Deadly Overcrowding: The Tragedy Aboard Tour Boat Ethan Allen
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- Опубликовано: 27 май 2023
- On Sunday October 2nd, 2005 the Tour Boat Ethan Allen suddenly capsized during what was an otherwise uneventful cruise on Lake George in New York. This preventable tragedy became a lesson in modern day small passenger vessel stability.
ATTORNEY TOM'S LEGAL AFTERMATH:
Ethan Allen: • A Web of Neglect - The...
EL Faro: • Head First Into A Hurr...
▶REFERENCES, SOURCES & FEATURED MEDIA: pastebin.com/917N0GeY
*Views presented are my own and the appearance of U.S. Department of Defense (DoD), NTSB & any other entities' visual information does not imply nor constitute their endorsement.
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Gulf of Alaska - Northern Belle: • Overlooked & Overloade...
Bering Sea - Scandies Rose: • Frozen, Dark & Far Fro...
Atlantic - El Faro: • Disastrous Indifferenc...
North Atlantic - Ocean Ranger: • Tragically Inexperienc...
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▶ A B O U T
Hey, I'm Sam! Full Time Parent & Creator. With a background in Workplace Safety Instruction, Logistics/Supply Chain Management & Industrial Robotics Programming/Engineering... Safety begins with Cooperation, Compassion and Critical Thinking.
Your Safety Matters. 
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▶ATTORNEY TOM'S LEGAL AFTERMATH:
Ethan Allen: ruclips.net/video/D8fi6X-kia8/видео.html
EL Faro: ruclips.net/video/BjiGHV3Si3A/видео.html
▶WANT MORE MARITIME?
Branson - Stretch Duck 7: ruclips.net/video/0yG5C94qM2Y/видео.html
Gulf of Alaska - Northern Belle: ruclips.net/video/nGl9J8MFpFw/видео.html
Bering Sea - Scandies Rose: ruclips.net/video/KFevuP5ua_8/видео.html
Atlantic - El Faro: ruclips.net/video/-BNDub3h2_I/видео.html
North Atlantic - Ocean Ranger: ruclips.net/video/cyNFhthQ97Qh/видео.htmlttps://ruclips.net/user/sgaming/emoji/7ff574f2/emoji_u25b6.png
I never knew you were a teacher, as is my wife. I appreciate you taking the time to teach others outside of your normal job.....teaching! I like your narration style and tone.
I am a Coast Guard Marine Inspector, and have conducted simplified stability tests. Just wanted to mention that the average passenger weight used for the calculations is no longer 140 pounds. It was bumped up to 165 lbs following these incidents, and is now 185 lbs. Which it's been for at least 5 years. You can Google the USCG SST job aid and view the instructions and form to be completed for an SST.
Overall great video, and glad to see the Attorney Tom Collab. Unfortunately I had to post from this RUclips account because my main one's comments won't show up on this channel. I'm thinking it may have been shadowbanned for pointing out the channel's frequent confusion on a small detail, or a complete swing-and-a-miss on the stability animations shown in the Scandies Rose video
One of the best safety documentaries I've ever seen - and typical of your high standards.
... And I've seen quite a few ... Thank you once again for explaining to me why I will own nothing and be happy ... ;-)
Great video Brick Immortar! You mention that the NTSB reported that to "current standards" the modified vessel should have only been rated for 14 passengers. I am curious what the modified vessels would be rated for, based on the 1968 era standards.
Wait, the diminutive attorney Tom ??
Friend of Nick " the nose " Rekiata?
What da fug ?? If it's the same person, how did you even find him ???
* this is a long-running, friendly joke in the Rekiata streams
You know, one thing I've noticed is that adding a roof of any kind to vessels like this you make what would've been a stable vessel into a deathtrap prone to capsizing.
Yeah, there’s a reason normal open ocean boats have open decks with only a small roof for shade over the console. Roofs catch wind like kites, and raise the boat’s center of gravity.
It's just as bad with a flat bottom. Then it's a sail.
Additionally, adding the full roof and side panels (or worse- full window panels) instantly changes what would be an escapable capsizing into a struggle just to get out of the vessel before then having to get to the surface before running out or air.
omw to modify my Stranded Deep builds ASAP
Well that's why it was camvas originally. Often on small boats it is like a convertible car roof or bimini in boat speak. Although it's not comparable either the average 36 goot sailboat has like a ton or two of ballast in the keel and displaces maybe 5 t. They are extremely stable compared to these roughly 30-40 foot recreational boats, like the older episode with the "Ducks". Similar design.
And a proper bost isn't open either, the cabin can be sealed, so you're also not flooding all the time because of 1 wave and you have redundant pumps, usually an automatic electric another electric, manual hand pump and buckets of course. I doubt these things have a big bilge pump. Even then, with the open top and no stabilty (compared to a blue water sailing yacht of the same size and approx weight) if you do develop a list you capsize immediately. They should also have escape hatches like catamerans. But really not open top, have some sealed buoyancy and some weight in the keel. They shouldn't be able to sink unless damaged, it's already fiberglass so why not make it double hull filled with air and open back like a "Laser". Water just runs out the back, the boat can't sink unless the hull is pierced and with proper ballast it's not gonna capsize just like that. And then just canvas roof secured with velcro. The awesome thing about that is you can just tear it off. If it seperates into multiple sections you can just swim through it head first and the roof just comes apart. These type of boats and these type of accidents seem far too common and really I don't see a challenge in making a substantially safer design without it really costing any more to make. Fiberglass is super cheap. The double hull would be like an extra 500 bucks of epoxy and glass. The hull is cheap anyway, it's the engine that costs a significant amount of the total price. Boats with busted engines go for pennies on the dollar. You can find a 30 foot sailboat in good condition but no engine, or engine seized/dead for like a grand or two. 5 grand with a working engine. It's really not that expensive to invest in basic safety. I
Anytime someone says "let's add a roof" to a vehicle that isn't supposed to have one; you know you're in for a ride.
Once knew someone who thought it’d be a grand idea to add a canopy to a 12 foot John boat that went on Lake Michigan. I wouldn’t take a 12 foot John boat on Lake Michigan anyway. They used the boat with that canopy one time before I saw the canopy in the trash…
-and not a very good one, to add.
Unless that vehicle is a Chrysler Sebring.
"it'll be fiiiiiine"
Plus the maximum person load for that little boat seemed a bit steep
As someone who was an emergency services diver, specially trained for this sort of search and recovery. and someone who has dove Lake George. I'm really impressed with that Dive School Team being able to quickly locate the vessel, and extricate the victims. New York's freshwater lakes become black pits of silt at the bottom. that becomes an inky black cloud if disturbed. And doing an underwater "perimeter Search" is not as easy as one thinks. It actually takes a bit of practice and coordination. Somebody in that team knew what they were doing big time.
One wrong kick and vis can drop to zero.
@@chrisworthen1538I'll stick to South Florida
@@michaelm1573key largo, baby!
Thank you for your service Andrew. 👍
Of all of the NYS rivers and lakes, Lake George is renowned for its excellent visibility, being a rock-bottomed lake formed from the collapse of a mountain range. Depends on where exactly they sank and the weather but on a good day you can get 30-40ft of visibility in the rocky parts of the lake, although obviously all lakes have some silt. One thing that is consistent however is that the temperature drops off big time once you dive below a certain level, and also the weather can change rather rapidly, since being flanked by mountains on both sides gives you very little warning of approaching storms. LG is the best freshwater swimming in the eastern seaboard by far, one of the reasons I go there every year. Still, I imagine it's probably claimed many lives over its existence.
It amazes me that at least one prospective passenger could forsee potential problems while standing on the jetty, but the operator carried on regardless.
I wonder how many people told them that they were being ridiculous by expressing their concerns.
@@lolbuster01 I was looking at that on the diagram too; how are you supposed to distribute weight evenly when one side of the vessel has more seats than the other? On a bus, sure, go nuts with offset seating, but when it's something as inherently wobbly as a passenger vessel? You'd think weight management would be more important to the operator. It shouldn't have been up to the tour group to tell people to go sit on the other side, the operator should have been managing the boarding.
Yes, this video really encourages me to trust my gut no matter what someone else says in a situation like this.
In my experience, basically every workplace accident or disaster is preceded by at minimum a few days, and at most a few decades of people regularly reporting the problem, the problem not being addressed, and then something's going wrong.
I honestly think we shouldn't use the term "workplace accident" because it's almost always something that was obviously going to go wrong and is very clearly negligence, even if it isn't legally provable as such.
As soon as you said “wake,” I got chills. I’m a kayaker who paddles in quite busy waters, and I have to have my head on a swivel to both avoid larger vessels and deal with their wakes. It’s mildly terrifying when a wake sneaks up on you, and my boat is a single occupant one, under my own control and easy to escape if it capsizes. I can only imagine how helpless those people felt.
It's also possible to role a kayak with resnoble reliability if your on your own in deep water this can be critical.
@@thomasbaker6563 Yeah, but it’s not always possible depending on gear and experience/comfort level. In a panic situation, bailing out can be a better option if rolling isn’t possible or safe. I’d much rather bail out and self rescue than struggle to roll and lose time and air.
@@nyanbinary1717 If your self rescue is good it's definitely a sensible option. Just depends on personal ability and kit. The big advantage of a role is that you stay warmer than a self rescue from water
I used to whitewater kayak and rolling is one of the first things I learned. You can roll a kayak easily without a paddle if you don't panic even in whitewater.
@@Lemmon714_ I imagine rolling is a pivotal skill in whitewater. I'm a sea kayaker though, and they're built for stability rather than maneuverability. It's a physical challenge to roll a 14' long, 24" wide boat, let me tell you. 😂
One of the bravest things ive ever heard a man say was one of my coworkers when tasked to assemble a roof spoiler on a semi truck approaching me and asking me to do it for since he didnt feel comfortable anymore doing it and was afraid
I admired him that moment and gladly helped him
Its not that our ladders, crane and so on are unsave, otherwise i wouldnt work with them but to simply have the character to admit and own up to ones own fears instead of creating a dangerously stressful situation out of useless pride for me is a damn manly thing to do
And yes of course i made fun of him and gave him shxit for it
Just because i admire him doesnt mean were no longer friends
Bi, your respect for the souls lost is something I respect. Often times on social media, these stories will just be shared for shock and awe. You do a great job honoring the dead and indeed, their souls.
Agreed! The content was presented in a way that was respectful to the victims and those who were involved.
Agreed. In social media it seems people acknowledge tragedies as the current thing with a total absence of sincerity. Brick Immortar shows honor and sincerity.
That’s why this channel is my FAVORITE in disaster coverage - focus on the nitty-gritty of what went wrong, solemn respect for those lost.
I need to tell you that nothing creeps me out more then the rendered clips of the boats underwater. Your videos on the duck boats also gives me chills. The sad slow image of the boat sinking down in the water and the muffled sound with the water are so chilling. It really makes you 'feel' the tragedy. Thanks for sharing these stories, most I've never heard of.
The thought of discovering behemoth ships thousands of feet at the bottom of the ocean fills me with dread. I love learning about maritime disasters but it's truly nightmarish to put yourself in those positions.
the image of a battered ships hull slowly appearing from the murky water… spooky. Especially if you’re the first to lay eyes on it since it sunk.
I was there that day helping to pull both survivors and victims, thank you for covering this topic both tastefully and respectfully
Thank you for your help
Glad to see hero’s out here raising healthy families !
something that disturbs me greatly, is the amount of time the vessel was in service in exactly the configuration that caused the capsize. From this we can infer that 1. the vessel was rarely, if ever loaded at or near capacity or 2. the vessel was often operated in a patently unsafe condition but the operators were "used" to it healing and rolling. I think the fact that two people declined to board a paid for trip is enough to make anyone question how stable that vessel looked at the dock.
I think many of us have had "near death experiences" without realizing we were moments or a few feet from our ends because of conditions we were oblivious to. Sightseers might have drowned years earlier had the factors aligned just a little bit differently in Groton, yeah.
Kinda reminds me of that one ocean liner that docked in chicago or st louis, that because of a few refits tended to do that, and tipped over as it was being boarded, killing more of it's passengers, than the Titanic, by ratio.
19:03 Looks like the vessel had always operated port heavy with 3 row seats on the port side and 2 row seats on starboard. experienced boaters will notice the loll on any boat and looks like there were 2 who did. experienced skippers would distribute the weight before any sailing (in case of wakes!)
@@pandadimsumtruck3757 I don't get why anyone would knowingly put 50% more seats on one side of a vessel
It never fails to astonish me how many of these boat accidents occur because of poorly planned modifications. Tall, heavy canopies, extra decks, lengthening the hull... I know that engineers are expensive, but gambling with people's lives will always lead to tragedy.
It's always about profit.
This reminds me of the crash of Air Midwest flight 5481 in 2003. One of the major factors was the use of outdated passenger weight averages to estimate the total weight so the aircraft took off overloaded. The final NTSB report came out in early 2004, I wonder if anyone thought this issue may affect other modes of transportation.
The aircraft was overloaded, but the crash wouldn't have happened if maintenance to the aircraft had been performed correctly.
We're talking three times too many passengers here, so I doubt the scale of the screw up has any modern aviation equivalent.
Yeah modern aviation generally doesn't have these sort of CG issues just from loading passengers. The vast majority of the times when these accidents happen they happen because cargo was loaded incorrectly or something broke.
There was a Air France flight where a cabin fire caused a load shift with all the Passengers running towards the back. With no hydraulics, the pilots couldn't recover from the sudden shift and lost control in a stall.
I'm really surprised that these boats never had an incident. If they were that close to instability, there must have been some close calls over the years.
Sam's commentary *operated for 40 years without a 'major' incident* hehe. Yeah sure...like how many 'minor' incidents were there that they got away with? Like the old grandpa joke...been driving 50 years and never had an accident! Yeah but you sure saw a lot in your rear-view mirror didn't you.
Close calls can become routine, and lose their ability to shock
@@alandpost Yes it's a problem in aviation too. People get used to it. It worked before so it must work again. Until it doesn't.
These types of things have huge safety margins built in. For example with smaller boats the way they determine max load capacity. They measure the weight of displaced water before it swamps the vessel. That weight is immediately divided by 5, right off the bat giving you a huge margin of error. Then they subtract 600lbs for equipment, even if it's just a small 200lb outboard and a 6 gallon fuel tank. Whatever is left over is the load it is allowed to carry.
I can easily see how a situation like this develops. Those modifications ate into the safety margins. They may never have really even had a close call until something big happened like this. Something that would normally not be an issue because of the extra caution built in.
I once took a water taxi in a Caribbean country. They dangerously overloaded it. I volunteered to sit on top in case things went wrong. Longest 15 minutes of my life.
Jep always be up top in questionable boats... difference between having a stoey to tell and your life insurance being paid out. Especially sketchy Ro-Ro ferries in bad weather. These things scare me after stories like the Estonia or theany car ferries on the great lakes. And here in Europe you see these ferries lots. They are monsters.
It may be years since I was studying marine engineering and I didn’t pursue it as a career path but my eye was twitching from the beginning with the modifications, especially because the shape of the hull so very obviously wasn’t made for much leeway when it comes to the center of gravity being moved up. Not to mention all that added weight.
I know you talked on it later, it just was so wildly obvious to me and you would have hoped that ~someone~ would have thought of that during the modification process since there had to have been people who are way more educated than me working on this.
To tack on to what you were talking about at the end, sometimes you have to risk offending because it might just save lives even if everyone around you says “it’s how we’ve always done it”
Part of my problem here is the CG...they passed it safe. However, unlike here in the UK (for example)...the CG in the States is a gov 'agency' in reality. Who monitors the ones doing the monitoring? The answer is no one usually.
That last phrase has killed so many people.
My takeaway from this video is that passenger vessels need to have weight limits, not passenger limits. Although this would require weighing passengers and crew during boarding (along with any accessories they are carrying), it would eliminate uncertainty regarding whether a vessel is overweight.
I've always thought this when entering elevators. "Capacity 16 people or 1000 kg"
Well I already am 130 of those kg and the average adult male is what? 80 kg? The other 15 better be children then. lol
they do - the line on the side
Yes they shoukld, but the real takeaway is (and the common theme in one most of these vids/accidents) is stop modifying stuff into something it was never supposed to be.
@@HDreamer Me too!! Load occupancy based on a 140 lb (63 kg) adult is incredibly outdated as well. I'm not sure about other countries, but I'm certain that in the US, the average is much higher. Weight limit is definitely the way to go.
That's exactly why Plimsol marks were invented. Maximum load lines would prevent this from happening. No need to weigh or estimate passenger weights. One question is, who the hell throws a 3 foot wake near another boat?
This is timely, particularly the bit about cold-water shock. Here in northern Maine, we're having our first really warm weekend (air temps in the low 80s Fahrenheit today), with sunny skies and a holiday tomorrow, all of which is sure to tempt a lot of people out onto the many lakes hereabouts--but this early in the year, the water temperature in those lakes is still down in the 50s. The same is presumably true of a lot of places in the middle north latitudes this time of year.
As a Norwegian, I can only dream of swimming in 20 degree celsius waters, though. It has happened on some rare occasions, but mostly it has been between 14 and 18 or thereabouts. Many want to slowly wade into the ocean water, and get used to it that way. I prefer plunging into it, completely soaking myself in it because wading goes fine until you come to the...uhm croach area. It stings in the beginning, but you'll get used to it quickly enough.
Point is, it's unthinkable for me to get a cold shock from 20/68 degree waters. Those were weird official statements.
Yes, this is timely, and hello to you in Maine! My iphone weather app actually had an alert today (never seen that before) warning of the dangers of hypothermia. Here in Mass, I was going to go surfing this weekend if the waves were any good, but even with air temps of 85F, a wetsuit of 3/2 is still needed. Last year on the first hot day in May, I thought I’d swim along the beach in only a swimsuit, then quickly realized why no one else was in the water. Since I did Lifeguard Training recert and a (not-so) polar plunge near-Dec on the Cape in a swimsuit, I oughta know that it’s not just the water temp, but the extreme difference with the air that causes shock. NE waters reach their warmest point in July/Aug, no wetsuit required for surfers, then stay mostly temperate through early fall, but spring can be bracing cold, especially to those unprepared for it.
@@BiggusD77 It's unthinkable to me that anyone would think jumping into the water and being thrown into the water are the same thing.
We've had, over here in the UK a string of people getting into trouble going for a swim in rivers, for the past few days it seems like they are recovering at least one body a day from rivers here due to it being nice and warm and that goes double for going to a beach and then into the water. I'm hopeful my friends who are rescue boat crew members are doing okay with all the influx of people who think the water is harmless
I live in Montana and that’s a very real problem here. Even in late summer most lakes and rivers are _maybe_ 50 F on a really hot day (98-105 F). But that’s only in July and early August. The rest of the time the water is near freezing.
A lot of tourists wildly underestimate this and experience hypothermia within minutes and have to be rescued. Just because it’s a hot day doesn’t mean a glacial runoff lake is going to be warm.
Our schools used to do class outings on Lake George on the Ethan Allen. Just the year before my class had been warned not to rush to one side or the other because the boat could tip otherwise
Hmm bit late now but the NTSB would actually probably have liked to hear about that anecdote. Because that can prove they knew about it and lead to criminal charges vs. it being an honest mistake or just incompetence. But the suits are over and I think there were criminal charges. Still can't hurt to drop them an email. They'll call if they care.
I think the deck is too high on those boats, the seats should be lower in the hull. There's nothing below the water but the drivetrain, and whatever lil 4banger diesel ain't outweighing even four people up top.
Remember the day this happened. I could see the scene of the sinking from the deck of my house. Happened just north of Hearthstone, near Cramer Point. Never seen so many first responders in one place.
Do you still stay at the same house?
Looking forward to this. I live about 45 minutes away from Lake George, and this hit the community very hard.
I live nearby as well and you are correct. the entire area was very upset by this disaster.
I have a question from Canada. Is "de" in de Champlain really pronounced "day" there?
Man, my mom goes on these types of senior sightseeing tours. The thought of the chaos and terror aboard breaks my heart.
As always, a clear, no-nonsense explanation. Editorialising only after establishing of fact. This is prime content that can be relied on. Thanks, Sam.
I was on either this boat or the de Champlain for Floating Class Room a couple of weeks before this happened. I distinctly remember joking with my friends about how shallow the docks were and how unstable the boats looked. We all decided that they must have weighted keels to keep them upright, since the school wouldn't take us on unsafe boats, they did not. We were in 8th grade.
Also Lake George has a fair number of assholes who will intentionally create large wakes next to other vessels, the shore, and/or docks. And at the time you didn't need a license to operate a private boat in NY.
Regarding what you said about some boaters intentionally creating wakes... There are far too many people in this world who do things like that because they think it's fun/funny, not realizing they could potentially contribute to a horrible accident. I see people doing stupid crap every day while driving and I can't help but think one day they're going to hurt themselves and/or someone else. If I'm truly honest, with how wreckless they are, I care more about the potential innocent victim(s) heading home from a long day of work than the assholes.
@@ijustneedmyself I've seen this too, on lakes and in Long Island Sound. It's not just Lake George. I've seen people cut in front of semis on the highway with less than a car length between and menace motorcycles. And it does seem like the idiots walk away while innocents take the brunt of it. Stay safe out there!
@@angelachouinard4581 As somebody who's driven commercial vehicles, that doesn't bother me. They're already going faster, as long as they keep going faster, it's not a problem.
I never thought that something so close to home would be covered on this channel
Same I'm a Rhode islander
I'm shocked and amazed that no stability reassessment was carried out after that canopy was added- irrespective of any mandatory requirement- when mere common sense dictates that increasing the height and weight of anything that floats is a game changer. RIP Viola, who never got to celebrate her 90th, and her nineteen elderly companions who were robbed of a peaceful death on terra firma.
All those years,having a peaceful life. You have more wisdom then your entire family. only to die by drowning. and you can’t even try swimming to the surface,as you are physically incapable of doing so. RIP to all onboard lost.
It didn't occurr to me until the slide at the end that nearly all the victims were elderly people. They never stood a chance with such a quickly unfolding disaster.
i dove a few times with one of the two recovery divers from this incident. he told us about some of the things that happened. it was dark. i feel bad that this happened. it is ptsd inducing stuff. i am happy that continuing diving has helped him
Share 😭 I'm morbidly curious
@@ziziflor9019 I’m sorry,but sometimes people need to keep their secrets.
If ppl need to keep their secrets. They shouldn’t announce them uninvited.
im a local of lake George. i admire the respect you had for the people lost, and how thoroughly detailed you were in the explanation
Y’all make my day each and every time you post! This is the least I can do. Thanks a lot!
Interesting that the NY state investigation found that the canopy modifications *increased* stability as well as their contradictions to the NTSB investigators...
Look how high the passenger deck is! It is up at the top of the freeboard. Any normal 40 foot boat would have the passengers sitting 3 to 4 feet lower greatly increasing the stability.
Really excited to see the legal side of these incidents covered. So few of us really understand who has what responsibility let alone authority with so many parties and agencies involved in even a small incident. Looking forward to that.
As an Indonesian, living in an archipelago country with too much water between our big and small islands, there's too much news about ship sinking due to overcrowded boats. But unlike USA, there's not many regulations for smaller private transport boats.
There's very few here in the US when it comes to Lake and river boats. We have too many preventable accidents too. There are flaws with the ocean vessel regulations too, but at least there are some!
As someone who used to do statistical analysis in the aerospace industry I find it very difficult to believe that this company managed 14,000 tours of the lake without this issue presenting itself. The passengers would have surely said something about it even if management didn't.
Great point, didn't even think of that. But yeah if the investigators had the sister boat listing with just 3 filled barrels then I can't imagine how this was not a consistent issue thru out the boats lifetime.
Another great video. I really enjoyed the segment at the end where you mentioned that we should question processes that are "just done that way". I will try to keep that in the back of my mind at the workplace more often.
Recognized this tragedy straight away. I’m about an hour from Lake George. Some of the coldest water I’ve ever been in, frigid even in August.
They said the water temp was 68f, which struck me as downright balmy for the location and time of year.
@@Milkmans_Son Seems warmer than I remember it, but I don’t doubt the reports. 68 is still pretty cold!
I always make a habit of stopping what I'm doing and listening to flight attendants when they do the pre-flight safety briefing. If you look around when they are doing the briefing, you'll notice everybody is on their phone or has headphones in.
As someone who has a fair bit of experience with jet skis, recreational
boats and kayaks on wake-filled lake waters, this is quite scary seeing what a little wake can do. I’ve had a jetski engine get severely crippled to the point where I had to idle back home and we had a small leak near the engine compartment on our recreational boat, but luckily nothing even close to this.
I would think that the uneven distribution of passengers (3 port, 2 starboard) contributed to the list and subsequent rollover but that doesn't appear to be mentioned in the reports. 🤷♂
This channel and your voice keeps me coming back. Please keep posting more videos like this.
Also, seems like canopies are a recurring theme for these disasters. Passenger comfort over safety is not alright.
When I was a kid in the 90s and into boats and ships, my parents had business in the Adirondacks, and we'd often drive past the Lake George area. I remember getting my hands on a Shoreline Cruises brochure that advertised excursions on the de Champlain and Ethan Allen, and being surprised that they were putting such marketing push into vessels that were so small. Little did I know what would happen years later...
The average weight of Americans has gone up drastically since the 1960s. It’s a problem in a lot of things that relies on those assumptions for loads.
The regulation has been updated at a minimum of 5 years ago (though I believe it was at least 10) to assume an average weight of 185 lbs
@@hilowhill Huh,
so when will services start giving discounts for 'under median weight' - or give me a package deal for 3 people that only weight as much as 2 people?
Yeah. Even if we didn’t exercise, we still had to get up to turn the channel.
One would assume a built in factor rating to be 125% of actual capacity.
Similar to the 80% continuous capacity applied to a typical 20 Amp circuit in a home ,which is 16 amps .also wire sizing has a built in 125% , 12 ga wire for a 20 Amp circuit is actually rated for 25 amps up to 100 feet
I worked at a printing press where "that's the way we've always done it" when I wanted the power locked out and tagged out before I crawled into the folding and cutting machine for cleaning. They also didn't have fall arresting gear when on the top catwalk (3stories up with a 3 ft gard rail). Left that place after 3 months and 2 automatic starts while cleaning the equipment.
Maybe tip OSHA off.
Always a bad sign when you have to shift some passengers to one side of the boat just in case.
As someone who has been involved in the Australian maritime scene both as a Master III skipper and a vessel owner, I am stunned at this mess. 63 kilos? Seriously? That is nowhere near enough per person and hasn't been for decades, if ever. And how the hell is it permissible for a surveyed vessel to have changes to her stability diagram made without a navel architect being involved as well as stability tests after the fact? The lack of regulation in the US never ceases to amaze me.
PS: Thank you for listing the names of the dead, it's important.
So 48 people got on a 40ft boat? Come on now!
Comparing length to capacity and stupid… a huge amount of ships carry more people then their length and are totally fine.
I learned about this incident when I was younger. I am from Wisconsin, and in July 2018 my family and I took a vacation to Vermont. We drove past Lake George, NY and I knew it was where the Ethan Allen accident happened. A couple days later while in Vermont, I woke up to the news station with a report of the duck boat sinking on Table Rock Lake.
I grew up in Lake George and was in 5th grade when this happened. In 6th there was a school trip on the Ethan Allen that was subsequently cancelled after this but this event really rocked the community. I also worked on the Minne Ha Ha in my teens and it was always on the back of my mind.
As someone who also teaches safety and works for a company that teaches safety, I CANNOT thank you enough for your words at the end re: the way humans think about safety and jobs. We run into this all the time and it's super frustrating.
The vessel that sank on Lake Maggiore in Italy a few days ago was also overcrowded. I can’t remember how many folk perished but it seems nuts that folk are willing to risk their lives just to squeeze more butts into a boat.
I went into this not knowing what happened, and guessed when you got to the part about how they added a wooden canopy. I'm honestly stunned that after adding all that weight that they never considered it might effect the passenger capacity or stability.
I just found your channel and I'm totally hooked! I'm so impressed by how thoughtful, thorough, and respectful your coverage is, while at the same time remaining thoroughly engaging!! Great work!!
This was one of the most professional and well thought of media on disaster subjects i have ever seen. thank you for sharing this. what a great final thoughts opinion at the end!
In Connecticut, _Thames_ is pronounced as it is spelt. Now i am going to continue watching what is sure to be another well-researched video about something from which i hope we learned valuable safety lessons.
Would absolutely love for you to use your forensic analytical abilities and method to cover some of the more notorious aviation accidents in history! You do such a fabulous job of bringing these events to life!
Great episode! Love the safety message. "But that's the way we've always do it!"
Man there is an accident in my county you should do a video on, well two really. The first is a dive boat accident that happened in the Florida Keys in 2011 and the couple who owned the boat fled the country, the other happened in June of last year and involved a parasailing company in Key West. Both I think could make very good videos talking about the bad side of the tourist industry in the Florida Keys that needs to be seen by more people
The joke where I grew up has always been "Florida is where you go to die", but I didn't think it was that literal.
Reminds me of the former Washington State Ferries passenger ferry MV Skagit that capsized and sank while overloaded (290 passengers, 40 above the maximum capacity of 250) off Zanzibar.
As always, Sam, you've done an amazing job. Your partnership with Attorney Tom is going to be a huge learning experience for me and I'm looking forward to it.
I never thought I would be binge watching long RUclips videos but here I am. This is some of the most interesting content I’ve ever seen. The delivery and production is top notch!
Can't wait for the OceanGate video now.
When does a Boat become a ship? When the righting moment takes her outboard of the turn rather than into it like a motorcycle in a racing turn.
I believe so.
Just baffling how irresponsible these owners/operators are! I can’t imagine getting on a boat and noticing there is no escape. 😳
Very well done. Reminds me of the duck boats that have had problems in recent years. I rode in one and the lack of freeboard when in the water was disturbing. Thanks for a well prepared video!
He has done videos on those incidents as well.
I'm glad Attorney Tom is stepping in. With all of these accidents; somebody has to be held responsible when people die from things that could have been easily prevented.
Not that it would have prevented this accident, but it seems that the AAWPP (Assumed Average Weight Per Person) established by the US Coast Guard in 2011 for passenger carrying vessels is 185 pounds. A bit of a change from 140 pounds per "average" passenger.
Had to come back and watch again so I could actually pay attention this time 😉 You’re so great at what you do and definitely hold the secret ingredients for such great productions time and again.
I subbed bro. Your description of each tragedy is not only informative and strictly educational, it’s very well researched. I like how you get straight to business as well. Keep at it man. Here’s to the Road to 1,000,000 subs
I live 30 minutes away from Lake George and never heard of this. Thanks for giving some additional knowledge of my area!
Great work Brick Immortar, love your in-depth research.
As so as you said they add hard top, I new that the boat was in trouble, weight, possible the windows fall down and trap passengers, the fact it was so low to the water, the ability to escape, it just does not end.
God I fucking love these videos. The editing. The voiceover. The straight factual delivery. 🙏
What a whirlwind. My brain went “I love Lake George! Just an hour away, weird tourist attractions, fun skating and-“ Then I suddenly flashed back to being 14 and remember this. Sad thing is the only reason I learned of it then is that Six Flags is next to it.
Thank you for teaching me more about an event I knew about but totally forgot about.
This is my favorite channel on YT. The production has such a cool feel and the stories are always well researched, interesting, and informative. Tops!
Excellent presentation… as always. And exceptional message… Thank you
as an attorney i'm fascinated for attorney tom's part two! thanks as always for the excellent content sam!
I'd say for the use of the photo in the listing to sell the boat, it's less "out of touch" and more "Here's a readily available photo that shows the boat out of water to give a clearer picture of what's being sold." The person tasked with selling the thing might not even have access to the object itself and has to make due with whatever can be found, or alternately, if the boat is in the water now, it's not going to make sense to haul it out just to take a photo. It's not like they used a photo of it floating upside down in the water or with any of those who passed as result of being on it...
Might even be one of those rare heart-felt truth-in-advertising moments saying, "This boat has a history you should look into before buying."
@@susanavenir Usually the murder house is cheaper not more expensive. 40 grand us way overpriced it's worth 5-10 MAX. So it is being sold for more than they would sell onr that had a normal history.
May the people rest in peace and thank you for your interesting videos, I especially enjoy the videos of the larger cargo ships! Learning from disasters is the best way to prevent them
Fantastic presentation as usual
Thank you for another excellent maritime piece. I love your thorough deep dives into the safety and compliance matters (good grief pun completely unintended) - I worked in both in an R&D setting for many years, and still working in administrative compliance).
Just such a good channel I can't believe the quality of the content you make always just leaves me thinking about the situations I put me my friends and coworkers in. Has me thinking more often why am I doing this and is it safe for me and others love it
I got so excited when I heard Attorney Tom is gonna work with you on videos. I love his USCSB videos and obviously I love your videos. This is gonna be awesome!
Just when you think your channel couldn't get any better, it does. Thank you!!! I check everyday for a new video.
Thank you for a great video. I love your format. I always happy when I see a new video from you. Very interesting and informative. ❤
WOOOOOOOOOOT subscriber here and excited to finally catch a live one with BI - thanks my MAN. Your in-depth analysis is much appreciated!
Wow. This was the most powerful video you've put out thus far in my opinion. The segment about driving and your collaboration with Attorney Tom were both excellent as well.
I've got a feeling about what one of the next videos could be about ...
I lived nearby in Adirondack and remember this event growing up. We visited Lake George all the time and after this happened there was this eeriness to it for a while. It was a sadly tramatic thing to happen to the area. Rest their souls...
I’m from upstate NY so this one really hits home. A horrific loss of life. May they rest in peace.
Just looking at that boat..it's hard to believe it carries over 40 people!?😮
As sad as these events are, I couldn’t be happier to see these two content creators work together. I have enjoyed watching both for a while, and both have your safety at the forefront of everything, which is everything.
Your videos are so unique and interesting, especially the ones with ships involved. Please make more.
I just want to say, you have the most interesting & informative channel on my line up. I hope you will consider doing an episode on the "Titan" submersible tragedy. So many red flags & warnings seem to have been ignored & now 5 people lost their lives. Thank you for all your outstanding content & explanations.💙
I well remember this shocking accident which occurred about an hour away from where I live. At the time there was little mention of Stability control and allowable weight limits. That so many of the passengers were elderly and infirm and overweight seemed never have been considered though there was considerable attention to lack of state ability in setting inspection/certification standards. Clearly it was impossible for many to evacuate rapidly.
We remember when this happened as we're fairly close to the area. We've been on a few of the Lake George tours run by that company post-tragedy. The first year we did a lake tour on the Horicon. That year (2010) the top deck behind the pilot house was open for passengers. The next season it was closed off. Haven't been on the lake for maybe a half dozen years.
As a footnote to the tragedy, a family member of the tour boat operator topped himself in Lake George in 2009.
I live near the lake. Interesting story and thanks for creating. Also thanks to some of the incredible comments I’m reading and learning from. Great job BI! 🎉
Thank you Sam, and Tom.
It's amazing that after this massive mod the vessel was not resertified. Especially changing the center of gravity so much, very sad. Small planes have crash due to simply adding a grab handle in the wrong spot.
Your channel is so good. Thanks for putting in the work Brick.