Für alle die Deutsch sprechen bzw. hören, am 5. September findet die Achtung Panzer Konferenz 2020 in Ingolstadt statt, mit dabei sind Dr. Roman Töppel und Ralf Raths (Direktor vom Panzermuseum Munster) für mehr Infos siehe hier: www.startnext.com/CZb
A comment on the "why were there so many Stalin (and Lenin) statues during his lifetime?" (as a Russian historian myself): There were no Lenin statues while Lenin was in power - but as you might know, after Lenin's death (and even a bit before it, since Lenin spent the last year of his life incapacitated), there was a power struggle where Stalin was not the obvious successor, at least initially. That shouldn've been Trotsky - an internationalist who didn't care much for just building up a Russian Soviet state, or any nation-state, but wanted to export the revolution worldwide. Trotsky was the communist revolution's ideologue and theorist - every bit as important as Lenin (just consider what a huge impact on the course of history he had by negotiating the treaty of Brest-Litovsk, for example). Compared to Trotsky, Stalin was kind of a nobody in the key stages of the Russian revolution. It was only through ruthless political maneuvering that he got himself close to power - and part of that was through creating a more appealing image of national greatness for Soviet people than the rather obtuse, intellectualist Trotsky who disdained it. Stalin understood that this could be done by building up an image of Lenin as "father of the nation" - all the more convenient since Lenin was dead, so Stalin could portray his words in any way he wanted. But why statues of himself? Well, that was the second part of Stalin's plan. He made his claim to leadership and succession by portraying himself a) always next to Lenin; and b) as an equal of Lenin. So, if statues of Lenin helped create the image of Soviet power and a "father of the nation" - there had to be statues of Stalin right there as well to hammer home the idea that basically, "Lenin = Stalin = Soviet greatness = communism". This is different from the German situation, and though Hitler did use Hindenburg in a way that was a bit similar - really, after 1933 Hitler had no real rivals or challengers. Stalin may have eliminated much of the opposition quickly - but he never quite fully shook off the fear of challengers, and even Trotsky managed to survive until 1940 before Stalin's assassins finally caught up to him in Mexico. In short, Stalin created the cult of personality for Lenin in his bid for power - and then had to constantly equate himself to Lenin to keep that power. Hitler, by comparison, just didn't have rivals to contend with - and the nationalist mythology he was working with was much older and came more naturally to the Germans. Like the fascists in Italy, all Hitler really needed to do was keep recycling older myths and reviving older cults. Stalin's material was limited and he had to write his own "origin story"/"creation myth" (though would over time co-opt more and more older elements, successfully equating himself to Ivan the Terrible and Peter the Great later in his rule, too - hardly communist figures). For a modern example - just take a look at North Korea and how statues are handled there. Although they are blood relatives - the Kims basically follow Stalin's playbook to ensure that "Korean national greatness = Kim Il Sung = Kim Jong Il = Kim Jong Un = Juche = communism". Without constantly hammering down this idea, they have little to stand on because as you correctly pointed out - the idea of a supreme personality or even national greatness is complete nonsense in classical communist doctrine. Only constant reinforcement through propaganda keeps it working. Therefore Stalin statues, and a lot of them - usually somewhere within sight of Lenin statues. They were, however, absolutely a deliberate strategy by Stalin and not just put up by other people. Stalin, who in earlier life was a seminary student, understood the power of religious-like iconography and knew exactly what he was doing - the cult of personality he built is a far more literal cult in concept than people often realize. The statues of himself were fully his idea.
The idea that trotsky was the succsessor is so ahistorical it should have been thrown in the garbage as soon as it was invented, yet the thanks to the trots and to the CIA it persists. It is just wrong on so many levels.
About Lenin and Stalin's statues in the Soviet Union. Statues to Lenin were mostly created after his deaths and they were continued to be built till the fall of the Soviet Union more or less. Stalin's statues became a thing since very early 1930 (so during Stalin's reign) but they stopped to make them soon after Stalin's deaths and most of them were removed from the public spaces by the end of 50s.
That is correct, but I should also mention that since Lenin was a hero of revolution and was portrayed as a martyr, who basicly sacrificed himself for the sake of communism (probably not literally, but he died just several years after the revolution, so he was a very convenient figure in that regard), so they made him a symbol of communism, and that is exactly what he represents on the statues - most Soviet cities (and even many towns) had statues of Lenin with his hand pointing, showing the path towards communism. Statues to Stalin were made during his reign as a token of loyalty and also as part of his cult of personality, wich was an important part of his system of total control. Also a popular motive - Lenin and Stalin together, where Lenin (being already mortally ill) symbolically passes his role as a leader to Stalin. Most of those statues were removed during destalinization after 1956, and actually there was no reabilitation for Stalin during Brezhnev's time, as was suggested by Bismarck. Also some statues of Stalin were made in Russia and CIS countries during modern time. Also there were quite a number of statues of Soviet marshals (especially Zhukov) made after the war, and they are part of the picture of the Great Patriotic War wich Soviet ruling elite was projecting on soviet people.
Military History not Visualized 10:50 in the movie “Enemy at the Gates” when the heroe sniper (don’t remember well his name) is received by Nikita at a propagandist conference at the apparently a Headquarters he, the heroe, is picked by Nikita and lead to a big paint of Stalin and says to him, to the heroe, something on the lines of “ You are the heroe, the spirit of this patriotic war. And you can’t fail, because he is watching you, he is watching us, he always watches.” When you said that I assumed that what they made in the movie wasn’t showing how blindly people followed Stalin but how scary he was.
For the Stalin and Lenin statues.... I went to the KGB(bar) in bratislava and they had a Lenin bistro so I took a selfie with it while wearing my cat person shirt with a tiger and panther. And then when I was in Budapest I went to the national museum and ran into a Stalin statue while wearing the same shirt. So I got a picture with 2 soviet leaders while wearing a t-shirt with german tanks and now I am hoping to take one with every major soviet leader.
There is a Rommel monument in Heidenheim from 1961, one for GdI Karl Eibl (died in Stalingrad) in Krems from 1959, GO Alexander Löhr had a plaque in a church in Vienna from 1955-2015 and in Oberschützen, Austria there is the Anschluss monument from 1938. Mostly monuments of persons are erected after the person died, because the initiators want to link themselves to the "Hero" and show continuity.
If you went into an American or British bookstore in the 80s, the war books would be high-level overviews about campaigns, equipment, units and battles. As the veterans began to pass away, authors attempted more to individualize the war away from broad brush strokes and so as observed, there have been more books on individual or unit stories. Any modern battle or campaign overview author (e.g. Ambrose, Rick Atkinson or Tom Holland) will include a lot of quotes from letters, interviews and diaries, from the senior commanders down to the soldiers, airmen, women who served non-combatant roles and even civilizans. To exclude these now would date the book and make it seem more like a wikipedia page. Based on your comments, it's doubtful there's a demand for this type of context & detail by German readers.
The statue that @@thomaswolf2896 speaks of's name translates to "The Resistance Fighter" (literally, The Withstanding-struggler). The German Resistance was larger than France's, if for no other reason that Germans had no 'Free Germany' to which to retreat. May God forbid this ever coming to pass again. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Germans_who_resisted_Nazism#:~:text=Names%20are%20periodically%20added%2C%20but,in%20a%20number%20of%20ways.
Although it is ww1 there was a giant wooden statue of Hindenburg in Berlin during the great war. It was one of the Nagel männer, used as crowdfunding for the war, in which people paid to hammer a nail into it.
There are halls of honour at German military academies with busts of prominent military leaders and select officers. There recently was a debate on whether one of Langsdorff (commander pocket battleship Graf Spee) should be included. A critical point was, whether him NOT sacrificing his ship and crew for a futile 'heroic last stand' should qualify or disqualify him (i.e. could his behaviour serve as inspiration or should it be condemned). As for Stalin, I am aware of Stalin heads the size of usual statues being not uncommon. I at least get the impression that in the GDR Marx/Engels (as a pair) and Lenin (single) were typically honored with full statues while other 'heroes' were mainly represented as heads (full plastic or relief) in both natural and over-size.
Regarding Von Paulus, had he been “liberated” or repatriated, he would have faced court martial and execution for his handling of the surrender of Stalingrad.
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There are some memorials to the officers involved in the Stauffenberg assassination attempt and for Vienna specifically for the group who showed the Soviets the back door route into Vienna. But these are usually general memorials or streets/squares named after them rather than statues of an individual.
@@philipbossy4834 australia started in the boer war. Also was in britain to a large extent and nz presumably canada. Actually started in britain, part of the democratic movement at the turn of the century. Can not find the link to it anymore as seem to have lost my paper on it.
@@peterlawler2201 No need to find a source, it's just that you said "we had a policy... " without stating which country you are talking about. Could have been any country in the world.
There is a statue of Helmuth von Moltke the Elder, the victor of the 2nd Schleswig-Holstein, Austro-Prussian and Franco-Prussian Wars of the 1860s-1870s in the Tiergarten, Berlin. It's not really triumphant, and rather fits der große Schweige. The statute to Sir Arthur Harris was incredibly controversial and was erected until 1992.
10:02 In Lenin's case he was deemed as "the founder of their modern nation from the ruins of the old Russian Empire", and for Stalin, well, most were in conmemoration of the victory in WW2 as he was both Prime Minister and Minister of War at the time, so he was highly regarded even though what he did was mostly "let his subordinates act", and most of the stuff was designed and implemented by the staff (STAVKA). Also, Lenin was held in high regard after his death.
In Lithuania there is famous park with private collection of comunist era monuments - its called Park Grutas. I suggest to contact the owner, they possibly can know smth about when was the biggest trend for stalins monument. Also - in many occasions Hitler presented himself as modest person For example he weared simple uniform (in comparison to Duces, Goerings or Himmlers) Same for his food diet, there are memoirs of him visiting front lines and eating landser food. What I mean is making a monument for him was not his style. Disney fans must be disapointed, but unfortunatelly, crazy maniac rullers does not act like movie villains. One more "also" - in my city, which was a part of germany twice, during ocupation germans moved to main square Friderick Grosse statue. They definetely prefered to glorify generals who passed away.
There was a monument to Reinhard Heydrich, also some streets (RH-Ufer) named after him in Prague after his death, so maybe there was something similar in Germany? Though he was more a NS-party and police/security man, but technically a general (and a "martyr")
@@olliefoxx7165 Of course not, Prague was under German occupation during the war (Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia), so after the liberation everything was removed and renamed - this time in many cases after the Soviet generals...
Maybe as i sudied Art History, i can give some insights. First comes to mind: Who is ordening the statues and with what goal/function. Also statues are traditionally erected after death of the relevant person or after a major (historical) event. First example, Fürst von Bismarck: The unification of Germany was not a given from 1871 till 1919. To name one, the most powerful southern german monarchy Bavaria (catholic) was not keen to be subject of a protestant Prussia. Against the wish of Wilhelm I, Von Bismarck made a consession. Wilhelm I became Deutsche Kaiser not Kaiser von Deutschland, which is a big difference. Another thing is the geman states still had their own armies and army budgets, even though the uppercommand was Prussian. The high amount of statues of Von Bismarck and Wilhelm I, were erected to symbolise the new unity. Sort of corner stone. One of the set goals of Kaiser Wilhelm II was this consolidation (It was in his period that the statues were erected, also in Collection Doorn there are a large amount of models of these statues). If Wilhelm II would have died in before the Great War, his son the new kaiser would have likely ordered statues of his father. In general this is in line with the statues like Friedrich Wilhelm II, Von Scharnhorst and Blücher. As far i'm aware there are only few statues of Von Molkte the Elder and none of Von Roon. But there were a lot of photo's produced, which is a much cheaper way of mystifying persons. And again; what is the goal or function, what do you want to achive and what are you're resources. For example statues made of brons were very expensive. But this is only Prussia. If i remember correctly there were 25 states (with different cultures) total in the Kaiserreich. Beside monarchy and socialism have very different ways of state building. It would make sense to memorise the entire army at Stalingrad rather then or only the General. It is collective. I agree its more faceless. It gets rather complex to define in which tradition National socialist Germany continued or rather which ones they misused. (Apologies for any mis spelling. I'm Dyslectic and it is not because of lack of effort).
What a unique perspective. I've never thought of the actual process behind the commission of monuments or the celebration of moments/heroes. It's a fascinating facet of a seldom thought of aspect of war.
As far as I remember the discussion was between two titles: Kaiser von Deutschland Kaiser der Deutschen The first title was prefered by Wilhelm but rejected by Bismarck because it was the old title of the Habsburg Emperors and Austria would not have accepted it. It was also an afront against the other German princes. Kaiser der Deutschen (Emperor of the Germans) was rejected by Wilhelm because it sounded like the title was given to him by the German people. He thought himself as an emperor by Gods grace and not by the people. His brother Friedrich Wilhelm IV. had rejected the crown in 1848 as "crown from the gutters". The situation remained unsolved even at the day of the proclamation so Friedrich von Baden proclaimed Wilhelm I. as "Deutscher Kaiser"
About the statues of Lenin and Stalin in the Soviet Union, Marxism-Leninism was the major ideology which pretty much survived until the 1990s, so you would find monuments or busts of Lenin in even small townships across the SU, usually in a park near the so-called "House of Culture" (also omnipresent in every small town). In bigger cities, you could usually find statues of Marx, and also of Stalin, but Stalinism fell out, so no new ones were built, of course, existing ones were not removed.
I don't think any combatant nation in WW2 really built statues during the conflict. It's the sort of thing you do afterward if your side won. And as you point out, the fashion in the UK post-war tended towards honouring the 'everyman' rather than individuals.
I think the reason for the amount of statues in the Soviet Union came down to that the country was huge. Having common symbols symbols around the country must have been useful to keep a common identety. Also the whole switch from Russian Empire to the Soviet Union they needed to switch the identety from church and monarc, to the leseres of the Soviet Union
I have a question but im not a patreon, maybe one of you can ask them: when watched Worldwar2 (the channel which follows the war week by week) they said that the udssr wanted to join the axis around december 1940 to 1941 january but they didnt received an answer, now my question: what was the aim of the ussr (did they want to support germany with more supplies, maybe even help them in force,...)and did germany really thought about accepting this? What would it have changed? I wasnt able to find anything on my own and if someone could ask them via patreon i would be very grateful, thank you(:
I read some books about nazi-architecture (which wasn`t as monolithic as most people think) and the ideology behind it, as well about the ideological and religious aspects of the "Führerkult". Especially after he rose to power Hitler was not too happy over ther use of his portrait (on porcelain and stuff) and heavily tried to regulate it ("Recht am eigenen Bild" ;) )...and later it became even more religious, hence his ever diminishing public appearance. In the public eye he should not age anymore but become more like an idea that orbes the (of course German) world (Hitler was obsessed with his age anyway, which influenced a lot of his decisions), more like a "Jesus" than a "Lenin". And in a way it worked when you think of the propaganda of that time when often people referred to him in a vague third person - from a "The Führer firmly believes" to a "We believe in the Führer" and ultimately to "Wenn das der Führer wüsste" - ja, da sei Gott vor... :D Sorry, I digress (brown rice, anyone? ;P ) I remember reading in several books that there was a party guidline not to build Hitler-statues, because it would be too worldly and demeaning when people would linger around it, birds would...you know. And I guess (!) it would be too much of a target for "propaganda-delicts" and such... And if there are no statues for Hitler you can`t build a statue for his cronies, of course... Just my two cents, back to the studio... ;) P.S.: Great channel, good work, glorious accent!
One could also mention the tradition of naming the units after renowned heroes and commanders - many from the middle ages (Heer), but some also from ww2 itself - notably Luftwaffe - Mölders, Oessau, Nowotny, Udet..., even Himmler and Göring had divisions named after them. There are many ways to commemorate person - maybe this was seen as the most appropriate one for a nation at war (monuments for peace time after the war is won) (I believe there were many memorials and names after the NS-party "heroes" from 20s and 30s, but that is a different topic - rather political history)
Are there any streets named after generals in Germany? I always thought there were no statues of German generals because well they lost (also because of some mistaken self-censorship).
@@Leon_der_Luftige Technically you're right, but why would you stop celebrating a given historical figure? I mean people usually get statues or streets named after them if the majority thinks they were great, good or at least above average. Why stop?
levski19 Because values change and when you go through history there are tonnes of characters we shouldn't have celebrated in the first place. But regimes had complete control over the press for a long time and they made murderous criminals look like heroes. But times have changed and people rethink history and more often than not they discover what pieces of shit they were told to celebrate a long time ago. Again, this isn't censorship. In the contrary, the truth is being researched and unveiled. And btw those people who used to celebrate certain figures mostly dead or aren't accepted in society anymore. And that's absolutely fine. People have no clue what censorship is. Nothing against you but I've seen this argument way too often. We don't use statues to remember history, that's what books and documents are for. And those are open for everyone to read. And if most people in a society don't want to glorify certain people anymore why keep their statues around if their portrayed ideas and ideals simply aren't considered a good thing anymore?
@@Leon_der_Luftige Indeed you have a point. It's up to the people to decide who gets a statue or a street name, but also who gets to keep his. Things in my country are not unlike things in Germany or aanywhere else in the world. Some statues were torn down and some streets were renamed as time goes by. Still i think that statues in general will remain for the foreseeable future. People need their idols.
levski19 Unfortunately it wasn't the people who decided who should be glorified in the past. They always were told by propaganda. ...Of course statues are ok. If the people they are dedicated to are researched and truly worthy. People of art or great bravery in a selfless fashion for a higher good cause surely qualify for that. If it has to be someone from the many wars Someone like the German fighter pilot who spared a B17 in WW2 against his orders facing potentially a death sentence if being seen doing so. He realised when there is no need for more bloodshed in war and kept his mind intact despite finding himself in a war with seemingly no rules, or honour. Or dedicate a memorial to the many nurses and doctors in the World Wars, especially WW1 who truly worked their asses of and faced horrible injuries each and every day. Having to perform amputations without anaesthesia with saws still red with blood from the guy 1min ago. Those people should be honoured. not the ones responsible for the injured in the first place. There are for example a couple worthy german austronauts and cosmonauts from east and west who could be awarded with a statue post mortem. A) to celebrate german unity and B) to honour those good people who did extraordinary things. There are plenty of options, no need to glorify dodgy war criminals or anyone shady / disputed.
There could be a cultural difference between Germany/North Europe and the USA at least. Even today, Trump used the fact that the Ambassador in Ukraine had not put up a picture of him in the Embassy against her (it was delayed in the USA and given to her late). Imagine a present-day North European leader doing the same. He/she would be laughed at so hard!
"Chickenhawk" ~ Robert Mason robertcmason.com/chickenhawk.html Maybe it's an American and British thing to recount history from the microcosm of the individual experience.
Maybe it has something to do with the Protestant religion of much of Germany vs the Orthodox religion of Russians. They mentioned that statues of generals from centuries ago were more common. Comparing Austria and Germany on this would be a decent test since they’re pretty much the same people but Austria is more catholic
About Memorial, there is Konrad von Hotzendorf street in Graz, Austria. Therefor I will ask for a Maurice Gamelin street in my home town in France. Anybody to support me?
Stalin explained by himself the cult of personality to one of the foreign journalists, he said that first part of it is that people see real improvements in their lives and they want to personalize it in his figure, and the second reason is that, as you said, officials wanted to show their loyalty this way (similar how today in Russia officials put Putin's portraits on the wall in their cabinets). I don't know of any case where Stalin insisted himself on building a monument of his name or renaming a city to his name, it was always from lower levels (and really highly supported by majority of people). Also the difference to German political system was that in Soviet Union Stalin had no official position as "leader of nation" etc. While he had real power and was often portraited by mass media as leader of Soviet people (and he was accepted as paternalistic figure by majority of people since Russia was still a very traditional agricultural country at that time, being a monarchy less than a generation before), formally he was elected as ruler of party (not ruler of the state and not commander of the army, during peace time), and in theory he could be always removed from that position by the Congress of Soviets.
@@polentusmax6100 or may not, because purges were requested by regional party organisations (including Khrushchev, the main anti-stalinist after 1953), also NKVD falsified a few political processes, trying to create an impression that there is an anti government mass organization. So the purges subject in my view is much more complex than cold war propaganda cliche "evil Stalin wanted to kill everyone".
@@AlexanderSeven maybe that is the reason, but i think i was because stalin was fron caucasus, as beria, they held power in moscow, so to do that some measures was necessary. I dont think is was because comunism or marxism. And yes, i believe some important/skilled people were killed.
Guys, a memorial to VON STAUFFENBURG aka Tom Cruise (bad joke i know! AND i believe ,Beck (part of the July plotters) in present Berlin (Bendlerblock office)
Did Paulus decide to live in East Germany because he was not welcome in W.G.? Or? Is his personal correspondence to other officers post war much different then his official memoires?
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized Canaris was a true hero. He got rid of Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknect and plotted, sadly unsuccessfully, to get rid of Hitler. He saved Germany from Communism and tried but failed to save it from Hitler.
Hm, we have a few statues in Hannover, but they are all from pre-WW1. Very prominently one right in front of the Hannover Central Station, of King Ernst-August I. of Hannover. It's a well like meeting point for people planning to go partying in the city. You meet under the Schwanz, tail, of the horse. Always good for a little laugh, due to Schwanz also having the colloquial meaning dick in German. ;)
As every German general was effectively fighting for the Nazi cause any monument would be politically inappropriate. Especially for foreign relations. Every public image of Hitler would have been destroyed by the occupying forces. The Nazis did put up a monument/statue to Horst Wessel and a few others.
Statues are political, not military. Since Germany was more an army with a country instead of the other way around, there's less need for statues. The USSR was all about propaganda, so statues abounded.
if you were rommel and responsible for the log term defence of the german reich, would you also have built/further reinforced the atlantic wall? in my opinion it seems like such an impossible task, the germans should never have diverted such vast amounts of resources and manpower to that. instead, they could have used that to build a better road net to be able to react quicker once the allies are indeed attacking somewhere. also they should have built many more defences along rivers and so on, since they couldnt really use any of that in france in our timeline.
I remember a Soviet soldier remembering taking Paulus prisoner. If we take his word, he was amazing by the "unbroken spirit" of Paulus and his unshaken aristocratic manners.
Cold War and the Soviet Union is pretty hard to really summarise. The Soviet Union post Stalin, not just under Khrushchev, certainly had problems with Stalin and his legacy. You had periods of quite anti-Stalin propaganda, drives. Khrushchev certainly had a very strong anti-Stalin, destalinisation agenda. So I think the statues in question are of a later perhaps, I want to say characters like Brezhnez and Andropov had a strong pro-Stalin attitude, attraction, promotion of the cult of personality. I'm pretty sure I'm wrong on at least one of those names in regards to Stalin. I'd wager considering the extreme anti Stalin drive following his death, any statues of Stalin are much later productions, 1965 at the absolute earliest and definitely later. Without being in Russia or having access to any sources, I'd take everything I just said with a healthy dose of Jingles branded salt.
After Khrushchev's anti-Stalin campaign, all Stalin statues were removed. I would say Brezhnev and Andropov were not pro-Stalin, they were more like not straight anti-Stalin as Khrushchev. So now we have no Stalin's monuments in public places, except his bust on his grave on Red Square. Also all streets named after Stalin were renamed during Khrushchev's time. In my city Stalin's street was renamed to Rossiyskaya street in 1961. We stiil have Lenin statues in nearly every city, and main streets named after Lenin etc.
@@AlexanderSeven You know way better than me. You lived it. I wouldn't mind asking you a few questions, if you don't mind. I don't seem to recall Stalin.... I was under the impression that while Stalin did cultivate a cult of personality around himself. Especially post WW2. From memory he had work done to doctor photographs, early Soviet history so that he appeared to be as important as Lenin, there from the get go. I didn't expect that to be that focused on statues. It was everything that could be credited to Stalin, was credited to Stalin. Anyone who could disprove it, was exiled, removed, prevented from speaking out. Zhukov, as perhaps one example. I won't argue for a moment about Khrushchev having a very strong anti-Stalin bias, program, to the degree it may be tainting my impression of later premiers, Soviet heads of state.
@@LionofCaliban I didn't live during Stalin's time. Also this topic is exteremely complex for a quick discussion, maybe you need to find reliable books on post war Soviet Russia (I know Stephen Kotkin has some good books about Stalin in English, there are also good books in Russian). As far as I know, Zhukov was never convicted or repressed, but his political career after the war wasn't good. Not every competent general is competent in politics. Also as far as I know, Stalin wasn't really healthy after the war, this could also have consequences. What I know and what is well documented is that Stalin asked party to remove him from his position as the head of the party at least three times (some say maybe more, up to seven times) - in 1923, 1926 and in 1952, but they refused. So for me it doesn't look like a person maniacally wanting power, the situation is probably more complex.
@@AlexanderSeven I'll check out those books. Since I at best I only speak about three words of Russian, I'll stick to the English. As said, I was under the impression of. Stalin..... the name itself has a lot of baggage and assumption. Considering the purges of 35 through 37 odd from memory, I'd assume a political intent, a way of controlling the narrative to be present at a minimum. As for Zhukov, again, I'm under the impression there was a strong implied threat, speak up and get silenced. Insert the go to gulag meme here, basically. He was quite deliberately sidelined and out of the public view, awareness. As ever, I think we can agree and guarantee, the situation is and was quite complex and points of view on it, the facts of the time, can be quite hard to determine so many years after the fact.
@@LionofCaliban Stalin was known under this name since 1912, long before any purges, also any person involved in revolutionary activity should have nerves of steel - they all were hunted by police, held in prisons etc. I personally have the impression that cult of personality was used as a way of political organization of country consisted mostly of uneducated people with traditional paternalistic minds and no political culture (before the 1905 90% of people in Russia were not involved in any real political activity in any way, and even after the creation of parlament most people from lower classes had no influence on it anyway). At the end of 1950s, most people in Soviet Union had at least basic education, and the transformation from backward agricultural country to modern industrial society was mostly finished, so it was a time for political liberalisation and no more the need for a cult of personality. Still, we can see even today that some ex-Soviet parts which seems to still live in traditional culture (Turkmenistan) have a strong cult of personality for their leader. As for facts still not known well I have to agree unfortunately, it seems that some documents were lost during Stalin's time, later Khrushchev probably was cleaning archives to wash himself, later during Gorbachev's time there could be more manipulations iwth documents, and today many political archives of Stalin's time are still closed - we literally don't know all the details and reasons of purges because of that (for example, we know that Stalin started purges but we don't know if he was misinformed by NKVD about how things were going), and still cannot say how many of executed/convicted for political reasons people were innocent and how many of them were really involved in anti-government activity.
Few countries erect statues to generals after they lost, Napoleon is the obvious exception. Stalin erected statues to Lenin and himself, anyone else, even the dead was to much of a threat. I think the prussian officer class saw leadership as their collective duty, study and hard work could achieve success rather than personal qualities.
@@Matt_The_Hugenot For example here: de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reiterstandbild_Friedrichs_des_Gro%C3%9Fen#/media/Datei:Berlin_UdL_monument_asv2018-05.jpg Friedrich is surrounded by 74 of his generals and other important persons. Wilhelm II. wanted Statues all over Berlin. Many have been destroyed during the war and even more by the DDR but many are still stored somewhere and some have been restored like Scharnhorst and Bülow near the Neue Wache.
Well thanks to RUclips deleting my subscription I now have a full evening full of military history to catch up to. And I was wondering if you stopped uploading here. Thx RUclips.....
Communism is Europe's best chance - Friedrich Paulus He refused the breakout and negotiated with the Soviets. He had a very specific window that he had to take advantage of: Manstein's push from the West.
#Stalingrad #Paulus rationally and voluntarily did start or accelerated the German defeat in Russia? Is that, he had any kind of agreement with the Russians, to surrender and sacrifice its army to them? It is well known, he did nothing to breakout or hold the city. He just stayed duck!
No, it is very sensible to call the sixth Army defenders, I mean, they defended the Lebensraum. No irony here, after all, this region was settled by the Volga Germans for a long time.
This convo does not touch upon the real issue, because, well, Austria and Germany aren't actually free and the winners have forced their version of history upon the losers. It's dangerous to actually divert from the party line. A country which denies its people even exist, never mind have collective interests, isn't going to be keen to put up statues for its military heroes from the past. It's a Stasi-state and the Merkel regime for a reason. That answers the question much better than this ignoring of the elephant in the room - which just proves everything I said. Few things are more cringeworthy than having to listen to Germans who efface themselves due to decades of programming and fear.
@@AlexanderSeven Stalin killed more Soviet citizens than he killed nazis. The nazis probably didn't kill as many Soviet citizens has he did. That kind of ruined his legacy of leader during the Great Patriotic War. So no statues for him.
Für alle die Deutsch sprechen bzw. hören, am 5. September findet die Achtung Panzer Konferenz 2020 in Ingolstadt statt, mit dabei sind Dr. Roman Töppel und Ralf Raths (Direktor vom Panzermuseum Munster) für mehr Infos siehe hier: www.startnext.com/CZb
Freu mich schon.
6:13 extremely “ Führerious”
Indeeeeeed
A comment on the "why were there so many Stalin (and Lenin) statues during his lifetime?" (as a Russian historian myself):
There were no Lenin statues while Lenin was in power - but as you might know, after Lenin's death (and even a bit before it, since Lenin spent the last year of his life incapacitated), there was a power struggle where Stalin was not the obvious successor, at least initially. That shouldn've been Trotsky - an internationalist who didn't care much for just building up a Russian Soviet state, or any nation-state, but wanted to export the revolution worldwide. Trotsky was the communist revolution's ideologue and theorist - every bit as important as Lenin (just consider what a huge impact on the course of history he had by negotiating the treaty of Brest-Litovsk, for example). Compared to Trotsky, Stalin was kind of a nobody in the key stages of the Russian revolution. It was only through ruthless political maneuvering that he got himself close to power - and part of that was through creating a more appealing image of national greatness for Soviet people than the rather obtuse, intellectualist Trotsky who disdained it. Stalin understood that this could be done by building up an image of Lenin as "father of the nation" - all the more convenient since Lenin was dead, so Stalin could portray his words in any way he wanted.
But why statues of himself?
Well, that was the second part of Stalin's plan. He made his claim to leadership and succession by portraying himself a) always next to Lenin; and b) as an equal of Lenin. So, if statues of Lenin helped create the image of Soviet power and a "father of the nation" - there had to be statues of Stalin right there as well to hammer home the idea that basically, "Lenin = Stalin = Soviet greatness = communism".
This is different from the German situation, and though Hitler did use Hindenburg in a way that was a bit similar - really, after 1933 Hitler had no real rivals or challengers. Stalin may have eliminated much of the opposition quickly - but he never quite fully shook off the fear of challengers, and even Trotsky managed to survive until 1940 before Stalin's assassins finally caught up to him in Mexico.
In short, Stalin created the cult of personality for Lenin in his bid for power - and then had to constantly equate himself to Lenin to keep that power. Hitler, by comparison, just didn't have rivals to contend with - and the nationalist mythology he was working with was much older and came more naturally to the Germans. Like the fascists in Italy, all Hitler really needed to do was keep recycling older myths and reviving older cults. Stalin's material was limited and he had to write his own "origin story"/"creation myth" (though would over time co-opt more and more older elements, successfully equating himself to Ivan the Terrible and Peter the Great later in his rule, too - hardly communist figures).
For a modern example - just take a look at North Korea and how statues are handled there. Although they are blood relatives - the Kims basically follow Stalin's playbook to ensure that "Korean national greatness = Kim Il Sung = Kim Jong Il = Kim Jong Un = Juche = communism". Without constantly hammering down this idea, they have little to stand on because as you correctly pointed out - the idea of a supreme personality or even national greatness is complete nonsense in classical communist doctrine. Only constant reinforcement through propaganda keeps it working. Therefore Stalin statues, and a lot of them - usually somewhere within sight of Lenin statues.
They were, however, absolutely a deliberate strategy by Stalin and not just put up by other people. Stalin, who in earlier life was a seminary student, understood the power of religious-like iconography and knew exactly what he was doing - the cult of personality he built is a far more literal cult in concept than people often realize. The statues of himself were fully his idea.
Thank you for this detailed analysis !!!
The idea that trotsky was the succsessor is so ahistorical it should have been thrown in the garbage as soon as it was invented, yet the thanks to the trots and to the CIA it persists.
It is just wrong on so many levels.
Oooh, I'm early. Keep up the good work chaps!
Hello
About Lenin and Stalin's statues in the Soviet Union. Statues to Lenin were mostly created after his deaths and they were continued to be built till the fall of the Soviet Union more or less. Stalin's statues became a thing since very early 1930 (so during Stalin's reign) but they stopped to make them soon after Stalin's deaths and most of them were removed from the public spaces by the end of 50s.
That is correct, but I should also mention that since Lenin was a hero of revolution and was portrayed as a martyr, who basicly sacrificed himself for the sake of communism (probably not literally, but he died just several years after the revolution, so he was a very convenient figure in that regard), so they made him a symbol of communism, and that is exactly what he represents on the statues - most Soviet cities (and even many towns) had statues of Lenin with his hand pointing, showing the path towards communism. Statues to Stalin were made during his reign as a token of loyalty and also as part of his cult of personality, wich was an important part of his system of total control. Also a popular motive - Lenin and Stalin together, where Lenin (being already mortally ill) symbolically passes his role as a leader to Stalin. Most of those statues were removed during destalinization after 1956, and actually there was no reabilitation for Stalin during Brezhnev's time, as was suggested by Bismarck. Also some statues of Stalin were made in Russia and CIS countries during modern time. Also there were quite a number of statues of Soviet marshals (especially Zhukov) made after the war, and they are part of the picture of the Great Patriotic War wich Soviet ruling elite was projecting on soviet people.
Stalin actually opposed the cult of personality around him.
@@livinglifeform7974 Hahaha....
memorials for the general fallen but not one for a fallen general
You mean General Failure memorial?
sorry for the delay, YT had to approve the ads as usual and I was a bit late.
Military History not Visualized 10:50 in the movie “Enemy at the Gates” when the heroe sniper (don’t remember well his name) is received by Nikita at a propagandist conference at the apparently a Headquarters he, the heroe, is picked by Nikita and lead to a big paint of Stalin and says to him, to the heroe, something on the lines of “ You are the heroe, the spirit of this patriotic war. And you can’t fail, because he is watching you, he is watching us, he always watches.” When you said that I assumed that what they made in the movie wasn’t showing how blindly people followed Stalin but how scary he was.
For the Stalin and Lenin statues.... I went to the KGB(bar) in bratislava and they had a Lenin bistro so I took a selfie with it while wearing my cat person shirt with a tiger and panther. And then when I was in Budapest I went to the national museum and ran into a Stalin statue while wearing the same shirt.
So I got a picture with 2 soviet leaders while wearing a t-shirt with german tanks and now I am hoping to take one with every major soviet leader.
There is a Rommel monument in Heidenheim from 1961, one for GdI Karl Eibl (died in Stalingrad) in Krems from 1959, GO Alexander Löhr
had a plaque in a church in Vienna from 1955-2015 and in Oberschützen, Austria there is the Anschluss monument from 1938. Mostly monuments of persons are erected after the person died, because the initiators want to link themselves to the "Hero" and show continuity.
If you went into an American or British bookstore in the 80s, the war books would be high-level overviews about campaigns, equipment, units and battles. As the veterans began to pass away, authors attempted more to individualize the war away from broad brush strokes and so as observed, there have been more books on individual or unit stories. Any modern battle or campaign overview author (e.g. Ambrose, Rick Atkinson or Tom Holland) will include a lot of quotes from letters, interviews and diaries, from the senior commanders down to the soldiers, airmen, women who served non-combatant roles and even civilizans. To exclude these now would date the book and make it seem more like a wikipedia page. Based on your comments, it's doubtful there's a demand for this type of context & detail by German readers.
There is a Stauffenberg Statue at the Bendlerblock in Berlin.
yes, I actually was there in 2002 or 2003 during my internship on the 20th July. I am getting old.
There's a statue of a nude man named "der Widerstandskämpfer", but it's not a statue of Stauffenberg.
The statue that @@thomaswolf2896 speaks of's name translates to "The Resistance Fighter" (literally, The Withstanding-struggler). The German Resistance was larger than France's, if for no other reason that Germans had no 'Free Germany' to which to retreat. May God forbid this ever coming to pass again. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Germans_who_resisted_Nazism#:~:text=Names%20are%20periodically%20added%2C%20but,in%20a%20number%20of%20ways.
Although it is ww1 there was a giant wooden statue of Hindenburg in Berlin during the great war. It was one of the Nagel männer, used as crowdfunding for the war, in which people paid to hammer a nail into it.
There are halls of honour at German military academies with busts of prominent military leaders and select officers. There recently was a debate on whether one of Langsdorff (commander pocket battleship Graf Spee) should be included. A critical point was, whether him NOT sacrificing his ship and crew for a futile 'heroic last stand' should qualify or disqualify him (i.e. could his behaviour serve as inspiration or should it be condemned).
As for Stalin, I am aware of Stalin heads the size of usual statues being not uncommon. I at least get the impression that in the GDR Marx/Engels (as a pair) and Lenin (single) were typically honored with full statues while other 'heroes' were mainly represented as heads (full plastic or relief) in both natural and over-size.
I really enjoy these collaborations between you two
Erwin Rommel is quite common. In Stuttgart is a 'Erwin Rommel Plätzle' - but not a statue, it think.
Regarding Von Paulus, had he been “liberated” or repatriated, he would have faced court martial and execution for his handling of the surrender of Stalingrad.
Dear Manstein, can I break out now? Love, Paulus
--Actual letter found by Manstein's widow.
there is no von he is not a noble
probably why he was liked by hitler in the first place
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We had a policy since ww1 that a general statue to all the fallen rather than individuals. The democratization of death
There are some memorials to the officers involved in the Stauffenberg assassination attempt and for Vienna specifically for the group who showed the Soviets the back door route into Vienna. But these are usually general memorials or streets/squares named after them rather than statues of an individual.
Who is "we" ?
@@philipbossy4834 australia started in the boer war. Also was in britain to a large extent and nz presumably canada. Actually started in britain, part of the democratic movement at the turn of the century. Can not find the link to it anymore as seem to have lost my paper on it.
@@philipbossy4834 Paper was anzac day. o well copies of it can be found in the main hqs of the state branches of the rsl.
@@peterlawler2201 No need to find a source, it's just that you said "we had a policy... " without stating which country you are talking about. Could have been any country in the world.
There is a statue of Helmuth von Moltke the Elder, the victor of the 2nd Schleswig-Holstein, Austro-Prussian and Franco-Prussian Wars of the 1860s-1870s in the Tiergarten, Berlin. It's not really triumphant, and rather fits der große Schweige.
The statute to Sir Arthur Harris was incredibly controversial and was erected until 1992.
10:02 In Lenin's case he was deemed as "the founder of their modern nation from the ruins of the old Russian Empire", and for Stalin, well, most were in conmemoration of the victory in WW2 as he was both Prime Minister and Minister of War at the time, so he was highly regarded even though what he did was mostly "let his subordinates act", and most of the stuff was designed and implemented by the staff (STAVKA).
Also, Lenin was held in high regard after his death.
BS. Stalin's statues and his cult of personality started in 1930. Long before the WWII>
In Lithuania there is famous park with private collection of comunist era monuments - its called Park Grutas. I suggest to contact the owner, they possibly can know smth about when was the biggest trend for stalins monument.
Also - in many occasions Hitler presented himself as modest person For example he weared simple uniform (in comparison to Duces, Goerings or Himmlers) Same for his food diet, there are memoirs of him visiting front lines and eating landser food. What I mean is making a monument for him was not his style. Disney fans must be disapointed, but unfortunatelly, crazy maniac rullers does not act like movie villains.
One more "also" - in my city, which was a part of germany twice, during ocupation germans moved to main square Friderick Grosse statue. They definetely prefered to glorify generals who passed away.
It’s worth remembering that Hitler was a veteran of the Great War so was a soldier and had many of those mindsets
People applaud sacrifice, but rarely make statues or monuments, unless it has serious political capital
There was a monument to Reinhard Heydrich, also some streets (RH-Ufer) named after him in Prague after his death, so maybe there was something similar in Germany? Though he was more a NS-party and police/security man, but technically a general (and a "martyr")
I assume it's long gone. Does the street still have his name?
@@olliefoxx7165 Of course not, Prague was under German occupation during the war (Protectorate Bohemia and Moravia), so after the liberation everything was removed and renamed - this time in many cases after the Soviet generals...
Virtually every city had a "Hitlerstraße" but those were all renamed after the war. In my hometown the Hitlerstraße was renamed to Bismarckstraße.
Fuck the Bismarck that shit killed my uncle... should have kept it to hitler street
I might be mistaken but I was under the impression that awesome August von Mackensen had a statue.
I'm new to this channel. You have original content with thoght provoking material. Lots of smart posts in the comment section. Subbed.
North Korea certainly seems to have plenty of statues of the Kim family.
There is definitely a Stalin statue in Gori, Georgia.
Maybe as i sudied Art History, i can give some insights. First comes to mind: Who is ordening the statues and with what goal/function. Also statues are traditionally erected after death of the relevant person or after a major (historical) event.
First example, Fürst von Bismarck: The unification of Germany was not a given from 1871 till 1919. To name one, the most powerful southern german monarchy Bavaria (catholic) was not keen to be subject of a protestant Prussia. Against the wish of Wilhelm I, Von Bismarck made a consession. Wilhelm I became Deutsche Kaiser not Kaiser von Deutschland, which is a big difference. Another thing is the geman states still had their own armies and army budgets, even though the uppercommand was Prussian. The high amount of statues of Von Bismarck and Wilhelm I, were erected to symbolise the new unity. Sort of corner stone. One of the set goals of Kaiser Wilhelm II was this consolidation (It was in his period that the statues were erected, also in Collection Doorn there are a large amount of models of these statues). If Wilhelm II would have died in before the Great War, his son the new kaiser would have likely ordered statues of his father. In general this is in line with the statues like Friedrich Wilhelm II, Von Scharnhorst and Blücher. As far i'm aware there are only few statues of Von Molkte the Elder and none of Von Roon. But there were a lot of photo's produced, which is a much cheaper way of mystifying persons. And again; what is the goal or function, what do you want to achive and what are you're resources. For example statues made of brons were very expensive.
But this is only Prussia. If i remember correctly there were 25 states (with different cultures) total in the Kaiserreich. Beside monarchy and socialism have very different ways of state building. It would make sense to memorise the entire army at Stalingrad rather then or only the General. It is collective. I agree its more faceless.
It gets rather complex to define in which tradition National socialist Germany continued or rather which ones they misused.
(Apologies for any mis spelling. I'm Dyslectic and it is not because of lack of effort).
What a unique perspective. I've never thought of the actual process behind the commission of monuments or the celebration of moments/heroes. It's a fascinating facet of a seldom thought of aspect of war.
Outstanding
As far as I remember the discussion was between two titles:
Kaiser von Deutschland
Kaiser der Deutschen
The first title was prefered by Wilhelm but rejected by Bismarck because it was the old title of the Habsburg Emperors and Austria would not have accepted it. It was also an afront against the other German princes.
Kaiser der Deutschen (Emperor of the Germans) was rejected by Wilhelm because it sounded like the title was given to him by the German people. He thought himself as an emperor by Gods grace and not by the people. His brother Friedrich Wilhelm IV. had rejected the crown in 1848 as "crown from the gutters".
The situation remained unsolved even at the day of the proclamation so Friedrich von Baden proclaimed Wilhelm I. as "Deutscher Kaiser"
About the statues of Lenin and Stalin in the Soviet Union, Marxism-Leninism was the major ideology which pretty much survived until the 1990s, so you would find monuments or busts of Lenin in even small townships across the SU, usually in a park near the so-called "House of Culture" (also omnipresent in every small town). In bigger cities, you could usually find statues of Marx, and also of Stalin, but Stalinism fell out, so no new ones were built, of course, existing ones were not removed.
During wartime could they afford the resources to build statues when the metal was needed elsewhere?
They could still use concrete or other cheaper material. Point taken though, scarcity would hinder production.
I don't think any combatant nation in WW2 really built statues during the conflict. It's the sort of thing you do afterward if your side won. And as you point out, the fashion in the UK post-war tended towards honouring the 'everyman' rather than individuals.
I think the reason for the amount of statues in the Soviet Union came down to that the country was huge. Having common symbols symbols around the country must have been useful to keep a common identety. Also the whole switch from Russian Empire to the Soviet Union they needed to switch the identety from church and monarc, to the leseres of the Soviet Union
We have statue of Lenin in nearly every city even today, and main street is often called Lenin street.
@@AlexanderSeven And Lenin is always showing the way! :)
I have a question but im not a patreon, maybe one of you can ask them: when watched Worldwar2 (the channel which follows the war week by week) they said that the udssr wanted to join the axis around december 1940 to 1941 january but they didnt received an answer, now my question: what was the aim of the ussr (did they want to support germany with more supplies, maybe even help them in force,...)and did germany really thought about accepting this? What would it have changed? I wasnt able to find anything on my own and if someone could ask them via patreon i would be very grateful, thank you(:
i think it's obvious the conquerers wouldn't allow monuments that honor the wehrmacht and tore down the existing ones
I read some books about nazi-architecture (which wasn`t as monolithic as most people think) and the ideology behind it, as well about the ideological and religious aspects of the "Führerkult". Especially after he rose to power Hitler was not too happy over ther use of his portrait (on porcelain and stuff) and heavily tried to regulate it ("Recht am eigenen Bild" ;) )...and later it became even more religious, hence his ever diminishing public appearance. In the public eye he should not age anymore but become more like an idea that orbes the (of course German) world (Hitler was obsessed with his age anyway, which influenced a lot of his decisions), more like a "Jesus" than a "Lenin". And in a way it worked when you think of the propaganda of that time when often people referred to him in a vague third person - from a "The Führer firmly believes" to a "We believe in the Führer" and ultimately to "Wenn das der Führer wüsste" - ja, da sei Gott vor... :D Sorry, I digress (brown rice, anyone? ;P ) I remember reading in several books that there was a party guidline not to build Hitler-statues, because it would be too worldly and demeaning when people would linger around it, birds would...you know. And I guess (!) it would be too much of a target for "propaganda-delicts" and such... And if there are no statues for Hitler you can`t build a statue for his cronies, of course... Just my two cents, back to the studio... ;) P.S.: Great channel, good work, glorious accent!
My grandfather was with 44th sturm company. He came back missing an eye, ear, and four fingers on his right hand.
there are more then one barracks who named rommel i think there are 3
One could also mention the tradition of naming the units after renowned heroes and commanders - many from the middle ages (Heer), but some also from ww2 itself - notably Luftwaffe - Mölders, Oessau, Nowotny, Udet..., even Himmler and Göring had divisions named after them.
There are many ways to commemorate person - maybe this was seen as the most appropriate one for a nation at war (monuments for peace time after the war is won)
(I believe there were many memorials and names after the NS-party "heroes" from 20s and 30s, but that is a different topic - rather political history)
Paulus certainly was hailed as a hero initially, I remeber seing a propaganda painting portraying his purported last stand in one history book.
Are there any streets named after generals in Germany? I always thought there were no statues of German generals because well they lost (also because of some mistaken self-censorship).
Yes, there are a few.
It's not censorship to simply decide not to celebrate a historical figure anymore btw.
@@Leon_der_Luftige Technically you're right, but why would you stop celebrating a given historical figure? I mean people usually get statues or streets named after them if the majority thinks they were great, good or at least above average. Why stop?
levski19 Because values change and when you go through history there are tonnes of characters we shouldn't have celebrated in the first place. But regimes had complete control over the press for a long time and they made murderous criminals look like heroes.
But times have changed and people rethink history and more often than not they discover what pieces of shit they were told to celebrate a long time ago.
Again, this isn't censorship. In the contrary, the truth is being researched and unveiled.
And btw those people who used to celebrate certain figures mostly dead or aren't accepted in society anymore. And that's absolutely fine.
People have no clue what censorship is. Nothing against you but I've seen this argument way too often.
We don't use statues to remember history, that's what books and documents are for. And those are open for everyone to read.
And if most people in a society don't want to glorify certain people anymore why keep their statues around if their portrayed ideas and ideals simply aren't considered a good thing anymore?
@@Leon_der_Luftige Indeed you have a point. It's up to the people to decide who gets a statue or a street name, but also who gets to keep his. Things in my country are not unlike things in Germany or aanywhere else in the world. Some statues were torn down and some streets were renamed as time goes by.
Still i think that statues in general will remain for the foreseeable future. People need their idols.
levski19 Unfortunately it wasn't the people who decided who should be glorified in the past. They always were told by propaganda.
...Of course statues are ok. If the people they are dedicated to are researched and truly worthy.
People of art or great bravery in a selfless fashion for a higher good cause surely qualify for that.
If it has to be someone from the many wars
Someone like the German fighter pilot who spared a B17 in WW2 against his orders facing potentially a death sentence if being seen doing so.
He realised when there is no need for more bloodshed in war and kept his mind intact despite finding himself in a war with seemingly no rules, or honour.
Or dedicate a memorial to the many nurses and doctors in the World Wars, especially WW1 who truly worked their asses of and faced horrible injuries each and every day. Having to perform amputations without anaesthesia with saws still red with blood from the guy 1min ago. Those people should be honoured. not the ones responsible for the injured in the first place.
There are for example a couple worthy german austronauts and cosmonauts from east and west who could be awarded with a statue post mortem. A) to celebrate german unity and B) to honour those good people who did extraordinary things.
There are plenty of options, no need to glorify dodgy war criminals or anyone shady / disputed.
There could be a cultural difference between Germany/North Europe and the USA at least. Even today, Trump used the fact that the Ambassador in Ukraine had not put up a picture of him in the Embassy against her (it was delayed in the USA and given to her late). Imagine a present-day North European leader doing the same. He/she would be laughed at so hard!
A Haupstman that looked a lot like Bismarck shot my father during the Bluge.😊
"Chickenhawk" ~ Robert Mason
robertcmason.com/chickenhawk.html
Maybe it's an American and British thing to recount history from the microcosm of the individual experience.
Really interesting
Could it be something like" we look at war thru the eyes of the soldier, you look at it thru the generals eyes."
It's a cultural thing. Germans saw statues of Hitler as tacky and silly, while Soviet people saw nothing wrong with statues of Lenin and Shtalin
Maybe it has something to do with the Protestant religion of much of Germany vs the Orthodox religion of Russians. They mentioned that statues of generals from centuries ago were more common. Comparing Austria and Germany on this would be a decent test since they’re pretty much the same people but Austria is more catholic
@@mrniceguy7168 Wilhelm II was head of the protestant church and still he literally plastered all of Berlin with statues of his ancestors.
About Memorial, there is Konrad von Hotzendorf street in Graz, Austria. Therefor I will ask for a Maurice Gamelin street in my home town in France. Anybody to support me?
They named three ships after Rommel, Luetjens, and Moelders.
yeah, I knew that one, since I talked with an officer about this a while ago.
Requirement: dead and Army/Kriegsmarine/Luftwaffe
There is a huge statue of marshal Zhukov mounted on a horse in moscow, and busts and monuments everywhere else on the ex Soviet Union.
Not that huge. Medium size.
Paulus ein Held? Gott bewahre.
Stalin explained by himself the cult of personality to one of the foreign journalists, he said that first part of it is that people see real improvements in their lives and they want to personalize it in his figure, and the second reason is that, as you said, officials wanted to show their loyalty this way (similar how today in Russia officials put Putin's portraits on the wall in their cabinets). I don't know of any case where Stalin insisted himself on building a monument of his name or renaming a city to his name, it was always from lower levels (and really highly supported by majority of people).
Also the difference to German political system was that in Soviet Union Stalin had no official position as "leader of nation" etc. While he had real power and was often portraited by mass media as leader of Soviet people (and he was accepted as paternalistic figure by majority of people since Russia was still a very traditional agricultural country at that time, being a monarchy less than a generation before), formally he was elected as ruler of party (not ruler of the state and not commander of the army, during peace time), and in theory he could be always removed from that position by the Congress of Soviets.
"...in theory stalin could be removed by the congress of soviets."
That may explain the purges
@@polentusmax6100 or may not, because purges were requested by regional party organisations (including Khrushchev, the main anti-stalinist after 1953), also NKVD falsified a few political processes, trying to create an impression that there is an anti government mass organization. So the purges subject in my view is much more complex than cold war propaganda cliche "evil Stalin wanted to kill everyone".
@@AlexanderSeven maybe that is the reason, but i think i was because stalin was fron caucasus, as beria, they held power in moscow, so to do that some measures was necessary. I dont think is was because comunism or marxism. And yes, i believe some important/skilled people were killed.
Was there not a statue of Horst Wessel?
Guys, a memorial to VON STAUFFENBURG aka Tom Cruise (bad joke i know! AND i believe ,Beck (part of the July plotters) in present Berlin (Bendlerblock office)
No, its a generic statue to all resistance members.
@@comsubpac I thought there was some memorial to Beck on the site he shot himself?
@@andysm1964 This? en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_Beck#/media/File:Site_of_Colonel_General_Ludwig_Beck's_suicide.jpg
That isn't a statue though.
Did Paulus decide to live in East Germany because he was not welcome in W.G.? Or? Is his personal correspondence to other officers post war much different then his official memoires?
I dont know it for sure but Adm. Wilhelm Canaris got some few streets named after him.
yeah, street names are quite common. Oster has also quite a few street named after him, I think he was a colonel in the Abwehr.
But these streets do not refer to the military role their namesakes played, but to their role in the resistance movement.
@@MilitaryHistoryNotVisualized Canaris was a true hero. He got rid of Rosa Luxemburg and Karl Liebknect and plotted, sadly unsuccessfully, to get rid of Hitler. He saved Germany from Communism and tried but failed to save it from Hitler.
When considering statues of communist leaders one should note that there are also plenty statues for Karl Marx and Friedrich Engels.
Hm, we have a few statues in Hannover, but they are all from pre-WW1. Very prominently one right in front of the Hannover Central Station, of King Ernst-August I. of Hannover. It's a well like meeting point for people planning to go partying in the city. You meet under the Schwanz, tail, of the horse. Always good for a little laugh, due to Schwanz also having the colloquial meaning dick in German. ;)
As every German general was effectively fighting for the Nazi cause any monument would be politically inappropriate. Especially for foreign relations. Every public image of Hitler would have been destroyed by the occupying forces. The Nazis did put up a monument/statue to Horst Wessel and a few others.
Statues are political, not military. Since Germany was more an army with a country instead of the other way around, there's less need for statues. The USSR was all about propaganda, so statues abounded.
if you were rommel and responsible for the log term defence of the german reich, would you also have built/further reinforced the atlantic wall?
in my opinion it seems like such an impossible task, the germans should never have diverted such vast amounts of resources and manpower to that. instead, they could have used that to build a better road net to be able to react quicker once the allies are indeed attacking somewhere. also they should have built many more defences along rivers and so on, since they couldnt really use any of that in france in our timeline.
Paulus was somewhat of a hero, or, at least a celebrity - in the Soviet Union ;)
Traitors love traitors
I remember a Soviet soldier remembering taking Paulus prisoner. If we take his word, he was amazing by the "unbroken spirit" of Paulus and his unshaken aristocratic manners.
@@vasili1207 Indeed, but still even they didn't build him a statue. Who can condone such treachery?
Pretty sure the Nazis built a memorial for Reinhard Heydrich does he count?
adobo777 does it count if it was demolished?
Khrushchev seemed to think that Stalin created a cult of personality. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Cult_of_Personality_and_Its_Consequences
Krushchev hated it. Stalin really ruined the reputation and appeal of 'communism' even though USSR under stalin was not really communist
Maybe there would have been some statues if Germany would have won the either WWI or WW2.
Cold War and the Soviet Union is pretty hard to really summarise.
The Soviet Union post Stalin, not just under Khrushchev, certainly had problems with Stalin and his legacy.
You had periods of quite anti-Stalin propaganda, drives. Khrushchev certainly had a very strong anti-Stalin, destalinisation agenda. So I think the statues in question are of a later perhaps, I want to say characters like Brezhnez and Andropov had a strong pro-Stalin attitude, attraction, promotion of the cult of personality.
I'm pretty sure I'm wrong on at least one of those names in regards to Stalin.
I'd wager considering the extreme anti Stalin drive following his death, any statues of Stalin are much later productions, 1965 at the absolute earliest and definitely later. Without being in Russia or having access to any sources, I'd take everything I just said with a healthy dose of Jingles branded salt.
After Khrushchev's anti-Stalin campaign, all Stalin statues were removed. I would say Brezhnev and Andropov were not pro-Stalin, they were more like not straight anti-Stalin as Khrushchev. So now we have no Stalin's monuments in public places, except his bust on his grave on Red Square. Also all streets named after Stalin were renamed during Khrushchev's time. In my city Stalin's street was renamed to Rossiyskaya street in 1961.
We stiil have Lenin statues in nearly every city, and main streets named after Lenin etc.
@@AlexanderSeven You know way better than me. You lived it.
I wouldn't mind asking you a few questions, if you don't mind.
I don't seem to recall Stalin.... I was under the impression that while Stalin did cultivate a cult of personality around himself. Especially post WW2. From memory he had work done to doctor photographs, early Soviet history so that he appeared to be as important as Lenin, there from the get go. I didn't expect that to be that focused on statues. It was everything that could be credited to Stalin, was credited to Stalin. Anyone who could disprove it, was exiled, removed, prevented from speaking out. Zhukov, as perhaps one example.
I won't argue for a moment about Khrushchev having a very strong anti-Stalin bias, program, to the degree it may be tainting my impression of later premiers, Soviet heads of state.
@@LionofCaliban I didn't live during Stalin's time. Also this topic is exteremely complex for a quick discussion, maybe you need to find reliable books on post war Soviet Russia (I know Stephen Kotkin has some good books about Stalin in English, there are also good books in Russian).
As far as I know, Zhukov was never convicted or repressed, but his political career after the war wasn't good. Not every competent general is competent in politics. Also as far as I know, Stalin wasn't really healthy after the war, this could also have consequences.
What I know and what is well documented is that Stalin asked party to remove him from his position as the head of the party at least three times (some say maybe more, up to seven times) - in 1923, 1926 and in 1952, but they refused. So for me it doesn't look like a person maniacally wanting power, the situation is probably more complex.
@@AlexanderSeven I'll check out those books.
Since I at best I only speak about three words of Russian, I'll stick to the English.
As said, I was under the impression of. Stalin..... the name itself has a lot of baggage and assumption. Considering the purges of 35 through 37 odd from memory, I'd assume a political intent, a way of controlling the narrative to be present at a minimum.
As for Zhukov, again, I'm under the impression there was a strong implied threat, speak up and get silenced. Insert the go to gulag meme here, basically. He was quite deliberately sidelined and out of the public view, awareness.
As ever, I think we can agree and guarantee, the situation is and was quite complex and points of view on it, the facts of the time, can be quite hard to determine so many years after the fact.
@@LionofCaliban Stalin was known under this name since 1912, long before any purges, also any person involved in revolutionary activity should have nerves of steel - they all were hunted by police, held in prisons etc.
I personally have the impression that cult of personality was used as a way of political organization of country consisted mostly of uneducated people with traditional paternalistic minds and no political culture (before the 1905 90% of people in Russia were not involved in any real political activity in any way, and even after the creation of parlament most people from lower classes had no influence on it anyway).
At the end of 1950s, most people in Soviet Union had at least basic education, and the transformation from backward agricultural country to modern industrial society was mostly finished, so it was a time for political liberalisation and no more the need for a cult of personality. Still, we can see even today that some ex-Soviet parts which seems to still live in traditional culture (Turkmenistan) have a strong cult of personality for their leader.
As for facts still not known well I have to agree unfortunately, it seems that some documents were lost during Stalin's time, later Khrushchev probably was cleaning archives to wash himself, later during Gorbachev's time there could be more manipulations iwth documents, and today many political archives of Stalin's time are still closed - we literally don't know all the details and reasons of purges because of that (for example, we know that Stalin started purges but we don't know if he was misinformed by NKVD about how things were going), and still cannot say how many of executed/convicted for political reasons people were innocent and how many of them were really involved in anti-government activity.
Few countries erect statues to generals after they lost, Napoleon is the obvious exception.
Stalin erected statues to Lenin and himself, anyone else, even the dead was to much of a threat.
I think the prussian officer class saw leadership as their collective duty, study and hard work could achieve success rather than personal qualities.
Germany was full of statues of prussian generals.
@@comsubpac Really? I'd been told otherwise. I'll have to revise my opinion.
@@Matt_The_Hugenot For example here:
de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reiterstandbild_Friedrichs_des_Gro%C3%9Fen#/media/Datei:Berlin_UdL_monument_asv2018-05.jpg
Friedrich is surrounded by 74 of his generals and other important persons. Wilhelm II. wanted Statues all over Berlin. Many have been destroyed during the war and even more by the DDR but many are still stored somewhere and some have been restored like Scharnhorst and Bülow near the Neue Wache.
The Bismarck and the Kriegsmarine
Paulus was a gutless coward. - Leon degrelle.
Degrelle was a traitor who should have hanged ,
A brave one but a traitor none the less.
How many statutes were made after WW2 period?
Well Romania certainly didn't help.
Well thanks to RUclips deleting my subscription I now have a full evening full of military history to catch up to.
And I was wondering if you stopped uploading here. Thx RUclips.....
Communism is Europe's best chance - Friedrich Paulus
He refused the breakout and negotiated with the Soviets. He had a very specific window that he had to take advantage of: Manstein's push from the West.
#Stalingrad #Paulus rationally and voluntarily did start or accelerated the German defeat in Russia?
Is that, he had any kind of agreement with the Russians, to surrender and sacrifice its army to them?
It is well known, he did nothing to breakout or hold the city. He just stayed duck!
No, it is very sensible to call the sixth Army defenders, I mean, they defended the Lebensraum. No irony here, after all, this region was settled by the Volga Germans for a long time.
This convo does not touch upon the real issue, because, well, Austria and Germany aren't actually free and the winners have forced their version of history upon the losers. It's dangerous to actually divert from the party line. A country which denies its people even exist, never mind have collective interests, isn't going to be keen to put up statues for its military heroes from the past. It's a Stasi-state and the Merkel regime for a reason. That answers the question much better than this ignoring of the elephant in the room - which just proves everything I said. Few things are more cringeworthy than having to listen to Germans who efface themselves due to decades of programming and fear.
Unfortunately, there are no Stalin's monuments in today's Russia (except on the Red Square where he was buried).
Unfortunately? He was a mass murderer for God's sake!
@@davidaitchison8875 yeah, he killed masses of nazis.
@@AlexanderSeven Stalin killed more Soviet citizens than he killed nazis. The nazis probably didn't kill as many Soviet citizens has he did. That kind of ruined his legacy of leader during the Great Patriotic War. So no statues for him.
@@philipbossy4834 "Stalin killed more Soviet citizens than he killed nazis." - you need to stop watching propaganda or whatever you are watching.
Alexander Seven Ever heard of the Holodomor and Great Purge? Even his “successful” programs like the five year plan and killed millions.