My personal favorite was overdrawing the bow and getting the tip of the arrow stuck into the wood of the bow. Seems like utter nonsense but I remember reading about an English bowman who managed to do it and then attempted to dislodge the arrow by standing on the string and pulling up on the bow......the arrow went straight up into his jaw and brain and killed him instantly.....that guy rolled a 1 and had an intelligence score of 3.
***** As he pulled up on the bow, the string slipped out from under his foot shooting the arrow at full draw right up under his jaw. Imagine he is standing on the string than in one motion jerks the bow upward and as the arrow dislodges his foot slips.
+Mr. Pommel On the bright side, he probably had no idea he messed up seeing it'd probably have brained him instantly....that or it didn't damage anything to important and he died rather slowly.
feynthefallen As if a 1 was that rare. 2 d20 resulting in a 2 would be much more representative of such an event, but something like 6 d6 resulting in 6 or 3 d20 resulting in 3 would be even better
I remember one of the most weird Rolemaster bow fumbles was "losing your ear because you draw the string behind your ear". I even had it happen twice on my elven character. Quite embarrassing.
Hurting your ear would be unlikely, since it would take tremendous effort to overdraw a bow that much. Losing your ear? That borders on the impossible. Did your character regrow an ear between fumbles, or laugh off the second?
I don't remember if the GM just said that can't really happen :) It was pretty silly, but Rolemaster had pretty silly critical and fumble tables in general. You hardly ever died to losing all hit points, but from criticals wounds... like suddenly losing your entire leg or arm due to a sword slash.
Lindybeige The whole point of some of those fumbles were the sheer random unfairness of life. Over-draw a 150-lb pull bow and make your elf a little less pointy on one side? It could happen, although that was a rare chance. (More likely to shoot one's self in the foot with a crossbow, really.) Two of the nastier melee crits which were still mordantly hilarious. The first was ramming the pointy end of a spear or other pole arm into the ground and doing an unintentional low pole-vault, with damage and heavy stun result at the end of the arc. (I almost did that to myself with a halberd one year at Faire, so I can see it happening.) The other was the "100" result for two-handed weapons. "Worst move seen in ages. You are out two days with a pulled groin. 50% chance the foe is stunned 2 rounds laughing."
+ChamorruWarrior That is why it is a fumble. It's not a thing that normally happens, but today was the character's (un)lucky day. That was on a fumble roll of 100 on a d100, so that poor fellow REALLY had poor luck. Or he needs to buy some new dice.
Going from memory, here are some of my favorite MERP & Rolemaster fumbles: Movement Maneuver "You trip over an imaginary deceased turtle" Fumble with a 2-handed weapon: "Worst move seen in ages. -30% to maneuvers due to a pulled groin. Foe is stunned 2 round laughing" Polearm fumble: "The tip of your weapon sticks into the ground. If mounted, you vault ten feet off your your mount and take a C crushing crit"
That last one probably happened quite a lot in real history, with spears and polearms. Especially on long army marches, people getting exhausted and all. When they carried their own weapons that is, and not just load them on carts and stuff.
it actually exists in some treatises on fighting that to beat a spearman/ lancer you direct his spear downward so it rams into the ground, thus taking it out of the fight for a moment, and also likely hurting him too
"you step on a leatherback sea turtle, crushing it's shell and, are sentenced to 3 years in a dungeon. Thus, you lose your turn." I think i've made that objectively better, don't you?
Observations from the Bunker The three guys he was fighting were actually really cool about it, they saw them fall off and immediately stopped attacking and helped him find them!
I like the unrealistic fumbles to a degree, like unless I'm trying to take the game quite seriously. The really ludicrous fumbles tend to get you really good stories for example, me and a friend were playing a game, we get to the end of the dungeon, we did fairly well, and we are confronted with a dragon ( way above our level) so since we have little to lose we charge it. Turns out a dragon can fumble it's bite so much that it bites its own tail off for 6d12 damage.
I realise that I should thank you, Lloyd. Around Christmas time last year I was looking into getting my first RPG and I happened across your videos on the various editions of D&D and how Runequest was quite a bit better. Already trusting you with most things regarding people hitting each other with sharp bits of metal I decided to give Runequest a go. I've since had a tremendous amount of fun with it and I've managed to get a small group of friends into it. I had almost forgotten that it was your video that made me look into it in the first place, so once again, thank you.
Some versions of the Dungeons and Dragons systems deal with this not by having a fumble system, but by granting the already armed opponent an "attack of opportunity" if you try to draw a weapon, when they are in 'range to threaten' you during combat. I recall that Dragonquest had a combat system in which your degree of success or failure could have an effect on you. I seem to remember having a character be disarmed, switch to another weapon, be disarmed again, switch to a third weapon, loft that into a bush, and then ultimately change shape to tiger and rip the opponent apart in frustration (he was a tiger Shapechanger).
In my current 5th edition game the player choose to fumble if he rolls a natural 1. If he does, he gets an inspiration point (a resource point that allows you to reroll once basically) and has to roll on the Paizo's fumble table.
Drawing whist in melee provokes, unless it is part of a full attack wherein you attack as you draw. The attacks of opportunity are meant to help pull the turn based combat together by having reactionary actions and not "I swing, you swing." The fumble system is a 5% chance (a roll of 1 on a d20) of something "bad" happening. Typically you overswing and hit a tree or the ground and must use a move action to unstuck your weapon (or leave it and draw your backup), or you pull a muscle and take a minus to attack and damage, that sort of thing. There are, of course, silly things like you drop your weapon when you swing or the shield strap breaks (and some unmentionable silly things). If you want a great rpg for simulated combat, try Pendragon. In combat you and the opponent attack at the same time and whoever gets the better roll gets the hit in and the other guy does not. Upon hitting things like armor and shield/parry ability come into play to reduce the incoming damage (in some cases it nullifies the damage). You tend to die a lot early on before your character is skilled enough to hardly ever outright miss.
I remember reading in the Dungeon Master guide (2nd edition) that the one rule as a dm is to make sure the players have fun. If the rule books get in the way, ditch them. If creating a new table gets the job done. Do it. I created four seperate fumble tables for the playes and would roll a dice or have a player blindly select which one to use when a player fumbled. It added a layer of un-predictablility to the game when players got too familiar with the fumble charts. It got so that some players actually looked forward to a game fumble.
I don't like fumbles in D&D/PF because they penalize high level fighters more than low level fighters. High level fighters get more attacks meaning they have more opportunities to roll a fumble. Doesn't make sense to me. I just don't use them. We did use them in 1E D&D, possibly before RQ was released. House rules of course.
Do they? In RQ, fumble chance was based on skill level. My suggested rule is based on the skill of the weapon you are swapping to. In 3.5 D&D, fumble (optional rule) chance was related to skill because a second roll was made to see if the fumble occurred after the first was a natural 1. In each of these cases, skilled characters fumble less often.
Lindybeige If a character has four attacks per round that means they have four opportunities to fumble. Whereas a 1st level character only has one opportunity to fumble. Random chance is going to screw the high level character over the low level character. Even with confirmation rolls, the more you roll the more chances you have of rolling poorly. Five percent is five percent no matter a character's level.
tetsubo57 It evens out mathematically. Remember you have equally high chances to critically hit as you do to miss or fumble. Depending on how you build your character you're also capable of getting more critical attacks than a miss.
I'm not much of a role player but I train in MMA and I do a fair bit of foam sword fighting for fun on the side. Inexperienced fighters tend to be "gunshy" and avoid taking shots where as experienced fighters will attack more likely and in longer strings of combos (without being too reckless that is). Even though I attack with greater confidence in my skills than an inexperienced opponent, I still have more chances for something to go wrong than someone who doesn't attack at all. My punch or kick might get jammed, I might drop my sword during a swing, I trip while advancing or retreating...all of these happen but I still take that risk over the risk of not attacking at all and being on the defensive all the time.
tetsubo57 So, if a 1st level character and a 4-attacks-per-round character both made 20 attacks against something, how many fumbles would each make, how much damage would they do, how many attacks would they receive, and how much would each fumble cost them? Okay, yeah, if you make fewer attacks, you'll make fewer fumbles, but you'll also hit less often and deal less damage - a better measure of the effect of fumble rules is how many fumbles per attack and the average cost of the rule per attack roll...
Best fumble I ever expecienced was having to much strength, drawing with to much power and speed, thereby the sword flew out of my hands after drawing. (perhaps not the most realistic fumble, but we had quite the laught) "Well, gonna draw my sword", *huuurgh**woosh*," there it flies through the air into some warmer climate". Ended up boxing my way out with unarmed combat, invested some points in that. Really usefull in such situations, especially if you play a simplebrained barbarian like that. However, we did not manage to find the sword, so I guess it flew to some southern island spending the rest of it's life in a more peacefull surrounding.
I find a great way to give yourself a bit more time when fighting is to thrust the shaft of the polearm between their legs. Weapon shaft may not be able to kill them, but it's beautiful for tripping them up or at least making them lose momentum or footing, and thus useful in buying you time for your sidearm draw. Then they would have to roll to keep from 'fumbling' their legs :p
This is what Iaido is for. Not to mention why I find the dismissive way many "experts" on the net speak of such practices as "showy". Or merely ritualised combat techniques etc. There is a very practical application. It's actually more difficult and reliant on reflex as to whether in the heat of battle one could even draw their weapon in time to save themselves, hence Iaido. Nothing magical or mystical about it, it's actually very prectical. especially given the circumstances under which such practices were born.
GURPS has the Fast Draw skill, which is in turn subdivided into the various types of weapons you're drawing (e.g. Fast Draw (Knives), Fast Draw (Swords), Fast Draw (Pistols), et cetera).
+nick012000 I was thinking of this too. However it doesn't line up perfectly with what was described here. In it, you can draw weapon and attack in the same round if you succeed the skill roll. If you fail, you still draw the weapon, but not attack. You could still defend like normal. If you critically fail the roll, that's when the fumbles happen. Lindybeige's description makes it sound that drawing a weapon without successful Fast Draw roll should be something like All-Out Attack: you lose your active defenses for the round or get a penalty at least. Ah yes, I forgot the Close Combat rules. They apply when combantants are both in the same (1 yard) hex. In Close Combat you need to roll DX to ready a weapon and if you fail, you waste your round in the action but nothing happens.
This is Thrand!!! This is a very good point and I agree great time to fumble, happens a lot and have seen this happen many times and have done it my self in combat. Very witty and love the video great observation and would love to game with you one day :D
I play the old First addition AD&D, D&D any addition , Call of Cthulhu from Chaosium and pretty much any game system love all old pen and paper style games. Have played many different ones in the past if some one runs a system I will play. As for MMO's big in to the Secret World.
ThegnThrand I recently joined a game of Pathfinder ran by swordsage and we are starting a DnD5e game tomorrow. I am quite surprised at how many people actually play, as I didn't know anyone before but since starting I've learned of quite a few that I would not have expected.
I really enjoy your videos! Thanks for making them! Just speaking briefly on the "Shield Strap Breaks, lose shield" fumble. I've actually had this happen to me. I was in the SCA for a bit and had the interesting experience of facing off against an opponent with a greatsword versus my sword and shield, While attempting to close with him, I blocked several blows with my shield, the force of which partially separated the strapping from the shield which not only resulted in me losing the use of my shield but also my left arm and my balance (the timely call of "Armor Failure" saving me from a followup smash to my helmet). While fighters in the SCA don't necessarily use "Full Force" (particularly against a newbie, like I was), they do throw shots with a fair bit of wallop behind them, and use rattan weapons to do it with. For reasons of safety I would imagine reenactment organizations that use steel weapons would tone down their force even further for safety reasons which would make this "Fumble" an even rarer occurrence.
You could head over to r/dnd on reddit to see if you could find a group. Or if you want board games in general and don't mind playing over the internet you could try a game called 'tabletop simulator'.
Either you are simply a very competent sound editor or a very good foley artist and a good sound editor. Your sound editing skills the sheer variety of different sound effects you use are/is impressive. You've really grown a lot, youtube-content-creator-wise since I subscribed to you, which is a while ago. I just thought it was high time I acknowledge this phenomenon/change/whatever-is-most-appropriate-to-say. An interesting addition to roleplaying combat to be sure. Though I loathe to pile even more dice rolls onto DnD, than there already are, though this one sounds quite sensible.
It's important for sure. It's the kinda basic movement that should be trained and drilled separately over and over in order to decrease the risk of messing it up under stress.
I've got an idea for putting this in an action game. Step 1- press 'x' to drop your current weapon Step 2- press 1 2 or 3 to grab a particular weapon Step 3- after a set time frame press 'y' to draw the weapon, if 'y' is pressed before the time frame is up you fumble and a longer time frame is started, so spamming the key or predding early is equivalent to losing your cool and freaking out
This might be one reason that swords went so long without developing significant hand protection - if you mainly expect to use it as a sudden recourse when an enemy is rushing inside spear-length, a faster draw could outweigh the advantage of a complex hilt.
Depending on edition of Runequest, there IS a "fumble" for changing a weapon. In 2ed (chaosium) changing a weapon gives penalty of 5 strike ranks and costs 1-2 actions depending on what kind of weapon/shield you draw. There isn't a fumble table for it as such, it's just a flat cost since as you said, it happened so often.
When the table is playing with high grit we have an action time system - faster actions have lower values. If your roll is enough to pay for the time cost, the action happens on your turn as usual. If your roll is too low you make up the difference with your initiative unless it is so low you lack initiative to pay with. Dropping down the initiative at the wrong moment can be a big deal. It is as you say, have your kit sorted before a charge.
MERP (middle earth role playing) had a good fumble table just for comical reasons. my favourite will always be "you trip over an invisible deceased turtle and roll 10ft, you are very confused, and stunned for 3 rounds" I actually modified it and used it in a home brew 1st ed D&D campaign just to add some flavour and to make things more interesting (nothing like falling and breaking your favourite sword or shooting yourself in the foot while loading your crossbow) I also used the MERP critical damage tables to even it out
One that I often use for my own fumble tables is on a d100 roll for the outcome of the fumble, anything below a 20 results in your weapon exploding in your hands. 10 or below and you lose the hands with it. On a 1 it goes right back the other way to being a critical hit by sheer disbelief against the person you were attacking in the first place.
How does one fumble four-five simple motions?! 1:Drop Spear 2:Move Arm and Hand into position to draw sword 3:Grasp Hilt and Draw Sword 4:Move Sword into Ready Position 5:Attack or Counter ... Alternatively if you cant complete such simple task, then bash your opponent with your shield or ram your opponent with your shield and yourself, if the opponent moves during the charge just adjust the shield angle as your going by and spin about with your sword now drawn and ready for battle! (Also, a quick draw scabbard/system will eliminate any chance of fumbling anyways, handy things those are...)
Hi Lindy. I've heard you talk about spear and shorter weapons many times. I am an ex dark age re-enactment participant. I found swords hard to use, my weapon of choice was a spear or bow. I always used my spear two handed with other spear men (and women). Once the enemy had closed pass the spear point, I put the butt of the spear into the ground with my left hand a produced the Scramseax which I had held in my right hand with the spear butt all the battle. I got many kills with this 'surprise' attack, there was no 'drawing of weapons'
I have often played Runequest with the house-rule that drawing weapons with no encumbrance value (i.e. daggers, knives and the like) count as a free action, for the very same reason.
Well do I recall one particular fight in which I surprised the star fighter on the opposite side, going to dagger range instead of the sword range he was expecting. After I yanked hard about five times on my dagger in effort to get it out, he killed me. I was sure I had him.
Lindybeige I know that feeling, or when your back up weapon falls out while you are fighting without you noticing. You reach for your seax and find nothing but air. Worse yet is when you are on the ground in a grapple and your weight is on the blade you are trying to wrench out. You have it but you don't have it. There is one trick I use with my handaxe to avoid this problem. I put the handaxe in my shield hand, generally my small one. It makes getting it ready a cinch, though it does add weight to the left arm and can be a bit clumsy to hold onto depending on your shield's grip and the axe handle.
Weapon transitions are the same way even with modern weapons. As a former military instructor I can say we drilled transitions from long gun to pistol pretty much every range trip. It's still a huge issue. Look up transition drills on tacticool youtube for some examples.
The best weapon and other combat fumbles are from Arms Law, the combat system of ICE's Rolemaster system. The chance to fumble was a set unmodified % of the bottom end of your attack roll based on the weapon. The bigger or more complex the weapon, the higher the % chance, although it never exceeded 8%. If the fumble chance came up, the attack was automatically considered a "miss", ad a d100% roll was made on the appropriate category of weapon to see how silly the character/NPC/beast was going to look. (As a sometime reenactor myself, I know that when you do the Curly Shuffle you do look rather silly.) The critical results were realistic, and things one could imagine actually happen in the stress of combat with a bit of Murphy thrown in. This is the 31-40 result line for the various basic types of weapons. All results are verbatim! 1-Handed Arms: You slip with grace and lose the opportunity to get in the vital blow. 2-Handed Arms: You slip into a fog of mind. You lose 1 round in order to collect your thoughts. Spear & Pole Arms: You slip and are stunned for 1 round. All right, you just look clumsy. Try again. Mounted Arms: You slip and lose your saddle position. You lose 2 rounds but can still parry. Thrown Arms: You slip and hold lose 2 rounds to fully recover. You hold on to your weapon and can still parry. Bows: You fumble your ammunition. You lose 2 rounds trying to recover it. Real weak, kid. Needless to say, all the results are middle-of-the-road category, a result of "80" would have a graver consequence. I have actually done the result for pole arm and one-handed weapon myself so I can vouch for accurate game play! :D
in rolemaster there is skill quick draw, which when used succesfully, doesn't consume your turn(or that much of your turn). there is also small chance to fumble, when you might lose whole turn or even drop your weapon.
Actually, I have seen a number of shield straps go in combat in the re-enactment group I'm in- typically one of the enarmes will have the rivet pull through (have also seen it happen with a guige) rather than the strap itself snap, although I have also see a buckle (for adjusting whichever strap it was fitted to) come off with much the same effect. In the first case, the solution adopted was "use bigger washers when riveting the strap in, and check/replace straps regularly", while in the second, the lesson was to always check and maintain your stitching. In combat of course, those aren't immediately practical, but unless, by *incredible* bad luck all the straps fail at once, the shield can still be used, albeit with the same sort of delay you described in a weapon-switch fumble, as you get it re-settled (and possibly grip the forward enarme tighter, which can make it significantly more awkward to use while strapped to your arm, and so switching to being slung from a guige (or, if at all possible, held by a boss grip) is preferable). If,however, the enarme that fails is the rearward one, sitting by the elbow, then you really need to ditch it or switch it to a solely guige-slung as quickly as possible- neither of which options is optimal during a battle.
That's the exact reason that servicemen issued sidearms will practice, for hours on end, simply transitioning from rifle to sidearm, until it's dedicated to muscle memory. Perhaps there should a particular skill or feat one can take to reflect that training, which either negates the weapon-switching fumble or gives large bonuses to the roll?
Perhaps the moral of the story is to wear gauntlets that double as brass knuckles, so that your close combat weapon is already out. Sure, a dagger or sword might be better, but this gives you *something*.
+christosvoskresye The engineering of such gauntlets is pretty daunting. Proper brass knuckles have an extended shelf on the inside which rests against your palm. That is what is taking the brunt of the blow... if you just had the rings on your fingers, you'd break all your fingers after a few punches. But that shelf makes holding a haft difficult, so you'd need to re-think how to prevent your knuckles and fingers getting bashed up by the inside of the gauntlet. Plus, a metal gauntlet of any kind is a specialty item. Just getting a shell articulation to work properly on a knee or elbow is more advanced than most armorers today will get mastery of: gauntlets cover hands, and are thus a whole other level of complexity. The cost of a pair of custom gauntlets (i.e., made to fit a particular user) would be at least as much as covering both legs or as much as a breast and backplate. And that's just gauntlets that only work as gauntlets! So if they were to have a separate punching job, then in-game this would have to be a fabulously expensive item, more expensive by far than just about any other armor item. If I was GMing I would also make them prone to breakage.
fisharmor Well, if I were designing them, I would not really worry about putting the "brass knuckle" part that makes contact over the fingers, but rather have it project out from the back of the hand above the fingers. Ideally, this would distribute the force to the hand and wrist, not to the fingers, which as you say are prone to break. This location would not be connected to the articulation of the fingers, and the only movement it would interfere with would be bending the fingers backwards, which is probably not a good thing anyhow. At any rate, a little creativity could devise any number of variations. An ice pick could come out parallel to the heel of the hand, so that you would have an ice pick weapon that could not be dropped, for example -- though it might break off if used carelessly, and a combatant might injure himself with it if he forgot it was there.
Ah, Wolverine style. It could work, particularly if it's more weapon than gauntlet. But the other point is, the gauntlets I've made departed from historical accuracy in order to be able to put up with a bit more beating than historical gaunts would. Historical gauntlets (any historical armor, really) weren't meant to be pounded on incessantly - a lot of times they were an insurance policy, and nothing more. Getting a sword to the hand isn't plan A. So anything that assumes repeated stress (either absorbing blows, or punching with it) to the gauntlet is off the beaten path. Your idea could be done, sure... but unless you run into someone in-game who has already figured it out, there should be R&D and trial costs involved.
fisharmor The idea would not be to use this as a primary weapon, but kind of a backup in case of a fumble. And I strongly suspect that this idea was thought about in the Middle Ages, and it was either realized to be a stupid idea or simply proved ineffective. I'm thinking of something a LOT smaller than Wolverines blades (good comparison, though), and probably blunt (to prevent self-injury). It probably needs to be good for only 5 blows before it shows damage -- if, after 5 blows, you haven't found a way to get your hands on a proper weapon, you're probably screwed no matter what. I suspect the disadvantage is weight.
fisharmor Maybe the idea is not that crazy after all. If you search for "Indian gauntlet-sword 'pata' - looking at history, form and martial art", scholargladiatoria has a video about a much more Wolverine-esque weapon than I was proposing.
Hey lloyd!!! It may not be common in reenactment fighting, but in SCA heavy list, blown shield straps happen now and again. In big melee's shields get hooked and pulled by spears and pole arms fairly often, so it's not an uncommon thing.
Jeez, you've had so many experiences similar to mine with RPGs. We did our own fumble table as well, and we had to make a roll against it when drawing or changing a weapon. For example, an archer transferring his bow from his back, could whack another party member with it, thus slowing him down, and giving him a negative on his roll for attack for that round. We tried to make it as realistic as possible, such as said archer drawing an arrow from his quiver might have a fumble where he drops the arrow, damages the fletching, or simply pushes arrows around in the quiver while trying to grab one.
"I've not known it represented in any roleplay or skirmish game" -- well of course Lindy, no game creators I think participated in or asked any reenactors. While I never thought of it for historical combat, I am familiar with a type of fumbling in modern combat when switching from a primary weapon to an assault rifle or handgun. That was one of things that bothered me the most about video games representing guns is how quickly and smoothly the player's character would flip from one weapon to the other. It takes a LOT of practice and oiled efficiency to switch weapons like that in a stressful situation, especially to do so without looking.
I'm currently working on an adventure RPG game set in a more realistic fantasy universe (with wounds that linger, have lasting effects, etc), and this mechanic would be great to add to it! Thank you, Lindybiege!
In D&D I was drawing my dagger after firing a greatbow, and joy of joys, natural 1 on the roll to pull it and attack with it. So I ended up dropping the dagger, which cut my bowstring, as I had let the bow fall to the side, and the bow smacked me in the ankle breaking my leg. I spent a lot of that campaign in a makeshift wagon from a boat we attached wheels to. She was called the enterprise, and she was a beautiful craft.
An overlooked fumble is trippingand sliding, in SE Asia, several martials arts have very low stances like Penkat Sikat and some schools of samurai training.
About moving backwards: The guys are moving into your center, and you must choose a direction. It's a bit like that XKCD comic #135 that makes it clear that no matter what, you will not find a solution to the problem. Damn velociraptors.
RuneQuest was released back in 1978. Rolemaster was '80 and MERP at '82. In case you answered to the "maybe this was the first game to do this" part. I haven't yet seen any earlier RPG that had fumble tables.
The GURPS rpg actually covers this type of fumble pretty well. In GURPS each second is accounted for (with various rules to cover the lulls and circling that make up much of combat) . In GURPS when you change weapons it takes time. You can speed this up with a "Fast Draw" skill roll , fail it and it takes too much time (and you get done in) really fail (fumble the roll) and you might losey our weapon
I remember doing film work at Alnwick. I had an enemy soldier in a grip. Tried to draw a knife but couldn't. Sheath wouldn't play. Ended up picking him up, plate & mail & everything, and dumping him on the ground insteaf
When we enter a stressful situation - life or death from example - our brain goes into a hyper aware mode. Adrenaline rushes into a veins and blood rushes to our brain leaving our extremities. This is why the hands fumble in situations such as drawing a weapon. A clichéd example is the frightened woman fumbling with her keys in a dark parking lot. This is why we only dial 3 numbers in an emergency and why accuracy in a gunfight is typically extremely low.
Oathlords is set in a permanent bronze age (almost no iron present), so my fumbles mainly involve bent swords, broken hafts, and flying axe heads. Craftsmanship and metal or wood type plays a role. And no pulling weapons from your backpack during a fight. If you get attacked before you have a sheathed weapon in hand you get a penalty to your defense and of course it takes longer to attack. You don't miss an attack because it's not round based. Just slower getting going. It stays interesting because there aren't truly hit points. You get dominated, maybe a glancing blow or two, but mostly it's just obvious you're outmatched and if you stick around, in comes the death blow. You can still be wounded, bleed to death, die of shock, poison, etc. of course. You even have to pull arrows from wounds. Debating if I should use the bit about silk reducing the damage when you pull the arrow. Tod says no. :(
Common modern drill, two rounds from primary weapon followed by transition to secondary weapon with two rounds fired. Now repeat several thousand times.
I tend to have fumbles available for all situations in or out of combat (even though the rules only say it's in combat). One of my players was trying to sneak up on a wyvern with his rapier out (his bow was broken from a previous nasty fumble >_
My mother's group of D&D players (First edition, actually) made all sorts of tables, but mostly the DM just made it up if they rolled a low attack die. Actually, they made a lot of things that were clearly missing in the first edition, and there was a lot more actual role-playing in their games. I still find it more productive to make my own systems, though.
Back in my LARP days we all became extremely adept at this simply due to the existence in that particular rules system ("REALM") of the "Break" spell. Before we managed to get "break proof" weapons in character there was a phase where those of us of a thuggish disposition would be wandering into an adventure looking like ambulatory weapons racks. Before you scream "encumbered", those late 80's first gen padded weapons weighed more than the real thing ;-)
I teach defensive pistol shooting and tactics in the U.S. and I teach my students to alot the majority of their at home training to drawing their weapon in any condition they can come up with safely. (Unloaded and preferably using a snap cap, before anyone gets the wrong idea).
Fumble and Crit hit tables were present almost from the start of the phrase "a natural 20". So I would say they have been "in the game" almost from the start of Dungeons & Dragons.
With my Norman reenactment society it is common practice for men-at-arms to carry the long knife in the off hand behind the shield for quick grabbing when they close, fumbling is less of a problem and you can change weapons quite swiftly.
though of course only really possible with our strapped kite shields ps. I've had a shield strap break away from the rivet, as have others. It can happen when the leather gets wet
Due to the high probability of 'fumblage' when drawing a shorter weapon is one of the reasons that warriors used to hold a hand axe or other such weapon in their shield hand when using a spear in the shield-wall.
I can't remember if it was an official rule from Solo of Fortune or something or did we just make it up ourselves, but we had draw rolls and fumbles in Cyberpunk. You could use your whole turn to draw a weapon without a roll, or you could try to "quick draw" to still get an action with some penalties. If you failed the roll there was a fumble table for it. And no you didn't need to roll a 1. Just failing was enough in this case. Lowest fumbles were just using the turn anyway but keeping the penalties for next round, or just not getting the weapon out basicly wasting your turn. Biggest ones were like basicly throwing your weapon 1d6 meters away or even shooting/hitting yourself for the weapons damage. The last one has caused quite a few grenades being triggered in the middle of the party. Nothing effs up your plan like having to either run out of cover or take a grenade blast in the face :D
The main problem of this changing weapon fumble is that you only know that has critically missed when you have already attacked. That is, you just roll to attack when you have your weapon already dwan
A very good and creative idea ! 8-) I'm working on a text-based roleplaying project at the moment, and I think I might include some version of this concept in the combat system (the combat is not the main point of this RP, it's stealth-oriented, so having weapon fumbles could add to the realism and make the temptation of using weapons a lot smaller). Thanks for this bit of inspiration ! :-)
I'm reminded of the older rules for warhammer 40k, especially regarding plasma weapons and rolling a critical miss. It was really quite useful in close combat, though, as guardsmen are cheap.
As a DM, any fumble/critical I had to deal with I decided on how I think gameplay be affected etc, did it further story or the action etc.. lot times tables and dice roles are not needed.. weave a story.. .too many people are hung up on dice.
Played a wonderful RPG with some really weird and severe fumbles. One person in the party was an archer and rolled the worst fumble and accidentally drew the bowstring too far and snagged his ear losing it in the process. He wasn't quite pleased with this but eventually accepted the loss of an ear, however things got very awkward when he during his next action got the exact same roll again...
As an avid larper this is so relatable, only this weekend we were having a game and i went bottoms up after trying to flee from some players who had me outnumbered and went straight into a pile of leaves. Lucky it was there to be honest as i wasn't wearing much armour, i'd wager the leaves were a lot softer than the floor haha.
GURPS has weapon switch fumbles! Well, sort of. You can either expend a turn readying a weapon and you're guaranteed to get it out, or you try and do a Fast-Draw roll which, if it succeeds, means you get it out instantly, but if you happen to roll a critical failure then you've fumbled and maybe even dropped your weapon.
In order to minimize fumbles like this, my school has a rule for using a backup weapon or knife: No matter what, every sparring match, you HAVE to draw and resheath it. Even if you got beat before you got to that range, just pull it and put it away. Builds muscle memory, familiarizes you with how the draw works both good and ill, and ultimately makes you a better judge of when you need to go for your short blade.
a problem that I had when in actual modern combat was that I'd get my rifle stuck in some of my hanging gear. one time I somehow managed to get a nylon strap jammed in my chamber. in the end I just dropped the thing and used my pistol. However after the fighting was over, I found that I was still dragging it around. needless to say I was the walking joke in my squad for the rest of my stay.
When I was in Iwo Jima for a ceremony for the war dead and some US Marines leave their dog tags to show their respect to the fallen dead. Me and my Navy crew ran towards a beach where battle took place to show respect to the fallen. Some had rifles and after 2 steps we were up on our knees of the volcanic sand and a few rifles hit the ground. The change from hitting water and then wet sand I can see terrain changes such as fighting in a marsh to be most if not all causes of military fumbling.
I do everything I can to get my spear caught in a bush...
Oh dear.
If only you could still find a bush...
But do you find it easy to draw your sword from a sheathe?
That would lead to a whole new fumble table, I reckon.
lol, I thought the same thing when I heard that.
My personal favorite was overdrawing the bow and getting the tip of the arrow stuck into the wood of the bow. Seems like utter nonsense but I remember reading about an English bowman who managed to do it and then attempted to dislodge the arrow by standing on the string and pulling up on the bow......the arrow went straight up into his jaw and brain and killed him instantly.....that guy rolled a 1 and had an intelligence score of 3.
Holy shit that sounds like a pretty dumb thing to do.
LiberumDux 1000 ways to die worthy.....so hilariously and profoundly stupid that his story survives modern day lol.
***** As he pulled up on the bow, the string slipped out from under his foot shooting the arrow at full draw right up under his jaw. Imagine he is standing on the string than in one motion jerks the bow upward and as the arrow dislodges his foot slips.
+YOGSCAST Seagull Haw haw haw!! OMG, hilarious. Poor guy.
+Mr. Pommel On the bright side, he probably had no idea he messed up seeing it'd probably have brained him instantly....that or it didn't damage anything to important and he died rather slowly.
"I attack the Orc" - "Ok, roll d20" - "Oh, a 1..." - "You hand the Orc your sword. He is grateful."
feynthefallen As if a 1 was that rare. 2 d20 resulting in a 2 would be much more representative of such an event, but something like 6 d6 resulting in 6 or 3 d20 resulting in 3 would be even better
+Robin Bernadinis you _do_ get the point of that quip, don't you? ...Ok, so it's more like rolling a one, and then another one on the saving throw.
feynthefallen That's why Runequest uses a D100.
DnD and Pathfinder just use 2d10, one is multiplied by 10, they are added, and that is a percentage
This is why i'm not a fan of D20 systems. No matter how good you are you have just as much chance of screwing the pooch as a beginner
I remember one of the most weird Rolemaster bow fumbles was "losing your ear because you draw the string behind your ear". I even had it happen twice on my elven character. Quite embarrassing.
Hurting your ear would be unlikely, since it would take tremendous effort to overdraw a bow that much. Losing your ear? That borders on the impossible. Did your character regrow an ear between fumbles, or laugh off the second?
I don't remember if the GM just said that can't really happen :) It was pretty silly, but Rolemaster had pretty silly critical and fumble tables in general. You hardly ever died to losing all hit points, but from criticals wounds... like suddenly losing your entire leg or arm due to a sword slash.
Lindybeige
The whole point of some of those fumbles were the sheer random unfairness of life. Over-draw a 150-lb pull bow and make your elf a little less pointy on one side? It could happen, although that was a rare chance. (More likely to shoot one's self in the foot with a crossbow, really.)
Two of the nastier melee crits which were still mordantly hilarious. The first was ramming the pointy end of a spear or other pole arm into the ground and doing an unintentional low pole-vault, with damage and heavy stun result at the end of the arc. (I almost did that to myself with a halberd one year at Faire, so I can see it happening.) The other was the "100" result for two-handed weapons. "Worst move seen in ages. You are out two days with a pulled groin. 50% chance the foe is stunned 2 rounds laughing."
+Marko Sormunen Having done archery for years... I can tell you that pulling the string behind your ear is not a thing... haha
+ChamorruWarrior
That is why it is a fumble. It's not a thing that normally happens, but today was the character's (un)lucky day. That was on a fumble roll of 100 on a d100, so that poor fellow REALLY had poor luck. Or he needs to buy some new dice.
Going from memory, here are some of my favorite MERP & Rolemaster fumbles:
Movement Maneuver
"You trip over an imaginary deceased turtle"
Fumble with a 2-handed weapon:
"Worst move seen in ages. -30% to maneuvers due to a pulled groin. Foe is stunned 2 round laughing"
Polearm fumble:
"The tip of your weapon sticks into the ground. If mounted, you vault ten feet off your your mount and take a C crushing crit"
That last one probably happened quite a lot in real history, with spears and polearms.
Especially on long army marches, people getting exhausted and all.
When they carried their own weapons that is, and not just load them on carts and stuff.
have you ever pulled your groin? more like "imobile for next 3 turns"
it actually exists in some treatises on fighting that to beat a spearman/ lancer you direct his spear downward so it rams into the ground, thus taking it out of the fight for a moment, and also likely hurting him too
"you step on a leatherback sea turtle, crushing it's shell and, are sentenced to 3 years in a dungeon. Thus, you lose your turn." I think i've made that objectively better, don't you?
"We started off with spears and then there would come a point."
-Lindybeige 2014
Well, yes. You wouldn't want your spear to be completely pointless, would you?
@@princecharonbuttspike of many spear jokes.
I love your humor. Also, the voices in the background is really hilarious to me. XD
3:47 "It's called the ground when it's outside." -Ron Swanson
I see someone quote Ron, I give a like
@1:11 if i had a penny for every time my spear got stuck in a bush.
I would be making money in a very weird way.
The best fumble I've ever experienced was some guy dropping his glasses in the middle of a massive battle. That was quite entertaining.
Observations from the Bunker The three guys he was fighting were actually really cool about it, they saw them fall off and immediately stopped attacking and helped him find them!
Monkey Well, you know what they say, a blind kill isnt an honorable one.
Lol.
Reminds me of a Yogpod story...
Mallthorin omfg yes!
@@FFX2P i am david
I like the unrealistic fumbles to a degree, like unless I'm trying to take the game quite seriously. The really ludicrous fumbles tend to get you really good stories for example, me and a friend were playing a game, we get to the end of the dungeon, we did fairly well, and we are confronted with a dragon ( way above our level) so since we have little to lose we charge it. Turns out a dragon can fumble it's bite so much that it bites its own tail off for 6d12 damage.
I realise that I should thank you, Lloyd.
Around Christmas time last year I was looking into getting my first RPG and I happened across your videos on the various editions of D&D and how Runequest was quite a bit better. Already trusting you with most things regarding people hitting each other with sharp bits of metal I decided to give Runequest a go.
I've since had a tremendous amount of fun with it and I've managed to get a small group of friends into it.
I had almost forgotten that it was your video that made me look into it in the first place, so once again, thank you.
A pleasure!
Some versions of the Dungeons and Dragons systems deal with this not by having a fumble system, but by granting the already armed opponent an "attack of opportunity" if you try to draw a weapon, when they are in 'range to threaten' you during combat.
I recall that Dragonquest had a combat system in which your degree of success or failure could have an effect on you. I seem to remember having a character be disarmed, switch to another weapon, be disarmed again, switch to a third weapon, loft that into a bush, and then ultimately change shape to tiger and rip the opponent apart in frustration (he was a tiger Shapechanger).
In my current 5th edition game the player choose to fumble if he rolls a natural 1. If he does, he gets an inspiration point (a resource point that allows you to reroll once basically) and has to roll on the Paizo's fumble table.
***** 5th edition is trash. Just don't like where they have gone with the system. 4 wasn't bad, just different. 3.5 was good. I prefer Pathfinders.
Drawing whist in melee provokes, unless it is part of a full attack wherein you attack as you draw. The attacks of opportunity are meant to help pull the turn based combat together by having reactionary actions and not "I swing, you swing."
The fumble system is a 5% chance (a roll of 1 on a d20) of something "bad" happening. Typically you overswing and hit a tree or the ground and must use a move action to unstuck your weapon (or leave it and draw your backup), or you pull a muscle and take a minus to attack and damage, that sort of thing. There are, of course, silly things like you drop your weapon when you swing or the shield strap breaks (and some unmentionable silly things).
If you want a great rpg for simulated combat, try Pendragon. In combat you and the opponent attack at the same time and whoever gets the better roll gets the hit in and the other guy does not. Upon hitting things like armor and shield/parry ability come into play to reduce the incoming damage (in some cases it nullifies the damage). You tend to die a lot early on before your character is skilled enough to hardly ever outright miss.
Dire Panthr Compared to RuneQuest, all D&D editions are trash ;)
Peter Keel Wouldn't say that. Rune quest is much more realistic, so if that is what you want great. If you want high-fantasy go for Pathfinder.
I remember reading in the Dungeon Master guide (2nd edition) that the one rule as a dm is to make sure the players have fun. If the rule books get in the way, ditch them. If creating a new table gets the job done. Do it. I created four seperate fumble tables for the playes and would roll a dice or have a player blindly select which one to use when a player fumbled. It added a layer of un-predictablility to the game when players got too familiar with the fumble charts. It got so that some players actually looked forward to a game fumble.
I don't like fumbles in D&D/PF because they penalize high level fighters more than low level fighters. High level fighters get more attacks meaning they have more opportunities to roll a fumble. Doesn't make sense to me. I just don't use them. We did use them in 1E D&D, possibly before RQ was released. House rules of course.
Do they? In RQ, fumble chance was based on skill level. My suggested rule is based on the skill of the weapon you are swapping to. In 3.5 D&D, fumble (optional rule) chance was related to skill because a second roll was made to see if the fumble occurred after the first was a natural 1. In each of these cases, skilled characters fumble less often.
Lindybeige If a character has four attacks per round that means they have four opportunities to fumble. Whereas a 1st level character only has one opportunity to fumble. Random chance is going to screw the high level character over the low level character. Even with confirmation rolls, the more you roll the more chances you have of rolling poorly. Five percent is five percent no matter a character's level.
tetsubo57 It evens out mathematically. Remember you have equally high chances to critically hit as you do to miss or fumble. Depending on how you build your character you're also capable of getting more critical attacks than a miss.
I'm not much of a role player but I train in MMA and I do a fair bit of foam sword fighting for fun on the side. Inexperienced fighters tend to be "gunshy" and avoid taking shots where as experienced fighters will attack more likely and in longer strings of combos (without being too reckless that is). Even though I attack with greater confidence in my skills than an inexperienced opponent, I still have more chances for something to go wrong than someone who doesn't attack at all. My punch or kick might get jammed, I might drop my sword during a swing, I trip while advancing or retreating...all of these happen but I still take that risk over the risk of not attacking at all and being on the defensive all the time.
tetsubo57
So, if a 1st level character and a 4-attacks-per-round character both made 20 attacks against something, how many fumbles would each make, how much damage would they do, how many attacks would they receive, and how much would each fumble cost them?
Okay, yeah, if you make fewer attacks, you'll make fewer fumbles, but you'll also hit less often and deal less damage - a better measure of the effect of fumble rules is how many fumbles per attack and the average cost of the rule per attack roll...
"Getting your spear stuck in a bush..." If you know what he means... xD
Hooray for inappropriate jokes!
Best fumble I ever expecienced was having to much strength, drawing with to much power and speed, thereby the sword flew out of my hands after drawing. (perhaps not the most realistic fumble, but we had quite the laught)
"Well, gonna draw my sword", *huuurgh**woosh*," there it flies through the air into some warmer climate".
Ended up boxing my way out with unarmed combat, invested some points in that. Really usefull in such situations, especially if you play a simplebrained barbarian like that. However, we did not manage to find the sword, so I guess it flew to some southern island spending the rest of it's life in a more peacefull surrounding.
"losing your footage" 0:53 thats a pretty bad fumble
very common in youtube and vlogger circles :)
I find a great way to give yourself a bit more time when fighting is to thrust the shaft of the polearm between their legs. Weapon shaft may not be able to kill them, but it's beautiful for tripping them up or at least making them lose momentum or footing, and thus useful in buying you time for your sidearm draw. Then they would have to roll to keep from 'fumbling' their legs :p
Good to see more from you.
Also,
"We started off with spears, and there would come a point..."
"You would ditch your spear and there would come a *point*"
This is what Iaido is for. Not to mention why I find the dismissive way many "experts" on the net speak of such practices as "showy". Or merely ritualised combat techniques etc. There is a very practical application. It's actually more difficult and reliant on reflex as to whether in the heat of battle one could even draw their weapon in time to save themselves, hence Iaido. Nothing magical or mystical about it, it's actually very prectical. especially given the circumstances under which such practices were born.
*practical even.
I used to play Maelstrom by Alexander Scott (an amazing game)... one of the fumbles was falling on your own sword and dying.
GURPS has the Fast Draw skill, which is in turn subdivided into the various types of weapons you're drawing (e.g. Fast Draw (Knives), Fast Draw (Swords), Fast Draw (Pistols), et cetera).
+nick012000 I was thinking of this too. However it doesn't line up perfectly with what was described here. In it, you can draw weapon and attack in the same round if you succeed the skill roll. If you fail, you still draw the weapon, but not attack. You could still defend like normal. If you critically fail the roll, that's when the fumbles happen. Lindybeige's description makes it sound that drawing a weapon without successful Fast Draw roll should be something like All-Out Attack: you lose your active defenses for the round or get a penalty at least.
Ah yes, I forgot the Close Combat rules. They apply when combantants are both in the same (1 yard) hex. In Close Combat you need to roll DX to ready a weapon and if you fail, you waste your round in the action but nothing happens.
This is Thrand!!! This is a very good point and I agree great time to fumble, happens a lot and have seen this happen many times and have done it my self in combat. Very witty and love the video great observation and would love to game with you one day :D
What rpgs do you guys usually play? What type of campaigns?
I play the old First addition AD&D, D&D any addition , Call of Cthulhu from Chaosium and pretty much any game system love all old pen and paper style games. Have played many different ones in the past if some one runs a system I will play. As for MMO's big in to the Secret World.
ThegnThrand Have you tried Savage Worlds and its setting Hellfrost? It might be up your alley based on your videos.
Sounds good but no have not played it :P
ThegnThrand I recently joined a game of Pathfinder ran by swordsage and we are starting a DnD5e game tomorrow. I am quite surprised at how many people actually play, as I didn't know anyone before but since starting I've learned of quite a few that I would not have expected.
dude i love your channel my man, i dont know why this stuff is so interesting
I'm really liking the pace of the channel at the moment
I really enjoy your videos! Thanks for making them!
Just speaking briefly on the "Shield Strap Breaks, lose shield" fumble. I've actually had this happen to me. I was in the SCA for a bit and had the interesting experience of facing off against an opponent with a greatsword versus my sword and shield,
While attempting to close with him, I blocked several blows with my shield, the force of which partially separated the strapping from the shield which not only resulted in me losing the use of my shield but also my left arm and my balance (the timely call of "Armor Failure" saving me from a followup smash to my helmet).
While fighters in the SCA don't necessarily use "Full Force" (particularly against a newbie, like I was), they do throw shots with a fair bit of wallop behind them, and use rattan weapons to do it with. For reasons of safety I would imagine reenactment organizations that use steel weapons would tone down their force even further for safety reasons which would make this "Fumble" an even rarer occurrence.
I have no friends, I cant play board games like these :*
Join the club.
You could head over to r/dnd on reddit to see if you could find a group. Or if you want board games in general and don't mind playing over the internet you could try a game called 'tabletop simulator'.
Snap, apparently i argue to much and I'm right too often, I'd love a friend like that.
At least you won't fumble ^^
RollD20.com is useful for that.
Either you are simply a very competent sound editor or a very good foley artist and a good sound editor. Your sound editing skills the sheer variety of different sound effects you use are/is impressive. You've really grown a lot, youtube-content-creator-wise since I subscribed to you, which is a while ago. I just thought it was high time I acknowledge this phenomenon/change/whatever-is-most-appropriate-to-say.
An interesting addition to roleplaying combat to be sure. Though I loathe to pile even more dice rolls onto DnD, than there already are, though this one sounds quite sensible.
Every time he says "Under Pressure" my brain goes "dun dun dun didi dun dun"
I listen to Queen too much methinks...
You're not the only one, except there is no such thing as too much Queen. Or David Bowie, for that matter.
I once played a flight game where whenever I killed an enemy the would say: "Another bites the dust!". That turned very karaoke very fast.
I hear ZZ Top "You've got me under pressure"
It's important for sure. It's the kinda basic movement that should be trained and drilled separately over and over in order to decrease the risk of messing it up under stress.
Best channel ever. Can't stop watching this.
I've got an idea for putting this in an action game.
Step 1- press 'x' to drop your current weapon
Step 2- press 1 2 or 3 to grab a particular weapon
Step 3- after a set time frame press 'y' to draw the weapon, if 'y' is pressed before the time frame is up you fumble and a longer time frame is started, so spamming the key or predding early is equivalent to losing your cool and freaking out
This might be one reason that swords went so long without developing significant hand protection - if you mainly expect to use it as a sudden recourse when an enemy is rushing inside spear-length, a faster draw could outweigh the advantage of a complex hilt.
Depending on edition of Runequest, there IS a "fumble" for changing a weapon. In 2ed (chaosium) changing a weapon gives penalty of 5 strike ranks and costs 1-2 actions depending on what kind of weapon/shield you draw. There isn't a fumble table for it as such, it's just a flat cost since as you said, it happened so often.
When the table is playing with high grit we have an action time system - faster actions have lower values.
If your roll is enough to pay for the time cost, the action happens on your turn as usual.
If your roll is too low you make up the difference with your initiative unless it is so low you lack initiative to pay with.
Dropping down the initiative at the wrong moment can be a big deal. It is as you say, have your kit sorted before a charge.
Well said! Applies to modern weapons as well. Important to practice drawing under a variety of conditions, angles, et cetera.
MERP (middle earth role playing) had a good fumble table just for comical reasons. my favourite will always be "you trip over an invisible deceased turtle and roll 10ft, you are very confused, and stunned for 3 rounds"
I actually modified it and used it in a home brew 1st ed D&D campaign just to add some flavour and to make things more interesting (nothing like falling and breaking your favourite sword or shooting yourself in the foot while loading your crossbow)
I also used the MERP critical damage tables to even it out
Videos are great way to relax in the evenings!
One that I often use for my own fumble tables is on a d100 roll for the outcome of the fumble, anything below a 20 results in your weapon exploding in your hands. 10 or below and you lose the hands with it. On a 1 it goes right back the other way to being a critical hit by sheer disbelief against the person you were attacking in the first place.
How does one fumble four-five simple motions?! 1:Drop Spear 2:Move Arm and Hand into position to draw sword 3:Grasp Hilt and Draw Sword 4:Move Sword into Ready Position 5:Attack or Counter ... Alternatively if you cant complete such simple task, then bash your opponent with your shield or ram your opponent with your shield and yourself, if the opponent moves during the charge just adjust the shield angle as your going by and spin about with your sword now drawn and ready for battle! (Also, a quick draw scabbard/system will eliminate any chance of fumbling anyways, handy things those are...)
Hi Lindy.
I've heard you talk about spear and shorter weapons many times.
I am an ex dark age re-enactment participant.
I found swords hard to use, my weapon of choice was a spear or bow.
I always used my spear two handed with other spear men (and women). Once the enemy had closed pass the spear point, I put the butt of the spear into the ground with my left hand a produced the Scramseax which I had held in my right hand with the spear butt all the battle. I got many kills with this 'surprise' attack, there was no 'drawing of weapons'
I have often played Runequest with the house-rule that drawing weapons with no encumbrance value (i.e. daggers, knives and the like) count as a free action, for the very same reason.
Well do I recall one particular fight in which I surprised the star fighter on the opposite side, going to dagger range instead of the sword range he was expecting. After I yanked hard about five times on my dagger in effort to get it out, he killed me. I was sure I had him.
Lindybeige I know that feeling, or when your back up weapon falls out while you are fighting without you noticing. You reach for your seax and find nothing but air. Worse yet is when you are on the ground in a grapple and your weight is on the blade you are trying to wrench out. You have it but you don't have it.
There is one trick I use with my handaxe to avoid this problem. I put the handaxe in my shield hand, generally my small one. It makes getting it ready a cinch, though it does add weight to the left arm and can be a bit clumsy to hold onto depending on your shield's grip and the axe handle.
demomanchaos
do you hold your handaxe close to the head when it's in your shield hand?
PsylomeAlpha Usually I hold it close to the balance point.
Weapon transitions are the same way even with modern weapons. As a former military instructor I can say we drilled transitions from long gun to pistol pretty much every range trip. It's still a huge issue. Look up transition drills on tacticool youtube for some examples.
The best weapon and other combat fumbles are from Arms Law, the combat system of ICE's Rolemaster system. The chance to fumble was a set unmodified % of the bottom end of your attack roll based on the weapon. The bigger or more complex the weapon, the higher the % chance, although it never exceeded 8%. If the fumble chance came up, the attack was automatically considered a "miss", ad a d100% roll was made on the appropriate category of weapon to see how silly the character/NPC/beast was going to look. (As a sometime reenactor myself, I know that when you do the Curly Shuffle you do look rather silly.)
The critical results were realistic, and things one could imagine actually happen in the stress of combat with a bit of Murphy thrown in. This is the 31-40 result line for the various basic types of weapons. All results are verbatim!
1-Handed Arms: You slip with grace and lose the opportunity to get in the vital blow.
2-Handed Arms: You slip into a fog of mind. You lose 1 round in order to collect your thoughts.
Spear & Pole Arms: You slip and are stunned for 1 round. All right, you just look clumsy. Try again.
Mounted Arms: You slip and lose your saddle position. You lose 2 rounds but can still parry.
Thrown Arms: You slip and hold lose 2 rounds to fully recover. You hold on to your weapon and can still parry.
Bows: You fumble your ammunition. You lose 2 rounds trying to recover it. Real weak, kid.
Needless to say, all the results are middle-of-the-road category, a result of "80" would have a graver consequence. I have actually done the result for pole arm and one-handed weapon myself so I can vouch for accurate game play! :D
in rolemaster there is skill quick draw, which when used succesfully, doesn't consume your turn(or that much of your turn). there is also small chance to fumble, when you might lose whole turn or even drop your weapon.
I really like the RPG related videos! You inspired me to pick up a copy of Runequest 2 and I'm learning it now.
I was once attacked by two trolls. One fumble later and they're both dead.
Actually, I have seen a number of shield straps go in combat in the re-enactment group I'm in- typically one of the enarmes will have the rivet pull through (have also seen it happen with a guige) rather than the strap itself snap, although I have also see a buckle (for adjusting whichever strap it was fitted to) come off with much the same effect.
In the first case, the solution adopted was "use bigger washers when riveting the strap in, and check/replace straps regularly", while in the second, the lesson was to always check and maintain your stitching.
In combat of course, those aren't immediately practical, but unless, by *incredible* bad luck all the straps fail at once, the shield can still be used, albeit with the same sort of delay you described in a weapon-switch fumble, as you get it re-settled (and possibly grip the forward enarme tighter, which can make it significantly more awkward to use while strapped to your arm, and so switching to being slung from a guige (or, if at all possible, held by a boss grip) is preferable). If,however, the enarme that fails is the rearward one, sitting by the elbow, then you really need to ditch it or switch it to a solely guige-slung as quickly as possible- neither of which options is optimal during a battle.
That's the exact reason that servicemen issued sidearms will practice, for hours on end, simply transitioning from rifle to sidearm, until it's dedicated to muscle memory. Perhaps there should a particular skill or feat one can take to reflect that training, which either negates the weapon-switching fumble or gives large bonuses to the roll?
Perhaps the moral of the story is to wear gauntlets that double as brass knuckles, so that your close combat weapon is already out. Sure, a dagger or sword might be better, but this gives you *something*.
+christosvoskresye The engineering of such gauntlets is pretty daunting. Proper brass knuckles have an extended shelf on the inside which rests against your palm. That is what is taking the brunt of the blow... if you just had the rings on your fingers, you'd break all your fingers after a few punches. But that shelf makes holding a haft difficult, so you'd need to re-think how to prevent your knuckles and fingers getting bashed up by the inside of the gauntlet.
Plus, a metal gauntlet of any kind is a specialty item. Just getting a shell articulation to work properly on a knee or elbow is more advanced than most armorers today will get mastery of: gauntlets cover hands, and are thus a whole other level of complexity. The cost of a pair of custom gauntlets (i.e., made to fit a particular user) would be at least as much as covering both legs or as much as a breast and backplate.
And that's just gauntlets that only work as gauntlets!
So if they were to have a separate punching job, then in-game this would have to be a fabulously expensive item, more expensive by far than just about any other armor item. If I was GMing I would also make them prone to breakage.
fisharmor Well, if I were designing them, I would not really worry about putting the "brass knuckle" part that makes contact over the fingers, but rather have it project out from the back of the hand above the fingers. Ideally, this would distribute the force to the hand and wrist, not to the fingers, which as you say are prone to break. This location would not be connected to the articulation of the fingers, and the only movement it would interfere with would be bending the fingers backwards, which is probably not a good thing anyhow. At any rate, a little creativity could devise any number of variations. An ice pick could come out parallel to the heel of the hand, so that you would have an ice pick weapon that could not be dropped, for example -- though it might break off if used carelessly, and a combatant might injure himself with it if he forgot it was there.
Ah, Wolverine style. It could work, particularly if it's more weapon than gauntlet. But the other point is, the gauntlets I've made departed from historical accuracy in order to be able to put up with a bit more beating than historical gaunts would. Historical gauntlets (any historical armor, really) weren't meant to be pounded on incessantly - a lot of times they were an insurance policy, and nothing more. Getting a sword to the hand isn't plan A. So anything that assumes repeated stress (either absorbing blows, or punching with it) to the gauntlet is off the beaten path. Your idea could be done, sure... but unless you run into someone in-game who has already figured it out, there should be R&D and trial costs involved.
fisharmor The idea would not be to use this as a primary weapon, but kind of a backup in case of a fumble. And I strongly suspect that this idea was thought about in the Middle Ages, and it was either realized to be a stupid idea or simply proved ineffective. I'm thinking of something a LOT smaller than Wolverines blades (good comparison, though), and probably blunt (to prevent self-injury). It probably needs to be good for only 5 blows before it shows damage -- if, after 5 blows, you haven't found a way to get your hands on a proper weapon, you're probably screwed no matter what. I suspect the disadvantage is weight.
fisharmor
Maybe the idea is not that crazy after all. If you search for "Indian gauntlet-sword 'pata' - looking at history, form and martial art", scholargladiatoria has a video about a much more Wolverine-esque weapon than I was proposing.
Hey lloyd!!! It may not be common in reenactment fighting, but in SCA heavy list, blown shield straps happen now and again. In big melee's shields get hooked and pulled by spears and pole arms fairly often, so it's not an uncommon thing.
Jeez, you've had so many experiences similar to mine with RPGs. We did our own fumble table as well, and we had to make a roll against it when drawing or changing a weapon. For example, an archer transferring his bow from his back, could whack another party member with it, thus slowing him down, and giving him a negative on his roll for attack for that round. We tried to make it as realistic as possible, such as said archer drawing an arrow from his quiver might have a fumble where he drops the arrow, damages the fletching, or simply pushes arrows around in the quiver while trying to grab one.
"I've not known it represented in any roleplay or skirmish game" -- well of course Lindy, no game creators I think participated in or asked any reenactors.
While I never thought of it for historical combat, I am familiar with a type of fumbling in modern combat when switching from a primary weapon to an assault rifle or handgun. That was one of things that bothered me the most about video games representing guns is how quickly and smoothly the player's character would flip from one weapon to the other. It takes a LOT of practice and oiled efficiency to switch weapons like that in a stressful situation, especially to do so without looking.
I'm currently working on an adventure RPG game set in a more realistic fantasy universe (with wounds that linger, have lasting effects, etc), and this mechanic would be great to add to it! Thank you, Lindybiege!
Shadowrun has characters roll to successfully quick draw any weapon, with bonuses depending on gear, etc
Interesting! IIRC, the GURPS RPG has the Fast Draw (Weapon) skill. Something to invest a few points in if you're a low tech warrior...
In D&D I was drawing my dagger after firing a greatbow, and joy of joys, natural 1 on the roll to pull it and attack with it. So I ended up dropping the dagger, which cut my bowstring, as I had let the bow fall to the side, and the bow smacked me in the ankle breaking my leg. I spent a lot of that campaign in a makeshift wagon from a boat we attached wheels to. She was called the enterprise, and she was a beautiful craft.
AD&D, aka D&D 2nd ed, has Critical Fail tables. Anything from dropping your weapon, stumbling, stabbing ones self, poking an eye out, etc.
An overlooked fumble is trippingand sliding, in SE Asia, several martials arts have very low stances like Penkat Sikat and some schools of samurai training.
About moving backwards: The guys are moving into your center, and you must choose a direction. It's a bit like that XKCD comic #135 that makes it clear that no matter what, you will not find a solution to the problem. Damn velociraptors.
Middle Earth Role Playing and Rolemaster had fumble tables way back
RuneQuest was released back in 1978. Rolemaster was '80 and MERP at '82. In case you answered to the "maybe this was the first game to do this" part. I haven't yet seen any earlier RPG that had fumble tables.
That moment when all recommended videos on the right hand side are Lindybeige.
Oh man two videos in one day
Father Christmas Lindy has arrived.
Love your opinions..
...on pretty much everything.
The GURPS rpg actually covers this type of fumble pretty well.
In GURPS each second is accounted for (with various rules to cover the lulls and circling that make up much of combat) . In GURPS when you change weapons it takes time. You can speed this up with a "Fast Draw" skill roll , fail it and it takes too much time (and you get done in) really fail (fumble the roll) and you might losey our weapon
I love fumbles in my RPG's. Make for hillarious situations and mindbreaking stunts to recover :)
I remember doing film work at Alnwick. I had an enemy soldier in a grip. Tried to draw a knife but couldn't. Sheath wouldn't play. Ended up picking him up, plate & mail & everything, and dumping him on the ground insteaf
When we enter a stressful situation - life or death from example - our brain goes into a hyper aware mode. Adrenaline rushes into a veins and blood rushes to our brain leaving our extremities. This is why the hands fumble in situations such as drawing a weapon. A clichéd example is the frightened woman fumbling with her keys in a dark parking lot. This is why we only dial 3 numbers in an emergency and why accuracy in a gunfight is typically extremely low.
Shield strap breaking has happened to me twice over the past decade or so of combat, so yeah, its pretty rare.
In Savage Worlds changing weapons is an action, and with a 2 handed weapon involved requires an Agility check, which allows critical failures.
Oathlords is set in a permanent bronze age (almost no iron present), so my fumbles mainly involve bent swords, broken hafts, and flying axe heads. Craftsmanship and metal or wood type plays a role. And no pulling weapons from your backpack during a fight. If you get attacked before you have a sheathed weapon in hand you get a penalty to your defense and of course it takes longer to attack. You don't miss an attack because it's not round based. Just slower getting going. It stays interesting because there aren't truly hit points. You get dominated, maybe a glancing blow or two, but mostly it's just obvious you're outmatched and if you stick around, in comes the death blow. You can still be wounded, bleed to death, die of shock, poison, etc. of course. You even have to pull arrows from wounds. Debating if I should use the bit about silk reducing the damage when you pull the arrow. Tod says no. :(
Best fumble ever: Role-Master: Trip over invisible, deceased turtle :D
Common modern drill, two rounds from primary weapon followed by transition to secondary weapon with two rounds fired. Now repeat several thousand times.
VERY interesting. I will need to think on this subject more.
I tend to have fumbles available for all situations in or out of combat (even though the rules only say it's in combat). One of my players was trying to sneak up on a wyvern with his rapier out (his bow was broken from a previous nasty fumble >_
I had an ad&d initiative system based on weapon length and speed that encouraged weapon switching that would go well with a realistic fumble one.
My mother's group of D&D players (First edition, actually) made all sorts of tables, but mostly the DM just made it up if they rolled a low attack die. Actually, they made a lot of things that were clearly missing in the first edition, and there was a lot more actual role-playing in their games.
I still find it more productive to make my own systems, though.
Back in my LARP days we all became extremely adept at this simply due to the existence in that particular rules system ("REALM") of the "Break" spell. Before we managed to get "break proof" weapons in character there was a phase where those of us of a thuggish disposition would be wandering into an adventure looking like ambulatory weapons racks. Before you scream "encumbered", those late 80's first gen padded weapons weighed more than the real thing ;-)
I teach defensive pistol shooting and tactics in the U.S. and I teach my students to alot the majority of their at home training to drawing their weapon in any condition they can come up with safely. (Unloaded and preferably using a snap cap, before anyone gets the wrong idea).
Fumbling while getting your sword out, my favourite.
Fumble and Crit hit tables were present almost from the start of the phrase "a natural 20". So I would say they have been "in the game" almost from the start of Dungeons & Dragons.
With my Norman reenactment society it is common practice for men-at-arms to carry the long knife in the off hand behind the shield for quick grabbing when they close, fumbling is less of a problem and you can change weapons quite swiftly.
though of course only really possible with our strapped kite shields
ps. I've had a shield strap break away from the rivet, as have others. It can happen when the leather gets wet
Due to the high probability of 'fumblage' when drawing a shorter weapon is one of the reasons that warriors used to hold a hand axe or other such weapon in their shield hand when using a spear in the shield-wall.
I can't remember if it was an official rule from Solo of Fortune or something or did we just make it up ourselves, but we had draw rolls and fumbles in Cyberpunk. You could use your whole turn to draw a weapon without a roll, or you could try to "quick draw" to still get an action with some penalties. If you failed the roll there was a fumble table for it. And no you didn't need to roll a 1. Just failing was enough in this case. Lowest fumbles were just using the turn anyway but keeping the penalties for next round, or just not getting the weapon out basicly wasting your turn. Biggest ones were like basicly throwing your weapon 1d6 meters away or even shooting/hitting yourself for the weapons damage. The last one has caused quite a few grenades being triggered in the middle of the party. Nothing effs up your plan like having to either run out of cover or take a grenade blast in the face :D
Best fumble result I ever saw was "trip over invisible unseen dead turtle."
The main problem of this changing weapon fumble is that you only know that has critically missed when you have already attacked. That is, you just roll to attack when you have your weapon already dwan
A very good and creative idea ! 8-) I'm working on a text-based roleplaying project at the moment, and I think I might include some version of this concept in the combat system (the combat is not the main point of this RP, it's stealth-oriented, so having weapon fumbles could add to the realism and make the temptation of using weapons a lot smaller). Thanks for this bit of inspiration ! :-)
I'm reminded of the older rules for warhammer 40k, especially regarding plasma weapons and rolling a critical miss.
It was really quite useful in close combat, though, as guardsmen are cheap.
As a DM, any fumble/critical I had to deal with I decided on how I think gameplay be affected etc, did it further story or the action etc.. lot times tables and dice roles are not needed.. weave a story.. .too many people are hung up on dice.
Rolemaster has great tables for this, including both weapon fumbles and quickdraw failures.
Played a wonderful RPG with some really weird and severe fumbles. One person in the party was an archer and rolled the worst fumble and accidentally drew the bowstring too far and snagged his ear losing it in the process. He wasn't quite pleased with this but eventually accepted the loss of an ear, however things got very awkward when he during his next action got the exact same roll again...
As an avid larper this is so relatable, only this weekend we were having a game and i went bottoms up after trying to flee from some players who had me outnumbered and went straight into a pile of leaves. Lucky it was there to be honest as i wasn't wearing much armour, i'd wager the leaves were a lot softer than the floor haha.
GURPS has weapon switch fumbles! Well, sort of. You can either expend a turn readying a weapon and you're guaranteed to get it out, or you try and do a Fast-Draw roll which, if it succeeds, means you get it out instantly, but if you happen to roll a critical failure then you've fumbled and maybe even dropped your weapon.
In order to minimize fumbles like this, my school has a rule for using a backup weapon or knife: No matter what, every sparring match, you HAVE to draw and resheath it. Even if you got beat before you got to that range, just pull it and put it away. Builds muscle memory, familiarizes you with how the draw works both good and ill, and ultimately makes you a better judge of when you need to go for your short blade.
As a regular user of the BRP (aka Runequest) rpg rules I'm very curious to see your fumble table - any chance you could post it up?
Mind sharing your fumble table? I love the RuneQuest system ever since you introduced it in your older videos.
I think the 'Rolemaster' system was out before Runequest and it too had a lot of Fumbling options in it.
a problem that I had when in actual modern combat was that I'd get my rifle stuck in some of my hanging gear. one time I somehow managed to get a nylon strap jammed in my chamber. in the end I just dropped the thing and used my pistol. However after the fighting was over, I found that I was still dragging it around.
needless to say I was the walking joke in my squad for the rest of my stay.
When I was in Iwo Jima for a ceremony for the war dead and some US Marines leave their dog tags to show their respect to the fallen dead. Me and my Navy crew ran towards a beach where battle took place to show respect to the fallen. Some had rifles and after 2 steps we were up on our knees of the volcanic sand and a few rifles hit the ground. The change from hitting water and then wet sand I can see terrain changes such as fighting in a marsh to be most if not all causes of military fumbling.