Why Critical Thinking is Dead - Peter Boghossian
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- Опубликовано: 31 май 2024
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Peter Boghossian is an American philosopher. For ten years he was a professor of philosophy at Portland State University, but resigned following the college’s response to ‘the grievance studies affair’. This entailed Boghossian - alongside James Lindsay and Helen Pluckrose - submitting bogus papers to peer-reviewed publications related to gender studies and other similar disciplines, in order to satirise the poor academic quality of such fields. More recently Boghossian has been engaging in what he calls, ‘street epistemology’ where he encourages people in public places to examine their opinions, why they hold them, and what it would take for them to change their minds.
Check out his channel here: / @drpeterboghossian
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Stand-up comedians Konstantin Kisin (@konstantinkisin) and Francis Foster (@francisjfoster) make sense of politics, economics, free speech, AI, drug policy and WW3 with the help of presidential advisors, renowned economists, award-winning journalists, controversial writers, leading scientists and notorious comedians.
00:00 Introduction
00:33 Lessons Learnt From Street Epistemology
08:29 Does the Education System Fail to Teach Critical Thinking?
13:30 How Peter Teaches Critical Thinking
14:33 Active Failures in Education
17:49 Selection Bias in Street Epistemology
20:13 Monoculture Taught in US Colleges
22:33 Sponsor Message: MUD\WTR
24:01 Being Confronted With the Other Side of the Argument
28:09 Teaching People to Separate Ideas From Identities
31:20 Teachers Indoctrinating Future Generations
39:27 How Do We Fix Our Education & Media Institutions?
46:20 Sponsor Message: GiveSendGo
47:32 How Do We Listen to Understand?
54:44 Can This Ideology be Corrected Without Catastrophe?
1:00:08 'America Marching Towards Hospice'
1:08:18 What's the One Thing We're Not Talking About?
JOIN our Locals community to hear *Peter* answer audience questions.
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CHAPTERS👇
00:00 Introduction
00:33 Lessons Learnt From Street Epistemology
08:29 Does the Education System Fail to Teach Critical Thinking?
13:30 How Peter Teaches Critical Thinking
14:33 Active Failures in Education
17:49 Selection Bias in Street Epistemology
20:13 Monoculture Taught in US Colleges
22:33 Sponsor Message: MUD\WTR
24:01 Being Confronted With the Other Side of the Argument
28:09 Teaching People to Separate Ideas From Identities
31:20 Teachers Indoctrinating Future Generations
39:27 How Do We Fix Our Education & Media Institutions?
46:20 Sponsor Message: GiveSendGo
47:32 How Do We Listen to Understand?
54:44 Can This Ideology be Corrected Without Catastrophe?
1:00:08 'America Marching Towards Hospice'
1:08:18 What's the One Thing We're Not Talking About?
Please cross-post on alternative platforms. Thanks
a socratic struggle session is still a struggle session.
THIS MAN IS FUCKING BRILLIANT! PLEASE HAVVE HIM ON REGULARLY!
When I finished Weapons of Mass Instruction I realized that there is no saving the current public education system. More than a hundred years ago it was designed to churn out moronic adult children. A new system of independent small schools not chained down by bureaucrats is the way forward.
Id like to give my condolences for Francis. Watching him get killed like that at the 40ish minute mark was tough. My thoughts are with you, Konstantin. I know you were close
Thank you so much for having me on your show. I really enjoyed our conversation.
The pleasure was all ours! Thanks for coming on and we'll see you soon!
Peter not sure if you will read this but thank you for all your work could you please do a lecture series / course on Critical thinking / philosophy but understand your very busy again thank you
Peter, usually you only present paths of thought I've trod to death but this time --excuse the mixed metaphor-- you gave me food for thought.
I agree with jake above, could you do a workshop on critical thinking so that us strangers could learn and reform out thinking to be better than we are or have been taught
Peter, good deeds won't go unnoticed. Thank you for your efforts to teach, to teach to improve our children, children's. From a Forrest in Australia. 😊❤😊
Peter is like a hero in an 80s revenge movie, "they murdered his honest debate, they tried to indoctrinate his students, and they made his dog use genderless pronouns - at first he couldn't even speak because it was so stupid, but now he's back...and he is *PISSED*.."
LOL
Must read your post with the dramatic voiceover man from the 80s too.
Somebody call Space Ice.
this reminded me of Gandhi II from UHF
lol😎
I finished high school in the late 80's and you could see the deliberate distraction away from critical thinking (and into feelings) even then. By the time I'd been working for ten years (around 9/11) you could REALLY see the effect in young/new employees, who had a strange excess of faux (and narc like) over-confidence but nothing to back it up. My best friend's kid asked his dad and I not to be 'racist' around his visiting friends recently, which was sad as we've never said anything remotely racist/bigoted around him but have regularly spoken critically about our mutual love of films/music. The kids have unfortunately been 'taught' that anything critical based is a negative, mean and therefore racist while encouraged to virtue signal instead to over-compensate and conform....like creepy cultists.
I think there are major reasons for the shift in critical thinking:
- Atheism has replaced Religion, yet a belief system has always remained a need to a lot of people (to feel part of a greater cause), and this has subsequently replaced religion with that of politics/political correctness. This is why critical/logical thinking that conflicts with their narratives are now re-labelled "hate speech" (herecy).
- There is a current pandemic of loneliness and wanting to belong/be accepted by others. When you are constantly validated for having the correct opinions, then there is no desire to critically challenge them through the application of logic and reason and risk exile.
- Social media has given a voice to people nobody would otherwise listen to, and that includes the good, the bad and the deranged.
- Politicians, as a result, play more on presentation and saying the correct things and presenting bad/incompetent/corrupt actions as "a good for society" and are often forced to adhere to political correctness due to said social media out of fear of being ousted/shamed.
- Women entering positions of power/politics has lead to more people voting on the basis of emotions (as the majority are biologically more driven by emotional thinking), followed by the men who want their attention by agreeing with them on every issue (simping).
- Special interest groups/umbrella corporations/big tech/mainstream media seeing an opportunity for more power and narrative control by pushing politically correct opinion, hiding evil actions (justifying censorship/cancel culture) behind "good intentions".
- The likes of China and Russia funding Western education systems with ideas/activist who push Far-Left ideologies, knowing full well (through first hand experience) how this can tear a country apart from within and weaken it through social conflict.
Just my 2 cents..
@@tovsteh Those are all good points and equally big contributions to the sad decline and deliberate devolution into less (of more easily-led/manipulated control) overall.
I trained and worked in manipulation my whole adult life (after going to the Joseph Goebbels university to learn how to win 'friends' and influence others....to sell them stuff they probably don't need) where it was very clear early on that the easiest way to manipulate folks was through their ideological belief (or lack of belief) systems while just over-telling them something pretty (and self-serving) despite reality, where the simple questioning nature of critical-thinking clearly becomes THE greatest threat (and then enemy) to anything ideologically devolved.
.....but the manipulation of the easily-led (and help from the useful-idiot grifters) has now gone so far into the Twilight Zone that I'm not sure my services are even required anymore in our increasingly creepy and (NOT) Very Brave New World Disorder.
I wish folks would read, learn and understand from the history which I learnt from as a part of my 'training' at uni, because none of it is remotely new and it has all sadly happened before multiple times, where there are now just more tools to further manipulate via what we already knew a long time ago regarding people in general and the human condition.
Yeah, lot of really dumb youngsters about nowadays. Fragile. Bonkers, too.
@@tovstehtotally agree!!
Might want to read my newest comment. The Dept of edu deliberately created curriculum to remove critical thinking skills.
I'm a high school teacher. Man, I wish I could sit down with people and tell them how completely screwed the education system is right now. Every day I come home frustrated at the lack of expectations, discipline, rigor, and general academic integrity - all of it sacrificed in the name of diversity, equity, and inclusivity. Things have been trending this way for many, *many* years which is why it is all so deeply entrenched in the system. I often tell my conservative friends that we "lost the war in education before we even knew we were fighting one."
It's such a mess and it is so depressing.
It is intended! John Taylor Gatto had experience of streetwise children to be able to draw impressive conclusions. Our mental and social skill is and have been since its conception under attack. On a question of whether we would make it out from under this yoke he answered 'we are up against six thousand years of sophistication'. Here origin of words might push your thinking in an interesting direction. We call teachers a PEDAGOG. John traced its origin to Egypt. Pedagogs was used to lead children into slavery. We ,everyone, need to realise being under attack from a very sophisticated stratagem.
Same boat. Every weekend I question what my job actually is . I feel like there's something I'm not getting.
i left teaching two years ago. I taught for four years. I went from complaining every day about the disrespect I was given and everything about my job to now loving my job. I work with only adults now and they're all professional. Public school is glorified babysitting.
Losing befor you understand you are at war..
That is the trade mark of a stratagem working all around you. It aimes at shaping your mind.
The text 'The Great American Adventure' is a good read. Also understanding what happened in ww2 around Major Racey Jordan and his reason to keep a good Dairy.
@@futureinventor thank you. It's been an issue throughout history.
"People deserve dignity, ideas don't deserve dignity." I think this should be baked into everyone's mind.
Not everyone deserve dignity.
The problem is that many people have difficulty separating ideas from identities. Giving up the ground of "I won't attack your identity" means you are defenseless against an identitarian.
We're going through a the equivalent of a rapid global intellectual dark age, but due to the speed of change I'm hoping the renaissance is just around the corner.
Same here.
Hum- will the rising use of Ai by human make that renaissance more likely or less?
I’d fear things are already too far gone if it weren’t for discussions like this one, and tbh things might actually already be too far gone…
@@Gawillamon I am sure there are MANY people who dont believe the cult like nonsense. But there could be a swing in the other direction (i.e. non woke) and that could be just as ugly and just as devoid of critical thought
Same, I’m homeschooling my kids for this reason.
As a pensioner i can tell you what you believed in your younger years becomes very unimportant later.
Our beliefs indeed change as we get older. But to dismiss this is to say that our beliefs don't affect our decisions at the time they are made.
We need more Peter boghossian's
We have James Lindsay and Helen Pluckrose - and also Brett and Heather, survivors of Evergreen.
The suspense is killing me. Please tell us.
@@funkyskypilot😂 The education system really has failed
And also Warren Smith
Andrew Doyle, Kellie J, Jon Haidt, Helen Joyce etc etc they're out there.
Thank God.
Critical thinking is not dead. It's on Life support. It can be found though in the hearts and minds of those who like me had to flee tyrannical communist dictatorship.
A very good point. I am an example of this.
to where?
On life support and reviving - We Hope! Appreciate you making this comment.
”Propaganda is a monologue that is not looking for an answer, but an echo.” - W. H. Auden
"Every record has been destroyed or falsified, every book rewritten, every picture has been repainted, every statue and street building has been renamed, every date has been altered. And the process is continuing day by day and minute by minute. History has stopped. Nothing exists except an endless present in which the Party is always right." - George Orwell
This is why they want to digitize everything. Much easier for the ministry of truth to alter things.
Only read this book in last two years. That was by chance too. Being over 55 I’ve experienced the whole change 70’s, 80’s excetra. Yes it is frightening in many ways but we have to still hope that George’s book remains a fictional piece of literature and not an ‘I told you what was going to happen’.
Too late@@juliaogara8794
Great and poignant quotes!
In my final 2 years of high school in Australia back in the late 1970s, the secondary school curriculum had a compulsory subject called "critical thinking". It was by far my favorite subject, because it encouraged honest fact-based debate, and a healthy respect for the opinions of others. This subject was abandoned in the 1980s. We are paying the price now, as we have taught our children to be mindless idiots who accept whatever claptrap the mass market media feeds them. Its dire.
We still had it Victoria in 1980. It was on the English exam, so no HSC if you failed that question. A wonderful part of the subject - so useful once an adult and having to decide what was true ancc ehat was nonsense.
Similar in Tassie.
Didn’t have it in NSW. Sounds great. That said I was lucky enough to attend a Catholic school with lots of religious. Lessons was a stream of questions like, so why do you think that? Give me three reasons why you are wrong. Is truth real? Can God be the absence of evil?
I still remember these lessons 45 years later.
I took the International Baccalaureate (I.B.) program in North America in the 90s and it was still taught. Fantastic foundational skill.
Simply enforcing the reintroduction of that lesson would be hugely powerful, now you mention it!
The Socratic method has actively been discouraged for a while now, lots of my friends kids have never learnt to write an argumentative essay and have been graded negatively by their ideologically devolved teachers if they ever write non-compliantly. We had extra (and forced) ideological heavy classes when I was at uni in the early 90's, where we just sadly learnt to write what the ideologue-teachers wanted in order to just complete the nonsense classes.
Thank God I was at university between 1963 and 1968 - In the UK for my BA and the USA for my Masters.
Kids can still learn at home. I encourage that alternate views are explored when discussing ideologies. I have an obvious Libertarian leaning but you will find a range of political literature on my shelf, from Marx to Hitler, from Mussolini to Rothbard.
I guess my 17 yo is very lucky, then, because writing from different perspectives is part of her humanities homework and they have meaty and diverse discussions in class, where all are encouraged to speak, no matter the popularity of the comment. I think there is hope still.
@@saltburner2that was a LONG time ago😮
I taught in a law school in the early 2000's. My students were ill-educated. They knew no history so to speak of and used the English language like it was a second language and they had no first language.
In my experience, the status that law schools once had has been diluted. I have several friends with children that are in law school. I’ve known these children for literally their whole life. None of them have shown me anything beyond being thoroughly average, if that.
I work in middle school really good district and whoa 🤯 I could tell you STORIES!!!! Critical thinking is not on the agenda.
If a child dares to use critical thinking and verbalises their thoughts in school they are likely to be punished in some way.
That depends mainly on where they live.
Where do you live Paul - North Korea? Students in the UK are actively encouraged to think critically and articulate their thoughts verbally and in writing. England and Wales examining boards AQA, EDEXCEL, OCR etc award the highest marks to students who can display higher critical thinking skills in their answers.
@@leskeen1179 As long as they’re not critical about the lefts sacred cows.
I agree with Paul. Schools have a pie chart now of good and bad behaviour. Red v Green.
Critical thinking, especially where the teacher is challenged, is certain to turn your pie red.
@@leskeen1179 Students in the UK are 'rewarded' for 'critical thinking' only as far as it affirms positions that are ideologically approved by those running the classes and marking the scripts. The specs in the social sciences are a reflection of the prevailing ideology and the marks are generally awarded in line with the candidate's ability to parrot what they've been taught. Before 'looking down' on the likes of N.Korea, remember not so long ago the UK population was locked indoors and prevented from exercising all sorts of 'freedoms' and any application of 'critical thinking' to the new dogma was definitely not 'rewarded' positively.
‘An unexamined life is a life not worth living’
- Socrates
That would be "the unexamined life is not worth living for man" (ὁ δὲ ἀνεξέταστος βίος οὐ βιωτὸς ἀνθρώπῳ). And he was right, of course.
Become solipsistic and self absorbed. Got it, thanks👍
_"If you are living a life worth documenting,_
_you won't be the one documenting it."_
I miss when we debated in my family. My uncle loved it and was amazing. He would even switch sides if he saw you changing your mind, just for fun. But the next gen was getting increasingly sensitive and aggressive in debating (Went from intentional attacks to hurt intentionally instead of winning on merit to lately declaring me evil and storming off for saying one thing and not grovelling but protesting I didn't mean what they thought I meant.), just as I was learning to be more rational from him. Then Tr&mp and c@vid, suddenly even he struggled with debate and everyone only listened to their increasingly tight echo chamber. Now only me and his son can debate, in private.
I had an uncle who did that, too. I loved it. Great intellectual exercise, taking a horse out of the barn and letting it stretch its legs.
I began teaching on the secondary level and within three years moved to the college level.
From there I transitioned to the university level, eventually teaching graduate courses and becoming a University Supervisor for Student Teachers. I got to see the cesspool that is American education on all levels---from pre-K through graduate school and doctoral programs. In one of my graduate classes two students had to be dropped from the course and then from the program because they were unable to write a complete sentence; academic writing was a foreign language to them; both were reading on the 5th grade level on a good day; critical thinking skills were non-existent. Thirty years ago the curriculum
began its dumbing down process----lockstep with the multicultural and diversity movements. Instead of encouraging students to aim for excellence, educators on the federal and state levels aimed for mediocrity----everything was allowed to slide, from disciplinary problems to homework to the curriculum. Social promotion has been the norm for years now. The end result: The federal and state governments deliberately looked to create an education system whereby students don't have to learn anything----because every subject is somehow magically racist by design. Minorities and all students were told that
functional illiteracy was acceptable. Math and science courses were denigrated and vilified because they were for nerdy white kids. Scholastic achievement was ridiculed in the black community, and parents embraced the dumbing down of the curriculum because it meant their children could continue their spotty attendance record, and be passed along from grade to grade without having to learn much. Colleges and universities also embraced
this plan. For example, literature majors years ago studied Shakespeare---sometimes for two semesters. Today, English departments at many colleges and universities don't even offer a course in Shakespearean drama because students complained the language in the plays was too difficult to read. Instead, trendy courses featuring pop culture literature are often the norm. Students' self-esteem and their ability to relate to the material are more important than quality of content or any critical thinking skills that the literary canon
demands. "I feel" is what counts. Critical thinking is a seen as something to be avoided because if students and parents could "think," then they'd realize they were opting for a bottom of the barrel education for their children. The goal is to produce students who can't think, who rely on the system for everything, who question nothing because they are told what to believe and never criticize the system that's keeping them malleable to achieve that quiescent, unthinking populace that is so desirable for social and political control.
The education system is a mess----and if Americans could "think," they'd realize that the federal and state government mandates for education are not doing their children any favors. Rather, those so-called "reforms" are designed to keep children, teens and adults as a permanent underclass unable to critically think and analyze issues. Mediocrity is the norm today, and the chilling prospect of a future fueled by imposed equality and DEI is seen in Kurt Vonnegut's short story, "Harrison Bergeon." Read that story, and you'll see exactly where the educational system and the government wants people to go in the 21st century.
Critical thought: neither wanted nor encouraged. Think at your own risk.
Critical think has been replaced with thinking with your feelings. Its easier and more enjoyable to be outraged about something than it is understanding the complexities and historical events of an issue.
But it only works for a very short time, then you need to be outraged again…like a drug
And to get to the step about valuing feelings over fact, you have to constantly demoralize the population with subversive media that leaves people feeling down & craving comfort or a solution to their latest clickbait problems.
This sums up Democrats in America perfectly. Upset about George Floyd, they support defunding police, crime rises and police quit. Covid is dangerous to some people, they support closing schools for 18+ months because they’re hysterical and scared , kids fall way behind, mental health suffers, families are stressed. They see racism against immigrants and minorities, they support sanctuary cities, those cities get overrun by illegals and hurt citizens. The list goes on. They’re very emotional and don’t use their brain to ask the simple question “what happens next?”
Thinking with your feelings isn't Thinking, is it?
@@leifiverson8549 Nope.
They teached us what to think, not how to think. It took me many years to deprogram myself. But now I'm ready. I live the truth. The only way to be.
They taught
@@tucoramirez3333you beat me to it.
It helps to have a standard to go by. Otherwise, how do you decide which human to believe? You still can’t know Truth. Some facts are still open to interpretation. Unless you dig deep and look at the implications thruout history, lots of facts sound one way and are actually another.
Yeah, not to be a grammar Nazi, just trying to be helpful: They taught...
Oh my brethren grammer Nazis, my sisters and kin!! 🤗 I try to refrain from correcting people but after so many decades of copy editing (a job that no longer exists) and teaching English as a foreign language, I often just can't help myself.
Peter is one of the few voices that has the balance needed to fix this problem. It’s not left or right, but rather focused on the systems of improvement no matter who is in control.
Missing from all these discussions is the primary thing tanking education: KIDS DO NOT READ FOR PLEASURE. Most of my complex language skills, 3/4 of the content I ever got, was from my own reading. It enabled me to come to class and question what I was being taught (I was a total pain in the ass to my teachers because I was usually correct!) And by middle school I'd identified the teachers who indocrinated rather than taught (or were just poor teachers); they resented bringing up other facts and arguments, while the good teachers welcomed them. The absolute fundamental key to independent thinking is independent reading. Of ANYTHING, but initially preferably of fiction, biography, history. There are a ton of excellent books out there, mostly written over 50 years ago (the Landmark history series is brilliant). How about starting a national organization of reading and discussion clubs where kids discuss what they've read--first learning (and working out) a set of rules for civil discussion?
I just ran into Peter a few evenings ago in a local hometown bar/restaurant. Got to visit with him a bit and shake his hand. Guy is approachable and super humble. Wish I’d have known he had done this interview at the time.
3 persons I respect a lot. Peter deserves a bigger audience. Very interesting person and channel.
My kids are grown now but in the early 2000’s , my child’s elementary math teacher told the class that Barrock Obama should be elected because he was of color. My kid comes home so happy with this morsel of understanding about the adult world. I was livid. Presidents, nor anyone else, should not be chosen based upon melanin abundance. But back to what relates to this conversation…the teacher was hired to teach 5th grade math, not politics. Teachers need to teach their subjects without sharing their opinions.
Was told today that the history teacher where my husband teaches actually prayed in class that Trump not win the election. He goes on daily rampages against Republicans. It has, of course, had the opposite effect on some of the kids, who secretly confide in my husband what the other teachers say and do in class. Btw, even in 2000, the teacher was probably hired in great part due to his politics and not at all due to his ability to do or teach math. It's been a long time since I even met a math teacher who could do or even understand math. Sure, they might not be concretely stupid with numbers, but they all thought numbers was the point of math. None had actually studied math since high school. Hiring and not firing is almost exclusively based upon how closely affiliated you are with the party line.
@@juliafox52 I am glad some of the kids see through the BS and can think for themselves. So many of them are brainwashed.
oh dear.. that is not something good to teach children. It teaches them to look at people for the colour of their skin and not their competence.
Well we live in a world where your color, gender, and gender identity are more important than your ability to the job. Discrimination is terrible unless it is discrimination against straight white people and especially straight white men.
"the teacher was hired to teach 5th grade math, not politics. Teachers need to teach their subjects without sharing their opinions."
I understand where you are coming from, and why you are wishing so hard for a different reality, but Boghossians entire argument is based on the idea that if we all think a bit, we can find ourselves in a better world.
But, we must all play the game, we must all think, and we must all be prepared to abandon and rethink our ideas that are plainly wrong.
So, with that in mind. . . . . .
When have you ever heard of someone, anyone, actually, even you, just here in this comment section, be excited by an opinion, any opinion, and then not share it with all and sundry.
Obviously, skin colour is not a valid reason to judge a person's worth, on that we agree.
In closing, please explain exactly how, you are going to get adults to stop sharing their opinions on irrelevent subjects. . . . .
I'm Brazilian and an "educator" Paulo Freire defended the "pedagogy of the oppressed", that is, the class struggle began in the classroom. It is no coincidence that Brazil is at the bottom of PISA
Did Bolsonaro change anything?
Nope@@ashm.5899
In the UK, "Pedagogy of the Oppressed" has been part of the teacher-training curriculum since the 90s, possibly earlier.
He was a pal of pope Frank, wasn't he?
Would explain a lot.
I was in Ed schools in the 80s. It wasn’t mandatory then, but certainly on recommended reading lists.
I wish Peter would teach philosophy on RUclips
I too wish Peter would teach philosophy on RUclips!
I never heard him swear before...I love it! Haha! Can't wait to watch this!
It's gone much too far to be treated with kid gloves anymore. It's stupid and its dangerous, and it needs to be called out at every possible juncture. We MUST call a spade a spade, at all times. Otherwise, we're f**ked.
I think he did it on Timcast as well, but yeah, took me completely off guard too
I have always loved debate, talking with people animatedly about concepts, ideas and positions. It has, throughout my life, been criticised as confrontational, critical, difficult. I struggled to understand why so many people found no joy in exploring ideas in conversation. The last few years have been even worse. Now people have embraced the concept of attack through words and interpret attack in disagreement. Fundamentally many people become highly offended by being asked the reasoning behind their positions - usually because they realise they have little to none.
My daughter was upset because I asked her reasoning behind her position on Israel and Palestine. I said to her that she could explore her ideas safely at home, test them and challenge them. Refine them, change them, adapt them. That our conversations were her space for determining what made most sense to her. This is borrows much from Peterson’s idea of thinking through talking.
I started out in IT, but I wanted to save a small part of the world via science education: first a decade or so teaching science to high school kids, then molding the curriculum, changing the zeitgeist and education paradigms, so I gave up my lucrative IT career and went back to uni, to get a teacher's certificate in one of the best relevant institutions. The one year I spent there before I bailed was almost completely useless. It almost never taught me anything about "how to teach science to high school kids better". I did not want 4 more years of that.
I went back to IT. I'm sad I did not get to save the world, because it REALLY needs some serious saving, but nowadays I'm working from home for 20x (twenty times) as much money as I could get for teaching.
I'm very, very thankful for people such as yourselves for doing some of the work I intended to do.
I just went through a teacher education program in the US last year. The entire thing revolved around critical theory and there were multiple instances of political litmus tests to ensure that we were incorporating Freire's ideas into our pedagogy. One of the things that really got me was that the content knowledge of the people most in favor of such ideology was so low that they were unable to question their own beliefs based on evidence. For example, one professor claimed that ableism stems from capitalism, colonialism, and white supremacy. Well what about the Spartans throwing deformed babies off of cliffs? And I know from living in a post-communist country that disabled people had it worse under socialism and still do today because of it. The professors kept saying that we should focus on skills (to be used for "liberation") and not really on content, or perhaps teach content but only if it aligned with anticapitalism, antiracism, etc. I had planned to stay in the US but after that I decided to leave the country. I'd be happy to give an interview about my experiences.
Most people who bang on about how great communism is. Have never had to experience it. Usually University graduates that have been brainwashed. When I talk to anyone from the former Soviet union they all hate it.
Massive fan of Boghossian. And this channel. You chaps are my go-to for intelligent discussion - something that wokery is threatening to kill.
Those street workshops are tremendous, they should be compulsory in Secondary school in England.
Phenomenal episode! Peter is an epistemological rockstar!!! Please keep pushing the dialogue toward “what can we do about this mess we’re in?” And away from just complaining about it. I’ve been complaining and listening to people complain for far too long. I want to start taking actual steps in the right direction.
^^ I think this IS already happening.. many broadcasters, including Helen Joyce, Dave Rubin, Megan Kelly, and Peter himself, are repeatedly talking about how to communicate clearly and calmy, how to set boundaries and hold the line and how to create new structures within institutions.
I attended Catholic schools through 2 years of university. Taught by sisters and priests, including Jesuits. I always say the most important thing I was taught was how to learn. How to analyse, research; how to read, and to comprehend what I read; how to express myself clearly in writing and in speech. Structure and discipline, so that we had an atmosphere of learning.
🔥Amazing conversation, I love you all guys. Peter and his Grievance team are heroes to me
Probably the most important topics of our time discussed here.
Absolutely!
This conversation needs to be encouraged everywhere.
It's very very important. But I would not say the most important.
@@JuiCeBoX19 good to see you using your time and energy to come on JUST to disagree with someones opinion. you've successfully used the internet,
i second that. I shudder to think about the intellectual regression humanity is trending towards in the future.
@@twoinchtape?
One of the best skills I ever learned, is to take a position, but then change sides to argue the opposite opinion in a debate. Your ability to argue a stance you don't believe it, strengthens your critical thinking and understand a topic from all positions instead of adhering to an ideology.
I am adopted, but sadly both of my adopted parents have passed away. Could I adopted by these three? I am 54 years old so maybe there are issues...but what an Xmas dinner conversation!
In college I discovered logic classes, took them all (3) it changed my life , seriously. I also thought it should be taught in high school. Reason and critical thinking 1 & 2 were very useful. My class in formal logic was interesting but not as useful.
I don’t know what the Nobel people are up to; but if at some point in this generation, Boghossian is not awarded the Peace Prize for his work in Street Epistemology, then the organization is irreparably broken. Such an important and beautiful effort to reveal the full complexity of human thought and motivation.
Do you mean the people who gave Obama the Nobel Peace prize for being elected black? Or gave Nobel Peace Prize to Gorbechev, who orchestrated a nice, collapsed distribution of wealth into the hands of elites when the USSR was clearly not going to survive, and got so high in power by murder a LOT of people.
That Nobel Peace Prize?
If so, that ship already sailed a long time ago.
Nobel is dead ever since they awarded the Medicine prize to the creators of the mRNA technology, currently scything through the vaccinated population.
They’ve already awarded peace prizes to war criminals
I heard about Peter from a woke person years and years ago, back when he was merely challenging religious beliefs. One can only speculate how this person's head is spinning now that Peter took on the woke culture and exposed the lack of critical thought and the influx of mob mentality. Very happy to see you guys interview him!
If you didnt look up The Grievance Studies he, James lindsay and Helen Pluckrose did I recommend.
“The US is marching towards hospice” is the most accurate characterization of the slow decline of the US I’ve ever heard.
It’s evident to many of us, maybe especially to those of us who are naturalized citizens & who remember the stark contrast we felt when moving from our native countries to the US.
Certainly, the US is not the same place it was when I moved here in the late 90s.
Good to see someone get fired up
Australian children are also being tought to think with their feelings and report to authorities, HR, even bosses, any incident that challenges them and makes them feel uncomfortable. I was effectively cancelled by a 20 yr old whom I asked to perform her duties and engage with an attitude of teamwork. Her responses were hysterical, crying bullying to employer and threatening legal action if I was not removed. Who do you think lost that battle 😢
Incidentally she was 2 weeks away from resigning to go off to University for a second round of indoctrination and Molly coddling. I have bounced back but that particular employer discarded one of their most productive and popular workers 😊
I know of people in their 20s working retail jobs who break down in tears for being instructed to stack shelves. Not supermarket shelves either, mid-range homewares shops with low quantities of stock on display. I’ve encountered students into their 30s who are too stressed to do their graphic design homework on a consistent basis, basically because they can’t handle feedback. It would be funny if it wasn’t so prevalent, and yes I am in Australia too.
These companies depend on people like you. They will eventually run out of sheets to escape the castle tower with, and find themselves dangling in the air with no one to help them.
I'm glad they lost you. They didn't deserve you, we as a collective need to stop working at places where this behavior is tolerated. Let their woke businesses fail!!!! Glad you bounced back!!
There's something missing from that story.
Every day that passes, I grow ever more grateful for the homeschool hybrid school we’ve got in our town. It’s a 4 by 4 model (four days for four hours) with licensed veteran teachers who are committed to a classical education. Parents handle all the enrichment and reinforcement while teachers handle new instruction. It’s an amazing partnership. I know not everyone can manage that, but I’m so grateful we can.
The curriculum is Memoria Press which is unapologetically, thoroughly, definitively Classical. Recitation, Latin beginning grade 2 (they’ll be reading classic works in Latin by grade 12), the Great Books, rhetorical training, etc. It’s an unapologetic rediscovery of Western education that was the norm up until about 80 years ago.
Honestly, the more I see about the state of public education, the more convinced I am that this is the way.
Changing your mind based on new evidence should be the HIGHEST virtue and treated as such in society.
I wish there were more discussions like this available, not only on social media but on television, too. I trained as a biochemist and toxicologist to postdoc. level between 1984 and 1991, and I observe supposedly educated young people nowadays with an increasing sense of disbelief. If a university isn't the best place in which to explore a range of ideas and to develop a sense of critical analysis as second-nature, rather than being an echo-chamber for one's own preconceptions, then society as we've come to know it is truly lost. Perhaps the most worrying aspect of this change is that our future researchers and educators, in the social 'sciences' at least and possibly the humanities more generally, will be drawn from this generation, members of which, it seems, are now largely either unable or unwilling to consider a range of opinions from which to draw their own conclusions, rather than blindy accepting the views of others. Without wishing to draw a comparison with the method of reasoning in the 'hard sciences', even if we stay within the realms of the humanities, take the example of the Law. A competent lawyer should be able, using a single body of evidence, to be capable of analysing the material and to present a case for either side of the argument, thus using their ability to evaluate one set of 'facts' from two opposing viewpoints. How will this be possible when universities and law schools will have to 'de-programme' their candidates before even starting to train them how to think properly?
"In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. ...but in practice, there is." - Yogi Berra
"The only thing people want more than to know what is true is to belong". Brilliant.
This is so 100 percent true. People can't be told things bluntly anymore. I work with someone who is habitually late. I addressed the issue with this person and they couldn't function with the fact that I was calling them out (respectfully but very directly) on their lack of work ethic. the first thing they did was try and tell me how I wasn't taking their feelings into consideration, how I wasn't letting them be heard. At that point I straight up told them their feelings on the matter were subjective because nothing I said was offensive. This is the kind of gaslighting BS that is now part of our day to day discourse. Someone needs a dose of reality, you appropriately point this out, and then you're told that you're the one with the problem.
Peter is an absolute GEM. PSU did not/does not deserve such a powerful teacher. I also think we the people need to infiltrate accrediting bodies.
I really enjoyed this podcast. One thing often overlooked is this dodgy doctrine that oppresses critical thinking has infected the UK military, and that is fatal.
Peter is the GOAT!!!
Now that I have come to know of Peter Borghissian whom I never knew before, all i can say is that i have become a great admirer of his.
Thank you very much, Konstantin, for this video.
Peter is such a gem. I think in 50 years humans will watch his videos and say how could we be so stupid. He approaches every question with genuine curiosity, always full of respect and stoically mannered. The attacks he endured from woke snowflakes are beyond any dignity and reason. He will be remembered as a hero for humanity
Another excellent discussion guys
Easiest podcast I’ve listened to in years. Great points and very engaging.
All I could think about is how much Peter dumbs himself down during his street interviews and how patient he must be to do so. Thank you for a great interview!
Peter Boghossian is the man!! Love listening to him.
Great pople having a great conversation! Thank you
Is Tom Sowell lurking in the background. He's been talking about this for 30 years.
Murray Rothbard was warning of this crap over 30 years ago too.
Look for Joseph Salerno's speech from the Mises Institute's 40th Anniversary dinner from a couple of years ago. He reads an article written by Rothbard back in 91/92, and it's like original AnCap had literally stepped out of a time machine after returning from the (then) future, and just wrote the article.
It's spooky.
Pumped for this one! Epic work, gentlemen!
Peter is really good in this interview! Seen him before but his articulation of the problems with society and education here is bang on!
Great to listen to you all having a civilised conversation about major issues, thank you
Would love to see this game played in Canadian parliament…
LoL. My Australian politicians can't define what a woman is.
So would I
'How to Have Impossible Coversations' is an outstanding book. Highly recommended.
Well done guys for presenting this.
"Ralston College and University of Austin are the only two colleges fighting back"
You didn't mention Hillsdale College, which never got stupid in the first place. There are also small, inexpensive religious colleges that are dedicated to their own faith and a solid education.
Amazing conversation, thank you!
Thank you. Perfect wording to describe it.
You spoke about the critically thinking dispositions as though they could not be taught, but they can be explicitly taught. They are intellectual humility, intellectual empathy, intellectual integrity, intellectual courage, intellectual autonomy, intellectual perseverance, faith in reason, and fairness (in the sense of not distorting another's position). These are indispensable when it comes to critical thinking and should be taught FIRST. All sophistry is a result of the violation of one or more of these dispositions, also called intellectual traits, or my preferred term, intellectual virtues. Of course, the student must actually practice and integrate them, which is a challenge for all of us.
Peter is so brilliant; love to hear him think and teach.
52:00 - Pain is a corrective mechanism. It’s an alert to indicate that something is wrong. It’s indicating that you need to fix a problem, but it’s not telling you how to fix the problem. But, without pain, you’re not even aware that there is a problem. To be oblivious is potentially a fatal fault.
Regarding abortion. I wish a retired head of Gynaecology of a large London Hospital which she had worked in for decades could get interviewed. She said that 95% of terminations were because the child was not wanted and they were careless about their birth control. Only 5% were because of rxxe and medical and mental health reasons.
I have read in the US only 1% is due to rape. Some years ago late term abortion was introduced in NSW. It was considered important so that Indian and Chinese women in the country could gender select, and discard girls, in favour of boys. So we had feminists in parliament debating how important this was for women. The disconnect was deafening.
It's sad stats but being born unwanted would be a tragedy too. I'd argue a bigger one.
The democrats have a lying problem on the topic of abortion, its obvious that 99% of abortions are for financial reasons or carelessness, the whole plea about rape and incest is the only moral argument they have so they have to disingenuously argue for the edge case being the standard.
Im a moderate politically speaking i think, I used to be a Democrat myself, you can't really hold an anti abortion stance societally speaking as a man unless you want to be single for the rest of your life here in the states, a lot of people are forced into the belief because they dont want to appear misogynistic or like a pearl clutching gender traitor in the case of women holding an anti abortion stance.
Me personally though, I'm pro death (choice) when it comes to abortion, I know its a life but im pro choice anyway because I believe life is something where not everyone gets a ticket as harsh as that sounds, I believe the same for immigration though I think you cant just let in everyone you want to because your sense of morality thinks its the right thing when it flies in the face of reason and reality.
Things are so much simpler when we can all be honest. I cant in good faith blame a woman for getting an abortion when we live in a country that has more single mothers than can be counted that no one wants because they have 3-8 kids by the age of 30. Then theres the junkie moms out there that have as many kids as they can because they want that government paycheck, you can't be against welfare queens and against abortion at the same time in my opinion, you can't be against abortion but pretend to hold a moral highground in a time like now where heroin is so prevalent that deformities and congenital conditions caused by heroin use or other drug use is so high and when the government seems to only make raising a child more expensive by the year if you're not playing the system.
I know firsthand in real life examples of all I listed above. Ive known women who are forced to get abortions by their family for less than noble reasons and men who force their wives to get abortions and women that get abortions without even telling the man she was pregnant, the whole abortion debate is a shit show out of context of the larger reality and thats why Republicans and democrats reduce it to just 1 talking point that fits within their rhetoric, because if they didnt they'd expose their own internal inconsistency in their own beliefs.
@tamashumi7961 but how many times can people be careless. There were some who had had more than one. Contraception is free in the UK and there is plenty of info and advice available in many different languages
@@tamashumi7961 I have worked with children in foster care who had suffered abuse or neglect. Never once did a child say they wished they'd never been born.
I was just thinking to myself ‘I love these guys! They ask such great questions and they let their guests speak - it’s so refreshing’ when Konstantin said that’s (essentially) the feedback they frequently receive. It was a couple of their interviewees that brought me to this channel, but it was Francis and Konstantin that kept me coming back and eventually subscribing. I watch their interviews with people I’ve never heard of talking about topics I’ve never been exposed to before because I know they’ll make it worth my time for the reasons listed above. Such a great channel!
Thank you so much. I love the conversation.
Excellent
Thanks for a great talk
Sharing 🕊
Are we awake now 🕊
Shaping the disposition is the function of CULTURE. The primary agent of Culture is STORIES. We live best when we choose those Stories with CARE.
The first time I realized this was 15+ years ago in university. As a philosophy major, I was well-acquainted with dealing with uncomfortable ideas. My roommate's friend was in environmental sciences and I asked her to provide some evidence for global warming, as I had been hearing it all the time but was unsure how it was substantiated. My roommate later told me: you shouldn't have pushed her on that, she felt uncomfortable. What? It's her major. If she can't defend the very thing she is specializing in, then why in hell is she even in higher education? That was the beginning... 15 years later and it keeps getting worse.
Holy shit!! He used “begging the question” correctly 🎉🎉🎉
Great conversation!
I need to be able to multi-like this episode. It's a university education in one hour. If all you learned at uni was what was spoken about here, you'd be so far ahead of the pack that when you turned around, you wouldn't be able to see the pack. LIKE LIKE LIKE LIKE LIKE LIKE LIKE LIKE LIKE
I'm in love with this man! What a mind!
Great episode chaps and a great guest! 👍
Yet again another cracking podcast.
LOVE this man's drive and energy.
This was a super great conversation. Thank you!
The younger generation will not be able to be fixed unless society rediscovers the meaning and value of shame. Wokism is a complete negation of the need for shame.
57:16 The look on Konstantins face when Peter says "you can say whatever you want to me".... I know that look. I am the same.... when someone says "I dont get offended" I immediate have a devilish plot in my head to try and offend them, thinking "challenge accepted". As Drago says "I must break you"
LOL
Wow, I am so impressed. Thank you.
Great conversation, guys! Thank you! Very encouraging to hear about issues, how to listen and how to address them.
Those teaching today have not been taught critical thinking skills nor are the teachers very bright compared to previous generations of teachers. They can not pass on what they cannot learn themselves. In fact they punish critical thinking skills as a whole and those that would support it. There are no debate teams skills taught in which one could adequately argue either side of an issue. Current teachers often cannot write, spell or construct a fluent moving speech. My parents told me that's exactly what they thought of my teachers...it has been on the decline for 3 generations. Politics are even heavier in curriculum than any facts. Sad
I live in Utah and have a Mormon background and I am impressed Peter Bogossian knows about the “doubt your doubts” statement. That is a relatively recent Mormon idea.
You're aware that's a meaningless statement? Let's run through it. "I doubt all of my doubts". Should I doubt that statement?
@@roncarlin3209 I don’t know if you should doubt that statement, you tell me. I don’t think you grasped the point of my comment because your question is irrelevant.
@@dinosaurparkandsuch6936 I grasped, you didn't. You need to research meaningless statements in philosophy. Start with Russel's paradox. "I doubt all of my doubts" falls within that paradigm.
The way out of the paradox is simply not to try to be so smart. Simply say: "You should doubt everything, except the fact that you doubt". That's how Descartes proved that reality exists.
@@roncarlin3209 no, you didn’t get my point at all, not even close. Russel’s paradox and Descartes are completely irrelevant to the point I was making. Read what I said and try again.
Its basically saying never stop questioning. And find reasons not to doubt so you dont have doubts
I really like the new format of a semi-circle for the lines. It makes it easier for the participants to engage with each other. It feels more like a discussion.
Good distinction between teaching skillz v. cultivating dispositions. Nailed that one.
How do you persuade people who fundamentally think you’re evil simply because you disagree?
You ask them if the reason you are evil is due to the disagreement itself or the reason for the disagreement. If it is the latter then you can address those reasons to see if you disagree for the reasons they think.
About time someone else spoke up about it! Thanks Jordan Peterson for leading the way!
Thanks!
Loved the conversation gentlemen, really helped me understand how to formulate my ideas and listen better to others ❤