Leftist infighting almost killed me (Broke Bread)
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- Опубликовано: 17 май 2024
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Need to get some things off my chest.
00:00 We Ready?
11:34 The Chaos Machine
39:40 The Drama
01:39:36 Take Accountability
02:01:04 Broke Bread
debate good video - • In Defense of Debate
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I just started the video, thanks for the spoiler warning.
Im 55 minutes in and never have I ever been so happy to be a nobody.
When Kayfabe dies at the end whispering "I am F.D. Signifier." it shook me
Am I crazy or did this originally post a few days ago
@@user-jf6is6zw6m had to be re-uploaded b/c of youtube BS
I've got to say that my ideal of 'cancelling' someone is just... not watching their content.
Yeah I'm not on twitter so when someone gets cancelled I just... Stop watching them? Like, why would you want to constantly think about and post about someone who did bad things, when the best way to rob them of power is to forget about them?
Editing cause I finished the vid-
When I say 'cancelled', I mean people who I have deemed to have actually done something irredeemably wrong (however flawed that perception may be), is when I stop watching.
This is why I would distinguish between "cancelling" (which is a non-existent thing right-wing people are always pretending to be hurt by) and clout-chasing which is what is going on in the examples. To be fair, I think the video does draw the line between the 2 things.
ideally the mechanism of cancelling someone would be:
1. give them room to apologize. explain what they did was wrong, let them them decide if they want to response in a good way or shitty way, whatever. a more harsh way of saying this is give them their own rope
2. of course if they don't apologize and are just shitty about that, then we cancel: which consists of pulling financial support from them, stop engaging with their content
of course if we wer ein an ideal world this would be fine, in practice it gets PRETTY BAD. but there's an ideal of what cancelling would be that's pretty good. i think it's impossible for there to be toxicity, but even still, we do not pursue this ideal very well lol
Maybe it's because I grew up before the over saturation of socal media, but I'm always baffled by not taking this approach if you're seriously working in good faith. If something is upsetting you, you can just not engage with it.
I remember there were times, several years ago, back when I used twitter. There was a celebrity that I admired a lot who started becoming more and more right wing, expressing disdain for people like me who believe in fairness and social justice, etc. And I sent abusive tweets to them. I guess it came from a place of hurt. In my mind, I felt justified in trying to make them feel bad, because I felt bad.
I think ‘cancelling’ is just an extension of how antisocial people act towards each other online in general. There’s probably people fighting somewhere in this comment section.
But yeah, I came off twitter eventually, I haven’t been on it for about two years now.
I felt so betrayed learning FD wasn’t his real name
apparently it’s Not short for Franklin Delano Signifier
You’re telling me that on his driver’s license it doesn’t say “FD Signifier”
Spoilers man!
Noooooooooooooooooooo!
I'm gonna cry myself to sleep after hearing this info
@@kshamwhizzle6544 Or he took hers
Hi, 42 year old cis white man from germany here. you are probably my first Black content creator I watch regurlarly. I want to thank you for making the content you did and will do (hopefully). thank you for being a entertaining voice of reason Alltough i am probably not the one you had in mind when thinking about your audience. You helped me understand a lot of stuff especially about systemic racism. and helped me to see the same bullshit in the european systems. which is in retrospective very obvious. it helped me, to channel this in my daily RL to get more sensitive to these issues and have a knowledge base to speak up or use my privileges to give room. you exposed me to literature social science and concepts of thinking, i would have never seen in my life.
I just want to say, your work is deeply appreciated and had an impact in my real day to day life.
Thank you for enduring all the bullshit long enough to end up on my screen.
I only just got round to watching this, it really is a great video. I like how you don't fully throw anyone under the bus and you're also refreshingly candid about the limitations of what we do here. Also, as a migraine sufferer, when you said 'my right eye has gone blurry' I instantly recognised the symptom, mine are generally exercise induced but they're also much more common than they used to be. You have to wonder about the effect RUclips/online spaces have increasing our susceptibility to these things. Glad you're well anyway.
I can't believe I just learned why I'm getting migraines from a random youtube comment, every like 1/10 times I workout I seem to randomly get one. always have that weird blurred vision at the periphery of my eyes like the hour beforehand. You find anything that caused you to not get those? Is it dehydration maybe?
@@BigMackWitSauce sorry to hear that dude but glad I (inadvertently) helped!
My formula, which it has taken years to perfect but has 100% success, is:
No (literally 0) hot caffeine drinks on the day
Huel drink 2 hours before
Water with electrolyte tablets (can only get from Amazon sadly) during/after
I've also found that somehow shielding your eyes from light helps but depending on where you are that may or may not be realistic.
🐐
@@BigMackWitSauce I get them too. blurry vision in my right eye. Doctor called it an aura. Haven't been able to 100% ID a trigger, but most of the time i remember looking at a bright light. indoor fluorescent lighting does it a lot. so does coming out of a dark place and getting blasted by sunlight. They have randomly mostly gone away for the time being. They come and go every few years. Last time was when i was in college working for FedEx, constantly staring up at a conveyor belt with all those bright lights. i had to quit working there. I've also had a couple trigger at the gun range. I assume from bright flashes there as well. Tho apparently strong odor can be a trigger too, eg the gunpowder.
Fuck migraines, I get that thing (i think a scotoma is the word?) where my vision feels almost laggy and then the headache starts. Shit sucks
You've gone into one of the major reasons why I'm checking out from online politics lately. Kinda sad bc it seems like letting "them" win. but RUclips is a dream job and it's not supposed to be this stressful lol so I chose peace
You make excellent videos too. Prayers and peace to you. I loved the BMW Angela and Sean essay!
Protect your peace Fam!
Dammit. Well, I wouldn’t hold against someone their decision to prioritize self-care over public political struggle … but it’s still a loss to this platform and to the larger community. Thank you for the videos you’ve uploaded, I particularly got a lot from “How White Supremacists Hide in Plain Sight.”
We are losing so many great creators for this reason. I hope things can change for the better.
We watch your content because we like you, not just your political content💜
My main take-away from all of this, both the stuff the video talks about and the video itself, boils down to a relatively simple observation:
Cruelty is not justice.
Been saying this my whole life. This is the deeper truth
I don’t know my observation is that overall on the subject of justice. There are no methods that can reliably extract justice. Because there is no system for it people will settle for revenge. Revenge is not always better than justice but it is a good substitute in the moment. And because one is denied to them and the other is the only option. That is what will be chosen most of the time by most people.
@@smokedbeefandcheese4144 I'll add to that point: Also, revenge doesn't seem to require picking the right target or victims, which encourages people seeking revenge to go after who they think they can win against rather than the person that actually did them wrong. And that's why, for instance, kids who are abused by dad at home will tend to look for someone smaller than them to go after to deal with the anger they have for being smacked around for no reason - they can't take on dad, but they can take on that other kid.
The thing is, a lot of people want to enact cruelty. It's not a majority but a significative portion of most progressive movements are people looking for an excuse to be bullies to someone else. Thinking it will go away because we understand the philosophy behind it is wrong. It's something that needs to be explicitly fought against in any community that claims to care about justice instead of violence.
@@thexalon Just gonna point out that that makes it sound like most people who get abused become bullies which is just not true. The social narrative that bullies are just hurting inside is not without flaws, including the fact that there are people who just enjoy causing pain to others that come from healthy backgrounds
When i was 11 my grandmother got cancer and she spent the last months of her life suffering in a hospital bed. Seeing that suffering and knowing that recovery was not an option i told my mom: "I hope she dies soon". Every adults present and the people they told decided to focus on the exact words used instead of reading between the line and understand that this little boy wasn't wishing death on his grandmother but delivery from the pain. Personnaly I think that internet is the exact same that those people it'll ignore the message delivered if it can get angry at the wording used
I have struggled for so long to verbalize that but this is just perfect. Legitimately a perfect summary of how the internet mob functions.
Always interpreting things in the worst possible perspective.
i have autism and this is something i would have said, this is so relatable
People are too quick to respond with hurt and pain.
That surprises me. I would have thought anyone who has watched a loved one dying would understand that it is unbearable. The only possible wish when there's no hope of recovery is for death to come quickly.
If you hope and pray for one more week, a week later you'd be in the same spot. You can do the same for a month, a year, a decade and at the end of it all you just want the person alive, but if it isn't on the table then the next best thing is for the suffering to end.
Sorry to share, but I understand. I hope your family processed their grief better in the end.
One of the sad realities I've had to come to accept is critical thinking is optional. This nuanced world we live in is a straight path to most unless you point out the forks and intersections.
As a white guy raised in the south, I can honestly say that I was introduced to Duboise in school as "doob-wah." I literally did not know the correct pronunciation until I started watching your videos, and confirmed it. So much of my adult life has been deconstructing the "anti-black" or "predominantly white centered" history I was taught growing up, and it's exhausting sometimes.
Poor guy
That's really cool. I am also from the south but as a kid with a learning disability I was embraced most by the black kids at my school. They got forced into remedial and special ed because, well, its the south in the mid-90s. The totally embarrassing result was a "white trying to be black" situation until I was 15. I was introduced to ForHarriet sometime maybe 5 years ago because I was into cinema criticism and it was actually when the Harriet Tubman movie came out. I also had to revaluate my relationship to the black community. How to be an ally that was conscientious that they have no obligation to take my allyship, and to back off when they don't want it. And to spot fake allyship. A bunch of stuff. But it's so wild how we have to reckon with our past experiences and basically re-learn our relationship to be better people.
@lolitabubbles26 as a half black half white very very very white looking man I've had to reckon with that same thing that just because it's a part of my lineage doesn't mean that I get to stand with them in the fight that was the hardest thing to understand that maybe it is my white privilege that tells me I can get involved because who really has been there to say I cant
The "e" means you pronounce the "s"
@@RunningRugby4 yes but not in the way they say it. like if thats the correct way then its not just because of the e. in french Dubois would be "doo-bwah" and Duboise would be "doo-bwuhz"
"doo-boyz" isn't the pronunciation just because of the e, its like an americanisation and the e together
Y’all Unc been trynna get this video out for the LONGEST please give it another watch if you haven’t already
❤️
Hey it's you, I've been watching all your stuff lately and I love it. I don't know if it matters but I missed Fiq's post and found you through Lil' Bill's one.
And for anyone reading, if you don't know Lil' Bill, he's excellent and you should check him out, along with Thinkpiece of course.
Watched it twice. It's a lot. Great fuckin video, F.D. is the man.
@Bread Tunes your username suggests you're not rly one to talk about other people being overly invested in this stuff
@@breadtunes I have seen you continue to reply over and over again in these comment sections. So clearly you are invested in continuing this conversation. If you don't want to talk about "drama" then you can surely log off and stop talking . I find your comments to be really rude and dismissive of people's lived experiences. Particularly people of color and women. I'm not a class reductionist. I don't think we can have a left movement without acknowledging systemic racism and misogyny and transphobia. I do think that of course the far right is going to use those divisions against us as they always do while participating in a wannabe genocide against Trans people and of course there known ties to white supremacist groups and mysoginy
I also think we have to give people room to grow and change their minds and the constant piling on and trying to cancel people for minor transgressions isn't helpful. That being said we have to acknowledge the bullshit and misogyny and racism on the left and stop rewarding people who refuse to grow and learn and call them out when they are wrong. This is a really important complicated topic and I think having self reflection and the ability to listen and change is important.. I think it definitely warranted a long thoughtful response and I for one am glad he said what a lot of us are thinking. What is the point of you saying he should essentially just stop talking? Do you think we can really just sweep these issues under the rug and pretend it's not a thing? Why can't we do both.. talk about important specific policies AND discuss the problems the online left are having and try to learn something? It's not either or.
YT doesn't want the Drama Market exposed.
Drama drives engagement the most
But of course YT's life blood is drama
The drama industrial complex
Gotta drive up that engagement
well that's cause its how the algorithm works. If people are aware then it doesn't work as well
This video has really made me reconsider how I interact with content. I've never actually tweeted or commented anything harassing, but I have absolutely watched and gawked at the drama. And I have absolutely leaned on breadtube videos emotionally to feel like "I'm doing something. I'm learning something". And these videos are both educational and entertaining, but it's not a replacement for participation in real life communities or activism. I can't imagine the pressure you must be under and I hope you find ways to take care of yourself.
☝🏽😒
You were the first black leftist I found on RUclips and holy shit I really have to thank you for helping me realize how all of the content I was watching was by white creators. I've learned so much from you, and other non white creators I've found through your channel, about how much of a problem racism still is. I believed the white washed narrative about how racism is a problem of the past and isn't a thing anymore and I might not have ever changed my view on that if I hadn't learned more from you and the other creators I found because of you. I'm marginalized in just about every way except for race, so knowing how to feels to be at the other end of that I'm trying to learn everything I can about how I'm privileged because of my race and deconstruct any racist biases I have, and I don't think I ever would have gotten started down this path of self improvement if it weren't for you, so truly thank you.
I sure wonder who these white leftist YT creators were who supposedly claim/believe that racism is a problem of the past. Just like for you, white people are way overrepresented in the group of leftist video makers that the algorithm has presented to me so far (the only high-profile exceptions I can think of off the top of my head being FD here, T1J, Kat Blaque and Sharkzero), but I've never heard any of them say anything of the sort. It doesn't really make sense that someone who calls themself a leftist would not believe racism is a very current and pressing issue. Are you sure you weren't just watching right-wing or reactionary centrist stuff? Lmao
i found this channel by clicking on a thomas sowell - you tube favors conservative content -
You give off "every white person is a racist" vibes
Bro really wrote a whole thank you essay to a guy for being black
@@loumona76 ???
as a first nations woman, it's so hard to find people who I can truly trust when it comes to expressing my beliefs about and frustrations with the systems in which we're forced to live here. people in my life have felt threatened, get defensive, and even threaten violence. FD, your voice is so important for the leftist community, and you're and important figure for me personlly. I trust you with my whole heart. This shit is the worst, i hope you're able to stay safe and healthy. ♡♡
I'm Métis and I feel very much the same way. Before I found Professor Flowers, St. Andrewism, Foreign Man in a Foreign Land, Khadija Mbowe and, of course, FD, I really had no space where I could speak my mind. Even the community on The Serfs, which is run by a fellow Métis man would hear me out only as long as I didn't make them uncomfortable. For a time I tried to be a part of Xanderhal's community but it was very clear that my support for Land Back was not welcome there. It's irritating to see a community of white people who are ostensibly anti-racist but who never self-reflect.
@@surgeland9084 I am dubious that many are even ostensibly anti-racist at this point, honestly.
I know I'll probably never remember to check this comment, but if have any recommendations, I'd love to hear them.
And also, suggestion on who to avoid
As a South African, Vaush's understanding of our history is dizzingly inaccurate and it's actually pretty disrespectful that he just uses us as a talking point like that
It’s willful ignorance. He has a point to push and he’ll change the topic to push that point and call you stupid.
Don’t really think he went in depth on South Africa’s history. It seemed like it was the first example off the top of his head.
I like a lot of FD’s content but he kinda started the beef between streamers and video essayists.
@@keokihiga8462 the fact that that beef could be started so easily is indicative in and of itself, I think?
@@river_brook I’m sure streamers and video essayists feel like they put their heart and soul into their work. So if someone throws shade I’m not gonna fault them for standing up for themselves.
@Antonio Gramsci In what way? I'm an American (not from the Deep South) but I consider myself pretty well-versed in American History outside of what was taught in my high school. What kind of misconceptions about that period do you normally see from non-Southern Americans?
“The surest way to work up a crusade in favor of some good cause is to promise people they will have a chance of maltreating someone. To be able to destroy with good conscience, to be able to behave badly and call your bad behavior 'righteous indignation' - this is the height of psychological luxury, the most delicious of moral treats.” - Aldous Huxley
Oh wow, that's a great observation by Aldous
S class is best class!
😊😊😊😊😊😊😊😊å
At 33:20 Hasan says something that reminds me of a phrase I heard years ago, "Bricks you throw at your neighbor aren't building your house"
Regarding the Central Park dog lady situation, you asked if anything restorative came out of her public shaming. Following that incident and the murder of George Floyd, a whole bunch of Black-led organizations were formed. It started with Black Birders Week, followed by a variety of "Black In" STEM orgs (Black In Marine Science, Black In Mammology, Black In Neuroscience, etc.). These orgs are still very active today and making a huge difference by creating community, sharing resources, running programs, giving grants and scholarships, etc.
Apologies if you address this later in the video. I only watched the first ~30 mins and will come back for more later to experience the whole video. But I just wanted to point out that, even if dog lady learned nothing from the experience and received zero long-term consequences, it became something much bigger than her and empowered Black folks in nature and science fields to organize. Her behavior was so blatantly bad and her public shaming was so thorough that it raised awareness about how Black people are treated in these spaces.
Awesome video, by the way. This isn't a critique, just something that I thought about when you used that example.
That's really well put Stacy! I'm one of the Black scientists who founded one of these groups and it's really reassuring to hear that other people are recognising the community that came out of these painful events. I'd never thought of it that way before.
This is a beautifully illustrative example of the entire point of this whole video. "Accountability Culture" is not praxis, and holding random individuals "accountable" for their perceived wrongdoings or bad beliefs does nearly nothing to further the causes that breadtube fans say they care about. The whole point *should be* action, organization, and other material means by which a large group of politically aware people should be making the world into the place we want it to be.
It's just that doing those things get fewer clicks than random drama.
I do finance work for a bunch of nonprofits and donations exploded during and after the Floyd rebellions. For orgs that are so routinely overworked and underfunded, it improved their lives significantly and let them get a ton done. E.g. the swell of financial and political support got cops out of Oakland schools.
Organizing IRL has been a great antidote for online insanity. After the 2020 Bernie primary, I couldn't just keep posting and the existential dread of just watching the future possibilities collapse combined with COVID put me into a pretty dark place. Fortunately, I found likeminded people in my neighborhood where we could do real life organizing and help marginalized people. Now, we're running a candidate for city council and fingers crossed, could win and do even more good for my city. There's drama in these spaces too but the satisfaction of doing real work with real people completely outweighs it.
THIS is the solution. Nothing gets better if we the people don't organize. DSA has been a breath of fresh air for me. Having not just friends but "comrades" is something I never realized came with its own unique depth to fill that doom and gloom hole in my heart with.
So true and so much more for me. I advocated for Bernie from Ontario, Canada. That failed. So I tried to look for better ways to help, so I tried canvassing for an anarchist to be Green Party leader and instead we elected a pro-capitalist (she got ousted thou, and Amita became interim, which was hopeful for a bit), so then I tried to spread word for our provincial election… our conservative leader literally killed thousands of ppl during Covid… and he won w a majority for his second term. Finally a non binary mayoral candidate with a flawless seasoned track record who was the streets talking to folks in Ottawa. Against a talk show host and the conservative vote was split w some other rich asshat. I canvasses a lot, sneaking into condos and apartments to ring doorbells and encourage folks to vote. And we lost, again. I later learned that every previous mayoral election was a landslide for the austerity mayor since amalgamation, and that the progressive getting 35% was unheard of in mayoral elections in the sleepy city. But by then I was so extremely jaded from politics and I realized how very illiberal our democracy was.
While I was canvassing, i went into poor outer city apartments to encourage folks to vote and I nearly got hit by several cars crossing the road, and the apartments were very busy. When I asked, no one in there even knew their was a municipal election and everyone seemed to busy or distracted just trying to survive, to vote. The turn out numbers confirmed what the real issue is with our so called “democracy” it’s illiberal. The more conservatives squeeze marginalized folks, the less ppl can pay attention to municipal affairs or even vote!
From there I learned that there are only two ways to get change: help the ppl who are too distracted barely surviving; ie. help community through mutual aid. And civil disobedience so middle class suburbanites understand how fucking seriously dire things are. Also so the ppl in power know that shit WILL be destroyed if they fuck with inner city folks too much and their voters don’t like things being destroyed.
UNDERRATED COMMENT
and therein lies the problem.
It has to start somewhere. Online presence is the easiest.
Good to hear! Good luck!
I am a white female Eastern European in Eastern Europe and was active before the boom of Leftism and anarchism on the internet. I always loved reading black thinkers way more - I would always prefer reading bell hooks and Assata Shakur to Judith Butler, Gramschi and Adorno. Interesting fact - black literature and autobiographies were translated in Bulgarian (my language) during totalitarian communism because they were comfortable criticism of the US. When the youtube Left exploded I still found black youtube better. Overall, there is no smugness and ego, and preaching. Also, I can say that such fights offline and not on the internet are even more painful because there are no receipts. The sexism and the bickering really left me feeling alone and desperate that collective activism is impossible offline. Mostly because of white dudes.
This shit is why I don’t fuck with Twitter nor any other social media platform.
The drama is too much.
“Addressing this for the last time.”💀
Myeah almost a decade ago I kinda wanted to get into it because of all the artists online but the toxicity and "cancel culture" crap made me realise very quickly I'd never as much as look at it
Yeah, though hate and/or apathy against animals, let alone when still ingested needs to be called out along with supporting "WS" buisnesses, when they inherently harm the black community and marginalized, along with the environment first and also by sickness and diseases for all? Media is also a propoganda machine?
If Twitter were to disappear tomorrow, and all of its content were to vanish into the electronic void, how much bile would we have lost versus the good it provided?
I'm a 70 year old white guy who is always trying to understand what is going on. I greatly appreciate your clarity and self-awareness. There are many things I might have said in response to this video but I am someone who had a TIA in 2001 (at 48 years old). I found it life-changing, please be well and take good care of yourself for yourself and for your family.
That's one of the best parts of his content. F.D. is the man
TIA?
@@Novacanoo A transient ischemic attack, sometimes called a "ministroke."
I appreciate people like you so much
my grandfather is the same age as you and just had a tia a couple months ago, scary stuff, reminds you how special life is
I am an AA male in my mid 30s. Had my first mini-stroke at 31 and had a full blown one approximately 6 months later. Was in the military at the time but thankfully I wasn't deployed or I might've not made it. Thankfully I don't have any residual effects related to brain damage and I'm able to function just fine. Spurred me to eat cleaner and workout more and 4 years later, I've (knock on wood) never had another stroke. Nurses said that I was physically in great shape so they were unsure but it was more than likely related to the high stress environment I worked in. If you are chronically stressed, I beg you, find an outlet to relieve that stress!
Gosh, this comment hit me a little. I'm in my mid 30s as well, I've never had a stroke but I was diagnosed with high blood pressure last year. It was kind of a wake up call for me. I'm on meds for it and have since lost a little over 30 pounds, but I do carry A LOT of stress and struggle to find outlets.
@@BryWithAWhyDamn! This makes me nervous. As I have pre-hypertension too. 32 year old AA. What were some of ur warning signs? For me, I might have to change my diet. I'm no where close to overweight, so I need to correct this.
Lindsay Ellis getting harassed to the point she quit RUclips will always make me so sad because I loved her content. She was thoughtful and funny as hell. To this day I’ll sometimes go back rewatch some of her videos and reminisce about That Damn Baby.
That said I fully support her decision and hope that she’s doing well (I really need to check out her book series). I would love one day if she decided to come back to RUclips but that is 100% her decision. I wouldn’t blame her if she never comes back honestly 😢
@Professor Flowers getting harassed to the point that she struggled with suicidal ideations will always make me so sad and angry. This type of tormenting is not just “cancellation” in either/any case and, if we can’t stop it, let’s at least try to come alongside those targeted with defense and comfort, as best we can. ✌️🌼
Just check her out on nebula
She still makes vids on nebula
I really wished she would have put up her "Lindsay Ellis is a menace" merch up on her store after all this. I would 100% have bought it.
But I can get why she wouldn't since her haters would have absolutely worn it to harass her.
@@Thatsnotgonnawork you're also a capitalist but you're making shitty comments for free...
Dude the art community is soooooo insane for this. I get really anxious before posting my art because sometimes the most innocent mistakes/non issues get so much heat from the community to the point some ppl have stopped creating altogether because people wouldnt stop bullying them. i really hate the internet sometimes.
It is always so baffling as someone who doesn't use Twitter but watches pretty much all of the content creators mentioned to see you all constantly fighting.
Same here. I won’t touch Twitter with a 50 foot pole. I just watch left tubers and listen to their perspectives. Sometimes I agree with them, sometimes I don’t. Sometimes I learn a lot from them, sometimes I don’t. But I leave it at that. Twitter is the worst possible thing for this space.
I mean I use Twitter, but I'll never understand it. So, same.
Yeah I’ve watched like every part of left tube and they’ve all got good to say and drama is tiring to hear about if you’re not invested in it.
They fight on RUclips a lot also. Like how many thumbnails are something "Creator X owns a Tankie" or "why Creator why is wrong about Z".
Really confusing too. Makes you feel like "if y'all talk about the same thing, why y'all fighting again?"
The problem with "accountability culture" is that it offers no legitimate path to redemption/restitution. You're simply "held accountable" till the day you die.
The most annoying part is that most on the left simply refuse to acknowledge/address this ..... until one of their favs gets this treatment. It's a feature, not a bug
so well put. no path for redemption is absolutely nuts
Oh there is a path to redemption/restitution. It’s called restitution! But you need to gather your friends before your party can be seated
Unless you’re legitimately rich and famous and then you’re “held accountable” all the way to the bank.
Legitimate question:
What do we do with guys like Louie CK & Bill Cosby?
How, where, when do we """stop""" "holding them accountable?" Like, Idk, maybe it's different because they have money, so it makes sense that the answer for them is "go away so nobody ever had to hear from you again!"
I'm absolutely not defending them or going to bat for them - it's fucking disgusting and unconscionable that Louie CK won a Grammy last year, for instance.
Same for Brett Ratner. He shouldn't be directing again. But he is. I won't be giving money to that movie. Is there some theoretical point where he can "go away" enough that I, you, we won't be distressed to see him come back?
What could redemption look like for these guys? I'm pretty sure Louie CK admitted it, at least in one case, so it's not like he denied it.
I'm a survivor, so I have no love or defense for sex pests and abusers. Like I said, I'm not trying to go to bat for these guys. I'm just also aware that people need a way to make a living, and going away forever isn't a viable solution for many who get held accountable.
Idk, this might not even be the right comment to ask this on, it's late and my mind is wandering. This is just a portion of a thought I've had for a while now; what do we do for/ with people who don't get jailed for their crimes, but who have absolutely done despicable, vile things.
@@EmeraldLavigne I do hold space for that however keep in mind that both people you mentioned are guilty of actionable crimes (Louis CK: sexual assault/harassment and Cosby : rape).
The fact that both of them are repeat offenders is a testament to the fact that both men are not even willing to be redeemed, much less even desire to make amends to their victims. Any conversation involving people guilty of actionable crimes can only start AFTER they have paid their debts to society and even that does not guarantee redemption as they have to show demonstrable proof that they are truly remorseful over the actions that landed them in jail (looking at you Weinstein).
However, a good number of people "held accountable" are usually guilty of poorly worded statements and some cases of bad judgement or character. Most of these people have been summarily written off even after offering multiple apologies and legitimately making attempts to do better and be better.
That's the issue at large here: we're treating remorseful offenders just as bad as repeat offenders who have never shown a modicum of remorse.
Heading to the hospital due to a weird symptom that made you worry you were having a stroke is incredibly relatable. There was a time in my 30s, I was going to urgent care once a week. Finally went to a psychiatrist and got diagnosed with OCD secondary to anxiety disorder. Glad you're okay and hope you don't have to deal with too many more of these panic attacks.
Speaking as someone who was diagnosed with OCD very early on in childhood, i sincerely wish you the best. It's pretty hard with the compulsions, but thankfully i had the luck of having a family that actively helped me out throughout my childhood.
I am someone who has panic disorder (also OCD), and let me tell you, when I didn't know what was happening shit was SCARY. People often claim it only replicates the feelings of a heart attack, but if you have any previous trauma related to particular health conditions (in my case strokes, since my dad had a pretty severe one when I was a kid which really shook up our lives) it WILL draw from that fear and emulate it. Teenage/younger adult me unironically thought he was going to die from a stroke.
When I got that diagnosis and medications my life was genuinely changed for the better. Nowadays I do get an attack every now and then, but it's manageable since I know what it is and how to counteract it. That said, not gonna lie, watching this video to the end and seeing what happened to FD definitely made my palms sweat a little. I'm glad in the end everything was fine, and it was a "minor" incident plus just panic attacks, but oh geez.
I'm a white leftist who watches a ton of breadtube content, and I avoided watching both this and the original Break Bread video for a long time. I knew they would be challenging, and it scared me. I'm so unbelievably grateful that I finally did. Both the previous one and this one proved to be insightful, compassionate, and indeed, sometimes challenging. But it is good to be challenged. It is good to learn and grow, and I can't thank you enough for everything you do to make the type of content that so many white leftists need to see.
Posted before F.D's pinned comment and there's a complaint in the replies.
So, I'm pushing the content of my comment down below the link you click to see the rest of longer comments.
Because it may be considered to contain a light spoiler.
And, I don't want to be disrespectful. Even when what is said is critical.
***Comment Imminent***
Back in the comments again to say: I'm so glad you went for evaluation immediately! Y'all, understand stroke is one of the leading causes of death for Black folks in our age demo, in part because med professionals routinely assume we're too young for that. I've had 3 mini-strokes and had my symptoms dismissed multiple times. Please make sure you know the signs, seek medical attention (my physical therapist has actually been the most helpful), bring someone if you can, and advocate for yourself if necessary. We gotta take good care of ourselves, and then each other. 💞
Oh, and: Black. It's Black. It's blickity, blickity, blickity, blickity BLACK. 💯
And, the video pure flames!!! **Dancehall Air Siren**
But, erebody know that. 😘
black is not a word you capitalize
As a white guy with cardiac issues who's had a stroke and heart failure when I had just turned 30, I can't even imagine what it is like for black and brown people. It took me a day to convince them something was wrong when I had the stroke, and even then it took a few hours for them to see I had prior myocardial. And when I had my first round of heart failure, it took three days and four drug tests to convince them that not only did I not do any drugs, but that I rarely drank, too (the username here is a bit of a joke.) With the well documented unwillingness of the medical community to listen to minorities, it has to be Sysifian, given the shit I had to go through from my privileged position.
Medical industry do not care about black people. I'm sooo triggered this year haha. Idk why. 🤷🏾♀️
@@drunkenfarmerjohn42 right? My mom's a medical professional, yet all that does is give you a front row seat to the dysfunction, rather than better access. Knowing what the fuckery is and having an advocate or/and the ability to advocate is critical.
I hope you have ways to heal that are helpful to you.
Stress-related conditions are doing numbers on us, but life doesn't need to be this way. We can do better.
It's so weird watching this video, because it's helpful and informative, but even just talking about left tube drama feels like a waste of time that makes me angry. But that thesis you come to at around 2 hours in is a perfect summarization of why I hate left tube drama and why I don't watch a lot of video essays about leftist stuff anymore. It's so frustrating in ways I can't really articulate. I'm also one of those people in your subscribers that doesn't really watch that many of your videos anymore, but it's mostly because of the video length. I rarely have that kind of time to watch a video 30+ minutes long due to life, but at the same time, the reason I do stay subscribed here and on Patreon, is because whenever I get to tune in, you bring a voice that isn't like mine and that I'll get to hear and appreciate because it expands my views.
Next video 1 hour tops I promise
This is why I react against others who say that “cancel culture isn’t real; it’s just accountability.” Yeah, “cancel culture” as the right sees it does not exist, bc people like JKR, Chappelle, and the like could disappear into the woods tomorrow and live just fine with their fortune. It’s when the animosity, hate, and obsession is turned on people that don’t have that golden parachute, who depends on these communities in large part to help them deal with this s**** reality we live in. It’s the whole “you asked for it when you put yourself out there” fallacy. It’s easy to forget that online “celebrities” are people until that person self-harms as a direct result of the vitriol, and even then, there’s so much separation between creators and their audience that the latter is above accountability (which is just ironic on so many levels).
Cancel culture is all about control
Celebrities should be treated as the real people they are, in real life, nobody is canceled they are just not respected any longer. Cancel culture does not exist, or the known racists transphobes and pedos of the platforms would not have supporters but they all do.
This video made me SO DAMN UNCOMFORTABLE, and for that I'm honestly extremely grateful. I don't agree with every take you have here, but I understood where you came from each time you talked about someone or something. Drama is inherently divisive so I think its fine to have nuanced opinions about it that diverge with another.
You did challenge a lot of the things I think about different personalities on the left. I ended up pausing in several places because my perception of different situations was challenged. I would then go to their channels and see what they had to say from the side I didn't see or hear about. (Hard to be specific without spoilers)
Thank you for being a weird in between from the various leftist spaces on youtube/twitch. At least to me it feels like you are. IDK what others would say but you def introduced me to perspectives that I've never seen before.
I went to the comment to express a very similar sentiment, and I'm happy it has already been done well.
Admitting that Landis influenced you is honestly the most seen I've felt from a video. That's a deep shame I do not admit, but can't ever escape.
It kills me that his wrestling video is one of the best explainers for it. Because I can't, in good conscience, recommend it to people, but, man, does it nail why wrestling is great.
@@drunkenfarmerjohn42 a few questions, if you're willing.
Is it that video that's a problem for you or him in general?
Is there anything that could make you ok watching or recommending him?
If not how long would that reaction feel appropriate? In 20 years would you still feel the same?
I too loved max landis's content and cut him out when the truth came out. I'm genuinely curious about how other people feel about it.
@@kaemonbonet4931 Kevin Spacey has some terrible skeletons, yet, Seven, American Beauty and The Usual Suspects are still great movies.
It's a balance of judging the creator vs the art they created and I believe long as the art doesn't represent the the ugliness of the creator, one shouldn't feel like they can't consume it.
A good example of an artist's ugliness being represented in their art is R. Kelly as it's nigh impossible to hear his "love/sex" songs, and not think they're aren't the direct results of his real life escapades with underage girls
@@kaemonbonet4931 So, both him in general and that video in particular. Two of the women in it are alleged victims of his abuse. As to making me okay to watch it? If the women involved forgive him, or, if not forgive him, at least give him a pass going forward, maybe?
Why on earth would you be ashamed? You have no connection to or understanding of my personal life. You should be totally fine enjoying whatever you want; it's the stigma being put on it that makes it sick. Is it just because I'm such a minor figure? I can name twenty or thirty major political and artistic figures with more frightening and damning allegations than I ever endured. But I don't think anyone is "ashamed" actively of enjoying their work. It's just another ugly piece of a culture, tbh. It's surreal to see people talk about like "sentencing" for their own enjoyment of my work based on real life situations they only know a tiny decimal fraction of thanks to a public shaming.
I love watching "Breadtube" videos, leftist politics videos, but it is a weird world for me. I didn't start watching youtube, period, until I was 23-ish. I grew up extremely poor, without a computer or internet access. I was marching in strikes and attending rallies with my parents before I could walk, and all throughout my life. I joined activist groups in my teenage years and spent all my university as a political and disability activist, engaging in very violent protests in my home country when social issues became a matter of life and death.
So often, I do find it a bit silly to witness what happens here, in this online space. A little insignificant. I am on the far-left, the far, far away left, to the point where what angers people enough to "cancel" others for appear insignificant, even ridiculous at times, to me. It's hard to be angry at someone for a tweet when I've been beaten bloody by strike police before I was 18 and saw unspeakable violence done to me and my friends during the protests of my uni years. I've been an activist for over a decade before I even watched my first Breadtube video.
Also I think not being an american probably detaches me further from what people are being cancelled over, especially up until I became fluent in English because that was one hell of a learning curve (yeah, having to ask your English-speaking friends what the n-word means because you keep seeing it thrown around like it's the worst insult possible and having an entire course-worth of historical and social context explained to you is a dumbfounding experience).
I love your videos, especially because in the activist circles I'm in, the talks about race are very different from what I hear on your channel or from other black leftist creators, because what racism looks like in my country is actually completely different from what it seems to look like in the US. So it teaches me a lot, and I was able to bring some of your points to talks we had in our groups. It's fascinating to see a breakdown of cancel culture from the left done this way, especially since I saw a lot of these cancellations happen in real-time without ever fully understanding what had been done wrong (most likely because of the cultural shock, I assume). A great video!
You have an interesting perspective. Might I ask about what's different about how racism looks like in your country?
It certainly feels different in my country.
Also, quite an interesting channel you've got there, paints a very interesting picture of a person in conjunction with this comment.
There are many kids (here defined as “human beings under the age of 18”) who experienced actual violence at the hands of riot police in the wake of the George Floyd protests who still “get angry at tweets.”
If you simply replace the word “tweet” there for “messaging” this goes back a ways.
I think the possible difference between you and these other folks is that they interpret a rhetorical connection between messaging and the real world violence they experience.
I’m not saying that there are no situations where the examination of this rhetorical connection becomes silly. Sometimes it does.
That said, getting angry at messaging is a valid defense against the rhetorical tactics that result in scapegoating and then violence. Especially for people who are often scapegoated and often experience violence because of that scapegoating.
It seems strange to me then to suggest that one of the reasons an individual wouldn’t get angry about tweets is that they’ve experienced real violence.
consider it a blessing in disguise you didn't get into youtube until you were 23. I'm seriously not kidding. breadtube is like watching someone try to make money off high school politics while using the lingo that barely represents what its really for, followed by tons of angry commentors
Thanks so much for sharing your voice and perspective. I think a lot of the cancellation mindset does come from people who are incredibly privileged and can’t actually tell the difference between something that’s uninformed or ignorant, and something that’s actively supporting systemic oppression. F.d speaks to this a bit when talking about how many of those in the Breadtube sphere are apolitical in terms of their action. As someone who came from a ton of privilege and was encouraged to be blind to all of this, I’m using what I gain from videos like this to actually engage in activism (around actual policy, not around shit people say on the internet). Hopefully that’s what more and more folks are starting to work towards.
@@meh6757 this is a very good point, like some have said in the comments experiencing violence doesn't make you immune to internet fighting. Getting even a slither of more power online that in real life can just make one go even harder since your voice finally seems to be heard
I've never commented on any of your essays, but I want you to know I consider you the brightest (broadly meant) of RUclips's creators since I joined it in 2006. There have been days where I've been so beaten down by the blah of our times leeching into everything, and the one thing that made me come off the edge and take a breath was you talking about things calmly, tirelessly, honestly, and in depth.
Love, and take care always!
Thank you so much FD. It’s all about that empathy and praxis. Much love from Chicago. ❤
I think this video is helping me to reassess my own reactionary behaviors around calling out creators and checking facts. I think I need to put more thought into how I handle each case.
I agree. That was my main takeaway too
Same!
I think the kids need to get offline more too. Oh good god am I turning into "that guy"!? Oh gods, no! But seriously, there is work that needs to be done RIGHT NOW, more like yesterday, in our communities. Minutes spent in online spats over some creator's stupid joke or whatever are minutes wasted that people around us need more. All these online fights are just pissing into the wind. We need to watch our RUclips or whatnot, and when we're done put it away and go out and do something. Something real, with tangible effects. The place where we live is more important; when the whole world turns into our "village" online we lose sight of what actually needs doing to help the real people around us. Thinking online activism does anything spreads us thin and makes us ineffectual. Meet the people in your town, find out what we can do to make their lived lives better and do it.
1:41:29 lindsay’s cancellation was so weird to me because it was all so arbitrary. she was forced to dig up so much trauma to apologize for things that happened years ago. they acted like she was a committed racist, ableist, transphobe, homophobe, and antisemite. people refuse to understand that people can change and move on in the way they think without announcing it. it was such an absurd exaggeration of harm and there were such astounding leaps of logic that it’s hard to take any of the criticism of her seriously.
the twitter "tolerance" mob managed to accomplish what 4chan "the internet's hate machine" couldn't. And peeps pretend that the zealots on the left aren't toxic.
And she was "canceled" for a take that many male reviewers had already made. Such as Honest Trailers who made the comparison of Raya to Avatar as well.
@@satinsleevesPersonally, I think her cancellation was more about her being the “RUclips Disney defender” who made a comment against a new movie, and the Disney stans felt betrayed and had to hit her hard. Take it from someone who’s met and seen a lot of Disney stans over the years: the moment someone implies Disney aren’t original, the stans want your head 😒
1:56:29 truer words have never been said. Great analysis. Much needed.
the desire some of them had to go for people Lindsay talks to was wild.
I've been thinking about how "cancel culture" mentalities are similar to the unbending and unforgiving criminal justice system in this country (ofc no amount of cancelling will ever amount to the atrocities of the justice system) but of course FD Signifier talked about it months ago.
Also, if you see this, take care. Always put yourself and your family first, you don't owe your health to youtube viewers.
Jared Bauer, formerly from the channel Wisecrack, makes this point I really liked about cancel culture. He talked about there being responsibility not only on the speaker, expression but how there needs to be a responsibility placed on the listener, who interprets that expression. Cancel culture has this tendency to put all the responsibility on the speaker, thereby punishing any measure of ambiguity despite the fact that so much of the world is vague to us. I think it's a great idea to push for a kind of interpretive hygiene or responsibility, to question whether or why we might be promoting a biased misinterpretation of events when calling for cancellation, but in truth it maybe suggests a level of self-awareness that is frankly naive to expect in other people.
This is such a minor note, but it is the funniest thing in the world to me that someone like Jenny Nicholson is incorporated into the "Left tube" umbrella. It really highlights how arbitrary and algorithm-driven the whole thing is. It's all artifice. Imagine accusing the 3-hour Vampire Diaries analysis video of not having enough "political intention". Verbena isn't praxis!
I've been thinking a lot lately about how our popular political language is bereft of the adequate vocabulary to describe systems of power and their movements in society. I'm tired of running in circles and want to break out of these tiresome cycles. Ironically Philosophy Tube's video on Violence helped me a lot in starting to formulate a framework for what power is, but... I know I still know basically nothing. And I'm glad for everyone else who speaks on that void in political consciousness.
Genuinely my best answer to this is that, during the breadtube early days, the term really just applied to a group of people who were friends - Jenny has privately socialised with Lindsey Ellis, with Contrapoints, etc, and therefore she was thought of as in that sphere. I think that's where spurious attempts to cancel her have come from to a large degree too, it's never really been about her content, just that some people really hate Lindsey/Natalie and anyone who doesn't condemn them, and therefore Jenny also needs to have crimes attributed to her too. (I could also imagine the initial instigators being some chan types, who knew that those kind of accusations would get some traction with the right crowd.)
@@hystericaldameI’ve also seen people get on Jenny because they somehow think it’s her job to get Reylos to not be racist
Star Wars fandom shit, istg
Yeah Jenny’s an interesting one to put under that umbrella, I mean hell, I consider Linkara to be more lefttube than she is, given his own connection to Lindsay Ellis and the handful of times he’s gotten serious/political on Atop The Fourth Wall. I think the most political I’ve seen Jenny get is calling out Poe’s retconned Rise of Skywalker backstory for being racist.
@@Cdr2002 wasn't she weird about john boyega though?
@@frankestrada485 not that I can recall from any of the Star Wars videos of hers I ever watched. Never seemed to have a problem with him or Finn. Never followed her twitter or other social media accounts
YT tone policing a prominent black content creator on Black History month, par for the course. Keep it up FD!
LMAOOO REAL SHIT DAMN
And right after they took down Berleezy like damn
well he had SWEARS so clearly everything else he had to say is unimportant /sarcasm
Big facts
What is this weird idpol about FD's race or what month it is? People of different races are allowed to have disagreement especially when FD is making shit points
Hey FD, please don't feel like you need to carry the weight of the world on your shoulders. While creators like you have done an enormous amount to light sparks, it's us, the audience, who can chose to keep the flames going, not only in dialogue, but in actions outside of online spaces. It should be this way: no one person is the end-all-be-all of the community. You've already done so far above and beyond in having a positive impact. Please put your health and family first. We'll be here if/when you're ready.
Seeing more creators talk openly about the process of being cancelled really helps to illuminate that it's a shared fear, regardless of who you are. I make barely any content these days just as a casual comic artist online, but I also used to be a lot less afraid of the internet and random people on it. I still love creating, but I don't know. I always assume the people putting their stuff out there regularly are just the ones with the backbone for it, and I hope as I grow I'll develop more of one.
Even writing THIS comment, my brain is scanning just in case XD always scanning
Triggered sexual ptsd tho. Sheeeeesh😏
If you take their word for why they were "canceled," I can see why that would be scary.
The problem is when I actually recognize the person, I can see they are completely ignoring the big stuff and just pretending that these tiny nitpicks are what turned everyone against them.
Some of this is just gross to watch. It would be like if he had a segment with JK Rowling, he asks why she was canceled, and she responds with "I used the wrong pronoun by accident on twitter once." Then you scroll down and see everyone talking about how fickle everyone is and how easy it is to be canceled.
I honestly feel like it's bordering on gaslighting.
@@DriscolDevil He specifically picked examples of fake cause harassment here. The fact that you're comparing JK Rowling who works with literal neo fashies and is disowned by half of her own comunity - the terfs to people who barely have an online footprint says more about you than the video.
@@crazydragy4233 So DJ Mueler only got fake criticism?
It sure is funny how you can assume that while knowing nothing about what he did, I guess that's the magic of editing for a very trusting audience.
@@DriscolDevil Since you're such an expert why not run your mouth productively? You're literally just going "nuh Uh and I don't like him" in the comments, which is very silly to put it nicely
yo don't let these niggas take you out with this stress brother. Drop what makes you happy! My Patreon dollars aren't going anywhere.
@29:42 LMAOOOOO
Keeping the grift alive, huh?
@@MisterHeroman Cope. Cope and endure.
Simp
this guy supports abusers and engages in Edrama when he has a goddamn child. Embarrasing
@@MisterHeromanWhat makes it a grift my friend?
you've helped me realize just how hostile parts of the leftist space are to bipoc. i've now stopped associating with that space and stopped supporting it's figureheads. your videos over the years have genuinely played a role in me bettering myself both as an lgbtq+, bipoc ally and as a human being. much love to u FD
Sorry, English isn't my first language.
What does the bi in bipoc mean?
@@michimatsch5862 It stands for Black Indigenous People of Colour.
@@michimatsch5862 BIPOC stands for “black, indigenous, and (other) people of color”
@@michimatsch5862yeah it doesn’t mean 2, like bi means in many other English words (which could easily be confusing at first)
I see. thanks a lot for the explanation.
I really appreciate how frank and forthright F.D is - not a lot of political activists would be willing to highlight failings of specifically their ideological activism groups.
I really believe he's one of the best minds on this platform
I hardly ever comment on RUclips videos anymore, but after watching that last part, I just need to say something. I’m really happy you’re still here. As one of the said children of the bourgeoisie in college that you mentioned briefly, your videos (while still being some form of entertainment obviously) have genuinely encouraged me to keep learning about communities I am not a part of (specifically the black community). Even if you hadn’t said it in an earlier video, I could easily see how you were a teacher once with how patient and articulate you are in explaining complicated subjects. In doing so, it almost feels like you’re providing a safe space to discuss often intense subjects that are obviously necessary to talk about. And while I can’t speak to everyone’s experience, I can say that my time spent watching your videos always make me want to be a better person, just by virtue of seeing how wonderful you and your work are. If you ask anyone who knows me personally, they can attest that I praise your channel quite regularly to anyone who will listen. So, if you were to ever quit RUclips alongside Lindsay (another favorite of mine) for your health, you would be leaving behind a wonderful legacy that deeply matters to this random person on the internet. And for the sake of you, I hope that your health always comes first and sees nothing but a steady incline. Something tells me that the world needs more people like you sticking around here.
Finally (re)watching this now that it's up for good, and oh boy does it still hit so hard! You are such an important voice in this part of the internet - sending all my love and support 💜
The Lindsay Ellis thing still shocks me. I never saw much of her content, but the fact that she disappeared forever for making a completely flat, obvious, and objectively true statement about a Disney movie is insane to me.
Literally exactly what I thought when I watched the movie. It wasn't even a hot take.
That is purity testing for you...crybullys are a disease.
And other people like the guys from cinema sins made the exact same point and there was no backlash.
@@IxiaRayne and that's saying something, considering how cringe ciniemasins is
And the clout chaser who started the dog pile- nowhere to be found
I remember schaffrillas productions having a very similar take and I thought "why is Lindsay getting canceled for a take that everyone's having"
I ran afoul of Kat Blaque several years ago. I don't know where or how but I came across an article that was written where Blaque was crowing about this (admittedly awful) person who had said some terrible things to Blaque on line was now suffering the consequences as Blaque and her community had identified the person in question, crawled inside his life and basically hollowed the man out. Among other things they had harassed his employer enough to get the man fired and Blaque accused the man of committing a literal crime with the words he had spoken to them. After reading the article I merely expressed the opinion that as distasteful as what the man had said was, it didn't rise to the level of criminality (and I explained my life experience, time as a military police officer and two of my four degrees in the legal field as well as time spent working in same, that I thought would lend some credibility to the assertion that the the man did not in fact commit a crime) and I thought the best evidence of that was that Blaque had done nothing to hold the man criminally liable; and the punishment seemed to greatly exceed the crime, and then I questioned the value of on line mob punishment and by what authority Blaque and her followers inflicted their righteous justice upon the man. Mostly I was interested in the philosophical thought behind the action Blaque and their followers had taken and I was more than a little bothered by the complete abandonment of any kind of due process or fairness in the process. I admit I had recently been exposed to Jon Ronson's excellent book "So You've Been Publicly Shamed" and the entire thought process of mob mentality and public punishment was on my mind. I was a bit surprised by the viciousness of the reply.
Blaque responded by suggesting that the man had absolutely committed a crime (disregarding both my credentials and later my actual copy and paste of the statute enumerating the crime the Blaque was insisting had been committed), and that by empathizing with the man, whose life had been upended and his ability to earn a living destroyed because of some ignorant and rude shit he said on the internet, I was also probably into the same kind of sexual predation that the man Blaque and her following had "punished" was guilty of and that any women in my life/family should fear me for the monster I most likely was.
Setting aside the obvious reasons we have due process of law, have laws to begin with (an eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind and all that), and a society created government to manage and enforce said laws I thought at the very least that Blaque would or at least should acknowledge that what they and their followers were doing was dangerous if only because of how easily this same kind "accountability" could be turned upon them by someone with a bigger platform. But Blaque and the entire lot were just too high on righteousness so my message didn't just fail to get through, I was mocked, insulted, and maligned simply for making it.
I don't know much but I do know that justice administered by a mob with no due process is no justice at all.
Fantastic analysis as usual. I was shocked to learn of your stroke. Please take care of yourself for your families' sake and ours. We need you! I wish you nothing but the best of luck!
If this hadn't been your third attempt to get this out here and get paid for your efforts, then I wouldn't have seen it. Thank you for your dedication.
I deleted my (left-wing) twitter account a few months ago and have dedicated a lot of time to detaching myself from the unbearably intense tribalism that online spaces encourage, particularly on the part of my politics. I feel like I've grown into a healthier mindset and am more holistically connected to and assured of my own political beliefs. A point of clarity I've come to is that part of abolition and the dismantling of punitive justice is challenging the compulsion to "cancel" people for supposed wrongdoing. I agree that having a large platform to spread your message is incredibly powerful and that providing large platforms to people who spread harm is, well, harmful, but I also think that dogpiling people, seeing them as irredeemable, never allowing them to grow or demonstrate their capacity to change is all the same punitive idea of "justice" that our (the US) carceral system is built around. I would love to see more videos like Broey's and discussions tying the online tendency towards "cancellation," public shaming, and dogpiling to punitive justice. I still have to unpack this and work on this, but I've been centering myself around this as I consider how to approach people I've disagreed with in the past.
My personal view is that we should be more focused on the people we interact with on a daily basis, do mutual aid for the people around you to better your own community, fuck the weird internet tribalism, let’s actually take care of our people and if possible educate them so that they have the knowledge to be able to do the same
It's so weird how cancelling started off as a way to (as I understand it) disengage from someone to improve your life, and it turned into dogpiling which feels like quite the opposite in spirit.
such a thoughtul comment from user calling themselves 'evil bob'
Wow… watching post-Vaush’s 🐴 🍭📂 incident is surreal. Little did FD know, all the wild things he said “people believe about this guy” turned out to be 100% true 😂
fd went to most recent on this video just to like the comments about vaush’s horse loli folder 😂 i dont blame him
There are a lot of people in this community with "restorative justice" in their mouth but type out punitive bullshit for clout.
Give fiq your love here man. He’s had to fight the system a million times and still trying ❤
yeah shout to him and hey Tirrrb, great videos, keep at it, you and FD def gotta collab in future
That ending was downright terrifying. Do whatever you need to do with this channel to prevent that from happening again! We'll keep watching!
Great video. The portion involving the Central Park racist dog lady and the reaction got me thinking, Real accountability can almost be defined by the lack of catharsis it invokes. Personally holding someone accountable is hard. If the goal of holding someone accountable is to prevent them from continuing the offending behavior, It takes humility and work. It's hard to encourage someone to understand their screwup and hopefully find the empathy needed to not want to do that behavior in the future. After that effort, I can see maybe finding some catharsis in retrospect, but that may be more along the lines of satisfaction.
Punishing people is easy and rewarding, but holding people acountable can be a chore. It needs to be done, but it's not really enjoyable at the time. I don't even know if this is possible in an online environment. Expecting a large community of anonymous people to approach accountability in a way that ultimately betters the offender and therefor the community, seems like it may be wishful thinking. It would be great to see it though.
1:59:36 When you were discussing how youtube is entertainment and not on-the-steet activism etc. I had a good think about how important social media is for me: as a reminder I'm a queer person masquerading as a het/cis person who is also newly "middle class" and white and a mom. And a veteran. Most if my time is spent doing manual labor or volunteering within my capacity as a disabled person. This is the most social interaction I get about topics I care about. My other inputs are podcasting and audio books.
I think a lot of this emotional attachment and parasocial relationships I have has a lot to do with lack of real in person interaction in this tiny, nearly self made island I'm in.
I know shit wasn't supposed to be this deep or real, but I'm glad to see you for as long as you wish to be seen. ❤
I felt in my soul how vulnerable you showed yourself to be after the clips from the hospital. Being vulnerable is something i don't even do in private enough, nevermind around other people.
I respected that a lot from him
That's what strength is
Annoyed that "touch grass" became assimilated as another dumb internet argument phrase because everyone genuinely needs to chill and go outside, or at least make connections with level-headed people outside these spaces (like the record scratch when talking to Hasan)
Anyway, this seems like a really tough video to make, glad you made it, and hope you are in good health now
Like it's literally just good advice. Log off. Take a breather. But now it's just another dunk phrase
@@JohnJillky true.
Personally I don't feel like it's lost its meaning
That was the prevalent thought I had while watching this. I’m biased because I don’t know much about most of the people featured here and therefore can’t care much, but I just found myself thinking, if you find yourself this invested and this deep in the rabbit hole of micro internet personalities (who you dont actually know, btw) endlessly bickering over and over, you really gotta get off the computer more
+
Lately i have been thinking a lot about how SO MUCH content on here revolves entirely around "here's this person you've never heard of and here's why they're AWFUL." And I'm realizing how pointlessly negatuve it all is.
I just watched this all in one go and omg and oof. I hope you take care of yourself and your family first of all, content can be a distant second (even if I always appreciate your videos and insight!). my sister recently went to the hospital, she is 33 and thought she was having a heart attack and had a couple of MRIs, but it turns out it was 'just' paralyzing anxiety and that came for her from the constant pushing of herself to do, to do, to do, instead of just being sometimes.
re: the video, we really need to figure out the praxis part. I feel very lonely and isolated (somehow the communities I find I can't connect with on the deeper, intimate level I need), so this casting out from community, this isolation and loneliness is something I wouldn't wish on anyone! How could anyone learn from their mistakes (ofc, there are degrees to mistakes) without support? I find relationships and engaging with people are such a vital way of learning, of growing, and kicking people out doesn't help. That's not the kind of luxury gay space communism I want! How can people who call themselves leftists and abolitionists and against the prison industrial complex then turn around and get all effing punitive? I sometimes consume drama (mostly about writers and books), but I never like comment or tweet on that stuff anymore. I really just want us all to be fucking gentle with each other (not with the system, that shit can burn!), but like do the whole ethics of love thing bell hooks wrote about. I think that's why I just try to ignore the fact that debate bros exist, they're so aggressive and exhausting and I wouldn't even know how to tell them about cultivating gentleness in their interactions.
3rd time's the charm! I already watched it on Nebula once. Getting increasingly frustrated with youtube censorship - can't imagine the level of frustration you and other creators on the platform experience with it, along with the issues you address in this video.
seriously, people need to just jump to nebula en masse this is really frustrating.
@@AnnaWillo unless I misunderstood something I think it's an invite only thing.
Is the nebula version much different? I hope I didn’t miss much.
@@wavingcat5 honestly, I wouldn't be able to say. I just left the YT video running in the background to make sure my view counted for the algorithm.
@@twzoomies I do that as well
as someone with serious chronic health issues, the last bit you shared where you realized your eye was cloudy and going to the hospital rly hit me and felt relatable. im an illustrator but i rarely put my face online. still, i know intimately that fear that comes with feeling your body collapse underneath you and there's nothing you can do about it and are suddenly at the mercy of the systems you know want you dead.
thank you for sharing and using your skills to say sth important. youve got my full support.
Yeah, as someone with chronic pain I totally feel that.
same here fam
yup shout out to my chronic illness/medical trauma homies, stay safe, y'all!
chronic spoonie, reporting for visibility and solidarity!
ngl that part had me freaked for a minute bc my dad had a stroke at 47 with very similar symptoms, and he wrote it off as a migraine. it was stress related, people really don't account for how damaging stress and anxiety can be on the body. i'm glad it wasn't something so serious for fd but that scare is still a lot to have weighing on you regardless.
It should bother us that people who believe in progressivism are so hard on those a step or a half-step behind us-or were 5-10 years ago. Progress requires having a need to progress
This was so fantastic. This has been on my mind since the Lindsay Ellis situation (which btw 'feeding frenzy' is exactly the right term for what happened there--no amount of evidence stopped the takedown-valanche) and this video made me analyze my own proclivities and impulses and comfort zones.
I would love to find a video or essay or something that dissects the relationship between content creators/parasocializing and anti-fandom/communal narcissism. I feel like the online sphere has created sort of a perfect storm for CNs to be their worst, ugliest selves, but still get the positive attention they crave because they're doing it for A Cause. Conservatives certainly embrace this but I notice it growing in Leftist circles as well (especially in the last 5-8 years). Your video on Pick Me people policing Pride was a great corner of that.
*minor spoiler (literally a single sentence regarding an analogy)*
"Policing themselves to avoid social shame" is something a *LOT* of Neuro-divergent people feel every day all day. Usually it's internalized, and leads to a behavior where we wear a mask to pretend to be "normal" to avoid shame. That's masking in a nutshell.
My wife compared it to something in the black community known as "code-switching" (I'm white(ish) and she's black so she had to explain it). Which sounds similar for the same reasons it happens (survival behavior unconsciously developed from fear/danger of being seen as "different" in unacceptable ways by the majority).
Sorry for the tangent, but since I can't comment on significant content in this video (no spoilers) figured I'd share something that I kind of pondered in relationship to a part of it.
Black neurodivergent ppl also exist...
And not only can we code switch, but we also "mask" as well
Multiple axi of opression compounding is a bitch.
What exactly do you mean neuro-divergent?? Just a reminder that neuro-divergent is a made up term that is not medical or scientific and the origin of the word leans towards everyone being neuro-divergent as there is no clear definition of normal and we all function differently. No one brain functions the same...
Code switching in linguistics is something everyone does due to different social expectations in certain spaces. You talk different around friends than you do with family than you do with your boss etc. Difference is that POC need to do it to survive
you try so hard to be in good-faith and yet so many people on the left that we should be building solidarity with have no hesitation to tear you down. i hope we see more energy like this thrive in the space, this is the right take
The left eats itself...cliché but accurate.
@@sparkflux
Yeah. It's way harder to unify under the idea of change than keeping things the same. You have to argue what change looks like.
Not even unify: no trust that we can just work on the obvious problem even though we may have differing solutions.
We could build a new boat, or patch the holes, but we have to try one or the other - and stop sabotage our own efforts to get started.
Tragic… we should be able to trust each other more - but apparently we have more trust the problems, the injustice. (Obviously, not literally, but we have more confidence that those problems and those injustices will persist)
We're trying to fix a society that does damage to people and their relations - and we're among the damaged people with the damaged relations. It makes patience, forgiveness, vulnerability, and restitution hard and makes lashing out easy and satisfying.
the left and or left tube doesnt want to be taken back by right wing apologetics. sorry FD signifier spews lots of right winger ideologies as he tries to detox from it in public
only 20 minutes in and man I'm reminded already of why I love your content so much man, you are easily one of the most introspective and thoughtful creators out there and inspire others(me at least) to also be introspective and take a deeper look within myself and my own biases. In my mind F.D your an un-cancelable giant, much love.
I watched this video with no intentions other than being entertained and mentally stimulated.
But I ended up being inspired to finally set that medical check-up that I’ve been holdin off on knowing I desperately need it. Hopefully I make it to see the appointment date.
Thanks for being vulnerable. I needed that, big bro!
We’re all so isolated and miserable and utterly disempowered all the time that there can be a tremendous temptation to terrorize someone who seems to deserve it, both as a way to feel some moral clarity and to prove to myself that I exist, because something I do can make another person jump and shriek. That’s why terrorizing J.K. Rowling won’t work: she’ll never be vulnerable to me. It’s some sick stuff, man.
They be out here gaslighting huh?👀
Is it always "terrorizing" when you publicly shame or criticize a person?
This is such a bizarre watch, I'm so sick of people using the term "canceled" to describe any kind of public criticism or mockery.
"What did you get canceled for?"
"Because I bought a house (continues to list things he bought)"
That was just....painful. no, Hassan was never "canceled" for buying a house. He was mocked and criticized, mostly by right wingers that thought it was a good "gotchya" for a socialist. He wasn't "canceled" for it. I'm so sick of seeing rich people talk about how awful their existence is because people say mean things about them online.
Worse when those rich people have no issue doing the same thing but with their massive audience.
@@DriscolDevil not always, but when it becomes an end in itself for the people who do it.
I’m not even a content creator but I am a creative and an essayist who has ambitions of authorship and I’d be lying if I wasn’t worried (to the point of neurosis) about the exact things you expressed. The idea of the being scrutinized by an unknowable other is so terrifying. The idea of being doxxed, outed, harassed… just fucking yikes.
I get why you don't go by your real name or even author name if that's different from your real name. I would probably do the same and stay anonymous.
To sum up, if you ignore social media your life is so much better.
Just finished and want to add without spoilers, I hope you are ok Man.
FD! Thank you for your words and your videos. I truly am thankful for the thoughtful perspectives and they way you make me think. Hoping your health is getting better
Ellis's cancellation was absolutely absurd it's gotten to the point where people are trying to justify someone being publicly harassed and abused over other people choosing to take the least charitable and worst possible interpretation of what someone says regardless of any other indication of their meaning or personal character
The worst one of those I saw was a bunch of chuds celebrating on Twitter and calling for Jenny Nicholson to be next. Like, WHY? Jenny is the sweetest!
@@hollandscottthomas oh yeah that's another part of it half the time it's at least partly engineered by chuds who have a great giggle when all the "stupid sjws" go and tear apart one of their own
Yeah, even at the time, I just kept thinking about how much of a bad faith interpretation you’d have to make to have a problem with what she said. Most of the people mad at her didn’t even watch Raya and therefore didn’t know about the similarities… her cancellation never made any sense to me
I miss her presence and content so much.
@@omgkatstephens While I also miss her presence, it's important to remember, her content is still there. Her contribution to feminist media analysis will always (youtube willing) still be there.
But also worth keeping in mind, her interest in making more youtube videos was already declining for months leading up to her "cancellation". She already had a new writing career and personal trajectory, and wanted out of the youtube ball and chain that had previously defined her public image. And I'm glad she's found that new space to thrive in.
Today I read about ocular migraines and strokes. I've had a couple ocular migraines when I've been seriously dehydrated and mentally stressed at the same time. The adults around me never told me I was experiencing symptoms of a stroke, because I was so young. Thankfully, it was just dehydration, and I'm glad I've learned something. Thanks for the great video! I know it's great, because is something I know I'll think about for a long time, because I have been thinking about this stuff for a long time.
Sending you love man thank you for making nuanced empathetic thoughtful content. It's needed so greatly in our world today. You don't owe anything but know that what you've contributed is valued and appreciated.
F.D. it sucks this vid had to be made. the parasocial relationships for streamers/youtubers is crazy. hopefully people learn from your video. it's amazing and very objective.
Idk if I’d say it’s objective, he definitely goes to bat for video essayists.
@@keokihiga8462 I suppose levels of objectivity are subjective
Your comment is hella ironic, considering that F.D has a history of stirring drama and lying, and you are blindly praising him due to the parasocial relationship you have with him.
@@ruaoneill9050 I wouldn't call this video objective, nor is it trying to be. He's up front about where he stands.
I would call it accurate.
Saying 'I agree with this person's takes about a debate I never watched' is Incredibly objective true.
Legit freaked out when I got to the end and you documented your hospital visit. Glad you’re okay, hope you’re able to take some time for yourself between videos because your health and well-being matter
You have to put a spoiler warning
The last part of this video was quite scary. Please take care of yourself and thank you for all the work you do.
i had watched some of both yours and Xanders videos and had no idea about this stuff. very glad you took the time to elucidate I saw a video of his talking about you and cut it off then i came here. Hope you are doing well i always enjoy and learn a lot from your insightful videos.
Your summary/take on the Lindsay Ellis situation is easily the best and most nuanced I have seen. Thank you for providing it.
Damn, I was not expecting this ending. I was gonna comment on something about the video as a whole but with that ending, I can't. I wish you excellent recovery and health, man. As much as I love your content and want to see you keep doing it, I sure don't want it at the cost of your health. Take care mate!
1000% agree!
This is an incredible video, I hope it gets more eyeballs but more than anything I hope you're ok and that you are able to do what you want to do without it costing you like this. Anxiety isn't self inflicted, it shouldn't have to harm you to make content like this. It may be entertainment but you've definitely broadened my horizons and helped me grow. I appreciate your work and hope it doesn't have to come with this expense. Lindsay expressed previously the toll that being a creator took on her physical and mental health and it honestly makes me feel guilty consuming your content, as good as it is. My change in perspectives shouldn't come at the cost of your health.
This was the best ad for Nebula I've ever seen
Spoilers:
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I just want to emphasise to all my sisters and brothers out there: GET YOUR FAMILY AFFAIRS IN ORDER RIGHT NOW!!!
My mom's husband had a stroke on Christmas that left him 100% disabled, he'd worked himself almost to death in another city to provide for his family, barely saw his pre-teen kids.
Child protection took them away from my mom immediately because she's "only" their step mom and they actually made up some racist BS to take them. They installed a lawyer and legal guardian for her husband without my mom's consent. All contracts, bank, rent, power, car etc. are in his name, so my mum is locked out of all of it. The family never finished making legal arrangements for her to become the sole parent and heir, so she may just lose the house, money and the kids if her lawyer doesn't do his job real good.
Please don't be careless like that, it can happen anytime.
Gonna fully support this point, and hopefully RUclips lets me link the resource that can help a lot with this!
Since it's the third upload, let me take away any artifice here: this video is fascinating. It is lovingly crafted, interesting, and calls on us to be better. I am sorry that youtube made it so difficult to get out and truly honored that Neil and I's little video got a mention in the beginning. I hope people sit with their discomfort before reacting, and ultimately hope that they absorb the message. Thank you for making this video
I read years ago and recently re-read "We Will Not Cancel Us," and I'm seeing the points raised therein here. Thank you for this video, you're so necessary in this space and I know that it is hard to be a personality on this platform and have a normal life. I know you know that, and that the loudest voices on any social media platform are pretty much always the most negative. Just know that I love you and your content, I introduce your stuff to anyone I can, including my enbie sibling and my gf among others. Thank you for this video, and your courage to be real in this toxic environment.
this video is ginormous and incredible, tysm for your hard work always!! and i hope you're taking it easy, that's scary fr and your family needs you more than us, so never hesitate to step away when necessary 💗
Damn, I did not expect that ending. I'm grateful I watched until the end. It really brings home a bigger point than you may have even been planning to make. It goes far beyond the debate space and I hope people consider how they prioritize their lives and what they consume.
I never liked hearing the term “Left Tube” or “Bread Tube”. I always liked creators like Hbomb, Dan Olsen, Lindsay Ellis, PhilosophyTube, Jenny Nicholson and found their channels all around the same time. I always thought of them as a sort of group of creators who just talked and shared ideas, some of whom were friends. But I never saw them as the kinds of people who would want to spearhead any kind of political movement or actively try to crate that kind of space.
I always see them as people first who are just trying to do something they like or just trying to get something out that’s interesting. They are entertainers to me, and I’m comfortable with that. I don’t need them to be anything more, and I never understood people who wanted them to be more. I don’t like putting people on pedestals, people always make mistakes and should be treated decently like anyone else.
Exactly - the most you can say about these guys “spearheading” a political movement is in that they are educating their audience, and giving them the information and understanding necessary to take part in political action WELL.
I sometimes feel like there's this expectation in leftist political movements that everybody in it must be some form of active revolutionary. The idea of just wanting to have rational beliefs but otherwise keep your nose clean and live your life treating those around you as well as you can is on par with reactionary politics. This constant checking in on people's purity, intentions and ability to deconstruct creates this loop of semantics game between people who love the smell of their own farts, thus accomplishing nothing in the process.
Honestly the first few times I heard breadtube being brought up I was soooo confused. I watch some of the essays creators belonging to it? make because the topic interests me but I don't really participate in online discourse otherwise. I still don't know what the bread is in reference of and can't tell if it's a good or bad label because I've seen it used both as an insult and not😆
@@crazydragy4233basically... At some point in time there was a bread quest; a conquest. Some dude wrote about this quest and now we have a bread tube.
@@crazydragy4233the bread part makes fun of how it’s mostly filled with white people, they are “white bread”
I like your vibe a lot and your overall worldview is packed with an underlying hope, positivity, and understanding that I found many other breadtubers lack. Of course that isn't why I showed up, but it's why I've stayed. That's all I can say without spoiling the video.
2:09:00 I’ve been thinking about this part for days now
Your awareness of being a “useful tool in the culture industry” is to me the single most important thesis in this video. Maybe I’m wrong but I don’t think anyone else on BreadTube has said it as direct and honest as you. I love watching your videos and others like them because they stimulate me intellectually. But truthfully none of it leads to real direct action, regardless of how well I understand the bigger concepts after.
I’m having trouble shaking the defeated essence of a thesis like that. I don’t think it was your intention to come across in such a way, but it’s left me with a big dark existential question. And it’s hard because these are important topics. Your videos have helped me understand and identify the toxic and fatal systems in our culture.
But if all these videos are just another way of keeping me and the rest of us ape-brains from burning down the zoo…well what’s the point?
I don’t have answers man but I hope you’re doing what’s best for you.
You're an inspiration to small black creators. I know you've been through a lot, are going through a lot, but you are highly valued
He said white bloods and crips tho😆
Excellent work 💜
I hope people actually listen to the message.
I’m in total agreement.This message needs to be heard in this time of struggle
i did my best to listen and learned a lot
Love your work!
Hi Aranock!!!
Yeah a few people on Twitter calling him a Nazi of course but that's to be expected. I do like to think that outside of some militant types that were never going to open their ears, this is something that I'll make a lot of other people think
i honestly think that we have swung the pendulum all the way to the other end when it comes to online accountability. as someone who struggles w bpd, i’ve learned to start recognizing splitting and swinging to extremes, not just in myself, but in society as well. i’ve noticed we have swung all the way from holding no one accountable and allowing creators like shane dawson to rise to the top, to an almost suspicious kind of monitoring of creators. it makes me uneasy, because where do we draw the line? how do we find that middle ground of being respectful and also speaking freely? i think the standard creators are being held to is near impossible, bc everyone is human. critique is good. cancelling creators who have caused serious mental/physical harm is good. but i think we need to bring the pendulum back to the middle. idk
And yet Shane Dawson still has a career.
@@itcouldbelupus2842 That’s a name I haven’t heard in a long time.
Okay now I am getting close to the end… I have high blood pressure and sometimes watching videos, just watching, raises it to unhealthy levels. Wishing you health and happiness, peace, comfort, love, solidarity and strength ❤️