Star Trek Strange New Worlds Is Bad At Understanding Race
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- Опубликовано: 21 окт 2024
- Star Trek Strange New Worlds keeps doing biological essentialism and we need to talk about it.
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At 6:30, I accidentally say Zhat Vash when I meant the Quiwat Milat. I got them confused with the OTHER secret ancient sect of Romulan warriors. Whoops.
4:53 What? Did you forget the Episode of Enterprise where it's established that Vulcans have the worlds worst allergic reactions to ROCKS. An allergy so nasty that they lose control of the part of the brain that controls the emotional spectrum?
Edit: I actually LIKED that episode because it was so bonkers (ZOMBIE VULCANS), but I'm also trying to make a point here.
They also got The Tal Shiar. So your mishap is understandable
....
...
Qowat*
I know I’m going to get attacked for this, but I have to say it because I love Star Trek and I want it to succeed not get canceled.
There’s something overly dramatic about progressive liberals. I consider myself to be super liberal, I want people to be kinder, more tolerant, more accepting, more, more, more.
Progressive liberals have this weird need to break down anything, especially good liberals who don’t fit their mold, or say something that they can twist into a talking point. This is Star Trek a sci-fi fantasy show with all kinds of great liberal messaging, can you just back off making this great show into a political talking point? This isn’t MAGA Trek, it’s Star Trek, allow them to entertain us without scratching through dialogue looking for any excuse to stand on your soapbox.
I love your shows and there is a time and place to talk about this stuff, but maybe not on a show teaser trailer fans are excited for and come to people like you to share that excitement. if you hate the show just don’t watch it, but don’t be one of those people who want to kill Star Trek.
ST: Picard was sorta anti-bio essentialism. I remember the android in s1 teaching herself to Vulcan mind meld out of interest in Vulcan culture.
I remember thinking “oh fascinating. What if a lot of our identity actually isn’t biological 🤔 “
That whole scene of them teaching Spock how to act Vulcan would have been so much easier to accept if they were explicitly teaching him how to act like Spock not a Vulcan generally.
They were definitely implicitly using their experiences with Normal Spock to teach Human Spock but it for sure should’ve been clearer
As funny as this was and I am completely ready for more SNW, the way they acted was not what I was expecting. Vulcan logic is cultural, not biological. I was expecting La'an to be freaking out at really feeling her emotions, Uhura being utterly disgusted at how strong everything smelled, and Pike freaking out because now he can see in a wider light spectrum.
Honestly I'm surprised we don't get more of that "Oh, we're going to turn into vulcans, haha what's it going to be like being emotionless--Oh my god, why is everything so much????" while Spock looks into the camera like the office
As funny as the original scene was, I think this comment will be a funnier situation.
A lot of peoples' understanding of Vulcans seems to begin (and end) with "emotionless robot aliens."
Hell, the Vulcan character in Lower Decks was mostly portrayed as a green-blooded Siri/Alexa.
As good as SNW is (and it is good), these people do not know Star Trek, nor do they care to learn.
There's the like 15 seconds of everyone having a mental breakdown at how strongly they feel everything, then they're all "this is fine now, time to be racist to Spock." Despite the latter half of season 1 and parts of season 2 being explicitly about how difficult it is for Spock to control that side of himself.
Spock eating bacon definitely rubbed me the wrong way. Vulcan veganism was always an ethical choice, not a biological necessity. Becoming “fully human” should not have changed his stance on willing predation, especially as there are plenty of humans that live by the same principle.
Does the show even remember vulcans are vegan?
Well, it *would* stand to reason that his senses would be different. Vulcan noses might not find bacon so palatable in the first place, just 'strange alien food.'
@@OllamhDrab yes, but there should have been a line about how he's betraying his Vulcan ethics by eating meat, and how it's odd that Pike's kind of deliberately enabling that.
Imagine believing not eating meat is an ethical choice. Specially in the 23rd century...
@@DLZ2000 Presumably ... they are not growing live pigs on the Enterprise. So it's most likely replicated meat. Also, without his Vulcan brain, he would not have the same mental restraints that would have taken years to produce. Also, humans seem to find bacon universally appealing. Having a fresh new human brain with no mental discipline developed would make certain smells irresistible thanks to eons of evolution as ominvores.
We also see this bio-essentialism in the way the Gorn have been handled in its most insidious way- the whole point in TOS was that the Gorn are rational beings that are our equals, equally deserving of mercy but equally capable of violence as humans. But if anything, Strange New Worlds has regressed on that point, emphasizing that the Gorn's very nature is violent and then even from birth they are incredibly dangerous, born killers, and that our heroes' hatred of them is rational, which is the kind of rhetoric that has been used to justify to some of the most horrible crimes in human history.
I can't help but remember how, initially, Discovery framed Michael Burnham as *culturally'* Vulcan, only to completely throw that aspect of her character out the window as soon as possible, and never look back.
New Trek, in general, seems to be very bad at conflating biology and culture -- it's hardly a unique sin to SNW. And, frankly, this isn't exactly a new problem for Star Trek: anyone remember the "Vulcanoids" line from that one first contact episode of TNG?
SNW has botched the Gorn more than I ever dreamed was possible. Transforming the Gorn from a race of intelligent, domineering and ruthless spacegoing reptiles who evolved out of the same ancient seeding of "humanoid" life in the universe as humans, Vulcans, Klingons, etc. into bargain basement Alien Xenomorph rip-offs is all the proof you need that the current powers that be hate Star Trek with a passion.
Bring us back our goofy Gorn!!!
Star Trek 40k
I can't agree on this as that arc has yet to be resolved. I'm hedging on waiting and seeing.
becoming a vulcan gives you big hair is so fucking funny, I can’t
I think that part of the storyboarding process is "What can we do with Anson Mount's hair this year?"
it also braids hair.
They showed their hand when Kurtzman said the Gorn were turned into xenomorphs to remind us there's such a thing are "pure evil." There is a very casually reactionary core to New Trek.
It's funny how the animated Star Treks have better writers now, it is actually disappointing how unprogressive the new live action treks feel to me.
DS9 handled the racism issues way way better because they had really good writers, SNW stories so far have been very thinly written to me personally.
DS9 pointing out that Worf just doesn’t have a sense of humor, and it’s not all Klingons, was brilliant.
I like that Star Trek gives us these imperfect episodes to springboard into discussions like the one you adeptly began with this video.
Nice work.
I think I remember the same being pointed out in TNG by either Troy or Dr Crusher. Something about Worf never laughing and other klingons doing it all the time.
That's because Worf learned about Klingons from books and stories. That's why all the Klingons we meet are shifty and scheming, while talking about an honour that they don't practice.
Worf is the ideal Klingon because he wasn't raised as an actual Klingon, but as an idealised Klingon.
@@AndrewD8Red good observation. He was raised in Russia, right? I love that part of his back story.
I thought the whole idea of "take this Vulcanization serum, bam, you're more Vulcan than Spock" thing was a really hamfisted way of setting up a "halp we can't turn back human" gag. Up until now we've been told that Vulcans train very hard to control their emotions, and now SNW is telling us all you need to do to have _more_ emotional control than Spock does after years of training, was a miracle drug? If that's all it takes, why not stick an IV in Spock to make him Vulcan AF (and later in Sarek when he starts losing control)?
Because it doesn’t work the way it was intended obviously. Screenwriting 101
ya the whole thing was hackneyed. not SNW's finest moment.
I'm so glad you brought up that episode of _Lower Decks._ It may be my favorite episode of that series, just for how explicitly it shows off what I'd argue is one of the real core values of both Starfleet and _Star Trek_ overall.
Amen there. Just brilliant.
Yeah that makes no sense, the suppression of emotions is a combination of their telepathic abilities and intense training, yes?
It's kind of disappointing because I like the idea of that Vulcan training being somewhat analogous to the patriarchy, and that it harmed both Spock and Michael to perform being emotionless to please their father.
Disco and SNW seemed to understand that at points.
It seems like if they did change their DNA like that it would have the opposite effect? Vulcans have intense feelings, that's why they developed this training in the first place. So if you were suddenly Vulcan and you didn't know how to control your abilities OR emotions, seems like they might be just as erratic as Spock was when he became fully human.
Spock shouldn't have even been erratic, because human emotions are less intense and he was practised in suppressing his emotions, that episode made no sense.
@@KayleighBourquin That's true, watching the clips again, that also occurred to me.
@@KayleighBourquinthat's so true. They could have characterized him as enjoying being especially calm internally, or maybe feeling numb from relative lack of emotions. Could have been a WONDERFUL way to demonstrate the dynamics of Vulcans. Wtf SNW
The initial clip you shared was the first time I'd seen it, and my immediate thought was "but logic is a learned skill." If anything, from a "canon" standpoint they should behave a lot closer to Romulans, since even back in tOS it's shown that Vulcans normally experience everything turned up to 11.
Honestly, they could keep in the logic hijinx by making the crew over-compensating and completely borking it.
I do think the Undiscovered Country Klingons are the best representation. It shows that they are a milicratic *society and culture* but within that are individuals. Some more aggressive, other interested in literature (Shakespeare for instance), tacticians, workers, scientists, farmers, etc. However everyone has been taught how to fight. Just look how both diplomatic and low key intimidating the Chancellor looked in that. The vibe being "I'm here to listen, but don't think me weak"
Funny you bring up Ortegas in a video about how SNW tackles race, because MY big criticism of the character is that she's sort of the most military and prejudiced character of the show. I'd love to see her in an "Enemy Mine" style episode to challenge her preconceived notions about Vulcans, Romulans, Klingons, and Gorn, which she's shown over the past two seasons.
I think her prejudice CAN be an organic part of her character to flow into development, like you’ve expressed a hope for here. But I think too much of it is colored by the use of her as a standin for that racist in Balance of Terror.
As a Puerto Rican frustrated with the startlingly few Latinos or Hispanics present in Star Trek, I have been disappointed by her under serving overall. Thank god for Hugh Culber.
@@Cdr2002 Culber and Rios are awesome.
@@DLZ2000 AGREED
@Cdr2002 the actress was meant to get a focus ep in season 2, but her role was reduced due to her husbands death. Fingers crossed they can still bring her around and make her a stronger character, cause if her prejudice is actually addressed it could be a point for growth. Ala what I always wish McCoy had had more of regarding Spock.
@@vamp_bat_chomp ohh yes I forgot about that tragedy, my mistake. I agree in wanting to see McCoy develop.
They could’ve even just had a little scene, sort of a montage, of Spock giving them a crash course in Surakist philosophy and meditation so they could control their emotions
Or a mind meld, since that would probably pass the info on quicker, and would also explain why some of his mannerisms in particular would pass on. It would also be interesting if the anti half human sentiment might be because he accidentally passed on his own feelings of insecurity through the meld.
@@vamp_bat_chomp oh that would make a lot of sense too. Make for an interesting bit for Spock to explore his own internal conflict and feeling of not being enough
In some ways it feels like the writers, in certain places, are creating these things based off the pop culture impressions of the characters rather than looking at what the core text in those episodes were. As a non-Vulcan example, rewatching the original Klingon episodes in S1-S3 of TNG, the Klingons had a little more nuance to their performances & depiction than just, to use a sfdebris term, stereotyped Space Vikings that they were seen as afterwards. In a way that's what I sort of appreciated Discovery doing what they did in S1 with them, but then after the backlash reverted back to the pop culture viewpoint of what Klingons are.
To be honest it's also a pattern I see with other legacy IP media like Star Wars, Marvel, etc.
I’ve recently thought of how much Klingons tend to seem to take their personalities from the Klingons seen in early Worf episodes of TNG…ignoring that those Klingons tended to be depicted as overcompensating douchebags who overemphasized performing Klingon honor while actually possessing little, in order to contrast with Worf.
Context matters is my point.
We do get comments on how Klingon society has changed. In the Undiscovered Country, the Klingon Lawyer tells Kirk and McCoy about how he fears for his people as they have grown more combative. In DS9's S7, Ezri Dax essentially tells Worf that Klingon society has grown trapped between their ideals and their reality. So, arguably, the way Klingons are shown to behave is a symptom of that, they're clinging to an idea to tolerate a situation they may very well dislike because its "for the good of the Empire." Now, I'd like to see those themes explored, because it would be an interesting discussion about society, and how leaders can manipulate people into thinking something that they'd otherwise reject is the right course.
I've heard a reason thrown about for why this happens to these IPs, and a whole bunch of other ones, be it film, TV, gaming, and so on. The original works in a series are often made by people drawing from a wide range of influences from across several mediums. People grow up on these and a handful of them go on to create the newest entry in said series. However, what happens more often than not is that their primary influence is those originals. It creates a closed loop where they really don't gain the perspective needed to understand why certain concepts, such as the Vulcans, are the way they are. They replicate the feelings and constantly recirculated jokes they were surrounded by, and that's about it.
This is partially why I don't favour big IP all that much, as it's an issue that can't really be fixed.
@@voidutopian That I'd agree with.
hey jessie, love the video, just wanted to mention something. i'm about 34 minutes into the video and as you were talking about the differintals between culture, race, etc, i realised theyve done a similar thing to what they did in the SNW clip but way WAY better in ds9, in the season 5 episode Apocalypse Rising, when sisko, obrien, odo and worf had to infiltrate that klingon party to uncover the changeling mole in the klingon high command. in that episode, they did the whole cosmetic/genetic resequencing to make the 3 non-klingons appear klingon, but they also made it a point to show that they still had to learn how to be culturally klingon. a major subsection of the episode was about worf training them, especially odo, in how to pass as klingon, proving the distinction between biology and systems like culture. i'm actually a little surprised you may have overlooked that episode, but also totally understandable.
I came into the comments to see if Apocalypse Rising had been brought up. I loved all the tiny little cultural things Worf pointed out that would get them busted if they didn’t learn.
That was a good episode and would have served as an excellent counter-point.
What actually irritates me is that there are plenty of really good Vulcan and Spock story lines they could do involving T'Pring, the Logic Extremists, and the general xenophobia of Vulcan society, and yet as usual SNW drops the ball.
This has been a recurring theme in SNW, with "Spock Amok" and "Charades." SNW has been good about it in the past, with "The Serene Squall," so it's disappointing to see the bioessentialism crop up again. It's becoming a pattern.
The preview clip taught me that if I put on blackface I will suddenly understand where Straight Outta Compton was coming from.
I'd like to include the "fully" Vulcan Sybok, the "half" Vulcan and "half" Romulon" Saavik, and the "fully" human Michael Burnham.
I think we can all agree Dr. McCoy was one of the prime beneficiaries of Mr. Spock personal discipline.
"I don't like that. I don't think I ever did, and now I'm sure!"
A full Vulcan who rejected all ideals of emotional restraint.
A half-Romulan who embraced it but with flashes of visible emotion.
And a human who was engrained in Vulcan culture and had to unlearn aspects of it, such as emotional suppression, that ultimately did not benefit her, some being harder to move past than others as she repeatedly struggled with trying to compress when it wasn’t good for her.
All brilliant examples of why the interpretation taken by this clip is bullshit, and I’d like to add one more
Valeris is a full Vulcan never stated to be anything else on screen. A bit emotional, no?
@@Cdr2002 No, Ms. Gender is right. I was demonstrating that Vulcans are not a monolith by including canonically examples of others who chose to accept or reject Surak's teachings.
And Vulcans have emotions: Otherwise they couldn't express them, let alone lose control of them.
@@mrrobotreads I was trying to express agreement with you, I think you made a really good point, I’m sorry if I came off the wrong way
@@Cdr2002 No problem. Comment sections are a terrible place to actually converse. Thank you for reaching out.
@JesseGender I thought I was perhaps the only one noticing that. There is a difference between culture and species. I thought ST was trying to get away form the monoculture aliens, biological essentialism, and racialization but here we go - apparently getting an injection of vulcan genes 20 min ago makes them more vulcan than Spock who was raised on Vulcan as a Vulcan. Its ridiculous. What happened to the training in logic that Vulcans go through at the learning center? What about the years/decades of practice and discipline of Meditation shaping their psychology?
Thanks for being the voice of reason JG🖖
VOY was the most conservatarded ST ever (relative to the culture at the time it aired), and I was glad to ignore it, especially while we had DS9's Rom and Nog (and even Ralf) debunking the racialized monoculture stereotyping, and I thought ST had moved on from that VOY crap, but I guess we're back here again.
PS I know VOY holds a special place in the hearts of many ST fans, and it certainly had merits, I was just not disposed toward seeing past the spicey Klingon Latina, the OldSchool Authoritarian Lady Capt, the anti-choice women's biological imperative episode, the suddenly gen-AI Hologram Doc (tho Robert Picardo made the character great), the watered down Klingon Knockoffs, the Action Movie of the Week episodes (Twister in Space, Jurassic Park in Space, WWE in Space), etc. No offense to the VOY-fans intended.
I'm suspecting there's more at play than a gene-resequence (which Trek kinda handwaves about how that could possibly work anyway) .....one guess is they *specifically* got mind-meld versions of Spock's Vulcan training so they might pass better as Vulcans for whatever they're doing.
@@OllamhDrab Im down for that explanation; it even explains their Spock putdowns (even if that part doesn't explicitly appear in the show, it'll be my head canon). Thanks 🖖
@@MrKreinen theres alot of context missing in the clip, but some basic *heh* logic here points to the fact this is shot of theirs Did more than just give them pointy ears. If they're If they're meant to slide into a base undetected,they would need it all. Current Drugs already suppress our emotions. It's not a stretch that Starfleet would have drugs that do the same thing For espionage.
I’m afraid I have gone off StarTrek SNW after seeing Anson Mount’s tweets supporting Israel’s war crimes in Gaza. It is a shame as I loved the show to no ends and that lovehas been soured by his blindness to sufferings of Palestinians.
I have liked SNW less and less as it has gone on. I hope the SNW experiment doesn't end up being an example of "Be careful what you wish for".
They killed Disco at its most Star Trek and SNW is becoming less and less Star Trek, it seems. I hope I'm wrong and SNW is actually really good this next season.
Same. I don't *think* it'll ever be as bad as PIC, but the more I see of it the more I think of it as one of the worst Trek shows. Which is a real shame, because the casting is great and the characters could be really interesting... if the writers gave them more interesting stuff to do.
So glad Jessie is here to communicate and clarify the weird vibes I was getting from the first look at the new season
I guess. Vulcans aren’t real and the bigotry is suppose to exist in this time period of Trek.
Ok... whoever made Vulcan Pike hair should double their fee.
Anson Mount suggested it. Brilliant.
I swear that hair could stop a phaser blast.
@@robsquared2 That hair could stop a Klingon Batl'eth(spelling)
I think it was stupid to change their hairstyles - how does a drug injection do that? we just have to suspend disbelief for what is essentially a comedy show, at least for that episode. I still think at least 50% of all episodes in a season should be relatively serious.
fired
I like how the camera knows how heinous the cast is being by cutting back to Spock, even if they apparently don't.
I'm really hoping this is a dream sequence of Spock's that showcases some anxiety of his that the episode will have to deal with. The cast-as-Vulcans are impossibly competent and fast, they bring traditional Vulcan weapons and to a *checks notes* repair job?!, was that slow-mo hero walk in full costume thing diegetic (again, for a random powet source repair job!), because if so, we've left all logic and gone fully into dream logic here.
I know one can use logic to justify one's prejudices, but if they were being actually logical and not... just cruel... they'd be carrying all the bags, not him, since they have the advantage of "full Vulcan" strength. Taken together, it feels unrealistic in a way that I genuinely hope means this isn't being played straight, but this all might just be me taking refuge in denial, and they really went there. Ugh. I hope I'm right, because otherwise, this is just atrocious.
@@HaroldElbowmanIV They probably make Spock carry the bags cuz they don't trust him with the weapons. Spock is really getting a beat down in this one.
Tbf... it's not impossible this shtick is meant to be an example of how Starfleet culture was in the 23rd century, throwback to TOS.... not a great argument/excuse but if the camera is seeming aware of the incongruity then it's possible
@@HaroldElbowmanIVI really hope your right about it being some kind of dream
There was a revealing moment from the SNW panel, where Goldsman cited "Let That Be Your Last Battlefield," because that episode didn't really do a good job on racism, anyway, since it's mostly about interpersonal racism, without analyzing the power dynamics and institutional racism.
There was definitely the power dynamic of law enforcement/government monopoly on violence vs the fugitive from a lower caste being persecuted by institutional racism. But it’s made easy to ignore since it’s not emphasized.
@@russellharrell2747 oh, I know. The problem with the episode is that everyone remembers Kirk's mock confusion about the differences between the two factions.
That clip was so cringe. Not only is it really racist, but it's also canonically wrong. They should be MORE emotional, not less. SNW has had some moments that didn't quite work. But this is the first time I've disliked something from them. I really hope they go back and rethink this episode. It's probably too late to change it, but you never know.
And all of this in service of “cccccccccccahmedy” I didn’t chuckle at once.
It’s weird in fantasy and sci fi how easily writers create racist depictions of species or culture or their interactions with others without realizing it cause their not humans
They’ll write some dialogue without a second thought and I’m like “now replace ‘Klingon’ or ‘Orc’ with.. ‘black’ or something and how does it sound?”
“....ooooh”
When I was an Undergrad at UC Santa Cruz, I wrote a paper on the mixed messages regarding racial/cultural hybridity in ST; your essay brought back memories of it
There was a vulcan who made a choice to embrace his emotions.Spocks brother Sybok, Star Trek V.
Ok, here goes... I have funny and strong feelings about this (I am both Black and a biologist which may color my views). For brevity, I won't go into the difference between genotype and phenotype and how they overlap or what race means in a biological sense (it is complicated). What I will focus on is what I think is happening in the scene. I don't think the injection turns the SNW crew into Vulcans for loads of reasons. If I were formulating the injection, I would focus on a few things: some externals such as a pigment that mimic copper blood, pointy ears, hair texture, and, most importantly, drugs that alter brain chemistry so that the crew don't fall out of character. We already have brain altering drugs that alter attention, mood, emotion etc so that is an easy target. I don't think that they are behaving like uber Vulcans because their bodies are changed. I think they are acting that way because that is what the drug cocktail is designed to mimic. Contrast this to when Spock was turned into a full human where all of his senses changed, his hormones have changed, his brain chemistry, sense of smell and hunger have changed. It is less race or culture than manipulated brain chemistry; I once had some surgery and was give propofol; for a brief time, I was uncoupled from my emotions so that I could see that this was a nervous situation but I couldn't experience fear other than a distant intellectual exercise.
I apologize but I do want to mention that Kamala is pronounced more like Kom'la rather than Cam-mala. There is a cheddar colored ex president who mangles her name this way so it grates.
I'm wondering if the problems you're pointing out are reflective about regressive attitudes and thoughts toward race and gender that we're seeing in general in American society in recent years. It's odd that TOS, when Kirk is surgically altered to resemble a Romulan, has a better view on this.
Kirk is surgically altered, not given a serum from an omnipotent alien race that went awry the first time it was used on someone. The crew here aren’t being made to resemble an alien. They are accidentally fully becoming an entirely different physiology (that naturally took the Vulcans thousands of years to evolve and discipline) in a matter of seconds. It’s an entire rewrite of their genome and brain chemistry.
I haven't even watched your video yet, but a buddy of mine shared this clip with me yesterday and immediately I was concerned about the biological essentialism on display. This is something Trek has always struggled with and it was pretty disappointing to see it on full display in an episode created in 2024.
Yeah, it's bad enough to have that in the show in the first place, but it strikes differently when the producers (evidently) like it so much that they want to show it off in the marketing material.
With just this clip, we don't have much to go on. But I would be interested in seeing if the episode tackles the biases of those "fully Vulcans". Are they acting this way because this is how they know Vulcans to act? Or is it just because that's how the audience knows Vulcans to act? One of those is better than the other.
Smart money's on the latter.
@@Netherfly Probably, yeah. But I'm open to being surprised.
Strange New Worlds being racist and reactionary when it runs out of ideas? Nooooo... /s
Buckle up for the Gorn. This is about to be a bumpy ride.
I'm actually cautiously optimistic about the Gorn.
They had Pike say "sometimes monsters are just monsters," which is usually a signal to the audience that the lead is going to learn much more nuanced takes about something. In fact, he already does, because he reconsiders that notion in the diner, later in the episode.
@@DLZ2000
Based on Alex Kurtzman’s descriptions of Gorn, I’m not confident.
@@BlackCover95 again, they've ALREADY shown that they're doing that, by having Pike reconsider his notion that "monsters are just monsters" in the diner scene. The producers describing the Gorn more in line with that line is simply to preserve the surprise of the revelation. They've also said there will be more to them than we realize.
6:50 (Qowot Milat)
SNW loves to uphold the status quo and pander to attitudes that find progress scary. Everyone has their place and knows it. The women's lives revolve around men, or their achievements were through cheating. Spock is straight. Spock is not Jewish. Disability is treated not as something that needs accommodations and might be difficult to adjust to, but as a fate worse than death that just goes to show how moral and brave Pike is. Gorn are scary monsters, not people.
It's frustrating seeing it getting so much praise when it's so cowardly about making any statement that could even flirt with controversy.
I'm pretty sure the Jewish faith developed in the middle east and not on Vulcan.
@@markwhittington1070 try looking a little bit into the development of the character.
Trek should never ever ever ever ever ever EVER be afraid of progress.
Yeah, I fully noped out of that trailer the instant the Vulcan-ified crew took issue with describing Spock as Vulcan.
Unless... Then Spock wakes up from his nightmare?
There was a time, not too long ago, that I would never have guessed that one day, Janeway turning into a salamander would no longer be the worst idea in Star Trek.
This is so true and it's bothered me for years. I appreciate, as well, that you clarify where this idea of conflating biology and culture is a Western one that many theorize emerged to rationalize Black African chattel slavery.
...I wouldn't say it's a Western one - look at both Chinese and Japanese biological essentialism predating even knowing the West existed, for example. Sadly, it seems more something that emerges when cultures meet others and are unable to handle the new things they see (due to various issues, xenophobia being just one of many). The West is just the most recent example of that.
@@snorpenbass4196 xenophobia isn't racism. Jessie is talking about racism, which is a form of bio-determinism.
I only found your channel a few months ago but everything I’ve watched from you has been totally mind expanding! Your talent for noticing and talking about the things that give me a sense of unease and crystallizing them into such deeply articulated presentations is just astounding! And that you can do it from a place of love for all these movies and shows without descending into unhinged rants is a pleasure as well! Just because we love them doesn’t mean we can’t come to reasoned grips with their shortcomings when they have them. Bravo!
As someone trying to separate "racial" traits & "Cultural" traits in tabletop RPG's for years now and hitting the player-wall of "but elves snooty !", I feel this video to my core.
babe wake up jessie gender uploaded a video about something I’ve never heard of
Surprising, given the past series of trek "all romulans are scheming, all vulcans are misogynist, all cardassians are fascist. And the people who don't show their race's trait are seen as an aberration, not tearing down tropes.
Krillin: “Saiyans, am I right?”
Trunks: “Uh...yeah...”
Krillin: “...Oh sh!t was that racist?”
Tawny Newsome is getting her own series? That's awesome!
The full clip mentions the Kerkhovians from the episode when Spock is turned human. Since the Kerkhovians are interdimensional beings, any serum derived from their technology would have properties beyond inducing a pure physical transformation.
Right. It’s almost like if you pay attention we don’t make outrageous claims like Strange New Worlds doesn’t get Vulcans or is a racist show
Honestly, I think the writers just don't understand Vulcans at all. Plus, they just come off as Elitist snobs.
Thank you for existing.
Honestly while the issues here are still a valid problem, I do think SNW problem is also just plain and simple Flanderization.
Look is a dog the same as a human? No? Then an alien won't be the same as a human.
Trying to draw these distinctions between humans doesn't make sense, since we are genetically very, very homogenous. But aliens will be very different from us.
So the only argument I will consider valid here is the canon one.
I'm hoping this is from a segment of their version of a "Treehouse of Horror" episode or whatever, it seems too silly to be within the "reality" of the series.
While I think there are issues with the clip, I do think we need to see the whole unedited scene before knowing for certain how it's being handled. We do see them complaining about the emotions before being suddenly all logical so there may be something in there that explains the shift. There will still probably be issues but some of it may be explained.
I really hope that's what happened.
Talking with some folks I know, I can be pretty certain it’s not explained anymore then what is in the clip.
@@jessiegenderafterdark5287 I also would say even if context might be added, sharing this clip out of context would be very problematic for a "fun new trailer".
I'm hoping that in the episode, it will be revealed that there's something wrong with the serum they used to transform them, which is what's actually causing them to act that way and that at the end of it they'll all be apologizing to Spock.
I always liked that the Vulcans and Romulans were explicitly inspired by aspects of pre-christian dominance imperial Roman culture. Here you have-baked in a kind of statement that people are not defined monolithically by their biology or even the overarching cultural circumstances. Vulcans being that way and Romulans being that way contained the unspoken message that Romans may have been both ways in a much less exaggerated sense). So even if you took a biological essentialist tack, you were obviously going against the whole Roman theme. It was (or should have been) there to remind you of the fact that these differences were threads of potential cultural development, not biologically determined.
And don't forget the Stoics, who Vulcan Logic seems at time to be riffing off of.
1:32 in the year of our Luigi 2024? 🤣🤣🤣
Waluigi has a big sad.
Where are these Strange New Worlds? What happened to space exploration… so many episodes in this series are focused on teenage angst. Where are the adults?
The only way I can imagine this episode working is if it turns out that the characters assume the serum will make them logical and emotionless like how they think of Vulcans, and they act based on that. So it becomes more about them exploring their own biases once they realize that the serum didn't actually change their personalities. Even then there's a lot of problems, like why would Spock's friends treat him like that??
My hope is that there was an off screen mind meld to try to help them act vulcan and the meaness is his own insecurities made manifest.
@@vamp_bat_chomp That would be perfect actually. I really hope that's what happens.
Fun side note about Pikes hair to lighten the mood. I'd love to see a Prodigy crossover where Dal and Pike meet and either they are constantly complimenting the others hair, or they have a big "hair-off" :D
Given that this was a teaser clip and doesn't show the entire episode, its entirely possible that the concerns you raised end up being addressed. It could be their exaggerated Vulcan-stereotype behavior is purely a psychological response to their physical changes and a way of their minds processing the extreme speed in which their physical and mental changes occurred. A lot of people undergoing HRT when transitioning (MYSELF INCLUDED before anyone assumes I'm not talking out of experience or the sharing of experience with others) go through a "cringe" phase of hyper-feminine, wearing not-entirely-age-appropriate clothing, exaggerated feminine mannerisms which extends out over months. I can only imagine what that may have looked like if the changes were compressed into a matter of seconds.
Of course, it could just be that the entire episode is pretty much them behaving like this for its entirety and played up just for laughs but again, it's just a teaser clip and the episode could very well deal with the inappropriateness of their behavior and treatment of Spock.
I hear you and agree. We can only hope there have a better explanation on this. Like, what if, the use Spok’s DNA to make the spray and what it’s actually happening is that the others are expressing what Spok thinks of himself at that point in time making it a “therapy” session for Spok?🤔🤔
That's kind of what I was hoping, not his DNA, but that he might have patched their self-control via mind meld, and then his own insecurities are being reflected back at him.
We rely too heavily on categories of people. This is in part because of the need to aggregate and abstract in general. But we have caused ourselves considerable harm by for example using prejudiced connections between cultures or genders and individual behaviors or motivations. We need to create better models for caring for respecting and learning from and about others as individuals. We need to stop treating ignorance as actively willful stupidity, and be conscious of when we are forgetting individuality in favor of a simple but unnecessary and potentially destructive prejudice.
Wow @JessieGender, a bit shocked a your dismissal of Chapel’s arc portrayal as justification for canon in season 2.
1: first episode, “the Broken Circle”, Chapel and M’Benga are captured as part of the rogue away team attempting to rescue La’an, they get jacked up on M’Benga’s space-meth and kick some Klingon nationalist ass, we begin to see more of their shared back story, 2: in’”Charades’ she convinces the Kerkohvians to return Spock to normal by confessing to them her feelings for him… something she is obviously very conflicted about. She comes back and jabs him with the ‘cure’ before he gets to mush out on her….. in the end they do kiss but there is the chess game, the “quantum cat” ……She has her own song in the musical which has her getting comfortable with HER choice of career over Spock.
…. There’s more, i think, but I’ve already wasted enough time combing through clips, trying to find decent full plot synopses and I ditched Paramount Plus till one or the other of SNW or Lower Decks come back…. The rest they offer is pretty mediocre or I’ve already watched it.
My point is, Chapel’s character development continued richly throughout season two, as much or more than most. We know from season 1 and arguably even MORE in season 2 that on top of being a competent, combat field nurse and scientist, boss ass bitch warrior, she likes to “party” (by that I mean fuck, perhaps my inference) but true intimacy is difficult for her. Is that because of the war or other details we’ve yet to find out? Her feelings for Spock are intense but complex, she respects his candor, lack of pretence and their shared interests in the fascinations of the universe…. But there’s more obviously.. but that more is too much for her to put a label on or perhaps even face. The fact that she jabs Spock with the Kerkohvian cure is IMO an obvious sign that she prefers the less intimate potential of an emotionally suppressed Spock…. Less complicated
Is she running from Spock to the fellowship/career move or from the war …. Or simply just looking for change and challenge. I think that’s more who she is.
She is NOT the nurse Chapel of canon, nor I hope, will she ever be. They’ve written and casted her well …Jess Bush rocks the role (and the accent)
…. And, while i agree with much of your assessment of the 5 minute clip, it’s from a 46 to 60 minute episode. Perhaps give it the benefit of the doubt till the full episode is released. I get that you need to produce content but basing a review of something on 8-11% of its full scope, without context …. 🙂↔️
Edit: ok, you addressed that, let’s see how they handle it
I know in the novel Spock's World they talk about how people can learn language by being injected (I think? The details are muddy) with RNA, and that allows them to gain an innate knowledge of a language by restructuring their brains to understand it or whatever. McCoy does it to learn to speak vulcan in the book
I know Spock's World isn't canon, but we perhaps an explanation for why the SNW characters become logical when turned into vulcan is that they put some RNA stuff to make them learn vulcan philosophy and mental discipline techniques.
God, SNW is just so bad at handling race, it's not even funny at this point.
This is 5 days old?! I check YT every day AND I have my alerts set for you, Jessie! I'm upset!
Strange new worlds is slowly turning into a comedy show, they want to create two new star trek comedy series (that no one is asking for), the section 31 trailer was god awful and I'm not really into the idea of Starfleet Academy. The future of Trek is not for me, I fear.
Someone with more knowledge of literature could talk about fantasy using species as a stand-in for ethnicity, but I tend to think of Tolkien. When Tolkien was doing so, he was trying to make particular nationalistic metaphors after the results of a World War, and a view colored by a man of where and when he lived.. People who grew up under Tolkien's influence often reused his species as ethnicity metaphor not only without thinking that the world has changed, but also without the same deftness. Books on magic schools with fantasy species wind up using the same essentialism but devoid of metaphor. Space stories may also have some sort of message they want to say in metaphor, but not realize the challenges of reusing techniques of a century ago
Strange New Worlds seems to have reversed the polarity of the Star Trek quality graph. It might get really good at season seven, but I hope season 3 is more like season 1.
Yeah I saw that clip just today and my first thought given the jokes regarding Spock not being fully Vulcan was "wait so Vulcans are inherently racist and xenophobic on a genetic level?" followed by "well Vulcans are not inherently logical, quite the opposite".
I kind of understand why they would do this from a storytelling side because the comedy potential is obvious, whereas the crew trying to pass as Vulcans in a situation where they are overwhelmed by poverful Vulcan urges might not be that special, and it would feel like a rethread of last season's Spock episode, but this is probably something where someone should have taken a look at the big picture and said "oh wait".
I am biracial, i grew up feeling like I didn't belong in the worlds of either of my heritages and institutionally I was taught in schools I wasn't a full person, but two halves. Work places and jobs, medical, all treated me as fractions and stereotypes. If let me feeling like I never belonged anywhere.
It wasn't until I accepted myself and transitioned away from who I was seeing myself as did I find a place that welcomed me for being just a whole person in the lgbtqia+ community
Thank God you made a video about this!
I was going crazy to be the only one to notice this. I even had someone answer me "Hopefully the Vulcans won't be offended." It's so easy to fall back onto small stereotypes and drag back the conversation into the mud.
I'm very disappointed for now it feels like we're regressing.
I have to be honest, I wasn't expecting much based on the title. But you turned me around, with the differences between culture and genetics. Well done.
I always find it hilarious when Trek goes on about Vulcans embracing logic, when humans have got Spinoza, Kant, Bertrand Russell, George Boole, Edward deBono, Lyall Watson, Carl Sagan ...
If the Vulcans saw how many people we've had in history who embraced logic ...
Yes, THANK YOU. 1st gen Trekkie here, and you articulated very well (& with much deeper insight) all of the issues I INSTANTLY had when I saw this clip. I couldn't even finish the clip. I really hope they manage to pull it out of the ditch, but yeah. All of this. Thank you.
It is worth noting that in the Prodigy episode where Dal discovers who he is (season 1, episode 15, Masquerade), there are still some species stereotypes present (logic with the Vulcan ears and aggression with the Klingon ridges/beard/teeth to be precise), which demonstrates that even Star Trek that tries to do better can often still fail. However, it's the striving for change that matters, something Star Trek is increasingly reluctant to do after both reactionary and legitimate criticisms of its recent shows, a reluctance I hope isn't permanent. Thank you for another insightful video. LLAP🖖
I was sure you'd point out Klingons were portrayed in Star Trek: Discovery as an example of the problem that SNW had in Season 2.
We don't know how the episode goes on, but I'd love it if after the intro (because it seems like a cold opening to me) it turns out that the "new vulcans" act like it, to play a prank on Spock XD
Re: your comments on them having to try and force things into the 60s framework so they don't break canon. I would 100% die on the hill of fighting for them to break continuity on stuff like Nurse Chapel. Just fuckin wreck it. She's not important in any way in TOS, not in a way that can;t just be excused as a wild last name coincidence or something. Any other name and personality could fill the role she played just as well. So they should feel 1200% free to break out of of that and rewrite her history so she can be herself, and not some terrible love-starved middle-aged waif pastiche.
I'm definitely glad that Trek has repeatedly ignored that line about women captains in "Turnabout Intruder."
Vulcan ideology and portrayal is largely based on Charvaka, and Advaita Hindu and Buddhist (or broadly Santana Dharma) ideology and practice; It is religion JG, experience based Consciousness centered Naturalist religion, not faith based Scriptural Theist religion. "Religion" doesn't only belong to the Greco-Semitic Abrahamic complex; it's more diverse than the Anglocentric culture would have you believe.
The reason I couch it that way is that Gene Roddenberry was always intent that Vulcan logic was NOT a religion, to the point that he fought and pushed down more overt religious aspects of Star Trek 3.
@@jessiegenderafterdark5287 Good point; I suppose one has to know how to speak to one's audience in terms they will understand and relate to :)
PS Gene & D.C. Fontana mostly relied on 'Merican ignorance to disguise Santana as alien ideology; "Charvaka" is literally the 'school of Logic,' the "Katra" is literally the consciousness concept of the "Kitta" (Citta/Chit), Surak is an obvious analogue of Siddhartha (or Shakara), the Kir'Shara is an analogue of the Upanishads and/or Sutras, the Meditation Discipline focus, the Pluralism of the IDIC, the "nonviolence" (Ahimsa), the ethical veganism, etc. etc. etc. It's extensive and not well hidden at all; but the vast majority of Mericans don't seem to know any better.🖖
@@jessiegenderafterdark5287 PS. JG I luv your ST reviews; In addition I'd also luv to see you do reviews/analysis of season 1 of Xmen'97.
It's so good, and so relevant, and it has qualities that I think your voice could unpack better than most :)
... is Moana secretly a Star Trek movie? It embraces lots of the same values that the best of Star Trek does. Refusing to let your role in society define or limit you. Exploration and discovery of things you never could have imagined. Learning more about yourself and your crewmate(s) along the way. A world(s)-devouring big-bad that needs dealing with, and stopping to really THINK ends up winning the day when firepower and agility can't.
It's honestly dispiriting because Star Wars media has recently been treating the Jedi much the same way that SNW is treating Vulcans. Just because YOU PERSONALLY would not want to practice that culture or be a part of it, just because it may not work FOR YOU, does not make it bad in and of itself. It shows a lack of acceptance in BOTH franchises, a lack of tolerance towards someone who is different from you, who has different beliefs and worldviews and priorities in life. The Jedi don't deserve to be villainized any more than the Vulcans do but because they're so different from us, fandom at large has a tendency to view them as exactly that.
It's a shame that Star Trek in 2024 is farther behind the times than Star Trek in the 1960's but that teaser clip could stay effectively unchanged and be recontextualized as the bridge crew making fun of Spock the same way they did in Charades
It looks like it's going to be the conflict of the whole episode, but imagine it as a cold open where they beam back from the away mission and immediately break character and start consoling Spock like "Man you really couldn't tell we were messing with you? It was all Uhura's idea"
That would also favorably recontextualize Charades to be more like Spock wanted to explore his human side but logic dictates that he needed a reason first
...not to fan fiction about it...
My first thought after seeing that clip was, "So racism is a biological trait in vulcans?"
On a far more serious note, it's good to hear others (more cogently) discuss the unease I had with the clip and its context in the greater Strange New Worlds series. Thank you.
One of the better episodes of Voyager for me was when they ran into a rogue Vulcan ship that was being hunted down by the Vulcans. What made them rogue was engaging their emotions.
Recent Star Trek has gotten away from the mono-cultures somewhat. Romulans on Picard have various hairstyles rather than the bowl cut. We saw a Vulcan gangster on Picard, and apparently we’re going to see a Vulcan boy band member in Section 31.
Let the record show that Jessie and I are 100% in agreement on this issue. No daylight between us at all.
The current IP holders of the franchise are within their rights to steer Strange New Worlds in whatever direction they wish, but YA territory is probably not the most logical.
As a lifelong fan of Star Trek, I can’t get excited by what has been presented. Here’s hoping that things will change for the better, sooner rather than later.
The only problem I have with the ongoing joke of Spock's half-Vulcan heritage is that it's something his friends shouldn't go out of their way to bring up as a negative, given they all know what it's like being human and the balance Spock juggles everyday.
In TNG's, "Who Watches the Watchers", it is mentioned that the featured species of the episode are "proto Vulcans" and have a logical streak.
Frequently, I worry that a lot of people are so focused on "what" we should be concerned about instead of "why" we should be concerned about it.
Racism is bad. But it's not (just) because it goes against social norms or breaks rules somewhere. The entire breadth of human history gives us a big glimpse into why it's not okay to glorify and promote the dehumanization of a group of people based on a shared physical characteristic. Transphobia is bad. Not (just) because "it triggers the kids" or it being a social faux pas, but because it expresses a lack of value in a human life by dehumanizing a person because of who they are.
This is why we need to jack up public education funding yesterday.
32:32 I think that’s the problem when you depict a fictional or extinct group or species like that.
Just look at how many people still view Neanderthals as these dumb brutes that were wiped out by violent Homo sapiens.
Not only is this a projection from our current violent patriarchal hierarchical society onto a whole different society but it also would be hugely racist if Neanderthals were still alive!
Also, concerning Paleolithic Homo sapiens: they were still black back then, even in Europe but somehow often still in documentaries, they miraculously are white once they enter Europe as if that’s the essential thing that defines Europeans because the majority of them are white today.
I saw this coming when they turned the Gorn into an always-evil monster race straight out of the 1970's D&D Monster Manual (and Alien - let's not forget Alien).
They share only two things in common with Xenomorphs. Forced reproduction needing another species to do it, and they both have tails. That’s literally it. Culturally and behaviorally the Gorn in SNW are nothing at all like Xenomorphs and people need to stop parroting it. If I were to list all the differences it would take paragraphs.
But the second key thing you’re missing here is Star Trek has ALWAYS had some sort of big bad alien race that comes across as some monstrous nonnegotiable force. First it was the Klingons, then it was the Borg, then it was the Cardassians etc etc etc. The Borg didn’t get any humanization until their fourth on screen appearance. The Gorn have only had three appearances, and they’ve already begun talking about there being more to the Gorn than just monsters in the episode Hegemony. It’s something they mention multiple times in the episode. They wouldn’t mention that let along more than once if it wasn’t something they were going to follow through on. Unlike Discovery, SNW hasn’t abandoned any of its setups.
@SecretFantasyConsole what are you talking about, regarding Discovery??
Discovery literally ended each season with peace between a seemingly implacable foe:
The Klingon war ended with a leap of faith on Burnham's part.
CONTROL was defeated when past foes teamed up to clean up Section 31's hubris.
Vance negotiated with the Emerald Chain and found ways to reintegrate past UFP worlds.
Discovery used real-world METI and lincos techniques to negotiate a peaceful co-existence with Species 10-C.
The Progenitor tech was safely hidden to deescalate conflict over who would control that power.
Something similar was done with the Sphere data as Discovery was sent into dormancy in the early 33rd century.
Of the shows in the current era, it's the one that's most overwhelmingly showed the path to peace with some of the most difficult foes, often through episodes that show some of the most nuanced negotiation in Trek history, such as "Will You Take My Hand?," "Unification III," "There is a Tide...," "...But to Connect," "Species 10-C," "Coming Home," and "Erigah."
The show is clearly setting the Gorn up for a path toward peace. Pike said "sometimes monsters are just monsters," then pivots in the conversation in the diner.
The show won't get all the way there, otherwise there wouldn't be a point of conflict when we get to TOS' "Arena," but they'll give it a start.
They're definitely doing a better job with humanizing the Gorn than the Vulcans.
I think the original series did a good job distinguishing the biological distinctions of Vulcans vs. the soviocultural values of Vulcans. They weren't conflated.
You hit all the points I've had issues with in the last two seasons. Even in Discovery, Michael is VERY Vulcan in her mannerisms despite being human, because she was raised in a Vulcan family with Vulcan customs. Those writers clearly understood the distinction between culture and genetics more than SNW.
Hello, Jessie. Nice! I myself am more hyped about the final season of "Lower Decks" and season three of "Strange New Worlds" than "Academy" and the "Section 31" movie combined. Yet, I don't the first-ever "Star Trek" sitcom.
The monkey's paw of SNW season 1 being the strongest start to any star trek show, only to immediately be followed by some real "fascinating" writing choices.
I obviously haven't seen the episode, but it could be a plot point that the altered crew are acting the way they THINK Vulcans are supposed to act, rather than their biology changing this behavior.
It's equally possible that the writers were just going for wacky Vulcan hijinks and weren't thinking clearly, but I thought I'd bring up this possibility.