Formula 1's Dark History at Watkins Glen International
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 22 май 2024
- Today we're going to change things up a little bit, and instead take a look at some history in Formula One. We're going to look at some major crashes over WGI's time on the F1 Grand Prix calendar and take a deeper look at them. Along with this, we talk about improvements of safety, and a little bit about F1's early history in the United States.
Formula 1's Dark History at Watkins Glen International: Too dangerous For Formula 1
Turn notifications on and SUBSCRIBE so you don't miss a video! Also leave a comment letting me know your favorite part or how I can improve! Thanks for watching!
For Business Inquiries: gbarcus77@gmail.com
Twitter: / nascarfan4888jj
I do not own any of the footage in this video, all credit goes to the respective owners: NASCAR, NASCAR Media Group, Fox, NBC, NBC Sports, ESPN. 
Спорт
The main problem was the ARMCO barriers
Of course
Yep, the fact that they were poorly installed.
Well, as we saw in F2 a couple of years ago at Spa, a 90-degree hit at 150 mph is a tough thing to engineer around.
Agreed. Destroyed the track, which has plenty of space for gravel runoffs.
Cevert was cut in half.
The problem was that the barriers were built for nascar and transam. They were too tall for formula cars.
Helmut was decapitated clean. Literally hands still on the steering wheel.
My dad was in the garages at The Glen right after Cevert was killed and heard Jackie Stewart announce to team Tyrell that he was retiring. He was probably one of the first people to know outside of the team.
the way this man says "Imola" will haunt me forever
You'll live.
Eye-mohla.
Fun fact: you can still drive the Watkins Glen street course to this day
Nascar races there and indy did til 2017 and scca is there every weekend its not uncommon knowledge its as well known as Virginia International and Road America
@@precesionnoreaster1507 That's not the Watkins Glen street course, that's Watkins Glen International.
@@precesionnoreaster1507 ruclips.net/video/kKXLOWgPtpQ/видео.html he is talking about this one
That was the craziest street course ever conceived post-World War II. There are some corners so mental there that you really do get a taste how crazy racing was back in the 50s.
Yes, you can drive the original Watkins Glen street course if you can find it. I have.
Worth pointing out, at that time IIRC the start finish line was where pit out is now, past the Ninety (or Turn 1), so the Esses were the irst set of turns. I forget when, exactly, the start/inish and pits were move to where they are now before the Ninety
1971 was the first race for that layout
The circuit was remodeled in time for the 1971 USGP and is exactly the same as it is today with the start finish line in front of pit in. 1970 was the last year the start/finish line was at the bottom the the esses.
One of the most beautiful American tracks out there
My father lived about 40 miles from Watkins Glen and saw the first original street races there. My parents also saw a mid-1970's F-1 race there.
I believe fatality of 1 and injuries of several other spectators in 1952 led to the end of the public road races there and along with other deadly crashes elsewhere in the USA, of shifting to purpose built or races not on public roads. General Curtis LeMay, a sports car and racing enthusiast, used Air Force bases for some races bringing attention to the USAF and with the rental and other fees used for solders based at them for better entertainment and social facilities. He also helped the growth of the SCAA.
There has been at least 1 NASCAR racing fatality there, J.D. McDuffie in 1991.
The JD McDuffie accident is sad as it was caused by the left front tire coming off the car at the end of the straightaway heading into a right hand turn. The car had just pitted, and I remember Benny Parsons stating on the broadcast lamenting that a son of JD was the tire changer on that side of the car. Always made me wonder/worry as to how that family and young man got past that...
Revson was killed in Kyalami
I've seen both the aftermath photo of Cervert's crash and Koonig. With the latter's helmet laying in the center of the track. The driver's face was clearly visible.
I just want to point that before 1981 the competition was called the World Championship of Drivers, technically not strictly an "F1 season". That's why various types of cars were used throughout the years, also allowing the USAC regulations for Indy 500. A couple of 1950s champs were scored for the F2 races, or even an F1/F2 mixture later (e.g. the German GP in 1967).
And the Indy 500 was a round in the F1 championship.
@@DennisMerwood-xk8wp actually, 500-Mile Sweepstakes had a "double citizenship" - it was counted for the USAC Championship Car season and the World Championship of Drivers. The latter did not equal to "F1 season".
Cevert would have been the 74 World Champion had he lived. Still miss him.
Totally agree. Jackie Stewart knew he was going to be great.
But Tyrrell wasn't as good in 74 as in 73 and Mc Laren was good.
I doubt it.
A lot of people blame the guard rails themselves, but it is the improper installation that is the biggest problem. In the Cevert crash, the bolts sheared off and the rails ended up on the ground. At the end of the long fast straight, you ran off onto grass and then a rail against a bank. That blunt force trauma killed Mcduffie. The rails between 1&2 are set up like pinball rails sending stock cars from side to side. Rails at the wrong angle or not needed at all. WG dumped a lot of money into materials, but they were installed with no thought at all.
Improper installed guardrails also contributed to the tragic crash of Rolf Stommelen at Montjuïc Barcelona.
Stewart had the WDC and Constructors locked up by Watkins Glen in 1973. Their withdrawal in honor of Cevert did not "hand the Championship over to Lotus." No matter what the circumstances, no F1 team would ever cede a Championship. Additionally, Revson was killed in Kylami. I was at the Glen that year and I am certain about this.
I think Watkins Glen should get a big renovation. Bring it up to F1 safety standards, maybe change some corners too, or add new corners entirely. Maybe there could be 3 different layouts too, one for NASCAR, Indycar, and F1. It would be a good experiment in my honest opinion.
you forgot sportscars race there to
If F1 has to race at a circuit it ruins it F1 races at no good tracks because a grade one circuit has to be terrible
@@johnanderson6401 good point!
Personally I'd prefer they leave Watkins Glen alone. Grade 2 circuits have a lot more character than most Grade 1 circuits, the only exception being F1 circuits that the FIA pretends meet that standard but don't (like Spa).
Let F1 race at COTA, it's already a boring F1 circuit.
They have 2 configurations already. One for Nascar and last time Indycar went there they had this section of track called the "boot". It's a section of track shaped like a boot but Nascar doesn't use it.
*takes a moment* Wait. F1 was in talks to race at Daytona in 1961? It makes me wonder which layout they would have used. At that point they only had one layout that didn't use either of the banked turns, but it was only 1.6 miles (2.6km).
Oh and did anyone else see how he was talking about Phil Hill and then Graham Hill in the same sentence as if they were the same guy???
Correction - Stewart won the world championship in 1973 the year Cevert died. He had it wrapped up and was asked to let Cevert win, if possible, by Tyrrell.
I think he referred to the constructor’s championship, Tyrrell losing to Lotus as a result of pulling out of the race at the Glen.
GOD BLESS all the men who have given it all to the sport of auto racing. Earnest Hemingway once said " There are only three sports. Bull Fighting, Mountain Climbing, and Auto Racing. The rest are games."
What about caving!?
@@leechjim8023 I think its more of a hobby than a sport cuz you can't "time" caving
As a side note: Arnco barriers are a menace and should be replaced everywhere
They work better for things with fenders which is what primarily races at Watkins glen
@connorbingel7134 maybe, but lots of those barriers have hurt people driving cars with fenders
@@davidbutcher1105 Well Davy trust me when I tell you if you hit things while racing the chances are your going to get hurt . There's no reset button like on your video games you play . If you're afraid of getting hurt stay on the porch with the puppies.
@@todd3285 well I race cars and have gotten hurt. Thise barriers make a situation they were supposed to help worse. Your argument has no point and is just meant as an insult. So fuck you too buddy.
In rallying, there were instances of guard rails going inside the cars. Robert Kubica or Garreth Roberts being 2 examples. Ever since Grosjean's crash, i always disliked the combination of guard rail and open wheel car. I think tracks should adopt something like the safer barriers if this ever becomes a consistent problem.
Excellent video as always, aside from the absolute mis-pronunciation of Imola. An American thing apparently not to bother.
5:22 this photo ist taken from the movie "Rush".
Formula one doesn't race at Watkins Glen anymore because of costs and the track's speed. Watkins Glen is in F1's history books and that is where it will stay.
There were multiple problems with formula one at the Glen. First, the Armco barriers were poorly installed, making it easy to blast through- or submarine under- them. Add that to the fact that, while not the longest road course in the world, it IS one of the fastest. The speeds carried there even today with the changes over the years are crazy for such a short road course. It’s still somewhat of a dangerous circuit nowadays.
Did you race there ??
@@todd3285 Does it matter? Drivers and fans over the years have all said it's a dangerous track.
@@digitalcamaro9708 Go away you have no idea what you're talking about ..
@@todd3285 🤓
@@todd3285 as if you know any better, who are you? Tony stewart?
The full version of Watkins glen neither nascar has the guts to run it. Love those banked left and right turns.
Jackie. F1's best driver ever.
AKA The Blue Tube by many drivers!
In reality, the grotesque and horrific deaths of Francois Cevert and Helmut Koenigg are not why Formula 1 removed Watkins Glen from the calendar. It was the inadequate hotel accomodations and the limited access to the track for the growing F1 audience that made F1 remove the Glen from the calendar. Follow the money!!
Those were all real problems.
My home track,
Me too . I raced SCCA there back in the late 70's . Raced at Lime Rock Park too !!
perchè hai usato l immagine del film rush nell incidente di koinigg ? guarda che ci sono diverse foto sull incidente di koinigg potevi usare quelle era meglio a livello di reportage !
:25 so F1 doesn't have a problem with converting the sport into a circus. Brilliant.
You certainly can't blame Graham Hill's crash on the track; that could have happened anywhere. While any deaths are unacceptable, two deaths in 20 years of racing was really no worse then F1's other tracks in the same period. (Consider that at Spa, two drivers were once killed in the same race!) And the race at the Glen did not go away after 1980 because of safety; it was entirely due to the financial problems. An updated Glen circuit would be nice to have, but it would probably cost too much to bring it up to the latest safety standards.
which race at Spa killed 2 people?
@@taurus6392 In 1960 both Chris Bristow and Alan Stacey were both killed during the race.
Piers Courage and Roger Williamson both died at Zandvoort in the early 70s and that track was recently reintroduced to the calendar after upgrades.
I’ve raced F2000 and still do track days there in street cars without harnesses, hands down my favorite track.
Knock knock.
I raced there back in the late 70's SCCA. I loved it . Lime Rock Park was the other track spent some time at . That track is about 1.8 if I remember correctly .
@@todd3285 LRP and WG go hand in hand for ppl in the NE but to be honest I’m not a big fan of LRP. Being on Long Island I wish we still had Bridge Hampton; Thunderbolt and Pocono blow, VIR is awesome but so damn far.
What did you race in the 70s? Hopefully you don’t mind me asking but how old are you? I’m 44.
@@todd3285 yeah LRP is a about a 1 minute lap in a fast street car or race Miata.
@@mach5zx10r That my be true for top shelf drivers and cars BUT sharing the track with 25' other club racers it's a little slower than that . Believe it or not one day I was sitting with Paul Newman and a pro European driver who told us that there is a saying in the racing world about LRP .
" IF YOU CAN RACE AT LIIME ROCK YOU CAN RACE ANYWHERE !!"
@@todd3285 lol, I’ve been there with him too.
that story for me delivered informations that led me to think that Cevert was Stewart's wife lover. they were running an open trio. it was largely done in the old days. she was so devastated by the news that she said she wouldn't come to any race from now on. and shortly after Stewart said he was retiring after the race because he always had his wife with him and he wanted not to continue without his best friend and his wife by his side. it was a double sentence for Stewart.
Pulling out from WGI in 73 didn't hand the chip to lotus... Stewart already had it in the bag. Maybe you meant the race? Won by lotus
It doesn't look good when drivers' names are badly misspelled. It is "Cevert" and "Koinigg" which should have been easily noted in any newspaper articles about the crashes.
please, Cevert = Suhvair . a bit like Leclerc = Leclair not Luhclurk like too many people say. we actually don't pronounce the last letter. thanks 😉
That teammate was Wolfgang von Tripps
Don't really like the gigantic asphalt runoffs the Glen has today.
Rest Easy
You run A modern day F1 car under a Armco barrier at 190 mph, and the only thing that halo will get you is to heaven just as fast as the old days of F1. And here's to Bernie Elkelstiener 🖕your number one buddy....
Old F1 drivers were dare devils.
Thise cars were death traps .
Dude said “I mole la”
What a load of crap. A single lap at the Nurburgring would expose a driver of this time to twenty times the danger that a whole race would create at The Glen. Please tell us all which "safe" racetracks existed in this era. Or now, for that matter.
was that colour photo literally showing the decapitated Helmut?
5:34 you can actually visualize his torso sitting on that TS16 chassis, of course the helmet with his head still inside was located at the back of the car.
@@TherealLorinser it looks like he was still sitting in the car at the time of this picture but obviously nothing left of his head and just a bloody mess.
He just said Helmuth "cornig" 💀
Not a fan of neither guardrails nor dirt embankments
5:39 not a real one.. thisis from the movie..
2.36 is a pic of Jim Clark, not Graham Hill. This is basic stuff.
Holy horsefeathers!!! How could one be decapitated and not die instantly???
When the French guillotined people, it was said that the head lived for a few seconds after it was separated from the body, and the eyes would blink and the lips would move as if to try to scream.
Cevert was not just dead at the scene, he was decapitated by the Armco. It was gruesome. Armco is very much a great idea in theory and horrible in practice. The fact it is still used is a joke.
Cevert was not decapitated. In the accident photos you can clearly see him in the car still in helmet. I've assisted on researching a book on Cevert and was privy to the accident investigation.
@@martytc much of what I have read said it was that but I will stand corrected. One thing is for sure, the Armco was a factor in killing him
He was my favorite driver.
@@marklittle8805 He ran straight into the guardrail post which didn't give, and it sliced right through the centerline of the car.
@@martytc I've seen a picture of him from the woods side of the barrier and he looks split down the middle to his waist with one of his racing shoes off. Horrific image.
Why the guard rail had to have 2 layers?? the top one only duty was to kill drivers
This is incomplete at best. Firstly, the Armco barriers were mandated by the FIA in the first place to make the track, "safe". This is just one of the many examples where race promoters were required to implement "improvements" that were later deemed unacceptable by the same people that required them in the first place. While I firmly believe that all reasonable efforts should be made in the name of safety, saddling track owners and/or organizers with affording the "improvement du jour" makes no sense. (And yes, Jackie "Mr. Safety" Stewart, his own self was responsible for a lot of this nonsense back then.) As someone who drove the track in 1974 through 1977 in a Formula Ford, I was amazed at the condition of the track. Compare to Lime Rock or Loudon, for example, the paving was flawless and the safety features, as we understood them then were first rate. And it's safety record was, in my memory, certainly no worse than other major F1 venues. One comment... The Armco was all painted "baby blue" and, in a low slung formula car, it was about all you could see when you were on the circuit. For this reason, the track carried the nickname, The Blue Tube, among drivers. Last comment... In my humble opinion, Watkins Glen was taken off the calendar because it was "out in the sticks" and the beautiful people in "the circus" wanted bright lights and big cities near by. Like I said, just my opinion.
Low volume video...
It's "Monaco", not "Monoco".
Manocu*
Eye-mola? Seriously. Anyone copy or proof read anymore? -U10
More drivers in F1 Died in Europe than any American GP.
Totally all over the place. 1) F1 has a dark history with the USA -- they want our venues and money, but not our teams and drivers. Having said that, arguably, F1 only survived here because of the Glen. 2). The Glen, like other venues, have made dramatic strides since 1973. To blame them TODAY for those deaths THEN is a complete disservice. 3) Somewhere along the line you went all over the place on this video, like your ADHD meds wore off? The Glen is not responsible for deaths on other guardrail tracks (which I assume also upgraded?), for instance. While the Glen execs attend Indy (where I've met them), they are not responsible for Indy. And certainly they never prohibited a safety car with a doctor following the cars on Lap 1. WHAT YOU FORGOT: The burning bus, pushed into the swamp. The great wines in the region. The really great camping, which you will need due to a lack of hotels in the area. And of course, a list of all of the greats who somehow got past that "dark history" to run there.
Let me point out that The Glen, for a while, was one of only 2 FIA F1-certified tracks (Grade 1) in the USA (Indy was the other). They are now Grade 2 -- where they fall down is in their facilities for hotels, media center, etc etc. And of course NASCAR isn't likely to invest $25 -30 million per race for a sanctioning fee (and neither is the local government).
I'm raising the "Bullshit" flag.... The Glen has made so many improvements on safety the last few years there is no reason F1 can't race there. IMSA, Nascar and INDY car all race there with no issue. They were turning 1:29's on a 3.4 mile course last year. That's Damn quick.
The track has been overhauled four times increasing safety each time since the last Grand Prix of 1980. Huge runoff areas added. It just needs a few more tweaks to meet class one status. It’s currently FIA class two. Yes folks the FIA flies an inspector over here every few years to approve it. Do you really think they would let international sports cars run here every year if it wasn’t FIA approved? Every old track used in the fifties to the seventies around the world had safety issues. In 2023 the current crop of drivers are still pushing for safety at the new street courses and last year they overhauled Spa to make it safer. This video is outdated. Safety is a never ending pursuit. To make the Glen a class one they would need to add some run off areas to where the boot merged with the NASCAR track. That area is next to a campground and not a not of room until you get close to the backstretch. They could do it. But the tiny town can’t support the modern F1 circus. Not enough high class hotel space. They’d have to build a couple on the track site. That’s the big reason F1 won’t come back. Great track in the middle of nowhere. Even though Lewis Hamilton said after a few hot laps in 2010 that the track is beautiful fast, great to drive and they don’t make them like this anymore. Oh and I’d relocate that pit wall. That’s the one thing I’ll agree needs an update.
@@glenmallory9982 Like another person said, it is in the middle of nowhere. Access into the town and track and so infrastructure for anything that big.
Yea I’ve been saying the same thing for decades. Times moved on. Great place for racing any series that fits on a grade two track. I miss when they ran Karts on the long course. That was a good racing weekend . Although WKA barely made enough money to pay for the track rental. 75 screaming Karts on track at flag drop running just about 100mph on the long straight for the 100cc two stroke class. Fond memories!
Oh and I’d be remiss if I didn’t thank NASCAR for saving the track from certain closure in the 1980s. It’s voted a NASCAR favorite by the fans often.
call bullshit all you want... you are still wrong. and anyone who has a clue, knows the Glen is nowhere near F1-ready.
Your video is confusing. you should title it “the use of Armco barriers”. This video jumps all over the place and shows a bunch of other tracks and accidents not at all related to Watkins Glen. Choose the proper title next time and stick to the subject matter the title implies. Cheers
Not factually true
As long as the FIA & F-1 doesn't allow American drivers, nobody in America should watch the races in America...imo
Google Logan Sargeant - he'll be on the grid this year. I assume you'll be watching then?
the hell are on you about?
@@MidgetRacer8192 are you not aware of what it takes to get an FIA Super License just to have the opportunity to compete in an F-1 race?...lol
Money or lack of it killed the Glen, please stop making videos based on bad information
F1 finally left Watkins Glen when the crowds were not big enough to pay the bills.
The same thing has happened with EVERY F1 event tried in the US since 1950!
They all flop.
It's not going to change. Americans do not the attention span for F1. COTA may last a few more years. But history has not been kind to F1 promotions in the US.
And Andretti is not going to change that.
Like soccer, F1 has never had a following in the US.
F1 left the Glen because they didn't get back payment. The track fell on hard times because they borrowed twice as much as they could pay back when the renovated the course in 71, getting choked by the interest and payments.. Easily researchable if you watch the Cameron Argetsinger clip from the PBS Watkins Glen documentary.
BULLSHIT !! Where you there ?? I was there from 1973 to 1980 . They always had a great crowd !!
@@todd3285 Then why did they stop?
@@DennisMerwood-xk8wp Well it wasn't because of the attendance of the fans . Ok Little Denny . At least not for F-1 .
@@todd3285 I very much doubt you can prove that to me Todd.