Cynicism Is The Left's Greatest Enemy | Ash Sarkar Meets Billy Bragg | Downstream
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- Опубликовано: 17 дек 2022
- Throughout his 30-year career, Billy Bragg has never shied away from politics. From playing benefit gigs for miners in the 1980s to clashing with the BNP in his hometown of Barking, he has always used his influence to help those who need it.
Ash recently sat down with Billy to discuss his 2006 book, The Progressive Patriot, and whether the left should reclaim patriotism from the right.
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I remember as a young kid in a tent in Glastonbury festival there was a piano and I was playing it and billy Bragg came up and told me I was good lol
I'm watching intently here in the states. As a longtime union member, the resurgence of union activism gives me heart. Working people are fed up with crumbs from the jet setters.
... they are
deckchair gamblers
who heed only
those in play
@@huwpatt3817 How immensely profound Huw bach - whatever it means???
We are the underground stream brother, it’s real never think that it’s over & done. Things are remaking themselves everywhere.
Also, a new generation gen z is coming into its own and doesn't want to allow corporate greed or right-wing misinformation to dictate voting choices.
Well said, comrade.
I love this interview it's so friendly human caring and genuine
A wonderful combination of these two lovely people.
Great interview. I've always been a fan of Billy. He talks about progressive patriotism. I saw a tangible example of Billy's patriotism at this year's Cambridge Folk Festival. He was on stage as England Women's Football team became European Champions. He was very emotional and got the whole crowd to sing 'Jeusalem' A memorable moment. He grew up in Barking. I was born in Barking. He's a West Ham United fan, so am I . He spoke of Ford's Dagenham factory. My dad worked there for a time so did some of our neighbours. Our first home as a married couple was in nearby Dagenham. Long live Billy Bragg the Bard of Barking.
I was at the Cam folk fest gig this year, too! It was really powerful.
Shame he doesn't get Cancel Culture though
@@robbiespence6504I wonder if he lives in Barking now ?
As a Scottish fan of civic nationalism, I love this chat. I WANT to see England celebrating and taking back control over their identity. Progressive Patriot is a perfect description.
Great interview - a true reminder of the importance of caring for each other and working towards a fairer more inclusive world.
Country*
I always find the 'inclusive' aspiration a bit puzzling when referring to aspects or makeup of a Country.
Inclusive to who? and In what way is Britain not inclusive? What barriers are there to inclusion? If you're referring to race, even the bloody Tories have a brown PM. There's no higher bar than PM, so what on Earth are we talking about here?
I find it ironic that most flag-shaggers tend to fascism rather than patriotism. A true patriot wants to improve society and make the country work for everyone, or at least for the majority. Check out the patriotic millionaires, who believe they should contribute more in taxation. As Chomsky explained, change is rarely gifted from above; it comes through struggle from below. Kudos to Novara. Please keep up your good work.
"Flag-shagger" - great phrase!
💯
Wait a minute, how can you say that change comes through struggle from below while praising "patriotic millionaires" for gifting change from above? This is an obvious contradiction that would be obvious to anyone who isn't just masturbating into the void where socialism should be.
@@rodneyhull9764 I simply follow reports, some from right wing channels. The strange logic that anyone seeking change and improvement is unpatriotic. Britain is broken.
@@davidmcculloch8490 & owned but not by us they stole the lot.......
Billy Bragg.....what a legend. He is brilliant, so well balanced and considered. Well done Ash and Novara media for this great work.
Given Billy Bragg is a well-known misogynist, it would be interesting to see him being interviewed about his opposition to women's rights. Hopefully Novara Media can organise this some time.
Really? Please give an example?
Real Left should come together to deliver positives in working class communities, let people know what we are about . Bit like Black Panthers did for poor communities in US.
They would declare us terrorists if enough of us did it....if jesus came back now they'd slam him in guantanamo bay.
yeah and luckily thats almost as simple to organise as it is to make a RUclips comment asking for it
@@safebans1369 Black panthers did it nationwide under harder circumstances than our own, we can do it comrade
It's unfortunate but look how they turned up.
Join a Marxist revolutionary party like Socialist appeal instead.
@@Adamb87 that is the nightmare that keeps the wealthy paracites oligarchy awake at night
That working people stop buying into the whole hierarchy of race, gender and sexual preference
Just be a working person first and leave it at that
Once that is the normal experience of being the parasite establishment is over
I too was given the same job prospects in my careers advice at secondary school-Army, Navy, RAF, or Tesco. The ruling classes really do see you as fodder. I bet at the private schools it would be a totally different careers advice. My friend from public boarding school, told me, that their teachers/tutors constantly informed them, you are the future leaders, you will be running this country. So it reveals the psychology behind the system we live under
this comment made me think how those in private schools will *never* be advised to work at a supermarket.
Its like, simply attending one of those schools makes it an impossibility.
@@ince55ant its almost like socialized services always lead you to ruin. Who knew
Super di duper, enjoyed chilling and listening in to this chat. So nice to be able to nod along in agreement pretty much most of the time and feel pleasantly in tune with two solid, funny warm and sane conversationalists. Thanks Novara.
Excellent, so many great interviews recently; in addition to the regular content! Great Work Ash & Novara!
Billy Bragg's comments made me well up a couple times tbh, legend, this has to be the way forward :) x
Billy looks like Corbyn's brother , I have Billy on vinyl from early 80s ,I must listen to his later stuff. great conversation between 2 engaging people.
What an amazing interview. Thank you Novara for introducing me to this living legend. Billy, I’ve discovered your music and your career through this interview. You are a phenomenal musician and perhaps even better progressive patriot. Thank you.
Lenin urged the German social democrats to oppose the war and fight the class enemy at home, but the German social democrats voted for war credits and the British socialists enthusiastically backed the war. Both were following a patriotic socialist model instead of international solidarity and class struggle across national borders.
BOOM!!!
Because the German social democrats feared invasion by reactionary Russia and so did the majority of workers (who weren’t Leninists)
Class struggle in the Marxist sense was never a strong theme in the policy of the Labour Party
@@marklanahan7289 Is that a bad thing?
@@marklanahan7289 Unfortunately youtube doesn't have a slow clap emoji or gif, that I can find, as it's funny (as in not at all) how r/e always bring up the CSE in the places that you mention as if it's meant to be the mofo of anti-left "gotchas", when the atrocious events that took place had nothing to do with the left.
That aside, it has been my unhappy experience that those who drop the events of Rotherham, Rochdale, etc into the conversation care more about the weaponization of CSE, as opposed to any particular care for the survivors themselves. Indeed the former seem to be completely indifferent to the various white CSE gangs the police have smashed, or the high profile ones such as Epstein and Nonce Andrew.
Still on the weaponisation of CSE by the right, they also have little to nothing to say about white men on the rougher council estates on the fringes of criminal activities who often have several "girl friends", who range from underage to barely legal
Great interview with Billy Bragg. Says it as it is. I take heart from what he says. Please Novara Media. More interviews like this.
Could listen to Billy forever. A just man, moral paragon and intuitively right and instructive on so many things.
Really loved this video. Maybe it’s Billy’s East London accent, maybe it’s the mixture of music and politics. Ash is such a vibrant interviewer too
She’s racist. She deems all working class Londoners who move out of London for more space as racist. But never dares to explore if middle class Londoners are racist as they are her audience.
A wonderful conversation really enjoyed this one .as I do listening to all the contributing members .although the channel is left wing I find it probably the only channel that gives an honest report on current affairs.well done ash n Billy , lovely
Hello Dave , Although the Channel is left wing ? The presenter’s and the Majority of their guests shy away from supporting the members of society with access to more money than they could ever spend, whereas they fail to hide their support for the have nothing’s in society , As for a level of bias , we’ll only get to see that if the country ever has a Labour Government in power ?
@@colinstephenson5386 although was the wrong word .my articulation let me down.the point I was trying to make was however left wing the channel is it's still far more fair than the mainstream media we are subjected too
This is one of the most brilliant interviews I have ever seen. Hats off. Two brilliant people, asking fascinating questions and original takes!
Great interview. This is a topic that lefties and liberals cannot ignore. Bragg's approach may or may not be the right way to go about dealing with questions of country, identity, place & people but i applaud the fact that he's actively engaged with those questions and is not willing to cede the grounds of discourse to the right.
Great debate, Billy comes across as really warm, thoughtful and thought-provoking!
This conversation should be required viewing in the UK.
I agree. It undermines the narrative of people like ash who think white working class people move to London to avoid brown people. It really isn’t the case. Weird she doesn’t apply to same obsession to surrey
Excellent interview with Ash and Billy..
Ironic that BB says Starmer is never gonna be able to outflank the right...and then in next breath proposes a policy to try to out flank the right, that would get Blue Labour nodding with approval
The cheapest sort of pride is national pride; for if a man is proud of his own nation, it argues that he has no qualities of his own of which he can be proud; otherwise he would not have recourse to those which he shares with so many millions of his fellowmen. The man who is endowed with important personal qualities will be only too ready to see clearly in what respects his own nation falls short since their failings will be constantly before his eyes. But every miserable fool who has nothing at all of which he can be proud adopts, as a last resource, pride in the nation to which he belongs; he is ready and glad to defend all its faults and follies tooth and nail, thus reimbursing himself for his own inferiority.
Arthur Schopenhauer
I'm going to use this later. Wish me luck!
patriotism is not about flags or even fellow citizens. It is about responsibility to ensure that the legally designated resources under the sovereign control of the elected government are distributed fairly for the benefit of the constituents.
You're describing communism
^ “Everything I don’t like is communism. My life is 99% watching reactionary RUclips. Send help.”
working class doesn't automatically mean fascist. A lot of people i worked with over the years were socialist. Billy does give voice to that part of the population.
The full saying is "My country right or wrong, if right, kept right, if wrong, made right". So the idea that you can love your country but see room for improvement has been around for a long while...
I never knew that, thank you
How true about the power of music. For myself, now in my mid seventies, it was the sixties blues boom that took me away from the typically white English views that I had been brought up with through the forties and fifties. I suppose it really started with the rise of trad jazz through skiffle, folk and rock n' roll. When you look at the history of where modern music comes from you see the connections and colour becomes somehow insignificant as far as the music goes but while still recognising the friction from which much of the blues comes from. Just why this music resonated with a white kid from a small Lancashire market town I've no idea, but it did and I'm thankful for it.
What about internationalism. Inequalities and problems are world wide not nation wide
Ever hear the saying "Revolution begins at the kitchen sink?" You won't even be able to begin promoting socialism at the international level unless you reach consensus at the national level. Part of that is reinventing patriotism as a positive unifying force instead of a toxic exclusionary one.
Those who are encouraged to reach far beyond their grasp instead of working within it (dwelling on internationalism at the expense of nearby problems) seem to be self-defeating, and no doubt mainstream media encourages them to be so.
The workers in Qatar were treated appallingly.
Billy Bragg looking very like Jeremy Corbin
It's not just me 😁
He is good friends with JC.
He juggles JC's shriveled ballsack on his tongue
Who is the greater patriot? The one who insists that everything is perfect and must remain just so, sings the anthem, attends the right functions and knows the right people? Or is it the one who sees the wood in the trees, and knows where best to use that wood to heat the frozen, home the homeless, shore up the broken and rebuild the ruins?
We need a patriotism which is OUR kind of patriotism, one where kids don't go to school hungry and old folk don't freeze to death in their homes. And are we really the cynical ones? The cynicism behind the Right's manipulation of the British electorate to "get Brexit done" was jaw-dropping.
Great interview thanks for uploading it!
I really liked this, Ash, it was stimulating, full of values and you got another follower lol xxx. I wonder what Billy would have to say about Elgar...
Are you going to add captions for deaf and hard of hearing? Love Novara Media.
They likely do so once they reupload after editing. It’s a problem that D&HOH people can’t watch the livestream though
@@antoniaf1886 yeah, I actually advocate for fair wages for professionals who do this type of services. I understand the complexity and have admired NM transparency around this.
Click on more, then transcript to read what they are saying. 😀
Thank you both,I really enjoyed that discussion.
Brilliant, absolutely, brilliant, just says it all. Thanks for the truth👍
Come,Come!!
Being Cynical is so British!😂😂
@Julie Levinge your witty comment really made me laugh multiple times,thanks for making me laugh Julie,
Have a great Christmas and New Year comrade
You don't want nationalism though, because nationalism is just way too close to fascism. In fact, you don't want idealism of any kind. Practical & flexible people with a heart for serving the community is what you really need in government.
Great interview! I'm a couple of years younger than Billy so the comment about us grey haired former radicals especially hit home!
Billy Bragg is so right. He speaks truth which we all see but are not supposed to speak. One problem is that there are many human qualities which belong to all of us, which the political right has commandeered for itself and misused. Qualities such as enterprise. The cynical aspect of the political left can then dismiss these qualities themselves, throwing out the baby with the bathwater, instead of reclaiming them for our own use and empowerment.
Great discussion. Love the focus on the ongoing focus we all have to observe, generation to generation, to protect the values we have for a fair society that welcomes and benefits all.
I fully acknowledge that males are more likely to commit violence and most especially serious instances of violence and sexual violence. But I honestly believe that the solution is to degender the issue and address violence from a child development perspective. Addressing violence in the home and in schools and our communities I believe will have the biggest net gain. Children learn violence at home, and that's parents, not just Father's. Educating parents out of passing on generational trauma is the best solution in my view.
Left Patriotism for me is about The People, and the Land. I want those who live and work here to thrive, and be healthy and happy. To want the best for your countrymen and women, and for those who chose to settle here and contribute is extremely patriotic in my view. And to respect the landmass itself, meaning the environment must support life, and be beautiful where possible.
Other ideas, and the culture itself has always been, and will always be in flux, so abstract ideas about Nation aren't really relevant to achieving the objectives of health and happiness; Quite often they seem to be obstacles. The indignity of living under four decades of Conservatism is as far from real patriotism as can be. I'm not proud of that, but I'm proud of our ability to endure, and have faith we are rising to the occasion. We've always been greater than plastic union flag waving.
Agree 👍
That's a fairly good basis for redefining patriotism. Quality of life and harmony in society and nature are things to be proud of.
None of the things he wants to be proud of require patriotism or benefit from being tethered to an imaginary “space we call England”.
It’s utterly incoherent to define the country as simply the ‘geographical space called England and everything that happens in that space’, and then treat it as a discrete agent that can ‘do something positive’ or ‘do something negative’ that we can choose to be proud or ashamed of according to the “values the country is supposed to have”.
You can’t have it both ways - just like you can’t argue for an inclusive definition of English identity while insisting that the execution of Charles I or an agreement between King and Barons signed in 1215 is “who we are".
You are not ‘taking territory’ away from the right with this stuff, you are ceding it to them! Accepting one of their most effective reactionary innovations as a positive and necessary component of identity.
It’s one thing to love the people, language, landscape and culture we grew up with, but as Ursula Le Guinn asked, “what is the sense of giving a boundary to all that, of giving a name and ceasing to love where the name ceases to apply?”
Ya, he's incoherent.
Goddamn; I bloody love that man and what he has to say about everything and everything he stands for.
Thanks 👍
Great video and I very much respect Billy Bragg, but I would have to caution from history, that in Britain if you mix the left with British nationalism you often end up with fascism.
Whether it is Oswald Moseley under British nationalism, in the 1930s moving from the left-wing Labour Party to the British Union of Fascists (BUF), right through to Anne Marie Waters also moving under British nationalism from the Labour Party in 2010, to the more right-wing UKIP in 2014, and ending up in the extreme-right For Britain in 2017, British nationalism has always pulled things towards the far-right.
From history, ever since the time of the British Empire, British nationalism has always had problems with racism and neo-colonialism inseparably as part of its DNA. Historically the left has always been internationalist rather than nationalist, and its slogan has always been “workers of THE WORLD unite” NOT “only for British workers”, which is where British nationalism leads. For the left to be playing around with British nationalism as a means of appealing to the populist side of the electorate, is extremely dangerous both for the genuine left, and also minority groups in Britain.
Couldn't agree more.. National *Socialism* anyone? Billy has said a fair few dubious things over the years. He's not all rainbows and unicorns to say the least. Unfortunately most on here are young and naive and historically illiterate. The complex nature of nationalism, patriotism and their relationship to fascism, socialism and communism in a variety of countries isn't understood by many today. Nor how easily they take a very nasty turn for the worse while spouting slogans about the justice they are delivering with one hand while taking it away with the other. Funny how history ends up repeating itself.. just occasionally with different protagonists. Never mind. Sigh....
Thanks for this interview.
we don't need politics or politicians at all, we just need a group of ordinary sane individuals to quietly get on and organise the country so everything works propertly and we can get on with our lives
I love Billy. Listening to him as a teenager and going to see him live was what inspired me to become a union rep. However I have a lot less time for Ash Sankar, mainly because of the way her and others previously snubbed Eddie Dempsey from the RMT.
Oh dear, not good Eddie Dempsey is amazing!
i agree it was a mistake but I won't hold a grudge or cancel her for it
A beautiful interview between two beautiful minds.
Great Debate
Really fantastic interview.
Go Billy Bragg.
A great interview. Thanks to everyone involved.
What does that mean ?!!!
@Christine Cassidy what are you on about? Are more you a right wing troll?
Thanks that was really fascinating and positive.
Great interview.
Spot on, thank you
Re the description: It's considerably longer than a 30-year career! I saw him on the pyramid stage at Glastonbury 38 years ago, and he was already pretty established then.
Aww I've yet to hear him sing Power in a union!! Love this fella
Down with the monarchy
I don't know FB, but a sexy new anarchist queen might be just what your Island needs . I thought that was the anarcho-pagan ideal?
Hooray for the constitutional monarchy The best form of government is a constitutional monarch and a Labour Prime Minister like Old Clem and George VI
Somebody beeds to tell Starmer the union flag waving may look good in the Red Wall but he us going to live Scotland with it.
Good interview
More of this please - NM - top bloke Billy !
He looks like Jeremy Corbyn 😜 That's not an insult by the way 👍
The highest of compliments, surely!
What a chilled dude 😀
Fuckin hell, this was a great interview. My goal is to be like Billy Bragg when I'm his age. How can we all continue to grow and learn as we get older?
If it’s got a Jack put it back!
I'm loving this discussion.
I get where he's coming from, only given our global crisis and fragmentary world, this is just giving into tribalism at a time when we need to build common global connections to tackle global capitalism and climate change
Many on the Right will say that Ash, whose family comes from Bengal (India/Bangladesh, “the jewel of the British empire”) cannot call herself English/British. Yet those same people have no issue accepting me as a Brit - who’s family is mainly from Poland, Italy and Ireland. That double standard exists purely because I’m white and she’s a POC. Historically she has much more of a right to term the English/British!
Yeah that's true thank you for your thoughts love👍 my great grandfather came to this country even before 1947 on the order of the british raj !!!!...he came as a subject of the British empire to work here than my grandpa came straight after the second World War ..my muslim bengali great uncle served and died for this country ..I have the same heritage as Ash despite being born in this country people still love to question where am I really from..I have decided that I am who I am..I am British I don't have to wait around for other white british peoples acceptance of me ..I am English and English is me..I used to do that when I was younger feeling this was not my home but I will never allow anyone to make me feel like I don't belong in My own place of my birth my own country..
I find that when abroad, English people of all backgrounds ‘find’ each other and bond through that intangible thread that runs through us all and unites us!
Everybody (well, nearly everybody) does that! It is the ones who have not travelled who worry about people not integrating, focusing their hate on them purely because people feel comfort in being with those of their own culture, where understanding each other comes easy.
Left wing patriot here - want my country to be out from under English rule
Ash is right about what England is... The little man in the Wizard Of Oz... The English are learning that they are one little part of an island in the North Atlantic...
Haven't you types said that enough already? It's not an insight. It's just self-hatred and it's killing your country.
@@friendlyfire7861 I'm not from England
@@DANINREDDY Congratulations
I am inclined to disagree, not enough are learning exactly that. Brexittt!
Maybe the festival of brexit should be called the museum of England.
Thoroughly decent guy
They shall not pass ✊
Brilliant interview more of the same Novara Media .
Has Billy still got his holiday home in Dorset?
1:12:00 Billy is of my generation, give or take. You can see, even in this conversation, how strongly WW2 is still a formative part of identity. We grew up with the war films, the comics, re-enacting the Battle of Britain in our playgrounds. I don't think you can do that without it getting in to your (boomer) psyche - insular, independent, superior, belligerent.
It's ironic, as so many of our parents' (the Queen's) generation lived the reality: serving in Europe & beyond or living alongside Americans & Canadians & others flying bombers & preparing for D Day.
Buffy Ash! Now that's a catchy phase lol
Basically Bragg is promulgating a liberal position not a left wing position.
Liberal politics whether in UK or US is part and parcel of the state and status quo.
Left politics in UK and US is based on solidarity and internationalism .
25:03 "My favourite genre of music is heavy metal; bands like Saxon, Motorhead, Venom and Diamond Head" ...Brilliant! Oh wait, that was my fantasy. *shrivel
Patriotism is thinking one country is better than all the others just because you were born there.
So I'm Palestinian, I've got no real skin in this,
but I think that Ewan Maccoll's England should not be left in captivity. Englishness, currently haunted by the right, could and should be redeemed without enforced self-flagellation. All should have a place in the struggle against those who have not just destroyed our worlds, but have used us to destroy each other. It is through good organization that cultural variations and identities can be maintained while united in action with purpose.
Thank you for discussing the Trans issue, which should as you say led by Trans and non-binary people, not by a straight well known children's author!
I couldn't agree more with Billy's last 3 or so minutes, particularly how Wales, NI and Scotland seemingly have a defined history, defined identity, and a vision of where they want to be. The identity of England is missing and to sit on "the sun never set on the Great British Empire" may have worked 50, or 100 years ago. But in 2022, when we've given up those territories, we've shut ourselves off from engaging with the European Union, we're bullying our constituent countries, and we're riding on the coat tails of being a hugely influential world wide country when we don't seem to encourage anything but laughter... Well what are we in the here and now? What are we a nation of TODAY? That needs defining.
You're part of the self hate that is corroding your country.
How far do we need to go back to define “The English”? Were the Anglo-saxons English, or was it the Danes who came to Britain and stayed, or perhaps the Normans were English or perhaps it was the Tudors who were English (they were Welsh and French), or perhaps it was the Stewarts starting with James the 1st who ruled Scotland for 36 years before becoming “English”. Surely the German Hanoverians must be English I mean who is more English than Queen Victoria? And we all know the Windsors are really the House of Saxe-Coburg-Gotha. That’s just the royal family’s though. You mean the English people 😅.
@@damianeastwood Je is talking about the "Great British Empire," whatever that is.
1:07:00 Which institutions do we need to tear down and why? And what does it mean “come to terms with” the British Empire? The English language as a world language is in Billy’s own terms an institution of the British Empire. Should that be torn down? And how would one go about doing that? I’m genuinely interested in the answers to these questions so please help me to understand.
It's just post-modern twattitudes at this point.
This kind of empty insincere posturing is the Left's most self destructive trait.
@@zippymufo9765 It's only insincere posturing because these people are left-liberals.
Ash why don't you come back to Barking (Billy Bragg,'s) home town and make an updated video about it.
Ash check out 'Mae hen wlad fy nhadau', the Welsh national anthem. Its all what youre talking about and more, pride for the past the future and understanding the people and cultural heritage. A little less on the guillotine side as 'Les Marseillaise'
1:07:00 The French Empire wasn't so much cleared away as absorbed. I suppose it's a consequence of them having a proper revolution, with universal suffrage, or at least a sexist idea of it. We kept our home grown us & them, so if you were a colonial native your status was already determined as on the them scale.
If you mean being proud of a country that helps all people and not just the mega wealthy. Yeh i can get patriotic about that.
I wonder has Billy read the book “Despised, why the modern left loathes the working class” by fellow Barking and Dagenham man, and blue Labour activist, Paul Embery.
It’s odd isn’t it. White working class people moving out of London are somehow racist if they want a garden but middle class who move to surrey are super great people.
❤
10:10:25 People's History Museum, Museum of Liverpool, Beamish -The Living Museum of the North.
England is not just London
'Progressive Nationalism' as suggested by Ash, is what Scottish Nationalism is all about, which is *why* many of us insist on referring to it as 'Civic Nationalism' to avoid the comparison to Right wing 'Big N' Nationalists, that the rightwing and unionist media were fond of branding us with in the past twenty years.
The crisis of Nationalism in the UK is really the crisis of *English Nationalism* and conflation with the odd concept of 'British Nationalism.' Its the same crisis which caused 'Brexit' dragging two consituent nations out of the EU against the will of their people.
This can only be resolved in one of two ways:
The break up of the 'United' Kingdom,
or
the return of the UK to the EU.
Even in the latter scenario, I think its still fairly likely that Scotland, and possibly even Wales, will seek independence or at least a new, more equitable 'union' with England.