Splintering the industry is exactly what is needed - provided tRPG enthusiasts remain and outside attention / interest holds. I would say the last near decade has been a dark age for tRPGs because of it being a golden age for D&D. Every other tRPG has been more overshadowed by D&D than at any other point in time. If D&D were to fall while awareness of tRPGs held then we might see a golden age, but if D&D falls and attention doesn't spread out, then we'll see an even worse dark age. A best case scenario would be people who loved games like Balder's Gate 3 cross over, and then spread out. Given that computer gaming has gotten extremely stale (Balder's Gate 3 stands out for 2 reasons, only one of which is that it's good. The other is that everyone else is bad...) people will be looking for gaming fixes - and some few of them might land in tRPGs especially if VTTs like Foundry and Owlbear that are system agnostic remain strong. A worst case scenario is D&D players who grow tired of Hasbro shenanigans don't cross over to other tRPGs and also stop playing D&D, and the computer gaming industry gets its act together and infamous AAA studios all put out hits even better than BG3 within the next year or two (which we know will not happen - but if it did, that would be dire news for tRPGs).
I think we're in a new renaisance without leaving the previous one, honestly. While I have no love for 5E as a system, it has done great things for making the industry accessable. The OGL debacle last year just made everyone realize they can't rely on 5E... so they're going to start expanding. Other systems, house systems, or even (and I'd love to see more indie publishers try this) System Lite/Systemless suppliments that give you guidelines, but leaves the specific mechanics vague so that a GM can use it for any system they want to use. And more players are going to find other TTRPGS, and it will help them out too.
This will also, ironically, help dungeons, and dragons get better. It will be a gigantic signal to Hasbro’s idiot executives that if they want our money, GIVING US WE LIKE HELPS.
I would think the golden age of TTRPG's is starting, since D&D is shrinking. The current state of the hobby is in a gold rush to catch as many of the fractured base as possible. This guy only thinks that it's over already because people are starting to drop 5E and go elsewhere, which is a monumental boneheaded take. The golden age for 5E is probably coming to a close, but not for the hobby as a whole. It's only been 4 days, but this guy earns my "Dumb Fuck of the Year Award."
All great points! I'd add two more: - The OSR has consistently grown over the years. Culminating in the success of Knave & Shadowdark Kickstarters this year. - There are a bunch of other RUclipsrs who picked up where Matt Colville left off. Myself included.
This will honestly help all systems, DND included, because frankly Wizards of the Coast has needed this kick in the teeth for a while, and the industry as a whole will benefit from Hasbro’s incredible blunder that was 2023. That and the OGL debacle will go down precisely as a case study for companies failing to understand their own customers.
The new TTRPGs from Darrington Press, the success of Kobold Press’s Kickstarter, and the MCDM RPG breaking $4 million on Backerkit all make 2023 seem like a big year in the industry. A lot of folks are excited for new games to come. I guess it only makes sense that someone out there would look at the same situation and think it was a bad thing. To me, the biggest threats to D&D right now seem to be Hasbro/WotC alienating its fans, and Hasbro dragging down WotC while the rest of the company isn’t doing well financially. But I’m definitely excited and optimistic about TTRPGs as a whole.
Yeah, my two groups aren't going anywhere. We also like to switch systems all the time. Main campaign is 5e, in one group, and PF2e in the other; but we loved the Aliens new system and do one shots all the time. We also take this seriously. We're all super busy, but wouldn't give this up for the world.
Also, can we also remember that the vast majority of the OGL/5e debacle is HASBRO’s doing and not WotC necessarily? It’s a lot of big corporation mismanagement that is affecting the lower tier employees.
Absolutely true. I can only scratch my head when I see a WotC post on Instagram, for example, and the Pinkertons, mass layoffs, etc. are dug up for the umpteenth time. Because some social media people can do something about it. Or as if John Hasbro is keeping an eye on the social media accounts and reading the comments.
Ben Riggs seems to differentiate between "TTRPG" and "D&D"; one is an industry, the other is a product. And D&D itself isn't a disaster, either; it's just running into corporate blunders that are hurting its near-monopoly position. It's just that its market share is sinking even while it itself is growing, because the overall TTRPG market is massively expanding for many reasons, as you highlighted in the video.
My favorite TTRPG's: 1-Cypher(generic), 2-Teenagers From Outer Space(anime), 3-Gamma World 4E(not based on D&D 4E)(post apocalyptic), 4-All Flesh Must be Eaten(zombie), 5-Battlelords of the 23rd Century(sci-fi), 6-Pathfinder 1E(fantasy), 7-5E(fantasy), 8-Palladium system(generic), 9-AD&D(fantasy), 10-Shadow of the Demon Lord(sci-fantasy/horror) and 11-Star Frontiers(sci-fi)
Maybe an end to the golden age of DND 5e…I don’t see the players migrating to 6e. Not all TTRPG’s are equal, and that makes them unique and better for the players.
Riggs is right, unless One DnD lays down the hammer and dominates as 5E did, the splintering of the player base will be similar to the 1990s, leading to less sales, less new players, and an overall slow period for the hobby. People committed enough to be, for example, watching a RUclips video on the industry, will enjoy lots of options and probably have a great time. But the industry as a whole will be worse off.
If your only metric is Hasbro’s bottom line, maybe the Golden Age is over. What is true is that it will be harder to come up with metrics, since the money will be hard to calculate- private companies do not have to produce PUBLIC financial statements
@@TheCharacterSheetBut record sales don’t mean anything when your parent company is going into yet another year projecting that they’ll be unable to even pay out owed dividends w/o taking out a loan. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying you’re wrong that D&D isn’t in trouble. But people keep pointing to everything being Hasbro’s fault (and much of it is) while pretending like Hasbro’s current dire straits isn’t going to affect WotC. Just because WotC is the smallest part of the Hasbro problem doesn’t mean the Hasbro problem isn’t going to have an effect on D&D. I think if you want to more accurately reflect the reality of the Hasbro/WotC situation, you might consider a video that explores whether or not Hasbro will begin to sell off WotC and other assets it owns. Hasbro’s bleeding money and fast approaching a bit of a death cycle. So the question is, will they consider shedding WotC or decide to break up other, lesser valuable assets first? And is it a good thing for WotC (and thus D&D) if that happens?
I personally regard the 2024 D&D books as a new edition regardless of WotC’s claims to the contrary (1e and 2e were mostly compatible with each other, and many other games have new editions compatible with old material as well). I personally am enjoying RPGs more now compared to just over a year ago, when I was seriously burned out on 5e and that seemed to be all anyone was interested in. Still, just because the industry seems healthy now doesn’t mean it will stay that way, but I do tend to be a pessimist nowadays.
That's fair, although the more we hear and see about the 2024 core playtest, the more it really does seem like just basic errata and way too little for a new edition, but we can understand that not everyone feels that way!
Unfortunately I sorta see his point. I know we're seeing a plethora of new systems arriving and being funded with million-dollar crowdfunders, but that's no guarantee of continued success. The barrier of entry to TTRPGs is thick and tall. Adults (read: people with disposable income) have a hard enough time haranguing friends and family for a biweekly or even monthly game, let alone trying a whole new system every other month. Meanwhile kids and teens seem as uninterested as they've ever been in TTRPGs. Now, there will always be enthusiasts willing to try new things, but that market will never be a fraction of what the mainstream market for 5e is/was. And that's what he means by 'Golden Age'. Not quality, but sheer amount of dollars in the industry. All of those publishers that made their names writing for 5E will now have to compete to be the week's/ month's game of choice. That's not the same game (sorry for the pun). The systems are coming out, they're being funded, and that's good. But we still need to see how they do in the long run. We need to see what the interest for their adventures and supplements look like. Because my fear is there won't be as much money in the industry any time soon.
Wotc saying that the new thing will be completely backwards compatible and just like an updated 5e, to me is like the trains saying they are going to be on time here in the UK. I'm very sceptical, even if the train arrives on time, I'll only believe that I'll reach my destination on time once I've stepped off the train and onto the platform at my destination. The equivalent for this new d&d thing would be having completed a campaign without issues. But I think it will sell just fine regardless, as you mentioned there are still plenty of people in the hobby willing to spend money, that includes the d&d player base itself. One thing this so called splintering might do is spread out the TTRPG player base more thinly across games, and may make it harder to find new players and GM's. That said, willingness to learn new systems is probably on the rise. With the new D&D books coming this year, and some of the Pathfinder remaster already out, it presents a crossroad for many of us who aren't planning on leaving the hobby.
I mean, we won't even argue with that, because that is a very legit way to look at it, which is why we kinda said a "new" golden age, because we are owned by a comicbook site at the end of the day so we are very concious of our metal based timelines around here :D
I mean if anything, you could use the Disney era classifications and say TTRPGs are in a Renaissance era, with maybe the OGL issue being the “dark age” for a few months.
@@dwil0311 The Golden Age is when people making RPG knew it was about Immersion, Suspension of Disbelief, Complete Character Agency with Impactful Consequences on the Campaign, short, medium and long term. When It wasn't about "Storytelling" collaborative or not.
Licensed RPGs: The very first RPG I ever purchased personally was the 007 game from Victory Games/Avalon Hill. And then the WEG Star Wars. And then... (Yes, I am An Old™)
I do reeally wish, that BG3 had inspired people to try.. OTHER.. TTRPGs than D&D. Hasbro is FAAAR too greedy for me to support D&D and as you said, it is NOT the only game in town (literately)
5e may slide down the ladder a notch or two, but it won't die. Other systems will take the shared space it leaves. It's market share is far enough above the others that it can take that hit. I just hope the current development of new systems continues. Variety is the spice of life.
Maybe D&D has hit a bit of a rough patch this year. Meanwhile, however, Traveller is still going strong, Call of Cthulhu is still terrifying , Cyberpunk has a new edition, Vampire the Masquerade is still being creepy, and Runequest might actually be in the best state it has ever been in [certainly as far as new material is concerned]. All these classic games are doing fine, none of them have any dnd dna to speak of. On top of which we have slews of new games, new systems, and most importantly, new players. I used to think ttrpgs would die out with the 80’s generation, I don’t think that anymore.🎉
NGL, I somewhat share his opinion: people making their own TTRPG in order to leave Hasbro/WotC/D&D5E behind means a fragmenting of the TTRPG community and its shared resources. With people and companies making stuff for their preferred system instead of a single, common, shared one, materials and products are going to be scattered. Good stuff you like from one company will no longer be easily installed into your preferred system, requiring translation and adjustment. Back when this OGL mess was happening, I thus wondered if it would be better for the rightly outraged community to leave 5E but stick together and make only one new system. But in that discussion, someone pointed out that _having exactly one system for everyone helped cause this mess_ (I mean, the main reason of the OGL mess is corporate greed and control, but everyone working under 5E and one OGL made that seem possible to do for Hasbro/WotC). I don't know if this is the end of the recent TTRPG Golden Age or things are going to continue still into a still bright or brighter TTRPG future. But regardless, *what I do know is that we have to get out from under Hasbro/WotC's damned shadow.*
I played DnD and gonna play. Just like a system and don't need to change. And whatever is being released, whoever crates "brand new system" don't care, see nothing wrong with playing same as before. TTRPGs are gona when players are, so not soon
My top 3 upcoming TTRPGs is Tales of the Valiant, MCDM, and DC20. All of these are going to bring something unique to the table that I like for different reasons. TOV will likely be my main game as its the closes to 5e but DC20 I think may be the most fun of the 3. MCDM I think I like for smaller games as opposed to campaigns.
I'd say next year, after we see how this year goes, we can say if it's over or not. I will be shocked if dnd2024 doesn't sell a bunch. Most people don't know or won't care about everything with Hasbro if the game is decent. Tho already a most of my groups are pumped to try the MCDM RPG. Personal I cannot wait for Stormlight also!
Beautiful! Your rant is poetic prose to my ears that soothes the soul and provides much-needed comfort in a sea of hearsay and nonsense. Thank you for being a voice of reason and a bastion of sanity.
It's more like we are entering a new golden age of ttrpgs. What passes away is not the ttrpg golden age - it's dnd's golden age. While i doubt it would happen, dnd finally falling and thus no linger dominating the market would've been great for the industry. Ttrpgs could really do with a gaming culture more akin to video games. Another problem ttrpgs are plagued by is how a lot of companies aim for wotc-like "premium" format with expensive art and such, only being able to achieve that through paying their artists and other staff miserably little. But yeah, fall of dnd would've been a great thing for this hobby
I would like us to stop saying that this is a golden age. It kind of implies we have peaked and it all downward from here which I think is far, far from the truth. Changes in the industry would likely expand and grow our hobby further as it have for decades with innovation such as crowdfunding, VTT, solo RPGs, PDF, open license systems, new game mechanics, games for children, deluxe edition, print-on-demand, streaming, podcast, etc. I personally think there is still a lot of expansion possible with VTT and the OGL fiasco have created a slew of new open licenses that will likely bear some fruits in the future. 2023 was also a great year for TTRPG games journalism which I think makes the industry better and healthier. And who knows what new designs, business practices or tools will grow and improve our hobby in the future but I think the future look bright.
I think the "golden age" may come to an end, the same way a boardgame "golden age". Let me explain. In 2008 -2010 there was a a dramatic rise in popularity. New RUclips channels ware exploding in popularity. Kickstarter records got broken. And now. The rise is not that dramatic, KS record are not broken so often. But sales are steady. Companies are established.
I feel like its just the typical focus on the state of Dungeons and Dragons instead of the TTRPG as a whole. I mean me personally Im so tired of buying books my group just made our own system and put all my books away 🤷♂️
I have to wonder, are third party creators riding a wave of anti-Hasbro sentiment? Will this bump burst like after the pandemic? I hope that this fear is unfounded.
“The golden age of TTRPGs” ending implies that TTRPGs are completely going away never to be played again. TTRPGs are still INSANELY popular, as the Kickstarter data shows.
D+D 5E has never been an indication of a Golden Age. I've never played 4E or 5E, but we've never stopped gaming. Hero System, Pathfinder 1E and 2E, World of Darkness, and others have kept two gaming groups I'm in going every week for the past 20 years. It doesn't take headlines to have public consumption and new players.
It might be the author’s golden age that’s dying. But what is the golden age of RPGs? I would contend it’s the 70s and 80s. 70s kicked it all of with DnD and end with AD&D, Traveller, Rune Quest, and Star Trek. 80s start with Dragon Quest, Top Secret, Champions, and Call of Cthulhu. Elf Quest, Paranoia, GURPs, Twilight 2000, BattleTech, Cyberpunk, and Shadowrun by the end of the decade. So sorry. The best creative period ever for RPGs was the 80s where you had stores small stores filled with 10, 20, 30 different RPGs and only one of them was AD&D
Saying that the TTRPG industry is in peril because D&D 5e is not selling as well as before is like saying that the movie industry is going to fail because Marvel movies aren't as successful as they were a few years ago.
I actually think it's good that the industry is fracturing. Everyone competing for your wallet will have to try to make a better games than they otherwise would. I'm hoping that we will see more playthroughs online, more games in gamestores, and more games on virtual tabletops. Having options is nice.
That’s what they said when Pathfinder came out, but that turned out to be a bad take given how predatory of a company Paizo turned out to be. It really hurt the industry and was the impetus for what we see today.
just slowly watching hasbro die due to poor management i expect wotc or at least dnd to be sold off soon to pay the bills but dnd is not all ttrpgs the golden age is well over for it but everything else is just starting to glimmer
Idk man, i think this tweet is only wrong insofar as your response video is wrong. The future is uncertain. Youve both made good points and i think it would be foolish to dismiss either prediction.
If this guy was any kind of decent historian, he'd be aware of D&D's previous low points and how the industry didn't die. The mid- to late-90s were a bad time for AD&D 2E (TSR going bankrupt being the big event), while other TTRPGs (like White Wolf's World of Darkness games) did great. 2008-2013 was another down time, because of the D&D 4E debacle, yet other game companies prospered (this is when Paizo first release Pathfinmder 1E). The TTRPG industry will be fine.
This self appointed nobody is saying that d20 OGL’s “my way or the highway” approach is the greatest defining characteristic of all RPGs. The highway is the true RPG Golden Age. Thank Gygax almighty, we are free at last!
@dwil0311 Oh, I know. I was being facetious about invoking his name. But much like any artform, RPGs have evolved into a much grander scope of entertainment.
I think the golden age of TTRPGs is just starting, D&D may be on the downfall but that’s WotC problem. The players are trying other games and liking them. More players playing more TTRPGs so…
Wait a minute, you cant just brush past ghe existence of a Demon Slayer RPG. How have i not heard of this? Internet advertising has failed me as i should be dead centre in the venn diagram of anime and TTRPG
TTRPG's aren't about huge companies churning out products. TTRPG's are about the players. We are the most ravenous fandom that exists. We are geeks, and we have money. .The "3rd Party" vendors are knocking it out of the park, in giving us plenty of content. If Hasbro wants to screw up the only part of their company that is making money, too bad for them. I would rather give my money to small makers anyway.
Objectively he's correct, just because the amount of money being thrown around in the industry is the highest it's ever been does not mean that the games themselves or the players themselves are the best they've ever been. In fact like most industries, it's turned into a popularity contest with every company bidding for your wallet. Every industry has million dollar kick starters, that's no indicator of growth, like you said all that shows is there's money to be made. look at card games, board games, video games kick starters and its all the same. The passion and care and accessibility of these IS in the past and the BEST years of the ttrpg main space is long past... No one younger then 18 gives a single shit about any of it and it will all fade eventually.
@@TheCharacterSheet idk you tell me how Hasbro, EA and literally countless others have had mass layoffs in years that have seen the highest sales like you said.... Correlation buddy, not causation
I think his points are spot on. I remember this happening with TSR and all of the various settings back in the day as well as the D20 glut that accompanied 3e. I think the hype for MCDM is misplaced as well. Once people realize it is just a repackaged 4e, the shiny veneer will crumble.
Hasbro has just had its stock downgraded. There will be no BG3 to save this woke disaster of a company this year. The modern TTRPG hobby may not be dead, but it's dead to me. Much like American Comic Books. Or Disney.
No idea who Ben Riggs is, but he's pretty ignorant and I don't care about his worthless opinion, I'd guess he's gotta be pretty young or pretty cave like to not know the fantastic options we had 25+ years ago and now it's even better, nice rant showing his ignorance.
Ben Riggs wrote one of the best books about TSR/WotC. He opinions should be be dismissed outright. You might not agree with him, but the visible decline in the trust of WotC and great reduction in people’s disposable incomes, makes me think we could be on the way down.
We disagree with the shocking amounts of flat out factual errors he made in his post, and while we do think he is knowledgeable about TSR/WotC using that as the sole metric for the health of TTRPG's is just flat our horrific data sampling.
@@TheCharacterSheet my suggestion is to for you guys to ask for an interview with Ben. Twitter is the lowest form of communication. I would be interested in some back and forth.
And to add on further it could be argued that Critical Role and Stranger Things are what greatly boosted 5e's popularity, one is a famous tv show and the other is a group of well known voice actors who play with genuine camaraderie and fun, that unfortunately is not the standard of most 5e games
Normies haven't even heard of any TRPGs other than Current Edition, and those that play RPGs at all are Current Edition Or GTFO. This has been known for over 40 years now. Stop denying this when there's generations of receipts proving it, starting with why Ryan Dancey made D&D3 an Open Game. Ben Riggs is right: As goes WOTC, so goes the business of the hobby. Having experienced the 1990s crash I've seen first-hand what happens when D&D falters. Colville and others like him ought to know better, but in their hubris they forget their history.
I honestly feel like if Free League was the only publisher on the planet we'd still be spoiled for choice.
Honestly, can't say that you are wrong
I absolutely agree!
Splintering the industry is exactly what is needed - provided tRPG enthusiasts remain and outside attention / interest holds. I would say the last near decade has been a dark age for tRPGs because of it being a golden age for D&D. Every other tRPG has been more overshadowed by D&D than at any other point in time. If D&D were to fall while awareness of tRPGs held then we might see a golden age, but if D&D falls and attention doesn't spread out, then we'll see an even worse dark age.
A best case scenario would be people who loved games like Balder's Gate 3 cross over, and then spread out. Given that computer gaming has gotten extremely stale (Balder's Gate 3 stands out for 2 reasons, only one of which is that it's good. The other is that everyone else is bad...) people will be looking for gaming fixes - and some few of them might land in tRPGs especially if VTTs like Foundry and Owlbear that are system agnostic remain strong.
A worst case scenario is D&D players who grow tired of Hasbro shenanigans don't cross over to other tRPGs and also stop playing D&D, and the computer gaming industry gets its act together and infamous AAA studios all put out hits even better than BG3 within the next year or two (which we know will not happen - but if it did, that would be dire news for tRPGs).
Well said!
I think we're in a new renaisance without leaving the previous one, honestly. While I have no love for 5E as a system, it has done great things for making the industry accessable. The OGL debacle last year just made everyone realize they can't rely on 5E... so they're going to start expanding. Other systems, house systems, or even (and I'd love to see more indie publishers try this) System Lite/Systemless suppliments that give you guidelines, but leaves the specific mechanics vague so that a GM can use it for any system they want to use.
And more players are going to find other TTRPGS, and it will help them out too.
This will also, ironically, help dungeons, and dragons get better. It will be a gigantic signal to Hasbro’s idiot executives that if they want our money, GIVING US WE LIKE HELPS.
The renaissance is getting renaissancier! I'm running out of Kallax again because of all the neat games coming out.
I would think the golden age of TTRPG's is starting, since D&D is shrinking.
The current state of the hobby is in a gold rush to catch as many of the fractured base as possible. This guy only thinks that it's over already because people are starting to drop 5E and go elsewhere, which is a monumental boneheaded take.
The golden age for 5E is probably coming to a close, but not for the hobby as a whole.
It's only been 4 days, but this guy earns my "Dumb Fuck of the Year Award."
All great points!
I'd add two more:
- The OSR has consistently grown over the years. Culminating in the success of Knave & Shadowdark Kickstarters this year.
- There are a bunch of other RUclipsrs who picked up where Matt Colville left off. Myself included.
This will honestly help all systems, DND included, because frankly Wizards of the Coast has needed this kick in the teeth for a while, and the industry as a whole will benefit from Hasbro’s incredible blunder that was 2023. That and the OGL debacle will go down precisely as a case study for companies failing to understand their own customers.
Firmly agree!
The new TTRPGs from Darrington Press, the success of Kobold Press’s Kickstarter, and the MCDM RPG breaking $4 million on Backerkit all make 2023 seem like a big year in the industry. A lot of folks are excited for new games to come.
I guess it only makes sense that someone out there would look at the same situation and think it was a bad thing.
To me, the biggest threats to D&D right now seem to be Hasbro/WotC alienating its fans, and Hasbro dragging down WotC while the rest of the company isn’t doing well financially. But I’m definitely excited and optimistic about TTRPGs as a whole.
Yeah, my two groups aren't going anywhere. We also like to switch systems all the time. Main campaign is 5e, in one group, and PF2e in the other; but we loved the Aliens new system and do one shots all the time. We also take this seriously. We're all super busy, but wouldn't give this up for the world.
Also, can we also remember that the vast majority of the OGL/5e debacle is HASBRO’s doing and not WotC necessarily? It’s a lot of big corporation mismanagement that is affecting the lower tier employees.
something we try and stress a lot too!
Absolutely true. I can only scratch my head when I see a WotC post on Instagram, for example, and the Pinkertons, mass layoffs, etc. are dug up for the umpteenth time. Because some social media people can do something about it. Or as if John Hasbro is keeping an eye on the social media accounts and reading the comments.
Ben Riggs seems to differentiate between "TTRPG" and "D&D"; one is an industry, the other is a product. And D&D itself isn't a disaster, either; it's just running into corporate blunders that are hurting its near-monopoly position. It's just that its market share is sinking even while it itself is growing, because the overall TTRPG market is massively expanding for many reasons, as you highlighted in the video.
My favorite TTRPG's: 1-Cypher(generic), 2-Teenagers From Outer Space(anime), 3-Gamma World 4E(not based on D&D 4E)(post apocalyptic), 4-All Flesh Must be Eaten(zombie), 5-Battlelords of the 23rd Century(sci-fi), 6-Pathfinder 1E(fantasy), 7-5E(fantasy), 8-Palladium system(generic), 9-AD&D(fantasy), 10-Shadow of the Demon Lord(sci-fantasy/horror) and 11-Star Frontiers(sci-fi)
I do agree that we really should stop using the WotC name in the gaming press/ hobby sphere. It’s Hasbro, all the way down.
Maybe an end to the golden age of DND 5e…I don’t see the players migrating to 6e. Not all TTRPG’s are equal, and that makes them unique and better for the players.
Riggs is right, unless One DnD lays down the hammer and dominates as 5E did, the splintering of the player base will be similar to the 1990s, leading to less sales, less new players, and an overall slow period for the hobby.
People committed enough to be, for example, watching a RUclips video on the industry, will enjoy lots of options and probably have a great time. But the industry as a whole will be worse off.
As far as I'm concerned it will be 6e D&D, the Golden Age of D&D was the mid 70s.
If your only metric is Hasbro’s bottom line, maybe the Golden Age is over. What is true is that it will be harder to come up with metrics, since the money will be hard to calculate- private companies do not have to produce PUBLIC financial statements
Even by that metric, despite Hasbro being a dumpster fire this year...they made record sales of D&D.
@@TheCharacterSheetBut record sales don’t mean anything when your parent company is going into yet another year projecting that they’ll be unable to even pay out owed dividends w/o taking out a loan. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not saying you’re wrong that D&D isn’t in trouble. But people keep pointing to everything being Hasbro’s fault (and much of it is) while pretending like Hasbro’s current dire straits isn’t going to affect WotC. Just because WotC is the smallest part of the Hasbro problem doesn’t mean the Hasbro problem isn’t going to have an effect on D&D. I think if you want to more accurately reflect the reality of the Hasbro/WotC situation, you might consider a video that explores whether or not Hasbro will begin to sell off WotC and other assets it owns. Hasbro’s bleeding money and fast approaching a bit of a death cycle. So the question is, will they consider shedding WotC or decide to break up other, lesser valuable assets first? And is it a good thing for WotC (and thus D&D) if that happens?
I personally regard the 2024 D&D books as a new edition regardless of WotC’s claims to the contrary (1e and 2e were mostly compatible with each other, and many other games have new editions compatible with old material as well). I personally am enjoying RPGs more now compared to just over a year ago, when I was seriously burned out on 5e and that seemed to be all anyone was interested in. Still, just because the industry seems healthy now doesn’t mean it will stay that way, but I do tend to be a pessimist nowadays.
That's fair, although the more we hear and see about the 2024 core playtest, the more it really does seem like just basic errata and way too little for a new edition, but we can understand that not everyone feels that way!
@@TheCharacterSheet The changes to classes are bigger than from 1e to 2e IMHO (with the exception of the Bard).
Unfortunately I sorta see his point. I know we're seeing a plethora of new systems arriving and being funded with million-dollar crowdfunders, but that's no guarantee of continued success.
The barrier of entry to TTRPGs is thick and tall. Adults (read: people with disposable income) have a hard enough time haranguing friends and family for a biweekly or even monthly game, let alone trying a whole new system every other month. Meanwhile kids and teens seem as uninterested as they've ever been in TTRPGs.
Now, there will always be enthusiasts willing to try new things, but that market will never be a fraction of what the mainstream market for 5e is/was. And that's what he means by 'Golden Age'. Not quality, but sheer amount of dollars in the industry. All of those publishers that made their names writing for 5E will now have to compete to be the week's/ month's game of choice. That's not the same game (sorry for the pun).
The systems are coming out, they're being funded, and that's good. But we still need to see how they do in the long run. We need to see what the interest for their adventures and supplements look like. Because my fear is there won't be as much money in the industry any time soon.
Wotc saying that the new thing will be completely backwards compatible and just like an updated 5e, to me is like the trains saying they are going to be on time here in the UK. I'm very sceptical, even if the train arrives on time, I'll only believe that I'll reach my destination on time once I've stepped off the train and onto the platform at my destination. The equivalent for this new d&d thing would be having completed a campaign without issues.
But I think it will sell just fine regardless, as you mentioned there are still plenty of people in the hobby willing to spend money, that includes the d&d player base itself. One thing this so called splintering might do is spread out the TTRPG player base more thinly across games, and may make it harder to find new players and GM's. That said, willingness to learn new systems is probably on the rise. With the new D&D books coming this year, and some of the Pathfinder remaster already out, it presents a crossroad for many of us who aren't planning on leaving the hobby.
The Golden Age is 1974 through 1979. There has been Silver and Bronze since. And now we are in current age.
I mean, we won't even argue with that, because that is a very legit way to look at it, which is why we kinda said a "new" golden age, because we are owned by a comicbook site at the end of the day so we are very concious of our metal based timelines around here :D
I mean if anything, you could use the Disney era classifications and say TTRPGs are in a Renaissance era, with maybe the OGL issue being the “dark age” for a few months.
So the Golden Age was the age when no one played TTRPG’s?
@@dwil0311 The Golden Age is when people making RPG knew it was about Immersion, Suspension of Disbelief, Complete Character Agency with Impactful Consequences on the Campaign, short, medium and long term. When It wasn't about "Storytelling" collaborative or not.
Licensed RPGs: The very first RPG I ever purchased personally was the 007 game from Victory Games/Avalon Hill. And then the WEG Star Wars. And then... (Yes, I am An Old™)
I do reeally wish, that BG3 had inspired people to try.. OTHER.. TTRPGs than D&D. Hasbro is FAAAR too greedy for me to support D&D and as you said, it is NOT the only game in town (literately)
I backed the MCDM TTRPG.
Im also a patreon.
I will throw money at those people as long as they'll take it from me. such a great group.
5e may slide down the ladder a notch or two, but it won't die. Other systems will take the shared space it leaves. It's market share is far enough above the others that it can take that hit. I just hope the current development of new systems continues. Variety is the spice of life.
Maybe D&D has hit a bit of a rough patch this year. Meanwhile, however, Traveller is still going strong, Call of Cthulhu is still terrifying , Cyberpunk has a new edition, Vampire the Masquerade is still being creepy, and Runequest might actually be in the best state it has ever been in [certainly as far as new material is concerned]. All these classic games are doing fine, none of them have any dnd dna to speak of. On top of which we have slews of new games, new systems, and most importantly, new players. I used to think ttrpgs would die out with the 80’s generation, I don’t think that anymore.🎉
NGL, I somewhat share his opinion: people making their own TTRPG in order to leave Hasbro/WotC/D&D5E behind means a fragmenting of the TTRPG community and its shared resources. With people and companies making stuff for their preferred system instead of a single, common, shared one, materials and products are going to be scattered. Good stuff you like from one company will no longer be easily installed into your preferred system, requiring translation and adjustment.
Back when this OGL mess was happening, I thus wondered if it would be better for the rightly outraged community to leave 5E but stick together and make only one new system. But in that discussion, someone pointed out that _having exactly one system for everyone helped cause this mess_ (I mean, the main reason of the OGL mess is corporate greed and control, but everyone working under 5E and one OGL made that seem possible to do for Hasbro/WotC).
I don't know if this is the end of the recent TTRPG Golden Age or things are going to continue still into a still bright or brighter TTRPG future. But regardless, *what I do know is that we have to get out from under Hasbro/WotC's damned shadow.*
@7:40 well, D&D isn't doing fine. Simply because Hasbro owns it. It could be doing so much better.
Sadly, we'd say it's more like D&D is doing good, but under almost anyone elses care, it would be doing PHENOMENAL
@@TheCharacterSheet Yes, exactly.
I played DnD and gonna play. Just like a system and don't need to change. And whatever is being released, whoever crates "brand new system" don't care, see nothing wrong with playing same as before.
TTRPGs are gona when players are, so not soon
My top 3 upcoming TTRPGs is Tales of the Valiant, MCDM, and DC20. All of these are going to bring something unique to the table that I like for different reasons. TOV will likely be my main game as its the closes to 5e but DC20 I think may be the most fun of the 3. MCDM I think I like for smaller games as opposed to campaigns.
I'd say next year, after we see how this year goes, we can say if it's over or not.
I will be shocked if dnd2024 doesn't sell a bunch. Most people don't know or won't care about everything with Hasbro if the game is decent.
Tho already a most of my groups are pumped to try the MCDM RPG. Personal I cannot wait for Stormlight also!
Beautiful!
Your rant is poetic prose to my ears that soothes the soul and provides much-needed comfort in a sea of hearsay and nonsense.
Thank you for being a voice of reason and a bastion of sanity.
It's more like we are entering a new golden age of ttrpgs. What passes away is not the ttrpg golden age - it's dnd's golden age.
While i doubt it would happen, dnd finally falling and thus no linger dominating the market would've been great for the industry.
Ttrpgs could really do with a gaming culture more akin to video games.
Another problem ttrpgs are plagued by is how a lot of companies aim for wotc-like "premium" format with expensive art and such, only being able to achieve that through paying their artists and other staff miserably little.
But yeah, fall of dnd would've been a great thing for this hobby
The true golden age has not even started, since my system is not released yet!
I would like us to stop saying that this is a golden age. It kind of implies we have peaked and it all downward from here which I think is far, far from the truth.
Changes in the industry would likely expand and grow our hobby further as it have for decades with innovation such as crowdfunding, VTT, solo RPGs, PDF, open license systems, new game mechanics, games for children, deluxe edition, print-on-demand, streaming, podcast, etc.
I personally think there is still a lot of expansion possible with VTT and the OGL fiasco have created a slew of new open licenses that will likely bear some fruits in the future. 2023 was also a great year for TTRPG games journalism which I think makes the industry better and healthier.
And who knows what new designs, business practices or tools will grow and improve our hobby in the future but I think the future look bright.
I think the "golden age" may come to an end, the same way a boardgame "golden age". Let me explain.
In 2008 -2010 there was a a dramatic rise in popularity. New RUclips channels ware exploding in popularity. Kickstarter records got broken.
And now. The rise is not that dramatic, KS record are not broken so often. But sales are steady. Companies are established.
Well, a good point, but kickstarter records for TTRPG's are in fact being broken in crazy numbers.
@@TheCharacterSheet yes. The trend started a bit later so I also think we are not at the peak yet.
I feel like its just the typical focus on the state of Dungeons and Dragons instead of the TTRPG as a whole.
I mean me personally Im so tired of buying books my group just made our own system and put all my books away 🤷♂️
I have to wonder, are third party creators riding a wave of anti-Hasbro sentiment? Will this bump burst like after the pandemic? I hope that this fear is unfounded.
“The golden age of TTRPGs” ending implies that TTRPGs are completely going away never to be played again. TTRPGs are still INSANELY popular, as the Kickstarter data shows.
Well i think they mean like how there was a golden age of comic books. They are not gone but not as popular as they where in there golden age
Sometimes, you have to break something before you put it back together to make it better.
Absolutely ridiculous thread from someone who's credited as a historian of the game. I was in shock, what a horrendous take.
It was certainly a very, very skewed lens to view the entire TTRPG scene through
wow that take of his is wild
Decline or boom, I'll keep playing old-school D&D.
D+D 5E has never been an indication of a Golden Age. I've never played 4E or 5E, but we've never stopped gaming. Hero System, Pathfinder 1E and 2E, World of Darkness, and others have kept two gaming groups I'm in going every week for the past 20 years. It doesn't take headlines to have public consumption and new players.
it's kind of bizarre how this guy of all people are saying this. He wrote Slaying the Dragon! He should have a better grasp of the industry than 99%!
The golden age for dnd is over
But for the ttrpg it just started
It might be the author’s golden age that’s dying. But what is the golden age of RPGs? I would contend it’s the 70s and 80s. 70s kicked it all of with DnD and end with AD&D, Traveller, Rune Quest, and Star Trek. 80s start with Dragon Quest, Top Secret, Champions, and Call of Cthulhu. Elf Quest, Paranoia, GURPs, Twilight 2000, BattleTech, Cyberpunk, and Shadowrun by the end of the decade.
So sorry. The best creative period ever for RPGs was the 80s where you had stores small stores filled with 10, 20, 30 different RPGs and only one of them was AD&D
Another great take on the situation!
Saying that the TTRPG industry is in peril because D&D 5e is not selling as well as before is like saying that the movie industry is going to fail because Marvel movies aren't as successful as they were a few years ago.
It may be the end of the golden age of D&D, but not the end of TTRPGs.
I actually think it's good that the industry is fracturing. Everyone competing for your wallet will have to try to make a better games than they otherwise would. I'm hoping that we will see more playthroughs online, more games in gamestores, and more games on virtual tabletops. Having options is nice.
Not when they're competing through dark patterns and over monetization LIKE THEY ARE
That’s what they said when Pathfinder came out, but that turned out to be a bad take given how predatory of a company Paizo turned out to be. It really hurt the industry and was the impetus for what we see today.
Wait did I see a Godzilla RPG mention
just slowly watching hasbro die due to poor management i expect wotc or at least dnd to be sold off soon to pay the bills but dnd is not all ttrpgs the golden age is well over for it but everything else is just starting to glimmer
Yes, as the golden age of D&D may be dimming, the golden age of TTRPGs as a whole is arriving
We need a TTRPG extinction event, were D&D falls so other games can finally rise and shine
Idk man, i think this tweet is only wrong insofar as your response video is wrong. The future is uncertain. Youve both made good points and i think it would be foolish to dismiss either prediction.
If this guy was any kind of decent historian, he'd be aware of D&D's previous low points and how the industry didn't die. The mid- to late-90s were a bad time for AD&D 2E (TSR going bankrupt being the big event), while other TTRPGs (like White Wolf's World of Darkness games) did great. 2008-2013 was another down time, because of the D&D 4E debacle, yet other game companies prospered (this is when Paizo first release Pathfinmder 1E).
The TTRPG industry will be fine.
So is the Golden Age of TTRPGs really dying...or are we literally experiencing that Golden Age RIGHT NOW! Let us know in the comments!
Golden age for ttrpg no, the golden age for Hasbro and d&d maybe.
This self appointed nobody is saying that d20 OGL’s “my way or the highway” approach is the greatest defining characteristic of all RPGs.
The highway is the true RPG Golden Age. Thank Gygax almighty, we are free at last!
Gygax would vehemently oppose this sentiment. It was him personally that wanted a more restrictive game.
@dwil0311 Oh, I know. I was being facetious about invoking his name. But much like any artform, RPGs have evolved into a much grander scope of entertainment.
😂😂😂 imagine thinking the death star creating jobs for the universe is a good thing.
People need to stop saying TTRPG when they mean D&D and vice versa.
I think the OP missed the entire point of the tweet
I think the golden age of TTRPGs is just starting, D&D may be on the downfall but that’s WotC problem.
The players are trying other games and liking them.
More players playing more TTRPGs so…
Wait a minute, you cant just brush past ghe existence of a Demon Slayer RPG. How have i not heard of this? Internet advertising has failed me as i should be dead centre in the venn diagram of anime and TTRPG
TTRPG's aren't about huge companies churning out products. TTRPG's are about the players. We are the most ravenous fandom that exists. We are geeks, and we have money. .The "3rd Party" vendors are knocking it out of the park, in giving us plenty of content. If Hasbro wants to screw up the only part of their company that is making money, too bad for them. I would rather give my money to small makers anyway.
Objectively he's correct, just because the amount of money being thrown around in the industry is the highest it's ever been does not mean that the games themselves or the players themselves are the best they've ever been.
In fact like most industries, it's turned into a popularity contest with every company bidding for your wallet.
Every industry has million dollar kick starters, that's no indicator of growth, like you said all that shows is there's money to be made. look at card games, board games, video games kick starters and its all the same.
The passion and care and accessibility of these IS in the past and the BEST years of the ttrpg main space is long past... No one younger then 18 gives a single shit about any of it and it will all fade eventually.
I mean, if money and sales aren't an indicator of market health, what possibly could be?
@@TheCharacterSheet idk you tell me how Hasbro, EA and literally countless others have had mass layoffs in years that have seen the highest sales like you said....
Correlation buddy, not causation
The worst take of 2024 *so far*
I think his points are spot on. I remember this happening with TSR and all of the various settings back in the day as well as the D20 glut that accompanied 3e. I think the hype for MCDM is misplaced as well. Once people realize it is just a repackaged 4e, the shiny veneer will crumble.
Hasbro has just had its stock downgraded. There will be no BG3 to save this woke disaster of a company this year. The modern TTRPG hobby may not be dead, but it's dead to me. Much like American Comic Books. Or Disney.
No idea who Ben Riggs is, but he's pretty ignorant and I don't care about his worthless opinion, I'd guess he's gotta be pretty young or pretty cave like to not know the fantastic options we had 25+ years ago and now it's even better, nice rant showing his ignorance.
Ben Riggs wrote one of the best books about TSR/WotC. He opinions should be be dismissed outright. You might not agree with him, but the visible decline in the trust of WotC and great reduction in people’s disposable incomes, makes me think we could be on the way down.
We disagree with the shocking amounts of flat out factual errors he made in his post, and while we do think he is knowledgeable about TSR/WotC using that as the sole metric for the health of TTRPG's is just flat our horrific data sampling.
@@TheCharacterSheet my suggestion is to for you guys to ask for an interview with Ben. Twitter is the lowest form of communication. I would be interested in some back and forth.
Thank you for being the voice of reason. D&D 5e IS FINE. It's not going away and will ALWAYS be the No 1 TTRPG in the world.
I’m more into PF2e now, only play 5e with one group of irl friends
Always? That's debatable.
No king rules forever…
And to add on further it could be argued that Critical Role and Stranger Things are what greatly boosted 5e's popularity, one is a famous tv show and the other is a group of well known voice actors who play with genuine camaraderie and fun, that unfortunately is not the standard of most 5e games
Normies haven't even heard of any TRPGs other than Current Edition, and those that play RPGs at all are Current Edition Or GTFO. This has been known for over 40 years now. Stop denying this when there's generations of receipts proving it, starting with why Ryan Dancey made D&D3 an Open Game.
Ben Riggs is right: As goes WOTC, so goes the business of the hobby. Having experienced the 1990s crash I've seen first-hand what happens when D&D falters. Colville and others like him ought to know better, but in their hubris they forget their history.
Ben Briggs sound like a hasbro shill that got salty when his playgroup tries out different TTRPG