New sub. I’m a ginger of Irish and English heritage here in the us and I have always, always been fascinated by druids. (Which is why I always play one in any game LOL). You’re amazing. You just sat down and repeated this all from your brain and it was so educational and entertaining.
@@generichistory well there goes my adoration. You think you find a brilliant and sexy man to admire on the net and boom. He destroys your hopes and disappoints you. I GUESS I’ll stay subbed. 🤣
@@generichistory Well, you'd have made a unreliable druid: What are you, a fucking Frank? P.S. If you make that history/victor/write T shirt, I'll buy one!
There was some evidence I remember reading about that suggested that the Gauls, while fighting Rome, had experienced a period where they had to resort to Polyandry, much like a certain modern extremist group which shares their name with an Egyptian goddess. Which would have been shocking because most human cultures throughout most periods of our existence practiced polygyny, especially among the more well bred and disciplined segments of the population who could conceivably convince multiple women to share a man rather than settle for a less desirable suitor they'd have to themselves. Other primate species are the same. With small social groups centered around polygynyous families, where the members who leave the group are typically males coming of age, females who are born to the group and have come of age, and females who were breeding partners that want to move on. The Romans, for what it's worth, were also bizarre in that they enforced monogamy as a means of quelling the male dissidents in their society. I guess women were like land or bread to them. If you have too many, and someone doesn't have any, you have to share, whether the women agree or not.
Aye I do recall though finding a few examples of polygamy even within the Roman empire. Although you're right they certainly try to enforce monogamous marriage. I will have to find the primary source for that
chat literally were doing cultural appropriation before it was a thing, kill druids for practicing, but then take whatever parts of their culture they thought was fashionable
Yes and no. Britons are Celts the same way North Africans are Arabs. From adopting a language, a set of traditions and aspects of a culture and its customs. Britons therefore are Celtic. Because of Celticization. Similar to the Maghreb being a product of Arabization.
Interesting modern take on 'taking your shirt off' is some British football supporters do it still in cold weather, definitely to intimidate the opposing supporters in the same way... Fantastic video thanks for doing it 😊
This wiping off of the educated classes by the invaders, that's something that has been extensively used in much more modern times too. As for literacy, there's an interesting book by David Abram "The Spell of the Sensuous" - he writes about a change in human mindset that came with writing, and how writing changed from being illustrative (like hieroglyphs) to conceptual. I'm greatly simplifying his ideas, but he suggests that literacy was the beginning of our separation from nature, and so now the tree is rarely experienced as an alive phenomenon but as a mental concept, we have a definition for everything. Abram says there was a point in human history when writing was seen as evil. What I'm trying to say is that although we are used to equating illiteracy with what we call barbaric and primitive, there might have been some kind of wisdom there which we lost when we swapped experience for literacy and knowing for education.
Great video. I'm interested in Pre Roman invasion culture, particularly on Druid's and warrior culture. Discussions on this topic are few and far between so videos like this are greatly appreciated.
Pre history is so much more enigmatic to study. I've been trying to build a picture, roughly, of what pre Roman Britain was like and how it's not as simple as it first seems and we weren't all naked savages waiting for the Romans to come show us how to be civilized. :)
1. Cimbri & Teutones were not Celtic but Germanic (hint: Teutons) 2. The Celts weren’t entirely illiterate - several names appear on their coinage (albeit under Roman/Greek influence). 3. The Celts were not all that backward compared to the Romans - indeed they knew how to make chainmail armour centuries before the Romans copied it from them; also their habitations - in Gaul at least - were very large and organised, verging on cities.
The Romans were very specific, the people of Britain were Britones not Keltoi. The Romans spent 300 years describing the Britons in this way or as Pictii (Painted Ones), Caledonii, Cambrii.
I have greatly enjoyed your podcasts for the details, and the style of presentation. May I ask as to why I can't find any videos on the life of Julius Caesar and Augustus presented in your unique style? Is it because there already are so many other videos about them? It would be very interesting to know from you about the life and achievements of Marcus Agrippa.
I'd love to do a video on Agrippa and likely will at some point! You're exactly right on the Caesar and Augustus front. I've considered doing videos on them but haven't really thought of anything that new that I might add to the story of such well known figures
Thanks for making this video. I appreciated the presentation and putting the dots cohesively together as far as what little is known about pre-Roman Britain. Sadly, as an American, I can say firsthand we tend not to even be aware that Rome invaded, nor know anything much, if anything at all, about Saxons, the Normans, the Battle of Hastings, or William the Conqueror. Three hundred years of French spoken in the royal court of England, and most of us are lucky if we can remember the role of the French in the creation of an independent United States. All hail video games and miniseries for generating further interest for the ones of us that do. We are, however, at least mildly aware of what happened within the last 500 years to the catalogued and generalized 500 nations of indigenous peoples of North America. If the majority of us being of Western European descent were cognizant of our own progenitors’ misty origins and colonially obliterated histories, perhaps we’d identify with Native Americans with a little kinship mingled in with our white guilt. At any rate, thanks for the lecture.
the Celts painting themselves may have been something they did just in battle prep, such as the Native tribes here in US did, their battle paint when going out upon the war path, it would make sense
My thoughts on this though entirely speculative were that combining ochre and woad would have been an effective camouflage. There could even potentially have been separate patterning for warfare (intimidating), ceremony (skilful), and hunting (practical).
Thank you for what is the most accurate and balanced version of our history that I've seen. You start off raising all the points I've constantly got to make.
Was going to make a point about "picts" and woad, a lot of folk think they just ran around like that all the time, for the fashionable appearance. By the time the Romans started to build the Antonine wall where I live, Legio XX stamped on the massive Roman fortress at the next village to me called Camelon, 1st, 2nd century AD there was a full on war going on here, Rome and who ever just happened to not realise they were Rome yet, woad is just war paint, Scottish football fans the "Tartan army" still puts the "war paint" on today. Until then Rome was calling the people here Caledonia or something like that. This mythical race of blue painted people I personally don't think were a "culture" or "people" but an army, the fact that Antonine the wall here is just a ditch that not many talk about, stone construction never took place, in comparison with Hadrians, and a lot of other local evidence would suggest a massive battle took place, 150AD roughly, along the northern frontier of the Roman empire near a massive Roman fort called Camelon. Though a Roman leading Sarmatian cavalry, with a couple of painted blue people and a wizard, in defence against Saxons (from 400 years later) at a fort near Badon Hill which was Camelot is a far better story, I certainly think so. www.cambridgeairphotos.com/location/ckh72/ www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-15165914#:~:text=Archaeologists%20have%20uncovered%20evidence%20of,at%20the%20development%20in%20Camelon.&text=Experts%20believe%20the%20forts%20date,first%20and%20second%20centuries%20AD. Something of the Celts did survive, that red tinge to your hair is the same as mine.
@@TheJpf79 Yeah the second century CE seems to be the main period in which the Romans took an interest in anything beyond Hadrian's wall. After Septimius Severus repaired it in the early 200's, I think the Romans more or less permanently abandoned any effort to incorporate the area into the empire. And, as with all the people who lived on Rome's northern border, they are more heavily "mythologised" than the people who were brought within it's borders.
@@generichistory There is a lot more archaeology taking place up here these days, massive "Pictish" settlement around "Tap o the North" one of the vitrified hill forts up there. 3rd century its claimed goes back to, 4000 people, you repeat that with the 16 forts that we know of and compare it to a legions size of about 6000 iirc, you've got an awful lot of people living up here that are not supposed to have been living up here, then add the fact that it wasn't Rome that the Saxons fought, it was those who became Wales, That's how far the massive "Dragon" army pushed Rome back in the centuries between Antonine and Saxons invading. Like you said about Rome writing having to justify the people it was invading, so did Saxon writing. That's why certain attitudes exist today from a few people with regards to Celtic nations, the war that Ireland fought 100 years ago as example, is the same war of conquest from centuries ago. There is a thing called "The book of Deer" after "years of talks" with Cambridge university, some Scottish archaeologists have been allowed to borrow some of the oldest written Scottish Gaelic in existence, it will be returning to Scotland for the first time in over 1000 years. Hopefully someday people can find that missing gap in our history. Edit: Just thought I would add before someone comes on throwing braveheart references at me, what I just typed is simply truth, not some anti England propaganda, My daughter is English, lives in Eastbourne.
...the druids came from Atlantis(Not it's Real name because the word atlantis simply means island in the Atlantic) & they were Masters of Science..they also built Schools & Hospitals & consequently were killed off because they would not give the tribal chiefs the Opium they used for painkillers...& for teaching the women & children in their schools, that they had also built in Brittan when they arrived there...& Here is a Horrific Fact you Really should know..the straw man you so love to play with was actually used to burn the most hated druids Alive in...so..think on That for a while....Know what you are Actually celebrating. ...the Fake Wannabie druids of today bear Zero resemblance to the Real druids of the ancient days..i Know this because my grandfather was one of the Original bloodlines, complete with books & Accurate knowledge of their past.(Yes, i am Old now too & this legacy has been Confirmed by DNA & blood testing..the Govs know who we are & where we are.) He would die all over again if he saw what ridiculousness was pretendpassing for them now.
Proud to have Celtic DNA and British and Irish heritage, as well as French and German, Frank, Lombard, Vandal, Saxon, Danish Viking and a smattering of other things.
I thought about mentioning Ogham, but as far as I can tell it only really developed around the 4th century CE. tbh Celtic culture in Ireland would probably have to be a totally separate video
The horn helmets were not just funny hats, they use in battles or ceremonies to try and summon the war spirits (as what they used to call it), it serves a similar purpose of the Hindu Turbans. Germanic, Celtic and Norse tribes had an understanding of Chakras like Hindus, just a different interpretations, and you can find horn helmets all across Europe and parts of Persia and India
Look at the history-reated videos on the cosmic agency channel with gosia. Laugh if you like but those aliens have some pretty convincing alternative takes on ancient history. Mind blowing.
The Waterloo hat (it wasn't a helmet, it's paper-thin) was probably a one-off thing or a curio, not something popular. Even if we assume it had a "ceremonial use", we have nothing that corroborates this; it might as well just have been a conversation-starter exhibited in some noble's hall.
Sorry for making a second comment, however I think I can add something else of value. In Ireland, just after the catholic church gained dubious control through the use of their Darth Brian Boru. There was a lot of interaction between the church and a third very important class of Celts who are often lumped in with druids by the Romans. The Brehons or Brethons, who were the backbone of the Brethonic Law. These men were lawyer-poets who had kept a meticulous mental record of the oral history, parables, folklore, laws, ceremonies, and traditions of their society. They were known to have died young most of the time because they would often fall in love with people struggling with serious mental/emotional issues in the way that only a compassionate and dedicated poet and barrister would. And these ill fated romances would ether end in the Brehon being murdered by their lover or committing suicide due to heartbreak. Those who survived their bleeding hearts and destructive whirlwind romances and were actually able to help their lovers improve their mental well-being, and had twenty years of legal experience, were allowed to act as judges in the place of a king in lesser cases.
Interesting. it's certainly a good point that the Romans had a tendency to generalise when talking about other cultures, so it would make sense that they would use the word "druid" as an umbrella term and ignore what was probably a very complex society
![DDG & G Herbo - Nosey [Official Video]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/I9Ra0Zc2NlQ/mqdefault.jpg)
Omg the history is written by people who can write 😂😂😂😂😂
New sub. I’m a ginger of Irish and English heritage here in the us and I have always, always been fascinated by druids. (Which is why I always play one in any game LOL). You’re amazing. You just sat down and repeated this all from your brain and it was so educational and entertaining.
I feel obliged to admit i had notes with me, i couldn't memorise all of that! But thanks!
@@generichistory well there goes my adoration. You think you find a brilliant and sexy man to admire on the net and boom. He destroys your hopes and disappoints you. I GUESS I’ll stay subbed. 🤣
@@generichistory Well, you'd have made a unreliable druid: What are you, a fucking Frank? P.S. If you make that history/victor/write T shirt, I'll buy one!
@@jeffcampbell1555 That's a good merch idea actually :')
He still hasn’t made his onlyfans. Lazy.
He gets his shirt off at 11:05, thank me later ladies ;)
Great video mate
There was some evidence I remember reading about that suggested that the Gauls, while fighting Rome, had experienced a period where they had to resort to Polyandry, much like a certain modern extremist group which shares their name with an Egyptian goddess.
Which would have been shocking because most human cultures throughout most periods of our existence practiced polygyny, especially among the more well bred and disciplined segments of the population who could conceivably convince multiple women to share a man rather than settle for a less desirable suitor they'd have to themselves. Other primate species are the same. With small social groups centered around polygynyous families, where the members who leave the group are typically males coming of age, females who are born to the group and have come of age, and females who were breeding partners that want to move on.
The Romans, for what it's worth, were also bizarre in that they enforced monogamy as a means of quelling the male dissidents in their society. I guess women were like land or bread to them. If you have too many, and someone doesn't have any, you have to share, whether the women agree or not.
Aye I do recall though finding a few examples of polygamy even within the Roman empire. Although you're right they certainly try to enforce monogamous marriage. I will have to find the primary source for that
Augustus(Octavian) enforced monagamy, amongst other rules/laws. It didn't work.
Perhaps there was something written about them in the library of Alexandria.
The end had me dead... Very trve, thovgh...
chat literally were doing cultural appropriation before it was a thing, kill druids for practicing, but then take whatever parts of their culture they thought was fashionable
"Romans would only sacrifice Animals... Fine!" A wee bit normatively sarcastic, what? 😮
Britons are not celts they are more ancient than that
Yes and no.
Britons are Celts the same way North Africans are Arabs.
From adopting a language, a set of traditions and aspects of a culture and its customs.
Britons therefore are Celtic. Because of Celticization.
Similar to the Maghreb being a product of Arabization.
I want that on a poster
History is not written by the victor, it's written by the people who can fucking write
I'm thinking of putting it on a T shirt
Make it a journal cover and I'll buy it from ya
literally only knowing about etruscans because romans were able to write about them
@@pyronuggets that would be perfect!
Yup
Interesting modern take on 'taking your shirt off' is some British football supporters do it still in cold weather, definitely to intimidate the opposing supporters in the same way...
Fantastic video thanks for doing it 😊
This wiping off of the educated classes by the invaders, that's something that has been extensively used in much more modern times too.
As for literacy, there's an interesting book by David Abram "The Spell of the Sensuous" - he writes about a change in human mindset that came with writing, and how writing changed from being illustrative (like hieroglyphs) to conceptual. I'm greatly simplifying his ideas, but he suggests that literacy was the beginning of our separation from nature, and so now the tree is rarely experienced as an alive phenomenon but as a mental concept, we have a definition for everything. Abram says there was a point in human history when writing was seen as evil.
What I'm trying to say is that although we are used to equating illiteracy with what we call barbaric and primitive, there might have been some kind of wisdom there which we lost when we swapped experience for literacy and knowing for education.
“History isn’t written by the victors, it’s written by people who know how to f*cking write.”
😂
thank you loved the video, can you give me some pointers on where to find out about the ancient seats of berwick pre roman if anything exists??
Great video. I'm interested in Pre Roman invasion culture, particularly on Druid's and warrior culture. Discussions on this topic are few and far between so videos like this are greatly appreciated.
Yeah they are few and far between. Cheers!
Too bad the Romans eliminated most of the cultural heritage of the world, and claimed to do so in the name of god.
Literacy is good!! "History is written by people who [flipping] know how to read & write!" My Man! 😂
Pre history is so much more enigmatic to study. I've been trying to build a picture, roughly, of what pre Roman Britain was like and how it's not as simple as it first seems and we weren't all naked savages waiting for the Romans to come show us how to be civilized. :)
Thank you
"which bits are British is very clearly defined by Mother Nature with the English Channel." Gibraltar would suggest otherwise.
DID I HEAR WOAD????
1. Cimbri & Teutones were not Celtic but Germanic (hint: Teutons)
2. The Celts weren’t entirely illiterate - several names appear on their coinage (albeit under Roman/Greek influence).
3. The Celts were not all that backward compared to the Romans - indeed they knew how to make chainmail armour centuries before the Romans copied it from them; also their habitations - in Gaul at least - were very large and organised, verging on cities.
Great video, new sub
Thanks! and welcome
The Romans were very specific, the people of Britain were Britones not Keltoi. The Romans spent 300 years describing the Britons in this way or as Pictii (Painted Ones), Caledonii, Cambrii.
I can’t find any Roman sources where they explicitly say that the Britons weren’t Celtic
"go to war with each other every summer". Sounds like my family
I have greatly enjoyed your podcasts for the details, and the style of presentation. May I ask as to why I can't find any videos on the life of Julius Caesar and Augustus presented in your unique style? Is it because there already are so many other videos about them?
It would be very interesting to know from you about the life and achievements of Marcus Agrippa.
I'd love to do a video on Agrippa and likely will at some point! You're exactly right on the Caesar and Augustus front. I've considered doing videos on them but haven't really thought of anything that new that I might add to the story of such well known figures
Ik a lot of Germanic people painted themselves black
Thanks for making this video. I appreciated the presentation and putting the dots cohesively together as far as what little is known about pre-Roman Britain. Sadly, as an American, I can say firsthand we tend not to even be aware that Rome invaded, nor know anything much, if anything at all, about Saxons, the Normans, the Battle of Hastings, or William the Conqueror. Three hundred years of French spoken in the royal court of England, and most of us are lucky if we can remember the role of the French in the creation of an independent United States. All hail video games and miniseries for generating further interest for the ones of us that do.
We are, however, at least mildly aware of what happened within the last 500 years to the catalogued and generalized 500 nations of indigenous peoples of North America.
If the majority of us being of Western European descent were cognizant of our own progenitors’ misty origins and colonially obliterated histories, perhaps we’d identify with Native Americans with a little kinship mingled in with our white guilt.
At any rate, thanks for the lecture.
Gay Celts? Please tell me more :)
the Celts painting themselves may have been something they did just in battle prep, such as the Native tribes here in US did, their battle paint when going out upon the war path, it would make sense
My thoughts on this though entirely speculative were that combining ochre and woad would have been an effective camouflage. There could even potentially have been separate patterning for warfare (intimidating), ceremony (skilful), and hunting (practical).
How do you know they weren't collecting heads ironically? Brill vid!
Great video really enjoyed this ❤
Thank you for what is the most accurate and balanced version of our history that I've seen.
You start off raising all the points I've constantly got to make.
Was going to make a point about "picts" and woad, a lot of folk think they just ran around like that all the time, for the fashionable appearance.
By the time the Romans started to build the Antonine wall where I live, Legio XX stamped on the massive Roman fortress at the next village to me called Camelon, 1st, 2nd century AD there was a full on war going on here, Rome and who ever just happened to not realise they were Rome yet, woad is just war paint, Scottish football fans the "Tartan army" still puts the "war paint" on today.
Until then Rome was calling the people here Caledonia or something like that.
This mythical race of blue painted people I personally don't think were a "culture" or "people" but an army, the fact that Antonine the wall here is just a ditch that not many talk about, stone construction never took place, in comparison with Hadrians, and a lot of other local evidence would suggest a massive battle took place, 150AD roughly, along the northern frontier of the Roman empire near a massive Roman fort called Camelon.
Though a Roman leading Sarmatian cavalry, with a couple of painted blue people and a wizard, in defence against Saxons (from 400 years later) at a fort near Badon Hill which was Camelot is a far better story, I certainly think so.
www.cambridgeairphotos.com/location/ckh72/
www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-tayside-central-15165914#:~:text=Archaeologists%20have%20uncovered%20evidence%20of,at%20the%20development%20in%20Camelon.&text=Experts%20believe%20the%20forts%20date,first%20and%20second%20centuries%20AD.
Something of the Celts did survive, that red tinge to your hair is the same as mine.
@@TheJpf79 Yeah the second century CE seems to be the main period in which the Romans took an interest in anything beyond Hadrian's wall. After Septimius Severus repaired it in the early 200's, I think the Romans more or less permanently abandoned any effort to incorporate the area into the empire. And, as with all the people who lived on Rome's northern border, they are more heavily "mythologised" than the people who were brought within it's borders.
@@generichistory There is a lot more archaeology taking place up here these days, massive "Pictish" settlement around "Tap o the North" one of the vitrified hill forts up there. 3rd century its claimed goes back to, 4000 people, you repeat that with the 16 forts that we know of and compare it to a legions size of about 6000 iirc, you've got an awful lot of people living up here that are not supposed to have been living up here, then add the fact that it wasn't Rome that the Saxons fought, it was those who became Wales, That's how far the massive "Dragon" army pushed Rome back in the centuries between Antonine and Saxons invading. Like you said about Rome writing having to justify the people it was invading, so did Saxon writing.
That's why certain attitudes exist today from a few people with regards to Celtic nations, the war that Ireland fought 100 years ago as example, is the same war of conquest from centuries ago. There is a thing called "The book of Deer" after "years of talks" with Cambridge university, some Scottish archaeologists have been allowed to borrow some of the oldest written Scottish Gaelic in existence, it will be returning to Scotland for the first time in over 1000 years.
Hopefully someday people can find that missing gap in our history.
Edit: Just thought I would add before someone comes on throwing braveheart references at me, what I just typed is simply truth, not some anti England propaganda, My daughter is English, lives in Eastbourne.
I loved this video!
...the druids came from Atlantis(Not it's Real name because the word atlantis simply means island in the Atlantic) & they were Masters of Science..they also built Schools & Hospitals & consequently were killed off because they would not give the tribal chiefs the Opium they used for painkillers...& for teaching the women & children in their schools, that they had also built in Brittan when they arrived there...& Here is a Horrific Fact you Really should know..the straw man you so love to play with was actually used to burn the most hated druids Alive in...so..think on That for a while....Know what you are Actually celebrating.
...the Fake Wannabie druids of today bear Zero resemblance to the Real druids of the ancient days..i Know this because my grandfather was one of the Original bloodlines, complete with books & Accurate knowledge of their past.(Yes, i am Old now too & this legacy has been Confirmed by DNA & blood testing..the Govs know who we are & where we are.) He would die all over again if he saw what ridiculousness was pretendpassing for them now.
Proud to have Celtic DNA and British and Irish heritage, as well as French and German, Frank, Lombard, Vandal, Saxon, Danish Viking and a smattering of other things.
Didn't that use Ogham? You said they did not read or write? Thanks, nice video:)
I thought about mentioning Ogham, but as far as I can tell it only really developed around the 4th century CE. tbh Celtic culture in Ireland would probably have to be a totally separate video
The horn helmets were not just funny hats, they use in battles or ceremonies to try and summon the war spirits (as what they used to call it), it serves a similar purpose of the Hindu Turbans. Germanic, Celtic and Norse tribes had an understanding of Chakras like Hindus, just a different interpretations, and you can find horn helmets all across Europe and parts of Persia and India
Celts illiterate? No. Rome not only destroyed the druids but also the books. Or like the library in Alexandria....it could still be in the Vatican.
Wtf are you on about pal?
yeah' i'd actually really like you to expand on this.
Look at the history-reated videos on the cosmic agency channel with gosia. Laugh if you like but those aliens have some pretty convincing alternative takes on ancient history. Mind blowing.
@@skoorbnimajnib5602 i'd prefer to trust historical fact rather than a series of garbage conspiracy theories
@@satiricalhaz-homeofbanter4371 you're welcome! Enjoy!
Cheers mate
the france part of great brittain. says so in the kings title.
"we haven't got a fuckin clue" I feel that bud I feel that
The Waterloo hat (it wasn't a helmet, it's paper-thin) was probably a one-off thing or a curio, not something popular. Even if we assume it had a "ceremonial use", we have nothing that corroborates this; it might as well just have been a conversation-starter exhibited in some noble's hall.
Labour is seldom wasted in a tough environment, though that's not to say craftmanship for it's own sake wasn't practised.
Sorry for making a second comment, however I think I can add something else of value. In Ireland, just after the catholic church gained dubious control through the use of their Darth Brian Boru. There was a lot of interaction between the church and a third very important class of Celts who are often lumped in with druids by the Romans. The Brehons or Brethons, who were the backbone of the Brethonic Law. These men were lawyer-poets who had kept a meticulous mental record of the oral history, parables, folklore, laws, ceremonies, and traditions of their society. They were known to have died young most of the time because they would often fall in love with people struggling with serious mental/emotional issues in the way that only a compassionate and dedicated poet and barrister would. And these ill fated romances would ether end in the Brehon being murdered by their lover or committing suicide due to heartbreak. Those who survived their bleeding hearts and destructive whirlwind romances and were actually able to help their lovers improve their mental well-being, and had twenty years of legal experience, were allowed to act as judges in the place of a king in lesser cases.
Interesting. it's certainly a good point that the Romans had a tendency to generalise when talking about other cultures, so it would make sense that they would use the word "druid" as an umbrella term and ignore what was probably a very complex society
18:30 so nothing has changed.