We need to discuss Babel by RF Kuang.
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- Опубликовано: 13 ноя 2022
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I think it's funny that there's this active resistance to the idea that the Bible was mistranslated because it DEFINITELY was, both on accident and on purpose to fit the agenda of the translator.
I got my undergrad degree in Latin and this review made me add a bunch of books to my TBR
The Bible is basically like those videos of a song or a recipe put through Google Translate a bunch of times and back into English.
Not just translated/mistranslated, but localised. There's a great book, The Social Universe of the English Bible, that goes into the way the King James bible was Anglicanised and rendered in terms familiar to a 17th century English person, putting it into a whole different context as a result. Easier to see yourself as god's chosen when the book you believe to be god's word reflects your world and not the world of another.
(Also, not that I'm the man's biggest fan, but I will always be amused by how the text that so many quote to justify their homophobia bears the name of a king who was very much Not Straight.)
My family believes the King James Version is the true literal word. Even as a kid I was like… how would it be 100% translated correctly from another language/time?! No one ever corrupted it?!
I guess that’s part of why I left the church lol
s/o to the Johannine Comma! Not quite a mistranslation but definitely proof the Bible in all its forms is not infallible
@@kenziewrenreads3157 yes I agree. I used to attend a church that only read KJV. Now that it’s been 3 years since I left that church, I have begun my own journey to find the truth. I came across Detective J. Warner Wallace who used to be a skeptic and used his homicidal detective skills to “debunk” Christianity. He goes into and explains his research on translation which is amazing 😊 if you’re interested, let me know your thoughts. I’d love to learn more about this.
Babel is the first dark academia book I’ve read, and I know I spoiled myself doing that. I don’t think other dark academia books will reach the same level as Babel.
Have you read The Secret History yet?
Try the secret history :)
@@ava5959 ooh haven’t read it!
The level of bad? Lol
When I was younger, history was my least favorite class. To me, it was “boring” and “just names and numbers” that I had to memorize, which was difficult for someone with ADHD to do. But BORING? How could the horrors of history ever be seen that way? And you’re right. It’s totally in how it’s taught to us.
Of course people are saying it's "racist" towards white people 🥴I think you're pretty spot-on predicting it could be challenged or banned in schools to prevent kids from reading it. I worry about public education and what kids will be taught, especially when I see political candidates in my state campaigning against the "wokeness" in schools. Glad you got a lot from Babel, and appreciate the additional recommendations you gave!
Meanwhile Hunger Games was placed in some curriculums 🤨 we know why
Hell my English teacher gave is Divergent to read in our catholic school.
Oooooooo conservatives don't like this book? Even more resdon to get it! I've read the poppy war trilogy and i loved it!
If you've read some of the books in elementary school libraries I think you would not find them appropriate for young readers. Bable is dark but I believe it is fine. The books they are trying to ban in schools are basically pornographic novels. But I'm also someone who thinks the only flags that should be at schools are the American flag and state flags not rainbow flags. Pushing sexuality on children is disgusting and should be strongly discouraged. I will protect my kids innocence with all my power.
@@chrisn1208 It's not bad. Not as good as the poppy War trilogy though.
@@user-ek7qt7dm3t No one is pushing sexuality on kids.
And what kid would even try and read Babel? They would see it as boring. If I was a kid I would think it's boring too. No I would read books with colors. Mainly for rainbows since rainbows are pretty. Oh I forgot. Rainbows are bad in your mind. It's all about "the amarican flag." you speak about freedom and yet you hate freedom. I'm very glad I stay in South Africa. So many disserve people here. Better healthcare too. Don't have to pay for it.
You are taking this way out of proportion.
News flash also. Kids have crushes with each other. Even of the same sex. It's not sexual or romantic. It's mostly plotonic because kids are innocent and don't have any sexual desire. Teaching kids only about straight couples will make them question about same sex couples. It's best to teach them that different people exist. People with different skin colors, race and that some kids has two mommy's or two daddy's.
They will grow up not being close minded as you.
All of RF Kuang's books, if you have even the slightest knowledge of the history behind it, are a gut punch in the best way. The minute I picked up The Poppy War and saw that the dedication was "To Iris" (Iris Chang) I knew it was going to be the rawest book I'd ever read before. I might have had family stationed in Manchuria, known as "Manchukuo" to Japanese occupiers. I say this with the sort of shame and trepidation a German citizen might have when admitting their family might have been high ranking Wehrmacht. I knew exactly what kind of horrors I would find and I am so grateful to the gravity and respect her books always have to the human suffering behind every historical inspiration. I'm super out of the loop and didn't even know she had a new release out, I'll have to pick this up.
Why, who is Iris Chang? :0
@@sophia-luciakwon2792 She was a journalist who documented survivor accounts in The Rape of Nanking.
@@sophia-luciakwon2792 You have heard about google, right?
@@sophia-luciakwon2792iris chang is the author of the book, the r@pe of nanking. she had spent three years researching and interviewing survivors from that event and was horrified at the atrocities that japan had committed. she fell into a deep depression both from the information she had learned and the japanese people harassing her for her book. she also had an event advocating for japan to apologise for the massacre and unfortunately died by her own hand in 2004, quite a few years before the poppy war was released.
Excellent summary ! Thank you so much for informing me of this tid bit of history that i haven’t gotten around to yet @@keefesrighthand
Before I picked Babel up I told one of my friends “if I don’t like this book it won’t be because it’s a bad book, it’s just not for me”. Because RF Kuang is an incredible author. After reading the book I had to sit without reading anything for a day, because I couldn’t stop thinking about how important it is.
Listening to you talk about it I hadn’t thought about how my religious Christian up bringing (thankfully I was moved out of that school environment which exposed to me more ‘honest’ history and science), made me resonate with the students of Babel and their indoctrination.
Babel is a book that I feel like everyone should read (and I’d encourage people to read it with at least one other person to discuss it!) because of the conversations it has, the dialogue it opens for discussion. This is so much more than a fiction book, so much more important than I feel a lot of people realize.
Random book + Christian school anecdote: it was "strongly suggested" I not return to my private religious school after my 6th grade year because I read "Watership Down" and convinced the 5th and 6th classes (we were combined) to take rabbit names and pretend to be rabbits. I was, of course, Hazel-rah.
The fact that this was concerning to them, kids pretending to be bunnies, is just sad to me.
If the "Teaching Rachel History" lessons are ever compiled into a book, I would absolutely buy multiple copies. Even in non-fundy schooling they like to skip parts that make people uncomfortable or don't mesh with the local political landscape.
I just want to take a moment and acknowledge what a beautiful act of love it is for your friends to help you heal your educational neglect without judgement but with enthusiasm and seeing the opportunity for your growth. That is love. Not whatever the church teaches.
I know exactly what you're going through. I spent half of my education in Christian schools with varying degrees of educational neglect. The one that I went to in Canada had to follow provincial standards (but there were still many, many issues), but the ones I went to in the US were vastly subpar. I still struggle with basic mathematical principles such as percentages because I was never taught properly. One of the schools I went to was attached to a church and a "teacher" didn't even have a teaching degree/license. I completely sympathesize, I've also feel like I'm constantly playing catch up. I admire your tenacity and fight to get the education your deserved, that we all deserve. Thank you for this review. I'm going to have to pick this book up again after putting it down briefly.
Former fundie kid here! I no longer identify as evangelical at all, and I agree that my Beka book based education was significantly lacking. As an adult (43 for 2 more days, lol), I have been trying to learn about history as it really happened. I will say, that most of my friends who attended secular public schools however, also received really poor history education. I think it might just be a universal American thing. Earlier this year my book club read Lies My Teacher Told Me which was very enlightening.
I was homeschooled till 5th grade with the fundie curriculums, then in 5th grade when my parents got divorced (go Mom, best thing that ever happened for us lol) I went to public school in a wealthy area, and got a pretty great education. Granted, it was the south so there were still issues lol.
But I totally agree with you, my history education was so lacking. Everything I learned about race, class, and more came from me seeking it out and having it available at university
Hi Coreen, I went to public school also but was raised Christian. I think I have a lot of learning to do so I can educate myself more on real history. Thank you so much for recommending that book. Adding it to my TBR. Who is the author?? I want to make sure I read the right one 😊
@@stephaniamachado4304 it’s by James W. Loewen.
@@CoreenMontagna thank you so much :)
happy birthday 🎉
For BIPOC (myself and the ones I gifted this book too or spoke to about this book) we bonded over the grief this book brought in us. Especially those of us who have lived experiences with colonialism and oppression. We may know all of this, but I think for many of us, we try so hard to suppress the feelings that come with our experiences of racism and oppression that come with living, studying and working in white institutions, otherwise, it'll be very difficult to function. Anyway, I did;t ask for this therapy session, and I've been sobbing for two days.
This was cool to listen to, while also being a frightening glimpse into a world I could have been consigned to, if certain family members were then how they are now. Thanks for sharing, so proud of you for taking charge and getting informed!
as a jewish person with a pretty small extended family thanks to the holocaust it always gauls the daylights out of me to that people are taught to think of the US as the savors of the jewish people who did all these good things for us during WWII. Did the US use force to stop the holocaust and liberate the camps? Yes, /eventually/ but it's FAR more complicated than that. Not only did the US wait through several years of genocide before finally getting involved but the US didn't actually like the jews much more than the Nazis did and were actually complicit in their crimes and in global anti-semitism. Multiple ships of jewish people escaped form Europe and went through hell to get to the US seeking sanctuary and what did the US do? They sent them back. They sent jews back to die in the camps. The US had ZERO interest in taking in jewish refugees and spent that whole time continuing to oppress and discriminate against those jews already in country. The liberation of the camps was not the goal of the US's entry into WWII, merely a side effect yet our education system loves to spin it as the US were the protectors of the jews and that US became a sanctuary for us, something that it very much was not, and, I can vouch for, is not today. I know this comment only speaks to a small portion of this video but since you did mention the propaganda around the US and WWII I thought it important expand on especially since much of this misinformation about country's historic relationship with the jewish people is what has lead to the modern and dangerous belief that jews in America do not experience discrimination or oppression, which again, I can sadly vouch for being utterly untrue.
Yes! This is such an important point and it’s something that has truly baffled me too
Thanks for sharing this. The USA is a mixture of empire and enlightenment. It has perhaps to do with its democratic nature. We're now at a crossroads where we need to envision a better global order, that is truly free of racism.
As a translator, I’m having a hella good time. (Only 40% in so far) It takes me back to grad school learning translation theory, as well as expanding on topics I didn’t learn. It’s pretty dense, so I was surprised non-translators liked this book!
As a translation student I must admit that I loved this book because of this topics as well!
(Conversely, as someone with some background in philosophy of language I despised it. It has no clue what it's talking about in some areas, the issue of "math being different in different languages", for instance. Kuang is making a *_substantially_* stronger claim than she's giving evidence for.)
@@najawin8348 Did you even read the authors note??
@@someweeb4110 The authors note in which Kuang insists that she can say whatever she wants in a work of historical fiction because it's fiction, after explicitly noting that some of her portrayal of Oxford is simply written in a way to mirror her own experience? Yes, I did read that. Unfortunately, it doesn't solve the issue I referenced.
Firstly, the issue at hand is not one of historical accuracy, so saying that it's historical fiction with the emphasis on the fiction rather than the historical doesn't resolve the issue - it's an issue of accuracy in the _philosophy of mathematics_ and _philosophy of language_ which are different different fields altogether. One could theoretically say that Kuang is just lying about all of her translations in the book, the entire thing is just a work of fiction from top to bottom, including the etymology chasing that she does, and this would, I guess, be sufficient to resolve these complaints - that the world in which they inhabit has entirely fictional grammars. But this is clearly not Kuang's intent, since the etymology chasing she does is actually correct! She very clearly intends for the grammars referenced in Babel to be the same ones as in our real world, and statements about these grammars to inform and educate people.
Secondly, this is not how Kuang uses the footnotes. The footnotes are often effectively in Kuang's own voice, attempting to impress upon the reader "facts" about the world, either the world in the narrative or the world as we inhabit it. Indeed, the footnote in question begins: "This is true. Mathematics is not divorced from culture."
Let's be clear. The statement was false. While the _practice_ of mathematics is not divorced from culture, mathematics itself is. Conflating the two is a mistake that is beaten out of you in your first philosophy of math course. Kuang isn't merely writing a fictional world, she's writing a fictional world, refusing to do proper research into what might make it realistic or how to perhaps resolve inconsistencies - using the excuse of fiction to explain them away, and then using a _different authorial voice_ to state incorrect things ostensibly about the world we live in through reflection on the text.
The book is polemical, and parts of it are accurate. But parts of it that _portray themselves as accurate_ are not accurate, and it's all too easy to just say "lmao, it's fiction my guy", when it's very clear that Kuang's intent is to impress upon people specific points of view that may or may not be supported in the literature.
I know nothing about translation but that was my favorite part of the book. I thought the whole magic system was the most beautiful I’ve ever come across.
I have to say that as you were listing off things you didn’t learn about Lincoln I realized that I have never been taught any of those thing, even in secular education. And my civil war education was pretty terrible too. US schools really fail at certain topics.
I really admire you learning more as an adult
This video made me realize that I somehow conflated Ninth House and Six of Crows
Big oops.
Same 💀
"Racist towards white people" reviews always make me want to go absolutely feral. I'm not fundie, but I was raised REAL Catholic, and my high school...... well, let's just say that their colors are "scarlet, black and white" and when we sang the alma mater we were supposed to hold our hands out flat, palm down, at arm's length ("What? We're just pointing at the alma mater lyrics mural up on the wall! It's completely innocent!"). And that now, ten-ish years later, my friends who still live in that hellhole are posting videos of nazi rallies marching down the streets I used to walk home on.
I was fortunate enough to be loud and wrong on the internet at JUST the right time when I was a kid, and several people very kindly took time out of their day to talk me down from my nonsense, causing me and my autism to go down the history rabbit hole.
My family, who is still STAUNCHLY Catholic, is very careful not to bring up ANY historical or social issues around me, because I will not stop yelling about it for at least an hour and Thanksgiving will be ruined AGAIN. 😂
hahahaha 👍😘
I'm glad you're not letting anyone drive a wedge between yourself and your family, even as you strongly disagree on some topics. Cults also try to separate us from family.
Don't forget, everything is ideology: Conservatism, Wokism, CRT, veganism, environmentalism, capitalism, socialism, Feminism, religions and atheism too. Everything.
Take on and investigate ideas one at a time. Don't feel you have to choose, or resist, any single ideology in its entirety. Pick and choose what you believe of them and what you find useful- toss the rest.
Cheers
@@laurasalo6160 This reply is worded to be incredibly warm and friendly, but it's simultaneously real sus lmao?? I feel like I just got HR Tactic™-Ed.
white ppl shitting on Babel, gives me the vibe of them denying BIPOC's daily experiences of racism.
One day I hope to be as fearless as this description of Thanksgiving. Well you be my spirit animal?
I really appreciate you talking about your education because i feel like online its so stigmatized and people just do not get it. like yes, it is our responsibility to educate ourselves as adults but also we grew up without the baseline others had. i'm from texas, and when i visited california it was such a culture shock, and i consider myself a HUGE leftist, but people would get onto me about all these little things that i straight up... was never taught and it is a really difficult thing to deal with. again, im not excusing my lack of knowledge but i feel that there should be more empathy for those who don't have the same educational background as others. it was a coin flip whether my teachers called native americans indians or natives, the state's rights narrative for civil war was HAMMERED into us, and the idea of 'some slave owners were nice!' and shit like that.
It's difficult to ask oppressed people to have sympathy for the ignorance of their oppressors but it is the antidote to hatred, in my opinion. Like, I totally get it logically but emotionally people have these reactions to people who think these things because historically people who think these things are a threat to their survival. Like, it's how these systems continue to thrive despite nobody actually being happy under this system. Republicans are asking for us to move on because they're not happy with cancel culture narrative. They're realizing they've shot themselves in the foot and have nobody to turn to but they can't just admit that you know? It's like fucked up but it's how we stay oppressed. The hurt and anger on one side makes us act defensively and the ignorance on the other also makes us act defensively and the two collide while the real problem, capitalism, goes on living their best life.
@@ChocolatexCherries3 I don't know, racism kind of is a product of capitalism, but I don't think we can just jump the fence and start there. Because then it gets into the whole "if I have white privilege why am I poor" argument. It's not the whole story. Even if racism exists to further divide people I think we still need to understand the history of it so we don't keep making the same mistakes. Idk if that makes sense lol. Like we're all poor but we don't all have the same opportunities to stop being poor and even if racism is an extra obstacle thrown in our path it's not something we can side step. We can't move forward without understanding how we got to where we are to begin with.
@@boots1622fan I think that that we definitely have to start there. I think not starting there is where the "if I have white privilege why am I poor" argument comes from in the first place. In fact, being ignorant on how racism and capitalism are intertwined is exactly how fascist regimes take hold to begin with. Like, if you don't know that the majority of nazis supporters in the beginning were small business owners, then of course you won't see how voting republican leads to racism and genocide. If you're not how poor white people get pitted against everyone else, of course you're going to grow up racist. That's the tool capitalism uses to make you obedient to licking its boot.
ive just finished babel and i really like this question "who was this book written for?". i also gave it the maximum rating and i personally think that this book was written for me because i love linguistics. i have a masters in linguistics so babel's magic system was such a delight to read about. ive finished uni few years ago and it reagnited my passion for languages tbh.
it was also written for me because i didnt know a lot about this moment of history in the grand scale. im not from an english speaking country, and during 19th century we had a lot of stuff going on here. our curriculum focuses mostly on our local history, global history isnt really talked about in depth. Babel was really good and really accessible history lesson, especially considering the fact that it wasnt told from a white perspective
I've just finished this, it absolutely destroyed me emotionally. It was such a powerful exploration of translation and the history of language and POC within an Imperial Empire. It was honestly for me, very similar to a book like The Handmaid's Tale, in that it was very believable speculative fiction. Different themes and content, but the same intention, for me at least.
A friend directed me to this. Thanks for the shoutout re: my book Wake. I’m glad it resonated with you. And I just ordered Babel on your recommendation.
Longtime channel lurker here - thank you for adding another layer to the discussion around this book! I honestly think I'm going to be thinking about Babel years. I'm a history major with a focus in 19th century british imperialism and "who this book is for" is something that's been stuck in my mind for months. I've seen quite a few people talk about how Babel is the kind of book that's preaching to the choir i.e. no one who doesn't agree with its messaging isn't going to pick it up/finish it, but the thing is, I think that's kind of the point. It's less about convincing people of the historical and social truths it explores and more about getting privileged academics and would-be activists who already know these things to think about just how far they're willing to go to fix it, and then to DO THAT.
For anyone so inclined, I also have some recommendations of books that pair nicely with Babel:
- Inglorious Empire by Shashi Tharoor (nonfiction)
- Insurgent Empire by Priyamvada Gopal (nonfiction)
- Legacy of Violence by Caroline Elkins (nonfiction)
- Impossible Purities by Jennifer DeVere Brody (nonfiction)
- The Bones of Ruin by Sarah Raughley (YA fantasy)
- Lote by Shola von Reinhold (lit fic)
Adding all of these to my tbr. Thank you so much
I enjoyed the book with too many "aha moments" since I related to Robin etc. The etymology discussed is amazing!
I love the "I can love it for both of us" comment! I loved it and referred it to our school library for further discussion by the senior kids. Thank you for this video!
I work as a postdoctoral science education researcher, so I went through grad school and I'm unfortunately deeply rooted in academia in my work and from my long education, and Babel is maybe my favorite book of all time. It captured so many things so well for me about things I've seen, experienced, and critiqued in academia. I totally understand that it didn't land the same for lots of folks, but I loved it for those reasons! I really related to stuff you said about the book landing for you because of your education and upbringing.
I learned about the US putting Japanese citizens in interment camps during WWII from a historical fiction novel. I wish I could remember the name of it. I was never taught about the camps in school but did get that book from our school library. My young self could not believe that my classmates had never heard of them either since it’s kind of a huge historical event!
Omg I think I know the book your talking about! 'Baseball saved us' I think it might be the one you read??
Could also be Weedflower by Cynthia Kadohata?
This is so late, but what about Journey to Topaz?
Farewell to Manzanar?
Only halfway through the video, but I wanted to recommend crash course here on youtube - they have a bunch of history series, including one that's running now about black history, and all of them are incredible!
Thank you so much!
Whoa😳 the fundie curriculum you learned sounds incredibly similar to the public education curriculum I was taught in Texas 🤬
just finished this book and while i agree with critiques citing flat characterization and repetitive writing, i still plan to recommend it as often as i am able, seeing as it sometimes feels like a how-to manual for resisting imperialism presented through the format of low fantasy/historical fiction (and full of really lovely insights into how language works)
also hoping this book is one of the final nails in dark academia as a genre's coffin
Thank you for being so vulnerable and raw in this video. I always appreciate your breakdowns of novels and this one hit so hard, especially hearing your personal anecdotes.
Thank you so much!
This might be my favourite video of yours, and Babel was already on my “To-Read” list but now it has just rocketed right to the top. Thanks for sharing your thoughts, and being so vulnerable with the personal stuff you shared, too.
Babel was my first dark academia and I loved every second of it. I felt validated in many of the things I feel deep in my from all the things that I have seen and experienced in my life and though I am not as well read in non-fiction (working on that one) this book's impact on me was profound and I couldn't get it out of my mind and I honestly still can't.
For the record, I think you are very smart/intelligent. You were undereducated and forced into ignorance, but you are working hard to correct that, and you have such wonderful analysis and critical thinking abilities. I love watching your videos; I've added so many books to my TBR based on your reviews and recommendations (including this one, now).
Thank you for caring enough to search for the truth. Whom ever you were you’ve transformed yourself into hope. Subscribed!
I’m a stranger but I’m so proud of you for getting the education you were cheated out of. It’s not easy but it’s so crucial, especially when it means standing up to racism & fascism at the individual level
I'm so glad I saw this. You've sold me on Babel. I'll be choosing it as an add-on next month for BOTM!!❤️
I really loved your thoughts on this, I feel pretty much exactly the same as you. and thanks for the new reading recs!
I've watched a couple of reviews on this now, but yours is the first that made me want to actually pick it up. I had a similar education going to a christian school/homeschooling, so a lot of what you said resonated with me. If only I had friends willing to make me education power points lol
You opening up about how you grew up is so appreciated, hope everyday you can learn something that were hidden from you!❤
Your experience really makes me think about my own christian education. I'm Scottish, and I went to a rural catholic primary school before the current national curriculum was introduced and forced religious schools to step up their game, at least a little. When I moved up to a secular secondary school, I realised that even though I was far ahead of my peers in things like maths and English, I knew almost nothing about how the world actually worked - same sex marriage had been legalised just a few months earlier, in my final term of primary school, and I had heard absolutely nothing about this huge national development - I didn't even know gay people actually existed, I thought it was just an insult! I barely even knew that my country was having a referendum on independence. Sometimes I blame myself for not looking at newspapers or seeing adverts about things, but you really summed it up well - if a community doesn't want their children to know something, they will find a way to keep them stupid. I spent the first two years of secondary school completely missing jokes and references and just feeling so socially dumb, and it really stunted my personal growth and affected my relationships (partially because kids are mean lol). While my experience wasn't as extreme as yours, we share a frustration with the people who let this happen to us.
I had a lovely experience in my extended philosophy classes in high school, where we translated the book of genesis word by word from Hebrew. It was really eye opening and quite surprising.
Because most of the Bible was written in with Greek, Hebrew or Aramaic, all which are known to use either incredibly specific or very broad definitions for their words, even the most honest translation of the Bible is practically guaranteed to be wrong in some way.
That’s where the whole “men shall not lie with other men” confusion originated from, since the “other men” word means young men, something along the lines of the modern “teenager”. A line demonizing pedophilia, not homosexuality.
And I know this is a huge dedication, but I encourage anyone interested to pick a book or chapter of the Bible and try to translate it this way. The shit you can find is honestly so interesting and poetic..
@maame the Greek model for homosexuality - an older man with a young boy. Very explicitly said.
@maame please do not cite King James as your ‘proof’ here because that itself invalidates the argument. As my original comment stated, the translations are mostly botched and don’t convey the original meaning; ESPECIALLY King James is full of inaccuracies.
@maame also I clicked your icon and it showed me your other comments, proving its not a worthwhile discussion. I’m not going to put a ton of effort in to educate someone who clearly will not listen. Have a wonderful day.
@maame it shows your other comment hun
@maame sir/ma’am WHAT ELSE AM I SUPPOSED TO JUDGE YOU FROM, ITS LITERALLY YOUR OWN WORDS. You said that. I’m judging you from your opinions
What a very considered review from a fascinating reader. Thank you so much!
It's really weird to me that the school I went to in the 90s/early 2000s was more progressive than schools in that area are now. We learned about the Trail of Tears and Jim Crow laws. Heck, we even went on field trips to places like the Genoa Boarding School. This was in a very fundie part of the US.
I've been curious about this book, given the messaging in the poppy war, and now I really have to read it
As a person who loved Babel I ended up really enjoying this video. I definitely will read those 2 other books now. You earned yourself a new subscriber 💙
Glad to have you!
I’m always amazed at how far you’ve come in spite of what organized religion did to you… same boat so I get it! You, my lady, are far from stupid. I’ve been debating on whether or not I wanted to read Babel, I DEFINITELY want to read it now! Thank you for this review and thank you for the other suggestions! As always, much love to you, sis❤
You’re the best, Angela. Thank you 💕
Great review, that really helped me solidify my thoughts on Babel. I'm finding it really interesting to hear about why people connect, or not, with this book and on what level, because for me, this book is all about making connections - connections between words, connections with history and origins. For me, the reason I connected with this book is because I am an archivist, and it really made me understand that the essence of my work as an archivist is an act of translation, who gets to decide what is kept in an archive, and who described those things have a huge impact on what is left for future generations, and who out of those future generations will get to connect with it, we archivists are taking objects or material from current or past communities and deciding which are important and what they might mean. While there were elements of the plot and writing that I could be critical of, it left me with a new awareness of the wider importance of my job, and reinforced my awareness of politician's language choices when they currently talk about (dehumanise) refugees, activists, and just ordinary people who strike for fair pay and conditions.
Wow! Love how personal you got in this video. Thanks for opening your heart to us.
I loved hearing what you loved about this book and explaining how your background affected how the book resonated with you. Great video
I didn't expect to come here and get hit in the feels about my fundie upbringing. Everything you said is SO true and just dead on. Thank you for speaking about this -- it's so important for those who didn't get raised fundie to understand this. Fantastic review and can't wait to read this book!
I'm 53 and a lot, not all of my public schooling in a little country school in AR sounds very similar. It was after college history and socialogy class as an adult that really opened my eyes fully.
I feel similarly about The Starless Sea and Mexican Gothic. They are important >to me
I felt like commenting because I also deeply related to Babel because of my background, but in a totally different way as you.
I'm an acquired bilingual (or transplant, as I've seen some people define it), so my connection to Babel was through the lenses of language and translation, not history and knowledge.
I was born and raised in Italy, from a completely Italian family, my only exposure to english had been some not-so-great school classes, which means that I learned the language practically from scratch once I moved to America when I was 13 years old.
Being so young I picked up the language really quickly, and between speaking it in real life, and getting pretty deeply entangled in online bookish/reading spaces, soon the majority of my interactions with the world outside of my home were in English. This got 10x worst when I moved out for University and for five years of my life my daily phone calls with my mom became the only time I interacted with anyone in Italian.
Babel came out right around the time I was moving back to Italy after graduation, and I deeply related to the experience of not relating to your native language, and by extension your native culture. I'm not from a bilingual family, and yet I spent half my life in english-speaking spaces. Once I came back home I found that my Italian was rusty, the vocabulary stuck to that of a 13 year old. I struggled to communicate because that there were concepts, ideas, stories, knowledge and even behaviors that I had no way to articulate in Italian, and a barrier had come up between me and whoever didn't speak English as fluently as I do, which was most of my family and friends.
I've now been back in Italy for two years, and I'm slowly getting my fluency back, but there are still some habits that I internalized through my 10 years in the states that I can't shake off, and I'm still not as confident in speaking and writing in what was supposed to be my 1st language than I am doing it in english (for example: it would have probably taken me double the time to write this out in Italian, and I wouldn't have been able to express my thoughts exactly how I wanted to).
Ok, so why this essay of a comment? All this to say that because of what my experiences have been, I found Babel to be a deeply impactful book because of how it depicted the alienation one feels when being taken away from their culture and being swept up in a foreign one. It's the first time that I've seen someone express the feeling of straddling two worlds, two countries and two existences, and how much language plays a factor in how you relate to the world and the people around you, down to changing your name from one language to another because of ease of pronunciation. It's really interesting to see the view of someone that doesn't have this experience, because to me Babel is so deeply linked my first hand experience of language and how it's both culture and communication and it helped me verbalize what I was feeling in a way that nothing ever did before.
I picked up on the racism and the historical and cultural revisionism of the dominant (and in this case colonizer) culture, but to be all of it, always, reverted back to the role language plays in controlling people. to me the thesis of Babel is that by removing a kid from their language of origin and assimilating them into that of a different world then you also remove the child from their heritage, and yet they will always be a foreigner, so the adult that grows from that child will be a citizen of nowhere, only able to be understood by the very small group of people that also have that experience. In the book Robin is the strongest case of this with his native language of Cantonese being overtaken by both English and Mandarin, but I found it to be the underlining theme that colored every page and every character.
The only thing I disagree with in your review is a SPOILER which is why I'm putting it here at the end:
I disagree that Robin wants to forget his heritage, if I remember correctly his father brought Griffin to England when he was older than Robin, and when he failed to adapt the way he wanted him too he decided that it was because he was too old and had too many memories of home, and so he went to get Robin when he was a very little kid. Robin didn't make the active choice to forget his heritage, but with the erasure of his native language the memories also went away. It's a really strange thing but your memories are linked to a language and if you lose that you also lose the memories (I know this doesn't make sense but trust me but there are some things in my memory that are so deeply linked to the language I experienced them in that if I need to talk about them in the other one I have to make a really conscious effort of translating them.)
Anyways, I'm over a year late to this video but in my defense, I just found your channel and I'm making my way through all of you backlog. Keep up the great work!
i really appreciate your honesty and vulnerability in this video
I was very privileged with Massachusetts public education. I’m sorry you feel behind. I relate in other areas of life. So glad you’ve found people enthusiastic about helping fill your gaps! You’re amazing. A “testament” (lol) to the power of knowledge.
Lmao I was just going to comment this. MA does an excellent job with education, like whenever I watch videos where people discuss their education im always so shocked because that was like 7th grade for me.
Well we do have the best education in the country.
Hearing about your (lack of) education is just heartbreaking. I'm so sorry that was held from you, and it's wonderful that you have friends who are helping fill in some gaps, although you are already a great example of what independent thought and learning can do.
It is so upsetting that there are hundreds, thousands of people who had similar schooling but they have no idea what they missed out on, and think they got a good, solid education.
WOW
Your video's always speak so much to me. I was homeschooled with Abeka all the way through high school. Your description of always feeling behind is SO TRUE.
I'm a Patreon supporter and have messaged you with some of our shared experiences. Thank you for your honesty. It's a part of my life I don't tell people about. Maybe 2-3 people who are my friends know about my up bringing. It's really important to be honest about the dangers of raising children this way and I appreciate you talking about it.
The literal WHAT!? scream in my house echoed when you mentioned about the trail of tears
Yes to Babel and your excellent analysis of it! I was raised on Polish-catholic propaganda and anti-religious communist propaganda. I was truly a stupid and confused bitch and I'm still working on this tedious mess
Very interesting and insightful, thank you!
Just finished Babel and then watched your review. I also grew up very religious and found this to be a great way to reckon with that experience of being told the Bible was completely and utterly inerrant.
I also grabbed a copy of “Wake” because of this review! Thanks for the great content.
such and insightful watch! Thank you
This was my education. But I went to public school… in Texas. And if you want to really be afraid, since Texas is one of the largest buyers of textbooks that they will write the books that Texas wants. And they want this.
Thanks for this great review, I will find some time to read Babel. I first heard about the author RF Kuang from her book Yellow Face 😊
The term you just used “creative non-fiction” gave me the perfect word to describe this book to my friends. After I read Babel, I knew I had to talk to people about it, but couldn’t quite articulate how they should adjust their expectations about it. Sure, there were well-done fantasy elements, but calling it fantasy didn’t really feel right either. I could definitely see why people wouldn’t be as into it as I was (a linguistics nerd who is also very used to reading long articles with footnotes on less interesting stuff). I’d listened to reviewers who didn’t like Babel for its plot elements either, but what kept me hooked throughout was trying to see what argument R.F. Kuang was trying to convey, and the fact she chose fiction to convey this argument is a huge plus for me. It kind of feels like getting two for the price of one (though I know this is pretty introductory, but as you said, Babel’s a needed book in precisely that sense).
As a translation student the book really feels like a class of all I've been seeing recently in terms of theory, and having translation magic is really fun. I usually don't love magic systems with very limited ressources because they become very restrictive, but this one got through.
I have REALLY strong feelings about Bible translations that I don’t feel like writing all the way out at 1am in the youtube comments, and I think it’s an important conversation to have, so I was happy to hear you articulate some of the thoughts I’ve had
Such a good review. Love how you talk about your background in your videos.
I need this book. I have no experience with fundamentalism but I have a love of history and am always sure to talk about the issues regarding racism when we discuss history, specifically art history which is also ignored in a current art history course I’m taking (unless it is used to make my professor look better). Definitely is now on my tbr
Girl! that sound like the public school system in general. You got the same education that most people got so don't feel alone but I'm glad you are taking the time to learn the truth. I also learned true history after school by doing my own research.
I know public schools curriculum is yikes and white-centric but there’s no way public schools are using Answers in Genesis as the “science” curriculum or using the Bible as a history textbook lol I feel like maybe I need to do a more in depth video explaining
Loved this review!
Rachel! I’m studying history with the goal of getting into archivist work and making digital archives more accessible for everyone, so that everyone is able to gather information they otherwise wouldn’t have known about. I’m definitely a loooooong ways away from building this digital archive but I would still appreciate your opinion on how I could make this archive more accessible for fundies and former fundies to navigate and learn from.
Thanks so much for such great insights. I’m older and the education I got in the public schools of the 70s was very similar to yours. I’m still learning of historical events that I was never taught. This book hit me hard and I had to take a break near the end and read something else then come back to it. These book banning have got to stop. Seeing the lack of education and information as a means of control is spot on and not something I saw as clearly until you pointed it out. Thanks again.
Thank you so much for watching!
Rachel, I love your content and your HAIR! It’s so pretty and shiny, I can’t stop looking at it 🤩 (is that weird?🥴) would you ever do a hair tutorial? If not, pls consider dropping your tips!
that section of you talking about what you were taught in school, really reminded me of how i was taught in my elementary school. no wonder i started to hate school as i got older.
Dear Rachel's dad,
You should be dam proud of this woman.
Sincerely,
Progressive Christian.
I’ll be over here crying don’t mind me
@@ReadswithRachel ❤️❤️
Loved this take! I also grew up in a school where Abeka was taught but luckily later my love for reading led me to deconstructing a lot of things and eventually to the works of Angela Davis as well. It was absolutely helpful connecting those concepts and issues to really take in what this book was trying to say.
i recently found your channel a couple days ago but i haven’t stopped watching since!! as someone who loves reading and also grew up in an evangelical household (my family attended an assembly of god church as well lol), i feel so validated watching your content and hearing you speak about certain topics. i don’t really know you and i know you might not see this but i just wanted to say i’m proud of you. breaking out of religious circles is incredibly hard, especially when it’s something you grew up in and you’ve done so well for yourself. i can only hope that one day i can do the same. thank you for all you do❤️.
coming here waaaaaaaaaaaaay after the fact because i'm currently reading the secret history by donna tartt, to which babel is being compared and i'm fascinated. so of course i'm down a youtube rabbit hole and came across your video.
just wanted to say i appreciate how aware you are of the shortfalls of the education you received and that you have gone out of your way to learn on your own. not everyone does that.
SMART.
Oh man, my highschool had a very similar history curriculum to yours. My teachers held such a reverence for the founding fathers like they were divine figures. I remember I bought the Hamilton soundtrack out of spite for them because I knew it would make my old teachers clutch their pearls.
I was not raised in a catholic school but in a red state in the 2000s and moved to Washington for my last year of high school where I learned more about history in my government class than any of my history classes before, literally out "textbooks" were barely used we mostly watched October Sky over and over again in US History and War Horse in world history. This has made me very interested in reading Babel, even more than I was before
Okay I was waiting for this because I have heard that I NEEDED to read Babel so I am excited for this review.
Edit: just so you know, ALL intelligence is relative. I promise you that there are strengths and weaknesses for each human being on Earth and being denied an education does not make you stupid. I struggled so hard in school due to my mental health and yet that does not make me stupid. However, what matters is that you are continuing to educate yourself and put yourself in a position that gives you insight and freedom. THAT makes you smart, just that fact alone.
Thank you for this analysis! I didn't much care for The Poppy War, but this and Yellowface both sound intriguing to me. I've been conflicted about giving Kuang another try, but you've convinced me.
I wasn't raised fundie myself, but lots of my friends were, and even as a kid I was able to recognize how warped their educations were. My parents were ecumenical-minded and encouraged me to go to my friends' church activities and there was so much weirdness! And then after college (a Christian school but NOT Evangel) I spent almost 10 years living just down the street from the AofG world HQ.
I have the exact feelings of my early education (Christian homeschool) especially about science. Luckily I managed to teach myself a lot of real history as I got my history Bachelors (history and literature were the only subjects I got all As in lol). Science college courses were ROUGH. All I did was try to memorize enough just to barely pass. I didn’t understand anything and I felt stupid for asking questions on stuff I should have already been taught. I’m trying to read some science books to teach myself, but a lot of it still goes over my head. My friends hate it when I call myself stupid and naive, but that’s literally what I am. I had knowledge and life experience and the “outside world” kept from me in the name of keeping me ‘holy’ and brainwashed.
Hey, I've gone on a bit of a binge through a couple of your videos and find them delightful. As an aspiring writer who's a queer mom creeping closer to 30, as well as having strong opinions about Florida, it's a match well made 👌✨
Glad you’re here 💕
Have you read Educated by Tara Westover before?? It's an amazing story about a woman finding the education that her religious family denied her, absolute fave
I haven’t but I plan to!
Oooof girl I get you on the whole parent being mad you pointed out something was bad actually!! Lol my therapist and I talk about this all the time. I think the biggest issue is there’s a big gap between a parent’s intent and their impact. It’s like they expect their good intentions to override the fact that the outcome was bad, and then blame you for pointing out the bad outcome. My mom *loves* her rose tinted glasses when we talk about the past.
it's really thought-provoking to hear you speak about your education growing up, and see all sorts of parallels to my own education in a secular (although formerly christian) school in Québec, Canada. we had to take an optional class to learn anything about any other countries' history, and what we did learn completely looked over racism and discrimination, and put most things about native people as a footnote. It's a curriculum built to make people believe Canada is perfect and can do no wrong.
Thank you.
That's all I feel like I should say, but this was a wonderful review. I read Babel a couple of months ago and it gave me the biggest book hangover I have ever read. It was definitely the best book I read this year, and possibly in a long time.
While I did get a lot of education on world history growing up (I am from a colonized country myself), having now lived in France, England and the US I clearly feel the dissonance on the way British and Americans versus the "3rd world" look at the concept of Empire. And Rebecca Kuang portraited it masterfully. Also thank you for sharing so much about yourself
yoooo i'm the 1000th view, this is the first video you've put out since I became a fan! it's a good omen
THANK YOU for this review. I am going to start suggesting this for grown up fans of Harry Potter and INSTEAD of Harry Potter for anyone YA and above.
Thank you for this review! Have you read much Octavia E Butler? Her books to me felt like creative nonfiction in the way you were describing Babel
"I love this book enough for everyone" this!
Mine wasn't that bad, but I grew up in Apartheid South Africa and my last year of schooling was the last year of that specific curriculum (1995). My sister is 11 years younger than I am, and her history was completely different than mine! And my mother cornered her teacher about it and asked her why they were teaching these brutal historical events to kids. To which the teacher simply replied, 'because it happened'. But I never learned those things. I have had to re-educate myself about our country's actual history entirely. Babel has been in my to-read pile for the longest time, and your video made me pick it up today because YES! to absolutely everything you said.
I think Babel is on par with books like MAUS, Kite Runner, 1984
I never learned about most of the things that you talked about involving history until I started college. When I was in HS I took duel credit US history and most of the things that I learned the teacher told us not to tell other teachers what he was saying because the school wasn’t allowed to teach it but the college was
This is my current fave. It broke my heart in the way I needed
I was on the fence about whether or not I was going to pick this one up. I was very intrigued by the idea, but I saw some middling reviews. This changed my mind, I am going to read this next
What I particularly like is that it doesn't pull its punches regarding particularly the man who'd normally be the white savior
I know it’s not important to the main themes and point of the book but ahhhh I would LOVE to get a book about griffin what he was doing the inter workings of hermes. there’s a moment where robin describes griffin as disheveled, hurt, and like he’s been through it and i’m dying to know what he has been through (tho I have a theory he was one of the ones who was there that mission that got botched)
As an ex fundie, I feel like this needs to be on my list. Also thank you. Too many people who hate nursing go into nursing and it’s sad. I started with abeka but then we switched to Charlotte Mason/Ambleside
I haven’t heard of Ambleside! Is that fundie too?
Ok, I wanted to get this book and now I am definitely getting it. Also, I need friends like yours 😭