeons at once, and my head starts to ache after learning just one of them. My solution would be to focus more on bosses and remove some trash.
@@elis435 first, yes m+ should be rewarding, what it currently is not if u cant do 9 because delves exist. yes m+ should be challenging thats why its infinitely scaling, but it also should have an easy point of entry. the difference betweeen heroic and even m0 dungeons ist just to big. lower point of entry does not harm the mode, its quite the opposite because it can bring more new people into one of THE endgame stuff. do u really want gatekeeping?
@@elis435 you didn't understand what I meant. I'm not saying M+ shouldn't be challenging, that's literally what its purpose is - forever scaling difficulty. What I find annoying is the amount of data you have to memorize in order to enter the dungeon. At this point trash is harder than the bosses. My suggestion is to put less trash so that the mechanics would be easier to follow instead of putting 100 mobs that all have unique spells and punishing mechanics.
I'm in an AOTC casual guild, and I personally play this game for group content. We are having a horrible time trying to motivate our folks to do M+. All through dragonflight we had a crew that would do a few dungeons every evening, now folks are doing their delves and signing on for raid nights. It's a vibe killer. Folks aren't learning the dungeons and just get frustrated doing them so they don't bother. This reminds me of what they did to raids during shadowlands, where they were trying to thwart the top players while the rest of us were struggling to get through the content. There were a few things in your video I was not aware of (like the kick changes), and I appreciate the analysis. Hopefully Bliz is listening.
i agree this feels like reverse shadowlands raids are really easy to the point i havent goteen aotc since dentathrius and i killed ansurek in 16 pulls on heroic. while i have 3 +10's timed. imo timing 1 10 this season is much harder than heroic raid.
The insight about this being a game of knowledge is a key one. As a healer main you get to enjoy it a lot, even your own at times. You also enjoy the blame but nothing new there. Well thought out video with clear examples. Thank you.
Why would Blizzard think something like Challenger's Peril would be a good thing to implement, as you well explained, at the beginning of a new expansion? Or even at att? That's odd.
Keys in general are just too punishing. Pugs in general are rarely perfect. And now the 7 affix basically means one wipe = dead key. Not to mention scaling is wildly screwed. First few bosses in NW. nothing special. Then you get to Stitchflesh and the boss is buggy AF, and overtuned. You basically have to cheese it and hope you don’t bug out the hooks
Its almost like theres endless resources of information on dungeons and raids for strategies and nobody *DOES THE RESEARCH*. They just jump in blind and let Darwins Law take the wheel. It's rediculous how I've seen people not know mechanics in a +10 dungeon. Like at that point its REQUIRED you know your shit.
A lot of the gatekeepers need to stop this attitude that "certain styles" of content are the only places that powerful rewards belong. Blizzard is a business. They need to prioritize what keeps people engaged in content rather than making sure the top .05 percent of players maintain their superiority complex.
The problem isn't not knowing, it's not asking beforehand. Not knowing a dungeon is normal. But going in a key expecting to be carried by other players while doing none of the mechanics is completely crazy. People just don't care about the game anymore, they just want loot without the will to actually play the dungeon.
Great vid and examples of what we are struggling with in mythics. They have been downright demoralizing, I literally went in one where we completed in time, +2'ed the key from an 8 even and people were still hostile about what I did wrong on my Mage, and I literally got a lecture in a non-constructive manner (dude you needed to blippin interrupt this, and why the F did you remove a curse on dps and not the tank blah blah blah). I was just shocked, and didn't have the energy to respond. When you get 3 in a row where the mood is just icky, win or lose, pugging is not even worth it, rather not upgrade my gear and hope for gilded from raid or some other place.
Good video. You are obviously right. What also does not help is it looks like the dungeons are again a bit more difficult with more going on than in DF. Every expansion the mechanics get wilder. For newer players or players who want to learn a new spec or even role there's no room for it anymore. Like i am a main healer for forever (surprise on your channel) tried in DF season 2 for the first time the other 2 roles (alts). I was able to step in M+2 and do a lot wrong while slowly learning and getting experience. I had content i was able to do on my crappy skill-level, it wasn't a wipe-fest allthough even on +4 i had my first untimed keys. It was doable to get into tanking and at the end of the season i had uldaman +12 timed and freehold on +16 (and the other dungeons in between) as brewmaster with way too much ilvl probably for the content. I was pretty proud. When you would translate that to current TWW keylevels i think i would never get into M+ at all. To be honest, i am not even going to try dps and tank this season because of this.
First dungeon I did having come back to wow from many years. The tank just sprints off and pulls the whole dungeon basically. I was like fuck I gotta heal this guy. Yh he died
I thought the whole idea of Mythic+ was that the increasing scaling as keys go up is what makes it harder. Why would they think adding the 15 second death penalty at +7 keys and the (now) +10% health and damage to mobs at +12 keys was needed?
I've been doing mythic plus since legion and this is the worst start so far. I have no level of enjoyment doing these dungeons, especially the newer ones. And as a healer, it's been just torture. I think honestly Blizzard has only looks at data and stopped asking themselves if a decision is fun or not. And i think they are embarrassed when the top mythic plus teams pull form large packs of adds and pull onto bosses or burn them down efficiently, especially when it is showcased in a public / streamed event. I also believe that they also get embarrassed when the gap of keys are so large between the level of when gear level tops out (10) and the the highest key number achieved. Especially when it got beyond 25's. So in order to combat their perceived "problems" they have hurt the majority of the player base. By making a worse user experience, and abilities that work in old dungeons don't work the same way in the new ones. This is killing the enjoyment / participation for the ones that don't want go beyond much further than a 10, they would rather start again on alts.
Re the extra time loss and the increased toxicity it can generate in pugs: I predicted this would happen 😢 It really makes me scared of getting back to M+, since my last experience is from before the squish, and I probably overly anticipate that toxicity. Thank you for the video though, it's a concise and informative explanation of issues that are encountered in the M+ community overall
I think clean play in a dungeon should be rewarded. But currently, the scaling is making it hard to execute clean play in dungeons because we don't know the dungeons yet. Certainly, there's a small player fraction who were playing the new dungeons a lot on beta on top of having experience in the returning dungeons. But for the vast majority of the player base, I'm going to guess they don't have that many runs of each dungeon, given there's 8 of them and they take around 30 minutes to complete, not counting the additional forming-of-the-group. You learn these dungeons by failing them, and then introspecting on how you can play the dungeon better the next time around.
And it is way harder to find a group in +8. People either going 7th or 9-10. And it is hard to up +7 to +9 if it is not ara-kara or mist. When i'm trying to create my own group i have full group in a minutes if it is +7 or 9-10, but +8 i can wait 10-15 minutes, and i'm a healer. I feel, i'm stacked at +7 and can't go past it =(
Gear = Mistakes. With more gear you can afford more mistakes. Problem is these dungeons are some of the hardest dungeons we have seen in a long time. But now you have to do 9s and tens for the crests and Mythic track gear. At the start of an expansion, gear just isn't there, so you can't afford many if any mistakes, and then the new affix that punishes you even harder for deaths just snowballs even more ontop of the dungeons being harder. In Season 4 the dungeon squish wasn't that bad, because we had season 3 gear, which meant you could hop into 5's, (in old ranking 15s) and go ham. In TWW, with gear not being as good scaling wise as season 3 is. Like I said at the beginning. you just can't afford mistakes. With new people, and like she said, people hitting delves hard and heavy, this really did hinder your time in Mplus. What I fear, is that in Season 2 they might nerf dungeons a bit too much and our maxed out season 1 gear is going to have us hitting up the higher keys that much faster. Which is good for some players, but for new players is going to be putting them back into the same boat as Season 1. Where even in their nerfed state, you won't have as much experience and that alone with Challenger's peril will lead to the same problems we are seeing now. But at the same time, there are dungeons that for season 2 could potentially end up even more difficult than Season One Dungeons, and that isn't great to think about.
That's exactly me: I play. I get bored. quit and come back. I tried M+ as a healer main in previous expansions and got bitched at too many times 😂. Thank God for Delves.
The issue is ppl dont want to do more than the BARE MINIMUM. A dps will strictly ONLY dps, no stuns, no interupts, no focus targetting they just sit there, dps and expect to be carried if they dont know the mechanics. Im glad keys are harder bc its forcing ppl to actually do and learn mechanics but the issue in keys are the ppl who refuse to learn, do more than only DPS, focus important targets and do the actual mechanics and use defensives in a timely basis while trying to just out dps the mechanics and skate past keys like ppl have in the past. "Oh just out dps the mechanics or rely on others to pick up the slack" seems to be the avg wow player now a days.
Delves saved my ass and helped sate my alt addiction .. only 1930 io on main tho fury warrior . It’s tough getting invites after 6 keys so I may tank given I know fights for most part. Def they need to smooth out keys 619 a bottleneck for sure
People want mythic track and gilden crests easily and it's only week 3. You can be 620-623+ without even clearing one mythic raid boss, without crafting one piece of gear or doing one 9+ key. People are just impatient. There is a huge ilvl inflation, this is seriously a skill issue and nothing more. Plenty of people are clearing 8s+ in low 600 teens as well. Here is the reality, people want to avoid mythic raiding and have an easy source of full end game gear by doing easy high keys.
Its impossible to say how they are tunes at this point i think its perfectet that myth trait gear take some effort and after we have those in every slot then can start to think is it too hard or not when we are not undergeared to content 👍
First season since m+ came out I am not really doing any. Feels awful to pug, wayyyy too many additions that really need comms and has destroyed the pug environment. I dont think the change recently to +8 being gilded is going to do that much to inspire people to play it more.
I just finished timing my tens (100% pug) as an rsham. I’ve finished a few 11s as well. This season was definitely tougher than before, but I never thought it was unfair. When we wiped bc someone messed up that usually meant the key was over, but also you shouldn’t be able to horribly mess up a 10 and still time it. Only affix I hated was last week’s (emissary).
Your opinion isn’t valid when your spec has a monopoly on healing in keys lol. People are WAY more likely to invite you because of your spec. Even if you had no score
@@HOBOTw1tcH Starting anything with “your opinion is invalid” is a rough start. If you wanted to push 10s (old 20s) by week three in pugs then you should’ve been paying attention to the meta. People inviting meta specs is nothing new and that’s no commentary on the current season.
@@fsgajdfgasdfasdf230 10s this season are NOT equivalent to 20s of the past. Trust me. And I do pay attention to the meta. I’m a mythic raider. I don’t change class and chase flavor of the month like most people do. But as a mage, I don’t struggle to find groups. But the pug landscape this tier is a disaster. You can’t say you don’t have it easy being a resto shaman. The majority of the pug playerbase don’t have it as easy as you just getting into a key near the 10 level.
@@fsgajdfgasdfasdf230 yes it’s nothing new. But you can’t sit there and say “everything is fine” just because you have it easy. Outside of getting into groups, the dungeons and affixes are so horribly scaled, it’s a joke. Some keys are free. Some are basically un timeable walls unless you have the perfect comp or cheese a boss. The bump from 11-12 is a joke. The affix at +7 basically makes a single wipe or 2-3 misc deaths almost always brick a key.
@@HOBOTw1tcH LMAO - first off you don’t have to change to FotM because mage is always FotM. I’ve seen plenty of nonmeta specs in groups all the way up to 11. I hard disagree with your “if you play the meta your opinion doesn’t matter” logic. By definition most people play the meta meaning that’s most people’s experience. People are focusing on IO much more than anything else this season. Other than shaman for healing every other role has a solid diversity. Even healer is fine until you get to the 12-13 range. You’re just being dramatic.
I feel like the player pool has been diluted with the amount of content for gear. Normal & Heroic dungeons, now Delves, LFR, etc.; not to mention World content. Yes, more places to play for gear I get it. But, you jump in a que for a M0 and Raid IO tells everyone you haven't got a score. No shit, it's the beginning of the Xpac, but that doesn't matter because it's always like this. It's a M0 not a plus, get over yourself. Honestly, they should just make M0s queable. How much code would that really take. I've gotten used to the fact that you have to sit around for a half hour just to get denied so, even though my Ilevels are up, I simply don't care. Maybe I'll see you all in season 2 for a M+.
Because most player (and mostly DPS player) are bad and will downvote you if you tell them on reddit or yt. Tank and heal can be bad too, but they will mostly fail before 10, dps is easy life before very high content
To be fair 605 is pretty low. That's alt ilvl now. +5s can still fail with 2 wipes. Have you seen the ilvls that request? If you do you'll see 605 is at the bottom, and there are plenty of 610-620s all queueing up for mid-low keys for items. Delves and timewalking with crests has inflated ilvl. I have an alt I barely touch that is 607 etc.
DO NOT call it a “level squish” I hate when people do. It was NOT a squish, to squish would imply you simply start and end at the same point but it takes less time. You now start half-way up the ladder. If they removed LFR and Normal Raid from the game people wouldn’t call it a “Raid tier squish” they would call it what it is, removing content.
Let's not use words like "everyone". Not everyone is bricking keys. From a healer perspective, doing a 10 feels like doing a 21-22 in DF S3 (i skipped the entire S4). Dots start to actually hurt, and you can't keep people lingering on 70% health for very long, because stuff will oneshot them, so there is more pressure, but it's absolutely doable (Started 10s on 613 ilevel iirc). If you pug, you either get into a good group and you easily do a key, or you get baddies, and you end up disbanding on the first pull. This is exactly the same as any other season before. There are two things that give the impression that "M+ sucks now": One, people want maximum reward for minimal effort, and their solution to bridge the gap is complaining on the forums. No matter what Blizzard has done, people always complained. Sanguine is unfun, oneshot is unfun, kiting is unfun, cc is unfun. Some people go into +8 keys and perform zero survivability, or utility actions. The second one is that people are not really interested in discussing these things, they are interested in talking about their grief. Whenever someone tries to advise them, or explain why certain things are happening, and how to rectify it, their posts go into the void, and everyone just keeps repeating their own point, and that point is usually how everything sucks and how they should get the loot they can't get now, because everything is "unfun" and "undoable".
I get what you are saying but you have to remember most of us that did keys for gear did so outside of mythic raid to help fill in the gaps. More people are 4/8 mythic than have completed 10’s. They also lumped key pushers, portal players all in one boat. A lot of us don’t do keys anymore. A lot of heroic raiders do delves and raid. There are less people doing keys now than season 2. If nothing changes I see a lot of people taking a two year break.
if you're of doing 10s at 613, you're already one of the better, high percentile players. just accept it, flex and let everyone else have myth track sooner, if they make gear progression easier and make the 7-10 range easier for the scrubs you'll be doing 15s by then and not having to deal with the scrubs anyway. at least you wont have to queue for an hour if u just wanna get a weekly key for vault done, compared to a scenario where half the m+ playerbase quits. u can thumb your nose all you want but it literally doesnt affect you. theres always a higher key for you if u want more challenge
@@Shinn27 What's weird is that a lot of people go to "whining on forums" as the very first step. If you can't do a 7, what will you with the gear you get from a dumbed down 7? Get really decked out for even harder keys you can't do? My point is, no matter what Blizzard does, there will be people bitching about how hard it is until we get weeklies to walk into the vault for free mythic raid loot. Hell maybe even that would be too much. Also, I (and you) don't have to care if people quit, I don't work at Blizz sales. People also watch RUclipsrs like tettles and take their opinion at face value and voila, everything is undoable.
@@marton_horvath why the fuck u guys always talking about "free mythic loot" like we ask to just get in in mail every week? be glad u are not stuck now at not getting 10 fuckin mythtrack. its fun and progression suddenly taken away if u were able to get it in df. its just frustrating and currently its just not fun to make progress. tettles has massive L takes about this season. its just "cater to 1% everyone else should just get good" but the moment he just needs to get good he starts calling for nerfs. if u think doing 9 is like nothing u are just an out of touch egomaniac wanting to gatekeep others progression and thus fun in one of the biggest game modes. its so funny how all people not affected just dont care about changes that drive a lot of players way. because why should blizzard do anything for m+ if theres only the 1% playing and even they think bout quitting because of the waall from 11 to 12. a athriving m+ system and community is way better for the game as a whole. so u should care a bit at least because m+ is going nowhere if everyone quits. big walls like this are not helthy for the game. doesnt matter if its 6-7 8-9 9-10 or 11-12. and even the top players complain and scream for nerfs on 12 so why should blizzaard only listen to them? they should listen. is your ego really tht hurt when others get mythtrack gear thaat u want to gate keep others?
If you know what you’re doing, and you played for a while, the whole last expansion , you should do the Community a favor and play healer( and be helpful to new comers), stop being that guy that only plays dps and talks shit. You are the problem.
I think wow is far to easy now. It's only been 4 weeks and most ppl I know have AOTC and are hitting 8-10s. After 4 weeks! Its a damn long way till the next expansion, get some sun people.
AotC isn't the end of the content and neither is 8-10+ keys. These aren't supposed to be terribly hard things. Mythic raid's been around for 8 or 9 years, and +12 and up keys in particular are exceptionally difficult atm.
@@OakenTome In Dragonflight less than 4% of the player base did mythic raiding, I would say its less for keys 25+. AOTC pretty much is end content for most raiders. the get that and quit the game till the next season.
People running around with no enchants @ 615, it's a joke how easy delves and timewalking raid has made gearing. Seeing someone with a 619 weapon with no chants, you just want to cry. It's only a skill issue now. Week 3 and people are whining that they can't mythic track max their gear already.
I f'ing love the change to stops, just stacking aoe stops in the group and ignoring the majority of abilities in a dungeon was so dumb. Other than the change to crests we already got, I feel this is a great season of m+.
In my experience, players complaining that 7s are too hard are mostly the players that end a dg with no interrupts, no cc, no dispells, and less than tank damage. Another set of players complaining about this is those that geared up in delves as ez groups and also didn't learn how to play because it's way too easy. They start doing keys and that game mode is way too hard for them, even on a +2, and they end up being carried to 7s where they should not be until they A- learn how to play their spec well and B- learn the basic dg mechanics. I don't blame the players for this, blizz made the stupidest reward track this season and the game doesn't teach players how to play it at all.
we're 3 weeks into the season and already people are complaining, this will not be an issue when people catch up on gear. 9's are pretty trivial once you're 625+, and I can't see 10's being that difficult once 630+ either
Obviously you are right about that. But the problem is you need to do 9's to be able to get to 625. 8's aren't going to help you. I think it is tuned a tiny bit too hard right now. It doesn't help up to +7 you better just do delves, when it is about gearing.
@@flashyhooves1710 there are some easier 9's, Dawnbreaker this week is very easy with a semi competent group, Ara-Kara also, and Mists.. these are not that difficult to time. I think this is definitely more an issue with the players than the game. The whole point of M+ is that it gets harder the higher the keys go, right?
@@b-3-one no ones gonn take someone who didnt time 9 because why should they when people with 10+ join to farm crests. the current progression system is fucked. its either faraming 4s or 9.
@@flashyhooves1710 9s would give you full end up gear. You want that easily? You can be 620-622 now without stepping foot into a mythic raid or 9+ keys. People are just impatient, 3 weeks and they are whining about not having access to final tier tracks and crests.
@@Despond I am not disagreeing but we had access to those final tracks and crests in week 1 in previous seasons. So it isn't that strange people complain they can't reach them now.
just run delves and the raid. problem solved. if enough people stop playing m+ and the m+ pop drops, then blizzard will make the changes everyone is asking for.
i dont raid, i want to paly m+. by not raiding i am 10-20 ilvl behind, no matter how good i am. all last addons with grind you could keep up. now its impossible.
It's easy to critique a video, but it seems many people don't bother to leave positive input. I noticed immediately while watching this that you make claims, and then right away provide examples that are indisputable and make one go "oh yea, that's very true and a huge issue". Very logical mind, and I really appreciate the informative WoW content.
U sound like a neckbeard
tyvm
Not my job to leave positive input. I am the consumer that paid to play a game to have fun. If the designers make objectively bad content it's their problem entirely. They need to fire the designers and get more qualified employees.
I had a frost dk in mists 8, who cried for the whole dungeon about my dps as augmentation evoker. There are still people, who do not know the augmentations gimmick😂
We DPS love you Augmentation Evokers! Your role is literally in your spec name and that is make us DPS kick ass. That Frost DK is most likely self loathing that they didn't know how to press their buttons and take advantage of Augs. Keep doing what you are doing Mates
You should tell them next time “Do you not know your own DPS numbers well enough to tell that your numbers are up?”
I’m a fan of Augmentation Evokers, keep at it, king!
This is so real I had a BM monk ask wtf the evoker was doing in a +7 SV like friend be fr 🥲
5:30 Encapsulates why this season feels so much harder. The healer has more kicks than the entire group combined. In the past, the dps were used to getting carried by the tank and healer and now the dungeons require the majority of the group to actually use their entire tool set. I've gone entire runs with a dps who doesn't use a single defensive cooldown.
Dungeons and Raids
Runed Crests are now awarded up to Mythic+7.
Gilded Crests are now awarded beginning at Mythic+8. from mmo champion
what i hate about mythic plus is the MDI mindset, that Mplus players have. my io is 2417 ilvl 620 ( I have all keys timed @ 9 and a 10 ) i play MM hunter and i sit in the que for hours getting decline ..even grps with much lower io will decline me
Idk what blizzard is thinking with m+ right now, making dying even more punishing than it was with it having been -5 seconds, losing damage, having to run back. That ontop of having both fortified and tyrannical and making stuns etc not actually interrupt a cast anymore as emphasized in the vid. Affixes also just feel completely useless, the orb one was alright, the emmisary was just a chore and it felt like it lost you more time having to occasionally wait for it to spawn and kill it alone cause it spawned after a pack or a boss. The current affix is also extremely easy to negate and just feels like one more thing you have to deal with but really making an affix that certain classes can instantly remove each time while the others can´t? The crit is nice but that's about it. Also god forbid someone dies while having one pixel of the debuff left cause then they instantly start healing every single enemy/boss you're currently fighting.
Then there are 12 keys which remove the unique thing about keys and just buff every single enemy in a dungeon, who honestly thought that removing the very thing that makes each week unique is a good idea.
All the affixes were rather easy to negate, people decided not to, and complain instead. You got affixes that buff you, and people are still bitching.
@@marton_horvath a lot of affixes had to be removed due to the direction m+ went, like imagine necrotic/sanguine affix today would be a no key week or bdk only week. Also as stated before they're removing the affixes that make each week unique in a 12 while going the "more health/dmg = good difficulty". Some of the previous affixes should definitely have been kept like explosive and just not have it scale with enemies.
@@gMars299 Nothing "had to" be removed, they have infinite options to change affixes. You now say that explo could've stayed. Other people hated it. Others hate what we have now. There are always complaining and no real discussion. The only real complaint I saw in DF was what Ellesmere said: people were nowhere near their dps or healing potential when oneshot mechanics already started bricking keys, but even this only really affected the top players. _My_ only problem was how you were locked into doing 2 instances tops for bis gear for 99% of your characters.
to be fair this weeks affix can be cleansed by almost every class and the class that cant cleanse it has self heals (warlock, warrior)
@@IMTL2Q Oh piss off with your...*flips notes*
..common sense!
All the things mentioned are valid but the gearing progression system is 90% of the reason it feels harder. In season 4 DF you needed to do an 8 to get myth track gear in your vault, now it's 10. Aspect crests could be obtained in a 6, now you need to do a 9 to get gilded. We are doing 2-4 key levels higher for the same rewards so the jumps are much harder to achieve.
awesome vid loved this 1
Totally agree especially with the reduction to 2-10 keys from 2-20 keys
My problem is that there's TOO much going on. Too many trash packs with abilities and mechanics that you have to know. If it was just the bosses (like it is in Lost Ark) it would be more fun and beginner-friendly, imo. Right now if I want to start doing M+ I need to learn countless spells and tactics for EIGHT dungeons at once, and my head starts to ache after learning just one of them. My solution would be to focus more on bosses and remove some trash.
if you want beginner friendly and easy m+ is not for u , do delves or normal raids , m+ is supposed to be a challenge and feel rewarding
@@elis435 first, yes m+ should be rewarding, what it currently is not if u cant do 9 because delves exist. yes m+ should be challenging thats why its infinitely scaling, but it also should have an easy point of entry. the difference betweeen heroic and even m0 dungeons ist just to big. lower point of entry does not harm the mode, its quite the opposite because it can bring more new people into one of THE endgame stuff. do u really want gatekeeping?
@@elis435 you didn't understand what I meant. I'm not saying M+ shouldn't be challenging, that's literally what its purpose is - forever scaling difficulty. What I find annoying is the amount of data you have to memorize in order to enter the dungeon. At this point trash is harder than the bosses. My suggestion is to put less trash so that the mechanics would be easier to follow instead of putting 100 mobs that all have unique spells and punishing mechanics.
@@IsabellaQuinns I agree that it can be challenging without requiring you to know/study so much, making it more about correct gameplay
Yeah, they will change it when numbers and subs start tanking.
I'm in an AOTC casual guild, and I personally play this game for group content. We are having a horrible time trying to motivate our folks to do M+. All through dragonflight we had a crew that would do a few dungeons every evening, now folks are doing their delves and signing on for raid nights. It's a vibe killer. Folks aren't learning the dungeons and just get frustrated doing them so they don't bother. This reminds me of what they did to raids during shadowlands, where they were trying to thwart the top players while the rest of us were struggling to get through the content.
There were a few things in your video I was not aware of (like the kick changes), and I appreciate the analysis. Hopefully Bliz is listening.
ty! and that is frustrating, but I do understand them not wanting to take the time to learn these dungoens its not v fun rn & hopefully they do! :)
i agree this feels like reverse shadowlands raids are really easy to the point i havent goteen aotc since dentathrius and i killed ansurek in 16 pulls on heroic. while i have 3 +10's timed. imo timing 1 10 this season is much harder than heroic raid.
The insight about this being a game of knowledge is a key one. As a healer main you get to enjoy it a lot, even your own at times. You also enjoy the blame but nothing new there. Well thought out video with clear examples. Thank you.
Why would Blizzard think something like Challenger's Peril would be a good thing to implement, as you well explained, at the beginning of a new expansion?
Or even at att? That's odd.
Keys in general are just too punishing. Pugs in general are rarely perfect. And now the 7 affix basically means one wipe = dead key.
Not to mention scaling is wildly screwed. First few bosses in NW. nothing special. Then you get to Stitchflesh and the boss is buggy AF, and overtuned. You basically have to cheese it and hope you don’t bug out the hooks
ye thats why they added delves if u cant handle m+ got play delve simple no?
Its almost like theres endless resources of information on dungeons and raids for strategies and nobody *DOES THE RESEARCH*. They just jump in blind and let Darwins Law take the wheel.
It's rediculous how I've seen people not know mechanics in a +10 dungeon. Like at that point its REQUIRED you know your shit.
A lot of the gatekeepers need to stop this attitude that "certain styles" of content are the only places that powerful rewards belong. Blizzard is a business. They need to prioritize what keeps people engaged in content rather than making sure the top .05 percent of players maintain their superiority complex.
I have also experienced this in M+ this season.
Don't spend money, cancel auto renewal, avoid their forums if you want change. Nothing else will change the game in a positive manner.
The problem isn't not knowing, it's not asking beforehand.
Not knowing a dungeon is normal. But going in a key expecting to be carried by other players while doing none of the mechanics is completely crazy.
People just don't care about the game anymore, they just want loot without the will to actually play the dungeon.
Love the loaf cat in the back 😂
Great vid and examples of what we are struggling with in mythics. They have been downright demoralizing, I literally went in one where we completed in time, +2'ed the key from an 8 even and people were still hostile about what I did wrong on my Mage, and I literally got a lecture in a non-constructive manner (dude you needed to blippin interrupt this, and why the F did you remove a curse on dps and not the tank blah blah blah). I was just shocked, and didn't have the energy to respond. When you get 3 in a row where the mood is just icky, win or lose, pugging is not even worth it, rather not upgrade my gear and hope for gilded from raid or some other place.
Good video. You are obviously right. What also does not help is it looks like the dungeons are again a bit more difficult with more going on than in DF. Every expansion the mechanics get wilder. For newer players or players who want to learn a new spec or even role there's no room for it anymore. Like i am a main healer for forever (surprise on your channel) tried in DF season 2 for the first time the other 2 roles (alts). I was able to step in M+2 and do a lot wrong while slowly learning and getting experience. I had content i was able to do on my crappy skill-level, it wasn't a wipe-fest allthough even on +4 i had my first untimed keys. It was doable to get into tanking and at the end of the season i had uldaman +12 timed and freehold on +16 (and the other dungeons in between) as brewmaster with way too much ilvl probably for the content. I was pretty proud. When you would translate that to current TWW keylevels i think i would never get into M+ at all. To be honest, i am not even going to try dps and tank this season because of this.
First dungeon I did having come back to wow from many years. The tank just sprints off and pulls the whole dungeon basically. I was like fuck I gotta heal this guy. Yh he died
I thought the whole idea of Mythic+ was that the increasing scaling as keys go up is what makes it harder. Why would they think adding the 15 second death penalty at +7 keys and the (now) +10% health and damage to mobs at +12 keys was needed?
I've been doing mythic plus since legion and this is the worst start so far. I have no level of enjoyment doing these dungeons, especially the newer ones. And as a healer, it's been just torture. I think honestly Blizzard has only looks at data and stopped asking themselves if a decision is fun or not. And i think they are embarrassed when the top mythic plus teams pull form large packs of adds and pull onto bosses or burn them down efficiently, especially when it is showcased in a public / streamed event. I also believe that they also get embarrassed when the gap of keys are so large between the level of when gear level tops out (10) and the the highest key number achieved. Especially when it got beyond 25's. So in order to combat their perceived "problems" they have hurt the majority of the player base. By making a worse user experience, and abilities that work in old dungeons don't work the same way in the new ones. This is killing the enjoyment / participation for the ones that don't want go beyond much further than a 10, they would rather start again on alts.
Re the extra time loss and the increased toxicity it can generate in pugs: I predicted this would happen 😢 It really makes me scared of getting back to M+, since my last experience is from before the squish, and I probably overly anticipate that toxicity. Thank you for the video though, it's a concise and informative explanation of issues that are encountered in the M+ community overall
I think clean play in a dungeon should be rewarded. But currently, the scaling is making it hard to execute clean play in dungeons because we don't know the dungeons yet. Certainly, there's a small player fraction who were playing the new dungeons a lot on beta on top of having experience in the returning dungeons. But for the vast majority of the player base, I'm going to guess they don't have that many runs of each dungeon, given there's 8 of them and they take around 30 minutes to complete, not counting the additional forming-of-the-group.
You learn these dungeons by failing them, and then introspecting on how you can play the dungeon better the next time around.
And it is way harder to find a group in +8. People either going 7th or 9-10. And it is hard to up +7 to +9 if it is not ara-kara or mist. When i'm trying to create my own group i have full group in a minutes if it is +7 or 9-10, but +8 i can wait 10-15 minutes, and i'm a healer. I feel, i'm stacked at +7 and can't go past it =(
Gear = Mistakes. With more gear you can afford more mistakes. Problem is these dungeons are some of the hardest dungeons we have seen in a long time. But now you have to do 9s and tens for the crests and Mythic track gear. At the start of an expansion, gear just isn't there, so you can't afford many if any mistakes, and then the new affix that punishes you even harder for deaths just snowballs even more ontop of the dungeons being harder.
In Season 4 the dungeon squish wasn't that bad, because we had season 3 gear, which meant you could hop into 5's, (in old ranking 15s) and go ham. In TWW, with gear not being as good scaling wise as season 3 is. Like I said at the beginning. you just can't afford mistakes. With new people, and like she said, people hitting delves hard and heavy, this really did hinder your time in Mplus.
What I fear, is that in Season 2 they might nerf dungeons a bit too much and our maxed out season 1 gear is going to have us hitting up the higher keys that much faster. Which is good for some players, but for new players is going to be putting them back into the same boat as Season 1. Where even in their nerfed state, you won't have as much experience and that alone with Challenger's peril will lead to the same problems we are seeing now.
But at the same time, there are dungeons that for season 2 could potentially end up even more difficult than Season One Dungeons, and that isn't great to think about.
Yeah stops not working like they use too feels so bad.
Mythic plus pugs have been brutal this season 😵
That's exactly me: I play. I get bored. quit and come back. I tried M+ as a healer main in previous expansions and got bitched at too many times 😂. Thank God for Delves.
The issue is ppl dont want to do more than the BARE MINIMUM. A dps will strictly ONLY dps, no stuns, no interupts, no focus targetting they just sit there, dps and expect to be carried if they dont know the mechanics.
Im glad keys are harder bc its forcing ppl to actually do and learn mechanics but the issue in keys are the ppl who refuse to learn, do more than only DPS, focus important targets and do the actual mechanics and use defensives in a timely basis while trying to just out dps the mechanics and skate past keys like ppl have in the past.
"Oh just out dps the mechanics or rely on others to pick up the slack" seems to be the avg wow player now a days.
Completely agree with this take
Delves saved my ass and helped sate my alt addiction .. only 1930 io on main tho fury warrior . It’s tough getting invites after 6 keys so I may tank given I know fights for most part. Def they need to smooth out keys 619 a bottleneck for sure
People want mythic track and gilden crests easily and it's only week 3. You can be 620-623+ without even clearing one mythic raid boss, without crafting one piece of gear or doing one 9+ key. People are just impatient. There is a huge ilvl inflation, this is seriously a skill issue and nothing more. Plenty of people are clearing 8s+ in low 600 teens as well. Here is the reality, people want to avoid mythic raiding and have an easy source of full end game gear by doing easy high keys.
Its impossible to say how they are tunes at this point i think its perfectet that myth trait gear take some effort and after we have those in every slot then can start to think is it too hard or not when we are not undergeared to content 👍
1:40 yeah very unintuitive, the smash puts the debuff thats you need to dispell FOR the smash
game feels hard again over 10 years. Hard = GooD .
First season since m+ came out I am not really doing any. Feels awful to pug, wayyyy too many additions that really need comms and has destroyed the pug environment. I dont think the change recently to +8 being gilded is going to do that much to inspire people to play it more.
…not to mention we pay monthly for the punishment
I just finished timing my tens (100% pug) as an rsham. I’ve finished a few 11s as well. This season was definitely tougher than before, but I never thought it was unfair. When we wiped bc someone messed up that usually meant the key was over, but also you shouldn’t be able to horribly mess up a 10 and still time it. Only affix I hated was last week’s (emissary).
Your opinion isn’t valid when your spec has a monopoly on healing in keys lol. People are WAY more likely to invite you because of your spec. Even if you had no score
@@HOBOTw1tcH Starting anything with “your opinion is invalid” is a rough start. If you wanted to push 10s (old 20s) by week three in pugs then you should’ve been paying attention to the meta. People inviting meta specs is nothing new and that’s no commentary on the current season.
@@fsgajdfgasdfasdf230 10s this season are NOT equivalent to 20s of the past. Trust me. And I do pay attention to the meta. I’m a mythic raider. I don’t change class and chase flavor of the month like most people do. But as a mage, I don’t struggle to find groups.
But the pug landscape this tier is a disaster. You can’t say you don’t have it easy being a resto shaman. The majority of the pug playerbase don’t have it as easy as you just getting into a key near the 10 level.
@@fsgajdfgasdfasdf230 yes it’s nothing new. But you can’t sit there and say “everything is fine” just because you have it easy.
Outside of getting into groups, the dungeons and affixes are so horribly scaled, it’s a joke. Some keys are free. Some are basically un timeable walls unless you have the perfect comp or cheese a boss. The bump from 11-12 is a joke. The affix at +7 basically makes a single wipe or 2-3 misc deaths almost always brick a key.
@@HOBOTw1tcH LMAO - first off you don’t have to change to FotM because mage is always FotM. I’ve seen plenty of nonmeta specs in groups all the way up to 11. I hard disagree with your “if you play the meta your opinion doesn’t matter” logic. By definition most people play the meta meaning that’s most people’s experience. People are focusing on IO much more than anything else this season. Other than shaman for healing every other role has a solid diversity. Even healer is fine until you get to the 12-13 range. You’re just being dramatic.
I feel like the player pool has been diluted with the amount of content for gear. Normal & Heroic dungeons, now Delves, LFR, etc.; not to mention World content. Yes, more places to play for gear I get it. But, you jump in a que for a M0 and Raid IO tells everyone you haven't got a score. No shit, it's the beginning of the Xpac, but that doesn't matter because it's always like this. It's a M0 not a plus, get over yourself. Honestly, they should just make M0s queable. How much code would that really take. I've gotten used to the fact that you have to sit around for a half hour just to get denied so, even though my Ilevels are up, I simply don't care. Maybe I'll see you all in season 2 for a M+.
Not everything needs to be completable by everyone. If the content is too hard for you, don't do it, or practice and get better so that you can.
Im a new player and my mind is if i dont know what it is run
its almost like blizzard wants to kill their own game...
Because most player (and mostly DPS player) are bad and will downvote you if you tell them on reddit or yt.
Tank and heal can be bad too, but they will mostly fail before 10, dps is easy life before very high content
feels shit to be declined from 4 and 5's when ur ilvl is 605
To be fair 605 is pretty low. That's alt ilvl now. +5s can still fail with 2 wipes. Have you seen the ilvls that request? If you do you'll see 605 is at the bottom, and there are plenty of 610-620s all queueing up for mid-low keys for items. Delves and timewalking with crests has inflated ilvl. I have an alt I barely touch that is 607 etc.
@@Despond is that true or is it just because aholes only want people who are already 2K rio to do low keys?
ye thats why they added delves if u cant handle m+ got play delve simple no? if ur not pvp player u are not playing pvp cuz u focus on pve
DO NOT call it a “level squish” I hate when people do. It was NOT a squish, to squish would imply you simply start and end at the same point but it takes less time. You now start half-way up the ladder. If they removed LFR and Normal Raid from the game people wouldn’t call it a “Raid tier squish” they would call it what it is, removing content.
Exactly you’re now starting in a m+10 and people forget that
Let's not use words like "everyone". Not everyone is bricking keys. From a healer perspective, doing a 10 feels like doing a 21-22 in DF S3 (i skipped the entire S4). Dots start to actually hurt, and you can't keep people lingering on 70% health for very long, because stuff will oneshot them, so there is more pressure, but it's absolutely doable (Started 10s on 613 ilevel iirc). If you pug, you either get into a good group and you easily do a key, or you get baddies, and you end up disbanding on the first pull. This is exactly the same as any other season before.
There are two things that give the impression that "M+ sucks now": One, people want maximum reward for minimal effort, and their solution to bridge the gap is complaining on the forums. No matter what Blizzard has done, people always complained. Sanguine is unfun, oneshot is unfun, kiting is unfun, cc is unfun. Some people go into +8 keys and perform zero survivability, or utility actions. The second one is that people are not really interested in discussing these things, they are interested in talking about their grief. Whenever someone tries to advise them, or explain why certain things are happening, and how to rectify it, their posts go into the void, and everyone just keeps repeating their own point, and that point is usually how everything sucks and how they should get the loot they can't get now, because everything is "unfun" and "undoable".
I get what you are saying but you have to remember most of us that did keys for gear did so outside of mythic raid to help fill in the gaps. More people are 4/8 mythic than have completed 10’s. They also lumped key pushers, portal players all in one boat. A lot of us don’t do keys anymore. A lot of heroic raiders do delves and raid. There are less people doing keys now than season 2. If nothing changes I see a lot of people taking a two year break.
if you're of doing 10s at 613, you're already one of the better, high percentile players. just accept it, flex and let everyone else have myth track sooner, if they make gear progression easier and make the 7-10 range easier for the scrubs you'll be doing 15s by then and not having to deal with the scrubs anyway. at least you wont have to queue for an hour if u just wanna get a weekly key for vault done, compared to a scenario where half the m+ playerbase quits. u can thumb your nose all you want but it literally doesnt affect you. theres always a higher key for you if u want more challenge
@@Shinn27 What's weird is that a lot of people go to "whining on forums" as the very first step. If you can't do a 7, what will you with the gear you get from a dumbed down 7? Get really decked out for even harder keys you can't do?
My point is, no matter what Blizzard does, there will be people bitching about how hard it is until we get weeklies to walk into the vault for free mythic raid loot. Hell maybe even that would be too much. Also, I (and you) don't have to care if people quit, I don't work at Blizz sales.
People also watch RUclipsrs like tettles and take their opinion at face value and voila, everything is undoable.
@@captainkribble7665 And? How does that affect you or I?
@@marton_horvath why the fuck u guys always talking about "free mythic loot" like we ask to just get in in mail every week? be glad u are not stuck now at not getting 10 fuckin mythtrack. its fun and progression suddenly taken away if u were able to get it in df. its just frustrating and currently its just not fun to make progress. tettles has massive L takes about this season. its just "cater to 1% everyone else should just get good" but the moment he just needs to get good he starts calling for nerfs. if u think doing 9 is like nothing u are just an out of touch egomaniac wanting to gatekeep others progression and thus fun in one of the biggest game modes. its so funny how all people not affected just dont care about changes that drive a lot of players way. because why should blizzard do anything for m+ if theres only the 1% playing and even they think bout quitting because of the waall from 11 to 12. a athriving m+ system and community is way better for the game as a whole. so u should care a bit at least because m+ is going nowhere if everyone quits. big walls like this are not helthy for the game. doesnt matter if its 6-7 8-9 9-10 or 11-12. and even the top players complain and scream for nerfs on 12 so why should blizzaard only listen to them? they should listen.
is your ego really tht hurt when others get mythtrack gear thaat u want to gate keep others?
If you know what you’re doing, and you played for a while, the whole last expansion , you should do the Community a favor and play healer( and be helpful to new comers), stop being that guy that only plays dps and talks shit. You are the problem.
I think wow is far to easy now. It's only been 4 weeks and most ppl I know have AOTC and are hitting 8-10s. After 4 weeks! Its a damn long way till the next expansion, get some sun people.
AotC isn't the end of the content and neither is 8-10+ keys. These aren't supposed to be terribly hard things. Mythic raid's been around for 8 or 9 years, and +12 and up keys in particular are exceptionally difficult atm.
@@OakenTome In Dragonflight less than 4% of the player base did mythic raiding, I would say its less for keys 25+. AOTC pretty much is end content for most raiders. the get that and quit the game till the next season.
@@CybreSmee 1 singular look at wowprogress will tell you youre incorrect
People running around with no enchants @ 615, it's a joke how easy delves and timewalking raid has made gearing. Seeing someone with a 619 weapon with no chants, you just want to cry. It's only a skill issue now. Week 3 and people are whining that they can't mythic track max their gear already.
nah just get better guys :) or go play delves
I f'ing love the change to stops, just stacking aoe stops in the group and ignoring the majority of abilities in a dungeon was so dumb. Other than the change to crests we already got, I feel this is a great season of m+.
Welcome to the opinion of 1.
In my experience, players complaining that 7s are too hard are mostly the players that end a dg with no interrupts, no cc, no dispells, and less than tank damage. Another set of players complaining about this is those that geared up in delves as ez groups and also didn't learn how to play because it's way too easy. They start doing keys and that game mode is way too hard for them, even on a +2, and they end up being carried to 7s where they should not be until they A- learn how to play their spec well and B- learn the basic dg mechanics. I don't blame the players for this, blizz made the stupidest reward track this season and the game doesn't teach players how to play it at all.
we're 3 weeks into the season and already people are complaining, this will not be an issue when people catch up on gear. 9's are pretty trivial once you're 625+, and I can't see 10's being that difficult once 630+ either
Obviously you are right about that. But the problem is you need to do 9's to be able to get to 625. 8's aren't going to help you. I think it is tuned a tiny bit too hard right now. It doesn't help up to +7 you better just do delves, when it is about gearing.
@@flashyhooves1710 there are some easier 9's, Dawnbreaker this week is very easy with a semi competent group, Ara-Kara also, and Mists.. these are not that difficult to time. I think this is definitely more an issue with the players than the game. The whole point of M+ is that it gets harder the higher the keys go, right?
@@b-3-one no ones gonn take someone who didnt time 9 because why should they when people with 10+ join to farm crests. the current progression system is fucked. its either faraming 4s or 9.
@@flashyhooves1710 9s would give you full end up gear. You want that easily? You can be 620-622 now without stepping foot into a mythic raid or 9+ keys. People are just impatient, 3 weeks and they are whining about not having access to final tier tracks and crests.
@@Despond I am not disagreeing but we had access to those final tracks and crests in week 1 in previous seasons. So it isn't that strange people complain they can't reach them now.
just run delves and the raid. problem solved. if enough people stop playing m+ and the m+ pop drops, then blizzard will make the changes everyone is asking for.
You speak very quickly at times, makes it a bit hard to understand.
You you to talk slower and more clearly
i dont raid, i want to paly m+. by not raiding i am 10-20 ilvl behind, no matter how good i am. all last addons with grind you could keep up. now its impossible.
I'm farming 11s keys on my Puddly-Twisting Nether realm
easy af
Just bad players
git gud fam