Brake Drum Forge: PROS and CONS
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- Опубликовано: 30 ноя 2018
- Have you given thought to making a forge out a break drum? In this video I discuss the pros and cons of a brake drum forge. Hopefully this will be food for thought while you are considering a building a brake drum forge.
COMMENT: Have you used a brake drum blacksmith forge? What are your thoughts on using a brake drum forge? Would you like to see a video on types of blacksmith forges?
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I am a full time blacksmith and have been using a brake drum forge for over 20 years as my traveling forge at rendezvous and reenactments. It works as good if not better than my "store bought" fire pot. I advise others to stay away from rotors as firepots as I find most too shallow. But also don't use a semi drum either. The one you had looks like a 1 ton or maybe 3/4 ton drum. Way too big. Find a smaller width but deep drum. Weld or bolt a pipe on the bottom in your favorite tuyere/ash dump style. Put a drain grate in the bottom. From Menards or Mcmaster-Carr. Get some castable refractory from Menards (yes the kind others say won't work) and make a cone shape from the top lip to the edge of the drain grate. This covers the lug bolt holes. Make sure you can get the grate out as you will need to replace it every so often. Depending on how much forge welding you do. This covers the lug bolt holes.This makes a fuel efficient and cost effective fire pot.
I built mine about a year ago using almost this exact setup. Wound up using a cement/sand/cat litter mix as refractory.
I built a brake drum forge,but I researched it first and welded up a small firepot and bolted it on the bottom.Far more efficient design.I can get to welding temps with Kingsford charcoal and a hair dryer no problem.
Thank you so much for posting this video, it is honestly a blessing and also a confirmation from the LORD! Very timely.
very helpful iv been interested in knife making since i was about 15 years old finally able to start working on my forge build , i have a few hammers and a pair of tongs a 256lbs peter wright anvil from 1889 in great shape cant wait to get started thanks for the information. very helpful
Thanks Roy for clearing up a misconception that I had. I thought that the drum would have been better than the rotor. Fortunately I have both. I wanted to make a traveling forge of sorts. For demos and fairs alike. Without a lot of money vested.
I have a brake drum forge and you hit every issue I have. I had no idea of the issues til I saw the video. Thank you for the pointers to correct the issues. Have a good day
Wish I waited until now to build my forge so I would have found this video first :( That brake drum eats charcoal like Jabba the Hutt at a Vegas buffet! Time to buy some refractory cement and put him on a diet.
BTW love your videos. Time for a long overdue sub!
I found a semi truck brake drum on the side of the interstate one day and I always thought that it might be a good start for me into blacksmithing to make myself a good forge out of. I can see now that it might be considered much to big for that.
Could you make the fire pot more shallow using refractory material (PofP and sand)? That way, you would be able to keep your larger surface area and still use less fuel.
Excellent information. I started out with the brake drum forge and have noticed all of the said problems that Roy has mentioned. I can fabricate a new one, but time is always a factor. I like the idea of putting fire bricks inside or clay i might give that a shot.
Thank you for this.
I'm building my first forge and this video has prevented some mistakes.
Thanks again for your great info, keep up the good work God Bless you and your family and have a great Christmas....
Hello Roy.
Thanks for all the great videos you and Jess put out. I started with a brake brum forge it worked i forged welded in it and heated up big peices of steel. But you absolutely right it likes to eat coal or coke. So i built my own fire pot and it works way better.
Thanks for the information. I am just starting on a budget, this was most informative.
Very interesting information. I was blessed that my cousins sent me my grandfathers forge from Saskatchewan. It is a Canadian Forge and Blower Co made in Montreal. My research showed the company was only in Montreal from about 1905 to 1915 when it moved to New Hamburg now Kitchener Ontario so it is over 100 years old. : )
My name is David Forge I am from Moose Jaw Saskatchewan now living in Califonia
I have a breakdrum forge, filled it up with fine gravel to get the slopes. Some coal dust settles in between the stones but it works just fine. I guess you could throw in some dirt in the mix just to make sure the coal don't settle in between the gravel. As for heat control; it has a tendency to melt the thinner pieces I heat if(when) I don't pay attention.
Thanks so much for the Info. Now I know what to look out for!
Great info. I will be probably using some of your suggestions to improve my drum brake forge; It sinks in a parts washer tank.
Great video Roy. Actually was going to make one out of a brake drum and it’s bigger than that one. I think now I will just build a fire pot from pieces cut from plate steel.
Thanks for the great advice.
Nice timing of the video I just built a brake rotor forge. So glade I did it use a drum.
I build my forge myself a year ago. It is constructed from a piece of U shaped construction beam (8mm thickness). I got some measurement of Internet height, with and most important depth. I cut of the U shaped beam in the right dimensions and welded up the sides. Welded on a 2 inch wide pipe and use a bouncy castle blower as an air supply. Air supply was a problem so I created some valve system to diminish the airflow. Since than no more struggles. Nice subject thanks for sharing Roy.
Awesome informational educational video experience Y'alls
Glad you enjoyed God bless!
I built one used a push mower deck and put the drum/rotor in the center . Had 2 inch pipe for the air supply, I had a 7 inch cast iron drain grate to keep the kernels from falling through since I was using feed corn. Figured out that I had to much air and the grate was deflecting the air flow out to the sides. So reduced the opening down quite a bit and figured out feed corn doesn't work real great so I bought coal from my guild and will try it today.
i do not have a forge but am looking to build one and was looking for ideas thanks for the info
Great info. Almost makes me want to build a coal forge. I'll wait until quad state to use one with proper supervision and we shall see.😁 ⚒On!
Hi Roy. Thanks for this video. It has been an eye opener.! I am using a brake drum forge with charcoal and am getting frustrated with results. I was of the impression the fuel bed was not deep enough I would find the charcoal burn out between the air blast holes and the workpiece tending to oxidise it. Any advice would be great. Thanks again. Woody.
Mine's kind of a combination of a Wilcox-style and a dirtbox forge. So far, my biggest struggle seems to be with air flow. I'm currently using a heat gun as a blower, which has three settings: off, on hot, and on cold. I haven't made a gate for it yet, but I'm looking into getting something that allows for better control natively. I've gotten better about not burning my steel, but that's mainly because I've been paying better attention, or at least keep checking my steel. As a result, I don't think I've gotten to forge welding temps.
I'm just getting into it as a hobby, but I will say I have a lawn mower forge from my mentor, a lawnmower forge I built with a 15" brake disc rotor, and a 19" brake drum forge with 2 sides cut out and set into a 36" plate of mild steel as a feed table. For small stock and smaller projects, the 2 lawn mower forges are great, but the drum forge is great when I'm heating multiple 6lb hammer billets and large knives for shaping. I may also be lacking in Fire control as you noted, but where I am at now, there are times I feel the larger firepot on the big drum gives me more heat faster making the work easier, but as stated it uses an equal amount of fuel for the amount of heat put off. AKA, it uses more fuel.
Thank you.
I had a brake drum forge, i made it myself and it was garbage. It never worked properly, ate my charcoal like a hungry termite on wood and had trouble heating the steel. I made a new forge based on DF in the shop fire pot design. It works great. Good info Roy, wish i knew this years ago, i could have saved myself a lot of grief.
I use a brake drum forge. Drum came off my f350. I made a sloped liner in the smaller part out of sand, cat litter, and plaster of paris. I now have much better fire control. Heading to Lowe's today to pick up a speed controler as i use a hair dryer as my blower. And even on low it will make flames shoot 2 feet out of the forge. I also cut a large notch in the side so i can get stock in the fire better. Thinking about cutting the brake surfaces out completely and put the thing in the end of a 55 gallon drum. Getting ideas from yamez. I like boys how his forge is setup and would work better than having to drag my entire smithy outside.
I've read that cheap clay kitty litter can be ground to powder and wetted to make a reasonable fire clay for a forge.
I have a car rim forge. I bank the sides with wood ash to create a channel to build the fire in. It works pretty good, but I need to repack the sides. I busted it all loose planning on building a new forge which I made out of a smaller tank.
Great info for me considering I'm wanting to make a new coal forge. I'll take all the help i can get but i have limited tools and i dont have a welder.
I am making a forge out of an old chicken feeder and it is flat so thanks for the video I really enjoyed it and I am sure that it will help me.
Good Video Buddy!
DF in the shop has a few videos on "fixing" a brake drum forge, similar suggestions you brought up, although he was welding in cut plate. I'm currently using a propane furnace, but have both kinds of brakes pieces. I was considering packing one with cut fire brick to gain the shape you mentioned, as you demonstrated they worked so well on your fire brick forge. Also, Chandler Dickenson has a video where he relined his forge, same idea, he just made a pyramid like shape.
I never thought to use clay. Thanks Roy!
I have a brake rotor forge I built last summer. I made a blower out of the guts of an old hair dryer. I use a ball valve to control air flow. While not that convenient it gets the job done. It gets hot enough to melt iron if I want to, which sometimes is a problem if I get too many things going on. At any rate, it was a nice inexpensive option for me as I had just replaced the brake rotors on my truck and I didn't want to put too much money into this until my skill level comes up higher.
I welded in a square pyramid into a the 2nd better drum with a little fire cement onto a good size and thickness square sheet of steel and a chimney it works great. A lot better than a normal break drum.
PS. thanks for your vids thay are helpful
I use a rotor in my river forge to contain the coal more and it works great. The only thing I would change is to cut a channel in the rotor so I can get longer material in at a straighter angle.
Could you please do a video about using your forge from lightning and controlling your flame and that kind of thing. Wanting to start up as a hobby and can’t find that many videos like that. Thanks for the videos.
I have just started putting a brake rotor forge together. I was wanting the drum but you clearly talked me out of that! And i thank you for that! I'm thinking of a hand crank forge fan instead of a hair dryer. The one on Amazon for $35. Is that fan a decent fan or should it go with the hair dryer for now?! I'm just doing this as a hobby! Im on medical disability do to cancer but my treatments have it in check! Let me know what you think! Thanks and God bless! I also subscribed today!
stage forge/Jon the $35 forge blower is not the best, I bought a $110 electric one and it’s already dying on me. Hair dryer is more reliable but a large fan with piping would be more efficient
I use a side blast forge with a water cooled Tue, I did start with a bottom blast forge but as they ain't used much in the UK I think I made my fire pot to big as it just ate coal and the clinker remove was a nightmare, breaking the fire up and restarting every 2 hours, it's so much better/easier now but I must say it does take awhile to relearn how to use the fire in a side blast forge
I use a brake rotor fire pot. I used some leftover green cast refractory from my gas forge build to slope the sides into more of a rivet forge shape. Works great, even added a clinker breaker to my tuyere. Love the videos Roy.
Any suggestions on how to improve a rivet forge?
I sm using a brake rotor forge that is sitting inside a old little camping grill to contain it with a hair dryer as my air source but only have 2 speeds with the hair dryer what should i use besides that so i can control the air flow better
Yep I have a brake rotor forge with a fart fan supplying air with a dimmer switch to control the air flow and I'm happy with it right but, I have done a lot of fiddling with it to get what I want.
i am glad i watched this video and didnt go out hunting for one of those big brake drums. brake disks or rotors as you call them are easier to get hold of especially if your fitting new brakes to your car.
I use of a drum from an electric trailer, which has a thick bottom and thin sides. This works well. A hood is needed. A 1/4th oil drum might work. So does an inverted lawnmower hood.
Thanks for keeping me from making an enormous mistake. The drums I have are from an 18 wheeler.
Let me start by saying that I am a Hobbyist Smith. My forge is made up of two School Bus brake drums.I cut a piece of 1/4 inch plate to fit down in one of them and welded legs onto it so that it moved the floor up a good bit. then I have three fire bricks layed around the outer edge to lower down the volume. My tuyere is made from fence post and top rail from a chainlink fence with the galvanizing removed. I started out using Lump charcoal and homemade charcoal but it takes tons of charcoal to do anything. I went to Tractor supply and bought up a bunch of Anthracite Nut coal and it lasts much better. The othe Brake drum sits on top form a bit of an oven. I have a large section removed on the front and in the back I have cut a small opening for passing long bars through. This setup has worked decently for some years now. The fire bricks have broken up over time and I keep rearranging them. The whole thing sits on an assembly made from some black pipe and a motorcycle tire rim which is the same diameter as the brake drum. The best part of the whole thing is that almost every part of it was scrounged and I have less than $50 in the making of the forge. I have recently bought some black pipe fittings to remake the tuyere and now after watching your video I think I will get some fire clay and build up the sides to get some sloping going on. I like the way you show in your videos how using what you have on hand and some ingenuity almost anything is possible.
I am going to build a brake drum forge .I have been doing a lot of research and I have found a resources for fire concrete and fire brick and I was going to make afire pot out of these item to make my fire pot to make my brake drum forge . also studying to make my on wood coke out of hard wood in my area because good cool is hard to find my area.
I built my very first forge out of a half sized cinder block set on the ground with a pipe shoved in the dirt below it and a hollow dug to let the air hit the charcoal and used the blow gun for my compressor for air, needles to say, it worked once. Next came an old dutch over with holes drilled in the center and set it over a metal trashcan with a pipe going in the bottom, worked better but took MASSIVE amounts of charcoal to run and quickly burned out. Then I moved into a brake drum forge using 2 in pipe for the dump and tyre, ended up placing the brake drum into a 15 in car rim and it worked better but still ate up coal. I actually went through 50 lbs in one 90min session bc I didn't realize you could wet the coal and build the fire the way it's needed, or that the air wasn't supposed to be full blast the entire time. I ended up cutting some fire brick to create the inverted pyramid shape and back filled with wood ash and it worked much better but still not quite what I wanted, SOOOO I am building a more movable forge using a shop tool cart from harbor Frieght and using 1/4 plate for the top around the fire pot and the fire pot is being built out of some 1in plate scavenged from several old dozer blades to make a pot nearly identical to yours. The air will be from a bouncy house blower with an air gate valve like DF built.
Used your video as a guide Used a car's break dis for the pot . Helium party tank for the body put pipe legs on it . line it with clay. Lump charcoal for fuel. Size to the size of a quarter and air bed blower. You can melt steel in the thing . Used the clay to raised the side up higher to get good heat. Fastestt melt i got was less than a minute on a a quarter inch piece of steel.
Made with out a welder. Spent more on one can of grill spray paint( $8) than than any thing else. Fule is $8 a bag and i can get 3-5, 4 hour run out of it. 1/2- 2 pound of charcoal dust in some bags .
I'm been trying to get stuff to build my home forge for about 3 weeks now. Still a little lost .
If I was to weld some 1/4" plates in the shape as your professional forge there what would the dementions be ?
Like the measurements from the square at the bottom to the square from the top , and then how deep from top to bottom.
Thanks .
I have a brake drum forge that I built myself. It has worked great but does eat up a lot of coal. However it has a much smaller brake drum so it's not as bad as it could be. My biggest problem is that the brake drum isnt deep enough which really makes it hard to heat areas of the steel that isnt close to the end of the steel. Ran into that problem a lot when I was forging my first set of tongs.
That brake rotor (or as we call them a disc) is a drum as well it allows you to have brake shoes for the Hand/Ebrake and pads for braking.
I started with a brake rotor and a bellows made from plywood and a tonneau cover.
Great info! What are the measurements of your fire pot? Widths & depth. 👍🏼👍🏼
6"deep 6"wide 8" long
Just so happens I’m literally in the middle of changing my brakes on my car and already have new brake rotors here, have for a week or so and so I have these old ones left over so it’s actually perfect for me😊
i am going to try to build one out of 18 wheeler break drum thinking of cuting the highth to about 2 1/2 inches to about three inches
I used a coal truck brake drum, then dropped a brake rotor in it. Then cut the drum down and a square opening in it. The drum is the base and backboard, the rotors the fir pot. I used a heat shield off a catalytic converter inside the rotor as the grate or screen.
Also I'm thinking of welding a truck drum on my rotor and making a squared 8insert to place in it for smaller pieces then pack the space between the 2 drums with crumbled fire brick
I have two brake drum forges from a half ton and three quarter ton pickups, they work fine. But I see how I could improve them.
I'm about to rebuild my brake drum forge but i may go ahead and buy the kit from blacksmith's depot since I'll be gone all summer
I built a break drum forge, and I am burning anthracite. I can hear metal and forge, but I can't weld. My drum is only about 3 inches deap. My thought is I'm getting to much air to my metal.
Your thoughts?
Dear Roy, I was just going though the motions of choosing a method of construction for my own home made forge and I was working along the lines that if small was good, big was even better. I was going to look for a truck brake drum. Big mistake avoided. I think instead I will get some 10mm plate, heat it to red hot and bash it into the curved shape of the inside sides of your forge. The comment of the coke gradually making its own way towards the centre of the fire would pay dividends in time fiddling with the fire. Thank you very, very much. Cheers.
Your information was helpful and the tip about using a brake rotor instead of a brake drum made a lot of sense. Having said that, you could have made this video in 5 minutes instead of 10:29. Too wordy but I still hit "like" Thanks for the info.
I have a large break drum forge and I put some fire bricks in it for making it more economical to use.
I use a Dutch oven with stove cement to fill in & slope the sides down to the bottom. It works!
just in the process of starting up and i work in an auto-shop so rotors are basically free scrap for me. what sort of clay (if type matters) would you recommend for filling in the corners?
Use a 50/50 mixture of Plaster of Paris and play sand, instead. It will eventually crack, but not nearly as fast as clay.
I use a brake rotor forge, but all I had available was the old front rotor off my truck, so it doesn't have the parking brake drum that yours has. It's a pain in the butt because it's too shallow, so I really have to keep the coke mounded up.
I guess it still beats the dirt box I was using before that which weighed about 150 lbs. I had to move that from the garage to the driveway every time I used it.
Love your pointer .. little hand ... lol
It was a fun little build for sure :-) also have a video on it here on RUclips.God bless you and thank you for taking the time to watch!
Roy, I am a 78 year old disabled Vietnam Vet. I would like try my hand at blacksmithing. I have access to horseshoes, angle iron and other pieces of scrap, but no forge, anvil or tools. What would you recommend to get started? Thanks & God Bless. I certainly do enjoy your channel!
Can’t get over the hand!!! 😆
Talk to the hand
This video is very helpful. I have a much larger drum than the large one you showed. I now know how not to do it.
Would refractory cement work instead of clay? Or normal Portland cement?
Looking to build my own coal forge. I have welding and fabrication skills, however, as your an experienced blacksmith I was looking to build a portable forge based around the construction of your forge pot in this video. Can you provide material thickness and dimensions of your fire pot please if that isn't any problems for you. Appreciate your feedback. As i want to make my own tools, tongues, hammers, axes swords and decorative pieces and sculptures. Therefore one forge or forges to accommodate the majority of situations would be brilliant as i am on a budget of zero and literally salvaging everything and all the steel from the front of peoples houses they throw out.
Even creating my own coke from burning wood. Needs must. I don't have an income to buy anything. All my energy is into getting this up and running.
I've been working out of a brake rotor for about a year and a half. And from experience I can say that your going to have trouble heaping coal on top for working bigger stuff, my shop's floor is covered in coal and coke that falls off the sides of the forge. Also I haven't for the life of me been able to make a forge weld stick, and I know that's probably user error but I like to blame my forge, lol
Where’d the hand pointer come from though? 🤔 I want one.
Hey Roy what are the Rocks that your using I know you have too use coal in the middle but in your vid it looks like piled rock all around the outside of yours is that your coal or diff rock?
That's blacksmithing coke. It burns very clean, but it requires constant air flow to stay lit. Also it doesn't clump and pack like coal, so you can't form a "cave" like you can with coal. It's the only fuel available in my area, so that's what I use. I buy it in 40lb bags from a farrier supply.
What if i want to make bigger things?
well I finnaly tried to harden that cold cut I tried to make, heated it to almost yellow and threw it in a bucket of water that was from the outside when it was below freazing, I warped the fricken tip of it, and had to carefully beat it back straight and tried to etch metal with it it did a bit of damage to it but not enough before the tip needed reground, guess its going to be a drift maybe now or a wood chisel will post and ask how I can improve next time.
oh and thanks for the advice on making a forge possibly and the good tips to improve if you are using a brake drum forge to slope the sides and make it more ecconomical
A few things here I havw to tell you, buddy. I dunno how much knowledge you've gathered so far but it sound's like you've just started so I'll also mention basic things. ^^
First off - not every steel can be hardened. Most steels you can find 'in the wild' like rebar, home depot steel stuff and other things can't be hardened for example. In order to become hard, steel needs to have a certain amount of carbon in it. (usually 0.4 - 1%, roughly.)
Depending on the steel, the quench material (mostly oil or water) differs and also the quench temperature. If you're unsure of your steel always try oil first. It cools the steel a bit slower than water and therefore is a bit more forgiving.
The color of your steel when quenching should be cherry-red-ish. Yellow is too hot.
To test if your hardening was successful, try scratching the piece with a metal file. If it glides over the surface like it does when you try to file glas, you did it!
You can prevent bending when quenching with a few tricks. First off, normalizing your workpiece is always a good idea. To do this, heat it up to somewhere between red and yellow and then place it aside and let it cool off in the air. Repeat 2 - 3 times. This will remove some of the internal stresses in the workpiece you've created by forging it.
If you've got any further questoins, feel free to ask! Have a nice evening. ^^
right but I was asking roy, and I know not every steel will harden, this could be mild steel that I made it with, which I might well be, reason I did it with water was it cools the fastest and could make the tightest matrix, but also the most chance of it shattering.
I will try the file I used a grinder to sharpen it carefully and put somewhat of an edge on it.
@@manga12 Sorry man, I didn't want to blame you or anything for using water n stuff. I was just trying to help you, since you seemed to have just started with blacksmithing. D:
It’s something I am dabbling in I don’t even have a forge at home all the heats were done with a cutting torch I wanted to try to make it as hard as I could to give it the best chance to be able to etch steel so it could be snapped off
Plough disc rotor but building a solid steel forge with a 6 inch blower
its what i built for my brake forge i use charcoal cause its what i have on hand im just struggling to get it bright yellow i use a shopvac for my air any tips ? and is it possible to get your email plz
I would love to show you my giant homemade forge but I don't ever post any youtube videos. it's 22x22x12 inches deep with a bounce house blower for my forced air. Reason being I get my coal free and I use it alot for smelting also. I can heat a piece of 3x4x12 inch square bar to forge welding temperature in about 10 min maybe not even that long. She's a beast takes 1 1/2 5 gallon buckets of coal to fill from empty.
I have a side blasted charcoal forge. Its not a pro build. Its a 55 ga barrel build. Cut the top of with a grinder and flipped it over to give me a little deeper area. A pipe in the side attached to inexpensive air source. Has been my forge for over a year. Its had a few changes in the layout but its still working good.
I used a trailer tire rim.
FYI on the brake drums/rotors go to a automotive repair shop and offer them $5 for one. Most shops save them to a scrap and 9/10 they will sell it to you.
Well I messed up then, I was told if I could get a brake drum off a tractor trailer it would work great
Red clay funnel insulation style instead of just open solves the heat in the entire pot situation
You guys should host a hammering invite viewers up to hang out and found out some steel
Ummm, I have an 18 wheeler break drum😂. Any suggestions?
Just thinking about this one myself. Mine are steel drums thinking of welding legs on and filling with dirt to make a jbod forge. My current forge is a wooden box with about 6" of dirt and it works great until I need to move it then it slowly deteriorates. I'd say give it a try with dirt and see how it goes.
Your comments regarding brake drums seem to be a bit slanted toward condemning brake drums in general (not rotors). The drum you presented as an example, being probably a truck drum, is as you pointed out is misleading. Most folks I know who have made brake drum forges have used conventional drums from automobiles, which are smaller; similar to the rotor you showed. They work fine, don't eat fuel and are easily obtainable (cheap, free). I have seen no need to build a cone of clay or other material around the perimeter. When I clean out the coke at the end of the day, there is a thick, firm rim of ash built up that takes up the dead space. For beginners, cost is a significant issue, so expending $300 to $400 for a commercial firepot is out of the question. I have been using an automobile drum in my forge for over 5 years and am completely satisfied with it. My suggestion for anyone considering a brake drum forge would be to stay away from the larger truck drums and focus on automobile drums; preferably cast iron if possible since they don't warp like the cast steel ones.
Those are rear brake rotors...with the parking brake drum combo. If you learn to do your own brake work you get lots of those things hanging around. You can get some real inexpensive ones online.
i filled mine in with plaster of paris
I try clay it work but it crack and broke down
Try slowly drying the clay or a 50//50 clay and wood Ash mix
Try a 50/50 mixture of plaster of Paris and sand. It's supposed to be good for things like that.
i have a large brake drum from a semi its approximately 16 a cross iam thinking about starting out with coal
you talk too much...jk, good video man. i built a couple of these they work great, i keep seeing all these videos of people welding them to a bunch of stuff it is annoying lol.
you take too long to make your point...you lost me at "..clearly.." Frankly, I'm surprised I lasted that long. Good info, though, once you weed through the excess.
Well you seem ungrateful which is saying something considering you don't know anything about this topic.