Well Mani is a very eloquent speaker, but he is missing the point made by Mr. French - 1. It's alarming that the system where the people in power or running for power are facing serious charges such as murder and attempted murder and 2. Even when these people are put in jail, they are not serving their time as they should be and manage to get unworthy benefits while being in jail.
2 G SCAM accused A RAJA is acquitted and came clean .. We can not promote bad people in politics thinking that the court will take care of their Crime or any wrongdoing.
@@surajs5913 The success of Chinese economy which is 5x more than India,when both of us began at the same level is an evidence that their system works better
@@Manish_Kumar_Singh so how can India hope to mimic chinese success? Reduced labour rights? Not caring about environmental impacts at all? Mandatory work camps? 996 work culture? Or maybe "one child policy"? Chinese problems are much worse than Indian problems. There entire demographic pyramid has been inverted due to the brutal enforcement of one child policy. This effect will be felt for the next 20 years, as the amount of people capable of contributing to the economy reduces. This comes at a time when the Chinese Communist Party adopts more socialist methods, discourages capitalism and closes itself off from the reat of the world. Han nationalism is not sufficient for progress when the population is restricted from wider range of thought. The next 20 years will be the test of chinese system, just as how 1970 to 1990 was the fall of the USSR.
@@surajs5913 You are selectively pointing out the missteps of theirs decision making without complementing their success. But even viewing from that angle they still have better standard of living, better technology infrastructure and overall well-being. Don't pretend that we don't have 996 work culture or that having a no work environment due to bureaucratic and red tappe is better than having a work environment where people have a chance to earn freely, but with greater risk. Just look at the millions of indian who think they are lucky to work as literally slaves in the gulf countries, insted of India. And if you ever gave option to indian blue collar workers a choice to either Work in indian manufacturing industry or Chinese manufacturing industry, you will literally see barely anyone choosing India. Now comming to population pyramids, the population pyramids of China is not too different from that of Japan or south Korea. If the decrease in younger population is due to one child policy, then the population will explode once the restriction are removed, but that hasn't happened in China. It is common sense that as an economy progresses peope will start taking better more efficient and stophisticated jobs ,requiring less workforce and more rewarding. They have achieved most of the dreams for which choose democracy to achieve.
Three cheers to Mani Shankar Aiyer for his clarity on any subject, frankness, and high class sense of humor all the time, all the way. Kind Regards! Sunder T (85 years old from Mumbai, India).
Bugati, check Democracy index an international organization that rank democratic nations. India is fairly high just below Italy. If u still think Indian democracy is not efficient. Please write a letter to Democracy Index organization.
@@TheContrariann India has 280 million Muslims. That's more than any other country can handle. India is invincible in that respect. It's democracy goes to back to lichhavi in 600 BC which was a democratic republic.
@@sureshpolali4616 That is because his perspectives on some affairs are not those of a specialist. With regard to business, however, he is illuminating, and understands politics very well, too.
Nice to hear Mani Shankar Iyer waxing eloquent about democracy. Only one wonders why it cannot be practiced in his own party. Wish he would give a similar discourse to the Gandhis. He would most likely get kicked out of Congress.
You can put Mani on any side and he will convince you for the side.. those are the Doon school debate skill.. but facts on ground about India's democracy are for all to see... He skirted around the issue of corruption, nepotism, and inheritance successfully and delivered a lecture on History.
@@evenbrown4753 the Canadian genocide is something you can't escape. What genocide does India have? We didn't establish a Hindu Republic. We have 280 million muslims. No nation in the world can handle that.
Don't get carried away by his words. Indian democracy got big flaws that are yet to be highlighted in the bigger picture. First of all, elections are not reliable, money is that all matters in India, people are being given false identity and money to vote for the candidates. Corrupt leaders are again and again coming into power because there are no alternatives, Democracy is just a label, people are frustrated with dysfunction of government institutions and we need serious changes in the democratic system of India.
"Power will go to rascals, rogues, freebooters. . . . All leaders will be of low caliber & men of straw. . . They'll have sweet tongues & silly hearts. . . They will fight amongst themselves for power & the two countries will be lost in political squabbles. . . . A day would come when even air & water will be taxed. He wrote this 64 years ago. Incredibly we've worked very hard to prove him right. Apparently these words were uttered by Winston Churchill on the topic of granting independence.
Loved Mani's arguments.. he is a ruthless, witty debater but more importantly has a clear point. Democracy may not be without its flaws, but we have yet to come up with a better system.
// Democracy may not be without its flaws, but we have yet to come up with a better system. // that is really a subjective statement because there is no system in the world which is one size fits all. at different stages and different time-periods and different type of people different kinds of systems are best. we can know this from the case of a simple family or a school. we don't allow kids to have democracy in their choice of foods, games, life choices and other things. parents and teachers constantly guide and tell them what type of foods they need to eat, what type of games to play and so on and on. a school teacher doesn't ask her class, children we will vote on whether to play a game or study the subject. because we know children are not that much developed mentally to make best decision in this case. when they grow up degree of freedom allowed to them is also increased. when they reach college and then start working they get highest level of freedom even though that is doubted in case of india where even married people need to be told by their parents what decision to take in life but are quick to say democracy is the best. first have democracy in your families and on individual level. in the west, adults are free to make their own life choices so they have democracy from individual level to national level. similar to above scenario people in different countries are at different levels of development both mentally and in the outer world. and if different people groups are at different capacities how can a one system fits all be any good? so this is clearly not the case of one system fits all or that no better system exists. it is simply the case of different system are best for different peoples who are at different levels socially, mentally, economically etc. and none of the developed countries, including in the west, became prosperous when they were as free and democratic as they are today. china's system which is also known as benevolent authoritarianism is at another alternative to democracy.
@@Liberty55555 Where is he now? His political career is over. This guy is not at all sensible. It's evident from the debate that how he slams people in the debate: He calls outrightly the other hypocrites despite the other debaters had some factual correct info..Seriously he a classless loser who is ready to bad mouth. I'm glad about congress's defeat such jokers are out.
No matter what mani said is truth or wrong... as a Indian i feel proud that mani did trash patrick and sohail..... we don't need lectures from a foreigner and a man who stays in london for half of his life ...... and comment on our system . yes there are flaws nothing is perfect in this world so stop this bashing INDIA and Its democracy and Look in to those Country .... who in the name of democracy cancel's it;s citizen entering their own country with the reason national security ....(snowden)
My gosh my view's are totally changed bout Mani Shankar after watching this video and it just proves that how the godi media turns an "intellectual" into a "lunatic"
We have very few leaders who can represent us in an international platform .Mani Shankar ,Shashi Tharoor and Subramani swami make us proud when they present India in a foreign country .End of the day Knowledge counts ...
@I I The guy who may be repairing the fridge might have gone to a class where the teacher , taught him how to repair it. Speaking teaching and sharing knowledge is also relevant .A mechanic without knowledge can spoil the fridge .
Also his was proper selection of words with no insult to Indian democracy. Rather it was an argument about the way it has been carried out with proper facts. What I feel is that it is pointless to hamper his image by attacking him just because he is pointing out flaws in our system.
Human development hasn't improved. We have too much democracy that the dead bodies are floating in the Ganges and no leader would take the accountability.
Indian political parties give ticket and position to families members - Nehru to Rahul, MGR to Jai Lalita, Karunanidhi family etc. Zamindari in the garb of democracy.
Well, India is a feudal democracy. People still believe and vote for leader's families because they trust them to uphold the values of their predecessors. However, this is a mindset and process that's changing.
@@tgsaravind Not Changing sir.. A legendary ESridharan Sir was defeated by 4th std fail person in the recently held election. Do not expect people's voting will change ths system It will not . We need legislation - Why can not we introduce ENTRANCE EXAM for people who want to contest election ? . QUALITY AT SOURCE --- Election should happen in stages - ENTRANCE EXAM -- SHORT LISTE _ FINAL etc.. Need to reaaly introduce major QILAITY IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM for politicians
@rockyqw12 - I agree that research by Mr french is much more than one would expect a non-Indian journalist to know and raises serious points that would be decisive for victory in other debates. However,as I understand, topic of this debate is whether Indian democracy is a weakness of republic of India that can potentially threaten its existence. And I think in absence of democracy India would have got splintered into various little segments along lines of Religion, language, caste and ethnicity.
I think India, of all the countries in the world, is ready for Communism. Its the ONLY way to unite the federation. The fact India stayed together for so long is already a miracle of sorts.
regardless of these English speaking slaves/socialists/pseudo-secularists and ex - colonial masters, India will become the largest economy in the world again, within 3 to 4 decades. After all, India was the mother of modern democracy, largest democracy, oldest democracy and also the largest economy in the world for much of past 2000 yrs. India was the largest economy in the world with a GDP of 25% average, until the time British invasion in the 18th century - Angus Maddison for OECD countries
Patrick is amazingly correct and this is an indian who is saying this. India has numerous issues and it has MPs and MLAs who once wins forgets what they were selected for.
Democracy has never failed in India. It is not at its best in India either. Part of the problem is the way independence came about in 1947 - which was in short notice. Gandhi and Nehru knew that it was literally impossible to form a country that can be self sufficient in such a ridiculously short time. The fallacies in the way democratic institutions are run are declining, but all we need is a leader similar to Nehru who can influence our moral and intellect to rise up to that challenge.
What are you going to replace Democracy with? Do not let perfection prevent the good. In a Democracy politicans are denigrated. Perhaps excessively denigrated? I don't mind when my opponents are denigrated but not mine! "Trump Derangement Syndrome" 😀 "Biden Dementia Syndrome " is 😣 The suggested alternative, Monarchy has its problems also. If all people were angels there would be no need for government. 🤔😉😏
He is a misfit to talk about democracy as he never accepted and respected the democratically elected government of India under the leadership of PM Narendra Modi by 1.3 billion people of India.
and sir who gets selected as representative .. only a certain class or a particular family .. how to solve that getting elected in india is really difficult task you can clear upsc exam in india but there are very less chances to get elected in india unless you are rich enough or your parents are mps/mlas as hennry said
"Served one years under the dictatorship of Ho Chin Min, two years under the dictatorship of Saddam Hussain and three years under Zia Ul Haq........and rest of years under???? Gandhi's.....?
I think democracy is crippling us. Indian government should be like American government. There should be one head to take decisions without any pressure from party. And we would choose that one head!
The Indian democracy despite its many flaws does very well as far as representation of most communities/regions/languages/religions/castes etc are concerned compared to a autocracy. To a large extent, it does provides security and freedom of speech. Except for the unfortunate Kashmiris and the NE, the basic rights have been largely preserved. HOWEVER, is that all a democracy can aspire to - why not development? This is where the lack of merit in the election process hurts India.
hinduism is democratic religion where you can abuse gods, christianity and islam have set death penalty for such thing. see where are they today and where is hinduism. democracy only works where these three conditions are in perfect balance: 1. society has been homogenised like in case of almost all successful democracies be it east or west. 2. most people are educated and capable of having little bit of inquisitive minds 3. majority people have ethics none of the conditions are there in india so naturally it is a failed democracy
we need the power to criticise everyone and everything publicly and without fear of political fractions in disguise of anonymity and any attack on anyone for criticising someone or some organisation must be held accountable and must be dealt with punitive action.....and for that we need a centralised and autonomous law enforcement system which can't be influenced by anyone or anything and only accountable to Supreme Court, not even The President of India
Lol. Mani is like the contractor who shows a house with no roof and justifies that no house is perfect. He is downplaying the growing corruption, nepotism and both national/ state lvl populism that are eroding those very checks on power he extolled like courts etc. People like these will deny threats until it completely consumes them.
Democracy is based on ideology wherein people views are respected. Mani started with spoiling Patrick French's reputation by highlighting or comparing his earlier statements with present one's, indirectly reducing the value of Patrick's findings or perception. I think everyone is bound to change his perception depending on his experiences and hence no point in comparing Patrick's quotes earlier with now. Rather as an Indian citizen, I can relate with Patrick's views and I respect it.
That is ad hominem, which usually means the guy is not a decent person. But it is an effective argument when the other person is a foreigner. The guy is a politician after all, defending a system put him in power. If Indian democracy is illegitimate we would then question his own legitimacy, so he could not possibly be nice about it. He is not a good person, which is very clear, but he is well prepared and argued well, that is what counts for being a politician. It does give you insights on what sort of people formed Indian government.
PAtrick Henry is a man of refinity! The word 'hypocrisy' is so overt and unnecessary! Aiyar indeed lacks discernment and subtlety! No wonder was suspended from his party for usage of acridly crass language...
Mani Shankar was a Congress MP, please show what special achievements done to India in his party rule and as a diplomat. Only crying for Modi Government. Seeking help from Pakistan to get his party back in power.
Congress elected Sonia. Is it not nepotism? So many political starwals existed in that party. Their experience gone to waste. Panchayati Raj is there at paper level. As Patrick said, those seats are bought. In Inda, democracy enables the moneyed to gain power and hence decision making is biased, hypocrisy. For the common man to voice his concern this form of governance is not sufficient. Power to choose should be given to the voter. Party systems in our country is a joke. Anybody can raise a party and scuttle the voting process. People are splintered in the name of caste, religion, region and sectarian politics is the lore. China a non democratic nation has succeeded beyond measure. It is an alternate way of governance that brought poverty down and upped economic growth as there is no need to grapple with the idiosyncrasies of democratic principles. But then does India need democratic way of governance? Yes. Even though a poor Indian is illiterate, no money on hand, he retains the power to elect his governing body according to the representation of his caste, language or region. In fractured state like India whose federal structure is brought out the way states were formed, India needs to grapple with such issues and I find as Patrick said self correcting and balanced ecosystems which will happen in due course of time. As for China, it is also fractured by sects but due to one party rule they could mobilize collective decision making and implementation. What India needs is leadership not based on nationalist or sectarian statistics. Unified India irrespective of the party in power in central govt, should keep India as a whole to empower each Indian living from Kashmir to Kanyakumari. I agree with Mr. French, that Indian institutions need to be strengthened in the wake of constitutional father's of our great country.
As far as the industrialists are concerned, they tried to criticise modi initially. But when modi arm twisted the CII, using the powerful gujarati lobby, the president of the CII, himself shamelessly went with a letter of apology to modi. That's how much they were concerned about the riots victims.. All they are worried about are their pockets.
he is saying mla's ,politicians are punished?did u know sasikala (held for more than 11 crore scam,potential murderer)ex chief minister of india is receiving vip treatement in jail
No democracy is perfect. The speakers should name a perfect in the world. Whatever kind of democracy we have in India, one thing is clear. We do not need lectures from anyone on the subject. We will do what is needed to correct if any corrections are needed. So stop lecturing. We are not a colony any more. As a free nation, the people will decide whatever is needed.
After huge 2014 victory(not considering 2019 ) modi's visit & his mocking in subtle way corruption & nepotism.. i find bit odd for audience in US or UK but now listening to these even after multiple court or SC ruling modi was proven not only innocent but also reformer.. left hypocrisy is just too much.. modi is right to mock these loonatics & Now Suhel's tone n thinking about modi is completely 6.. that's how you spot capitalist..
Total unsatisfactory speech... He said politicians are in jail but what would he say about them getting VIP treatment in jails, what does he have to say about caste and religion based politics which is cancer for India... He said there is corruption, nepotism, criminalization in democracy so he thinks all those things are alright?? No doubt he's also a corrupt politician
Don't listen this man. He is also former corrupt politician of one of the most corrupt party of India called Congress party. He has millions of dollars wealth and land in India. He is talented but that doesn't mean he is honest. These type of intelligent corrupt politicians in India are main culprit.
Mani shankar iyer,a typical Indian politician. His urge to defend the political wrongdoings and to condemn them as minority can be vividly seen in his speech. Also, his words about hierarchy in Indian politics were blasphemy. To quote Patrick French in the end, "But, your statistics are wrong".
With all the superb and brilliant replies and speeches, India is still a failure. Global poverty has been greatly reduced because of 1 country - China. Remove the numbers from China and the world global poverty statistic will show to have increased and because of 1 country - India.
While the population increased to 1.3 Billion, poverty has significantly come down. We pulled 138 million people out of poverty. We have more children in schools than ever before. And we'll have the largest young population in 2025, 160 million. You'll see the boom in India's economy. That upheaval will shock all.
Mani shankar is way too idealistic. All the fancy number that he threw around - 300000 self-governing bodies with millions of elected representatives, etc etc is completely meaningless. All those regions governed by those bodies are extremely underdeveloped and lack basic things like running water, electricity and toilets. Nothing works in india. Any average infrastructure project is delayed by several years, india the most inefficient and corrupt police, a non-functional judiciary where cases takes DECADES to finish and so forth...
Need a major change in our Democracy SUCH as Presidential form of the election with Right to recall - GOVT finances to be made public REAL TIME LIVE - Where is TAX payer money is being spent to made public REAL TIME LIVE
@rockyqw12 - We are ready to give small bribes every now and then for ease of life but only cry loud when we don't get work done after giving bribe or when we cant afford to give that bribe. Some people among us give large sum of bribe to get something that they don't deserve. I have seen almost every IT company employee including managers submitting forged medical bills of 15k to save tax of 5k per year.
Mr French, Please stop talking about UP as if UP is INDIA , dont make the white mans "namaste" om krishna mistake. Mani is pointing you in right direction. Mr French is biased and prejudiced and underinformed
India needs more discussion like this to happen regularly. Nothing is perfect, but people mature and evolve with time.
Well Mani is a very eloquent speaker, but he is missing the point made by Mr. French - 1. It's alarming that the system where the people in power or running for power are facing serious charges such as murder and attempted murder and 2. Even when these people are put in jail, they are not serving their time as they should be and manage to get unworthy benefits while being in jail.
2 G SCAM accused A RAJA is acquitted and came clean .. We can not promote bad people in politics thinking that the court will take care of their Crime or any wrongdoing.
you know Democracy has failed India when most of the Indians here are claiming that it has failed.
Yes of course, just as how the lack of dissent from chinese citizens is proof of the perfection of the chinese system.
@@surajs5913
The success of Chinese economy which is 5x more than India,when both of us began at the same level is an evidence that their system works better
@@Manish_Kumar_Singh so how can India hope to mimic chinese success?
Reduced labour rights? Not caring about environmental impacts at all? Mandatory work camps? 996 work culture? Or maybe "one child policy"?
Chinese problems are much worse than Indian problems. There entire demographic pyramid has been inverted due to the brutal enforcement of one child policy. This effect will be felt for the next 20 years, as the amount of people capable of contributing to the economy reduces.
This comes at a time when the Chinese Communist Party adopts more socialist methods, discourages capitalism and closes itself off from the reat of the world. Han nationalism is not sufficient for progress when the population is restricted from wider range of thought. The next 20 years will be the test of chinese system, just as how 1970 to 1990 was the fall of the USSR.
@@Manish_Kumar_Singh ruclips.net/video/l8wWoQ3_F00/видео.html
The beauty of china
@@surajs5913
You are selectively pointing out the missteps of theirs decision making without complementing their success. But even viewing from that angle they still have better standard of living, better technology infrastructure and overall well-being.
Don't pretend that we don't have 996 work culture or that having a no work environment due to bureaucratic and red tappe is better than having a work environment where people have a chance to earn freely, but with greater risk.
Just look at the millions of indian who think they are lucky to work as literally slaves in the gulf countries, insted of India.
And if you ever gave option to indian blue collar workers a choice to either Work in indian manufacturing industry or Chinese manufacturing industry, you will literally see barely anyone choosing India.
Now comming to population pyramids, the population pyramids of China is not too different from that of Japan or south Korea. If the decrease in younger population is due to one child policy, then the population will explode once the restriction are removed, but that hasn't happened in China.
It is common sense that as an economy progresses peope will start taking better more efficient and stophisticated jobs ,requiring less workforce and more rewarding.
They have achieved most of the dreams for which choose democracy to achieve.
Three cheers to Mani Shankar Aiyer for his clarity on any subject, frankness, and high class sense of humor all the time, all the way. Kind Regards! Sunder T (85 years old from Mumbai, India).
Bugati, check Democracy index an international organization that rank democratic nations. India is fairly high just below Italy.
If u still think Indian democracy is not efficient. Please write a letter to Democracy Index organization.
@@workhardt2 Yeah, you yourself - Go check now-
@@TheContrariann India has 280 million Muslims. That's more than any other country can handle. India is invincible in that respect. It's democracy goes to back to lichhavi in 600 BC which was a democratic republic.
Hi Sunder, I wonder how are you doing today!
"The exuberance of democracy leads to
undisciplined and disorderly conditions
which are inimical to development." - Lee Kuan Yew.
If you ask Suhel what he thinks of Narendra Modi, you'll get a different answer in the morning and a different one in the evening
That's OK .. Suhel is not that great and only his English is good not any point he makes
@@sureshpolali4616 That is because his perspectives on some affairs are not those of a specialist. With regard to business, however, he is illuminating, and understands politics very well, too.
Just found new respect for mani shankar.
Nice to hear Mani Shankar Iyer waxing eloquent about democracy. Only one wonders why it cannot be practiced in his own party. Wish he would give a similar discourse to the Gandhis. He would most likely get kicked out of Congress.
All of them are making the same argument. Democracy is great, it needs work in India.
Patrik French, huge respect for your study on India man ! Your books are great and I agree with you.
MANI SHANKAR has the ability to argue and say " RAVAN IS BETTER THAN RAM " ..
İndia should have more politicians like mani and his ilks... The more the better
I don't think that India would be even half of China or ¼ of usa in 50 years.
Look at India by 2050, call me a bull. That's just how it is. Compounding will make it happen. $10 trillion by 2035 is what I predict.
@@naiyayika yes let's see
Suhel seth's cheap shots at Mani cant hide the fact that he lost badly to Mani.Kudos Mani.Nice speech and rebuttal.
You can put Mani on any side and he will convince you for the side.. those are the Doon school debate skill.. but facts on ground about India's democracy are for all to see... He skirted around the issue of corruption, nepotism, and inheritance successfully and delivered a lecture on History.
U forgot genocides in India
@@evenbrown4753 the Canadian genocide is something you can't escape. What genocide does India have? We didn't establish a Hindu Republic. We have 280 million muslims. No nation in the world can handle that.
Whenever it comes to Indian democracy everybody starts to compare with iraq, pakistan,china etc 😁🙏... indian politics is slow poison ...
After the result of sohrabuddin I think Mani got the answer for his overconfident answers on loose system of democracy during Gandhi's regime
Don't get carried away by his words. Indian democracy got big flaws that are yet to be highlighted in the bigger picture. First of all, elections are not reliable, money is that all matters in India, people are being given false identity and money to vote for the candidates. Corrupt leaders are again and again coming into power because there are no alternatives, Democracy is just a label, people are frustrated with dysfunction of government institutions and we need serious changes in the democratic system of India.
"Power will go to rascals, rogues, freebooters. . . .
All leaders will be of low caliber & men of straw. . .
They'll have sweet tongues & silly hearts. . .
They will fight amongst themselves for power & the two countries will be
lost in political squabbles. . . .
A day would come when even air & water will be taxed.
He wrote this 64 years ago.
Incredibly we've worked very hard to prove him right.
Apparently these words were uttered by Winston Churchill on the topic of
granting independence.
Opens with an ad hominem and continues prattling on without ever refuting Patrick's central point. Classic politician.
Whatever be the case but one cann't deny that Mani is amazing speaker.
Loved Mani's arguments.. he is a ruthless, witty debater but more importantly has a clear point. Democracy may not be without its flaws, but we have yet to come up with a better system.
// Democracy may not be without its flaws, but we have yet to come up with a better system. //
that is really a subjective statement because there is no system in the world which is one size fits all. at different stages and different time-periods and different type of people different kinds of systems are best.
we can know this from the case of a simple family or a school. we don't allow kids to have democracy in their choice of foods, games, life choices and other things. parents and teachers constantly guide and tell them what type of foods they need to eat, what type of games to play and so on and on. a school teacher doesn't ask her class, children we will vote on whether to play a game or study the subject. because we know children are not that much developed mentally to make best decision in this case.
when they grow up degree of freedom allowed to them is also increased. when they reach college and then start working they get highest level of freedom even though that is doubted in case of india where even married people need to be told by their parents what decision to take in life but are quick to say democracy is the best. first have democracy in your families and on individual level. in the west, adults are free to make their own life choices so they have democracy from individual level to national level.
similar to above scenario people in different countries are at different levels of development both mentally and in the outer world. and if different people groups are at different capacities how can a one system fits all be any good?
so this is clearly not the case of one system fits all or that no better system exists. it is simply the case of different system are best for different peoples who are at different levels socially, mentally, economically etc.
and none of the developed countries, including in the west, became prosperous when they were as free and democratic as they are today. china's system which is also known as benevolent authoritarianism is at another alternative to democracy.
@plastof.. anyway thanks for taking time to reply to my comment .
Thanks to people like you Mani Shankar. It's been 10 years since you are out of power.
so ??
@@Liberty55555 people like him paved the path for Modi..his lack of control over his tongue is equally responsible
@@jaspreetmail possible . he said chaiwala cant be pm. now such statement solidifies resolve of his voter base and adds new voters.
@@Liberty55555 Where is he now? His political career is over. This guy is not at all sensible. It's evident from the debate that how he slams people in the debate: He calls outrightly the other hypocrites despite the other debaters had some factual correct info..Seriously he a classless loser who is ready to bad mouth. I'm glad about congress's defeat such jokers are out.
@@jaspreetmail why are you so much full of bad words against him. Every one has some flaws here and there . every one is hypocrite too
No matter what mani said is truth or wrong... as a Indian i feel proud that mani did trash patrick and sohail..... we don't need lectures from a foreigner and a man who stays in london for half of his life ...... and comment on our system . yes there are flaws nothing is perfect in this world so stop this bashing INDIA and Its democracy and Look in to those Country .... who in the name of democracy cancel's it;s citizen entering their own country with the reason national security ....(snowden)
praveen raj well said man...this shouid have been in the speech..👏👏
this person begged PAK to bring back them to power , what a shame , congress is behing democracy failure
My gosh my view's are totally changed bout Mani Shankar after watching this video and it just proves that how the godi media turns an "intellectual" into a "lunatic"
We have very few leaders who can represent us in an international platform .Mani Shankar ,Shashi Tharoor and Subramani swami make us proud when they present India in a foreign country .End of the day Knowledge counts ...
@I I The guy who may be repairing the fridge might have gone to a class where the teacher , taught him how to repair it. Speaking teaching and sharing knowledge is also relevant .A mechanic without knowledge can spoil the fridge .
Mani Shankar Aiyar is a good debater irrespective of the party he supports in India.. Very well read and articulate speaker...
he is of course good debater for all low i.q. people like you who can't see through his deceptive lies.
I do agree Mani's Convincing speech
With wrong facts and data, one can convince anything under the sun
@@sureshpolali4616 how is it wrong, my liege?😆
Pseudo pessimism is the next Indian thing. Economy or democracy. It's sickening.
Also his was proper selection of words with no insult to Indian democracy. Rather it was an argument about the way it has been carried out with proper facts. What I feel is that it is pointless to hamper his image by attacking him just because he is pointing out flaws in our system.
Mani is a rare gem in Indian public life.
And Suhel is a not that rare american diamond.
Today Mani Shankar would have spoken in favour of the motion
Human development hasn't improved. We have too much democracy that the dead bodies are floating in the Ganges and no leader would take the accountability.
he is the only sensible man after jaswant singh and oum puri, huge respect for you sir from Pakistan
Om toh theek se bol
@@Rohit-ne2elnhi bol sakta hai yeh
Indian political parties give ticket and position to families members - Nehru to Rahul, MGR to Jai Lalita, Karunanidhi family etc. Zamindari in the garb of democracy.
Well, India is a feudal democracy. People still believe and vote for leader's families because they trust them to uphold the values of their predecessors. However, this is a mindset and process that's changing.
@@tgsaravind Not Changing sir.. A legendary ESridharan Sir was defeated by 4th std fail person in the recently held election. Do not expect people's voting will change ths system It will not . We need legislation - Why can not we introduce ENTRANCE EXAM for people who want to contest election ? . QUALITY AT SOURCE --- Election should happen in stages - ENTRANCE EXAM -- SHORT LISTE _ FINAL etc.. Need to reaaly introduce major QILAITY IMPROVEMENT PROGRAM for politicians
Though I hate CONGRESS to the core... But I like Mani Shankar's arguments against the motion
@rockyqw12 - I agree that research by Mr french is much more than one would expect a non-Indian journalist to know and raises serious points that would be decisive for victory in other debates. However,as I understand, topic of this debate is whether Indian democracy is a weakness of republic of India that can potentially threaten its existence. And I think in absence of democracy India would have got splintered into various little segments along lines of Religion, language, caste and ethnicity.
I think India, of all the countries in the world, is ready for Communism.
Its the ONLY way to unite the federation.
The fact India stayed together for so long is already a miracle of sorts.
regardless of these English speaking slaves/socialists/pseudo-secularists and ex - colonial masters, India will become the largest economy in the world again, within 3 to 4 decades.
After all, India was the mother of modern democracy, largest democracy, oldest democracy and also the largest economy in the world for much of past 2000 yrs.
India was the largest economy in the world with a GDP of 25% average, until the time British invasion in the 18th century - Angus Maddison for OECD countries
You are in a fool's paradise...
He is not following statics; Just he is talkative
what else does he have. facts don't support him on the ground so he has to insert humour and lies
Patrick is amazingly correct and this is an indian who is saying this. India has numerous issues and it has MPs and MLAs who once wins forgets what they were selected for.
Democracy has never failed in India. It is not at its best in India either. Part of the problem is the way independence came about in 1947 - which was in short notice. Gandhi and Nehru knew that it was literally impossible to form a country that can be self sufficient in such a ridiculously short time. The fallacies in the way democratic institutions are run are declining, but all we need is a leader similar to Nehru who can influence our moral and intellect to rise up to that challenge.
Patrick's question👏👏👏
What are you going to replace Democracy with? Do not let perfection prevent the good. In a Democracy politicans are denigrated. Perhaps excessively denigrated? I don't mind when my opponents are denigrated but not mine! "Trump Derangement Syndrome" 😀 "Biden Dementia Syndrome " is 😣 The suggested alternative, Monarchy has its problems also. If all people were angels there would be no need for government. 🤔😉😏
He is a misfit to talk about democracy as he never accepted and respected the democratically elected government of India under the leadership of PM Narendra Modi by 1.3 billion people of India.
and sir who gets selected as representative .. only a certain class or a particular family .. how to solve that getting elected in india is really difficult task you can clear upsc exam in india but there are very less chances to get elected in india unless you are rich enough or your parents are mps/mlas as hennry said
"Served one years under the dictatorship of Ho Chin Min, two years under the dictatorship of Saddam Hussain and three years under Zia Ul Haq........and rest of years under???? Gandhi's.....?
Democracy democracy democracy India India India
I think democracy is crippling us.
Indian government should be like American government.
There should be one head to take decisions without any pressure from party. And we would choose that one head!
You are great dear Mani
This man Mani Shankar Aiyar is a rogue and classist.
awsome stuff.... suhel seth is so right... you can never finish with the gandhis
Winston Churchill said the comment before Independance
Patrick questions....though!!!! bravo👏👏
The Indian democracy despite its many flaws does very well as far as representation of most communities/regions/languages/religions/castes etc are concerned compared to a autocracy. To a large extent, it does provides security and freedom of speech. Except for the unfortunate Kashmiris and the NE, the basic rights have been largely preserved. HOWEVER, is that all a democracy can aspire to - why not development? This is where the lack of merit in the election process hurts India.
hinduism is democratic religion where you can abuse gods, christianity and islam have set death penalty for such thing. see where are they today and where is hinduism. democracy only works where these three conditions are in perfect balance:
1. society has been homogenised like in case of almost all successful democracies be it east or west.
2. most people are educated and capable of having little bit of inquisitive minds
3. majority people have ethics
none of the conditions are there in india so naturally it is a failed democracy
Sharan really what about sikhs, Dalits and Indian Muslims except Kashmiris
Ok
Where are we today because of democracy
Wow, mani Shankar Saheb, that's how you conduct a debate, not like the college type of petty jibes and potshots that mMr Seth was trying to take.
we need the power to criticise everyone and everything publicly and without fear of political fractions in disguise of anonymity and any attack on anyone for criticising someone or some organisation must be held accountable and must be dealt with punitive action.....and for that we need a centralised and autonomous law enforcement system which can't be influenced by anyone or anything and only accountable to Supreme Court, not even The President of India
I feel the reality lies somewhere between what Aiyar and Suhel claimed. Biases are an integral part of debates
12:50 to 12:53 Gems!!!! Bravo Patrick!!!
At the end "No one is perfect"
I strongly disagree Mani Shankar....... He is trying fool INDIAN peoples...
as usual
So you think democracy in India has failed?? I don't think so.
Yes...by being born in a particular family one can't be debarred from entering into politics if he has merit but what about Rahul Gandhi Mani jiii?
Lol. Mani is like the contractor who shows a house with no roof and justifies that no house is perfect. He is downplaying the growing corruption, nepotism and both national/ state lvl populism that are eroding those very checks on power he extolled like courts etc. People like these will deny threats until it completely consumes them.
Democracy is based on ideology wherein people views are respected. Mani started with spoiling Patrick French's reputation by highlighting or comparing his earlier statements with present one's, indirectly reducing the value of Patrick's findings or perception. I think everyone is bound to change his perception depending on his experiences and hence no point in comparing Patrick's quotes earlier with now. Rather as an Indian citizen, I can relate with Patrick's views and I respect it.
That is ad hominem, which usually means the guy is not a decent person. But it is an effective argument when the other person is a foreigner. The guy is a politician after all, defending a system put him in power. If Indian democracy is illegitimate we would then question his own legitimacy, so he could not possibly be nice about it.
He is not a good person, which is very clear, but he is well prepared and argued well, that is what counts for being a politician. It does give you insights on what sort of people formed Indian government.
PAtrick Henry is a man of refinity! The word 'hypocrisy' is so overt and unnecessary! Aiyar indeed lacks discernment and subtlety! No wonder was suspended from his party for usage of acridly crass language...
What a debate 👏
Mani Shanker Aiyar doing well to be Congress member and proving his loyalties to Gandhi family mostly is Firoz Ghandhi
when India rise again,the whole world will see wonderful thing happening in front of their eyes which they can not ignore anymore
Mani Shankar was a Congress MP, please show what special achievements done to India in his party rule and as a diplomat. Only crying for Modi Government. Seeking help from Pakistan to get his party back in power.
How beautiful was my valley before Modi
tibet lack of freedom
1 40 lakh office bearer 2 only necessary condition not sufficient 3 anti incumbancy 4 crimal still in courts
#india #hmmm #introspection #democracy #achillesheel #ecosystem #criminalization #money #loksabha #politics #policy #law #courts #juryofpeers #dictatorship #subcontinent #power Sefra Correa Marielyn Correa Wilson Correa #panchayat #selfgovernment
Lol, I'm not a fan of Mani Shankar Iyer but his point about Anti-incumbency is spot on.
No system of governance is perfect.
Congress elected Sonia. Is it not nepotism? So many political starwals existed in that party. Their experience gone to waste.
Panchayati Raj is there at paper level. As Patrick said, those seats are bought. In Inda, democracy enables the moneyed to gain power and hence decision making is biased, hypocrisy.
For the common man to voice his concern this form of governance is not sufficient.
Power to choose should be given to the voter. Party systems in our country is a joke. Anybody can raise a party and scuttle the voting process.
People are splintered in the name of caste, religion, region and sectarian politics is the lore. China a non democratic nation has succeeded beyond measure. It is an alternate way of governance that brought poverty down and upped economic growth as there is no need to grapple with the idiosyncrasies of democratic principles.
But then does India need democratic way of governance?
Yes. Even though a poor Indian is illiterate, no money on hand, he retains the power to elect his governing body according to the representation of his caste, language or region.
In fractured state like India whose federal structure is brought out the way states were formed, India needs to grapple with such issues and I find as Patrick said self correcting and balanced ecosystems which will happen in due course of time.
As for China, it is also fractured by sects but due to one party rule they could mobilize collective decision making and implementation.
What India needs is leadership not based on nationalist or sectarian statistics.
Unified India irrespective of the party in power in central govt, should keep India as a whole to empower each Indian living from Kashmir to Kanyakumari.
I agree with Mr. French, that Indian institutions need to be strengthened in the wake of constitutional father's of our great country.
very well spoken mr mani shankar aiyar
❤❤❤
As far as the industrialists are concerned, they tried to criticise modi initially. But when modi arm twisted the CII, using the powerful gujarati lobby, the president of the CII, himself shamelessly went with a letter of apology to modi. That's how much they were concerned about the riots victims.. All they are worried about are their pockets.
he is saying mla's ,politicians are punished?did u know sasikala (held for more than 11 crore scam,potential murderer)ex chief minister of india is receiving vip treatement in jail
No democracy is perfect. The speakers should name a perfect in the world. Whatever kind of democracy we have in India, one thing is clear. We do not need lectures from anyone on the subject. We will do what is needed to correct if any corrections are needed. So stop lecturing. We are not a colony any more. As a free nation, the people will decide whatever is needed.
Mulayam singh yadav after dieting and reducing weight.
Here Here... Mani Shankar Alyar:)
Modern state of China is more flawed?
Khurmiful Chinese system is the best
It's good every body is enjoying not like tv debate these days
After huge 2014 victory(not considering 2019 ) modi's visit & his mocking in subtle way corruption & nepotism.. i find bit odd for audience in US or UK but now listening to these even after multiple court or SC ruling modi was proven not only innocent but also reformer.. left hypocrisy is just too much.. modi is right to mock these loonatics
& Now Suhel's tone n thinking about modi is completely 6.. that's how you spot capitalist..
Smashing delivery unable to stop Indian landslide unfortunately
Total unsatisfactory speech... He said politicians are in jail but what would he say about them getting VIP treatment in jails, what does he have to say about caste and religion based politics which is cancer for India... He said there is corruption, nepotism, criminalization in democracy so he thinks all those things are alright?? No doubt he's also a corrupt politician
Don't listen this man. He is also former corrupt politician of one of the most corrupt party of India called Congress party. He has millions of dollars wealth and land in India. He is talented but that doesn't mean he is honest. These type of intelligent corrupt politicians in India are main culprit.
Congress is regretting for retrospective
Is Suhel Seth a hypocrite? Seems something different here in respect to Narendra Modi. Ofcourse we came to know his MeToo episode now.
Mani shankar iyer,a typical Indian politician. His urge to defend the political wrongdoings and to condemn them as minority can be vividly seen in his speech.
Also, his words about hierarchy in Indian politics were blasphemy. To quote Patrick French in the end, "But, your statistics are wrong".
Keshav he said that because Mani heard Patrick wrong. Patrick had said 30% and Main heard just 30. It's human error.
Lenoah Chacko , This shows how much he listens to his opponent's speech.
Well, he wouldn't have raised that point if he hadn't been listening. He just didn't listen properly enough.
That's what I'm saying
Alright.
With all the superb and brilliant replies and speeches, India is still a failure. Global poverty has been greatly reduced because of 1 country - China. Remove the numbers from China and the world global poverty statistic will show to have increased and because of 1 country - India.
While the population increased to 1.3 Billion, poverty has significantly come down. We pulled 138 million people out of poverty. We have more children in schools than ever before. And we'll have the largest young population in 2025, 160 million. You'll see the boom in India's economy. That upheaval will shock all.
@@naiyayika And yet 60% of global poverty is contributed by India alone.
Mani shankar is way too idealistic. All the fancy number that he threw around - 300000 self-governing bodies with millions of elected representatives, etc etc is completely meaningless.
All those regions governed by those bodies are extremely underdeveloped and lack basic things like running water, electricity and toilets. Nothing works in india. Any average infrastructure project is delayed by several years, india the most inefficient and corrupt police, a non-functional judiciary where cases takes DECADES to finish and so forth...
it is always that are lying about their own country.
Pointless discussion..
See what kind of discussion happened during UPA rule.
Headed nowhere. Wastage of time and money.
Need a major change in our Democracy SUCH as Presidential form of the election with Right to recall - GOVT finances to be made public REAL TIME LIVE - Where is TAX payer money is being spent to made public REAL TIME LIVE
🙏👑🫡👏..
👍👌..
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modi nows that corruption in india is cancer. he should take harsh actions on it and then democratie will come closer and all indians will benefit.
@rockyqw12 - We are ready to give small bribes every now and then for ease of life but only cry loud when we don't get work done after giving bribe or when we cant afford to give that bribe. Some people among us give large sum of bribe to get something that they don't deserve.
I have seen almost every IT company employee including managers submitting forged medical bills of 15k to save tax of 5k per year.
this is guys from mailaduthurai constituency, he know how to buy the vote bank for money..
Mr French, Please stop talking about UP as if UP is INDIA , dont make the white mans "namaste" om krishna mistake.
Mani is pointing you in right direction. Mr French is biased and prejudiced and underinformed