I always compare commander to a board game where you play with your friends and/or family. Imagine playing monopoly and someone will keep you hostage in prision until he/she wins 2 hours later 😅 I feel you 🙏🏻
@@DaWyssTVimagine playing monopoly where someone has a monopoly then buys one of each other color to prevent anyone else from gaining a winning board state…..oh wait, that’s a good idea.
Y'all ever help someone count their Mana. Like 7 Mana. So they cast an elesh norm grand cenobite, while your playing a weenies deck. You know what though? It brought the table together to try and get the norn off the table. And that was beautiful.
Opponents would always just "fail to find" when you flash in your Opposition Agent. Controlling the opponent during the search is required so that you can force them to actually "find" something.
I think how often you see a card really is an inherent part of the salt factor though. It's not just how oppressive, but also how ubiquitous. Being blown out by Tabernacle once a year (or decade) is kind of a unique experience, but seeing Dockside, One Ring, and Cyclonic Rift game after game after game is what induces the eye rolling.
I think the high salt score for Smothering Tithe isn't just about how strong it is, its just the play pattern in any commander game its played in, just a constant stream of "do you wanna pay the 2?" gets real annoying real quick
@@codysorenson4298 Its every draw, which just so happens to be one of the most common game actions. It really slows the game down, especially when people try to play around it. "Do I need the mana this turn?"
@@brandyourfan9244 I knew that it triggered on everyone draw. It's not game ending or keeping people from playing. I don't see the problem with this 4 mana enchantment. Will you pay the 2
With Rhystic and Smothering tithe specifically, being asked do I pay the 1 or do I pay the 2 over and over again is what ups the salt score significantly. If they just got the effect I know they'd be stronger, but they'd annoy me less
For me i don't mind salty cards as much as i mind salty players. I don't mind that you have an LED, breach, brain freeze combo in your deck. I mind that you are losing your mind because you can't get your combo off. I don't mind you winning with an infinite scute swarm. I mind that two turns ago you guilt tripped me about me giving 11 commander damage in the air and so i didn't attack you. I don't care that you have a 30/30 grismold. I care that if i do much as not block with a token you rain hell down on the table. I don't mind salty cards. I mind salty players
I was in a game like that. Me and an opponent kept Cyclonic Rifting each other. The other two players got to watch their boards almost every turn get blown back to hand. Unfun... But memorable.
The salt list is a mix of hypothetical salt: stasis, land destruction, and salt from seeing a really strong card a lot: rhystic study, one ring, smothering tithe
My personal salt card is Sol ring. Not because it is super powerful, but the one player getting a 2 mana head start in casual commander has a good chance to snowball, and its all about that one draw. I would be relieved if non cedh decks ban sol ring.
Maybe opposition agent should say "when your opponent finishes seaching their library, you may choose to exile that card. If so, you may play it, if you dont exile it, then exile to top card of thir library. You may play that card instead." Or something That way it turns it into a mind game, where maybe you will let them take it.
A few friends and I learned how to play magic from another one of our friends about a year ago and our introduction to the game was essentially him playing more than half the cards on this list for a couple months straight
yep happened to me as well, and said friend always thought it was hilarious. Now that everyone else plays better he doesn't like the game too much anymore and miss the old days
@LucasRoth42 yeah my friend is the same way. He made a couple star decks to "show us real magic" or whatever and when everyone learned more and didn't want to play against those decks he just had the "run more removal" mindset. Which if every game is going to boil down to "I'm going to play stax and the game will be just me playing by myself UNLESS your deck is 40% counters and removal" in which case the guys playing counters & removal had themselves handicapped, having to use 10+ cards lots for removal and counters combined, in every deck. Now he just doesn't bring his decks and plays the decks we've all made, and it's chilled out. But I don't see how more experienced players find it fun to just hardlock new players who want to learn the game.
@@YokedDrunkard Sounds like someone who's only interested in winning. Wanting to win I can get, but the people who *only* care about winning I'll never understand. At that point why even bother getting your friends involved in a game that you're never comfortable with losing? This is exactly what online TCGs are for. Where you can run whatever degenerate strategy you like into a total stranger.
You're right about stealing turns but my personal loathing goes towards mill, I absolutely loathe mill decks they're way too mana efficient and losing because someone paid 10 mana for a mill combo that destroys my entire library absolutely sucks
I feel like if Dockside got released today, it would have the "if you cast it" on the card. It's not that the effect/cost is particularly unbalanced (it's definitely very strong, but not broken), it's the fact we can recur it. If it was the same cost and same effect, but on a sorcery that exiles itself, I don't think people would be nearly as mad at it. Or if it just had "if you cast it", like recent similar cards tend to have. Just shows how a very tiny detail can totally change how balanced a card is.
I’ve had Thassa’s Oracle in my Eligeth self mill deck since 2019. I’m not taking it out but I understand people hate it. Like you said it’s how you use it. I don’t think it’s EVER won me a game.
I play and have seen a couple of the stax permanents like the orbs and Vorinclex. This can be fine as long as everyone knows what kind of game they are getting themselves into. As soon as they hit the boards they become the main threat that almost everyone works towards removing. It becomes a game of how quickly can we remove that vs how long can that player keep it and themselves alive. Mass land destruction is also fine as long as its used to secure a win or as protection. Its only annoying when its used incorrectly and stalls the game.
The One Ring - What's abusive about this card is how trivial it is to bypass the so-called "burden" counter drawback, granting you repeatable immunity to everything, as well as gratuitous card draw. Return to Dust is effective, but way overpriced and color-restricted at 2WW. The One Ring is straight-up PAY-TO-WIN, not casual Commander AT ALL.
On the theme of winning a game when you would normally loose, i think winning (on upkeep os something) when at 10 poison could be an interesting (and somewhat flavorful) designspace.
The card you're thinking of is Rising Waters. I used it in my Jhoira artifacts until I removed it for the sake of more synergy. It's a mean friggin card. It oddly seems to draw more ire than winter orb. Maybe because it's an enchantment, therefore it tends to be harder to remove. I'm waiting until I feel like ordering a gilded foil Raffine, then when i do, I'm making esper Raffine stax, and it's just gonna be a conglomeration of the meanest most problematic stax pieces in the game and Raffine to power through the deck to get the ones i need based on the board state with a control package. People tend to hate stax, but i enjoy trying to solve the puzzle so to speak. I welcome every strategy as competition. I want everyone to bring their absolute best while also having fun playing whichever way they enjoy playing the game. So idc if i face stax, infect, control, superfriends, hate bears, reanimator, whatever. Bring it all on. I just wanna play the game. The only card I genuinely dislike is Iona, because it can literally shut a player out of the game entirely if they're playing a monocolored deck and that is just a bit too much. I'm fine with smokestack, but locking the mono-whatever player out by playing Iona is pretty terrible. But if i die to Toxrill or Tergrid, fair enough. 😆
Forget the Rising waters part, I think I was thinking of the wrong card. But the lock out spells are inherently mean regardless of which one it is. The decks running them can often get around it, while everyone else has to try to power through or just deal with the board, or they'll inevitably lose to the stax locks.
My biggest problem with Cyclonic Rift was it being used defensively to almost reset the game and make it take much longer than it needed to after the fun was gone. I like games where people get to do their things, their decks get to show off why they were built, who's scariest shifts around, there's a couple big scary turns, and soon someone wins. Like having soup, I guess, you get nice big spoonfulls, enjoy it, get a chance to taste all the things in it. But I don't like someone telling me I have to keep eating my soup after it's all gone and I'm forced to awkwardly scrape the cold bowl. Neither do I like someone announcing dinner is over while the soup is still so hot I have to blow on each spoonful a lot. Personally I care more about bringing the game to a satisfying close on time rather than prolonging it to win or prevent losing.
ThOracle is a perfectly fine card. I used her in my Merfolk Blink Tribal Deck because she was, in fact, a Merfolk with an ETB. Now she's in my Raffy Taffy Draw deck. ThOracle, when you played ThOracle and NOT Commander, isn't fun. When you intend to win with ThOracle, it gets boring. In order to interact with ThOracle you either need to counter it, stifle the trigger, shuffle their graveyard back in, cast a 'no one can lose/win' card, or kill them on the spot. When your deck is ThOracle, it's boring. When your deck is Thassa, Deep Dwelling, it's flavor. Edit: The whole 'Dies to removal' argument for things like Drannith I will forever use as a counter argument to defend things like Tabernacle, or even 'Just counterspell' for instants and sorceries. Drannith was designed to counter Companions, only for the mechanic to be erratted and turning Drannith into 'haha, no commander/from exile/from grave/etc.' EVERYTHING can be interactive with in some form or another, but when the RC bans cards like Iona and not Drannith? Yes, shutting a single color off is cruel but if you REALLY shut off the mono-colored player then that's entirely on you, Drannith goes against the spirit of the format; the Commander.
Dockside is definitely the most annoying card. It's not that it makes a ton of treasures for the person that cast it, it's that the entire game then becomes "can I copy Dockside", or "can I recur Dockside", "can I flicker Dockside". The entire game just becomes about Dockside. I don't know about banning it, but it's basically the same effect as The One Ring, the whole game starts becoming about The One Ring.
And yet Prime time is still on the banlist while dockside is allowed to run rampant across the format. This why I've lost all hope in the RC. They either need to have both banned or unban prime time this is getting ridiculous.
I’m gonna play cards that do things, I am playing satya and dockside is one of my favorite cards to copy every combat 💀 gotta be able to pay all the taxes on study, tithe etc
It's not 0 life, but Near-Death Experience says you win if you have 1 life on your upkeep, so I mean a flash enabler and a way to pay any amount of life at instant speed, that could be similar to thoracle, albeit at 5 mana with 3 white pips and on upkeep
7 mins in... 1. Stasis isn't seen as much, Winter Orb can be tapped to not effect its controller. 2. Thassa's Oracle came out in Jan of 2020, so people didn't have time when the poll came out (Aprilish each year) to play it (Covid). 3. Vorinclex Was one of 2 legendary creatures in my first deck and I sometimes played him instead. Now he has his own deck. Don't talk smack about Cuddles, he's awesome!
12:32 def good to overload CycRift on your opponents endstep when there are multiple stax pieces in play. Just bounce everything so you can untap and win without anything in the way.
An example for cyc rift into win would be shaman of the old ways(i think that was the name), who effectively taps to kill every player without creatures(aka biorythm). I have not seen this before but its the first thing coming to mind, that said any one sided boardwipe can do that but cycrift at instantspeed is probably the best one.
We only have one person with dockside extortionist in our playgroup and it never seems to get too out of control. The only time I remeber it winning the game was when I reanimated it with Sheoldred scriptures 😆 but there was more too that win then just dockside
I run Thassa's Oracle in a merfolk tribal deck. The only times I've ever won with it was versus mill decks, which I think is totally fair. I don't run anything specifically to combo with it.
2 things 1: you can float 3 mana while the storm cauldron is on the stack and remove it for no penalty. 2: you are entirely off about dockside and smothering tithe, the mana thise give allows the stupid plays, dont hate emrakul hate a turn 3 emrakul because of dockside and sol ring.
@@edhdeckbuilding i just think that the speed is what generates salt, nobody complains about a turn 10 omniscience but if you get it turn 3 then people hate your deck. So the problem isnt with most of those cards its about how early people can play them and how consistently they are able to with tutors and ramp. But maybe your playgroups differ in that way, nobody in my group is salty about MLD or stasis locks, but we all hate smothering tithe dockside and rhystic study. I havent played in too many other groups just my normal LGS of like 30-40 people so maybe we are more spikey? Or more casual?
All in all, despite those cards being infuriating when going up against, it's all par for the course. You must craft your decks in such a way you can answer to almost anything.
chains of mephistopheles. i saw this card only once, but it was the first time i showed up to play magic in a city i just moved to. the guy locked us all out of playing the game on his turn 3 which was our turn 2 since he went first. realistically, the people i play with now would never include this card, but that was my worst experience playing magic and that was already 7 years ago.
Storm Cauldron in my Ob Nix landfall deck. No shame. Hard enough to go aggro in edh, let alone monolith. So gotta do what i gotta do. Depends on what tier decks we want to see.
The more I watch the more I think it is a matter of how they are being used. If I'm playing a similar landfall deck sunder is going to give me more triggers, and that just makes sense 😆
I don’t play most of these, but I also wouldn’t hate seeing any played against me. As long as there is a plan, I’m ok with it. Don’t Armageddon and then let the game draw out for 20 turns, but if you are using it in an attempt to close out the game, I don’t mind it played against me. I also agree that a lot of the cards have a bad rep based on the other stuff being played with it. It’s tough for me to hate any singular magic card lol
Opinion from an amateur game designer (been at it for a few years): I feel Dockside might be more fair if it was formatted like this: "When ~ enters, if it was cast from your hand, create a tapped Treasure token for each opponent you have who controls an artifact or enchantment." This would still net between 3-4 treasure most of the time, it would still be great. It just wouldn't be as back breaking and as easily abusable as it is.
@martaneon5310 when I made a rule zero for dockside I erratted it to "make a number of treasure tokens equal to or less than the turn number plus number of players" my play group would sometimes do 3 5 or 6 player edh games if there were not enough tables so the player count part also mattered.
A lot of the salty cards aren't actually bad. The issue is that people build decks that don't actually win. If somebody blows up/locks down the lands to win, nobody gets mad. If somebody blows up/locks down the lands to make sure nobody wins, everybody gets mad.
Oppo Agent is just a flawed card, because even if you take out the first line, opponents can just "fail to find." So you've essentially played a Stranglehold-esque creature, which is actually fair. But there's no real way to make the stealing opponent's cards work fairly without changing either the "search" or "control" effect.
On one side “really guys, just play more Enchantment removal” but “taking my turn is nasty, don’t do it”… I love our community so much lmao. “You’re opinion is wrong, I’m right” lmao!!! Ummm actually, mind slaver is not bad, play trickbind or stifle, ruined halo, leyline of sactinty, or many other things. If one card can ruin your game, I would recommend go fish as a hobby instead of mtg. The theme here is “you won’t let me do what I want”. That is the most entertaining part of all this. If I don’t stop you from doing what you want, then I can’t do what I want. In one game only one person will do their thing and three will not. I’m doing what I need to stop your thing. That is what gives me a better chance to do mine. Mind slaver and opp agent seem like a good start to that. Armageddon needs to be built around but seems simple enough, stasis can work if I was better too (I’m not good enough for it). As a community we need to stop crying and play better. If your budget won’t allow you a chance, find a better matched group. It is really that simple.
Let's see how many of these my pod plays: Thassa's Oracle...yep(side not Forgotten Creation did the same thing); Armegeddon...yep; Cyclonic Rift...yes; Drannith Magistrate...yep, Rhystic Study...yep; Fierce Guardianhip...yep; Smothering Tithe...yep; The One RIng...yep; Opposition Agent...yep; Darksteel Monolith...yep; Blightsteel Colossus...yep; Demonic Consultation...yep; Orcish Bowmasters...yep; Jin-Gitaxis, Progress Tyrant...yep; Teferi, Time Raveler...yep; Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines...yep; Craterhoof Behemoth...yep; Ad Nauseeam...yep; shit we suck.
19:22 THIS! This is the issue, I had to plead for months for my EDH group to play more removal, becase noone ran a single single target removal spell, no Naturalise, no Krossan Grip, no feed the swarm. because why wate a card slot in removing 1 thing when you can pay more mana for a board wipe? because you don't even get to cast the board wipe. They just want to play ther cool stuff and not be interrupted in their turn and thus, they don't run interaction, it's crazy. I don't get how you can hate The Oozolith, not a single n+red player besides me run Vandalblast or gleeful demolition, so how do you expect to deal with that kind of threats?
To answer the question, Ulamog, the Defiler is the card i absolutely hate to see played right now. Probably not a popular choice but for me i just hate it. That card just ruins games for whoever it is played on and that in turn ruins it for me.
For me i feel like the general player in edh have no back bones they complain about everything, i had a guy at my LGS that left in the middle of a game cause my friend field of ruin his gaea's cradle. Feel like it wasn't like that at the beginning of edh but now that it such a popular format it make games unfun. The moment you start to cast removal people complain. My playgroup is "old" and we had some of the most fun games with land destruction or stax, at the end we are playing to be together and have a good time.
A couple of thoughts. 1. I am glad we don't vote on what gets banned because a lot of that list is ridiculous. And 2. All of the cards that immediately make you the arch enemy are self correcting. It likely won't take many games of 3 v 1 to convince the vast majority of people to change their deck. And yeah it is pretty clear that a lot of people have just never been wrecked by a storm cauldron, tabernacle and a variety of things that are for more heinous than some of the cards frequently griped about.
I don't know why Sarulf, Realm Eater is not up here. I call him "I am Legend" cuz he usually the only nonland out and in my experience people just stop playing things and wait to die. He is simply not fun at all.
I disagree that Winter Orb slows down the game, and yes, I wish we would see it more. What slows down the game is when everyone sitting there with one mana takes 5 minutes to do their turn when all they do is go, "Well um, gee I don't know... What can O do?." Untap your land and pass.
My ognis haste/sac tribal deck is like 80% creatures got humility played vs it... found out my deck can shift to go wide tokens/sac easily, just player removed them! And utility lands are too abundant now, blow em up.
I don’t really care about thassas oracle as long as the way you get to no cards in deck is fun. If you’re drawing your whole way through or slowly milling yourself then it’s chill if slightly annoying.
you're in the scenario where 3 players are desperately trying to get it off of the field. how many counterspells do they have? oh yeah and their lands are also tapped.
I think you’re defending against it wrong whenever it comes down in response tap your mana. Wait for it to resolve with floating manner and then use your beast within there now you didn’t lose anything.
These cards are at the top of the salt list because they are not needed in the format, boring to play against, and typically used inappropriately. Dockside sucks to see come down but I don't think it belongs on the list. Ultimately, seeing new and interesting decks use the same old shit that every other deck uses makes that old shit even more boring.
I like the Professor's take on it, they saw the problem with CEDH/EDH was fast mana was causing explosive turns, so they killed the top fast mana rocks when really, they could have killed just one and seen how it played out. Instead, it feels a bit like they threw the baby out with the bathwater. Dockside is, IMO, the only card they banned that just doesn't make sense, it's one of the few combo enablers in red, and there is no possible alternative.
Honestly I don't think the mindslaver effects are that bad, actual mindslaver you basically have to take your whole turn off to control one person in a four player game, same with emurakul, you can play like an idiot and make some stupid decisions for them but they're not always that worse off. You can use their stuff to attack the other two opponents if you want to get everyone mad at you but it dosen't usually win you the game... It's better as a solution to the arch enemy problem most of the time.
Just play removal is a bad argument just saying, there are a lot of games I’ve played where a must remove card doesn’t get removed because sometimes nobody draws removal
For me the main issue is be honest about the power level of the deck you are playing. If your deck can win on turn 4 or 5 be honest. Going to the local LGS and stomping new players into the ground is not good for long term growth of your local comander community.
Dockside is an example of a card that's way too pushed for a colour shifted card. I'm all for colour shifting of mechanics, but a colour shifted card shouldn't be significantly better or more efficient at doing the thing than the "traditional" colour that does that thing. Dockside is way more explosively efficient as ramp than the vast majority of green ramp. If the text on dockside extortionist read that for example X is the number of opponents, or X is half the number of artifacts and enchantments your opponents control rounded up, IMO it would be much more tolerable across the board.
dockside is a ritual not ramp, rituals are red or black, although printing a ritual on a creature was definitely a mistake since it's so easy to retrigger
It depence how they play the rift, if they keep returning it from their graveyard and draging out the game, I wont enjoy it, but castingen it ones wont bother me a bit. Worst card I ever played against is one I never hear in these videos Contamination, when that player is in a sacrifice theme, it really sucks, specially because black has almost no enchantment removal
A little salt is the spice of life. I play a Mogis deck that uses Jokulhaups as a victory condition & has other resource denial in the deck. OG Vorinclex is in my Goreclaw deck & my Chulane deck uses Overburden & Mana Breach. The group I plays with either deals with the problem or, when I play my Mogis deck, I accept the fact that I am Archenemy. I despise Mindslaver.
I got emrakuled in the command zone on turn 4 after cheating out ugind nexus and they toxic deluged me only to spare me so they could remove my permanents with ulamog
I guess the main theme here is: im here to play magic, i hate cards that prevent me from playing magic.
Playing Magic is a privilege, not a right. Earn it.
Sincerely,
Stax Players
I always compare commander to a board game where you play with your friends and/or family. Imagine playing monopoly and someone will keep you hostage in prision until he/she wins 2 hours later 😅 I feel you 🙏🏻
@@DaWyssTVimagine playing monopoly where someone has a monopoly then buys one of each other color to prevent anyone else from gaining a winning board state…..oh wait, that’s a good idea.
Y'all ever help someone count their Mana. Like 7 Mana. So they cast an elesh norm grand cenobite, while your playing a weenies deck. You know what though? It brought the table together to try and get the norn off the table. And that was beautiful.
Opponents would always just "fail to find" when you flash in your Opposition Agent. Controlling the opponent during the search is required so that you can force them to actually "find" something.
I think how often you see a card really is an inherent part of the salt factor though. It's not just how oppressive, but also how ubiquitous. Being blown out by Tabernacle once a year (or decade) is kind of a unique experience, but seeing Dockside, One Ring, and Cyclonic Rift game after game after game is what induces the eye rolling.
Or losing to Craterhoof again and again vs. once a year.
I think the high salt score for Smothering Tithe isn't just about how strong it is, its just the play pattern in any commander game its played in, just a constant stream of "do you wanna pay the 2?" gets real annoying real quick
Underrated comment ^
100%. I don't even think people wouldn't even complain about Smothering Tithe if there was no option to pay 2.
I really don't understand why people complain about will you pay the 2. I don't see the issue
@@codysorenson4298 Its every draw, which just so happens to be one of the most common game actions.
It really slows the game down, especially when people try to play around it.
"Do I need the mana this turn?"
@@brandyourfan9244 I knew that it triggered on everyone draw. It's not game ending or keeping people from playing. I don't see the problem with this 4 mana enchantment. Will you pay the 2
You can float mana in response to storm cauldron and use it to remove it.
Came here to say the same thing. Same thing with Vorinclex, which I have done a few times lol
With Rhystic and Smothering tithe specifically, being asked do I pay the 1 or do I pay the 2 over and over again is what ups the salt score significantly. If they just got the effect I know they'd be stronger, but they'd annoy me less
Underrated comment ^
I just ask the table if they’d prefer being asked every trigger or to assume not paid unless said otherwise
@@yhuyyhSame
And opponent’s not paying for it when they could is extremely salt inducing
Could be fixed if your opponent gets to pay 3 mana in upkeep to shut it down for the turn.
For me i don't mind salty cards as much as i mind salty players. I don't mind that you have an LED, breach, brain freeze combo in your deck. I mind that you are losing your mind because you can't get your combo off. I don't mind you winning with an infinite scute swarm. I mind that two turns ago you guilt tripped me about me giving 11 commander damage in the air and so i didn't attack you. I don't care that you have a 30/30 grismold. I care that if i do much as not block with a token you rain hell down on the table.
I don't mind salty cards. I mind salty players
Yes!!!
12:44 I was in a game that Cyclonic Rift got overloaded five times. 😂
I was in a game like that.
Me and an opponent kept Cyclonic Rifting each other.
The other two players got to watch their boards almost every turn get blown back to hand.
Unfun... But memorable.
😂😂
That sounds like it was an epic game
@@BummerSlug Lol, it was a good 1v1.
I just felt bad that the other two players werent equipped to deal with it
The salt list is a mix of hypothetical salt: stasis, land destruction, and salt from seeing a really strong card a lot: rhystic study, one ring, smothering tithe
My personal salt card is Sol ring. Not because it is super powerful, but the one player getting a 2 mana head start in casual commander has a good chance to snowball, and its all about that one draw.
I would be relieved if non cedh decks ban sol ring.
Maybe opposition agent should say "when your opponent finishes seaching their library, you may choose to exile that card. If so, you may play it, if you dont exile it, then exile to top card of thir library. You may play that card instead." Or something
That way it turns it into a mind game, where maybe you will let them take it.
You would be suprised how often Emrakul can be used to support a player with an extra turn to take out the biggest threat.
A few friends and I learned how to play magic from another one of our friends about a year ago and our introduction to the game was essentially him playing more than half the cards on this list for a couple months straight
yep happened to me as well, and said friend always thought it was hilarious. Now that everyone else plays better he doesn't like the game too much anymore and miss the old days
@LucasRoth42 yeah my friend is the same way. He made a couple star decks to "show us real magic" or whatever and when everyone learned more and didn't want to play against those decks he just had the "run more removal" mindset. Which if every game is going to boil down to "I'm going to play stax and the game will be just me playing by myself UNLESS your deck is 40% counters and removal" in which case the guys playing counters & removal had themselves handicapped, having to use 10+ cards lots for removal and counters combined, in every deck.
Now he just doesn't bring his decks and plays the decks we've all made, and it's chilled out. But I don't see how more experienced players find it fun to just hardlock new players who want to learn the game.
@@YokedDrunkard Sounds like someone who's only interested in winning. Wanting to win I can get, but the people who *only* care about winning I'll never understand. At that point why even bother getting your friends involved in a game that you're never comfortable with losing?
This is exactly what online TCGs are for. Where you can run whatever degenerate strategy you like into a total stranger.
You're right about stealing turns but my personal loathing goes towards mill, I absolutely loathe mill decks they're way too mana efficient and losing because someone paid 10 mana for a mill combo that destroys my entire library absolutely sucks
I feel like if Dockside got released today, it would have the "if you cast it" on the card. It's not that the effect/cost is particularly unbalanced (it's definitely very strong, but not broken), it's the fact we can recur it. If it was the same cost and same effect, but on a sorcery that exiles itself, I don't think people would be nearly as mad at it. Or if it just had "if you cast it", like recent similar cards tend to have. Just shows how a very tiny detail can totally change how balanced a card is.
I’ve had Thassa’s Oracle in my Eligeth self mill deck since 2019. I’m not taking it out but I understand people hate it.
Like you said it’s how you use it. I don’t think it’s EVER won me a game.
When I heard you say "there's Overburden we're getting warmer" I knew exactly what you were looking for 😂
I play and have seen a couple of the stax permanents like the orbs and Vorinclex. This can be fine as long as everyone knows what kind of game they are getting themselves into. As soon as they hit the boards they become the main threat that almost everyone works towards removing. It becomes a game of how quickly can we remove that vs how long can that player keep it and themselves alive.
Mass land destruction is also fine as long as its used to secure a win or as protection. Its only annoying when its used incorrectly and stalls the game.
I have a few decks that mill, if you're building that, it's only smart to have lab man/thoracle win cons as safety nets
12:08 If someone has an actual Tabernacle, I say let them play it. 😂
I mean, you could float the mana while the storm cauldron is on the stack, though.
Lands are just a card type. Wizards used to understand this.
It’s called floating mana lol. Only way it does is if you’re not able to respond to the stack while cauldron is on it. Sounds like this is YOUR ptsd 😢
The One Ring - What's abusive about this card is how trivial it is to bypass the so-called "burden" counter drawback, granting you repeatable immunity to everything, as well as gratuitous card draw. Return to Dust is effective, but way overpriced and color-restricted at 2WW.
The One Ring is straight-up PAY-TO-WIN, not casual Commander AT ALL.
On the theme of winning a game when you would normally loose, i think winning (on upkeep os something) when at 10 poison could be an interesting (and somewhat flavorful) designspace.
The card you're thinking of is Rising Waters. I used it in my Jhoira artifacts until I removed it for the sake of more synergy. It's a mean friggin card. It oddly seems to draw more ire than winter orb. Maybe because it's an enchantment, therefore it tends to be harder to remove. I'm waiting until I feel like ordering a gilded foil Raffine, then when i do, I'm making esper Raffine stax, and it's just gonna be a conglomeration of the meanest most problematic stax pieces in the game and Raffine to power through the deck to get the ones i need based on the board state with a control package. People tend to hate stax, but i enjoy trying to solve the puzzle so to speak. I welcome every strategy as competition. I want everyone to bring their absolute best while also having fun playing whichever way they enjoy playing the game. So idc if i face stax, infect, control, superfriends, hate bears, reanimator, whatever. Bring it all on. I just wanna play the game. The only card I genuinely dislike is Iona, because it can literally shut a player out of the game entirely if they're playing a monocolored deck and that is just a bit too much. I'm fine with smokestack, but locking the mono-whatever player out by playing Iona is pretty terrible. But if i die to Toxrill or Tergrid, fair enough. 😆
Forget the Rising waters part, I think I was thinking of the wrong card. But the lock out spells are inherently mean regardless of which one it is. The decks running them can often get around it, while everyone else has to try to power through or just deal with the board, or they'll inevitably lose to the stax locks.
My biggest problem with Cyclonic Rift was it being used defensively to almost reset the game and make it take much longer than it needed to after the fun was gone.
I like games where people get to do their things, their decks get to show off why they were built, who's scariest shifts around, there's a couple big scary turns, and soon someone wins.
Like having soup, I guess, you get nice big spoonfulls, enjoy it, get a chance to taste all the things in it. But I don't like someone telling me I have to keep eating my soup after it's all gone and I'm forced to awkwardly scrape the cold bowl. Neither do I like someone announcing dinner is over while the soup is still so hot I have to blow on each spoonful a lot.
Personally I care more about bringing the game to a satisfying close on time rather than prolonging it to win or prevent losing.
farewell?
So right about the auras of certain cards driving them up in saltiness
Be me randomly having 2 dranith magistrates in my collection not realizing it stops players from playing their commanders.
ThOracle is a perfectly fine card. I used her in my Merfolk Blink Tribal Deck because she was, in fact, a Merfolk with an ETB. Now she's in my Raffy Taffy Draw deck.
ThOracle, when you played ThOracle and NOT Commander, isn't fun. When you intend to win with ThOracle, it gets boring. In order to interact with ThOracle you either need to counter it, stifle the trigger, shuffle their graveyard back in, cast a 'no one can lose/win' card, or kill them on the spot. When your deck is ThOracle, it's boring. When your deck is Thassa, Deep Dwelling, it's flavor.
Edit: The whole 'Dies to removal' argument for things like Drannith I will forever use as a counter argument to defend things like Tabernacle, or even 'Just counterspell' for instants and sorceries. Drannith was designed to counter Companions, only for the mechanic to be erratted and turning Drannith into 'haha, no commander/from exile/from grave/etc.' EVERYTHING can be interactive with in some form or another, but when the RC bans cards like Iona and not Drannith? Yes, shutting a single color off is cruel but if you REALLY shut off the mono-colored player then that's entirely on you, Drannith goes against the spirit of the format; the Commander.
Dockside is definitely the most annoying card. It's not that it makes a ton of treasures for the person that cast it, it's that the entire game then becomes "can I copy Dockside", or "can I recur Dockside", "can I flicker Dockside". The entire game just becomes about Dockside. I don't know about banning it, but it's basically the same effect as The One Ring, the whole game starts becoming about The One Ring.
Those are the exact same reasons why Primeval Titan was banned.
an yet it's i 328,000 decks on edhrec. so despite that fact everyone still loves to play it.
And yet Prime time is still on the banlist while dockside is allowed to run rampant across the format. This why I've lost all hope in the RC. They either need to have both banned or unban prime time this is getting ridiculous.
I’m gonna play cards that do things, I am playing satya and dockside is one of my favorite cards to copy every combat 💀 gotta be able to pay all the taxes on study, tithe etc
And I think @@seankirkman5107shows that some people just enjoy those cards but to others it's just an arms race.
It's not 0 life, but Near-Death Experience says you win if you have 1 life on your upkeep, so I mean a flash enabler and a way to pay any amount of life at instant speed, that could be similar to thoracle, albeit at 5 mana with 3 white pips and on upkeep
7 mins in...
1. Stasis isn't seen as much, Winter Orb can be tapped to not effect its controller.
2. Thassa's Oracle came out in Jan of 2020, so people didn't have time when the poll came out (Aprilish each year) to play it (Covid).
3. Vorinclex Was one of 2 legendary creatures in my first deck and I sometimes played him instead. Now he has his own deck. Don't talk smack about Cuddles, he's awesome!
12:32 def good to overload CycRift on your opponents endstep when there are multiple stax pieces in play. Just bounce everything so you can untap and win without anything in the way.
An example for cyc rift into win would be shaman of the old ways(i think that was the name), who effectively taps to kill every player without creatures(aka biorythm). I have not seen this before but its the first thing coming to mind, that said any one sided boardwipe can do that but cycrift at instantspeed is probably the best one.
Minor thing, there's one more black sorcery that exiles itself and you gain control of an opponent's turn. Worst fears I think is the name
That's why I play Pendrell Mists in my Bruvac deck. Sure, I have to pay mana for it, but the Pendrell effect is great lol
So what we learned is that the issue isn’t the cards but people. Well played lmao.
absolutely. people are the problem.
We only have one person with dockside extortionist in our playgroup and it never seems to get too out of control. The only time I remeber it winning the game was when I reanimated it with Sheoldred scriptures 😆 but there was more too that win then just dockside
I run Thassa's Oracle in a merfolk tribal deck. The only times I've ever won with it was versus mill decks, which I think is totally fair. I don't run anything specifically to combo with it.
2 things 1: you can float 3 mana while the storm cauldron is on the stack and remove it for no penalty. 2: you are entirely off about dockside and smothering tithe, the mana thise give allows the stupid plays, dont hate emrakul hate a turn 3 emrakul because of dockside and sol ring.
does the commander format allow for stupid plays ever?
@@edhdeckbuilding i just think that the speed is what generates salt, nobody complains about a turn 10 omniscience but if you get it turn 3 then people hate your deck. So the problem isnt with most of those cards its about how early people can play them and how consistently they are able to with tutors and ramp. But maybe your playgroups differ in that way, nobody in my group is salty about MLD or stasis locks, but we all hate smothering tithe dockside and rhystic study. I havent played in too many other groups just my normal LGS of like 30-40 people so maybe we are more spikey? Or more casual?
All in all, despite those cards being infuriating when going up against, it's all par for the course. You must craft your decks in such a way you can answer to almost anything.
chains of mephistopheles. i saw this card only once, but it was the first time i showed up to play magic in a city i just moved to. the guy locked us all out of playing the game on his turn 3 which was our turn 2 since he went first. realistically, the people i play with now would never include this card, but that was my worst experience playing magic and that was already 7 years ago.
Worst Fears seems to be the most fitting card name ever!
I really love my infernal darkness for making so much adult people cry, what a card!!!~♡
Storm Cauldron in my Ob Nix landfall deck. No shame. Hard enough to go aggro in edh, let alone monolith. So gotta do what i gotta do. Depends on what tier decks we want to see.
I think basic island should be #1
The Monolith is indestructible, I can see why folks would be salty about that, even with efficient removal
Darksteel monolith is such an outlier lol
I think it’s not just play more removal but only use your removal on game ending threats/ locks to your game
The more I watch the more I think it is a matter of how they are being used. If I'm playing a similar landfall deck sunder is going to give me more triggers, and that just makes sense 😆
I don’t play most of these, but I also wouldn’t hate seeing any played against me. As long as there is a plan, I’m ok with it. Don’t Armageddon and then let the game draw out for 20 turns, but if you are using it in an attempt to close out the game, I don’t mind it played against me.
I also agree that a lot of the cards have a bad rep based on the other stuff being played with it. It’s tough for me to hate any singular magic card lol
Emrakul, the Promised End also steals your controls your opponents turns.
Opinion from an amateur game designer (been at it for a few years): I feel Dockside might be more fair if it was formatted like this:
"When ~ enters, if it was cast from your hand, create a tapped Treasure token for each opponent you have who controls an artifact or enchantment."
This would still net between 3-4 treasure most of the time, it would still be great. It just wouldn't be as back breaking and as easily abusable as it is.
Dockside has so many issues, it's low cost, it's repeatable effect, the flavor fail of the fact you can't pay mana to counter it's ability,
Some of those nerfs seem like a good idea. But all of them together seems like too much. Get rid of one of those 3 nerfs and keep the other 2.
@martaneon5310 when I made a rule zero for dockside I erratted it to "make a number of treasure tokens equal to or less than the turn number plus number of players" my play group would sometimes do 3 5 or 6 player edh games if there were not enough tables so the player count part also mattered.
A lot of the salty cards aren't actually bad. The issue is that people build decks that don't actually win.
If somebody blows up/locks down the lands to win, nobody gets mad. If somebody blows up/locks down the lands to make sure nobody wins, everybody gets mad.
Oppo Agent is just a flawed card, because even if you take out the first line, opponents can just "fail to find." So you've essentially played a Stranglehold-esque creature, which is actually fair. But there's no real way to make the stealing opponent's cards work fairly without changing either the "search" or "control" effect.
Storm cauldron : float your mana to destroy it while its still on the stack
For the blue enchantment that's like winter orb, do you mean "stasis" or a different one?
the one i pointed out in the video. rising waters.
On one side “really guys, just play more Enchantment removal” but “taking my turn is nasty, don’t do it”… I love our community so much lmao. “You’re opinion is wrong, I’m right” lmao!!! Ummm actually, mind slaver is not bad, play trickbind or stifle, ruined halo, leyline of sactinty, or many other things. If one card can ruin your game, I would recommend go fish as a hobby instead of mtg.
The theme here is “you won’t let me do what I want”. That is the most entertaining part of all this. If I don’t stop you from doing what you want, then I can’t do what I want. In one game only one person will do their thing and three will not. I’m doing what I need to stop your thing. That is what gives me a better chance to do mine. Mind slaver and opp agent seem like a good start to that. Armageddon needs to be built around but seems simple enough, stasis can work if I was better too (I’m not good enough for it).
As a community we need to stop crying and play better. If your budget won’t allow you a chance, find a better matched group. It is really that simple.
Let's see how many of these my pod plays: Thassa's Oracle...yep(side not Forgotten Creation did the same thing); Armegeddon...yep; Cyclonic Rift...yes; Drannith Magistrate...yep, Rhystic Study...yep; Fierce Guardianhip...yep; Smothering Tithe...yep; The One RIng...yep; Opposition Agent...yep; Darksteel Monolith...yep; Blightsteel Colossus...yep; Demonic Consultation...yep; Orcish Bowmasters...yep; Jin-Gitaxis, Progress Tyrant...yep; Teferi, Time Raveler...yep; Elesh Norn, Mother of Machines...yep; Craterhoof Behemoth...yep; Ad Nauseeam...yep; shit we suck.
19:22 THIS! This is the issue, I had to plead for months for my EDH group to play more removal, becase noone ran a single single target removal spell, no Naturalise, no Krossan Grip, no feed the swarm. because why wate a card slot in removing 1 thing when you can pay more mana for a board wipe? because you don't even get to cast the board wipe. They just want to play ther cool stuff and not be interrupted in their turn and thus, they don't run interaction, it's crazy. I don't get how you can hate The Oozolith, not a single n+red player besides me run Vandalblast or gleeful demolition, so how do you expect to deal with that kind of threats?
To answer the question, Ulamog, the Defiler is the card i absolutely hate to see played right now. Probably not a popular choice but for me i just hate it. That card just ruins games for whoever it is played on and that in turn ruins it for me.
For me i feel like the general player in edh have no back bones they complain about everything, i had a guy at my LGS that left in the middle of a game cause my friend field of ruin his gaea's cradle.
Feel like it wasn't like that at the beginning of edh but now that it such a popular format it make games unfun. The moment you start to cast removal people complain. My playgroup is "old" and we had some of the most fun games with land destruction or stax, at the end we are playing to be together and have a good time.
A couple of thoughts. 1. I am glad we don't vote on what gets banned because a lot of that list is ridiculous. And 2. All of the cards that immediately make you the arch enemy are self correcting. It likely won't take many games of 3 v 1 to convince the vast majority of people to change their deck.
And yeah it is pretty clear that a lot of people have just never been wrecked by a storm cauldron, tabernacle and a variety of things that are for more heinous than some of the cards frequently griped about.
I don't know why Sarulf, Realm Eater is not up here. I call him "I am Legend" cuz he usually the only nonland out and in my experience people just stop playing things and wait to die. He is simply not fun at all.
ThOracle wins are too hard to interact with. I can definitely see the case for banning it.
A friend of mine plays that vorinclex as his commander and it is devastating.
My most hated card is Toxrill, particularly as a commander. He just makes the game a slog.
*slug
Just looking at thumbnail, me and my group play all of these exept oracle😂 we aint scared of no ghosts
I disagree that Winter Orb slows down the game, and yes, I wish we would see it more. What slows down the game is when everyone sitting there with one mana takes 5 minutes to do their turn when all they do is go, "Well um, gee I don't know... What can O do?." Untap your land and pass.
My ognis haste/sac tribal deck is like 80% creatures got humility played vs it... found out my deck can shift to go wide tokens/sac easily, just player removed them!
And utility lands are too abundant now, blow em up.
Ayy i have a Hokori deck lol. He's just a silly lil guy, I didn't realize he was so disliked😢
I don’t really care about thassas oracle as long as the way you get to no cards in deck is fun. If you’re drawing your whole way through or slowly milling yourself then it’s chill if slightly annoying.
I bet no one talks about erayo, chancellor of the annex, or nullstone gargoyle.
demo never got his beast within countered when trying to destroy winter orb and it shows
orb can also come out while everyones tapped out on turn 5 or 6, and the game slows to a crawl
you're in the scenario where 3 players are desperately trying to get it off of the field. how many counterspells do they have? oh yeah and their lands are also tapped.
Surely every game has a card that can be identified as having won someone the game. Does this mean Colossal Dreadmaw should be banned?
The one ring can be abused via flicker.
The thing with stasis vs winter orb is that winter orb is a far cheaper card. Youre never ever seeing stasis outside of proxies in cedh.
it's a $5 card. not sure what you mean here.
@@edhdeckbuilding Honestly I forgot how much stasis got reprinted.
I think you’re defending against it wrong whenever it comes down in response tap your mana. Wait for it to resolve with floating manner and then use your beast within there now you didn’t lose anything.
Is urza fine in the 99?
I absolutely detest people taking my stuff. Or my turn. I usually just scoop in response. Un-fun in my opinion.
These cards are at the top of the salt list because they are not needed in the format, boring to play against, and typically used inappropriately. Dockside sucks to see come down but I don't think it belongs on the list. Ultimately, seeing new and interesting decks use the same old shit that every other deck uses makes that old shit even more boring.
New BAN list aquired
Could you do a video exploring the tribal decks out there and ‘for now’ crown the strongest tribe with the saltiest support?
It's probably gonna be humans for saltiest since they have so many of the stax and tax guys in their tribe.
Mass land destruction should not be played, neither should mass ramp spells. So many people abuse the fact that noone can punish their mass ramp...
With no shame i will cast cyclonic rift and then pull it from the graveyard and cast it again 😂
I would mucj rather see tabernacle than cyclonic rift, bit that might just be my stores meta
Bro those RC dorks could have banned all this isht. But they hit Crypt instead
completely arbitrary.
I like the Professor's take on it, they saw the problem with CEDH/EDH was fast mana was causing explosive turns, so they killed the top fast mana rocks when really, they could have killed just one and seen how it played out.
Instead, it feels a bit like they threw the baby out with the bathwater.
Dockside is, IMO, the only card they banned that just doesn't make sense, it's one of the few combo enablers in red, and there is no possible alternative.
Tap three lands, they return to hand, play out 2 lands, krosan grip. There i just made you better at magic AND commented on your youtube video
Honestly I don't think the mindslaver effects are that bad, actual mindslaver you basically have to take your whole turn off to control one person in a four player game, same with emurakul, you can play like an idiot and make some stupid decisions for them but they're not always that worse off. You can use their stuff to attack the other two opponents if you want to get everyone mad at you but it dosen't usually win you the game... It's better as a solution to the arch enemy problem most of the time.
Just play removal is a bad argument just saying, there are a lot of games I’ve played where a must remove card doesn’t get removed because sometimes nobody draws removal
likely you're not drawing removal because you don't have enough in your deck is my argument.
Pretty sure I bought a copy of cruel entertainment because of your series way back 😂 oops
I see the halve of my main decks here😅
Sea salt
For me the main issue is be honest about the power level of the deck you are playing. If your deck can win on turn 4 or 5 be honest. Going to the local LGS and stomping new players into the ground is not good for long term growth of your local comander community.
Dockside is an example of a card that's way too pushed for a colour shifted card. I'm all for colour shifting of mechanics, but a colour shifted card shouldn't be significantly better or more efficient at doing the thing than the "traditional" colour that does that thing. Dockside is way more explosively efficient as ramp than the vast majority of green ramp. If the text on dockside extortionist read that for example X is the number of opponents, or X is half the number of artifacts and enchantments your opponents control rounded up, IMO it would be much more tolerable across the board.
dockside is a ritual not ramp, rituals are red or black, although printing a ritual on a creature was definitely a mistake since it's so easy to retrigger
Expropriate is fair and balanced magic
It depence how they play the rift, if they keep returning it from their graveyard and draging out the game, I wont enjoy it, but castingen it ones wont bother me a bit. Worst card I ever played against is one I never hear in these videos Contamination, when that player is in a sacrifice theme, it really sucks, specially because black has almost no enchantment removal
A little salt is the spice of life. I play a Mogis deck that uses Jokulhaups as a victory condition & has other resource denial in the deck. OG Vorinclex is in my Goreclaw deck & my Chulane deck uses Overburden & Mana Breach. The group I plays with either deals with the problem or, when I play my Mogis deck, I accept the fact that I am Archenemy.
I despise Mindslaver.
I got emrakuled in the command zone on turn 4 after cheating out ugind nexus and they toxic deluged me only to spare me so they could remove my permanents with ulamog