I feel like the biggest issue with “x person can’t talk about misogyny” is that it focuses on the victims of misogyny rather than the misogynists. Like, misogyny is a system of oppression and discrimination and control - if someone treats someone else badly due to a misogynistic mindset, that doesn’t stop being misogyny if the victim is male or nonbinary, and the focus should be on dismantling that system of misogyny and changing misogynistic mindsets rather than on policing whether what you experienced was “really” misogyny based on your gender. If that makes sense ... Regarding personal experiences, most people in my life perceive me as female even though I’m out as nonbinary. The worst I’ve had is a religious conservative cis guy trying to convince me that my gender identity was really just because I didn’t believe women could be strong/powerful/wear trousers and because of body image issues (ie “you think you’re not a woman but actually you’re just a victim of internalised misogyny”) - which was all said in that specific fake woke patronising tone men like to use for women :/
I think misogyny also affects feminine and androgynous cis men because misogyny is also the dislike of femininity and not just women so feminine and androgynous cis men are affected because they get devalued for the feminine aspects of their gender presentation.
One thing we should keep in mind when discussing "female socialization" is the implication that trans women must then have experienced "male socialization". If you listen to the experiences of trans women in their youth, you see that even if they werent female as children, they have usually experienced some form of abuse for being feminine as a child. So even though they were technically seen as male children, most of the time these women are not afforded the same privileges an obviously cis boy would be.
It's possible for all trans people to have experienced "female socialisation" if such a thing can be defined usefully. At the same time it's possible for a trans person of any gender to wish to state they didn't experience such a thing. It's safe to assume the entire concept is flawed but then it's true that trans people's experience and cis men's experience can differ dramatically, or even from all cis people.
I’m nonbinary and I think a lot of the most common critiques of nonbinary people is just misogyny that they think they can get away with. The main reason people dismiss nonbinary people is because they think all nonbinary people are just “confused girls”. Cis women just really wanna control the misogyny conversation. They think that if anyone’s experience with misogyny is different from theirs then it can’t be misogyny. Kinda like when white women highjack the feminism conversation. Everyone’s experiences is different and we have to acknowledge that. When we don’t acknowledge that we leave people out of important conversations. Edit: also a lot of oppressions overlap with each other. Something can be anti-nonbinary/cissexist and misogynistic.
Totally agree with everything you said in the video, I’m a trans guy and have also experienced misogyny so I don’t think I should be excluded form the discussion just because I don’t identify as a woman any more. I’d also like to add that misogyny also impacts cis guys in a way because if a cis man is feminine, emotional or just not masculine enough they’re seen as less of a man and respected less and in the heteronormative world we unfortunately life in femininity is automatically associated with women, so because women are seen as inferior, femininity in men is also seen as such.
There's also the obvious aspect that trans masculine people often can attest to the difference between how they are treated before and after being perceived as men. That can be a really powerful tool for opening people's eyes to misogyny.
Although, yes, cis men putting limiting AFAB people’s access to reproductive health care is a big part of misogyny, a lot of misogyny is social misogyny. Even though a trans woman isn’t AFAB therefore doesn’t have female (as in female in the biological sense of the word not the social one) genitalia and sex organs, she still presents as a woman and is generally perceived as a woman, meaning that yes, she can experience misogyny.
Thank you!! It is very needed to say things like this, that there are men who experienced life being read as women, and that woman does not literally mean vagina. Plus, I am quite happy because I feel much more confident with myself than I ever have, and I will probably come out by the end of this year and so I will live next year as the boy I´ve always been :)
ashton, if you're at all interested in a video about your style/ punk/alt style or something about how you make your chokers/ build outfits, i for one would be super interested!!
im working on a lookbook-style video where I talk about masculinity and transition and public response but !! i also just recently filmed an accessories -collection type video that maybe you’d like?? ill keep outfit-building in mind though :)
@@graveyardpansy oh hella!! i'll look out for that!! that sounds really cool, def one of your vids that could be helpful for my trans masc friends! my little cousin loves your style!
This makes me think of how afab people tend to not be taken as seriously in medical situations (especially relating to typically female health issues). I was rejected by a gynecologist referral even though I get abnormal and intensely painful symptoms during my cycle (I'm only 17) which affect my life (which I won't go into detail). If I were having these symptoms that weren't related to a menstrual cycle they would have been taken more seriously (I've mentioned some of the symptoms before thinking it wasn't to do with my cycle and I got a better response) I also don't get taken seriously as being trans since some doctors use my old name and pronouns even when they are aware that I'm taking testosterone
I agree with everything you said. I would be interested for people to talk about two other things in regards to trans people and misogyny. The first thing is how misogyny plays into male privilege. For example, with trans fem people, the loss of male privilege and the increase of misogyny with that. For trans masc people, kind of not dealing with it so much socially but when certain people find out your trans masc, they have misogyny laced in with how they interact with you, which is mixed with transphobia. At least in my experience. The other part I would like seen discussed more is trying to hold trans masc people accountable for being misogynistic, usually to be seen as more masculine.
This was really informative, I didn’t know that this was a thing and/or issue. Thanks you so much for this information. Also, your patches and jacket are looking hella fly.
I feel you so much I feel so weird talking about sexual trauma with partners that are men, bcs they are like how are you afraid of men, you are one, lacking to see how the abuse I experienced while being read as a woman and being socialized as one
I agree with what you said in this video. I just feel like when trans people discuss their experiences with misogyny it is critical that they recognize the privilege of being seen as a man. What I mean by this is that when I a 13 year old cis girl discuss feminism and my experiences with misogyny I am received with a very dismissive and “ oh look the teenage girl is acting like she actually has thoughts” manner. However I notice that when a lot of trans guys and generally more masculine non-binary people discuss misogyny and their experiences with it they are treated with more respect and acknowledgment then I could ever imagine. While that is fair and to fight prejudice we do have to work within the system we are fighting not recognizing that when men talk about these things they are listened to and when women talk about it they aren’t seems to be harmful.
Ashton do you usually get possessive comments and possessive feedback from the general public etc. When you go out in public wearing those denim jackets with those badges etc. On them?
...& yes my best friend does that too carries herself in such a confident tough manner that almost says you want to mess with me or want to have anything to do with making fun of my bff (me) you won’t last long on this earth 🌍 lol 😂! She looks actually like a police officer!
I think it's probably worth noting that trans men and AFAB nonbinary people have a tendency to talk over trans women and other transfems in discussions of misogyny. Saying for sure why is definitely above my pay grade, but it's something I've noticed a lot and something we should definitely be cognizant of. (Especially because in a transphobic society The Cis™ tend to only tolerate trans perspectives for a limited amount of time.)
With all due respect I've experienced the opposite. But I'll take your word for it, and with that in mind I would like to offer the possibility that this topic is discussed so much by AFAB trans people because it's a tricky topic. Misogyny effects us because we're AFAB but we are often men or transmasculine. Frankly, we're often put in the same positions that cis women are put into depending on the situation, and that fact alone challenges the dominant narrative that misogyny only effects women (cis or not). If anything trans/nonbinary AFAB people don't talk about this enough, in fact this is the first time I've ever come across this discourse on RUclips. Of course that doesn't excuse any group talking over another especially when it comes to transfem experiences, I just hope this provides an explanation of this problem that you can sympathize with.
@@gaddaffilastname4532 right. so I don't have to sympathize with the struggles of afab trans folks. I get it. but the truth of the matter is that transfems (especially black transfems) are at a much higher risk of violence, so it's definitely a mistake to talk over their experiences of misogyny
@@kaiscott4512 Well of course, nobody is advocating that we talk over other trans people. I replied to you because your comment frankly came off as a little reactionary, as if you're trying to deny a problem for vague reasons. I'm not saying that was your reasoning but it just looks kind of bad in this context.
I feel like the biggest issue with “x person can’t talk about misogyny” is that it focuses on the victims of misogyny rather than the misogynists. Like, misogyny is a system of oppression and discrimination and control - if someone treats someone else badly due to a misogynistic mindset, that doesn’t stop being misogyny if the victim is male or nonbinary, and the focus should be on dismantling that system of misogyny and changing misogynistic mindsets rather than on policing whether what you experienced was “really” misogyny based on your gender. If that makes sense ...
Regarding personal experiences, most people in my life perceive me as female even though I’m out as nonbinary. The worst I’ve had is a religious conservative cis guy trying to convince me that my gender identity was really just because I didn’t believe women could be strong/powerful/wear trousers and because of body image issues (ie “you think you’re not a woman but actually you’re just a victim of internalised misogyny”) - which was all said in that specific fake woke patronising tone men like to use for women :/
Achilleus thank you! People love to target nonbinary people is misogynistic talking points
I absolutely agree with you! It's the mindset that matters, not so much the gender identity of the person who is targeted.
I think misogyny also affects feminine and androgynous cis men because misogyny is also the dislike of femininity and not just women so feminine and androgynous cis men are affected because they get devalued for the feminine aspects of their gender presentation.
One thing we should keep in mind when discussing "female socialization" is the implication that trans women must then have experienced "male socialization". If you listen to the experiences of trans women in their youth, you see that even if they werent female as children, they have usually experienced some form of abuse for being feminine as a child. So even though they were technically seen as male children, most of the time these women are not afforded the same privileges an obviously cis boy would be.
It's possible for all trans people to have experienced "female socialisation" if such a thing can be defined usefully. At the same time it's possible for a trans person of any gender to wish to state they didn't experience such a thing. It's safe to assume the entire concept is flawed but then it's true that trans people's experience and cis men's experience can differ dramatically, or even from all cis people.
Ultimately our experiences even before coming out may differ substantially from all cis people's in terms of how we're targeted.
I’m nonbinary and I think a lot of the most common critiques of nonbinary people is just misogyny that they think they can get away with. The main reason people dismiss nonbinary people is because they think all nonbinary people are just “confused girls”. Cis women just really wanna control the misogyny conversation. They think that if anyone’s experience with misogyny is different from theirs then it can’t be misogyny. Kinda like when white women highjack the feminism conversation. Everyone’s experiences is different and we have to acknowledge that. When we don’t acknowledge that we leave people out of important conversations.
Edit: also a lot of oppressions overlap with each other. Something can be anti-nonbinary/cissexist and misogynistic.
Totally agree with everything you said in the video, I’m a trans guy and have also experienced misogyny so I don’t think I should be excluded form the discussion just because I don’t identify as a woman any more.
I’d also like to add that misogyny also impacts cis guys in a way because if a cis man is feminine, emotional or just not masculine enough they’re seen as less of a man and respected less and in the heteronormative world we unfortunately life in femininity is automatically associated with women, so because women are seen as inferior, femininity in men is also seen as such.
Hello it RM
Totally agree with you.
There's also the obvious aspect that trans masculine people often can attest to the difference between how they are treated before and after being perceived as men. That can be a really powerful tool for opening people's eyes to misogyny.
It's not really that often, it's just that more privileged trans men are popular on RUclips a lot.
Although, yes, cis men putting limiting AFAB people’s access to reproductive health care is a big part of misogyny, a lot of misogyny is social misogyny. Even though a trans woman isn’t AFAB therefore doesn’t have female (as in female in the biological sense of the word not the social one) genitalia and sex organs, she still presents as a woman and is generally perceived as a woman, meaning that yes, she can experience misogyny.
this is a super important discussion, im glad you’re talking about it
also your jacket looks awesome so far and i love the color!
Thank you!! It is very needed to say things like this, that there are men who experienced life being read as women, and that woman does not literally mean vagina. Plus, I am quite happy because I feel much more confident with myself than I ever have, and I will probably come out by the end of this year and so I will live next year as the boy I´ve always been :)
ashton, if you're at all interested in a video about your style/ punk/alt style or something about how you make your chokers/ build outfits, i for one would be super interested!!
im working on a lookbook-style video where I talk about masculinity and transition and public response but !! i also just recently filmed an accessories -collection type video that maybe you’d like?? ill keep outfit-building in mind though :)
@@graveyardpansy oh hella!! i'll look out for that!! that sounds really cool, def one of your vids that could be helpful for my trans masc friends! my little cousin loves your style!
This makes me think of how afab people tend to not be taken as seriously in medical situations (especially relating to typically female health issues). I was rejected by a gynecologist referral even though I get abnormal and intensely painful symptoms during my cycle (I'm only 17) which affect my life (which I won't go into detail). If I were having these symptoms that weren't related to a menstrual cycle they would have been taken more seriously (I've mentioned some of the symptoms before thinking it wasn't to do with my cycle and I got a better response)
I also don't get taken seriously as being trans since some doctors use my old name and pronouns even when they are aware that I'm taking testosterone
Please do an updated stim toy collection! Or stim toys you like at the moment!
I agree with everything you said. I would be interested for people to talk about two other things in regards to trans people and misogyny. The first thing is how misogyny plays into male privilege. For example, with trans fem people, the loss of male privilege and the increase of misogyny with that. For trans masc people, kind of not dealing with it so much socially but when certain people find out your trans masc, they have misogyny laced in with how they interact with you, which is mixed with transphobia. At least in my experience. The other part I would like seen discussed more is trying to hold trans masc people accountable for being misogynistic, usually to be seen as more masculine.
ashton rly posts when i need a video to cheer me up :')
Hi ashton! I love your videos, and patches & parley is my fav type of video you make. Please keep the series going with the series!
I love patches and parley!!!
1:02 you talking with the scissors is stressing me out lol
i definitely agree!
This was really informative, I didn’t know that this was a thing and/or issue. Thanks you so much for this information. Also, your patches and jacket are looking hella fly.
Thank you so much for talking about this topic, I've literally never seen it discussed by someone with any sort of platform.
Sparkles for support ✨✨✨✨✨✨
Also your vest looks sO COOL IM LOV
I feel you so much I feel so weird talking about sexual trauma with partners that are men, bcs they are like how are you afraid of men, you are one, lacking to see how the abuse I experienced while being read as a woman and being socialized as one
I agree with what you said in this video. I just feel like when trans people discuss their experiences with misogyny it is critical that they recognize the privilege of being seen as a man. What I mean by this is that when I a 13 year old cis girl discuss feminism and my experiences with misogyny I am received with a very dismissive and “ oh look the teenage girl is acting like she actually has thoughts” manner. However I notice that when a lot of trans guys and generally more masculine non-binary people discuss misogyny and their experiences with it they are treated with more respect and acknowledgment then I could ever imagine. While that is fair and to fight prejudice we do have to work within the system we are fighting not recognizing that when men talk about these things they are listened to and when women talk about it they aren’t seems to be harmful.
7:30 sorry I got distracted by your dog 🥺
Ashton do you usually get possessive comments and possessive feedback from the general public etc. When you go out in public wearing those denim jackets with those badges etc. On them?
I’m not sure what you mean by “possessive”?
Sorry I meant to say positive...
okay i just started by first jacket and uhhh i wanna vest now hngh
...& yes my best friend does that too carries herself in such a confident tough manner that almost says you want to mess with me or want to have anything to do with making fun of my bff (me) you won’t last long on this earth 🌍 lol 😂! She looks actually like a police officer!
omg your so handsome im gunna cry. (no homo)
😁😁
i’m new
i already l o v e you
👀🎶
Bet it's great to be home bet your dog and cat gave you loads of kisses lol :-)
I think it's probably worth noting that trans men and AFAB nonbinary people have a tendency to talk over trans women and other transfems in discussions of misogyny. Saying for sure why is definitely above my pay grade, but it's something I've noticed a lot and something we should definitely be cognizant of. (Especially because in a transphobic society The Cis™ tend to only tolerate trans perspectives for a limited amount of time.)
With all due respect I've experienced the opposite. But I'll take your word for it, and with that in mind I would like to offer the possibility that this topic is discussed so much by AFAB trans people because it's a tricky topic. Misogyny effects us because we're AFAB but we are often men or transmasculine. Frankly, we're often put in the same positions that cis women are put into depending on the situation, and that fact alone challenges the dominant narrative that misogyny only effects women (cis or not). If anything trans/nonbinary AFAB people don't talk about this enough, in fact this is the first time I've ever come across this discourse on RUclips. Of course that doesn't excuse any group talking over another especially when it comes to transfem experiences, I just hope this provides an explanation of this problem that you can sympathize with.
@@gaddaffilastname4532 I am a afab trans person
@@kaiscott4512 So am I
@@gaddaffilastname4532 right. so I don't have to sympathize with the struggles of afab trans folks. I get it. but the truth of the matter is that transfems (especially black transfems) are at a much higher risk of violence, so it's definitely a mistake to talk over their experiences of misogyny
@@kaiscott4512 Well of course, nobody is advocating that we talk over other trans people. I replied to you because your comment frankly came off as a little reactionary, as if you're trying to deny a problem for vague reasons. I'm not saying that was your reasoning but it just looks kind of bad in this context.